Continental Garbage: Hook (1991)

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Episode Summary: "Continental Garbage: Hook (1991)" Hosted by Caroline O'Donoghue and Jen County

Introduction In this episode of Sentimental Garbage, Caroline O'Donoghue and her co-host Jen County embark on an introspective journey through their recent trip to Norway while delving deep into the 1991 film Hook. Balancing personal anecdotes with a comprehensive film analysis, the hosts explore themes of childhood, masculinity, and familial relationships, all set against the backdrop of their Scandinavian adventure.

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Trip to Norway: Overcoming Obstacles and Embracing the Experience The hosts begin by reflecting on their long-desired trip to Norway, a journey repeatedly postponed due to the pandemic. Jen recounts their fifth attempt to finally make the trip happen:
“We made it here and we've been here for five days and we're here to tell you that Norway is a bloody treat. Lovely stuff.” [01:54]

Their itinerary kicked off in Bergen, chosen primarily for its renowned scenic train journey to Oslo. Despite initial fears of incessant rain—a common stereotype about Bergen—the reality surpassed expectations with enchanting snowfall transforming the city into a winter wonderland: “It was a constant snow. A constant magical fall of snow every day we were in Bergen, it snowed so thickly and so beautifully.” [14:18]

The duo navigated Bergen’s charm, from its picturesque fish markets to the breathtaking views atop Mount Floyen via a funicular railway. The trip culminated in Oslo, where they indulged in a lavish naked spa experience, highlighting Norway's blend of luxury and natural beauty.

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Personal Milestones: Achieving Goals and Personal Growth Jen proudly announces the completion of her novel's first draft, a milestone she diligently worked towards throughout Q4: “My Q4 goal was to write the first draft of a novel. And I actually did do that. And I finished it today.” [03:42]

Caroline shares her progress in hosting more gatherings, overcoming previous insecurities: “I have hosted, like, three friends, plus Gavin plus me. So that's a total of five.” [09:20]

Their discussions underscore themes of personal growth, setting and achieving goals, and the importance of supportive relationships in overcoming personal challenges.

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A Day at the Naked Spa: Observations and Reflections One of the most vivid segments of the episode revolves around their experience at Oslo’s extravagant naked spa. The hosts navigate through various themed areas, from art deco saunas to tropical baths, all while commenting on the cultural nuances of Norwegian social interactions: “It's very clear about the fact that it's not sexual. And I think you get in trouble if anything happens.” [28:56]

They humorously recount their interactions and the surreal ambiance: “We're just sitting here in our Jim Jams recording a podcast.” [29:18]

This segment touches on themes of vulnerability, societal norms around nudity, and the dynamics of being present in such an uninhibited environment.

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Film Analysis: Hook (1991) – A Deep Dive into Its Cult Status Transitioning from personal experiences to cinematic critique, Caroline and Jen dissect Steven Spielberg’s Hook. They discuss its initial commercial failure juxtaposed with its eventual status as a cult classic, attributing much of its enduring appeal to Robin Williams’ and Dustin Hoffman’s performances: “Robin Williams hot. So hot. So hot.” [92:26]

They examine the film’s narrative structure, character development, and thematic depth, highlighting its exploration of lost childhood and the complexities of parental relationships. Notable moments include their analysis of Dave’s (Robin Williams) emotional journey and the portrayal of Captain Hook (Dustin Hoffman) as both a formidable antagonist and a figure of sympathy.

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Themes of Childhood and Masculinity in Hook The hosts delve into the film’s representation of childhood and masculinity, discussing how Hook portrays the struggle between adult responsibilities and the yearning to reclaim a carefree, adventurous spirit: “This is a film about a father's relationship with his son and he's disappointing his son and his son being disappointed in him.” [75:37]

They connect these themes to broader societal issues, such as the policing of masculinity and the idealization of childhood, offering insights into how the film resonates with contemporary audiences despite its outdated elements.

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Anecdotes and Cultural Interactions: The American Tourist and More Interspersed with their film analysis, Caroline and Jen share amusing anecdotes from their travels, including an encounter with an American tourist overly fixated on ancestral ties: “She was like, oh, my God. I was just in Ireland there.” [55:55]

These stories provide a humorous contrast to their in-depth discussions, illustrating the varied experiences of travelers and the cultural misunderstandings that can arise.

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Final Thoughts: Embracing the Magic and Challenges of Adventure As the episode draws to a close, Caroline and Jen reflect on the enriching yet challenging aspects of their Norwegian escapade and the emotional depth of Hook. They express a longing for more live-action family adventures in cinema and advocate for storytelling that authentically captures the complexities of human relationships and personal growth: “I think it's so splendid. I think it's so fantastic and such an amazing example of what great fantasy storytelling can be on screen that we don't get enough of these days.” [108:33]

Their concluding remarks emphasize the enduring power of storytelling in both personal journeys and cinematic narratives, encouraging listeners to seek out experiences that foster growth and understanding.

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Notable Quotes:

• "We made it here and we've been here for five days and we're here to tell you that Norway is a bloody treat. Lovely stuff." – Caroline [01:54]

• "My Q4 goal was to write the first draft of a novel. And I actually did do that. And I finished it today." – Jen [03:42]

• "I'm pure. My Q4 goal was to write the first draft of a novel." – Jen [03:42]

• "It's not even like a language barrier because they had perfect English. They were just these men who had been left behind." – Caroline [17:18]

• "Robin Williams hot. So hot. So hot." – Jen [92:26]

• "We have all the lovely scenes in London, which is very twinkly, idealized version of London." – Caroell [53:51]

Conclusion In "Continental Garbage: Hook (1991)", Caroline and Jen expertly blend personal travel experiences with a nuanced analysis of a beloved yet flawed film. Their candid conversations offer listeners both relatable travel tales and thoughtful cinematic insights, making for an engaging and enriching episode of Sentimental Garbage.

Transcript

[A]

Hello there. This is just a reminder that Continental Garbage is ever so slightly different to sentimental garbage in that it's sort of part postcard and part film club. So if you want to sit down and read the postcard, you can start listening from now. But if you'd prefer to just skip to the film discussion, you can look at the timestamp in the episode notes and skip straight to there. Okay, enjoy. Hello and welcome back to Continental Garbage, the podcast where we can fly, crow, fight and go to Norway. My name is Caroline and death is the only adventure I've got left. Joining me is my favorite near sighted gynecologist suffering from Peter Pan envy. It's Jen County. That was one of the insults that Rufio gave. Or one of them.

[B]

Oh, some fantastic insults.

[A]

Fantastic insults. But Nearsighted Gynecologist was my favorite one.

[B]

That is a very good one, actually. I'm neither nearsighted nor a gynaecologist, as it happens, just in case you were wondering.

[A]

But we are in Norway.

[B]

We bloody are finally in Norway. We talked about this, did we not? I think when we did the one Norwegian film that exists in the world.

[A]

Yeah. Which is the worst person in the world.

[B]

The worst person in the world. We talked about the fact that we had spent many years thinking of going to Norway. Almost going to Norway.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not going to Norway.

[A]

During the pandemic, several times we planned a trip to Norway and then we kept not.

[B]

And then end of 2024, you texted me and you were like, hey, what if we went to Norway? And I was like, yeah, go on then. Fifth time lucky. Maybe we'll get to Norway this time. And I honestly didn't believe that we would on some level. You said this. As we met at the airport, we were both convinced that something would happen. We'd be grounded.

[A]

I was convinced you'd get Covid.

[B]

I'd get Covid. I was like, you'll get stuck in Ireland, something weird will happen.

[A]

But no, we made it here and we've been here for five days and we're here to tell you that Norway is a bloody treat. Lovely stuff.

[B]

As we left England to fly to Norway, we were like, either this will be the shittest holiday we've ever been on, or it will be magical.

[A]

Thank God, to give everyone a redux. Or maybe if you've just like joined this and you weren't with us over the summer, where were you? Where were you? What a time we all had during the summer. Me and this person, that's me, went interrailing Through Italy, Slovenia and Croatia. And we did like a little film diary as we went, starting with travel update at the beginning of the episode and then ending with the film discussion that went. A film. And then. And were we filming this? Never. I would never do that.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And can I just say, while we're on the subject, that, like, the idea that podcasts are now becoming filmed ventures.

[B]

Is disgusting to me. I hate it. Disgusting.

[A]

I will never do it. You'll never see my face. Move and speak. That is a customer promise. So, yeah. We went around Europe with that and did continental garbage. And now we're doing it again. We're here with the redux. We ended the last season with a trip to Portugal and also some goals. We did what our Q4 would bring.

[B]

We made some big commitments for Q4, and we thought we should probably report back in the kind of transparent.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Agreement we have with our listeners. Did we do our Q4 goals?

[A]

Do you want to go first?

[B]

Yeah. Okay. My Q4 goals. Those. Those who may think that will remember that at the end of our summer season, I was being a 10 in the head, but 10 in the heart and 10 in the world. But my Q4 goal had nothing to do with boyfriends, which is great because I haven't so much as touched a man since then. I'm pure. My Q4 goal was to write the first draft of a novel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I actually did do that.

[A]

And you finished it today.

[B]

I finished it today. Like, I really.

[A]

So nice.

[B]

I really put to the end of the year that I actually technically finished it on the 30th, and then I did some edits before it goes away tomorrow. But I'm so proud of myself.

[A]

I'm so proud of you. Thanks. Well done. Thank you. This is an ambition you've been nursing for a long time. Yeah. And I'm just so pleased for you that, like, it's just incredible, man. Like, it's incredible to, like, to welcome you into the profession.

[B]

Well, I mean, I haven't made into the profession just yet.

[A]

It's a. You've got an agent. It's fine. But you're. You're in the profession. You're in the whole hall of Fellows with me. But the. And also, it's just like, you know, not to overshare your personal life and we can cut this out if it's too personal. But, like, you had to go to some places this summer in your heart, in your head with. With boys and relationships and stuff. And like, I just remember during periods of last Summer, you being like super kind of worried about, you know, personal life things and. And that being kind of the main concern of your heart and head during that period. And then, you know, obviously on this holiday like this, you can't help but compare it to the time you were having back during the summer, the last time we were traveling and I was like, oh, my God, she's like a new person, you know, like you're. You're so engaged in something that like, brings you so much joy as opposed to trying to wring life out of something that was dying. And it's a gorgeous energy. All energies from Gen county are my favorite energies. But I'm just so pleased for you to like to watch someone really go through the fire of like a mid-30s breakup, which is a tough time to have a breakup.

[B]

I don't recommend it.

[A]

And have all their mind and their beauty and their art committed to one project and to succeed and to finish.

[B]

It, like, finish the project.

[A]

Of all the people who start novels in the world, the percentage of people who finish them is so fucking small. Like, well done.

[B]

Thank you. Listen, I don't think it's a coincidence that my head was full of less anxiety about my relationship status.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think those two. We talked about this, I think when, when we were away. And again, you can cut this out, it's too personal for you. And you said to me, I think one of the reasons that I'm so able to kind of sink into my fictional world and write is that I've got a really good relationship and I'm not spending 20% of my time worrying about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you just, you just have a good relationship where you're like, I'm in a good place. And I remember listening to that and thinking, I don't have that. I spend a solid two to three hours a day being like, what the fuck's going on here? I don't do that anymore. I spend that time writing things.

[A]

Yeah, wonderful. I love that.

[B]

I love that too.

[A]

My mum told me this, like, very analogy that it's an analogy that she sort of like picked up at the top of her dome and I've been using for almost everything since then.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Which was the analogy of the diving board and the dive. Right.

[B]

So I don't understand it.

[A]

Yeah, I know it sounds like it's a kind of ancient Chinese proverb or something, but it's just my mum saying stuff she said to me one day, she was like, you know, I look at everything you're doing And I feel like Gavin is the stable diving board. This. The life that you've built together as a diving board that just allows you to dive and that you're able to do adventurous things that are scary because you have this sort of home base that is really strong. And it really touched me because it was true. And it was a lovely image, and complimentary, of course. But, like, then I remember meeting a friend, one of my oldest friends, recently low, and she has a toddler at the moment, and she was saying I was asking her for updates, and she was kind of that thing that newish parents often do where they kind of apologize for their life. When she was like, oh, you know, it's just kind of us at the moment. Like, she's like, I've moved to Manchester, but I haven't. I don't really know anything about Manchester. I just. It's all.

[B]

It's a place. I'm there. It's up north.

[A]

It's a place, and I'm there. But it's really all about her right now. It's all about my daughter right now. And I was like, oh, well, Manchester is the diving board, and your baby is the dive. Like, you have this stable thing. You've managed to buy this beautiful home up there, and, like, you can have this dive that is, like, raising this gorgeous kid and giving her a beautiful life. And I just think whatever your diving board is and whatever your dive is, make sure that both are good and solid, you know?

[B]

That's really good advice. Thank you, Noel.

[A]

Thank you, Noel.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Well, yeah, I had a rickety diving board before.

[A]

Hard to do a good dive from a bad diving board. It goes all floppy. Your form isn't gone.

[B]

It was bobbing all over the place. I was like, is it even here? I don't know. But we're in a much better place now. And what about you? Do you remind Willow?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do you remember your Q4 resolution? Because I remember there were two.

