A (2:41)

I don't think we've actually, like, started the podcast yet, so maybe we should.

B (2:44)

Okay, let's Dive in. Let's dive in.

A (2:47)

In this time where we feel like we have to strive to like, deserve anything that we, we have to be really beautiful to deserve a man that thinks we're worthy, or we have to be really successful to have people respect us. You that we are born enough already. So many of us forget that. When did you first realize that you'd forgotten that truth? And when did you start to remember it?

B (3:18)

One of the things that I learned when I was writing my book and I kind of used as the impetus for some of the themes that we talked about in the book is that a girl's confidence peaks at age nine.

A (3:29)

Oh my gosh.

B (3:30)

Take that in. Like, you know, you think about all the things that we've done in our life.

A (3:34)

Wow, I'm a nine year old right now.

B (3:35)

Right. So protect that little girl's heart and mind and spirit. Because there is something from that stage forward where like, you think about all the amazing things that we've done in our lives and our careers that our little girl's self, our inner self would have been like.

A (3:50)

What?

B (3:50)

That's so amazing. But somehow we don't live in the celebration of those things. We don't necessarily even think we deserve some of those things. We downplay certain things, like when we think about who we were when we were younger, without any accolades, without any titles. We loved our lives, we loved who we were. We experienced everything in a full bodied way. We said what we had to say. There was a fullness that gets chipped away at. And so to answer your question about when did I realize, I think my first memory was probably around the age that my son is now. And I think about that a lot, by the way. I'm like, oh, first memories are being formed right now. The thing I just said to him might be the thing that he remembers as his first memory.

A (4:35)

It's terrifying and great all at the same time.

B (4:37)

Right. It's like no pressure.

A (4:39)

I know.

B (4:39)

But it does make me so mindful and so intentional about the way that I speak to him.

A (4:46)

Yeah.

B (4:46)

The way I respond to him, how I treat his questions as so important.

A (4:53)

Yeah.

B (4:54)

I remember my first memory was in preschool and it was this moment with magazines, which full circle moment comes later. Like becoming a magazine editor. I remember being in preschool and we were going through magazines, we were making collages of our families and I loved magazines, like lived for magazines and was flipping through, flipping through. And I was realizing as I was flipping and everyone else was already cutting that, like, no one looked like me. Or my family. And my dad's white, so there was, like, lots of white guys that I could have chosen, but I was like, okay. And there was this moment where I was like, okay, I'm just gonna choose to do what everyone else is doing. I'm just gonna pretend to be white. So I started cutting out white people. Imagine how deeply awkward that was. But yet none of them were black or people of color. Yeah, neither was anyone in my class. A teacher comes up to me, and they're, like, trying to guide me. They bring up the one black magazine and show me a girl who looks

A (5:58)

nothing like me or something.

B (6:01)

And then the girl doesn't even look like me. And she's like, what about her? You cut out her. And I just remember my whole body getting tense, freezing up. And I just ignored her because I didn't want to be different. I just thought, if I ignore her, she'll stop talking. She'll stop bringing awareness to the fact that I'm different than everyone here and maybe I don't belong. So I just ignored her, and I just made my white family. And it's something that in some ways sounds funny, but also like, it stuck with me the rest of my life. But here's the beauty. Yes, this is what the world told me. There was a lack of representation. And yes, I had feelings about it. And then I went home, and my mom saw this white paper family that I came home with. And my mom is a very strong black woman, proud black woman. And she was like, oh, no, girl. We're redoing this assignment. And she literally pulled my brother and me to the table and pulled all of these Ebony and Essence magazines onto the table. And she's like, we're gonna redo this assignment together. And she made me peel off the glued on white girl. Peel off that little white boy that was playing my brother. Peel off the white lady. That was my mom. And we went through the magazines, and then we found people that actually look like my family.

A (7:20)

Yeah.

B (7:21)

And then she let me keep the, like, men's warehouse version of my dad.

A (7:25)

It was like, that one's right.

