Labyrinth with Juno Dawson

Summary

Sentimental Garbage: Episode Summary - "Labyrinth with Juno Dawson"

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Juno Dawson

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Introduction

In this episode of Sentimental Garbage, hosted by Caroline O'Donoghue, Caroline engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned author and pop culture enthusiast Juno Dawson. The focus of their discussion centers around the cult classic film Labyrinth, exploring its enduring legacy, thematic depth, and personal impacts on both hosts.

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Exploring Labyrinth: Themes and Connections

Six Degrees of Connection
The episode begins with Juno Dawson drawing parallels between the game "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" and the interconnectedness reflected in Labyrinth. Juno elaborates on how the film underscores the invisible ties that bind individuals in a seemingly vast world.

“The web is far more sprawling than that... these connections can be so thrilling.” ([00:44])

Personal Connection to Labyrinth
Caroline shares her childhood experiences with the film, highlighting how Labyrinth became her favorite movie after being unable to watch Basil the Great Mouse Detective due to its scarier content.

“I had to go see Basil the Great Mouse Detective, which is fucking terrifying. So actually, the scary bat thing in Basil the Great Mouse Detective is scarier than anything in Labyrinth.” ([07:12])

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Character Analysis and Symbolism

Sarah and the Journey of Growth
Both hosts delve into the protagonist Sarah's journey, interpreting it as a metaphor for the transition from childhood to adulthood. Caroline emphasizes the intentional casting of a character on the brink of womanhood as a pivotal element of the film's narrative.

“This is a film about a young adult who has to make a choice between embracing adulthood and leaving children behind...” ([07:30])

Jareth as a Complex Figure
Jareth, portrayed by David Bowie, is analyzed as both a symbol of the unknown and a representation of Sarah's inner fears about growing up. The conversation touches upon the controversial aspects of Bowie's portrayal and real-life allegations surrounding his relationships.

“He was deemed that the coolest man in rock and roll was now doing kids' films in a codpiece. Yeah. And we've got to slam this back down.” ([42:32])

Supporting Characters: Hoggle, Ludo, and the Goblins
The discussion also covers the supporting characters, particularly Hoggle, whose fluctuating loyalty and complexity add depth to the narrative. Caroline and Juno critique his portrayal, comparing him to modern representations of masculinity in media.

“Hoggle is the BoJack Horseman of the Year... he just sucks.” ([64:43])

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Production Insights and Artistic Choices

Puppeteering and Practical Effects
The hosts express admiration for Jim Henson's practical effects and puppeteering, lamenting the industry's shift towards CGI. They discuss how the tangible artistry of puppets in Labyrinth contributes to its eerie and enchanting atmosphere.

“I just fucking love puppets. Yeah, I love how many of them.” ([38:51])

Iconic Scenes and Visuals
Certain scenes, such as the Helping Hands sequence and the Bog of Eternal Stench, are highlighted for their creativity and lasting impact. Caroline shares behind-the-scenes anecdotes, emphasizing the technical prowess involved in bringing these visions to life.

“The helping hands are really free... so cool just watching those little faces.” ([39:04])

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Cultural Impact and Legacy

Critical Reception vs. Cult Status
Despite its mixed initial reviews, Labyrinth has achieved a passionate cult following over the decades. The hosts reflect on how time has vindicated the film's artistic bravery and imaginative storytelling.

“Now they all have T-shirts, franchises, video essays... Artistic bravery so inspiring.” ([80:37])

Comparisons to Other Fantasy Works
Labyrinth is compared to other fantasy classics like The Wizard of Oz and The Dark Crystal, with discussions on how each film portrays the journey of self-discovery through fantastical settings.

“Jareth is both the Wicked Witch and the wizard at the same time, which is, like, an interesting duality.” ([66:54])

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Personal Reflections and Authorial Insights

Influence on Writing and Storytelling
Caroline and Juno share how Labyrinth and similar fantasy works have influenced their approaches to writing, particularly in creating immersive and rule-bound magical systems.

“You have to stick to your own rules, otherwise you can get yourself into trouble.” ([70:40])

Navigating Multi-Hyphenate Careers
The conversation shifts to the challenges and rewards of maintaining multifaceted careers as authors and podcasters, touching upon themes of imposter syndrome and the desire for artistic integrity.

“It's quite interesting to talk to people who are in the same boat.” ([75:57])

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Conclusion

Caroline and Juno conclude their discussion by reaffirming their appreciation for Labyrinth's magical storytelling and its significance in their personal and professional lives. They express hope that future works will continue to embody the bold creativity exemplified by Jim Henson's masterpiece.