[A]

Yes. I had two resolutions, and one of the resolutions was to hostess more.

[B]

And did you do it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes, you did. I knew that already.

[A]

I know. Because you've been the victim of my hosting.

[B]

The victim, sorry. The honored recipient of your benevolence, like a lord from his king.

[A]

You eat from my table, I eat at your table. And the other one was to join a climbing wall, which I did not do.

[B]

Okay. But I think it's nice to have a stretch goal.

[A]

It's nice.

[B]

I feel like even when you said.

[A]

It'S quite literally a stretch goal, Yeah.

[B]

I feel like even when you said it in my head, I was like, nah, she's not gonna do that. With the hosting you've done so well at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's your maximum number so far you've hosted.

[A]

I have hosted, like, three friends, plus Gavin plus me. So that's a total of five.

[B]

That's still very, very low.

[A]

That's loads. And that was a themed evening. Yes, it was.

[B]

I think you've really, like, broken through the fear barrier there.

[A]

I really. So, yeah, I really have. That's the thing, because, like, I think I mentioned on the podcast when I made this goal that, like, I had this very insecure hosting thing. I think part of that was, like, my first proper best friend coming to this country was Ella Risbridger, who is a famous cook. Yes.

[B]

Who is really good.

[A]

Who has taught an entire generation of millennials how to roast chicken. And so when we were in our early 20s, I would just go over there and she would do all the hosting. And then I de facto. Just like that thing you do where. And I often do it with. I think it's a real youngest child thing. I often do it with you, where I'm just like, jen will look after all the travel arrangements.

[B]

And I do.

[A]

I just sort of, like, give responsibility away to people very easily in a way that's, like, vaguely exploitative, but everyone seems fine with it anyway. Then I just didn't learn how to cook, and then I got really insecure about not ever out doing it, and then I just wanted to fix that. And, like, I have hosted themed evenings. I have hosted a vegan dinner party.

[B]

Fucking hell.

[A]

The other day, I was supposed to meet my brother for lunch, and we were trying to decide what pub to go to for a pub roast.

[B]

And then you were just like, no.

[A]

I said, just come over. I'll do us a roast. And he was like, really? It's noon now and I'll be over in an hour. I was like, I can pull a roast together in an hour.

[B]

You can pull a roast together in an hour. This is an extraordinary leap in confidence.

[A]

It really. And it really is a confidence thing.

[B]

I think it's a really important thing to remember because there's still that sense sometimes in your 30s that whatever you are now is what you're going to be forever, and you're somehow so old and past that you can't possibly learn a new thing. You really can. Like, you can so learn new things. And if you are now any age, I'm sure this is true up until about the age of 80. And you're like, I really want to do this thing. I want to do this better. You can do this thing better. You've got to put some time into it. I learned to sew last year. I can do that now. I can make weird wavy linen garments.

[A]

You wrote a novel this year.

[B]

Yeah, I've never done that before. Yeah, actually that's not true.

[A]

I have, but you wrote a what?

[B]

Oh, I've written. I've written a book before. Not a novel. I've written a book before. But yeah, you can do things. You can. You don't. You're not. You're not done after you're 25, you know. Yeah, you can teach a middle aged dog new tricks.

[A]

Are we calling ourselves middle aged?

[B]

You can teach a.

[A]

Well, no one knows how long they're gonna live.

[B]

Yeah, you can teach a no longer juvenile dog new tricks.

[A]

That's true. So we decided that we were going to start in the town of Bergen, city of Bergen. We flew into Bergen from Gatwick for flights that were quite expensive considering we left at the last minute.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But still worth it.

[B]

So worth it. And if we'd wanted to, we could each have taken 56 kilos of luggage because that was the only flight available to us.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

But there's two fat sisters was all we took, which is a duffel bag the size of a small cat. So.

[A]

Yes. And then. So we spent a few days in Bergen and then including New Year's Eve, and then took a seven hour train to Oslo. Ignored Oslo completely.

[B]

Haven't been there. And we walked through the main square to get a bus.

[A]

Seemed fine.

[B]

To where we are now. I think we should leave that.

[A]

The.

[B]

The reveal of where we are now to the end because it's quite something.

[A]

It's quite. Yeah. So let's go through the early days first.

[B]

So Bergen. We booked Bergen mainly because of this train journey. I was like, apparently one of the most beautiful train journeys in the world is from Bergen to Oslo. Oslo to Bergen. We've got to do it. And the way that the flights which were not really available worked, we could get to Bergen and then go down to Oslo and fly out. And there was a moment, there was a real wobble moment there. There was a real. I had to like, you know, grab you by the chin and say, we're not doing room with a view, like you did to me in Ljubljana this summer, where you were like, I've heard Bergen is the rainiest city in Europe. I've Heard it rains all the time. I've heard it rains every single day. And what if we go to Bergen and we're just indoors in the rain?

[A]

Yeah, that was a real fear of mine.

[B]

You were really worried. I felt like we were teetering on the edge of not going to Norway for the sixth or fifth or sixth time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And the thing is, when the flights revealed themselves to be really quite expensive.

[B]

Really quite expensive, I was like, am.

[A]

I really gonna spend this much money to fly on New Year's Eve to a rained out city when I've just spent Christmas in Cork where it rained constantly? Because if there's anything I know about growing up in a coastal city is that it rains constantly. Almost constantly. And I was like, in Cork, having a great time this Christmas, but still being like, I don't know if I can do this if it's gonna be more rain. And then you said no. You took me by the hand and you're like in the face and said, no. We said, norway, we're doing Norway. We will do Norway. And I said very well.

[B]

I said, I said we can do rain. But I also felt in my heart, you know, we have a feeling. You don't want to share it, you don't want to jinx it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I was like, I have a feeling. I just have a feeling that it's not going to rain.

[A]

And it didn't rain.

[B]

It didn't rain.

[A]

It was like a constant snow. A constant magical fall of snow every day we were in Bergen, it snowed so thickly and so beautifully.

[B]

You really understood how much it could rain in Bergen at a warmer time of year.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was a winter wonderland. It was the Bergen of postcards.

[A]

And I've never really been in proper snow before. Obviously every few years in England it snows. And it snowed a couple of times in Cork in childhood. But like a proper, like snow capped wilderness that goes on forever. Thick, thick, thick snow. Fresh powder every few minutes.

[B]

We went up the mountain on the funicular railway.

[A]

Yeah. So Bergen is a little city.

[B]

Fishermen city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Big, I think, actually, isn't it? I don't really know. Yeah. We only saw the middle. We walked around a bit.

[A]

Yeah. But like, what's incredible about it and why it's definitely worth going to is that it's like this gorgeous, cute little Norwegian city that is full of like nice shops and things and nice restaurants and a lovely fish market and all the bougie things you want from like a little city break. But then you can just bang onto a funicular and you're suddenly within five minutes and for about four quid. On a mountain. On a beautiful mountain with these views.

[B]

Over the whole city and kind of the opening to like. I guess it's a fjord, the harbour that leads out to a fjord.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was like we did. We went up there on New Year's Day and we just spent four hours up this. It's called Floyen. I think it's one of the seven mountains around Bergen. Just like prancing around, looking at stuff. Going into the gift shop, having a cup of tea. Climbing up something a bit higher. Looking down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Seeing a frozen lake.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Just going like, wow, wow, wow. It was amazing.

[A]

It was so gorgeous. I will really was the. The best New Year's Day of my life. It was so. I mean, I know New Year's Day isn't generally like a holiday that we mark because it's. It's usually a fog of being hungover and you're in your house or somebody else's house or whatever. But I was like, wow. I really. Something about all the whiteness and blankness and newness and specialness and glitter was like, wow, this is gonna be a great year. Like, it was so beautiful.

[B]

And the night before, we'd been in the harbour where the fishing boats all toot their horns at midnight and everyone acts up for fireworks. But it's not weird and aggressive. Yeah, it's very. It's very elegant. It's very chic.

[A]

Very chic. Although we just for complete transparency, we had this odd moment where we realized that like many, you know, like many places, people kind of regard New Year's Eve as more of a family holiday.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we do have a moment.

[A]

I actually think it's more like UK and Ireland and maybe America who are like, yeah, it's New Year's Eve, let's go outside and get fucked up kind of thing and that. And maybe just sort of major world cities. But like in most places, it's kind of thought of as more of a family holiday.

[B]

Yeah. And everyone had clearly gone either to spend time with their family or to a black tie event. And we'd come in on a plane and went. Sat in the pub with everyone else who had no friends. Yeah, it was quite a crowd.

[A]

It was a real.

[B]

It was really the dregs. Yeah, we were among those dregs.

[A]

We were among those dregs.

[B]

We were the dregs too.

[A]

Almost every pub was closed. So we found this one little pub to hole up in until midnight, where it really was like the leftover Men of Bergen. I've never seen that show the Leftovers, but I assume it was about this pub.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, fortunately it was snowing, so it felt magical.

[A]

Yes. Yes. And there was a sense of, ooh, camaraderie. We're all in here, it's snowing out there. But there was quite a few men that tried to talk to us. And like, I'm good with talking to people. I like to talk to people on holidays just so I can discuss them after they leave. And then. And just the no chat. Fucking wow. And like, it's not even like a language barrier because they had perfect English. They were just these men who had been left behind.

[B]

I would say that was the one theme of Bergen was being talked to by people who had no social skills.

[A]

Because all the really social Norwegian people were with their friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where they should be. They were out.

[B]

But we had. But it was quite nice because actually, rather than going out for a massive rager, we just had a couple of whiskies and then we went and watched the fireworks and then we went to bed and then we went up a mountain and felt like the freshest, cleanest girls in the whole world.

[A]

It was gorgeous.

[B]

And that was basically our whole time in Bergen was go look at some art, wander through the snow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go on a little passenger ferry. Go back on the Little passenger ferry 10 minutes later, there's not much to see there. Sit in the hotel bar and play Dog.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A board game.

[A]

Also, here's another thing that's changed massively for me in Q4 and you are a big part of it as part of sort of a sub genre to my hosting thing, which is playing a board game for the first time in my life by choice.

[B]

Not only by choice, but also when we were on our way, as we were packing for Norway, you texted me and said, shall I bring dog? And I was like, you're bringing a board game on holiday. And you're like, I want to bring dog. And you brought dog. And we played dog so much.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's actually not called Dog, is it?

[A]

It's called Spots.

[B]

So if you're interested in like googling dog game. It's not called that. It's called Spots and it is great.

[A]

But it's just kind of about do. It's like a strategic dice game that's dog themed. But here's why. I think many of you will have friends in the theater, as I do, and other friends, assorted friends. Who are like really interested in board games and live action role play games.

[B]

In an intense way.

[A]

And like, you know, everyone like really enjoys it and they have like separate weekends that I am not involved in with board games and stuff. And like, I have tried a couple of times and it's just. I have no judgment for it. It's just not me. I just don't have the head for it. And also kind of keeping a lot of new rules in your head. I just get anxious and fussy and sort of, I get really insecure and nervous that like my I'm being revealed for being dumb and like it just kind of rubs me up the wrong way, makes me cranky. I don't want any part of it. But I've always been a bit jealous of like this whole thing that you can just do with your pals that like is not drinking or just talking shit. It's just like, oh, we can all do a little activity together that I've always been jealous of. And then you brought spots to my house which we only call dog and it's just this very simple but really engaging kind of game. It's a bit like poker or gin rummy, but played with dice.

[B]

It does feel like something that in a parallel universe there are casinos built around.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so. It takes like 10 minutes to learn.

[B]

So simple. It's a mixture of luck and strategy. You have absolutely trounced me at DOG all week. But I'll come back. I will keep playing it. So we've just had this very wholesome time in Bergen in this kind of like faded mid century glamour hotel where we played DOG and we ate things and we drank things. This is the other great thing I found about Norway. And I recognize I'm going to say this and I fully understand the context in which I say it. Norway is famously expensive, yes, but the famousness of its expensiveness is such that I fully came here like prepared to be fleeced. I was prepared to like be like, I'm going to be in debt, you know, I'll be selling a kidney.

[A]

I'll have to take out a new credit card.

[B]

I'll take out new. It'll be £20 for a water. Yeah, no, I mean it is expensive, sure, but it's expensive in the way that living in London is expensive. And we live in London and I already live there. I'm a middle class person who lives in London and works in the media and I go to festivals and so was I there? Like, well, it was really, really really cheap. No, but I found myself saying over and over again, actually quite reasonable, which I think probably says more about my life than it does about Norway and what it is to live in London. So I'm sure many people listening to this podcast don't live in London will be like, that's insanely expensive. You're right. But I'm just saying, if you do live in a large metropolitan city like London or New York or probably Manchester, you'd go to Norway and you'd be like, yeah, it's like going to a festival. It's like, a little bit more expensive, but not that much. So if you're being put off by the thought that it'll be thousands of pounds for a dinner, it's not.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was quite surprised by it.

[B]

It's nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be.

[A]

Again, as you say, it's the famousness of the expensiveness.

[B]

That's the thing. I. Yeah, I fully like New York is so much more expensive. I've gone to visit friends and been like, I don't understand how people eat here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Or live.