B (7:27)

Yeah. But it's actually not right. That's what's funny about. My dad was, like, a carpent who would come home, like, dusty, covered in dirt, and, like, his hair would be all over the place and didn't own a suit. Okay. And yet I had this, like, suave version of my dad in a suit with a briefcase, like, never. He didn't own a briefcase. But she's like, I'll Let you get away with that one, even though that's a lie, too. But the rest of them, we, like, swapped out. And she put that revised version of our family on my wall next to my bed. It was the first thing I saw every morning. It was the last thing I saw every night. And it just reaffirmed who I am, pride in who I am. Even if the world doesn't show you reflections of that, we create our own reflections of who we are. It's the kind of mom I want to be to my kids. It's the saving grace. It's been the saving grace for me so many times in my life where I do feel good about myself, but then there's things that happen that make me think twice. And then you have to have a foundation to go back to. You need to be able to reframe, to redirect, to reaffirm and fill yourself back up. So, anyway, I would say that was a moment for me where I felt enough until the world took that away from me a little.

A (8:45)

I was a really performative child in that I wanted to be so loved and so liked by everybody. And also my mom was really obsessed with showing me off as a mixed child. For an Asian woman, woman to be with a white guy and then to have a child from that, it was

B (9:03)

like almost like a trophy.

A (9:04)

A trophy, exactly. But she loved to, like, show me off, bring me around places. I remember we lived at the mall. Just so she could be like, this is my daughter. And I'd have to say my Thai words and, like, be great for them. And then when we'd go to Thailand, it was just a very performative childhood. You've talked about learning to stop that performance and start belonging. How do you know when you're performing for approval instead of showing up as yourself?

B (9:33)

That's such a great question. I would say, first of all, I don't think that performances are always bad. There's probably a part of you that is a born performer. Like, you're funny.

A (9:46)

Yeah. Like, I like the attention of it.

B (9:49)

You like to make people laugh, and you're comfortable with eyes on you. I don't think that's a bad thing. And I don't think we should punish children or people for being who they are if that's something that they get energy from. But I think where it becomes tricky is if that is where you are deriving your sense of worth is in other people's applause and praise. Because when you give people the power to praise you and for that to mean more Than it should.

A (10:19)

It means that means you accept their praise, but you also have to accept what when they.

B (10:23)

Yeah. The disapproval can tear you down and take you to a place that's dark. And at the end of the day, it comes down to, am I being motivated by intrinsic desire or external validation? And I do think asking yourself that question in the moment, even before you walk into a room or when you feel like you're getting a little bit out of your body, you know, when you're not like fully present and you know when you're just feeling disassociated or disoriented. I feel like even at parties sometimes go to the bathroom and just put your hand on your heart. Yeah, I've been doing this tapping thing lately that I got from somebody on TikTok. It helps me come back to my core. I think the difference between performance and moving through the world in your authentic nature is am I coming from a place of intention and operating from what makes me happy, or am I doing what I think is expected of me and what will be celebrated and praised? The reason why I think it's important to ask yourself that is because you can build an entire life, career, and identity that is hollow and unfulfilling. If you are making these choices based on what other people find sexy, what other people think is cool, or what they respect, you have to come back to, do I like this? Does this light me up? Do I think this is cool? And I remember being at this crossroads early on in my career. Like, I just graduated from college and this is the first time in your life where everything is self directed. From here. You go to school, you get the A's. Like, there's a framework that tells you how to be respected and, like, how to be seen as an overachiever or somebody who's good. But then you get to the end of that road and it's like from here, it's kind of up to you. And that can be so disorienting. You could feel lost if you don't have tools or frameworks or questions to come back to. I felt lost. I've been someone who always wants to be great. I just want to be excellent at whatever the assignment is. I could do anything. But at that point, I was like, who am I and what do I want to do and what would feel fulfilling? And those aren't questions I was asked before. One thing I knew is I don't want to look up one day and be like, I hate my life. Yeah, I have all the things that People ascribe to success, but I don't feel happy. And so I knew that I didn't want to be that person was because I did an internship, my first internship, which was an incredible opportunity. I got to go to New York for the first time. I got to work at a sexy advertising agency. And I hated it. Chrissy. Yeah, I felt like I was normally this bright, confident person. It was the culture of that agency, it was how people operated, it was the size of it. I just felt lost in it. Every time I said, I'm doing this internship, people are like, that's so cool. That's so awesome. Like, I had the external validation, but I hated how I felt in that experience. And there were a lot of dynamics going on within that that contributed to it. But when I came back from the internship and I had one semester left, I remember thinking I, I do not want to live the rest of my life feeling like the smallest version of myself, which is what that experience made me feel. Even if it looks great on my resume, even if it pays well, and even if other people think it's really cool, I don't want to live my life like that. So it forced me to be brave enough to like, uncover.