“Thank you for having me. Anytime.” ([81:55])

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Notable Quotes

• Juno Dawson on Connections:
  “These connections can be so thrilling.” ([00:44])

• Caroline on Personal Impact:
  “I could see myself in Sarah.” ([28:49])

• Juno Dawson on Puppetry:
  “Everybody loves puppets.” ([38:57])

• Caroline on Jareth's Symbolism:
  “He represents the great unknown that she has to move towards.” ([52:25])

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Sentimental Garbage offers a heartfelt and analytical exploration of Labyrinth, blending nostalgic reflections with critical discourse. Through Caroline and Juno's engaging dialogue, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the film's multifaceted legacy and its resonance in contemporary culture.

Transcript

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[Juna Dawson]

Did you guys ever used to play that game on long car journeys? And it was called. Well, our version of it was called Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. And the whole idea was that, like, Kevin Bacon had been in so many movies that everybody on earth was, like, somehow connected to him, even if it was by six degrees of separation. And the more you play a game like that, and you can, like, substitute basically any famous person who works a lot with Kevin Bacon, you can do Six Degrees of Jeff Goldblum or Six Degrees of Taylor Swift. But the. The point of the game isn't really about how famous these people are or how much they work. It's actually about how connected we are in a world that seems so big. But there are all these invisible connections that tether us together and actually bring us far closer than it seems. We might seem quite isolated. We might seem that we only live in our house and we know the kind of 200 people that we know. But actually, the web is far more sprawling than that. And it's like one of these things that continues to bring me, like, so much joy, particularly as I, you know, go on podcast tours and I might meet someone at, like, a show in Edinburgh who happened to know someone who was at my show in Brisbane, which is at the other side of the world. And, you know, these connections can be so thrilling. But. So I think sometimes that we forget that the connections kind of work the other way too. Like, if you can be six degrees of separation from someone like Taylor Swift, then that must also mean that you could be three or four or five degrees of separation from somebody who is, for example, being murdered in a tent in Gaza. So I've decided that if I can talk for hundreds of hours on how I feel about Taylor Swift and Sex and the City and all these movies that I love talking about and all these little things I love obsessing about. If I can go on and on about my sort of emotional and spiritual connections to these pieces of media and these artists who make them, then I can also talk about the connections that go the other way. And today I want to talk about Aboot. So Abood is 20 years old and He's Palestinian, and he lives in Gaza. And he reached out to me a couple of months ago after I donated to one of his fundraising pages. And since then, we just. We've stayed in touch and we talk kind of once a week. And I learn about what he's up to. And what he's up to, I'm sure won't surprise you at all, is surviving. He lives with his parents. He has six sisters and one brother, Mohammed, who is the baby of the family and who recently actually sustained a massive injury when he was playing in the street and some shrapnel from a nearby exploding building struck him in the head. And he's had to have surgery. Now, Abud has been responsible for essentially crowdfunding that surgery and crowdfunding the medicine that's come after it to help manage his brother's pain and manage his nutrition levels, infection risks, all of that, along with crowdfunding the food his family are eating every single day. Because as he said to me in one message that I haven't really forgotten, and that kind of broke my brain a little bit. He said, the places where I'm supposed to get help are too dangerous for me to go. And you know that line, that sentence? I was like, wow, I could write for 100 years and not write something that haunting. Because this is his experience. The UN has reported that up to 400 Palestinians have been killed just trying to get aid from Israeli managed sites. And I don't know what to do with my brain in that situation. I knew that this war had spiraled into a genocide a long time ago, but this level of brutality, this level of just blanket cruelty, I don't know. It took my levels of sort of understanding of the world to, like, a new frontier, I think. So I'm gonna include Abood's crowdfunding link in the show notes here. And maybe you want to donate to him, but maybe you want to donate to other people as well. Maybe you see these kind of just giving links coming up in your Instagram stories all the time, but you don't really know if you should donate to them because it feels more appropriate to donate to a larger charity. And for what? I do that too, you know, Like, I've done a lot of crowdfunding for War Child through this podcast that I'm very proud of. But when the aid isn't getting through and that the aid that is getting through comes with a side of butchery, all you can really do at that point is sign petitions, go to protests, and support individuals, put £20 or £5 or whatever into any crowdfund that you see that speaks to you. And, yeah, you might not see the difference today. You might never see the difference. You might never even find out whether the person who you donated to has lived or died. But you also don't know who that money is supporting and who that person is saving and who those people will save and how the butterfly effect of people helping people will eventually culminate. And I have to believe in that. And I have to. Otherwise, I think I'd lose all hope. Anyway, that's it for me this week. Enjoy the podcast. Hello, and welcome to Magical Garbage, the podcast miniseries where we talk about the enchanted trash that made us who we are. My name is Caroline, and David Bowie's codpiece may seem bizarre, but it is, in fact, intentional. And joining me is just a crystal, nothing more. It's Juna Dawson.