[A]

Yeah. Sydney's pretty bad as well.

[B]

No, I get it.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. And, like, I think what that comes from is also, it's. It's kind of sweet, actually, because it kind of reminds you of a time, sort of before plane travel or like, ancient times, where you would. You didn't know anybody who'd been to France, but you knew of someone who knew of someone who went to France, and they had ghastly tales of abroad. That's how people talk about Scandinavia still, because people don't go that much. When they do, they tend to go for, like, business or something. You don't get that many people going for a holiday, and so they come back with, like, I spent €15 on a water bottle or whatever.

[B]

I don't know where they're doing that.

[A]

No, I don't know where they're doing that either. However, I remember going to Iceland a few years ago. Iceland, I think, is jailbreaking. It was bad.

[B]

I do think Iceland. Maybe it's Iceland just having a halo effect in the whole of Scandinavia. Because I've been to Copenhagen, I've been to Norway now, and I've been like, yeah, it's not. It's far from the. If I'd come straight from Naples to here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, obviously I'd have died at the expensiveness.

[A]

Yeah. But I've just spent Christmas in London, so.

[B]

I spent Christmas in London. And I think there's also that thing you said to me earlier this week where you're like, well, there is this kind of reception, particularly among British people, but probably many other countries, that if you go on holiday, it's somewhere hotter and cheaper than where you live.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Norway is neither of those things.

[A]

And now we gotta talk about where we are right now.

[B]

Can we talk about the train very briefly?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I know we've gone on. I just want to say, if you're coming to Norway, get the seven and a half hour train. You hear seven and a half hours travel. And you think that's bad. Yeah, because seven and a half hours in a car kill me now.

[A]

Seven half hours in a plane.

[B]

I need a week.

[A]

Dose me up.

[B]

I need a week to recover from it. Seven and a half hours on a train winding its way through the Norwegian fjords and mountains from Bergen to Oslo.

[A]

Oh, just incredible.

[B]

Stunning.

[A]

I didn't say a word to you.

[B]

We didn't speak.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, when we did, we both had our headphones in. We just looked at one another and mouthed, wow.

[A]

Yeah, just like staring out the window.

[B]

And it passed in like, what felt like an hour and a half.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was amazing. So anyway, we then got to Oslo, where we didn't stay, and we went to a place, another place that I found by Googling hotels, which is the thing that I do in my spare time, it turns out. And I was like, listen, I found this place. It's a hotel, but it's also a spa. And you were like, cool, I love a spa. And I was like, I know, we both love a spa. We deserve a spa for a day and a half, two days at the end of our holiday. And I said, well, I've looked at all the reviews and only 2 bad reviews or two bad themes in the reviews. And the themes are, one, the spa is so big. The spa is too big. And I was like, I can't imagine a spa.

[A]

And then we were like, how could that be a negative thing? How can that be a spa being.

[B]

Too big, A spa being too big? And the second thing was the spa is a naked spa. And we were like, that's fine. Yes, happy to be naked. I'm not a brute. I'm naked on a holiday situation quite regularly.

[A]

And I would say that specifically in our friendship between naked holidays we've taken together, because whenever we've got this very secluded sort of lake area in France, or we sometimes go with a group.

[B]

Of friends and we're like, why would you Wear. Why would you wear.

[A]

Yeah, there's nobody around for miles.

[B]

Swimming. You're not gonna. Swimming.

[A]

So we all just swim naked. And it's all. It's all very nymphy and feminine, and.

[B]

Everyone feels there's no men there.

[A]

It's always like, you have those days, and then at night, everyone gets really drunk and talks about how they really feel their womanhood that day. It's that kind of a vibe. And so. And also traveling together, like, so we, like. We're very familiar with each other's bodies. There's no shyness there or whatever. Very naked people. And so when we were. Okay, this is a naked spot.

[B]

Like, I was thinking, it's gonna be. Yeah, it's gonna be crunchy. It's gonna be elderly Norwegian women.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm gonna see some dongs that. 80 years old, maybe.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Not the vibe.

[A]

The vibe is so different to that.

[B]

I don't even know how to describe the vibe other than it's like. If you imagine if you've seen the film Spirited Away, where there is the bathhouse of the spirits, and that'll give you a sense of the scale of the thing.

[A]

Yes. Size wise. Yes. Size and choice.

[B]

We walked around. We walked in, and it's like you're in a shopping mall or maybe a West End theater, but it's all spa. And there are different areas, like Disneyland. There's Japan, and there's hammam, and there's art deco, and there's tropical, and there's waterfall cave, and there's standard Jacuzzi, and there's outdoor.

[A]

Three floors.

[B]

It's three floors. And you're just. We sort of wandered around like a pair of, like, lost puppies. Like, what. What do we. What are we doing here? And look, Scandinavian people are famous for good design and being attractive, and those two things are both in evidence. And so I'm largely at this bar.

[A]

Three. Three floors of, like, different sauna, steam pools, baths, some indoor, some outdoor. And everyone's naked. And they're like. I would say the average age is about 27.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And let's. If I say it, they're mostly hot.

[B]

They're mostly hot.

[A]

They're mostly couples.

[B]

It's mostly couples.

[A]

And they're all hot.

[B]

They're all hot.

[A]

And also, we've obviously done a lot of Googling around this. There's like, this. This hotel was, like, built by one of the richest men in Norway. A famous grocery magnate.

[B]

Made his money in groceries and then turned it to nude spa.

[A]

But he also has disseminated his private art collection throughout the hotel, which is mostly of nude men. No, nude women. I've seen.

[B]

I've seen a couple, but like in Japan.

[A]

In Japan. In fake Japan. And so it's like, there's a lot of penis art. There's a lot of like blue light.

[B]

There's a lot of very well lit areas.

[A]

Yes. And also I. We haven't discussed this yet, but a lot of kind of sort of peeping tommery in the way it's built. Like, for example, you know, it's a sauna and steam room. So you're kind of.

[B]

There's an entry platform.

[A]

There's an entry platform. And there's also, you know, a showery place where you are expected to rinse off before and after each thing. But like, it's always partially obscured from view. So if you're walking by at an angle, you can sort of see half of someone's ass or tit or cock. And it's like that kind of way in which it's designed sort of encourages the thing where it's not erotic, it's not sexual, but it's also not not sexual.

[B]

It's not. Not that. And they're very clear about the fact that it's not sexual. And I think you get in trouble if anything happens.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But it's a hotel that fucks. It's like, I don't know, I just even. We walked into our room. Our room has a double bed that looks out across the Norwegian landscape. It's a fuck palace. And we're just sitting here in our Jim Jams recording a podcast.

[A]

I know, I know. It's crazy.

[B]

So crazy.

[A]

I can't imagine many other friends I would do this with and feel like as comfortable as I do. Cause it's so. Everything's so fuck. This is like where you like clearly take your girlfriend or boyfriend. I've also noticed, like, very straight. I haven't seen any queer couples.

[B]

Very straight. Very straight place.

[A]

And it's clearly where you take your partner, like as a Christmas gift of being like, time for it. We've been with our family. Time for a sexy time away, just you and me. Time away from the kids or whatever it is. And it's just like it's humming with couples having sex.

[B]

Yeah. Not in front of you, but you.

[A]

Know, they're having sex.

[B]

You're involved in their foreplay.

[A]

That exactly is.

[B]

You are. You're just sort of the backdrop. You're a non playable character in their sex game adventure.

[A]

Yeah. In the Back a non playable character in their sex. Yeah. And you know what? Honored to be it, honestly.

[B]

No regrets about this, but not a single regret in my heart about booking space.

[A]

Oh, it's fine. Fabulous. It's genuinely titillating.

[B]

Into the unknown, as we said.

[A]

Into the unknown. And you're, like, lying there and you're like, in the sauna totally naked. And also, I spent. Because you were to do a little bit of work today on your novel.

[B]

I did.

[A]

And I was there by myself for about three hours today, having a lovely time. But like, every now and then, just like, oh, there are three nude men in the sauna and me nude in this sauna. Are we all gonna fuck or something? That's the way it is. And that thought kind of passes through you, and then it goes away again and you're like, there was no other.

[B]

Situation in my life where I would be in a room naked with lots of other naked, attractive people and wouldn't think, are we gonna fuck?

[A]

I got a bit of a spook yesterday. Remember that? You did? I got a bit of a spook.

[B]

I was there. I was there while you were like, oh, no. Oh, no.

[A]

We really thought. Yeah. So it was like, at one point.

[B]

You said, I think I've quadrupled the number of dongs that I've seen in the last 10 years. And I was like, how? Have you only seen four?

[A]

Yeah, there's so many more.

[B]

300 in here, Gabriel. But they wouldn't have seen them all.

[A]

There was this point where we were just trying to. The sheer scale of the spa was like, let's walk around all of it and, like, just get our bearings, because you could get lost very easily.

[B]

So easily.

[A]

And we were like, okay, let's try this thing. And it was the waterfall cave. And so you walk into a dark room.

[B]

Looks like a cave.

[A]

Looks like a cave. Like you like from caves. And it's kind of. It's a bit of a sort of a walkway thing. There's a guided way of walking through it. And it's totally dark with a few little spotlights, but water gushing at you. And it's really hard to determine how big the space even is. And you can just see through the spray of water. A man who's nude and he's one.

[B]

Foot away from you. Is he six feet away from you?

[A]

You can't tell because of the water blurring your vision. And that's a little odd for someone who's been in a relationship for 10 years and married for one. I was like, Is it okay I'm here?

[B]

Am I?

[A]

Is this, is this? Am I cheating being here?

[B]

The answer is no.

[A]

And we just like rushed back up the room and sent Gavin a really long voice note show us getting our bearings. And then he voiced noted back being like, you girls sound like you've seen a natural disaster.

[B]

Like you've seen a landslide that covered a family of badgers or something. I think he said, I know how it felt but I think we've really settled into it today. We've really found our place.

[A]

We really have. We've found our place.

[B]

If you're listening and you're like, oh, I'm thinking of like a fun and interesting adventure holiday with my friends, you could do this but just be prepared. But if you're wanting to, yeah, have a fun 4 play sex game with non playable characters with your partner. Come to the well in Oslo because it seems like everyone else is doing that.

[A]

I'm loving it.

[B]

I would come back.

[A]

I'm definitely coming back. And I'm loving picking up on. I actually like being a non playable character. I like picking up on the residual horniness of kind of in the air and being like those two are horny over there but like they're not gonna fuck in front of me but they are gonna fuck later in the privacy of their room. And I think that's nice.

[B]

It's so nice. It's just. It's been a lovely experience and just a very well appointed hotel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if I may say so, quite reasonably priced.

[A]

Quite reasonably priced.

[B]

Like it would be the same in London.

[A]

Yeah. I mean this is.

[B]

It'd be less good. It would be weighted on us. Well, like the people who'd be there. Terrible.

[A]

It really helps that we don't know if anyone's annoying because they're all speaking Norwegian. Oh yeah, that's true. Or other language and the like. This is like 240 a night, I believe.

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

And these, the three floor spa experience is completely free. There are no crazy extras, no breakfast.

[B]

Obviously.

[A]

You can buy a massage if you want, but why would you.

[B]

You've got three floors of spa. You'll never do it all.

[A]

Like, like when you consider that's all built in, it's. It's kind of a fucking steal.

[B]

Like the breakfast is very good. It's extensive.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

So there we go.

[A]

That's where we are.

[B]

We've been to Bergen. We've been. We're now at Oslo. And what have we watched this week? Well, a real, A real sort of Sharp turn here from the naked spa in Oslo to the film topic for tonight.

[A]

Yeah. So while everyone else has been fucking in their room, we have been watching the 1991 movie Hook in parts, because that movie is surprisingly long.

[B]

It is, I'd say, Lord of the Rings length.

[A]

It's an epic.

[B]

It's like two and a half hours.

[A]

Yeah. And I love every single frame of it.

[B]

And it was my first time seeing it.

[A]

Yeah. And we actually ended up watching it because I remember in our Tortured Poets Department episode a long time ago, we talked about the song Peter, and you said how you find songs that are about the Peter Pan myth or even, like, in kind of fan fiction or whatever, around the Peter Pan myth as being essentially kind of, like, empty for you and that you don't think that the. The myth really holds much.

[B]

I didn't think that Peter Pan as a story was robust enough and, like, textured enough and rich enough to hold songs. And you said, I don't think they're singing about Peter Pan, the book, or even the, like, film adaptations. I think they're dealing with that. They're involving Hook in the canon. And now having seen the film Hook, sorry to break the magic here, but we did just finish watching it because we happen to do things out of continuity. In tonight's podcast, and listening back to both the Maisie Peterson song and the Taylor Swift song, I can confirm that they're both about the film Hook.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They're not about Peter pan. They are 100%. I would die on that hill.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Those two girls are singing about the film Hook, the 1991 classic by Stephen.

[A]

Taylor Swift may listen to this podcast, but I know Maisie. Peter definitely does sometimes. She's been on before.

[B]

Maisie.

[A]

Listen, Maisie's an acquaintance. And Maisie, if your song Wendy on your album the Good Witch, we've been listening to a lot on this holiday.

[B]

A lot.

[A]

Fantastic album, actually.