A (14:08)

And that's hard too, because when it is so glossy and sexy and beautiful and such a good look, you're like, why can't I feel fulfilled by doing this? Why am I not happy? It's harder to leave something like that.

B (14:20)

It is.

A (14:21)

Yeah.

B (14:21)

But I think developing that muscle early on in my life has helped me navigate those kinds of decisions with authenticity. Being self guided by intrinsic validation, like what makes me feel good internally. And that compass has never led me wrong. And honestly, if I didn't have that experience that showed me what I don't wanna feel like in my body or in my career, I probably wouldn't have been brave enough to even pursue Magaz journalism, fashion or television. Things that felt so scary to say you want, because how many people walk around with these big dreams that are unfulfilled and then you're like a dreamer, but you're a loser. I had that mindset like, I don't want to be a loser. So it's easier to say you want something that you actually don't really want, but you know you can get than it is to say, I want this thing that I might not get, but it's worth striving for. And so I'm so proud of that version of me that was brave enough to turn down jobs that had good paychecks and that sounded good enough to a lot of people, but for me, we're the dream. I'm proud that she was able to say, like, out loud. My dream is so big it scares me, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I'm gonna chase it. I'm gonna find a way. I come from a small town. I do not come from rich parents. I'd never been to New York, except this one time. I know no one in this industry, but I wanna do this. And then it. The dreams that I had that I was so scared to say out loud as like a 19 year old, 20 year old ended up happening faster than I ever thought.

A (15:57)

Teen Vogue, man. I grew up loving magazines just like you did. Marie Claire, Cosmopolitan. I just thought they were so much fun. They were so, like, aspirational. I didn't need sex tips. I wasn't having sex. I grew up in the times of, like, I was working at Fashion island in Newport beach at the same time that, like, Laguna beach, the show was happening. Oh, my gosh. And Lauren was going to Paris and I got all this. So your story of being like, such an iconic, literally in New York City, living out your dream, you became the youngest editor in chief in Conde Nasty history when you got the job. How did it feel?

B (16:48)

Oh, it was such a mixed bag of emotions because. How old were you? I was 29. Oh, my God. And I told you, I came from this small town where people didn't go to New York and like, pursue big dreams. So it wasn't like this is like

A (17:06)

literally a movie dream. It's not even like a big dream. It's like a big dream is like, oh, my God, could I get a role at in this show? Like, literally what people write TV shows about, people write movies about. I mean, how many times has this been written about with this career woman with what's her name, who's the actress of the day?

B (17:24)

Anne Hathaway. Yeah. Like, I mean, it's Double Wears product.

A (17:27)

Oh, my gosh.

B (17:28)

Listen, there's the part of it that definitely feels and seems like this career fantasy. I'm living my black Elsie Conrad dreams. Sex and the City. I think we all grew up with this, at least our era, that was the pinnacle of career success. It was such an incredible moment. Of course, there were a lot of dynamics at play behind the scenes. Being so young, being a black woman, one of three people who were promoted at the same time and told to do the job together. And things that usually come with the job that didn't come with my job. But I carried the title and the responsibility and the glory, but also in a very compromising way.

A (18:13)

I can't even fathom the jealousy too, of people that had been around maybe longer or that were just older than you.

