10 Things I Hate About You with Coco Mellors

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Episode Summary

Title: 10 Things I Hate About You with Coco Mellors
Release Date: February 20, 2025
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Coco Mellors

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1. Celebrating a Cinematic Classic

Caroline opens the discussion by expressing her initial reluctance to feature 10 Things I Hate About You on her podcast, Sentimental Garbage, which typically spotlights underappreciated pop culture pieces. However, she acknowledges the film's undeniable status as one of the best teen movies ever made.

Caroline [01:07]: "Probably one of the best teen movies ever made. Right? Coco agreed wholeheartedly, setting the tone for a deep dive into the film's enduring legacy."

2. Authentic Sisterhood Dynamics

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the realistic portrayal of sisterhood between Kat and Bianca, mirroring Caroline and Coco's own sibling relationships. Coco highlights how the film departs from sanitized sibling interactions, showcasing genuine spiky dynamics intertwined with deep familial love.

Coco [01:57]: "I felt really... it normalized what was going on between me and my sister when we were teenagers... we were pretty mean to each other."

3. The Multi-Dimensional Father Figure

Caroline and Coco commend the film's portrayal of the father character, Bogey Levinstein, noting his complexity and humanity. Unlike typical portrayals in teen movies where parents are afterthoughts, Bogey is depicted with layers that make him both strict and lovable.

Coco [05:29]: "He is such an amazing character because... just give us this little moment of humanity for him where it's like, it's sweet and it's... vulnerable."

4. Adolescence: A Rich Emotional Landscape

The hosts delve into how the film captures the tumultuous emotions of adolescence, from first heartbreaks to identity crises. They appreciate the film's balance of levity and depth, making it resonate with audiences on multiple levels.

Coco [08:42]: "So many of the emotions you have as a teenager you've never had before... it's very ripe for creativity."

5. Cat Stratford: A Complex Protagonist

Julia Stiles' portrayal of Cat Stratford receives high praise for its depth and authenticity. Caroline and Coco discuss the challenges of embodying such a snarky character, emphasizing the moments of vulnerability that make Cat relatable and beloved.

Coco [11:56]: "There are these Ziggy one liners... the quality of the dialogue carries it."

6. Heath Ledger’s Charismatic Presence

Heath Ledger's performance as Patrick Verona is a focal point of the discussion. Despite the character's ambiguous motives, Ledger infuses him with a magnetic charisma that elevates the film.

Coco [36:58]: "For me, that is Heath Ledger. Like, he has a sexual gravity that is like its own force."

7. Brilliant Dialogue and Writing

Both hosts admire the film's sharp and witty dialogue, noting how the writing seamlessly blends highbrow references with contemporary slang. This fusion contributes to the film's timeless appeal.

Caroline [12:34]: "The dialogue is long, but the scenes are short... the dialogue never lets up."

8. Themes of Tragedy and Comedy

Caroline and Coco explore how the film interweaves tragic elements, such as the absence of the sisters' mother and Bianca's uncomfortable sexual experiences, with comedic and romantic moments. This blend enriches the narrative and deepens character development.

Coco [22:34]: "Like the first time you have your heart broken... it's very ripe for creativity and returning to creatively."

9. Fashion and Visual Storytelling

The podcast touches on the film's fashion choices, highlighting how the characters' outfits reflect their personalities and emotional journeys. From Cat's grunge-inspired leather jackets to Bianca's evolving style, fashion serves as a visual extension of their development.

Caroline [72:36]: "Bianca's prom outfit is actually, I think, not what you would expect of her... very punk."

10. Cultural References and Legacy

Drawing parallels to other cultural works like Mean Girls and Daria, the hosts discuss the film's accurate depiction of subcultures and its lasting impact on teen cinema. They commend the film for its confident references to iconic bands and movements that have stood the test of time.

Coco [40:43]: "They were correct to reference the culture they chose to reference. They were correct to cast the people they were like, everything is just like. They just got it."

11. Coco Mellors on Writing and Adaptation

The conversation shifts to Coco Mellors' own work as an author. She shares insights into her writing process, emphasizing the importance of genuine storytelling over pandering to popular trends. Discussing her novel Blue Sisters, Coco reflects on the challenges and rewards of writing about deep, personal themes through fictional narratives.

Coco [77:42]: "Blue Sisters is the story of three sisters... an ode to loving life in the wake of loss."

12. Final Thoughts and Personal Connections

In their closing moments, Caroline and Coco express mutual admiration and excitement over upcoming projects, including Caroline's novel adaptation by Channel 4. They celebrate each other's successes and reaffirm the importance of creating authentic, heartfelt stories in both film and literature.

Caroline [58:35]: "This has been absolutely incredible. I've loved my morning with you so much, so much."

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Caroline [01:07]: "Probably one of the best teen movies ever made."
• Coco [01:57]: "It normalized what was going on between me and my sister when we were teenagers."
• Coco [05:29]: "Just give us this little moment of humanity for him where it's like, it's sweet and it's vulnerable."
• Coco [08:42]: "It's very ripe for creativity."
• Coco [11:56]: "The quality of the dialogue carries it."
• Coco [36:58]: "He has a sexual gravity that is like its own force."
• Caroline [12:34]: "The dialogue never lets up."
• Coco [22:34]: "It's very ripe for creativity and returning to creatively."
• Caroline [72:36]: "Bianca's prom outfit is actually not what you would expect of her... very punk."
• Coco [40:43]: "They just got it."
• Coco [77:42]: "Blue Sisters is the story of three sisters... an ode to loving life in the wake of loss."
• Caroline [58:35]: "I've loved my morning with you so much, so much."

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This episode of Sentimental Garbage offers an in-depth and heartfelt exploration of 10 Things I Hate About You, celebrating its authentic portrayal of teenage life, complex characters, and lasting cultural impact. Caroline and Coco Mellors provide thoughtful analysis, enriched with personal anecdotes and shared insights, making the discussion both engaging and enlightening for listeners old and new.

Transcript

[Caroline]

Hello, and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we talk about the culture we love that is sometimes based around a Shakespeare play. My name is Caroline. And you can be overwhelmed and you can be underwhelmed. Can you ever just be whelmed? And joining me is the woman who's always on the guest list for Bogey Levinstein's parties, it's Coco Melors.

[Coco Melors]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Caroline]

This is such a delight to have you on. And I can't believe we're finally. Finally doing. Doing this episode after many requests over many years.

[Coco Melors]

I had no idea that this was an episode that you were resisting doing it. Resisted giving the people what they want. I know what they need.

[Caroline]

There was a few. When I first started doing this podcast and when I started, like, extending it to kind of movies and things, I had a few sort of ring fence things where I was like, the whole point of this podcast is that it's like under loved pieces of pop culture and that something a bit wrong with them or whatever. And there's a few things where I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing Clueless. I'm not doing 10 things I hate about yout Because I was like, those things are perfect, and they've always been adored and beloved.

[Coco Melors]

Beloved, absolutely.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Canon. Beloved. And like, I do think 10 things about you is one of the. Probably one of the best teen movies ever made. Right?

[Coco Melors]

I agree.

[Caroline]

Totally. Perfect cast, perfect writing, genius choices throughout. Everybody who made this film had great taste.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, they really did.

[Caroline]

And so I was like, well, where's the sentimental garbage turn? But when. When Coco Melors wants to come on and talk about 10 things. Heavy. I was like, I will lift the Bam because I think you're fantastic. And we've been sitting here for 10 minutes and I'm like, well, she's obvious the best person ever.

[Coco Melors]

I know. We've already had the podcast before the podcast. We already had the Chitty chat.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

But now we get to talk about this, which is.

[Caroline]

Yes, tell me everything. Tell me how this movie came into your life and tell me how it stays in your life.

[Coco Melors]

So this film came into my life, I think. I mean, I can't actually remember how old I was when I. I can't remember my life without it. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I would say the same.

[Coco Melors]

It's just a part of the tapestry of who I am. It's part of my DNA and I. It's my sister's favorite film and my mom loves it too, so it's like every generation of women in my family.

[Caroline]

And how old is your sister?

[Coco Melors]

She's two years older than me. And so. And we are like, we're so similar to the sisters in the film. I felt really. I think it was the first depiction of sisterhood I saw that felt realistic to me in that they do not really like each other, but obviously love each other and would always choose each other at the end of the day. But it was nice to have not such a sanitized version of siblinghood shown. Like, I loved that they were so spiky with each other throughout the first. Like, basically the whole film, I would say, right till the end. And it just felt like it. Like it normalized what was going on between me and my sister when we were teenagers, which is that we loved each other. I mean, obviously, and we're very close now, but we were pretty mean to each other, to be honest, for a lot of our teenage life.

[Caroline]

It's so. You're right. It is one of the most sort of lived in dynamics in the whole thing, that family. And I just. I love them together. Cause I feel like in teen movies you see a lot of brother sister dynamics. Very like, get out of my room. But the thing that this actually reminded me of, watching it again last night was Daria and Quinn. Did you ever watch that cartoon? Oh, yes.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a very similar dynamic, I guess, where one is sort of glum and one is very shiny.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly.

[Coco Melors]

But then I think in 10 things I hate about yout, they resist Daria. I think they never break the tropes. That's the whole point, you know. And in 10 things I hate about yout, what's so exciting about the film is that both sisters at certain points play against their type.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Coco Melors]

So we see when Kat, you know, the famous dancing scene is. So it's amazing because it's her sort of breaking out of her usual role of being sort of always separate or cooler than. And then when Bianca punches the ex boyfriend or the boyfriend, it's so amazing. Cause we get this moment of someone who's very sweet and sort of feminine and girlified suddenly become this, like, badass woman.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. And very babied as well.

[Coco Melors]

Very baby.

[Caroline]

It's very. As a perennial youngest child, I always love seeing that representation of youngest children on screen. That thing of, like somebody who has been babied their whole life and you can tell. And they're desperately trying to break out against that mold, but they also don't have the tools with which to do it. It's like she wants to be taken seriously, but she kind of. Bianca resorts to, like, stamping her foot and sort of screaming kind of so quickly because that's the only tool she has to get what she wants.

[Coco Melors]

I'm also the youngest sister, and I think it's like. Because it's. As with every role in a family, I think there's benefits to it and there's ways that it's really claustrophobic.

[Caroline]

Maybe it's best if we just start with the family because I think, you know, that. That. That little trio, they're so, so dear to me. They've like Cat and Bianca and then the dad in the middle. He is just one of the best film dads I so, so frequently in teen movies, the parents are such an afterthought.

[Coco Melors]

It's like, yes, yes, yes.

[Caroline]

You know, I'll be home by 10. And like, I think what's great about what's wonderful whenever something modern bases itself on either Jane Austen book or a Shakespeare play or whatever, and we had this with west side Story a few weeks ago, is that they. With the material, that is quite difficult. There's quite difficult plot leaps to make to plug into a modern context. So it's like, well, what's the deal with this fucking dad? Why won't he let his girls date? And, like, this is quite clearly seen as unusual within their high school and stuff. And it's like this thing everyone knows about them. Everyone knows they got this mental dad and so, like, finding reasons for him to be crazy but also lovable. And it's done so perfectly.

[Coco Melors]

I mean, I think having him be a doctor, having him be an ob. I mean, when they make Bianca weather pregnancy.

[Caroline]

Oh, God. That's the image of this movie that stays in my head.

[Coco Melors]

I know, but it's so. I mean, he's such an amazing character because we get like. There are these tiny moments in that film that aren't necessary at all. Like, for example, when he's watching the ad for the hairspray that can like, little spray hair onto his body, his reaction to it. And like, that doesn't move plot forward. That doesn't do anything other than just give us this little moment of humanity for him where it's like, it's sweet and it's. It's poking fun at him, but it's also kind of vulnerable. And that is so hard. It seems easy to do that. But I know, you know, from writing books, like, it's so necessary for character, but it's not always easy to find what those things are. And they just do it so well in this film.