[B]

The whole album. Yeah.

[A]

If that is about the film Hook.

[B]

Please tell us, please, because we think it is. And, Taylor, if you're listening, I know you'll never tell us, but I don't know, send us a sign. Put something in the post. Put an Easter egg somewhere for us, because we think it's about Hook.

[A]

And I'm gonna get into why I think those two songs are about Hook after the break when we come back to talk about Hook.

[B]

All right, see you there.

[A]

Peter Pan's Got Kids wild. I love this movie so, so much. And I want to thank you for tolerating what was quite an intense and extreme love that really I made. Your problem. Throughout the watching of this movie, which took place over two days, I would.

[B]

Say you were weeping for 60% of this film.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that's a conservative estimate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there were moments that I was really confused by.

[A]

Confused by what was happening on screen. I was confused by what I was.

[B]

Saying, by what your gloss on your own weeping. The best one for me, or like the most confusing was when in the final scenes of this film.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That Peter Pan is reunited with Wendy and you just turned to me, you gripped my hand and you said, they're both dead, and started weeping. And I was like, what the. What have I missed? Are we about to be Narnia'd? What's going on then? Is this all a dream? Have they all died? And then I realised you were talking about the actors, Robin Williams and Maggie Smith. You hadn't made that clear. So I was really.

[A]

They're all dead.

[B]

They're all dead. I was just there.

[A]

So many people really missing, dead. Which I guess is how time works.

[B]

But still. And again, I think, yeah, probably, probably for me because this film is 34 years old now. I was like, yeah, yeah, they are.

[A]

It's okay. They're dead. It's okay. Bob Hoskins is dead. Who is he? Bob Hoskins is so dead.

[B]

I haven't spotted that.

[A]

Sad.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard because when they live on in film, how are you supposed to know?

[A]

Well, indeed.

[B]

What are you supposed to do? Read the newspaper or something? Check the obits? I don't know.

[A]

You sound like a Victorian who's been taken from the past and put into modern day.

[B]

Well, how am I supposed to know? Disgusting. Yeah, I did. But you. It really was. I was quite a wild ride. And like for me as a first time hook watcher. Yeah, like some things I think, I think the film I'll watch again, I really enjoyed it. Some bits I was like, this hasn't aged well. But that's of course a film from 90s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really not into lawyers or being fat in this film, are they?

[A]

I think there's a heroism to being fat in this film.

[B]

Apart from the time when they make loads of jokes about it over and over and also about being a lawyer. But there is a heroism to it extent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very early 90s in that respect.

[A]

Yes. But I think what I. What makes me so. I was really trying to pass why this film makes me so incredibly emotional and why almost every frame of it makes me cry. The thing of like because it's like, it's not even that Robin Williams is dead, and there's so much, like, allusions to, like, oh, you know, the whole. To die would be an awfully great adventure. And yes, living would be a great adventure. Like, that's. Obviously, that can really hit you, particularly when you think about his life and his death. And that's sad, but there's something in the. In the quality of the film itself that makes me really upset. And I think when I was really. When I was in the spa alone today looking at 5,000 cocks, I really wanted to think to myself, why does it make me so upset? And I think it's because, like, I would say that most people don't enjoy childhood. Like. Like, I'm. I'm separating that out from the idea of, like, having a happy childhood or having a sad childhood, having good or bad things happen to you or having good or bad parents. Like, I know I had great parents and everything and, like, all that. I just also know that I was a person who was not made to enjoy being a child. Like, I remember at the time thinking, this bit sucks and, like, I need to get through this bit. Like, did you feel that way about being a child? Yeah, and I feel. I feel like a good proportion of people probably felt that way.

[B]

I think probably up to the age of about three. It's fucking sick.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that is sick.

[B]

You know what I mean? It's the joke about, like, you get up, your mum's made you your favorite breakfast, you're carried downstairs, you're put in front of the telly, and then you just lose your absolute shit because you're a toddler. Like, that's your life. People are just trying to. You are emperor baby until you're three. At that point, you're suddenly expected to be a person. And from then till about maybe 18 to 20. Yeah, it's a real harsh toke.

[A]

It's a real harsh toke. Like, the. The lack of control is terrible. You have control over no part of your life.

[B]

You barely have control over your own body and emotions. A lot of it. You don't know what's going on.

[A]

People are mean to you and they get away with this. Your peers are mean to you, your siblings are mean to you.

[B]

People expect you to know things. You don't know those things.

[A]

You don't know that. It's just, like, a bad time and, like, you know, separated out from whether or not you had an individually good experience of childhood, whether or not you enjoyed being a child. At all, I think, is a separate thing. And I think for a lot of people, when they think of childhood, I think of a. It's sort of a sense of pain comes. Comes to them, and it's a pain they feel ashamed of, because you're not supposed to feel that way about being a child. And so you. Because it is a thing we idealize in our culture. It's something we protect. And, like, so much of, like, you know. Yeah. So much of children's media and family media is all about it being a magical time. And so many people don't feel that way about that time. And so there is a thing that you do where you sort of separate yourself out from that person. You forget that those memories are memories, and you play them in your head like they're a film, and you just sort of be like, that was kind of a different thing. And you don't connect your child self to your adult self. And Hook is a movie about the perils of forgetting you were a child at all. And like. Of like, putting those memories so far away from yourself that you're like, no, no, no, no. That was, like. That was, like, a thing that has nothing to do with who I am now. And I think that is, like. Like that moment where, you know. So the whole thing of, like, Peter forgetting who he used to be, Peter Pan, and he was the kind of leader of this band of Lost Boys, and he was a heroic, fearless leader. And then he comes back and nobody recognizes him, and he can't remember any of it. And then, like, this moment that, like, I'm sure it upsets lots of people, but, like, one of the Lost Boys, like, just pushes back all the kind of cheeks and jowls of an adult face, and he says, oh, there you are, Peter. And it's that reminder that, like, that person is, like, still there and, like, how painful that is, you know? Does that look at you at all? Yeah, I guess.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I think, again, it's one of those things where. Because I'm extensively therapized, and so much of therapy is about revisiting your child self and kind of remembering who you were then and, like, how you might have felt and developing a sympathy for this little kid who didn't know what was going on. Yeah, I don't know. I think. I think I can see why it's affecting in that way. But also, I feel like I have spent so much time sitting in my therapist's office being like, God, that probably sucked for poor little me. And, like. And trying to do that work, but it is. Yeah, I think it hits me differently. I thought it was very beautifully done, but I don't think it had the same kind of like, sucker punch to the ribbon that it seems to have.

[A]

Is this your week of suddenly saying, I have to go to therapy because I don't want to.

[B]

You might enjoy it just based off that thing you just said about Peter Pan and feeling very.

[A]

I don't need therapy.

[B]

I had movies and feeling very disconnected from, like, the child that you were. I think it is easy. I think it's very easy to forget the child that you were. But also there's something about forgetting the child that you were and then remembering that. But there is also something there about kind of. I think almost the thing that I found more affecting was the responsibility adults have to children.

[A]

Yes, to.

[B]

To kind of create that space. Because childhood is like a rel. Like, not biological childhood has always existed, but, like cultural childhood is a relatively modern invention. And in fact, the time at which Peter Pan is written by J.M. barrie, that's still, like, we're talking, like, 20 or 30 years into the point in time in history, in Britain at least, where the idea of childhood as a. As a kind of sacred space, a protected state where you couldn't be, I don't know, sent to work up a.

[A]

Chimney, for example, or in a factory.

[B]

Or in a factory is still so new. And like, this is a time where the idea that someone wrote a book all about the prizing childhood and thinking about the great adventure of it and the imagination of children and the power that children have to. To sort of see things differently was so new and so fresh. And what this film does for me so beautifully is to take that idea and put it in the 20th century, late 20th century, and remind people that actually they still have to do that. Like, that doesn't just happen. Kids don't just get, like. Just by virtue of being children get a childhood. And I think, particularly if we look at global affairs at this point in time, we're more aware than ever that not everyone gets to be a kid that way. And we have a responsibility to the children to hold that space for them and to treat them carefully and to remember that they have little dreams and little desires and that they will be crushed if their parents and the people around them don't look after them. And I think maybe I saw it more from that side. I think seeing Peter and his relationship with his kids and him realizing that he wants to provide for them and he wants to be like the big shot lawyer and do all the stuff, but his kids don't give a fuck about that. They just want him to be there and they want to see him, they want to have fun with him and play with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I have so many friends and family members with kids now and I just love watching them and being like, seeing how much they enjoy hanging out with their kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I don't think would have been true in like the mid 19th century it's.

[A]

Or even the early 90s.

[B]

No, like so much less so.

[A]

I know we talk a lot about the things that Covid robbed us as a generation, but I think, you know, so many people I know millennials became parents in and around Covid and it really was the first generation en masse of fathers who were there for every step of their child's life. Like, like Pat Leave has, is a relatively recent thing. Yeah. And even then it was mostly sort of six, eight weeks or something, if you were lucky. And so. But like for the first time we got a whole generation of men who saw their baby take their first steps or laugh for the first time because they were right there. And like, yeah, maybe not all of them did a great job, but all the guys I know have done a great job.

[B]

You know, I think there's a lot more great jobs happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think, I mean I spent Christmas with my family, including my brother and my sister in law who I love, and my nephew who I love. And just seeing that little guy, he's three years old, he's having a cracking time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His mum's there, his dad's there. They're both incredibly fun. They both love him very much. They'll play games, they'll do anything. That's just. He's getting a childhood of a sort that kids of the 90s maybe didn't always have. I think we both had really good ones. But. But that kind of playfulness is something that yes.

[A]

Is.

[B]

Feels like this is almost not new, but there's more of a focus on it now. Neither of us are parents, so we're just kind of like observing on the sidelines. But I think if I look at my friends now and the way they play with their kids, it feels.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They feel that there's more room for that than they're perhaps would have been.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the end of the last century. And I like that, I love it.

[A]

And like when we get dropped into hook, it's like it drops you into extremely like familiar, very 90s thing of like, my dad's a lawyer in a job and he doesn't come to my big game.

[B]

The phone owns him. Even though phones were really new back then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? His relationship with his phone. Terrifying. Because that thing can only call. They can't even do text, let alone the Internet.

[A]

Yeah. Like now the phone's owners.

[B]

Now the phone's back then the phones already own some people. Real sort of like, my God, did we even understand how much the phones would own us in future? But, yeah, it's very 90s. It's very early start. And there's.

[A]

What I think is. That is really lovely. I really do think this is a movie that, like, I don't really. This is really my main entry point to the lore of Peter Pan. Like, I've seen this film maybe three or four times. I have very dim memories of the cartoon and I've never read the books or seen a stage play. So, like, I'm not really. Like, the shape of the original Peter Pan myth is very clear to me.

[B]

But it's a play.

[A]

It's a play.

[B]

It's pretty. It's pretty slender.

[A]

Yeah. I know that. I know why it's important, but it was never important to me. And, like, the way it starts with Maggie playing Wendy in a school play and we get this sense of like, oh, this is like, you know, this is the world that we know very well. And like, in this world, Peter Pan's as big as it is everywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like. But then we get this sort of slow weaving of like, oh, no. This particular family have this relationship to Peter Pan that's really important and really deep. I think the way that that is done in this movie is so gorgeous. Like, I really. It's a long film. It's overly long.

[B]

Yeah. So the reason I was mmming like that is I was like, it's gorgeous. But then it also becomes quite weird at one point. Oh, yeah.

[A]

But I love that it's weird. It feels very Studio Ghibli in its weirdness. I think that's true.

[B]

It does.

[A]

It does not feel like a Steven Spielberg film. It's the weirdness of the, you know, Maggie Smith and Robin Williams relationship.

[B]

Like, I was sitting there in the kind of the opening moments where Moira, who's Peter. Peter. Who's played by Robin Williams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And who we don't yet know is Peter Pan. Although you obviously do, because that's his cool.

[A]

You know, but.

[B]

You know, but you don't know why. But she talks about how when they were growing up in London together with Granny Wendy and how they shared a bedroom. And I was like, is he married to his cousin? And you were like, no. And then later, Maggie Smith turns up and Maggie Smith's kind of. Kind of sexually solicitous towards her adoptive grandson. And I was like, why is Maggie Smith trying to fuck her grandson? And it all becomes very clear. But, like, there is. It's this. Like, they're so woven into the mythology, but they don't bother explaining that straight off. So you're kind of left as a new viewer coming in without any childhood, like, knowledge of the film being, like, what? It's very absorbing. It's very engaging. And, like, I was like, what on earth is going. What kind of flowers in the attic?

[A]

Shit.

[B]

Am I. Yeah, totally, totally.

[A]

And, like. But it's. It's the. It's the weirdness and the not explaining of the weirdness that makes it feel all the more woven in it and, like, believable. And they. It just has me right away and, like, yeah, the. And. Sorry, I'm dying around that first bit. But I do think that first sort of, like, movement of the film, even though it does move quite slowly, it's some of my favorite parts of the film of, like, he's this, like, really neurotic, anxious dad who's quite, like, you know, short with his kids. And then there's a really funny part when they're on the plane and he's afraid of flying.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And his daughter does a picture.