B (18:21)

No one talks about what it is like to become the boss when you were a peer, when you were a colleague. It's a tricky tightrope to walk, especially when you represent the trifecta. Right. Ageism, sexism, racism, all mixed in subtle ways that are often unconscious. There's a lot of that woven into this story. So as much as I wish I could say yes, it was the best day of my life, I just glided. Is that even a word? I promise I am an editor, but, you know, I was just a swan about town. It was a super challenging time on many levels. Learning how to be a leader in a public way at a really young age. And it just was tricky. And being an editor in chief, it has this brand of being really glossy and sexy and cool and you see people at fashion shows, but no one really knows how all consuming and hard that job is. Yeah, you are wearing 20 hats at the same time. You are literally running a small business within a big organization. We were the smallest, so we got to get away with a lot of experimentation and things that other brands probably couldn't because there was more eyeballs and expectation on them. When I inherited Teen Vogue, it was. We didn't have a lot of expectation of success. It was in an era where social media and the Internet were like. There was this proliferation of digital content that was really attractive to young people and the thing that young people were leaning into. And then I inherit this magazine for teenagers. And I think it came in at

A (20:01)

a time where people were expecting different things from magazines. They didn't want the same day to night look like for things. They were looking for you to be politically forward to step up for them to be their voices. Like, I can't imagine how hard it was for you to navigate because it hadn't been done before. Like there weren't magazines that were doing this.

B (20:22)

Totally. I inherited something that was beloved for being fashion magazine for young people. But as someone who didn't grow up being able to afford clothes like that, who couldn't relate to that lifestyle, I had to lean into what made me different. I realized that I was representing so many different types of people who never saw someone in a role like that write a magazine like that that they could relate to. This was another pivotal crossroads in my life and career where I Was like, okay, I have this big title. Everyone thinks that this is the dream job. I could either do this job the way all of these other editors in chief have done them before and feel like imposter syndrome every single day of my life because I do not come from the lives these people. I have not worn those shoes before.

A (21:12)

But also something that's not game changing at all. Just to survive but not thrive and be cool and different and unique.

B (21:18)

Right. But it would be safer, and it would have been like the model that, you know, that you can just rinse and repeat. Or I can do the scary thing, the most exciting thing, which is throw out that rulebook, actually look into the white space and say what's missing? Whose stories are not being told? What stories do I actually care about telling? And, like, how do I do all of that under the Vogue banner and still make it Vogue?

A (21:46)

How do we evolve people that haven't done it themselves before? Like, I don't know what it's like to become the editor in chief of something, but I'm assuming you don't get to bring in, like, a fully new team of writers who, like, are gonna do the things that you want. You have to, like, make the people that are already there be able to do the new type of writing that you want.

B (22:06)

Certainly in 2016, I didn't have the carte blanche of, here's a whole fat budget and go get whoever you want. But the beauty is. And this is the piece that I don't think a lot of people realize. I was at Teen Vogue for probably five years before I got that promotion, working with a team to change Teen Vogue from the inside out. We were a scrappy team of outsiders. It was like this band of outsiders that we had compiled. So I inherited the job of beauty director from Eva Chen. And that was, at that time, a really big deal. Eva Chen was the celebrated editor. She wore Prada head to toe. And I was just like, I am not that girl. How do I fill these shoes and these expectations? So that really was the first time where I had to wrestle with, what am I gonna do with this seat of power that I have? Am I gonna like everyone who's come before, or am I gonna try to figure out how to be myself and find my voice and my way? And so I got five years to practice with that and build that muscle. And from the first hire that I made to the stories that we told to how we showed up in meetings, it was different. We were changing the culture from the inside out. And I Have to give a lot of credit to the team that was there. Philip Picardi was on my team. He was the digital director, Marie Suter, who was our creative director. And like, we were on the same page about. This is a generation that has something to say about what's happening in the world beyond celebrity, fashion and beauty. They care about these things. So do we. We love it. But we have to create a bigger intersection that widens the tent and honors the intelligence of this generation and does not speak down to them. And so we just, we started creating this intersectional magazine that embraced the intelligence of this generation, that embraced their curiosity and engagement around social justice issues. This is what I'm saying about how we got away with experimenting and bringing in different kinds of stories and content and people and perspectives without asking for permission. And I think that's the major nugget for anybody who's listening, who's dealing with imposter syndrome, or who has this big opportunity and you're like, how do I do it? Don't ask for permission. Just be willing to apologize if you get in trouble. But the reality is we had changed the culture of Teen Vogue and what Teen Vogue meant. And that's what helped me get that role of editor in chief. It's not like they were just taking a bet on me. It was like I was there for five years. So by the time I got those keys, I was like, hand them over, baby. Let's go. Let's ready? Like, the vision was clear.