[Caroline]

Hello. Thank you for having me.

[Juna Dawson]

What a fantastic, fantastic choice.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Well, this film, and I'm not here to take questions about it, it's the best film ever made. Like, if I had to narrow it down to five, that would be really easy because there'd be Scream and Clueless and the Craft. But if I really did just have to pick one film, I think it would be Labyrinth.

[Juna Dawson]

Really? And has that always been the case for you? Like, how did this movie come into your life?

[Caroline]

So my first knowledge of it is I remember being told that me and my dad were gonna go see Labyrinth.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then they had heard on the grapevine it was too scary.

[Juna Dawson]

Okay.

[Caroline]

And I would have only been five.

[Juna Dawson]

Right.

[Caroline]

So instead, I had to go see Basil the Great Mouse Detective, which is fucking terrifying. So actually, the scary bat thing in Basil the Great Mouse Detective is scarier than anything in Labyrinth.

[Juna Dawson]

Is Basil the Great Mouse Detective? Is that like a Sherlock Holmes? Y for kids, but mice. Correct. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, this is Basil scarier than this?

[Caroline]

Oh, 100%.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. I wouldn't call this outrightly scary. I would say it is eerie, disturbing, and it leaves a kind of a stain on your soul, like a watermark or a grease mark on you, because it's enchanting. But it's also kind of icky and gross and in ways that aren't, like, specific.

[Caroline]

The bug of eternal Stench. The bug of eternal smell forever.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But I think the monster design, with it being Jim Henson's creature workshop, it feels really real in a way that things now don't feel real. And, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about the ever present possibility of a labyrinth 2, which is constantly talked about. But I kind of hope they don't because I don't think they would do it with real puppetry.

[Juna Dawson]

I hope so as well. I mean, apparently the Dark Crystal remake they did for Netflix was wonderful. I didn't actually see it, but I think not only would it be not as good from the point of view of, like, those professionals aren't. Of course, they still exist, people who fabricate and make puppets and are puppeteers and stuff, but we have so moved the industry over to computer generated stuff that, like, we wouldn't be able to remake it on that level on, like a textural sort of. You can really see these puppets and you can see them operate and move. But also on a story level, I feel like we're asking for far more literalism these days that wouldn't allow for the strange, murky, kind of logistical nightmare that is the labyrinth. Do you know what I mean?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

Like, it is storytelling that is kind of felt rather than understood. Like, there are so many things about the Labyrinth that make no sense at all, but are just kind of vibes or visual set pieces or just they're about how they make you feel or how they feel to Sarah and not about how they make linear sense or anything.

[Caroline]

You know, the spine of the plot is very simple, which is that she has. Is it 13 hours to rescue her brother from Jaref the Goblin King, or he will become a goblin forever.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But then along the way, like you said, it's a series of set pieces involving creepy, disembodied hands, swamps, dogs riding dogs.

[Juna Dawson]

It's all great dogs riding dog, babies having babies and dogs having dogs. What is the society coming through Brooke and Britain? But, like, when I was rewatching it, it's an interesting thing when you're rewatching this movie as an adult and alone for a podcast, because it's the kind of thing that should be sort of seen as kind of a sleepover as a kid or seen as group viewing as an adult. And it really struck me when I was rewatching it by myself last night. I was like, there's really a number of ways you can, like, take this movie if you want. You can really go hell for leather and like, study what it's trying to say about adulthood and growing up and womanhood and desire and that. Or you can just be like, this is a bunch of fun bits and, like, both of them are like, as satisfying as the other. Yeah.