[Caroline]

Him and his exercise gear. I just love so much the idea that he's like this sort of overworked doctor with two kids he's trying to keep an eye on. But he's got this massive, amazing house and he's clearly fucking rich. And his wife has left him for reasons we don't understand. Weirdly, I always remembered this as them having a dead mum. But watching him back up, and I was like, oh, no, she left them.

[Coco Melors]

I know. I thought she was dead, too. And then. I mean, I do think it's slightly ambiguous, but. No, it does say, because Mum left. The word is left. But then, like, there is this sense that it's completely final because at one point Bianca says, like, it's not like she's coming back to claim these parts of the spirit.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So my memory of that line, that thing with the pearls, is quite a haunting scene, actually. It's played very differently to the other scenes where Bianca's wearing the pearls in their kind of matching but opposite vanity mirrors in the bathroom, which I love. And she's like, they look good at me. And like, she's not coming back. And I thought that always referred to because she's dead. And then later in the movie, Cat says, oh, since mom left. And so that actually really surprised me on this watch round.

[Coco Melors]

But I actually, you know, that moment with the pearl necklace, it's so acid, like, it's not sweet between the two of them at all. There's no. And I do think it captures something which is very true, which is that after a loss in the family, whether it's in this case, you know, maybe the mother abandoned them or maybe she died. The sort of hope, I guess, is that family then come together and sort of band around each other. And, you know, and they do. But in other ways, it completely fractures the family. And they're having such different experiences of the loss that it isolates them from each other. So that pearl necklace scene, it's such a moment of tension and strife between them. And there's the jealousy, which I also think is true of sisters, which is like, I love my sister so much. But yesterday, even in a bookstore, my mom was like, oh, I'm gonna get this Wendy Cope poetry book for Daisy. And I was like, why not for.

[Caroline]

Me, I like poems.

[Coco Melors]

The instinct was so gut reaction, like visceral, like, why aren't. You know, why are you giving something to my sister and not to me? And It's a part of myself that I really hope I don't exhibit anywhere else in my life. Like, I like to think I'm quite generous, but for some reason, and I love my sister, I would give her a book of Wendy Cope poetry, but there's something about my mom giving it to her that I was like, it's.

[Caroline]

Because she's sort of like acknowledging a depth in your sister and not acknowledging it in you or something, or just.

[Coco Melors]

Even acknowledging that she's thinking of my sister. And I'm like, but I'm.

[Caroline]

You know. But the very real pain of adolescence is taken very seriously in this movie. Like when Bianca rejects Cameron and when he says to her, you can't just treat people like they don't matter. I find the pain of that is so real.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, I know. And also I was thinking about being a teenager, you've never. So many of the emotions you have as a teenager you've never had before. So you don't have that. That's why I think so much literature and art focuses on adolescence, because it is that kind of like built in, operatic emotional landscape. Like the first time you have your heart broken, you have no idea that this happens and you recover and you love someone else and, you know, so it just. It's very ripe, I think, for creativity that time and sort of returning to creatively. And I think this film, like, yeah, it does it justice in a way. I was actually reading an interview with the director, whose name I'm forgetting now, but he was saying he didn't want to make like a high school movie. He wanted to make like a real romantic, character driven story that just happens to take place in high school. And I think that these characters are given that sort of. That three dimensionality that like, grace to be many contradictory things even though they are teenagers.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And like. And the. I think what's so well done about it is that particularly the character of Cat Stratford, that it's a really hard character to play because, like, if you've ever done like an improv class or even seen anything about improv.

[Coco Melors]

I have not. I would rather die.

[Caroline]

I would rather die. Well, you know, with the sort of. The kind of. The understood, understood sort of rules of improv.

[Coco Melors]

Not because I think that improv is bad, but because I would not do.

[Caroline]

It because I could not do it. I like the.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, and I mean.

[Caroline]

Exactly. Yes.

[Coco Melors]

And I mean, some of being on podcasts is a little like improv. I would say that you have to just go with it.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Sort of yeah, it kind of is. I mean, you are performing to an audience that is invisible. But you do have sort of. Yes, and. But like, you know, if we were on this podcast and like, everything I said, you were like, no kind of thing. I mean, it would just. It would be a really flat and dead podcast. Even if you were being funny, even if your one liners were really, like, great, which Cat Stratfords are. But, like, it's like, it's a really hard character to find energy with. And same with any kind of character who. Their main thing is they're snarky.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Or whatever. Because they're sort of. She cuts off situations by just stonewalling people. Right.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And so she's even kind of a. Because Julia Stiles is so talented, you want to watch her do anything. But for the first movement of the movie, she's quite difficult to spend time with. And, like, that's the point of her. But also from a filmic sense, like, you need to go through so many layers of Cat Stratford to really love her.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, yes, I think that's really true. I think the reason it works is actually just the quality of the writing is so good that those Ziggy one liners, like, when he's sort of like, you know, I did have an effect on you, Heath Ledger's character. And she goes like, other than my upchuck reflex, you wouldn't have it. You know, like, this is such, like, they're just such great lines. And so the quality of the dialogue carries it. And then we have these moments of vulnerability when we see her longing to be in a band and express herself. And that party scene where she dances and ends up throwing up and is unfortunately sort of softened by alcohol, which I think many of us have experienced as teenagers. That's sort of the turning point for her. And then we see her be humiliated and rejected. And that, I think, is a moment that's really important in the film where there's that turning point where she's always on top, she's always got the comeback, she's always protected in defensive. And then we see that fall.

[Caroline]

So are you talking about the moment after the house? Bogey Levenstein? Bogey Levenstein with Boogie Levinstein.

[Coco Melors]

And also I'm obsessed with that shot where they throw the flyers for the party and it's shot from below and they're falling down the stairwell and all the kids hands are grabbing for them.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And there's that amazing song in the background.

[Caroline]

Sexy, but it's so fucking iconic.

[Coco Melors]

It's such a great shot. It's so. I mean, like, those moments. I think about it a lot when I'm writing. Like, where can I have moments where I stop time, you know, and you just pause and have something just feel like. Just cinematic and amazing.

[Caroline]

It's so gorgeous to sort of, like, use the stairwell in that way in a movie as well. I can't imagine it was done before, but, like, I think what I really admired from a writing and plotting point of view this time around, which I'd never picked up before, is the whole thing that from the very beginning we have that classic scene that Mean Girls later riffed on of, like, oh, hey, you're new to the school. Here's all the people who go there.

[Coco Melors]

The groups are so. I mean, it's mental. There's the cowboy group, there's the coffee kids. The coffee kids. There's the white Rastafarians. Like, they. I mean, it's so amazing because it is like, the groups are so not actually what you would find in any high school.

[Caroline]

No. But I love that they sort of turn because generally it's like, oh, here's the AV kids, or here's the soccer kids. Like, no, they saw the cowboys, you.

[Coco Melors]

Know, every school they were literally lassoing a trash.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's great.

[Coco Melors]

Love.

[Caroline]

So, yeah. Like. But then there's this bit where I can't remember the name of the character, but I love him. Cameron's guy, his right hand man.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, I know. What is his name?

[Caroline]

He's so sweet. He's so good in everything he does. And he's.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, he really is. Well, we know who we're talking about.

[Caroline]

We know who we're talking about. His nerdy friend. But he says to him, oh, that's sort of. Those are the kind of the young leaders of tomorrow or whatever. It's kind of basically the wannabe yuppies.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then he kind of mentions in a offhand way, oh, I try to be in that group, but they kick me out for some fucking reason or whatever. And then later on it's Bogey Levenstein, who's obsessed with golf and achievement. And, like, that must be Nigel with the bridge.

[Coco Melors]

He's like a Young Republican.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly. And that must be Nigel with the Brie. And another must be Nigel with the Brie. So good. And the whole thing is that Cameron's dorky friend is getting revenge on Bobby Levenstein for kicking him out of the group. And that's why he's turned Bogie's party into this massive raging kegger with the flyers and stuff. And it's actually a totally unnecessary plot point, but it just gives dimensionality to this school and this world that there are like, yes, there's a scheme going with Cameron and Joey and Cat and Bianca, but there are many schemes going.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And it gives this sort of real sense of there being many layers to this school, which I love.

[Coco Melors]

And it's a closed loop world, you know, that's just something very satisfying about that when there's, you know, a joke that returns or yes, like, it's easy to miss. But he says, like, you know, like, I was their God. Bogey Loewenstein started a rumor about him or something. I can't even remember what the rumor was. It was something so benign, it was enough for him to be toppled from this young business group.

[Caroline]

But I think one of the kind of character things that doesn't quite totally, it makes sense in a Shakespeare context, but doesn't make sense in a modern film, how people behave context is why is this dorky character so invested in Cameron getting with Bianca? He barely knows Cameron. He doesn't know Bianca. Why is he like going over to Joey's table and getting a dick drawn on his face like he's got no skin in the game? He just wants things to happen. But, like, it makes more sense if you're like, oh, he just loves a scheme.

[Coco Melors]

He loves scheming and it's Machiavellian, you know, and he has a chip on his shoulder. I think that's part of it. It's just he wants to see these sort of deified, popular kids toppled in any way he wants. Like a win for the underdog, whether it's for him or for his friend Kam.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And who can't relate to that? You know, we want it too.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And the whole bit where he's explaining the concept while Joey's drawing a dick on his face and he just completely unflinches, I have a dick on my face, don't I? It's so good.

[Coco Melors]

I know. There's so many good moments. One of the things I'd actually forgotten, like, obviously, you know, you quoted it in the intro. I had remembered that you can be overwhelmed, you can be underwhelmed, but can you ever just be whelmed? Like, that line is obviously, you know, tattooed on my brain forever.

[Caroline]

And then the response that was the.

[Coco Melors]

Response is, I think you can in Europe. And I was just like, that is what takes a film or a screen from just like from good to great. Because that is so knowing. And it just made me laugh so much, I was like, oh, my God. And I never remembered that response whatsoever. And there were so many lines in it where I was like, oh, my God. Like, that's. And I've had it stuck in my head in some way. Like when Kat says to Bianca, like, should I be from Planet Look At Me, Look At Me better than being from Planet Loser. It is also, like, it's perfect of that time, that type of language. So I guess Clueless does a similar thing where it really captures, like, I wonder what the Gen Z equivalent would be like. It would be them walking around being like, not me looking in the mirror. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that is completely repellent to me whenever I see that in, like, a Netflix rom com for kids, for teenagers. But the language in this movie I'm obsessed with. Cause I remember when Juno came out and there was such fuss around Diablo Cody. But Diablo Cody's amazing because she basically created this lexicon of teenagers that is just her own, you know?

[Coco Melors]

Yes. Well, Gilmore Girls, I think, did something similar where there was such a playfulness and a love of language and love of referencing the writing and the quickness of it that we hadn't really seen, you know, and the pace has never dropped in, like, that. I mean, same with Juno.

[Caroline]

Same. And there's, like, a musicality to how they're writing dialogue and how they're referencing things. But I think it's great because, like, I think something similar but more subtle is happening in 10 things they have about you. Because they're sort of using MTV language of, like, oh, the planet Loser.

[Coco Melors]

Then it's contrasted with this really highbrow language. And Kat, the school guidance counselor who's writing the romance novel and is looking for different words for, like, a hard dick, basically. So she's thinking, like, turgid or, like, tumescent. I'm like, I didn't know that word. I had to look tumescent up watching that film.

[Caroline]

Or like, even the kind of. The stupid characters are like, Joey is like, oh, come on, we're all congregating over here. Or like, the moments where people are directly referencing Shakespeare, where Cameron's like, oh, I pine. I perish.

[Coco Melors]

You know, I have to say that's probably one of the only moments in the film where I do it, like.