A (24:36)

Yeah.

B (24:36)

The confidence within me had been built up and I was so ready to go. And I think that's the best position to be in when you step into leadership. And still it was hard, you know what I mean? There was new level, new devils. That's what they say. And it is very true. But I'm just so grateful to that 29 year old girl who spent those four to five years learning how to pitch an idea that's out of the box and even do it if your voice is shaking. And how to put out a story that could get so much backlash if you get it wrong. There was cultural appropriation. It's scarier to be polarizing than it is to do what everyone else did.

A (25:15)

And also in a world where you're working at a magazine and now news is literally just snapping out from blogs and gossip blogs, you're like, what can we put in this magazine that's gonna be lasting and impactful as opposed to like, that's just going to be on like press Hilton or something like that?

B (25:32)

Day, right? Like, and how do you inspire teenagers to buy a magazine when they can

A (25:36)

just go on Pinterest, go on anything and.

B (25:39)

Yeah, totally.

A (25:41)

Okay. Best Anna Winter story.

B (25:44)

So I remember we were preparing for a pitch before any issue goes out. Anna comes in, she reviews the page, and our wellness editor at the time, Vera Papasova, shout out to her because she is so brilliant and so radical. Like, she's like a radical feminist that really pushed the bounds of what we can talk about in a teen magazine. She has never gotten enough credit for it. So I want to name check her right now, but. So she pitched this story about female masturbation, and it was one of those stories where even I felt uncomfortable when she was pitching it to me. Like, this is so funny. I say, like, my booty cheeks got tight. Like, it was a tight booty cheek moment for me as a boss. But I'm like, this is my moment to practice what I preach, right? We bring in outside voices and out of the box ideas. So I'm like, okay, let's embrace it. Yeah, let's see. And so I didn't want to shut her down, but I'm like, how the fuck am I gonna pitch this to Anna?

A (26:49)

Does she come through and just look at them and you're like, in the background.

B (26:52)

No, you're like. You're like presenting. Oh, you're like. And this is about that. And this is about that. And da da da D. And the person that wrote it, they're not there. So you're like, representing on behalf of your team. This was a shaky voice moment, okay. Where I'm like, I don't really know how this is going to go. And this is where as a leader, you take the heat and you take the praise. It could have gone either way. So we get to this page and I say it with a straight face. I pitch her the importance of talking about female masturbation. And my booty sheets are tight, my voice is shaking, and I'm like, she's going to clutch her pearls and this is going to be incredibly awkward and she's gonna kill the story. And she does not flinch. Chrissy. She says, well, I don't understand why not? Men do it and talk about it all the time.

A (27:38)

Oh, my gosh.

B (27:40)

And we moved on and that was it.

A (27:43)

Can you look back on anything and say, like, okay, that might have been a mistake.

B (27:48)

Oh, man. There's a story that I did where I was basically the Vera in the moment where I was pitching something that everyone else was like, are you sure. Can you really carry this off? And if we get blowback, we don't want to get caught out there. We're letting you lead here. And I was like, I got this. Yes.

A (28:04)

So can't even tell them whatever.

B (28:06)

At this moment, it would sound like no one would even bat an eye, and it wouldn't even, like, get attention or get on anyone's radar. But at the time, coming from Teen Vogue, which was a very white elitist magazine in people's eyes, there wasn't a lot of trust built with. With communities of color. So if Teen Vogue is going to do something like a braid story for black women, you better be sure that you do it right, or it's going to go so wrong. Because they just had not built the trust with that community. And people were so ready to call Teen Vogue or any Vogue title out, honestly, for good reason, because of a lot of transgressions over time that were not addressed well. And that was a result of, you know who I always say, like, in order to change the story, you have to change the storytellers. And I was a part of a new generation of storytellers that looked different, that had different experiences, that had a different expertise. And I was like, I cannot be a beauty director who is a woman of color the first, and then do only stories that center white women and their beauty. That would be detrimental to my legacy, to what I'm here to do. And so you guys have to let me do my thing. I've been here now X amount of years. I've been doing it your way. I've been telling your stories. I want to do this story about braids. And I had just gone to Rwanda. I got my hair braided by these African women in a literal hut. It was such a cool cultural experience, and I wanted to write about it. And at the time, it was around the same time that Zendaya went to the Oscars with these bra, with these, like, dreadlocks.