[Caroline]

I think that's why it endures I think had it just been an adventure through a maze, we wouldn't be talking about it over 30 years later. I think Jim Henson and I, there is a beautiful companion book that goes with it that's like a making of. And obviously, Jim Henson died a very long time ago, but there is some commentary from him. And it was intentional, the fact that they were very. When they were casting the role of Sarah, they were determined that she would be on the cusp of womanhood. That this is a film about a young adult who has to make a choice between embracing adulthood and leaving children behind or remaining a child for one more day. And that's kind of very deliberate. And so I think that's why it's so beloved. And I know as well, for a lot of 80s kids, like, Jareth was a sexual awakening, which he was not for me, really, but just not my type. I honestly fancy Luda more than I fancy Jareth, but I can see why. Again, the older man. We shall probably talk about that as well, but the older man obsessed with an ordinary teenage girl. And, you know, you can trace that all the way through to Labyrinth. No, we're talking about Labyrinth, Twilight. It's the same plot. Like an eternal supernatural figure obsessed with you, the reader. The seemingly ordinary girl who's sort of chosen. The chosen one.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. And the. It's so interesting talking about Jareth and Sarah and this whole thing of, like, we open with Sarah and, like, there's a very. We get so little of Sarah's, like, real world, except that she's sort of into fantasy. Probably a bit too old to be as into fairy tales as she is. And the one kind of directive that we have from her, her stepmother and her father is that, like, you, she should really be dating boys by now.

[Caroline]

I'd love it if you had a date.

[Juna Dawson]

I love it.

[Caroline]

You should be dating. You should be dating at your age. Brutal. She should have said, I'm gay.

[Juna Dawson]

I'm gay, gay, gay, gay. But it's like. It's like the one real thing we learn about her. Like, we see things through the camera of, like, oh, she obviously. Her mother isn't in the scene anymore. Her mother was an actor. This is how she kind of relates to her mother. Maybe her mother ran off with David Bowie himself. We don't know. It's kind of hinted at in the photographs around the room, which is like deep Labyrinth lore.

[Caroline]

But, like, oh, I thought she was just dead.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Caroline]

Oh, I had her down as an orphan.

[Juna Dawson]

I also had her down as orphan. Cause it just feels more traditional fairy tale landscape. But I don't know. There are theories. Of course, with any movie this vague and this beloved, there are going to be many, many theories. But there's something that very real about Jareth is sort of the figure of her fantasies. And he is. It's really unclear what he wants because he's stolen the baby. At her wishes. At her specific wishes. Her wishes that woke up the goblins, which I love.

[Caroline]

Did she say it yet? Oh, that's so good.

[Juna Dawson]

They're so good. Them as the first little winkle of magic. While you're like, oh, well, I'm in my bar now, in my play. And then it's suddenly she says the words and all the Muppety goblins wake up. And you're like, oh, we're ready for a party.

[Caroline]

Oh, they're so cute. It's the one that scurries across the floor as well. They're so naughty.

[Juna Dawson]

Sorry, before I carry on, I feel like. I'm sorry.

[Caroline]

We're very excited about the Goblins.

[Juna Dawson]

I'm so excited. Yeah. Let me park Jareth and Sexuality for two seconds because that will be so much of this podcast. But first, I would like to ask you what your relationship is with Muppets, puppets, et cetera.

[Caroline]

Again, I'm deceptively elderly, so I was born 1981. And so I did grow up on Doctor who, obviously. That's come full circle.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes. Congratulations, by the way.

[Caroline]

Thank you so much. Dark crystal. But weirdly, my ex from a long, long time ago was very much a Dark crystal person, whereas I was very much Team Labyrinth. And so I think there is a little bit of. You had to choose your team. But I also grew up, you know, every Christmas, those 1970s Muppet movies would be on really heavy rotation. And as well, you know, the original Star wars movies always take. I would always, always take those over the later CGI ones. Like, there was something about, you know, when Princess Leia is chained to Jabba the Hutt in Return of the Jedi, he's real and he looks disgusting and awful. And, you know, and I do. I think for me, it was when I first saw the Matrix in around 99, 2000, that I realized something had gone forever and that we weren't gonna go back to those real solid, fabricated things. And I was like, this is a real shame.

[Juna Dawson]

It is a real shame. And like, you know, and then the kind of the jump from the Matrix to Lord of the Rings, and then you write that that is a Real moment of kind of losing things forever, I guess.

[Caroline]

Jurassic park as well. But then Jurassic park had birth. Jurassic park had animatro and cgi. Because dinosaurs aren't real anymore. They're not real dinosaurs. Caroline. I'm so sorry if that has ruined Christmas. But the 90s, I guess, were a transitional period from puppetry to CGI. But then, you know, having worked on Doctor who when I was in Cardiff last year, you know, some of those monsters are still real. Yeah, there was a big. I believe they're called man traps. There was a man trap from season one just sort of sat in a lot. So now sort of just waiting for its next outing, kind of.

[Juna Dawson]

I love the idea that he's just sort of dormant, waiting for the next.