[A]

Yeah. And the plane has crashed and they all have parachutes except him, and he's just falling.

[B]

And you're like, creepy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your daughter is, you know, resigning you to a watery death in the ocean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because she always knew could fly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Presumably they never say it. They never say it aloud.

[A]

No, it's. It's very subtly done. And then. And then we kind of slowly get this kind of weaving of like, they. Yeah. They grew up in Maggie Smith, who's Granny Wendy, in her house that appears to be in Westminster.

[B]

I was looking at the final shot of the film. I'm putting it, like, near St. James's park, probably quite close to Downing Street.

[A]

Gorgeous.

[B]

Lovely real estate.

[A]

Granny Wendy from.

[B]

From the original Big Ben thing. But, yeah, it's very. Yeah, it's not a cheap area to live, I would say. The house that they filmed in doesn't look like it was there. Getting deep into the architecture. I work around there. There's nothing that looks like that.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah. So she lives in Westminster. So she's absolutely minted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Enough so that she's donating wings to Great Ormond Street Hospital, in fairness. So, like, we know that.

[A]

And she. And the whole kind of lore of her in the real world is that, you know, her and her brothers had these stories. JM Barrie lived next door, which I actually love, because we know that JM Barrie was inspired by real children he knew, and that she has been made famous through this. She has used that fame.

[B]

She's a philanthropist. She's helped to kind of. She's channeled her life into finding homes for orphaned children and supporting the Great Wall Street Hospital, which is also a lovely touch because, of course, the royalties from Peter Pan were assigned to the hospital in perpetuity. I think there was a legal battle about it recently. I have no idea if they still get them, but JM Barrie was very keen, their state, to make sure that.

[A]

They got it back. Tying it in, tying it in. And we have all these lovely scenes in London, which is very. Like, we discussed this, but when we were doing Continental garbage, we did so much, you know, how Americans, or how the English see Europe, and what we think of mainland Europe as, like, magical things that. Like, magical places for the American filmmaker and the American viewer. And, like, what we think Italy can do for us, what we think France can do for us.

[B]

But we never looked at what we think Britain can do for us.

[A]

Yes. And so this was such a twinkly, idealized version of London. Like, at one point, Moira says, london's a magical place for children. And you and I went, what the fuck?

[B]

Yeah, I guess maybe it was in the 1920s, but I don't think in the late 90s it was. But I think this film gives you just a little bit of London that you're like, oh, London. Perhaps it could be romantic and nice. No. And then it sends you somewhere else. But it does have that little bit of. That kind of.

[A]

Yeah, that. That grandeur. I think it's an old worldly grandeur. Like, touches of it do exist. And we know that it can exist. Maybe not that exact house in that exact place, but the idea of them going to this great ball function for the Great Ormond Street Hospital and him giving this speech about Granny Wendy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All these orphans standing up.

[B]

Here's. And this is the other thing we talked about. This film is very much about American people going to Europe to rediscover their ancestral homes.

[A]

Okay. So, all right. So I don't want to frustrate anyone by, like, going on A little diversion for a minute, but just.

[B]

But do it.

[A]

Okay. We're going to keep this really short. I love Americans.

[B]

I also love them.

[A]

I have many American friends.

[B]

I do.

[A]

But there is a certain kind of American traveler that when they go abroad, they want to talk to you so much, and they do not want to ask questions, and they do not want to listen. Like. Like, guys, like, I. I know so many American tiktoky girlies, and, like, everyone planning their next European trip and saying things like, oh, they're so rude to Americans here. The only thing you have to do to be liked by anyone in Europe is ask a question and listen to the answer, and then maybe ask another question, and then maybe you can say a few things about yourself. But the way Americans will just monologue to you about their lives you don't care about and how they will weave in, like, ancestral. I know this is a cliche and we're all bored of hearing it, but we met a girl in Bergen who was so extreme about her ancestral ties to Ireland.

[B]

She did say, an ancient kingdom, and I saw you die a bit inside.

[A]

I died a bit. So she was like, oh, my God. I was just in Ireland there. We were. We were in this restaurant. We were like, we're gonna spend a nice amount of money on a lovely fish restaurant in Bergen. And we sat down, and there was this girl who was sitting next to us who's eating alone, and she sort of, you know, made casual chat with us. And I was like, oh, well, she's eating alone. We'll chat to her a little bit. She seems sweet. And then very immediately, she was like, oh, I. I just came from Ireland. I was like, oh, great. Where did you go? Oh, Dublin. I was like, okay. And she said, well, I have family there. I was like, oh, where? And she was like, well, you know, it's not contemporary Ireland. I was like, oh, God. She was like, I'm related to one of the ancient kingdoms of Ireland. And I was like, okay. And then she said, do you know Anne Boleyn? And I went, yeah. And she was like, you know, Mary, like, she had a sister. Her voice dropped confidentially. And she said, she had a sister.

[B]

And where'd you go, the other Boleyn girl?

[A]

And then she went, yeah. I was like, you're trying to tell me about the other Boleyn girl? Like, it's new information. And then she was like, so I'm kin to her? And I was like, hang on. You are telling me that you're related to an ancient Kingdom of Ireland that also housed Mary Boleyn, the other Boleyn girl, who was.

[B]

I believe that is what happened.

[A]

Who was in the 16th century, 15th century, one of those. 15 or 16. 16th, but not ancient Ireland.

[B]

No. It's quite a lot earlier, isn't it?

[A]

Quite a lot.

[B]

Anyway, by that point, yeah. Ireland had already been aggressively colonized by the English.

[A]

Colonized. Yes.

[B]

It was a moment, and I think it was, other respects, a very sweet woman and a lovely time was had. It was just when we kind of left that interaction having had a nice time, and we're like, sometimes someone needs to tell the American tourists this little truth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just have their lives better. They will have a better time. When they're on holiday, they'll have a.

[A]

Better time because, like, sometimes, like, you meet Americans and they're like, oh, my God, my great aunt was from Wicklow. And you're like, cool. Like, I mean, I understand that America has a short history, and the. And the desire to look into your ancestry is great, but do not be telling me about ancient kingdoms and the other Boleyn girl, I beg.

[B]

And if you're going to have a history, it should be something like, actually, my grandmother is Wendy and I'm Peter Pan.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If she said, I am the other Boleyn girl, I'd have been like, I'm all ears. Tell me more.

[A]

But then when we were walking, I.

[B]

Want to hear this vivid hallucination being.

[A]

So scarred from that thing, and then you just. And us just wipe. Watching Hook and you being. Tapping my shoulder and being like, oh, it's about Americans going to their. Going to Europe to find their ancient ancestry belonging to magical kingdoms that don't exist.

[B]

I said what I said, and I stand by it.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

It is. But what's nice, because if it was literally would be annoying, but because it's about fiction, it's fine.

[A]

That is much better.

[B]

It's so much better.

[A]

The first instance in which an American actually has an interesting tie to Europe.

[B]

I loved it. I was very happy with that. What I was very shocked by, though, when the ancestral kingdom first emerged, was the identity of the actor playing Tinkerbell, Julia Ryder. It fell off my chair because you don't really see who she is for the first couple of minutes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's like little sort of glowing thing flying around, kind of looking very androgynous and speaking in quite an androgynous way. And then suddenly, it's Julia Roberts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Fell off my chair.

[A]

Incredible. Incredible.

[B]

In the worst wig I think I've ever seen her in. In her entire acting career.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Little fright wig. A little ragamuffin fright wig.

[A]

We discussed a lot the kind of characterization of Tinkerbell in this movie, because the Disney Tinkerbell is a little sex kitten. Like, really fucked up what they were thinking there. Like, obviously Disney princesses are always hot and like Tinkerbell, I guess they're always beautiful.

[B]

But Tinkerbell is sexy.

[A]

Yeah. And she's tiny.

[B]

She's tiny and sexy. And she's wearing the dress that goes. That just about covers her knickers.

[A]

Yeah. So I guess it's a bit weird.

[B]

She looks like Sabrina Carpenter and Sabrina Carpenter dressed up as her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because fair enough, I would too.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And then so I guess when they decided to characterize Julia Roberts as Tinkerbell, they were like, be fucking weird if we made her really sexy if she's a human woman. Because of the way this is translated for anime to. For an animated film to a family friendly audience. It's just something in the translation. And actually, I think that that translation is worth discussing in other places as well because it's like interestingly done and well done in some places and badly done in other places.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, definitely.

[A]

But I think they were just like, okay, let's just sort of make her sort of androgynous, sort of pixie of storybooks. And she almost looks like illustrations of Peter himself.

[B]

Yeah. So that's the thing I was really struck by. There's that you see this illustration of Peter that Maggie Smith Wendy shows Robin Williams Peter early on. And then when Tinkerbell turns up, she looks exactly like that. Like she's dressed the same, the hair is the same. And then later in the film, she dresses up as the illustration of Wendy. I get. I think that Tinkerbell has a very unstable sense of self.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She's kind of mirroring the people around her. And that's how she's trying to understand herself, because she's a tiny pixie in a big old world. Like a child.

[A]

Yeah. And I think actually Julia Roberts plays her really well.

[B]

Very well. Like a hard role.

[A]

And this is the first flop. I mean, it's worth saying at this point now that a lot of people's first flop. It was Spielberg's first flop and Robin Williams's first flop. And they all flopped together. Like the spa.

[B]

Like just.

[A]

They all flopped together.

[B]

Thousand dongs. Like some real odd cameos in that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You were reading a list of cameos to me earlier.

[A]

George Lucas cameo George Lucas cameo. Phil Collins plays the police detective when the kids go missing.

[B]

Gwyneth Paltrow.

[A]

Yes, as teenage Wendy. Glenn Close.

[B]

That one was very, very surprising because when Glenn Close turned up, yeah, I was like, I looked and I was just like, there's something about this pirate that I can't place him.

[A]

It's extraordinary.

[B]

It's Glenn Close.

[A]

That's why Glenn Close. And it's quite extraordinary how many people are in it. And I suppose, like, if you think about all of those actors would have been sort of boomers, really. They're all older actors, you know, and they would have very much grown up with like, seeing Peter Pan, the theater on the radio or in tv. And Peter Pan was such a huge thing for that generation, specifically as being one of the first, like, mass children's thing of the, like, you know, that era of televised children's entertainment. And so it makes sense. And also Spielberg, I imagine he was just able to loop people in really easily. But then when you think of all that time and effort and all the pathos and ingenious writing and staging and everything that went into this, and then it flopped so hard and people hated it.

[B]

Why did they hate it at the time? Was it because it was so far from Peter Pan? Do we know. Do you have any contemporaneous accounts of its flop?

[A]

Yes. So I always, whenever, yeah, I'm researching a movie, I always check the Roger Ebert review.

[B]

Ah, he's been around forever.

[A]

He's been around forever, reviewed everything, and he was frequently correct when other people were incorrect and he didn't like the movie. And a large part of why he didn't like it, I actually do understand. And that he felt like. And again, he would have grown up with Peter Pan as well. So the original myth would have been so dear to him in a way it wasn't dear to me. And a large part of his review is him saying, I always imagine, like, Neverland is this, like verdant, beautiful place in my imagination. And it looks like this cheap, terrible, arid movie set. And I was like, oh, I actually do get that it doesn't look beautiful.

[B]

Never ends.

[A]

And it's kind of sweet to think of like middle aged film critics in 1921 being like, it's not my Neverland. You know, it's sort of sweet because, like, I mean, this is something I know you and I are really fascinated by and something I know we hope to cover more on sentimental garbage in the future is like, just how fantasy storytelling is rendered on screen.

[B]

I do think that's like a thing that has completely been revolutionized by just advances in technology.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You can do fantasy now in a way that you could not do fantasy. Well, it was hard to do fantasy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not saying it was never done well ever, but it was mostly done quite badly.

[A]

And also it required a contract from the audience that was harder for them to sign.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, there are cult classics that everybody remembers, like Labyrinth and the Princess Bride and all these things, and I think Hook has now entered into that pantheon. But, like, it took a long time for it to enter it. Yeah. Of like, you know, things are practical effects and they're cheaply done. They're done on sets or they're done on location in Ireland or something. And it's like, you know, you look at the Princess Bride, it kind of makes fun of its own effects. Like the rodents of unusual size.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's kind of camp, but, like, people adore it and they completely are lost in the majesty of it. But that era of fantasy storytelling for kids was just quite rudimentary in budget and in scale and in resources. And then you get that breakthrough of Lord of the Rings in 2001.

[B]

Well, I was literally just looking up, when did Lord of the Rings happen? Because only 10 years between those two films.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not a huge amount of time. And Lord of the Rings. You could look at the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring now, and if you made it this year, it would look the same.

[A]

Yeah, the same. I mean, you and I watched it.

[B]

Very recently, and if you made Hook now, it looked very, very different.

[A]

Like, the. The movie doesn't need a remake because the talent.

[B]

No, it would. It would be impossible to remake it.

[A]

So far as to say, yeah, with that same kind of bill of talent would be impossible to find. But, like, in terms of the look of the film, if that got an update in the way that Wicked looks or whatever, Yeah, I think it would be incredible. But, yeah, at this point, it was just. We weren't there.