A (29:51)

Giuliana Rancic did the. Yes.

B (29:53)

You remember that moment?

A (29:54)

Yes.

B (29:54)

So Giuliana Rancic makes these kind of stereotypical comments about her smelling like patchouli.

A (29:59)

Patchouli.

B (30:00)

Chipli. Yeah, Right. We know what you meant. We know what you mean. But, like, she makes these comments where she insinuates that her hair must smell like weed and patchouli, which is super stereotypical. And it really undermined the beauty and the power of Zendaya rocking this particular look on a red carpet. Rather than it being celebrated, it was minimized in a way that was really Culturally tone deaf. And there was a big conversation online about that.

A (30:30)

I mean, it completely took down Fashion Police.

B (30:33)

So you remember this was the context for this moment, right? And the story that I wanted to tell, I wanted to connect the dots between that moment in pop culture and then my experience as being one of few women of color in a very white Conde Nast castle. Coming in with my braids, coming back from Africa for the first time wearing these braids and like the experiences I was having, the comments I was getting. But I thought it was an important thing to talk about and I thought, let's do it. Let's create visuals that are very summery and let's cast a mixed race woman who's wearing braids and let's put her in swimwear that's really sporty and cool and color blocking. And let's use the story to talk about this first person experience and bring in Zendaya and that sort of thing. Right? And I think from the very beginning, the team was very nervous because they didn't want to be canceled like Fashion Police for getting it wrong. And I'm like, but you got to trust me, this is my experience. And I'm a mixed race woman.

A (31:34)

And how can your experience be wrong?

B (31:36)

Right. I'm a mixed race woman. I'm a mixed race black woman. Zendaya is a mixed race black woman. Let's cast somebody who's a mixed race black woman as well to represent this story. You already know where this is going.

A (31:50)

No, because you're going.

B (31:50)

You already know where this is going.

A (31:52)

Chrissy, I just hate this feeling for you because are your booty cheeks tight right now? Because I just know it so well. I know, being so well intentioned, the

B (32:02)

intentions were good and pure. Chrissy. And the story comes out and I'm so proud. Like, this is my one moment of putting the culture on my back, doing it for the culture, as they say. And the Internet exploded in the absolute wrong way. They were like, you cast a white woman wearing basically a black hairstyle and then had the caucasity to make this about a summer hairspray story. Chrissy. No one read the story. No one read a single word.

A (32:34)

Of course not.

B (32:34)

Yeah, they saw the picture. Which someone posted in high flash from their camera phone.

A (32:41)

Yes.

B (32:42)

Tweeted it. The light skinned woman of color looked to somebody as white. And then that coupled with that framing, that context, oh my God, it was a field day. People were like Teen Vogue. There were like cultural appropriation strikes again. They just took Teen Vogue down. They took Us down. And I felt responsible.

A (33:03)

Yeah. Who was scared already?

B (33:04)

They were already scared. They trusted. Here I am, the first ever black beauty director trying to do something that represented my culture, my people, my community. For them to be seen, for them to be represented, for them to have the opposite experience of my first memory in preschool. Here I am trying to, like, right this wrong and. And have a full circle moment. And it went so wrong. Chrissy. I never cried like that in my career. I felt so embarrassed. I wanted to crawl under a rock and never come out. I wanted to do it.

A (33:34)

All you want to do is explain it away. Right. But the more you talk about it, the worse it gets. Totally. Yes.

B (33:40)

And it was such a hard thing to figure out how like. And nobody knew who I was, by the way. This was pre Elaine Welteroth, Teen Vogue editor in chief. This was like beauty director. People in the industry knew me, but beyond that, they didn't know there was a black woman in that scene. We hadn't had a conversation about my perspective and they didn't read my story, but it didn't matter. The visual is what mattered. And the casting was insensitive to a lot of people. They were like, if Teen Vogue's gonna finally take on Afrocentric hairstyles, why isn't a dark skinned black woman that is discernibly black, like, you guys missed the mark. And I had to hear that. I had to sit with that. And I had to learn a really important lesson, which is there is intent and there is impact.