[Caroline]

Makes my skin cringe out. I know. It is cringe. And it really takes the sort of the charisma of a young Joseph Gordon Levitt to really.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, it really does. It's one of the very few moments where they look directly at the Shakespeare and it does. I'm like, I'm not sure it. I mean, it works now in that I think it feels so camp.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

[Coco Melors]

He's like, I burn, I pine, I perish, and no one flinches. Everyone acts like that's a completely normal statement from a teenage boy. Like his friend is literally like, sure you do.

[Caroline]

Sure. Yeah, I get it. And then like, you dredgers, like, what is it with this chick? Has she got beer flavored nipples? It's just like, yeah, there's this beautiful marrying of like the tone of like sort of very MTV, very kind of 90s, very irreverent. And then also this sort of very highfalutin chat.

[Coco Melors]

I think there's something like that for me is something that's very specifically. It's attractive for me as a woman because I think it's something that women do all the time, which is this mixture of, I mean, like, for example, Pandora and Dolly's podcast, like, High, Low, that's what they picked up on in such an amazing way, which is like, we occupy both spaces a lot of the time. So even, like, I'm here promoting a literary novel that I wrote, but the thing I'm thinking about in the morning is, like, what color if I should wear, like blue eyeshadow because I'm doing a blue Sister store, or if I should go like gold and sparkly.

[Caroline]

Oh, is that what the blue jumper is about? Oh, very.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, the blue jumpers. And I'm occupying both spaces constantly. Like that mix of, you know, high brow and low brow and thinking about things that can be easily disparaged or dismissed, which is like the color of my nails or, you know, whether or not I should, you know, dice and air wrap my hair today. Which takes a lot of time and thought.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And then I'm also thinking about, you know, like, whether or not my book is a Sunday Times bestseller, which I would say is like a highbrow.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And like, I think it's so. You're so right. And it's. It's something Helen Fielding actually said recently when she was promoting the new Bridget Jones movie, Mad about the Boy, where she was saying, like, the reason, like, people misunderstand Bridget Jones by thinking that it's all about Bridget, like, falling on her arse. But what actually going on with Bridget, the reason that she gets into these situations that are completely bizarre but totally understandable is because she's reaching for something higher all the time. Like, she wouldn't get into the situation with the blue soup if she wasn't, like, reaching to make a gourmet meal kind of thing. And it's this thing. And, like, she's like, yeah, women can multitask. And we all know women can multitask, but they can also set kitchens on fire because they're multitasking.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, exactly. Something about the tension between that. That's, for me, it's very like James Joyce used to say. He was always trying to write between the comic and the cosmic. So when he was writing Ulysses, you know, he wanted to have these. You know, obviously there's these amazing sort of inner monologues about, like, the literal meaning of life. But he would also then, like, you know, the character would then be thinking about, like, whether or not he would take a shit that day, you know, and he was always.

[Caroline]

Or James Joyce's fart letters.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, exactly. Somebody who was extremely laboratorial.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

I think that's such an important part of art, and it's so easily dismissed. It's actually very difficult to occupy both spaces and to move seamlessly between the two. Like the gravity and the levity. And so a really good romantic comedy, that's what it does so well. And that's why when you watch a bad romantic comedy, it's because it's usually only in the levity space, they haven't found the way to bring the gravity into it.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Coco Melors]

Like, they don't have the pathos and depth because they think that's not part of the genre. But it is. Cause the genre is all about contrast.

[Caroline]

Oh, you're really music to my ears here, Coco. Loving this. But, like, I think that's. You're so fucking bang on. And I think that's why often when people are, like, talking about movies like this or, like, Clueless or whatever. Oh, do you know it's based on Emma? Like, do you know it's based on the Taming of the Shrew? It's like. Yeah, like, that's not weird. Like, it's like these things are. Should always be in conversation. And that is what makes them good, is that they are trusting a teen audience with, like, serious, traditional dramatic structures, you know?

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Shakespeare himself, it's like he was writing comedy. He was writing tragedy that existed within one author. You know, that was sort of. The point is that they're not separate entities. Like, we have both inside of us all the time. And every tragedy has an element of comedy, and every comedy has an element of tragedy. They have to.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And like, the tragedy in 10 Things I Hate about yout is, like, very finely sewn in. Like, first of all, that, like, these. These girls are motherless, like, for. And the mother has chosen not to be with them. And you can see that they have, like, developed in. In sort of response to that. It happened, like, two or three years ago, seemingly. And around the same time, as we find out, quite late in the movie, Cash was going out with Joey, who's currently pursuing Bianca. She lost her virginity to him and decided that she didn't. It wasn't for her and she wasn't ready and she didn't like it, and she told him she didn't want to do it anymore and then was completely ostracized by him. And, like, that's such a tragic and common story, and it's just sitting right there in the middle of this charming romance.

[Coco Melors]

Exactly. And it's dealt with a very light hand, I think. But, I mean, so many girls watching that will relate to that experience of having had a sexual experience in your teenage years or at any point in your life that you didn't fully want, you know, feeling pushed into it. And Kat's response, which is both sort of healthy and unhealthy, even though I hate to use those terms. It's almost like the amazing thing that came out of it is that she made the decision to never do anything because someone else expected it of her.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Which is kind of great learning.

[Coco Melors]

It's very mature.

[Caroline]

You're gonna take any learning from your statutory race.

[Coco Melors]

Exactly. But on the other hand, what it's done is cut her off from potential connection and loving, a reciprocal relationship. So it's taken a little bit too far in that case, which is also understandable. That's part of adolescence, is you're learning your own boundaries. But it's an amazing response, to be honest. And when it gets revealed, I think it does that perfect thing where it feels surprising but also inevitable when you're like, oh, yes, that makes total sense. That is what has been happening unconsciously. And on some level, you probably knew it, but you didn't know that you knew it.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. And I love how it's like. It's such surprising. Cause she's so tender when. With her sister, when she's telling her all that.

[Coco Melors]

And then Bianca doesn't react very nicely.

[Caroline]

No, she's just like, well. And actually, you know what? Fucking fair enough. Because, like, I think Bianca is a character that has, like, she is made fun of throughout the film for being Shallow and myopic and like. And she is. But she also has a real steeliness to her and a bullishness to her where she's like, well, you saw me being pursued and pursuing Joey this whole time, and you didn't say that he's dirtbag. And she's like, well, I wanted you to make your own decisions. And she's like, yeah, but you were also curtailing me from making any decisions. So you just kind of kept me in the dark and treating her like a baby, which is both the last thing and the first thing all babies want. Yes, exactly.

[Coco Melors]

I mean, she is described as deep at the beginning of the film because it is the segue into, I think, the other most famous and incredible line, which is, I like my sketches, but I love my Prada backpack. And then her friend says, but I love my sketches. That's cause you don't have a Prada backpack.

[Caroline]

No wonder Gabrielle Union turns against her in the end.

[Coco Melors]

I know.

[Caroline]

Say shit like that.

[Coco Melors]

I know. Gabrielle Union's character is done dirty in this film. That's something, I think, that doesn't age well. I would love for her to have had a more. She is just like a very. She's a very small best friend role. And then she's the sort of anti. She's sort of the villain role, which is a shame, to be honest, because the other female characters in the film, I think, are allowed to get a lot more three dimensional. Even she does.

[Caroline]

Yes. Even Cat's best friend, the Shakespeare girl. Yeah. She gets a happy ending. She gets an ending. Yeah, she gets a whole thing. Also. She's so beautiful.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

Who is that actor?

[Coco Melors]

Well, she's also. She's in center stage. She's the ballerina in center stage who's like, amazing at ballet, but actually hates it and wants to be a doctor.

[Caroline]

Another movie that is requested a lot on this podcast and I've never seen.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

So if you ever want to come back in your center stage, I would love to do.

[Coco Melors]

I mean, I'd also actually like to do Save the Last Dance because. Oh, my God, I can't believe I missed that one. Because that is how Julia Stiles got the role in Season Dance scene. I know. And this is. Okay. This is a fact I love about this film is that the director was dating Paula Abdul at the time, and he said to Julia Stiles, like, for that dance scene at the party, you know, I can bring my girlfriend and she can choreograph you. And Julia was like, nah, I'm Good. And the director was like, are you sure? Julia was like, no, I'm a really good dancer. And honestly, she is. That dance scene is so, like, insouciant and cool and fluid. Like, I think she looks amazing. And then because of that dance scene she was cast in, Save the Last Dance, where she is so wooden and not a good dancer. That was strange.

[Caroline]

Well, the thing is, you're so right that. That dance scene, a table dance scene, it remains a confusing scene. And it's really good because it's confusing because it's like this unexpected thing from this character that no one even expected her to be there. And now she's doing this mad dance. You're right. It is both mental and, like, so cool.

[Coco Melors]

Yes. And what I hated. Well, what I love about it is that in that moment, it's like, it's always both.

[Caroline]

It's.

[Coco Melors]

And. And like, it's sort of an empowering, cool moment for her because she's sort of like, taking center stage and, like, she's free and it's also, you know, she's drunk and she ends up sort of falling off the table. And then later on, Joey says, oh, we loved the lap dance or the table dance. And she's been object. You know, he's sexualized.

[Caroline]

How much do we owe you for the table dance?

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, exactly. So he, like, disparages her and actually, like, that's. When I look at that dance, I don't see someone. Not that there's anything wrong with doing a lap dance, but I don't see it that way. It's actually, for me, not very sexual at all. It's just a girl having fun in that moment.

[Caroline]

It is also the worst possible thing that happened to you in your human life is if you are at the club or at the pub or at the party and you're just having a dance and you're really feeling it, and then anybody makes any comment about how much you're feeling it.

[Coco Melors]

Yes. So true.

[Caroline]

Fucking send those people to the Hague. That's not allowed. Never comment.

[Coco Melors]

Never pull attention. Never ever. Well, it's a bit like. I mean, this is a complete segue. But in normal people, one of the things I loved is when Marianne gets dressed up. And one of the things that keeps. That her mother says, and then her sort of, you know, this mean girl at school says, it's like, oh, you've made an effort. And it's that shaming of, like, either really enjoying something or trying hard in any way, like, immediately being cut down.

[Caroline]

It's Awful. One of my favorite parts of Circle of Friends by Mev Binchy, which is one of my favorite books ever, is the main character, Benny. She has a date on the Friday, and she wants to wear something in her hair on the Friday. So she. For the days leading up to it, she starts introducing that she wears stuff in her hair because the worst thing she could imagine is someone saying to her on the Friday, like, that's new.

[Coco Melors]

You don't normally do that. And that kind of self consciousness, which I think exists in all of us, all our lives to some degree for me, is also very teenage. You know, that's a real feeling, like, when you're a teenager. It's that simultaneity of feeling completely invisible and also way too visible, you know? And I think both the sisters navigate that all the time with wanting to be free and unnoticed and just sort of allowed to do what they want. And also wanting attention and wanting to be admired, which I think any girl understands, and the danger of it. Like, I remember that feeling growing up of wanting attention as anyone would, wanting, you know, to be desired or to be admired in any way, but also knowing that it would be dangerous. Dangerous because it could put you at the attention of the wrong kind of boy or man, and also dangerous because it could attract the envy of other girls.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And I think that that, like, this film that is sort of a through line through all of this, which is the jealousy between the sisters and the competitiveness that also, at the same time can turn at any point to, like, complete acceptance of one another and how they both exist in the relationship.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

I mean, the director of this film is. I should have looked it up. It's written by women.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Coco Melors]

Ten things later about. It's directed by a man, but it's written by women.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I actually listened to a great podcast with those two women talking about how they wrote this movie, and it just. It almost made me cry. I was so moved by it, because I just love every. Any story about women creating stuff together. Like, we are at this point now we are awash with, like, great female auteurs like Greta Gerwig and female producers like Margot Robbie and all, like, all these great women who are making great stuff. But what I am so far hungrier for, representation is female partnerships, female artistic partnerships where they make stuff together. And so these two women are best friends, and they talk about how they just took a week in Mexico and they wrote on the beach and they just had a bucket of Coronas between them and they wrote the whole movie. But you can see that is so romantic to me.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, my God. Because I think this is such a great example of. I remember being taught in school that there was competitive dialogue and it's competitive and then there's collaborative dialogue. And competitive dialogue is traditionally quite male, which is like a one upmanship of the way. Like. And collaborative dialogue. For me, the best example always is Sex and the City, which is the four top table of how they build together. They build a joke one by one, like, with Jenga boss and this film. Like, even the fact that that line, like, I think you can in Europe, like, there's always an extra turn of dialogue that just tightens the screws to make it just that little bit funnier and sharper. And that's collaborative dialogue where it just keeps. It builds and builds and builds between multiple people. And that's like, you can. The hearing that it's two women makes total sense to me because you can feel it in the craft.