[B]

We weren't there yet. It could only be looked at nostalgically. It needed to become its own law. It needed to have that kind of nostalgic fairy tale quality that Peter Pan had for the people who saw it when it first came out. But for kids growing up in the 90s, which there were fucking turns.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's got that thing now to the extent that some of our biggest recording artists are using it as source material for their sad girl ballads.

[A]

Can we touch briefly on both Maisie Peters and Taylor Swift songs that are very close to one another and close to what feels like this source material.

[B]

Did we not already?

[A]

Well, we mentioned it briefly. But, like, I think what's interesting is that both of those songs, Maisie Peters is called Wendy and Taylor Swift's song is called. Yes, Peter.

[B]

Peter. Quite different angles on them, but on.

[A]

The same sort of Maggie Smith as Wendy character, which is the idea of the girl who waits forever.

[B]

Yeah. And I think Taylor Swift is quite a. Like, it's very close to Maggie, you know?

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

From Maggie's perspective. It is. You said you were going to grow up and you were going to come find me, and you didn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She doesn't go as far as you married my granddaughter, but we know it was in her heart. But Maisie Peters is kind of a more empowering take.

[A]

My favorite line that Maisie Peters won is, so I shut the window and turn on the ac and you throw your rocks and you scream that you hate me. I think it's so great. They'd be like, I'm putting on the air conditioning. Peter Pan. I love it. But. But actually, I want to talk on that. On that sort of Maggie Smith, Wendy performance, because I do think the sort of the Wendy of it all is the kind of emotional heart of the movie that's kind of sceneless. It's. There's something so devastating about the fact that, you know, Wendy had all these adventures with Peter and John and all the other Lost boys.

[B]

What happened to John and Michael in this film? Are they just dead?

[A]

I guess they grew up and died. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, they grew up and died. As best men do.

[A]

Yeah, as men want to do, I guess. They were probably killed in one of the world wars they were forced to be a part of.

[B]

Probably died in a war.

[A]

Yeah, they probably died in the war. And the. Yeah. And it makes sense that Wendy would be the last one standing and that. And, you know, Peter would routinely come back and she would get older and older, and then one day he came back and she had a granddaughter, and then he decided he would, like, grow up for the granddaughter sleeping in the bed next to her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that moment of like, I'm going to give her a kiss. And then Maggie Smith's character in the delivery is so heartbreaking. She says, no Peter, no thimbles, no buttons.

[B]

No buttons. There is, I think, again, a very, like, 90s vein running through this in terms of the treatment of the female characters in this film, because they are sidelined so powerfully, but the performances are.

[A]

So good that they breathe life.

[B]

They are there. But I think maybe that's. And again, we're going back to what started this, which was me being like, I really don't understand this constant singing about Peter Pan and Wendy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think you could not have watched that film as a little girl child of the 90s and not felt personally slighted by the way the women in that film were treated and wanted to redress it and to one day, 30 years later, write a song. Being like. And what about Wendy? You know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because, like. Yeah, because the ache is in the performance in such a deep way.

[B]

When Maggie Smith, as Wendy, asks Peter if he likes her dress and he just ignores her.

[A]

Oh, my God. Like, oh, fuck. And there's a bit where, like, she says, like, even on my wedding day, I, like, waited for you.

[B]

And he's just like, what?

[A]

What do you want?

[B]

And he's the only mad old bat type thing.

[A]

And the idea, it's set in dialogue between him and his wife Moira, of, like, you know, she writes every year to see if you'll come visit. And the idea that, like, he's like, Peter Banning, lawyer and, like, whatever, and that she's still kind of waiting for him, like, it never goes away.

[B]

It's. Yeah.

[A]

Like, awful.

[B]

And she just. And he's just. Even that film, that moment when. When you see him coming again and again to her window and he puts a hand on her shoulder, he turns around and she's Maggie Smith. And she's like, I'm old now. And he physically recoils.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

The male fear of women aging.

[A]

The male fear of women.

[B]

And he's. But your granddaughter, she seems young.

[A]

Yeah. And she's into the Beatles.

[B]

And she's into the Beatles. A thing that, like, I like some slightly creepy stuff there. But also our little pal who is, in fact called Maggie, isn't she? Confusingly so.

[A]

The child is called Maggie. The wife is called Moira.

[B]

Yeah, but we've been calling Wendy Maggie because it's Maggie Smith.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sorry.

[B]

But there is in fact a character called Maggie, and that's the small child Maggie. And again, I feel like, for me, she's sort of the Wendy, the young Wendy of the piece.

[A]

Yes. And she plays Wendy in the opening scene.

[B]

And she plays Wendy in the opening scene. And she has this magic and this belief in her father all the way through and belief in love and belief in everything. And Peter Pan, as Robin Williams is Peter Pan, just kind of ignores her the whole way through. Yeah, he's Just like, whatever. And he's so obsessed with Jack, the son who's put it out there and one of the more annoying children in film.

[A]

Yeah, he's not.

[B]

I was like, okay, all right, Jack. But he's. This is. This is very much a film about a father's relationship with his son and he's disappointing his son and his son being disappointed in him and the length he'll go to. To fix that relationship. And I definitely feel like watching it, I could see why as a child you'd be like, well, what about Maggie? Yeah, I felt like he almost nearly left her on the pirate ship. Like it was a real afterthought that he's like, oh, I'm that one too. Yeah, I forget the girl child sometimes, but like that. And there is. There is a real sidelining of the female characters, which is completely normal for that time. But I do. I do think that part of those songs is about. Yeah, it's about the way that that film has made its. Has created a space around women loving, emotionally unavailable, childlike men. But it's also partly about men not taking them seriously and not seeing them as. As important as their male friends, sons, fathers, whatever it is.

[A]

Yes. And it's difficult to tell because, you know, Carrie Fisher did a uncredited rewrite on this.

[B]

Did she?

[A]

And I. And like, Carrie Fisher was very famous for many things. The first of which is being Princess Leia.

[B]

Yes, even I knew that one.

[A]

Being drunk. The third of which being Eddie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds Child. But the fourth of which being an incredible script doctor. So it was many, many films of the 80s and 90s have an uncredited Carrie Fisher rewrite, which I find so cool.

[B]

I bet she put all those emotional heart bits with Maggie Smith.

[A]

I think so too.

[B]

I bet that was her.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Specifically in the IMDb it cites that moment at the very end of the movie when Tink says that space in between waking and dreaming.

[B]

Oh, it's got to be Carrie Fisher.

[A]

That was her line. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like almost like I think. Yeah, think about me dreaming.

[A]

That's where I love you as well.

[B]

Julia Roberts character, old Wendy Moira. Yeah, the bit when Moira. Even that moment when. When the children finally come back and I don't know why I'm laughing because it's not funny. But I was laughing because there's something you said about it where they come back to their beds and Moira wakes up and she says to Wendy, Maggie Smith, like, I've. I've been dreaming them, so I've been Dreaming so often that they're back in their beds. That I'm seeing them now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're there. And she. It's just this dreadful moment because as you pointed out, you're like, well, they've just been going through extreme trauma and grief for three days.

[A]

For three days.

[B]

Well, Robin Williams has been like firing food cannons at other people. But, like, I feel like all of that feels like Carrie Fisher. Who would probably have thought, what would it have been like to be the grandmother and mother left behind when their husband and the two children have just disappeared.

[A]

Yes. Because you can so tell. Totally. You can so tell that the movie itself was conceived to be like. And like, it's fine for the movie to be about this. Specifically about patriarchs. Like, specifically about men and their sons and the relationship they have with their sons. And like, something I'm very fascinated by in the kind of the depiction of like, men in this movie is that like, like, so, so we begin and Peter Banning is like no fun, supermanly provider, obsessed with his job and does that thing that many men do, which is. Uses his obsession with his own success as a. And he uses providing for his family as a cover for his own egotistical obsession with success. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I have to do this for my family. No, you could have really taken your foot off the pedal quite a few stops ago. And so. And he's. And because that is the world that we've. That masculinity is for now. Do you mean, like that's our version of it. And then he goes to Neverland and it takes him a while to sort of remember what it is to be Peter. And then once he does, he gets completely absorbed in being a little boy again. He wants to go on adventures and.

[B]

He forgets his grown up responsibilities.

[A]

Yeah. So you can't. And this kind of very interesting thing of like, men being unable to hold both in their heads at once. That thing of being a provider and a patriarch, but also being silly and soft and childish. Yeah, it's very. I think women have access to those two parts of themselves far easier than men do because of the way that masculinity is so policed by our society. Like, we talk a lot about how femininity is policed, but so is masculinity. And it's really sad.

[B]

It is. Most of his femininity is infantilized more.

[A]

As well, which makes it.

[B]

There's a, like, allowed to be a closer space between. Between being feminine and being like childlike and playful.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

But yeah, I do think it probably sucks to be a man because if you're silly people, be like, oh, Peter Pan.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

If you're not silly, be like, aren't you boring old f Ck? What are you doing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How can they catch a break?

[A]

I know, I always. I how. Give women a break.

[B]

Give them a break.

[A]

Like, I always think about, like, how it must have been for like my dad. Sure. But like many dads, like coming home at like half six, seven o'clock every day and just like all of our lives have happened.

[B]

Yeah. And they just weren't part of it.

[A]

Yeah. And like, you know, they like when I think of myself at the end of the day of work or whatever and I've come home and I've commuted or whatever and then there are just these kids there and what have they been doing?

[B]

Who are they?

[A]

I remember my dad coming to the door once and seeing me and my brother slumped in front of the Simpsons as always. And him being like, every time I come home it's this ugly TV show. I'm like, I get it.

[B]

I get. I remember my dad coming home on a bike one time. He was in the Air Force and I was with my cousins and we'd all just been stung by a load of wasps. We stood in a wasps nest and we were all running, screaming and crying out of a bush, like being chased by wasps. And I remember just seeing him turn around on his bike. So I got off back to, back to the offices. He was like, absolutely not. I guess the upside is they had that option.

[A]

They had that option.

[B]

Whereas my mum had seven extensively wasp stung children.

[A]

Oh my God, what a horrible day.

[B]

It was a really bad day for everybody. It was.

[A]

That's awful.

[B]

It goes down in many people's memories as a, as a low point, but not for my dad is he was like, I just thought I'd go back, do a bit more work.

[A]

Yeah. Like, like, I mean, I don't pretend to understand it. Like it's. I'll never know what it is to be a father, but like also that kind of watching, that dynamic, it's very much. I think it's what a lot of women go through of like losing their best friend and partner and being sort of like cheated really. And like you really feel. And I wonder. This also feels like a Carrie Fisher line, this lovely little speech that Moira gives to Peter, which is when he's sort of neglecting them in London, even though he promised that London would be their special time, saying that you Know, this is like a really, like, short, precious time. It's a few years.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I wrote it down.

[A]

Okay. Really?

[B]

Yeah. A few years. Well, Paris in the first bit, a few years where the kids want you around. After that, you're chasing them for attention. Then she says, you're not being careful and you're missing it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You're not being careful.

[B]

Carrie Fisher wrote that. For sure.

[A]

For sure she wrote that.

[B]

I think Carrie Fisher probably also wrote the line that Maggie has where she looks at, I believe, at Captain Hook and says, you need a mother very, very badly. Yeah, because there's a little bit of, like, props to mothers in this film, too.

[A]

It's really woven through in ways that feel like a redraft.

[B]

By Carrie Fisher.

[A]

By Carrie Fisher. But can we talk about Hook in general?

[B]

Okay. As in, like the character of Hook.

[A]

The character of Hook. Dustin Hoffman as Hook in his best ever screen performance. And he has many to choose from.

[B]

Absolutely phenomenal.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Every single word he says. His voice will not return to the Game of Dog in any great detail, but suffice to say that as we all know, when men go on holiday, it's Lord of the Flies. When women go on holiday, it quickly becomes a descent into madness, game playing and roleplay. And for us, much of this week it's been sitting in a mid century bar playing a children's game and pretending to be two old men. Two rakish old gamblers called Philip. And it turns out that the voice we've both been using. Philip, Philip.

[A]

Are screaming at each other across the fucking Norwegian bar. Philip, you old dog, you owe this.

[B]

Oh, that was a badly good hand, Philip.

[A]

Badly done, Philip. Badly done.

[B]

A hot play of dog there. They'll call this dog Lane soon. Anyway, turns out we've just been doing Hook's voice all week without even realizing. And we were watching it and we were like, gosh, Philip, he's played a good hand of dog lately, hasn't he? The way he is, bad form match him across the table in Dog. In fact, what I enjoyed is that there was a moment late in the film where Hook hooks Peter with his hook. And you just went bad form. So immersed were you in Dustin Hoffman's character?

[A]

So he's clearly so good.

[B]

Clearly that character has become part of the cultural consciousness because it washed up on our shores.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This way. And it's too close to be an accident. He's incredible the way he just inhabits that character with his big little false teeth.

[A]

Yes. And the big eyebrows and the hair so many mustaches. Virtually unrecognizable. You really have to know it doesn't happen. You wouldn't be your first guest. And, like, I think it's so fantastic how it's sort of. It's quite a while until we meet Captain Hook. Captain James Hook. As a Captain James Hook. Hook, the movie Hook really goes out of its way to let you know that Hook is both his real last name and also his affliction Docker. Captain James Hook.