A (34:25)

Yes.

B (34:26)

And so the part of me, to your point, that wanted to explain myself away and wanted to make other people wrong for not reading the story, had to sit with. While I had great intentions, the impact was harmful to people. That is what accountability looks like. Being able to say, despite my good intentions, my impact was harmful. And I apologize for that. My hope was that it would open up an opportunity for dialogue where we could sit with the intention, understand it, understand who I am, my experiences, and read the story in context and then build from that place, build a real relationship. And so while it was a painful, hard learning experience, it was a really necessary one to put Teen Vogue on the map as an evolving brand that wanted to have a conversation with our community, learn out loud together, have dialogue, and continue pushing the boundaries rather than what a lot of us feel like doing when we do something that is perceived as wrong in public. You just wanna, like, hide and go back to doing the safe thing and like, go back to the playbook that has been working. That's boring. As fuck, because you don't wanna be called out again. But I was like, I had to push myself and implore my team. This cannot be the last story. This has to be the first story that we do like this.

A (35:44)

When this happened, did you feel like you could have cried in that boardroom or did you cry around your team? Or was it something that you felt like you had to go home and just.

B (35:54)

Oh, man, that's a good question. I cried at home.

A (35:56)

You wanted to be strong for the team.

B (35:58)

Yeah. That's a really interesting question. No one's asked me that. I think because I was such a young editor and I had such a high pressure job, I didn't want to show that it hurt me.

A (36:10)

Yeah.

B (36:10)

But it hurt me a lot. And I absolutely cried so much about it. I obsessed about it. But you know what? I had a teammate who called me and said, elaine, I think you should do an open letter better. And I was like, oh, man, open myself up to another round of gunshots, like. And they really encouraged me to not hide in shame and to not just crumble under the scrutiny, but to get in front of it, to address it directly, to take accountability first, but then to also share myself with people, to allow them to get to know me at the brand and let them know there is an ally here, there's an advocate here. And what it really is really uncovered and exposed is this deeper wound within the black community around colorism. And so even though I'm here representing for us, I'm a light skinned, biracial woman who is a safe version of a black person to be in this white corporate world. And I had to own that there's a lot to unpack around that and that if I'm going to be the one representing, I need to be extremely sensitive. I think I've grown a lot as a leader since then. And actually you had asked me, is there something that I regret or something that I learned? And I would say, like, especially for women stepping into their power, it takes time to know how to wield it. Especially in a world that's only shown you masculine models of power. In a corporate environment, there is this patriarchal model of leadership that the like keep a stiff upper lip. And I think there's so much power in feminine leadership that is emotional by nature. There's vulnerability, transparency, and it's a collaborative approach. And so I think now as a leader, almost 10 years later with my own organization, it is like a startup and we can run it how we want to. I think I would have cried to my team and said the hard things out loud. We would have worked through it together versus me feeling like I had to do it by myself in a corner and then like keep a face on, you know? And I think one of the things I've been thinking about in reflecting on that era of newbie leadership for me is I don't think I felt comfortable with the power that I was given, nor did I associate with it. I didn't understand the way that other people perceived me because of the title that I had. Because inside of the title, I still felt really small. Yeah, I still felt like this little girl from a small town that didn't come from a lot of money. The little girl that looked in a magazine and didn't see herself, had so much to prove, had to work so hard just to get half the anything. So I was like, so in my own stuff and trying to grow and trying to like, like, find my way, find my voice. That I didn't realize that the people around me and the peers that saw me now as their boss that it changed their perception of me. And I don't think I was aware of my power or perceived power enough to wield it responsibly. I still felt powerless in my powerful role. And that's dangerous because if you do not understand the power that you have in a room or the privilege that you have, there's no way that you could be generous with it. There's no way that you could be responsible with it. In hindsight, there were mistakes that I made because I just didn't realize how people saw me and I didn't yet see myself the way they saw me and how human. And I have to forgive myself and be like, you were young, you were learning how to be a leader.

A (40:13)

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Elaine shares with us her hell yes or hell no process for decision making.