[Caroline]

You're so right. And if you compare this to something like An American Pie, it's always about, like. And those movies have a value of their own, but, like, it's always about who's the funniest line in the scene.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, it's like, is it.

[Caroline]

You know, whatever.

[Coco Melors]

And that has its own pleasure. Totally like that. It's like, you know, and that. I think it's from, like. And you remember MTV where they had that show where it was like your mama or whatever.

[Caroline]

And it was like, oh, yeah, wow.

[Coco Melors]

It's sort of like language as war, you know, it's like this. For me, this is like language as love, you know?

[Caroline]

Like. That's right. It's building and building all the. The time. What I found so when I was writing my notes as I was watching this is that the dialogue is long, but the scenes are short. Yes, the scenes are unbelievably short. Like, you are moving on to the next thing so quickly, but at the same time, the dialogue never lets up. It's like a very. It's what makes it unbelievably watchable from, like a technical point of view.

[Coco Melors]

It also allows the dialogue to sing. Like, you know, from writing. Like, if you have a really good line, you always try to put at the beginning or the end of a paragraph or even have it stand alone on the page so it can really, like, zing and have some air around it to vibrate. You know, it has a moment where it's allowed to echo. And that short, sharp scene work means that they're constantly Having these, like, great sort of punchlines that then you can move on to the next thing. And it, like, it shimmers for a moment. It has that time.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you're totally right. Yes. You know, I just realized that we've been talking for, like, 40 minutes, and we haven't even mentioned Heath Ledger.

[Coco Melors]

I know, I know. And I have so many thoughts. I mean, that it's so. Because there's. Watching the film when we were talking about. There's an element of tragedy in the center of this, in the combination. And then, of course, now watching that film with the context, it's quite tough, isn't it? And it was his first, I think, like, big American role.

[Caroline]

Yeah. He's only 20.

[Coco Melors]

He was young. And I remember the director, they couldn't find for a long time, like, they couldn't find the person to play that role. And when Heath Ledger walked in, the director said, as long as this guy speaks English, he's being cast. Like, he had that kind of charisma that is so palpable and that sort of beauty that is so immediately arresting. And then when he spoke, he had an Australian accent. And the team had said, well, should we get a dialect code so that he can sound American? And the director had said, no. Like, he's perfect. Everything about him is perfect. Why change anything about him? And it is random that he is Australian. And I don't think that they. Do they even ever really address him?

[Caroline]

They do. Yeah. When they're kind of confronting the kind.

[Coco Melors]

Of myths about each other. Oh, yeah, it's true. Because. Yeah. Kat says the accent, and then he is real.

[Caroline]

I lived in Australia till I was 10.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, yeah. No, that's true. They do. And it's like. And that's deftly done. And also, the truth is, like, people. Not everyone American goes to. You know, people do move country. I moved to America in high school. You know, I had an English accent.

[Caroline]

But, like, I think what's so important about his Australianness is that otherwise, like, the character written down, it makes complete sense that they found it really hard to cast because the character's really kind of nothing. Do you know what I mean? It's like he's a bad boy, but the things that make him bad are really weird. Like, he flashes the cafeteria worker, which actually is horrible. No, but it wasn't horrible.

[Coco Melors]

No, but he doesn't. It was actually a. Sorry, it was a brat. Bratwurst sausage. And then.

[Caroline]

Right, right.

[Coco Melors]

And then the school counselor says, you like a bratwurst? Like, aren't we optimistic. And I never got that joke for so long. But then she ends up putting it.

[Caroline]

In her romance novel. Oh, my God, the fucking Alison Janey is the guidance counsellor.

[Coco Melors]

Amazing. And the whole casting is incredible.

[Caroline]

All the casting is amazing. But it always really annoys me when I'm on this podcast and I, like, don't mention someone's full name and people get really ratty. Anyone who does that, take a fucking chill, P. It's Allison Janey. I know. It's Alison Janey.

[Coco Melors]

And she is so good at that role. Again, it's like these tiny little character parts that are given. I mean, the fact that she's writing her romance novel and she's. So when Cat comes in and she's got the mug. She's got her cat mug. And then she's like. People would describe you as. And Cat. I can't remember what Cat uses as the word. She's like, opinionated or whatever. And then the guidance counselor, it says, heinous bitch is the word that comes to mind. So try not to do that anymore.

[Caroline]

Isn't it weird how frequently the word heinous was used in the 90s?

[Coco Melors]

I know it does. Satisfying. But it's satisfying. It really is so odd.

[Caroline]

I think it's a real 90s phrase, even though it's, like, a very classical reference.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah. And like, barf.

[Caroline]

Barf.

[Coco Melors]

That was another. It actually can't be said with an English accent. It would like barf.

[Caroline]

So. Right.

[Coco Melors]

Okay. But then back to Heath Ledger.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. Okay, so the character. Yeah, his sort of first introduction is that, like, he. Well, put a bratwurst through his pants or something.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Which is weird.

[Coco Melors]

He smokes.

[Caroline]

He smokes and he's like. Puts a fag out on that.

[Coco Melors]

Or a frog. A dead frog. We should probably. I know.

[Caroline]

They are not like, these are not dreamy bad boy traits.

[Coco Melors]

No. They're actually creepy psychopaths traits.

[Caroline]

You need to drill through Cameron's book when he tries to talk to him.

[Coco Melors]

No, no. He's giving mud.

[Caroline]

Yeah, like. But like. And it's also never clear why he's been like. It's very clear why Cat and Bianca are the way they are. But with Patrick, you're just like, he's just a freak and kind of mean.

[Coco Melors]

And I also think it's that thing of transferring schools and being an outsider and if you're gonna be ostracized anyway, which, you know, we don't know is part of his backstory, but it's sort of like. Well, Then I'm gonna deliberately separate myself and reject everything around me. And so. So that's sort of his.

[Caroline]

It's sort of like the kind of two lines of dialogue. There are two bits of exposition we have in terms of this character. Here's who he is, is that he lived in Australia till he was 11 and he spent a year looking after his granddad and, like, living on his couch and eating SpaghettiOs or whatever. So it's sort of like. And that those two lines don't amount to much, plus the performance. They kind of amount to somebody who feels like they've been dragged from pillar to post a bit. They've been like, maybe parents not together, maybe shifted from this country to the other. Oh, you're staying with your granddad for a while. Like, who's. Who's like a teenager and looking after their granddad and also doesn't have his own room. You know, like, there's something really kind of sad and isolating about that whole vibe. And he brings it to the character. And I think there's the Australian ness really helps because it gives him a sense of, like, otherness and, like, unfigureoutability, you know.

[Coco Melors]

And he also has this feeling, I think, of being sort of outside of time as a character. Like, I mean, obviously, like, the most amazing scene, I think, is when he does the song for Cats, you know, when he has to sacrifice himself on the altar of dignity, as they describe it. And the song. I mean, that song choice for me is so telling. And perhaps it links in some way to the grandfather that he actually has sort of been living in a different time. Like that. That's the song he chooses. You know, you're just Too Good to be true. And the way he does it is a sort of Fred Astaire style, you know, and it has this kind of almost silent movie era, physical comedy to it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And there's something for me that's so sweet about that because Kat is also a character that sort of lives outside of her own time. You know, she's reading Sylvia Plath, the Feminist Mystique. And they're both characters that are sort of. They're very much. You know, this film is very of its time in some ways, but both of them are a little bit like they're sort of old souls that find each other.

[Caroline]

Yes. And what's so lovely is that they're both kind of countercultural. And something I love about the representation of culture and counterculture in this movie is that how, like, you know, there are so many like subcultures and movements. And I mean, you could argue there are both too many subcultures right now and. And none at all. Because it's like, oh, this week on TikTok it's ballet corps, or this week it's Mob Wife. But like, you know, this movie is based in Seattle and it's very much working with the kind of alternative riot girl movement. Like, they name check bands in a way that movies rarely name check bands like this because it dates the movie. And like she references the Raincoats and Bikini Kill. Like these bands that are still considered very iconic as part of a movement that even then wasn't being covered all that much, you know what I mean? Like, the most of the regular punter would have known about that whole scene would have been Courtney Love. And then only because it is, you know, Kurt Cobain's wife, you know what I mean? These are not mainstream cultural sort of touch points, but the film uses them with the kind of confidence that like, oh, this is going to be a big deal in 20 years. And like people like, you know, fucking Kathleen, whatever her name is. Your one from Bikini Kill. Oh, yes, she has a book out like this month talking about. Does she? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Riot Girl, it's called. And so the leaders from that era that Cat Stratford was a part of are now considered really important icons. But the movie knew that then, if you know what I mean.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, I mean, there's something very prescient about the whole film. One, including those bands, two, just who they cast. Pretty much everyone in that film went on. Actually, the actress that plays Bianca, I'm not sure what she's doing now, but a huge swathe of those actors, both from the small character actors to the lead, are now doing amazing things that obviously Heath Ledger, before he died, became one of the most famous and beloved actors of all time. And so, I mean, there's something about that film. Like there's a kind of magic that happens.

[Caroline]

Everyone's instinct was just correct.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, it was correct to reference the.

[Caroline]

Culture they chose to reference. They were correct to cast the people they were like, everything is just like. They just got it, you know, but it wasn't.

[Coco Melors]

I mean, like it said in Seattle, not LA, for example. And that was, you know, like 90210. Like all the big teen shows were in LA for a long time. So it's like, it's slightly off, it is counter in some way. And yet it's like the Skipper to the Barbie of the industry. But Skipper became Barbie. This film I would say is now considered true, true canon. But I feel like at the time it was a little bit of like a. It was a sort of off brand. Like, I had read that originally when they made the film, they had wanted to cast a lot of the people from Dawson's Creek because none of the actors they ended up casting were known. Every single one of them is an ingenue and it's one of their first roles. So it does have a feeling of the little film that could. A little bit.

[Caroline]

Is that like the dad's dialogue when he's like, you're sleeping in each other's beds like those Dawson's Creek. Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

I feel like there are a lot of in jokes in the film, like little nods between the writers that feel.

[Caroline]

Very improvised, don't they? But the thing is, I know that scene of Heath Ledger singing, you're just too good to be true on the bleachers. And you're right, it is like an old style crooner. But then he's sort of like running around with the security guards and like slapping them in the ass and stuff. And it's such an amazing scene. It's. But to me, the scene that like, I fancy him the most in is when he goes to the gig and he watches cat dance.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, I know.

[Caroline]

And you see a lot of cat dancing, you see a lot of her dancing. But like, like you just sort of see him melt a bit. And I think there's something that really gets to the heart of so much female fantasy of like a man witnessing you when you don't know you're being witnessed. Because so much of our performance, you know, of our gender has been coached into us. Whether or not we say what reasons we're doing it for. There's a part of us that's been coached to please men. And so the idea that she's in this female space, like listening to this one, a girl band and just having fun with her friend and like a guy is watching her and she doesn't know and he just thinks she's fabulous.