[Caroline]

Round, waiting for somebody else to put him in a new episode to cover him in lubricant. He was a drippy monster.

[Juna Dawson]

Oh, oozing, oozing lubricant. But that whole thing, this is something I'm obsessed with and something I really want to get into in this series about, like the fact that the contract that we used to sign, the kind of the sort of imagination moral contract that we would sign with magical things in the kind of 80s and 90s was far looser kind of thing. It really didn't take an awful lot for us to believe in something, whether that's sort of the puppetry work that you see in films like this, or even something that doesn't have an enormous amount of anything really going on, apart from costumes and script, like the Princess Bride. Right. That's just like the rodents of unusual size are, like, hilariously bad. No one's trying to trick you that much, but. Or even like things like Conan the Barbarian, Xena, Warrior Princess.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, Just sort of like breastplates in a dream, do you mean?

[Caroline]

See, it's interesting you mentioned Princess Bright, because I didn't see that till I was an adult.

[Juna Dawson]

Oh, really?

[Caroline]

And the flip side of that is my now ex, I sat down and showed him Labyrinth for the first time as an adult. And he was like, I can't believe you bought this as a child. And I was like, well, yeah, but that's because you're seeing it now as an adult. You weren't there in 1986 as a child, kind of. And so I do think if you didn't see any of those things you mentioned as a kid, and I wonder if it's a childishness. We are more prepared to believe in magic. We're more prepared to suspend disbelief and really Go there. And I mean, the ultimate one for me was I saw Nightmare on Elm street when I was 10. And it traumatized me. Like, I knew it was a horror film, but I was scared of going to sleep. Cause I was genuinely scared that I would have a nightmare about Freddy Krueger. And whereas now I'm like, bring it on. It'd be quite interest. That would keep me entertained of an evening, wouldn't it? But, yeah, it was. I think it's really hard to separate how I feel about Labyrinth now because of how I felt about it as a child. Yeah, it's magic in itself.

[Juna Dawson]

And like this sort of thing that was. It was texture as well as story. Right. Cause it just had this. It's part of the grain of. It almost feels like it's like this big soup of magical stuff. And you're just getting the top skim of it. It's just because of the layers of creation that are going into it. With the story, with the music, with the casting, with the puppets, with the scenery, with everything. It just feels like sort of so many hands have built this lore and this maze together. And you're just getting the top of it. And there's all this stuff that might be going on when you're not watching. And it makes you watch it even deeper because you think that you're gonna catch something on the Next View that you didn't catch the last time. Because you're so convinced on a deep subconscious level that this world exists when you're not watching. And you can only do that when something is as intentionally made as this. And I think I just have so much sorrow in my heart for things that don't feel like this anymore. And I do think that we're gonna get it back. I have. This is partly what this sort of miniseries is about, is that if you look at the kind of. The dark fantasy boom of the 80s, which very much came out of, like. If you think of, like, Walt Disney died in 1966. Right. Sorry to go all the way back here.

[Caroline]

I love that because.

[Juna Dawson]

History lesson.

[Caroline]

Love it.

[Juna Dawson]

So Disney dies in 1966. And he was the person who was like, heading up, like, the. He owned fairy tales, right. And so Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella and all these lush animated features. When we received all of the repackaging of the Brothers Grimm tales, which are like these linear morality tales really about, like, how you should be as a child and what will happen to you if you're not, and blah, blah, blah. And then he dies. And then, like, I was kind of looking into the history of this for a long time. There's nothing basically like. It's all about the kind of hyper realistic cinema of the 70s. And at the end of the 70s, we get star wars, and then we suddenly get this kind of burst of everything, like fantasy storytelling coming through again. And it's like all the people who grew up on Sleeping Beauty with Walt Disney taking the fairy tale and sort of subverting it against itself. And we've got Dungeons and Dragons happening at the same time. We've got arcade games happening at the same time. And it's like for the first time in the late 70s and 80s, people are coming together with their shared vision of what a magical world might look like. So people are sitting around and being like, Dungeons and Dragons. What do we think the lair looks like? Or even crowding around an arcade game and being like, we all know we're looking at stuff. Space invaders that are tiny little white blocks on the screen. But we're all sharing in our brains together a vision of what this looks like in our head.

[Caroline]

It's so interesting, isn't it? Like, the archetypes, like, if we were to go out on the street now and ask people to describe heaven, it'd be so interesting to see how many people mention clouds or angels or gates. And I wonder sometimes where these archetypes come from. Like, Star wars was not the first science fiction, obviously. So it's funny that we do share. But that's why fantasy's so lovely and it's why I love writing fantasy, because it's like you're inviting people into your delusion. And I enjoy that. I'm like, come and stay a while. It's nice in here.