B (40:27)

If you, like me, feel very over extended. I use this hell yes or hell no framework to help me get back to feeling in alignment with how I have set my life up with every decision. This helps with friendships, with things in your marriage, with work and career. Navigation. It's as simple as this, Chrissy. It's not just about landing on a quick hell yes or no. It's about identifying whether it's a hell yes or no in its current form. And then sometimes it's about figuring out how to get a no to a hell yes. Okay, so it's like Sometimes the thing and how it's presented to you is a no.

A (41:10)

Wait. I love that, because nobody's put it like that before. People make it so cut and dry. Like, if it's not a hell, yes, it's a no. They've never said what could maybe make it a hell yes. Nobody does that.

B (41:19)

And this is the part that gives you agency. I'm actually gonna give you a real example. Project Runway. When that opportunity came in, I had just left Teen Vogue. I was in my liberation era. My whole thing in that time was, your life is a series of dreams realized. You are allowed to have more than one big dream. You're allowed to accomplish one dream and then chase another dream. And, like, I'm in the. Like, I am defining how I am living my. This, like, afterlife, this editor afterlife, you know? And I was like, I'm not going to say yes to things that I don't feel passionate about, because then I'm gonna build a career for myself, a job for myself that feels like a prison. And now it's actually on my terms. I don't even have a boss, so I can't blame anybody but myself. And I was in the process of writing more than enough, and I was like, this is what I'm doing right now, and if it is not making sense for this number one goal, then I'm not making time for it. And then Project Runway came up. I knew I always wanted to do television. It was like the next big dream that I was too scared to say out loud. So that's how I knew I wanted it. But then when this opportunity came in, I was like, but this isn't the one that I chased down, and this isn't the thing I envisioned for myself. And I don't know if I see myself making sense on that show. So at first, it was a no. And other people were like, you're crazy.

A (42:42)

It's. You're such an obvious person that would be great at this.

B (42:45)

Well, not less even about me, but just more like, people would kill for that job. And they were like, I would kill for that. I love the show. Specifically, I. I didn't see it. I couldn't see it. I was like, I just don't see it. You know, everything we just talked about about Teen Vogue, it wasn't about just fashion. It was about fashion in the context of what's happening in the world and connecting it to culture, connecting it to these deeper, more political conversations. Like, there's no space to do that on Project Runway. So, like, am I really the right person. And I had, like, doubts about it.

A (43:15)

And can I bring that into this zone?

B (43:17)

And if I say yes, am I gonna just feel like I'm an imposter trying to play somebody else's role? And so anyway, the producers were so amazing. They were all female producing team, and they came to me and they were like, elaine, it is you that we want. Cause I was like, I said all these things to them, and they were like, no, no, no, no. We want you because of your voice. We want to change the show. We want to expand what the show means similarly to what you did with Teen Vogue. Like, it was once just known as this one thing, and you made it mean something different. We want you to help us do that too. We want you to feel like you can talk and inclusion and get behind the clothes and what's the story and who is the person creating and what are their values? And I was like, wait, I could do that. Like, basically, we got into this dialogue that helped me understand that the opportunity, if we workshopped it and if they allowed me to bring more of myself to it and what I cared about, it could be the thing that was fun. And so how many times do we get an opportunity to do something that people would kill for, but then something inside of you is like, it's not connecting all the way or it doesn't feel totally in alignment.

A (44:25)

But if you.

B (44:25)

You don't feel like there's space to negotiate, you might say yes and do it and be playing a role that doesn't feel good. And so no matter how much money you're making, no matter how much people think are gagging, you're just like, this feels so inauthentic and it's draining me and it doesn't feel right. Or you can say, could we make it this? Or I have a different idea about what I could bring to this.

A (44:46)

I love you so much, Elaine. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for having me. It was a hell yes just getting to talk to you. It really was.

B (44:54)

Well, it was a hell yes for me too.

A (45:03)

Elaine, thank you so much for joining me today on Self Conscious. Elaine Welteroth's More Than Enough is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on, and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible arrangement original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Q Code and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen, written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek Executive producers for Q Code Shen Yan Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez, executive producer for Huntley Productions Chrissy Teigen executive producer for Auto Audible Stacey Creamer Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev Filmed by Bridger Clements Production coordinator Brian Coulter Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev Head of creative Development at Audible Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Gyazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Original

B (46:11)

Sat.