[Coco Melors]

You know, and there's actually one. There are so many things I want to say about that. I was actually telling my husband about the experience of being a teenage girl recently. And I was saying, like, one of the only things I had as a teenage girl was trying to be pretty. Because what I did as a teenager was that we would go, all the girls would go and watch the boys either play play football or practice or practice.

[Caroline]

And the boys didn't watch us do anything.

[Coco Melors]

They never so the only thing. Because you were so passive, the only thing you had was sort of peacocking.

[Caroline]

I remember that phase of life so much.

[Coco Melors]

And.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And you had no skills. Like, there was. It didn't matter if you were in a band or you played football. It was because no boy was gonna watch you do it. So it didn't matter. In terms of mating, you know, in terms of, like, trying to attract a boyfriend or a partner or anyone. And so that feeling of passivity, that was such a big part of adolescence for me. I love in this film because he watches her when she's watching Band. And then there's an amazing, very quiet, tender scene where she's practicing guitar. And there's actually incredible Joan Armor trading song in the background. Because, I mean, the sound. The soundtrack of this film is incredible. But that song is so. I mean, I love that song. What is it called?

[Caroline]

The Weakness in Me.

[Coco Melors]

The Weakness in Me, which is actually about having an affair. But that song is in the background. And he kind of comes up behind her. She's playing the guitar. And then he changes his mind and he retreats.

[Caroline]

But she sort of feels him there.

[Coco Melors]

But in every single scene, she's. She's playing the guitar.

[Caroline]

She's playing football.

[Coco Melors]

She's playing football. She's in the bookstore picking out a book. She's in the car and then backs it into Joey's car. You know, it's like even to see a girl or a woman driving and not always have the boys driving. You know, she has the cool vintage car, not the guy.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you're so right.

[Coco Melors]

I just loved all of that. And it doesn't emasculate him in any way to be the watcher or to be the admirer. It's actually. It's part of the love language between them is so. But you need an actor that has that kind of intense masculinity built into him. Like, I remember. Oh, Emily Nussbaum.

[Caroline]

She describes. I love her. The film critic at the nyt. Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

She describes an actor as having so much sexual gravity, he could be his own planet.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And for me, that is Heath Ledger. Like, he has a sexual gravity that is like its own force, you know?

[Caroline]

You know, so interesting. You're so right in the way he. His performance of masculinity is so assured. The one line of dialogue that never sits right with me is when he's like. He kind of makes fun of sort of the riot grrrl bands where he's like, I'm gonna listen to some chicks who can't play their instruments. And then we know he doesn't think that because he's, like, friends with one of the bands. So I never loved that line.

[Coco Melors]

There are a couple of moments like, Cameron kind of negs Bianca, and that's when she ends up kissing him. And actually, it kind of sort of rubbed me the wrong way when I rewatched it. Cause he's sort of being mean to her. He's like, you know, you're not.

[Caroline]

I'm glad he's being mean to her, though. Cause she needs someone to be mean to her. There's something that, like you said just there about Heath Ledger's kind of power and something I remember reading in a Michelle Williams interview years after he died, which, like. Oh, just the idea of her, like, raising their daughter alone is just so moving to me. And I really. I really. I think we all feel for Michelle Williams in a very special way. Because, you know, what she's been through. But she talks about how. She talked about how she kept her hair short for years because of the one man she knew who said he preferred it on women. And there's something about that, you know how, like, men are just obsessed with long hair. And, like.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, I do. I mean, I grew my hair long when I was 14. And that's when I first got a boyfriend, I'm sure. I mean, I also like having long hair. And I do. I do it for me, but I do.

[Caroline]

I do it for.

[Coco Melors]

But I also, on some level, I'm like, that's.

[Caroline]

We all dream for a pixie cup, but we're all afraid of what the men in our lives will say. And that's something that's both perfectly Heath Ledger and Patrick Verona Venn diagrammed in that sort of little factoid that he loved Michelle Williams short hair.

[Coco Melors]

I think, like the shadow of addiction in Heath Ledger's life. And that feeling that somehow, like beauty, charisma, talent to be so special that it has to come with a price somehow. And I don't know if I necessarily believe that's true, but he is an example of someone where it feels like an example, like evidence, like, there was something about him that was. So. How many people get to be that undeniable, you know, and undeniable to everyone.

[Caroline]

Like men and women, anyone that doesn't.

[Coco Melors]

Think Heath Ledger is just absolutely dreamy in every. Or talented or, you know, just profound in some way.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you're right. That's such an excellent way of putting it. Profound in some way. And the thing is, I remember when he died and I. People found him profound, even. This is not like a shadow that we have added with his death. Like, people were obsessed with him before this.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, that was himself in a way.

[Caroline]

That felt deeper than, like, an ordinary heartthrob thing. Like, people were just so invested. And like, when he did that turn in the Joker, that was so unexpected. Or in the Dark Knight where he played the Joker, it was so unexpected, but it was so inhabited. Like, he's just so watchable in everything he does. And there's. He has that thing that Julia Roberts has where you feel they are both inhabiting the character 100%, but you also feel like you can see their true essence behind their eyes, and you feel.

[Coco Melors]

Like there's always something in them. It's connecting with you. I mean, and in Brokeback Mountain, like, the choices he made as an actor were really incredible. You know, like, that was a film that many, many actors just wouldn't touch because there was still so much rampant homophobia with, like, so many male actors were still afraid to play a gay role. And he. Again, it's that sort of undeniable masculinity, which, of course, you can be extremely masculine. That's a complete fallacy that you can't. But the confidence that he had to just sort of take any role. And this role in 10 Things I Hate about you, like, there would be a way to play it with another actor that actually. That didn't have at all any of that sort of like the depth or the humor or the. What he brings to it. I don't know. Is just as you were saying, there's not actually that much on the page.

[Caroline]

For him to work. It's not a great character.

[Coco Melors]

No, it's really not. Like, I don't think, like, Cat's character, like Julia Stahl said, I read that character, and I was so. I knew I had to play her. You know, I was so excited. That makes sense to me. His character. Yeah. Not so much as.

[Caroline]

You say, he's the watcher. Like, he spends a great deal of the movie just observing her. And that's not a role that many men jump at, really.

[Coco Melors]

And he does something kind of shitty. You know, it's like he dates her for money. And they don't have a huge amount of time at the end of the film to undo that. You know, it's only in the last. Like, she finds out in the last 10 minutes of the film. It's quite tricky, actually, because. Cause that is really fucked up to find out how great his Fear is.

[Caroline]

And also his motives are never made clear as to why he goes along with it for so long.

[Coco Melors]

Well, here's actually the thing I was thinking when I was watching it is there's quite a subtle class narrative happening in the film, which is that his motives are money. And it's never made explicit that he needs the money, but he obviously can't resist it.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Coco Melors]

You know, and Joey is wealthy and the sisters are wealthy, you know, and it seems like this is such a, you know, Seattle is. Is the most like, sanitized, gorgeous version of it, where it's literally just like sunshine and gold.

[Caroline]

I know. Where the hell is Seattle Son from?

[Coco Melors]

And he isn't like that. You know, even he's not this like, American heartthrob. He's Australian. He's been living with his grandfather. Like, there is maybe it's not explicit, the sense that perhaps he's not wealthy and doesn't come from that world. And so the money is a real incentive. You know, he's being offered $100 to take someone to prom. That's a lot of money at that time. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of money for any teenager. I would.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. And like, you just. Yeah, you're right. You just kind of can't resist it, really. And also on some level, it's just like, well, I can have my cake and eat it. I can go out with the girl I like and also get some money to take her out with. That's nice.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, exactly.

[Caroline]

Buy her a guitar.

[Coco Melors]

And that's the thing, the buying of the guitar is like, it's the only thing that can redeem him. And it's one act and they had to do it really fast. And it works, you know, it really does.

[Caroline]

And even the, like, Julia Stiles herself sort of like. Or cat, rather references. Like how neatly it's all been tied up where she's like, you can't just buy me a guitar every time you do something wrong.

[Coco Melors]

Then he says, yes, but there's also drums and bass and maybe even a tambourine.

[Caroline]

So they are sort of making fun about how little time they actually have to resolve this plot. Which, again, is such a. Like, we need to bring back the 90 minute movie.

[Coco Melors]

Like, the fact I know it can be done. Because if you have earned the goodwill of your viewer, we don't mind. We want them to make up. We want them to be together. We're not going to push back. We're not going to be like, oh, that's so neat. We crave the neatness. It's satisfying. So I think it doesn't have to. Not everything has to be so highly earned. If you've already done the work, you're.

[Caroline]

So we've gone over the top with talking about things being earned. It's like, we can just take a leap of faith. If we like the characters, it's completely fine. It's totally fine.

[Coco Melors]

I'm like, it would be so depressing if she was like, no, fuck you.

[Caroline]

I guarantee you that there is somewhere in a major streamer's office right now, whether it's Netflix or Amazon prime or whatever, they are having a meeting about 10 Things I Hate about yout, the TV show. And in that TV show, we get the grandfather, we get the why the mum left, and maybe one of the girls visits.

[Coco Melors]

It was meant to be a musical on Broadway. I'm sure it never happened, but everything was meant to be a musical on Broadway.

[Caroline]

At some point, everything just gets stretched out and elongated and people think that, like, oh, we're gonna, like, add so much more shades and vibrancy. It's like, no, you're not. You're just over explaining the thing to death.

[Coco Melors]

No, because the potent thing is in its brevity. That's the whole point. It's like an espresso shot, you know, it's like, it's not the same as a latte. That's the whole point. They're not meant to be the same thing. So. Yeah, I agree. I mean, like, it's hard, this thing of everything being remade, everything being sort of, like, reworked to death. Just write something new. There's gotta be. There are so many amazing female screenwriters. It's like, I just want two of them to get together and write a new romantic comedy that hits like this one.

[Caroline]

And they're doing it. They just can't. I mean, I'm fucking doing it. But, like, no one can get anything made because it's all about intellectual property all the fucking time.

[Coco Melors]

But even the stuff with intellectual property can't get made. I mean, trying to make Cleopatra and Frankenstein the TV show has been. I've never. I'm like, it would be easier to break in or out of Riker's Prison at this point. Like, I just. I'm like, why is this so hard?

[Caroline]

Why is it so hard? I don't know. It's.

[Coco Melors]

I know, I know. And that's why I'm so glad. Feels like this did get made. And there's a nimbleness to them. Probably because they have no big Hollywood actors. The budget, you know, I can't imagine was ginormous. Ginormous or needed to be ginormous for this film.

[Caroline]

Well, this is. I mean, this is unrelated, but I was. I saw a real pain. Jesse Eisenberg's movie.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, I loved it.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I loved it. I just fucking adored. And it's just like, it's such a writer's movie. It's so. The dialogue is so delicious, and it's so well done. But I've been listening to podcasts with him talking about how, you know, he got it made. And you would think, you know, it's like a $4 million movie. It is written by Jesse Eisenberg. It's starring Jesse Eisenberg. He's starring in his own film. It's directed by him. You would think that would be so easy to get made. And he was talking about, like, cobbling together grants from the Polish tourist board and, like, how he had an investor, but they dropped out at the last minute. If fucking Jesse Eisenberg can't get his $3 million movie made.

[Coco Melors]

I know. With a Culkin.

[Caroline]

You know, with an Emmy winning Culkin.

[Coco Melors]

But that's what's so crazy. And that's why Hollywood is cuckoo La la land. Because $4 million is literally 4 cents in, like, America, like, in making a film. It's very. But $4 million is still $4 million, so it's not like it's still hard to raise 2, 3, $4 million to make an indie film.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And yet it's not considered a lot of money in the industry.

[Caroline]

And everybody wants to make movies at that level. Like, every. Everybody misses the same stuff, which is movies like this and movies like a real thing.

[Coco Melors]

But it's like, you are writing and.

[Caroline]

Great characters and whatever.