[B]

Little nominative determinism there. It was ever mentioned.

[A]

Yes. And. And the way that, like, polishing his hook. Polishing his hook.

[B]

His different hooks for different things. And the get your own hook boy. You know, he's got his own get your own Hook.

[A]

And the way that when we get to London, the hook on the window latch.

[B]

Creepy.

[A]

Is like, focused on in this really menacing way. And also, I read that the announcer on the Pan Am flight is also Dustin Hoffman, which I would kind of want to rewatch again because just like, just sort of seed it throughout in the Voice. In the Voice. Yeah. It's. It's simply fabulous. And then, like, when they come home from the benefit of Great Ore Ministry Hospital, which I just let on again, that whole thing of, like, Peter giving his speech about orphans and everyone's standing up absolutely kills me. It's incredible. But then they come home from the benefit and there is, like, this hook scratch on the front door. And it's so scary.

[B]

And it goes all the way up the stairs into the children's room.

[A]

Yes. And Toodles is there.

[B]

I couldn't remember who Toodles was in the original.

[A]

No, me neither. I just know that he is in the original.

[B]

He's lost his marbles. He's a lost boy, I think.

[A]

But just the idea of an aged.

[B]

Dementia yet reimagined as, like, a child who hasn't grown up.

[A]

Yeah. Is really powerful and just so melancholy. And then, like, they go up and then there's the kind of. The message left by Hook. And the kids are gone, obviously. And then they call the police, the sergeant of which is played by Phil.

[B]

Collins, famous for being the father of Emily in Paris.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Wow. Ooh.

[B]

It's a stars that it curses that.

[A]

Family going to Europe for their things.

[B]

Go on their whole lives.

[A]

Yeah. And his only line of dialogue being. Well, given the literary history of the family. It could be a prank, which I just liked.

[B]

Yeah. I think, again, that moment of a prank where you steal someone's kids.

[A]

Yeah. Like a prank. And the kids are still gone. Phil Collins.

[B]

Right. Like, I often think I'll just prank my friends by stealing their children for a few nights. I don't think that if anyone's listening, I'm obviously not stealing anyone's kids. But like, what, what? What?

[A]

And then we get the moment where.

[B]

I think his relationship with Smee is very, very special.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Stop. Miss me.

[A]

Stop. Miss me.

[B]

Stop me. Stop me. Stop me.

[A]

Yeah, when he's trying to shoot himself in the head and stuff.

[B]

Don't stop me. Don't stop me. Don't stop me. Stop me. Great. I think you've read some great trivia about. About that. Yes. Dustin and Bob had realised something quite interesting.

[A]

Bob Hawkins play Smee and Dustin. Does he. And that they were. They rehearsed for quite a while before this. Like, again, the commitment to this family movie. And also, I guess, like, you know, to reiterate, these were people who would have grown up the generation where Peter Pan was at its most potent, that they wanted to do it really well. And like, they. They realized after they had been rehearsing for a while, they were playing them as two gay guys that like that canonically to both Bob Hoskins and Dustin Hoffman, Smee and Hook are gay. Like, they are old.

[B]

And I immediately said. I was like, yeah, of course they are.

[A]

Of course they are.

[B]

Of course they are. And they have a very beautiful relationship.

[A]

With one another and a very beautiful home.

[B]

That ship is quite something.

[A]

The inside of that ship, that's probably.

[B]

The only good bit of the set is Captain Hook's ship.

[A]

Yeah, the rest of the set is very ugly, but Captain Hook's quarters are sublime.

[B]

Sublime, sublime, sublime. I can see why Jack is tempted. This is a good point you actually made, I think the dynamic between Hook and Peter, which is mainly two adversaries across generations. Across generations. Played almost like Captain Hook's just a bit bored and he's like, without Peter to play with, what the fuck he's supposed to do with his life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's also kind of a layering in of when Hook takes his son, not his daughter, who he's not interested in, of course. No, not at all. She's just.

[A]

Well, no, actually that's. He sort of tries to school them.

[B]

To hate their parents, but she's not taking it.

[A]

She won't take to it. And I think there's one point where I thought was. It was like, oh, this deserves modern day memeification, where he goes up to her and he just says, before you were born, your parents just used to stay up all night, go dancing. They had a better time. And it reminds me of, like, oh, whenever, like, you're left alone with your. Your friend's kid and you're deserving, like, what? They were happier.

[B]

They used to have fun.

[A]

Yeah. And then. And then she's like, no. And he fails her, and she's like, loves me. She's so sweet.

[B]

She is extremely sweet. But he. So he sort of succeeds better with Jack, who's less kid.

[A]

Because Jack is already a less good kid. But he's already cynical about his daughter.

[B]

He's already cynical. And actually, as you pointed out, it's kind of. For Peter, this is a really devastating moment. And it sort of plays into that fear. The 1990s fear of divorce and another man raising your children.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just this kind of. The worst thing that can happen is that you neglect your family so much that your wife leaves you, take. Takes the kids and then marries someone else who's got a fabulous wig, is obviously gay with his friend Smee and has only one hand, but is somehow. But loves your kids better than you do. Because Hook's never mean to Jack. He's just like a better dad.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Which is fair enough.

[A]

He's just, like, extremely indulgent the way somebody who doesn't truly care about someone is.

[B]

Yeah, that is actually true.

[A]

And it actually reminded me very closely of Mrs. Doubtfire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That whole thing where Pierce Brosnan. Yeah.

[B]

Quite different. Quite different.

[A]

He has to watch Pierce Brosnan be very sweet with his kids while he's in the doghouse. But, like, he is Mrs. Doubtfire observing it. And it's. Yeah, it really. I do. I think, from what I recall, because I remember doing some trivia reading about Mrs. Doubtfire recently, that Robin Williams did have quite a bad divorce and, like, was quite hung up about this specific issue. And so it would make sense that would play into this project as well.

[B]

Yes, definitely.

[A]

And, yeah, as you say, a very. As we said, like, a very 90s concern of this. This huge flurry of divorce that was happening in the late 80s to mid-90s.

[B]

They hadn't invented blended families yet.

[A]

Yeah. And no one really quite knew what to. How to do it. But, like, what did you. How do you feel about the Lost Boys in general?

[B]

So I would say if I were editing this film.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I would cut. Is most. Most of what I would cut would be the Lost Boys. And part of that is because I think child actors can only sustain a scene for so long.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Particularly in an ensemble.

[A]

And these are good Child actors.

[B]

These are very good, but it gets. It gets old. The fight scene went on for, I would say, 20 minutes too long.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And was also, again, I felt like I've really struggled to stay in the Contract of Magic when it was clear that the stunts were being performed by adult men because they had the kids.

[A]

And then throwing an adult man on a ship.

[B]

Vastly different proportions to the children they were supposed to be representing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I was like, well, that's not the same person. That's 10 men jumping onto a ship. And now it's children and now it's men. And now there's like, mashed potato. I couldn't be arsed with that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think, actually, do you know what? I do think if I were, because I was looking at the notes I made almost every week, part of this film is in the Lost Boys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All the weird bits. Skateboarding the whole Rufio storyline.

[A]

I like Rufio.

[B]

But the end of his storyline.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's like, there are some incredibly heartfelt moments, as you say, the one which is, oh, Peter, there you are. That's beautiful. But things like the fact that Rufio gets killed just dead. No one does anything about it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No one seems bothered.

[A]

Yeah. Let's pause on this for a second.

[B]

Like, yeah, like, he's just dead. And Peter is like, oh, well, that sucks.

[A]

You killed Rufio and that's it.

[B]

And also, unless I'm really bad at counting early scenes of the film, loads of Lost Boys. I'd be like 40 at least. Final scene. About eight of them still standing, presumably. The rest have been all slain. Have been horrifically slain by adult pirates. No one's worried.

[A]

This is where the fantasy really breaks in the book. You're right. This is because, like, it is like, colorful sort of odd play. D'oh. Food and imagination and great adventures and like, gosh, war with the pirates and stuff. And then you're like, okay, so the. So the pirates can really murder the children. And Rufio has been stabbed to death.

[B]

Stabbed to death by Captain Hook. And the final thing he says is that he wished he had a dad like Peter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who then is like, oh, well, yeah, doesn't do anything with that.

[A]

And then. And then it's like. And then it kind of has an odd, like, moment of, okay, so I'm gonna go now Captain Hook, so don't be a cunt. And he goes, I won't be. And then Captain Hook goes, haha. And then, then Peter beats him again. And he goes, okay, now I'm really gonna go, now, don't be a cunt. And he's like, I will. Aha. And then again, and then it's the thing of like, okay, we're not. Not. It's like a very conscious, like, we're not gonna show Peter Pan killing Hook. And then I think that crocodile falls on him instead. And that's the end of Captain Hook. It's like that is the worst ending for that character ever.

[B]

I mean, to play the defense there of the crocodile, the whole point of Captain Hook's obsession with crocodile is that he's been told crocodile will kill him.

[A]

Yes, I get that.

[B]

So a crocodile has to kill him second.

[A]

But like a big paper mache crocodile.

[B]

Yeah, it feels like it was more of a taxidermied crocodile that falls on his head and then eats him. But personally, my take on that was that they needed to leave room for a sequel. If this film had not been a box office flop. And a man who's just disappeared inside a crocodile is sort of easier to resurrect than one who's been. Had his head chopped off or been thrown in the sea or something. I guess it was still badly done.

[A]

Even if he was thrown into the sea. And we saw the, like Scar's death in the Lion King, like, thrown to the hyenas. Like, even that would be better than, like, I suggested that, like. Yeah, it was just sort of a weird taxidermy crocodile falls on him in a weird angle. It was really bad and like a really bad ending for like a really terrific villainy.

[B]

Really. He deserved better than that.

[A]

Yeah. Bad form.

[B]

Bad form. Not of the indefatigable good form to which we are accustomed. Also couldn't really be fucked with the skateboarding Lost Boys. I just think. Do you know what? Maybe that was the main complaint. If I were reading through the lines of Roger Ebert's review. I think he just fucking hated the Lost Boys and the whole skateboarding treehouse area.

[A]

I feel much gentler for the Lost Boys than you do.

[B]

I see that. I see that.

[A]

I hear that.

[B]

I hear that. You do. I think they could have quite powerfully cut them down to four well cast Lost Boys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And had a more interesting and emotive story with 95 to 98% less coloured mashed potato.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No skateboards.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And no child turning himself into a wrecking ball and rolling himself down.

[A]

Yes, the child turning himself into a wrecking ball was not good. But also, like, parking in for a second would I have liked that as a kid. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So that bit was for the kids. That bit was for the kids. So the one thing we haven't touched on yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This entire time, Robin Williams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So many things to say about him.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

May I make three observations? The first observation, I will make Robin Williams hot.

[A]

Very hot.

[B]

So hot. I didn't know that because obviously he's quite a bit older than me.

[A]

Yeah. And now dead.

[B]

And now dead. But, I mean, he could still be hot even.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Even if he were, like, hot in this. If he were alive. But, like, I hadn't realized that because when I was a child, he was always in his 30s and 40s. He was, like, older than my dad. But now that he's in this film, roughly the same age as me, he's shirtless. And I was like, oh, my God. Maybe because I spent the whole day looking at dongs, but I was like, we were primed. I was like, that is a creamy lasagna.

[A]

Yeah, that is a creamy lasagna.

[B]

So that's the first thing I would say, which is just a bit of a thirst chap and, you know, objectifying Robin Williams. But I just want to put it out there. I think that man very beautiful.

[A]

I agree that.

[B]

Second thing I was gonna say is I honestly. And this kind of. We touched on it earlier. I don't think anyone else could have played this role.

[A]

Okay, interesting.

[B]

Anyone could play this role because I just don't think there is another actor who has the kind of range he has to be able to touch on, like, deep melancholy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sadness. But also, he's one of the few people, the few men who managed to kind of move between silliness and seriousness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And did it beautifully. And he plays this. I think he just plays it so well. He's like Michael Caine in the Muppets movie, you know, like. And you have said this, but anyone else could ham it and be like, oh, I'm being silly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he's like, no, I'm giving the performance of my lifetime. This is a serious film, and I'm doing serious things. Even when he's being said he's being serious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think anyone else could do this film.

[A]

That's so interesting because something that occurred to me this time watching it, because I love the performance, and I think you're dead right in that sense of, like, this is such a sad film. And maybe another part of the reason why it didn't perform well critically or commercially was, like, tonally it's mental. Like the depths of sadness it plunges to versus like the mad silliness is like quite. It's very inconsistent for people.

[B]

Yeah. You don't quite know where you are.

[A]

Yeah. You kind of want to be able to pause it and talk about it a bit more.

[B]

Rather than like.

[A]

Which we did a lot. Rather than just like. Okay, imagine you're going in Fresh in 1991. You've seen E.T. like, and this is kind of the natural follow on from that because that was Spielberg's big family favorite hit. You've seen Mrs. Doubtfire. You love Peter Pan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's quite a complicated movie with a lot of very interesting things to say about men and the patriarchy and aging and childhood and like women and how we abandon them. And like it's, it's, it's dense.