[Juna Dawson]

And there are tenets of shared delusion that you can build new delusion around. So you do a lot with witches. And witches are a deep. There's a deep lore and deep sort of references that you can pull from, but you're doing something entirely new with HMRC or Queen Bee or whatever. So it's like you're giving people enough tentpoles to cling to so that they can go on this huge journey with you. You know, it's like some will be familiar, some will be new.

[Caroline]

Well, it's like, I remember when the show was previously being adapted a couple of years back, and the writer was not a big fantasy head, and she was like, let's talk about the flying, because it kind of takes me out of it. And I was like, they're witches. I was like, name me a Witch who does not fly. Like, from Mildred Hubble to Scarlet Witch to Sandra Bullock in Practical Magic, which is fly, you know, you kind of have to give the audience what they want. As Rita Ora said, give the gays everything they want every time.

[Juna Dawson]

This is the second time you've been on this podcast and the second time you've brought up Rita Ora. It's really unreleased.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. The impact she's had on me. Who knew the impact on women. Sorry, Rita. Well, I was about to go on a deep dive about her Primark line then, but we shan't.

[Juna Dawson]

We shan't, we shan't, we shan't.

[Caroline]

We simply will not.

[Juna Dawson]

But like, coming back to archetypes, I think with the Labyrinth, it's like. What's so fascinating about it, if you do want to really get into the minutiae of this movie, is that it is about archetypes and it's about somebody who has spent their entire life clinging to fairy tale ideas and then being put into the world of the fairy tale idea. And all of it is kind of working against her and everything. Like everyone says to her throughout the movie, you're sort of assuming too much about this world. Like you're taking things for granted. And she's. She say or says a lot throughout, like, oh, this is how it's supposed to go, or how it's supposed to be. Or like a fairy bites her and she's like, that's not how it's supposed to go, you know, and like, I just love the idea of the idea. Just ideas turning against you, I think, is what this movie's about to me.

[Caroline]

Well, that's again, I think it's her again. You wouldn't know this is a 5 year old, but it's the horrible realization that adult life might not be what you thought it was going to be. That, you know, it's time for her to stop seeing things as she wants them to be and start seeing them as they are, which is, I guess, ultimately, you know, in the end, she re embraces her stepbrother because like him or not, he's part of her life. So is her stepmom. And again, the wicked stepmother, as she says herself. She's determined to cast me as the wicked stepmother, whatever I do. So, you know, Sarah is.

[Juna Dawson]

I'd love it if you had a date.

[Caroline]

You should be dating at your age. Homosexual. Can we talk briefly about how beautiful Jennifer Connelly is? The most beautiful then and still the most beautiful woman in the world.

[Juna Dawson]

We just talked about her recently for the he's just not that into you podcast, she remains sensational.

[Caroline]

I mean, she is. She's a Louis Vuitton brand ambassador, and she was at the spring. The autumn winter fashion show in Milan. And she's still. She's now 50. She is so beautiful. Very thin. I hope she's eating all right. But, yeah, she's. And I think quite genuinely one of the most underrated actors of a generation in that she kind of comes and goes. She takes the job she wants to do.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I don't think she's never really achieved that kind of Margot Robbie, Scarlett Johansson, uber fame, but I think she's all right with the level of fame. She's an Oscar winner. She won an Oscar for Beautiful Mind, I believe.

[Juna Dawson]

Did she?

[Caroline]

She certainly nominated.

[Juna Dawson]

Huh. And she was in Requiem for a.

[Caroline]

Dream, which is my other favorite.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes.

[Caroline]

She's as Marian Silver in Requiem for a Dream, in which she is heartbreaking. She has very little dialogue, but her face is heartbreaking.

[Juna Dawson]

Her face is truly heartbreaking. And, like, I just love her. And we all. She just. Who isn't obsessed with Jennifer Connelly in this movie? And the outfits. Oh, the outfit.

[Caroline]

I should say the waistcoat.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. That little Jacquard waistcoat over the shirt.

[Caroline]

Like the brown. The brown brugs.

[Juna Dawson]

No matter how old you are looking at that movie, you're like, can I make that work? Like, can I? Can I?

[Caroline]

Do you know what that came back? That is the mom jean. Maybe not so much the waistcoat, but the blouse and the mom jeans and the shoes you could have gotten away with quite recently.