[Coco Melors]

But I couldn't just go make a film for $4 million. It's not like $4,000, you know, which is like. That would be like, okay, maybe I could, like, scrap that together and go make a film. But the bar to end entry is still so high, even though it's the lowest run.

[Caroline]

But this is so unrelated, but it's obviously. We're clearly both fucking frustrated by this, both from creator standpoints and also viewer standpoints, because we are swimming in bullshit. Like, there's never been more shit to watch than ever. And all anyone wants is just, like, small movies with good characters saying cool things.

[Coco Melors]

And also, what I want is things that are tonally light but still deep, have depth in terms of what they're exploring. Boring. Because it feels like everything that's really good is so depressing, which is like, of course there's a place for that. But I'm like, I don't always, like, want to be. I don't, like, want to sob, always. You know, sometimes I do. But I also want things that feel, like, clever and quick and inspiring and, like, nutritious to watch, but that are still fun. And it's so hard to find anything.

[Caroline]

In that, even a real pain, which is such a great writer's film. And there's so much great dialogue. It's ultimately. It's a sad watch. Like, there's, like, they're in a concentration camp for, like, 10 minutes in that movie.

[Coco Melors]

He does manage to keep the buoyancy up, though, which I think is one. It does.

[Caroline]

But I would just love a movie that is that well done, but is also about teenagers in school.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

With the vague plot of a Shakespeare.

[Coco Melors]

That's all we're asking for.

[Caroline]

Come on, Jessie. Come on. Make it for us.

[Coco Melors]

What I want to see, actually. And this is. And I feel like your book, like, would be perfect for this, the Rachel Incident, one of my favorites of last year.

[Caroline]

Oh, thank. By the way. Thank you for saying good stuff about it.

[Coco Melors]

That's how we ended up connecting.

[Caroline]

I know.

[Coco Melors]

I recommended it to Cosmopolitan.

[Caroline]

Idea. Yes. One day I opened my phone and everyone was like, oh, my fucking God, Coco Meloris has recommended you. I went mad. It was a great day in my phone that day.

[Coco Melors]

I read the Rachel Incident very soon after I had given birth, because for exactly this reason, it segues right back in. I was looking for a novel that's really well written and really clever, but not gonna really depress me because I was postpartum and in a very fragile state. And it was such a delight. Like, I just devoured it. I loved it so much. And I really was hoping it would be adapted because, again, I was like, this tone is what I want to see in television at the moment. What I really want to see is Empire Records. Like, that kind of film, but made about a bookshop. And so there's a writer coming to the bookshop that day, the same way that in Empire Records, there's the musician coming. And it's Rex Manning Day. It's Rex Manning Day, but the writer acquitted. And it's all about the booksellers and the relationships and the intrigue. Like, I've never seen a great film set in a bookshop. Yeah, in Notting Hill, obviously. That's the bookseller that we were about.

[Caroline]

To actually the news could be out by the time this podcast broadcasts.

[Coco Melors]

What is it?

[Caroline]

The press release is being, like, commissioned. Like, it's going out and hitting the trades this week.

[Coco Melors]

It'll be a drum roll, and if.

[Caroline]

Not, I'll just delete this bitch. But, yeah, the Rachel Instant has been picked up by Channel 4. Oh, it's gonna be.

[Coco Melors]

They're making it.

[Caroline]

I mean.

[Coco Melors]

Sorry to the listener who knows.

[Caroline]

One of the first people who knows.

[Coco Melors]

Wait. That is amazing.

[Caroline]

I met you for the first time today, and, like, here's the biggest professional news of my life. Oh, my God.

[Coco Melors]

I'm so happy to hear that.

[Caroline]

I've been sitting on this since October. This is insane. Oh, my God.

[Coco Melors]

But they're actually getting.

[Caroline]

They're actually getting names.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

I mean, who knows?

[Coco Melors]

Are you reading it?

[Caroline]

I've been to the COVID Yeah. I'm writing it.

[Coco Melors]

TV or film?

[Caroline]

Tv.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, my God. That is so good to hear.

[Caroline]

Can I just say, you're a lovely girl. I think you're heaven.

[Coco Melors]

I think you're heaven. And this is so good.

[Caroline]

I was so impressed by you from afar for so long. And, oh, my gosh, she's just a lovely little goober like me.

[Coco Melors]

It's nice to be nice.

[Caroline]

It's nice to be nice.

[Coco Melors]

But also it's nice because we have to celebrate these things. It's a win for all of us. Like, it's such a good thing when good stuff happens.

[Caroline]

It's a good day for the parish.

[Coco Melors]

You know, it's a good day for the parish. It's like, I want to see good books get adapted. I want to see good books sell well and do well. That's what I want. You know, it's like. Because actually, it's also, selfishly, it's depressing when you see something where you're like that. Like, why that?

[Caroline]

Why that?

[Coco Melors]

And it just makes you feel like you're so out of step with the times.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Can I be a little bitch for a second?

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Caroline]

So, so awful stopping. I tend to get my age. I was really excited about that new Netflix show, Apple Cider Vinegar.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, I haven't seen it.

[Caroline]

So that was about a story I was obsessed with when it happened, about Bel. Belle Powley, I think her name. Is that right? Belle Gibson. Belle Gibson. Australian influencer who got famous because she lied about having brain cancer and she had a wellness app and she, like, healed herself with blueberries, and she got people to, like, go off their chemo and, like, eat whatever dragon fruit in order to cure themselves when she never had cancer to begin with. And like people have died.

[Coco Melors]

Oh my God.

[Caroline]

And like a fascinating story, but like the show just cannot. I was so excited to watch it. It cannot get out from under itself. It's just like, it's obsessed with the fact that it's an online. So we just keep seeing like Instagram grids on screen. It's like, it's. It's like they've made a show. It's like, okay, well, we have to take for granted that 99% of population has ADHD. So we have to keep them like alert at all times. So like the scenes never sit. It's just like flashing lights and a new thing all the time. You have no fucking clue who these characters are. It's really bad. You're like, why has that been made?

[Coco Melors]

I know, I'm like, I think that's the thing is like when you're trying to make something, you can't pander to the lowest part of ourselves. Like all of us have that thing that we can't concentrate, that we're on our phones while watching tv. And that's, okay, fine, that exists. But that's not, as the artist, what we should be trying to hit. It's like you're trying to disappoint people's expectations to create new, better ones. Always. Which is why I think maybe you have this with your book. When I wrote Cleopatra and Frankenstein, I was constantly asked to write a sequel, which for me didn't. One I actually thought if the TV show got made, that would be the place that a story would be. Yeah, of course, yeah, like that would make sense. But also the goal is not to just keep giving people what they've already imagined for you. It's to imagine something new. The only thing you have as a writer, especially with your first book, is you're not bloody. I wasn't being paid. So you don't have any money. You only have your freedom. It's like. And the freedom is so intimidating, but it's also so sweet and it's so incredible and I just couldn't give it up.

[Caroline]

You're so right.

[Coco Melors]

It's like it's the only answer for anything when someone, everyone's like, why did you do this in the book? And I'm like, because I wanted to.

[Caroline]

Because I wanted to. I had to.

[Coco Melors]

And I had a full time job as a copywriter, so I didn't have, you know, and in that job. Why did you do this? Because the client said so.

[Caroline]

Oh my God. I didn't realize you were a former marketing girly as well.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, exactly. Well, like, you don't have that sweet sweets freedom, but you do get the sweet, sweet paycheck. So, you know, that was the trade off. But that freedom, which I felt with my first book, which I still feel like with my third book, I'm like, oh, do people really want to read about. I mean, writing about, you know, fertility and miscarriage and the choice to become a mother and like. But I'm like, that's what I want to write about. Like, that's what feels pressing to me at the moment. That's what I'm chatting about with people. And if I'm chatting about it, then surely someone wants to read about it.

[Caroline]

Yes. God, you are just a breath of fresh air. Do you know that I was in such a kind of slumpy February mood when I got out of bed this morning? And I just.

[Coco Melors]

Grim today.

[Caroline]

Grim today. And I've just had. I just had the best morning ever.

[Coco Melors]

I know. This has been so nice. Please have me back.

[Caroline]

I will. Honestly. Open invite. But, like, then before. Before we wrap, we should really talk about all the little bits of this movie that we haven't touched on yet. Horniest scene, I think is when they're doing paintball and when he kisses her in the hay bale.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

That's so good. Because it's like being kissed in the hay bale is such a. Kind of a classic romantic image. But the fact that they're covered in paint and it's caked into her hair.

[Coco Melors]

And they're wearing jumpsuits, she actually. Julia Stahl said that was her favorite scene that I think she's ever shot. She said is that paintball scene.

[Caroline]

Yeah, well, of course it is.

[Coco Melors]

I know, I know. It's so. Oh, it's so good. I mean, it's like. And you have the kind of, like, Seattle skyline in the background. Like, it's just. It's great. All of it is so great. Like, their whole dynamic together is that she is never defanged, which I really like. Like, in the. It's not just her being like, no, don't hit me with the paint. Like, she, like, whacks him in the paint. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

She truly fucking gets him. Like, just in general, I think it really speaks to Julia Stiles gift as an actress. And, like, the fact that she's an 18.

[Coco Melors]

Wait a minute. I'm so sorry we haven't talked about the poem.

[Caroline]

That's what I was about to talk about.

[Coco Melors]

I know I'm like, this is crazy, because the poem remains. I mean, I know it off by heart.

[Caroline]

Do you want it?

[Coco Melors]

No. I basically want it read at my funeral.

[Caroline]

No.

[Coco Melors]

I won't waste the precious minutes reciting it from scratch. But I did, you know, I was reading sort of anecdotes about this film, and they shot it in one take. She just did it once.

[Caroline]

The crying was unplanned.

[Coco Melors]

The crying was unplanned. And it just. I. I love those kind of moments where it's so pure. Like, it's just. It, like, goes beyond the script, beyond the filming. Like, there's just. That is Julia Stiles just raw emotion. And, like, she was saying it was because she'd had such an amazing experience on this film. And it was. They shot it right at the end. And so she started to cry because she just felt this, like, amazing sense of gratitude, but also sadness that it was over. I know.

[Caroline]

I think what's so powerful about it as well is because, like, the character. It's very much such a character journey for Cat Stratford. Like, her beginning is like this, like, tough as nails, like, kind of, like, uninviting to watch bitch. Because she sort of, like, cuts everyone off.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And it makes. Makes it, like, scenes don't really progress that well. And then she kind of, like, softens a bit, and she's just like, oh, it turns out she's not a tough bitch. She's just a, you know, a teen girl who wants to be kissed like every other teen girl wants to be kissed. And then by the time that you get to that final scene where she's reading the poem and. And she's, like, so vulnerable and crying, and you're like, oh, she's also just a little girl.

[Coco Melors]

I know. But once again, she's the performer. It's like she is a little girl, but she is also someone who's expressing herself. Like, it's her words that we're hearing, it's not his. Usually the woman is the muse for the poem, but it's the other way around in this film. And I think this proves to me that nothing is inherently embarrassing if committed to. If I got up and read a poem in front of my high school choir and burst into tears, I would feel that I had to move to Australia. I would have to swap places with Heath Ledger because I would feel so humiliated because I experienced vulnerability as very embarrassing as a teenager. And it's not embarrassing. Like, you watch that scene and she walks out of the class. But there's no sense of like, oh, my God, how could she ever show her face again? She literally read a poem. He's just there. He's sitting there, right there. And it doesn't feel embarrassing at all.

[Caroline]

I hate that you call.

[Coco Melors]

I know.

[Caroline]

Oh, it's so embarrassing.

[Coco Melors]

It's so horrible.

[Caroline]

You just feel her pain so deeply.