[B]

It's like it's dense and it's.

[A]

And. And totally weird.

[B]

Like totally weird. I mean. And again, I couldn't find any information about this, but I assume he was ad living, ad libbing for quite a lot.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Which kind of condition of his work a lot.

[B]

Pretty much. But there were definitely moments where I would be like, I even wrote some down. I've never taken drugs because I missed the 60s. I was an accountant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That wasn't in the script. And I love that it wasn't in the script because Robin Williams being great. No one else would have done that.

[A]

Yeah. He made a sort of a Lord of the Flies joke as well.

[B]

Lord of the Flies joke. He says that Dinky Bell's got lovely legs. He just. Yeah, he's very. He. I. Yeah. I think again as a child I was like, funny man.

[A]

Haha. Yeah.

[B]

Didn't understand how extraordinary he was at his job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you can't when you're a kid. I like when you're 10. He's amazing. What a talent.

[A]

And then when he. Like that thing of when he finds Wendy's house.

[B]

Oh gosh. He's.

[A]

Did that get you? Yeah, yeah. Why did. Okay. Considering every part of this film gets me. What part of this got you?

[B]

Just that kind of. I just think it's a feeling we all recognize when we like something that we've forgotten for such a long time that was so precious to us that we would never have a million years thought we'd forget. We find it. It's like when you're in your house and you're tidying something up and you look at a box and you're like, oh my God, this thing. And it's just like a key that unlocks so many memories. Sometimes of good things, sometimes with bad things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you growing up, you're.

[A]

You.

[B]

Like, my parents would always be like, oh, you'll forget so much stuff when you're old like me. And I was like, I will never be that dumb. I am that dumb. I forget everything all the time because there's so much more to hold in my silly, tiny little brain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you can't have that experience when you're a kid, but as an adult, you know exactly what it feels like to suddenly be transported back to just something, even something as small as. And this is so not the same as finding something in childhood. Like, I was walking through a neighborhood I used to live in recently, but I do not live in anymore, and I was like, what? The nostalgia. It's been like seven years, but do you remember exactly what it used to be and the things you felt in different places? And so we just. That. That kind of got me because now I'm old enough. I'm roughly the age that Peter Pan is in this film, or at least his, you know, supposed age, 38, which is where he's in fact. 300. But no, but, yeah, that sort of moment of. Yeah. Realizing that actually you'd forgotten this whole thing that was so special to you.

[A]

Yeah. And the whole thing of like. And that was Wendy's chair, but she. It was over there.

[B]

Oh, and he just knew everything.

[A]

The way he delivers it, it's. Is so emotional.

[B]

And he's like, this is where John slept with Michael in his little bed. And then now we're like, and Michael's probably dead in the war.

[A]

Yeah. All these people are probably dead in the war. Oh, no, you all died in the water. Probably.

[B]

He just did it so perfectly. Like, I just. I'm gonna put it out there. This film was a commercial flop. And then obviously it's come a cult classic. It's become a cult classic because of its cast.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I would say at least. At least 50% of that goes to.

[A]

Robin Williams and 50% to Dustin Hoffman.

[B]

50%. It's Dustin Hoffman and the rest. Yeah. 50% Robin Williams, 25% Dustin Hoffman, 30% Dustin Hoffman, 20% the others.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

That's how I'm dividing the success.

[A]

Agreed. While we're discussing Robin Williams sexiness, I think it's great the way that he. Robin Williams, fully gets off with four women who isn't his wife.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Three of them are mermaids for no reason. He just gets off with them.

[B]

For a bit, just gets off with him and then Tinkerbell.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Because why? Because Tinkerbell made a wish so big that, like, what was it like? Her feelings were so big.

[B]

It's the only wish she's ever wished and this is the only time she's been big enough to have it. Very Taylor Swift.

[A]

Very Taylor Swift. And like. Yeah. So she just, like, grows to adult size.

[B]

So Peter, for like three minutes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She didn't have to get off with Peter Pan.

[A]

Yeah. Her one dream. And it's really interesting the way it's done and like, what it's saying about stuff, because he remembers what it is to be Peter Pan. And he. Brilliant sort of food, imaginary food scene, which I love, and all the bits. And he wins the Lost Boys back and they're all on his team. And then he sort of forgets why he's in Neverland to begin with. And Tink has to remind him and he's like, whatever kind of thing. And then she grows to adult female, human size and she's like, well, I'm sort of big enough for you now. And then she kisses him and then he remembers his wife and remembers his family. And this.

[B]

Oh, it is a well stuffed Kong, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, it's a well stuffed Kong. Something we've been saying a lot on this holiday is if anyone has a dog or knows a dog, you may be familiar with the dog toy Kong, where you can often, if your dog is on pills, which my dog often is on some form of pill or another, you can stuff the pill into the Kong with peanut butter just right. So whenever me and Jen are talking about, like, you know, books or movies that have things, you know, themes or messages.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We're like, oh, that's a badly stuffed con.

[B]

You can really see the horse pill hanging out the side of that one. You can really taste the chalkiness versus when you're like, they've really mashed that pill into the creamy peanut button, haven't you? You have to look for the pill. You kind of know what's in there.

[A]

And we have decided, though, you have.

[B]

To really get in with your tongue properly.

[A]

You want that pill, you've got to.

[B]

Delve into the Kong. And I think, does.

[A]

Does hook sometimes fail as a family adventure?

[B]

Yes, but it's a phenomenally stuffed Kong.

[A]

It's such a well stuffed Kong because the messages are so satisfying if you use your tongue to look for them.

[B]

And I think Peter kissing four women and then remembering he's got a wife.

[A]

Is like, look, that's how men do it sometimes. That's how they gotta do it.

[B]

Doobie that way, though, doesn't it?

[A]

Sometimes they got a kid, four women to realize they love their family.

[B]

Three of them underwater at the spa.

[A]

What is the point of them kissing those three mermaids, do you think?

[B]

I think it was partly a thing about, like, oxygenation. Partly because there's just always a kind of sexy vibe between Peter Pan and the mermaids, isn't there?

[A]

Is that a thing?

[B]

I believe so. I believe there's a whole thing with Tiger Lily in the book, Play Whatever. And I think it's just always interpreted as being like, you know, they're mermaids, they're cockettes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're out there.

[A]

So the first thing, he doesn't ever get off with three mermaids.

[B]

How else is he gonna reclaim his childhood self?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How is he gonna get back into that energy? So he does kiss a lot of women who aren't his wife. But he does then remember he has a wife.

[A]

I guess that's okay. What happens? Neverland stays in Neverland.

[B]

Yeah. Who's gonna tell on him? The mermaids? They're not there. That is an odd moment. Another odd moment is the child singing to the moon with very wide mouth gestures.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. We decided that was fully taken from An American Tale somewhere. I'm really glad. Something I'm really sad about is that we don't have more live action family adventures. And it is all animated now. And it's also a form of animation mostly. That's really uninteresting to look at. I think that's really sad. I wish there was more live action family adventures. But what I am glad that we don't have any more is children singing.

[B]

Children singing at the moon with very exaggerated mouth movements.

[A]

Yeah. Don't care for it.

[B]

No, I don't care for it. So do you know the one thing about this film which the Kong is stuffed so well?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So power so well. Like Journey to the center of the Kong.

[A]

Journey to the center of the Con. Love it.

[B]

Why the fuck is it called Hook?

[A]

Why?

[B]

It's not about James Hook. It just isn't. Yeah, he's in it for the second half and he dies at the end. Why is it called?

[A]

Because. No, I would. I mean, to answer.

[B]

I've got three potential answers. But you tell me what yours are.

[A]

I mean, I think that the. The most realistic answer is the most boring one. Which is that there were already too many properties called Pan or Peter Pan or whatever. And so Hook was the most attractive thing, marketing wise.

[B]

No, Hook was the most attractive thing, marketing wise.

[A]

Yeah. Because he's, like, the most iconic character who is in Peter Pan, but then.

[B]

They call it Captain Hook, not just Hook.

[A]

All right, okay. What's your theory?

[B]

I'm.

[A]

You have two theories.

[B]

Okay, theory one, Dirty center of the Kong. There's some kind of meaning semiotically attached a hook that we have not got yet. Like, there are hooks in that film even early on. You see the hook on the window about being hooked into. About a hook that's so deep in you, you can never leave it behind. Maybe there was something there that was meant to be revealed. And Carrie Fisher was like, this is absolute fucking nonsense. I'm taking it out. But they'd already announced the film name, so they had to have it. Okay, that's Theory One and Theory One.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

Theory Two. They were hoping to make a franchise. We were gonna go into the backstory for Hook. We were going. The sequel would have been the backstory, or it would have been like, where did he come from? Why is he a pirate? What's he doing?

[A]

Yeah. And why is the primary conflict in this world children versus pirate? Why are all adults pirates?

[B]

What's he got against children?

[A]

So I rewatched Pirates of the Caribbean recently, and having just watched this now, like, it does make me wish that somehow, through space and time, this exact script with this exact cast could be made, but poured into the pirates of the Curse of the Black Pearl shell. Because the pirates just have more legitimacy and the world has more salt to it than the world of Hook. Which I do think that the major failing of it is the stakes are kind of all over the place. Because if Rufio can real world die. But also the main weapons are like tomatoes. What are we dealing with here?

[B]

Hook wants to murder children. Children are bowling ball. Children can be stabbed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hook hasn't really got any particular motive that we know. I want the backstory, and I want. I want the gritty urban backstory.

[A]

Yeah. To Hook.

[B]

I want to understand what made him the way he was.

[A]

Yeah. I could do that.

[B]

So that's my second theory. My third theory is that any franchise of Peter Pan has to be signed off by the front by the estate holders. So in this case, the estate of Peter Pan and potentially even the Great Ormond Street Hospital. And there were just too many mentions of suicide, prostitutes, the word arse, and kind of generally not quite family film level things for them to permit the words Peter Pan to be put on the Tiger. I think stranger things have happened.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because, like, Hook. I bet you couldn't trademark the word hook. I think Captain Hook, you could trademark Peter Pan. You could. Neverland. You could.

[A]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[B]

So I just wonder if actually when the final script went or the final, like, you know, the early cut was shown, whoever it was who was at that point looking after JM Barrie's estate and Great Ormond Street Hospital were like, you're not putting the words Peter Pan on this title. It's in the film. We've already signed that off. But you can't call it Peter Pan or Return to Neverland or anything. That's my third one.

[A]

That's really good.

[B]

I think that's probably most likely I'll.

[A]

Enjoy all those theories, but that last one most of all.

[B]

Yeah. I think the fact that there is in the credits just like, prostitute one, prostitute two, prostitute three.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People shout ass a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just. It's.

[A]

It's also. It's. It's scary. Like when Glenn Close gets put in the boo box. Like. Right. That's hard going. Yeah. One last thing that I like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I know that there is some strange fat jokes in this movie that don't really belong or make sense a lot of the time, but one thing I really liked was when he is. When Peter is giving his sword away. And I can't remember the name of the character, but the fat child who's often played for fat labs in this film, he gives the sword to him to be his kind of successor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he says, you have to look after everybody who's smaller than you.

[B]

That is a really lovely moment. Really nice. You're right.

[A]

And there are just very.

[B]

It does redeem itself a bit in that moment.

[A]

Yeah. There. You could probably count on one hand the amount of family films that really empower and ennoble fat children. The other one I think about is in School of Rock, when the. One of the girls, the girl with the great voice, I actually haven't seen.

[B]

It, so I'm just nodding at you.

[A]

Well, she comes up to Jack Black and she says, I can't be in the band. And he says, why? You've got an amazing voice. And she says, well, because I'm fat. And he doesn't say to her, no, you're not. He says, so. So am I. So was Aretha Franklin. And everybody wanted a party. Party with her. And, like, he just. He's like. He just, like. He never says, like, this is a problem or. No, you're not. He just says, like it. It can be one thing about you, but there can be many things about you. And I think there's a similar treatment of this child. Yeah, that's very true of, like, this is one thing about you, but there are many things about you.

[B]

That's very true. I did like that, too. It's. Look, it's a very good film.

[A]

It's good. I understand why people didn't like it now that we've really talked about it for an hour and a half.

[B]

But also I understand why people like it enough that they wanted us to do this, even though it's very much off the beaten track for sentimental garbage. Yeah, well, what is continental garbage if not the breakfast you're getting given?

[A]

But it is again, like, it does sort of fit in that. No, it doesn't generally fit because it's a kids movie.

[B]

And it's also very much very adult for a kids movie.

[A]

It's very adult for a kids movie. And it's very specifically for and about boys. Like, this is about the boy child experience and the father experience in a way that Spielberg movies often are. And it's often hard to see the space for the girl child in this. But at the same time, it is such sentimental garbage. It doesn't quite hang together. It's so emotional. And in many places, that emotion isn't totally earned, which makes it sentimental. And so, yeah, I think. I think it is so splendid. I think it's so fantastic and such an amazing example of what great fantasy storytelling can be on screen that we don't get enough of these days.

[B]

More of this, please.

[A]

More of this, please. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you. And from Norway, whatever they say here, good night.

[A]

Good night from Norway, everyone.

[B]

Good night from Norway.

[A]

It.