[Juna Dawson]

Waistcoats are back, but they're kind of more of a fitted waistcoat. It's kind of the loose men's kind of bad wedding waistcoat that I love.

[Caroline]

But it works on her. But, I mean, for me, it was all about the hair. Just that glossy, shiny raven hair. And the brows, which, of course, she became. She stubbornly left them during the 90s when everybody else had little tiny pencil brows. She was like, no, these brows are my money maker. And she kept them brave.

[Juna Dawson]

Mm. She's kind of like. Do you think part of the reason why she's not as much of a household name anymore is that she's sort of this between person of. Like, whenever I see her, I think I'm looking at Demi Moore or at Brooke Shields, and you know what I mean?

[Caroline]

She's real generous.

[Juna Dawson]

Are you her? Are you her? No, you're her.

[Caroline]

It's so funny, isn't it? The prestige brunettes of the 80s.

[Juna Dawson]

It's a thesis statement. Prestige brunettes of the 80s.

[Caroline]

But it was because I think as well, and I've talked about this long and wide, I think during the 80s, the leading lady was allowed to be kind of masculine in that you had Daryl Hannah and Sigourney Weaver, Jamie Lee Curtis. And then end of the 80s, boom, Winona Ryder comes along. And from that point on we've had little baby dolls ever since. And we've never really gone back to the kind of. Like we were talking a while ago, me and my friends were talking about who should play Lara Croft. Like, who would have that stuff, sense of physicality, that she could climb a mountain and not die and not fall over in the age of azempic kind of. And there are so few. There are so few.

[Juna Dawson]

God, you're right, actually. Yeah. Cause you just think of these very Disney looking kind of girl movie stars who are just very dollish looking. You're right. But yeah, the 80s. Where are the Sigourney Weavers now?

[Caroline]

There isn't a Sigourney Weaver now. I don't think there is.

[Juna Dawson]

Tell me, what was the most important part of this movie for you when you were a kid? Like, how did you access this movie in a world pre kind of on demand streaming? Did you own it? How did you get to it? And when you were getting. When you went back to it, what were you looking for?

[Caroline]

I had it taped off the telly on a VHS tape that was watched and watched and watched to death. I think initially we used to borrow the VHS off someone because I used to love it so much. I think. I think there wasn't much in that space that was female led. And as a small trans child, I only was interested in stories about girls. Like, I really wasn't interested in things about boys. And a lot in that space, if there was a girl, she was often the damsel in distress. She was the kind of the Princess Peach kind of figure.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And so I really loved that Sarah was the main character and that she had real agency, you know, she was a woman on a mission. I've got to save my brother. I've brought this on myself. And she's resourceful. Ish.

[Juna Dawson]

Ish.

[Caroline]

I mean, Hoggle does often just rescue her from things, but for me it was about. Yeah, I could see myself in Sarah. And that was really important to me as a girl that everybody thought was a boy kind of.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. Like the journey she goes on is so interesting to me because it's like when she at the beginning, when she's asked to babysit, it's like, ew, no, absolutely not. How dare you? When someone, like, insinuates that she should go on a date, it's like, ew, no, how dare you? Which are very kind of like female coded, sort of like, these are the things that are expected of you. I was talking to a friend the other day who said that she was babysitting her baby brother when she was 12. And she's like, I often wonder, if I was a 12 year old boy, would they have let me alone? My baby brother?

[Caroline]

No way.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, right. Like, it's just this presumed thing that girls look after babies and they go on dates and she rejects these two things within the first sort of five minutes of screen time. And then she's asked to go on an adventure to save her baby brother. And like, oh, instantly, yeah, absolutely, 100%. And she's in this adventure world pretty quickly and she's making choices and sort of striding forward pretty quickly.

[Caroline]

Really gets on with it as well.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, really gets on with it.

[Caroline]

I watch it as an adult now. If this film were being made, it would be at least an hour long and a lot of it would be setting up Sarah's miserable home life. And I don't think he'd get to the labyrinth in the first 20 minutes. Whereas I think she enters the labyrinth in about the 12th minute, I think.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, yeah. It's really, really quick. I think I remember thinking as well. I think it's probably because you and I are doing so much screenwriting at the moment. We really have that producer notes thing in our head of like, but what does Sarah want?

[Caroline]

Why now? Why now?

[Juna Dawson]

Why the story and why now?