[Coco Melors]

I know, but it's also, I think, like, the feeling. When I was growing up, it felt like to be emotional was embarrassing. And maybe this is quite English. Like, I don't know if maybe in America you changed a bit, but you are Irish, so I feel like. And to be a girl, it was like, oh, just like being an emotional girl, being a heartbroken girl. And it's like, it's not like, in that moment, like, she's. I just think it's. She just comes across as, like, it's. She's so lovable to me in that moment, like. And she's cool. Like, I think it's fucking cool. That perm. I think it's great.

[Caroline]

I think it's cool.

[Coco Melors]

I do. And she, you know, like, she's the only one that raises her hand to do it. Like, she's fucking confident.

[Caroline]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Coco Melors]

I can't. I mean, I remember that feeling in class with the teacher being like, anyone want to volunteer their work? And, like, I still feel like I still don't want to volunteer my work. And I am a literal, professional writer.

[Caroline]

It's such a perfect thing, though, when you're at that, you know, your age and again, you're feeling all these huge emotions for the first time and you can't handle them. And the only thing that's worse than saying, then keeping them in is saying them out loud kind of thing. Or the other way around is she's like. She kind of has no choice. She's like, I have to unburden myself.

[Coco Melors]

It's also, you know, Kat, for me is like, she's such a Renaissance woman in this film. Like, she plays guitar. She plays, like, footy. She writes poetry. She gets into Sarah.

[Caroline]

She has such a full life.

[Coco Melors]

She gets into Sarah Lawrence. She's obviously a really good student. Heath Ledger's character. I'm actually forgetting his name in the film. I'm like, patrick. Oh, Patrick. And, like, he is just like, patrick Patrick Verona.

[Caroline]

It's Shakespeare, of course.

[Coco Melors]

How could I forget? He really has nothing going on in comparison.

[Caroline]

No. He smokes.

[Coco Melors]

He smokes. I guess he has the woodshot. There is a point where he's, like, dipping a rod of iron.

[Caroline]

Yeah. He's always Doing. Or he's like. He's always doing, like, manly things. Like he's playing pool in the house. Random.

[Coco Melors]

He can play pool, Biker bar. But he really has nothing going on in comparison to, like, as far as we can tell. Like, because you would think traditionally that he would be the one in the band, you know, he would be the sort of rock and roll. But actually, like, he has no skills.

[Caroline]

As far as we can tell. And you can so see how you would get, like, whipped up in someone. Like Cat being like, I just want to see what she's up to.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, exactly. What's she doing?

[Caroline]

Also, the weird bum note that sort of happens at the end of a lot of, like, teen dramas is like, obviously they're in senior year. You always make your characters in senior year because you want them to have as much independence as possible. Right. And so they're going off to college. She's going across the country. It's like, what's going to happen to them? He's going to college. Enjoy your summer, guys. It's not going to be much after that.

[Coco Melors]

It's so true. And it's never acknowledged.

[Caroline]

Never what? Never really do. I don't think she should. I think she should have a main summer with Patrick and then she should go off to Sarah Lawrence and start her life anew.

[Coco Melors]

But that's what's so wonderful about these shows. It's like, oh, like this film is like, the emotions are as if it's the most important relationship of your entire life. But the reality is, I guess some people do marry their high school sweetheart, you know, But.

[Caroline]

But that's not the point of it with Patrick.

[Coco Melors]

That's not the point.

[Caroline]

It's like, oh, they're just here to understand each other and feel understood.

[Coco Melors]

And it's exactly. Cause the emotional stakes are very high, but the life stakes are actually very low.

[Caroline]

And so that we're talking three months. Yeah, exactly. Shelf life.

[Coco Melors]

Which I think is why these films feel so safe, you know, because it's like, you know that everyone's gonna be okay. You know, they're teenagers.

[Caroline]

They'll be fine.

[Coco Melors]

Like, life will go on. But it's wonderful to occupy that emotional moo you for a period of time where you're like, everything. Cause it's still. Everything feels so big. And it should.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it should.

[Coco Melors]

It should. And Bianca and Cat are sort of like, friendly at the end. They're sweet to each other.

[Caroline]

I know. I love when Bianca goes sailing with Cameron.

[Coco Melors]

Go sailing. I know she might sail.

[Caroline]

Like, that's exactly what you should be doing, Bianca. No more hanging out with mean people.

[Coco Melors]

No, exactly. Exactly. One of the things I also love is that Bianca is giving the credit of really going off Joey on her own before she even learns.

[Caroline]

Yeah, well, she thinks he's boring. Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

She's just like. I mean, he's like, showing her his modeling photos. Like she's rolling her eyes. Like she is actually, like she's knowing Bianca in a way that does undercut the kind of airheady, you know, they could have made her much more silly, I think.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Coco Melors]

And like, actually she's pretty with it. Like, the thing of, like, women being sort of spiky and clever and still allowed to be romantic leads and not like that's. I feel like Kat is a good example of that is that they don't. I think the thing that I'm always afraid of when they have characters like Kat is that usually they, like, they have to be humiliated, you know, and hurt somehow. And like, Cat is like, her humiliation is pretty light. Like, she does a fantastic dance at a party and then she throws up. But in private, like, only in front of Patrick.

[Caroline]

Her humiliation is that he won't kiss her because she's pissed.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah. And that's a really nice moment that he doesn't. He's like, you won't remember this. And of course, in that moment, I understand why she feels rejected. But we, as the audience, I was like, good for fucking you. That's what I'm talking about, is that Patrick is an old fashioned gentleman. Actually beneath the surface, even that line.

[Caroline]

With what he says is. It's very quaint how he says it. And on reflection, you shouldn't really hang out with someone who insults your sister. But what he says is, I know everyone digs your. Your sister, but to me, she's without.

[Coco Melors]

I know.

[Caroline]

Which is a very classy way of saying someone's a dumb bitch.

[Coco Melors]

I was actually thinking that because I was like, without. I'm like. I don't know if that was like, slang, like west coast slang.

[Caroline]

I think it's him being like, I live with my granddad. Yeah. This is something he might say.

[Coco Melors]

It's a perfect way of choosing Cat and siding with her. But of course, without having to, like, fully neg Bianca, which would be not nice because it's like, it is neggy. But saying someone's weak without is like, it's subtle enough, you know, if you finish the sentence like, she's without class or like she's without brains or she's without beauty like that feels like a full insult. But it's just a sort of vague.

[Caroline]

Enough way of saying that kind of implication of she's missing something.

[Coco Melors]

She's missing something that you have. Yes, exactly. Which also I think is true because Cat is also older and Bianca in two years time will probably be more like Kat. But Bianca is in a real. Bianca changes in the film. Cat doesn't so much. She changes in that she lets her defenses down a little bit. But in terms of her basic how she presents herself to the world, how she moves through the world, it remains very consistent, which is actually what I love about her is the clay has sort of dried in terms of who she is.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. She's gonna be this way forever, actually. Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

Like, this is her. We know her essence. Whereas Bianca goes from being the ultimate yes girl, you know, to being. To punching this guy in the face in the middle of the dark dance floor. Which is amazing.

[Caroline]

It's great. I know.

[Coco Melors]

Which is not without of her. It's very with.

[Caroline]

Of her. Very, very with energy. Very with. You're an extremely fashionable woman. I've been adoring your outfit this entire time. Just undressing you. My eyes. But we gotta talk very briefly before we end this podcast today on the fashion. Because I think all the fashion dates really well in this movie.

[Coco Melors]

I think so too.

[Caroline]

But it's also very reformation core.

[Coco Melors]

It's very refor. But that's because reformation is pulling from that time.

[Caroline]

Yes, totally. It's very much a late 90s sort of like casual separates time.

[Coco Melors]

One of the things I love is that Bianca's prom outfit is actually, I think, not what you would expect of her. Like, Cat goes very classically feminine. And did you notice that Cat is wearing the pearls to prom?

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Coco Melors]

Which. So that kind of. It comes back again. But she wears, you know, like a.

[Caroline]

Two piece slip in the tutu. Yes.

[Coco Melors]

Like the two two. It's actually quite like Betsey Johnson. Like, it's a bit more punk than you would expect for Bianca, which I really loved. And that again is like, it's a little nod to the transition of her character from this quite twee hyper feminine to like. I mean, it's still very feminine. It's pink, it's floofy. But like, it's not sexy at all. It's not trying to be. It's fun.

[Caroline]

What's lovely about it is that it's like, it's acknowledging I'm still a kid and it's. But also that I'm also a Person who knows what they want. And like, I'm tough as well. Like, I'm a tough kid. I'm not pretending to be some adult sexual woman yet I'm having fun with my quite innocent boyfriend at his quite innocent prom. And they're just like having a nice time together and they're gonna go off.

[Coco Melors]

On a bloody sailboat. Yeah, exactly. Quite literally gonna sail into the sunlight.

[Caroline]

And that is kind of like what it's very much telegraphed with that relationship. And how she's dressed towards the end of the movie, is that like, oh, Bianca's got plenty of time, you know, she doesn't need to rush this. She doesn't need to rush into going out with someone like Joey who's scary, you know, like, just take your time. Wear a tutu, go sailing.

[Coco Melors]

I know. And then Kat's outfit, she's wearing the purple and she's got the kind of purple, like sort of pashmina. And she's gone actually very traditional. She's got her hair slicked back. She puts the red rose behind her ears.

[Caroline]

That's a very triggering updo. I think we all have a picture of ourselves at something. A gel backed bun that's way too high.

[Coco Melors]

I know, with the sort of crispy curl.

[Caroline]

Such a crispy curl.

[Coco Melors]

But in general, her clothing is great. I would say, like she looks very cool throughout the whole film. And she's got her leather jacket like it's 90s. It's very, it's like very. It's grunge light, you know?

[Caroline]

Yes, yes.

[Coco Melors]

And Bianca, she's, I mean, angry girl.

[Caroline]

Music of the indie rock persuasion.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, exactly. Bianca's clothing for me is less memorable. It's like little spaghetti strap dresses and like cardigans.

[Caroline]

She's got this little like sort of bright, bright red mini dress that I'm a big fan of.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, yeah, that's a great outfit. That is really good what she wears to the party. And I have to say, Gabrielle Union's character has some really nice outfits.

[Caroline]

Gorgeous.

[Coco Melors]

And obviously she is stunning. So, like, she has a lot of moments, like fashion wise, where I think she looks great.

[Caroline]

You know who I love as well, who's a small character? The English teacher.

[Coco Melors]

Oh my God, he's fantastic. He's so funny.

[Caroline]

He's so, so good. And I can't remember the actor's name, but he was also, if you ever watched Veronica's Closet, but I was looking into him last night and very sadly, he was like, he was a rapper, a comedian. He was, he was doing A lot of stuff. He was doing stuff with like Chris Rock and Eddie Murphy and all that. He was of that class. And then he was in a very serious motorbike accident and he is now paralyzed below the waist. So he's done a lot in terms of like, you know, talking about disability and actors and making the industry better for disabled actors. But yeah, it's like that kind of role he was able to do and what he does so amazingly in this film. Film was kind of cut short. It's really sad.

[Coco Melors]

That's really sad because he again, it's like, I think that's what makes like a character actor so incredible. I don't know if he's a character actor. I'm sure he's leads in other things, but when you're given, you know, just a few lines, but you become so memorable. And his antagonistic relationship with Cat where he is just. It's like when she, even when she's being earnest, he assumes that she is giving him shit. And yet you still like him and are on his side. Like he could come across as a sort of bullying teacher, but he really doesn't.

[Caroline]

You're like so charming.

[Coco Melors]

He's so charming and he's so right about things. Like when Kat is constantly complaining about things from the feminist perspective, which I agree with what she's saying. But he's like, well, do you think that I'm not teaching anything by a black man right now? Just kind of calling her up. And then the white Rastafarians being like, yes, man. And then he's like, do not get me started on you.

[Caroline]

I know, it's very like, oh, wow, 1999. And we're talking intersectionality.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, exactly. I know, it's good.

[Caroline]

I love they kept it in the film. It's done the thing that a writer dragon, but that doesn't often make the cut. And it feels like it made the cut because his delivery is so charming.

[Coco Melors]

And it doesn't feel preachy and it doesn't feel heavy handed. It feels right and it's bloody true. So it feels in there.

[Caroline]

A school in Seattle would be having these conversations in the late 90s.

[Coco Melors]

Yes, exactly. And then there's that great moment where he like wraps a sonnet again. What I'm saying, nothing is embarrassing. Nothing is embarrassing if committed to. And it's like. And it's really cool.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it is really cool. Cool. Okay. I finally got, I finally got some Internet in the booth. And just to say that Mr. Morgan, the English teacher is played by Daryl Mitchell and the David Krumholtz plays Michael Ekman. That was the. Michael. Is that the name?

[Coco Melors]

Oh, Michael. Not Ben or.

[Caroline]

No, not Ben or Andrew. And Bianca, the actress is called Larissa Olenek.

[Coco Melors]

Larissa Olenek.

[Caroline]

The names we didn't say.

[Coco Melors]

All the names we didn't say. That's a nice title for something.

[Caroline]

All the names we didn't say.

[Coco Melors]

That's giving ya romance.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, you might come out, you never know. So, Coco, we gotta wrap this up, but your novel Blue Sisters is now in paperback. Do you want to tell us any more about it?

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, sure, I guess. Well, we've just been talking so much about sisters, which is perfect. So Blue Sisters is the story of three sisters on the one year anniversary of of their fourth sister's fourth sister's death. The three sisters are extremely different, but still very close. The youngest is a model living in Paris. The middle sister is a boxer living in la, and the eldest is a lawyer living in London. And they all come back together to New York to stop the sale of their family home and reckon with life in the wake of their other sister Nikki's death. And it's a sort of like musing on grief, I would say, and an ode to loving life in the way sake of loss.

[Caroline]

Can I ask? Because I've always wanted to write a family novel and I've always been paranoid because, like my family will just read into anything that's about like a. Any configuration of a lot of people living in one house who are related. Oh, that's about me. Did you have to navigate that with your siblings?

[Coco Melors]

I think because the sisters are so like. When I told my sisters I was writing a book about sisters, they were like, oh my God, I can't wait to read it. Like, which one's me? And then they read the book and they were like, who the fuck are these people? It was so far. Like the sisters are so far away from anyone I actually even know. Maybe because their careers are so different or just their natures are not really like my family. What has come from my family is the love is the way I feel about my sisters imbues the entire novel and the conflict and the tension and the stickiness and also just that incredible unconditional reward, regard and support. That's what's in there. But in terms of like, I don't even know if there's a single detail from one of my actual sisters. I mean, my oldest sister, I have.

[Caroline]

Perfect faith that this is a single detail. But in my experience, if I Call any character mum or dad. Mum and dad are on fairly shortly about it.

[Coco Melors]

Oh. I mean, so I think, like my. I mean, it's funny because I. My mum is my, like, first reader.

[Caroline]

Really. Wow.

[Coco Melors]

And an amazing reader.

[Caroline]

I cannot believe. That's incredible to me.

[Coco Melors]

Yeah, she really. And she's such a good reader and she's so helpful. And I often write books with sort of bad mothers at the center. And I. Because I don't know why, it's almost like I don't want to touch my own relationship with my mother, like, which is so precious to me. And so, I mean, maybe in my first book, Eleanor and her mother would be the closest to my. But even then, it's not. It's not really it. Like, I think I make the dynamics so different with the parents because, like, while my parents are alive, I just can't. Like, actually I was doing an interview yesterday and someone was asking about my parents and my family and I was just like, I just can't even. I can't even really touch it somehow. Like.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

[Coco Melors]

I think it does go through the sort of fun house mirror of like, things do come out in the fiction unconsciously that I think about in my own family. Like, obviously, I've talked very openly about the fact I come from a family with a lot of alcoholism, and my book is a lot about alcoholism and I'm sober and my siblings are sober and my parents are sober. It's like, it's really touched every single generation in my family. But I wanted to explore it with characters that are very different than my family. But of course, they're grappling with some of the same issues. The people that I did and that my family did.

[Caroline]

Gosh. God. So, like. Yeah, well done. Yeah. No, like, it's just very rare to have women talk publicly about alcoholism and particularly in a way that's. That's artistic. You know, I think there's this real pressure and I'm sure you felt a certain extent of this pressure and it's. I'm sure you've gone backwards and forwards in your own head of like, how much the kind of female led attention economy is to do with confessing and confessing and confessing and how much that kind of can nudge up against the fact that you want to artistically deal with these subjects versus. And where does, you know, where does the market interpret, you know, oh, let's get Coco Malloy's in her confession about alcohol colorism versus you investigating something artistically in a literary Sense, you know, I mean, I can.

[Coco Melors]

I remember when I published my first book, I was asked to write a. And I write fiction. You know, my first book was not at all based on my life. And then I was asked to write a personal essay, and I was sent all these examples, and it was just this sort of buffet of female trauma. It was like, pick your topic. Like, abortion, rape, miscarriage, like, toxic relationships, abuse, loose. Like, there was nothing other than that. And I just didn't do it. Like, I was like, I don't. I don't want to write anything like that. Not that I think that any of.

[Caroline]

Those people did write. Anybody out there is being pressured to write those kinds of articles. They do not move the needle at all.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, no, it's not necessary.

[Caroline]

People sell their soul for 50 cents on those things, and they will not move the needle. They will not sell an extra copy of your book. Just don't write them unless you really want.

[Coco Melors]

Unless you want.

[Caroline]

Unless you really want to. But, like, don't be told that you want to.

[Coco Melors]

For lots of people who write nonfiction, I actually think it makes sense because they're already writing about their life, and so they write these passion essays. The only time I did it, and it was something I thought really carefully about, is for Vogue, I wrote an essay about sobriety. And I really wanted the topic to be sobriety, you know, not like. Not the humiliations and pain of drinking, which I. Which, of course, is part of the.

[Caroline]

Story or sharing your own personal low or whatever.

[Coco Melors]

Exactly. Like, I wanted it to be a story that's about, like, this thing is this, like, beautiful gift in my life, and I got to. And I'm lucky enough to have it. And there's nothing shameful at all about being sober or needing to be sober. And now that feels very kind of. I think there's a lot of, like, Gen Z or Gen Z, because I'm in England, but are very sort of sober, curious and open to that. Super curious, yes. But my. Especially being English, when I told people in England that I was sober, it was like. It was like I was telling them that I had, like, a terminal illness, which actually, I guess I do because I have alcohol. But the attitude was like, oh, my God, like, you have to do that forever. Like, forever, even at your wedding. And I was like, no one will want to marry me if I keep drinking. Like, I am terrified.

[Caroline]

You're so right. That's so funny.

[Coco Melors]

And I feel that it's this, like, it's a great thing that happened in my life. That I get to be sober. That I realized I had a problem and I stopped, like. And now my life is so much better. So I wrote about it. And it's the only time. And I don't think I'll do it again. And I'm really glad I did because I trusted the editor at Vogue and I trusted Vogue. But I was like, it's a topic that I'm fascinated by, but I really like to explore in fiction, because I'm not. My own life story is not that interesting. It's limiting. I like to explore characters, and I'm interested in people whose lived experience is different than my own, but whose emotional experience might echo my own. And that's. I think, the most exciting thing is to take an emotion I've experienced.

[Caroline]

Isn't it amazing that as authors that we have to explain that every single time we have a book out?

[Coco Melors]

Every single time? I would say, like, the only. I don't regret anything in my career all my life, because I'm really happy with. I ended up. And maybe the only thing I would have changed in my whole career is making Cleo blonde. I just don't think if I had.

[Caroline]

It's so pathetic, isn't it?

[Coco Melors]

I know, but it was.

[Caroline]

If she was a redhead, then that would be fiction.

[Coco Melors]

If I had known. I actually just saw a clip when I was driving over here of Pandora interviewing the writer. Oh, God, I can't believe I'm forgetting who wrote Bridget Jones. Helen Fielding. And she was saying, if I had known how widely read she would be, I never would have written her as freely as I did, you know, And I think with Cleopatra and Frankenstein, because I wrote that for five years without an agent, without a. You know, it took so long to get published. No one wanted it. I did write it very freely. Like, I wasn't worried that I didn't think no one was gonna care about me. So I was like. Sort of like. I knew that Cleo wasn't me. I knew I had made it all up. So I felt like, oh, why? Even I don't have to do anything to hide that, because it's true. I didn't realize that having Herbie blonde and British and a similar instance, the.

[Caroline]

Way that people think about it, is a smoking gun.

[Coco Melors]

I made her blonde, actually. Just because at the time, I felt so far away from her, I couldn't get her. I didn't think she felt alive on the page. So I thought if I gave her a couple of my things, like I've said, you know, I gave Her. The cigarettes I used to smoke. I gave her my old sheepskin coat. Like, I gave her these, like, talismanic objects. And it's. Being blonde in the world is something I was like, oh, just. It'll be interesting to watch her navigate that, because you do get attention in a certain. And it's not always positive, and sometimes it is, you know, but, like. Yes. If I had just made her auburn.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly. A color. Color that almost nobody is. But fictional characters and books seem to be a lot. We need to go. But I had that same thing where by the time I got to the Rachel incident, I was so sick of, like, every time I put out a book and having to sort of an interviewer or. And it's not the interviewer's fault. It's just that people want to read certain things about books, and it's. Whether or not the book is true.

[Coco Melors]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And it's that thing of, like, journalists lowering their standards to the lowest common denominator of what their editor expects from the lowest reader.

[Coco Melors]

Do you know what I mean? Yes, exactly.

[Caroline]

And it's so frustrating. So by the time Rachel came around, I was. Do you know what? She's from Cork, and she's the exact same age as me.

[Coco Melors]

I know.

[Caroline]

I don't fucking care anymore. I know. It's fiction. That's all that matters.

[Coco Melors]

I find myself doing it. Like, I remember reading, like, Eleanor Ferrante's novels back to. Back to back. And in the books, you know, she writes in first person, which I think. And I was like, oh, she has daughters. Oh, wait. But in this book, she has a son. And I'm like, yes, because it's not Eleanor. Well, we don't know who she is. But I was so. But it was so. I was like, how could she have made this up? It's so realistic. But it's. I'm like, that's fiction.

[Caroline]

That's what we're in the game for.

[Coco Melors]

And especially with Cleopatra and Frank's. I know. Like, I write from seven different perspectives, four of which are men in their 40s. And yet somehow I was still apparently writing my life. Like, I just. It's, like, so insane to me. But I think for me, it's the. In some ways, I'm like, it's obviously a high praise because someone is just like. It feels so real.

[Caroline]

It must be.

[Coco Melors]

But actually, as we know, it's sometimes really hard to write about the real things that happened in your life, and it's a lot easier to write.

[Caroline]

There's also a lot of real things that really happen. Do you feel fake?

[Coco Melors]

Exactly. Like, coincidence is really hard to do in fiction.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Coco Melors]

Everyone hates fake fakes, which is a huge part of life.

[Caroline]

You know, that's a big thing that people hate about the. Not hate, but they feel mixed with about the end of the Rachel incident. Really? There's a massive coincidence that happens at the end. And to me, it's when he's, like, her physiotherapist. Oh, of course. Right. Oh, that felt like.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, yeah, that happens.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. To me, it feels, like, weird in the way life is weird, you know?

[Coco Melors]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Caroline]

Other than, like, convenient. Anyway, we have to go. I'm here for two hours.

[Coco Melors]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

I don't know how I'm going to edit this down to a normal length, but, Coco, this has been absolutely incredible. I've loved my morning with you so much, so much.

[Coco Melors]

Thank you so much.

[Caroline]

Thank you.