[Caroline]

Sorry, I just had brief. I was briefly triggered about what work I should probably be doing. Sorry.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, no, but then, so she's walking around the labyrinth, she sort of, you know, and it's, you know, very evident from very early on that it's like playing tricks on her and that this is not a game that's going to play fair with her, which is like.

[Caroline]

The little caterpillar, the little worm.

[Juna Dawson]

The worm.

[Caroline]

We should have just enough power on the worm. Hello. Hello. Outside, meet the missus.

[Juna Dawson]

Come in for a cup of tea.

[Caroline]

Can you imagine if she'd gone that way? She'd have gone straight to the goblin castle.

[Juna Dawson]

It's so important that the first, like, person she meets is the worm with a scarf. The worm is wearing a scarf.

[Caroline]

It is a naked worm, but is wearing a scarf. The little eyes on Storks used to freak me out, though, on the moss. The moss that has eyes used to.

[Juna Dawson]

Really freak me out. Yeah. I'm sorry. I just can't move on from that worm because I love him so much. And I only just recently found out today that the worm is gendered male, which is very upsetting to me because if my mother in law, if she's listening, that's my mother in law.

[Caroline]

Oh, is she blue?

[Juna Dawson]

She's got like a little purple hair and she sort of talks like that and she's like, come here for a cup of tea.

[Caroline]

Yeah, come inside, meet the missus.

[Juna Dawson]

But I love as well that, like, the worm is nice. Yeah, the worm is nice, but the worm is tricky.

[Caroline]

Well, the worm doesn't know she's trying to get to the Goblin castle.

[Juna Dawson]

I think the worm's a little dick.

[Caroline]

Do you think? No, I think the worm is really helpful because if the worm was a dick, he would have just told her to keep on going down the straight, never turning.

[Juna Dawson]

That's true.

[Caroline]

So I think he really was trying to help her, but was trying to spare her from Jareth.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes. No, that's fair enough. I'll give the worm some quarterfall benefit of the worm.

[Caroline]

Thank you. I will not hear slander against worm.

[Juna Dawson]

Against nameless worm. I remember hearing some, possibly some American podcasters when I was researching this refer to her because every kind of creature that Sarah meets is British. That everyone has a kind of a very Monty Python sort of Terry Jones, because Terry Jones did write this movie. So the kind of Monty Python DNA feels very common. It's very Monty Python, the Holy Grail, kind of coded. But like, everyone kind of. You've got that sort of Monty Python kind of. Yes, well. And it's like, really? This is a journey about an American girl going to England where the people are kind, but they're not nice.

[Caroline]

Filmed in Pinewood Studios. Yeah. Poor Jennifer Connelly was literally flown to London where she was interacting with nearly all English actors. Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

And it's that real thing where people are just like, these creatures are rude to her, but they are kind of helpful. They're not like, outwardly mean.

[Caroline]

Some of them are scary. The fireies who want to pull her head off. Although again, they don't understand that some people's heads don't come off. They're like, what do you mean?

[Juna Dawson]

There's a cultural difference.

[Caroline]

Of course it doesn't. Sarah says, which is. I say that all the time to my friends. Of course it doesn't. One of those fireys is Danny, Jules, John, the cat from Red Dwarf.

[Juna Dawson]

And something I learned as well today is that her baby brother Toby. Do you know this already?

[Caroline]

Go on.

[Juna Dawson]

So, okay, the baby brother Toby is played by Toby Frude, and his father is Brian Frude, who is responsible for those kind of fairy tale illustrations that all this is based on, the concept work. But, like, those. Those kind of fairy. The Dark Crystal fairies, all that kind of stuff. It's all Brian Fruit. So he's kind of the art director of all this. And I'm gonna.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. It's literally a Nepa baby.

[Juna Dawson]

It really, quite literally. But then Hoggle is Brian Henson, right? Or, like, our Brian Henson is one of the roles anyway. So, like, whenever I'm kind of researching the Disney parks as well, and, like, all the animators, it's kind of amazing, like, how these are kind of family circuses, these businesses. And like, how that's what. That's something that's very fascinating to me about the Henson thing in general. Because if you. I'm sure you've watched documentaries on Jim Henson, because there's a load of them, and they're all very comforting. But I'm always struck by, like, how there are layers of protection around the Henson sort of lore and the Henson estate, because not only is everything Jim Henson made owned by Disney, but it's also owned by his family, who are all in the business. So you can often see yourself watching a documentary of being Henson and being like, well, where's the truth, really? Because there's a lot of, like, and we're moving on moments. Like the fact that Mrs. Henson, his wife, was the original puppeteer and was sort of phased out of the business really early on. And I find the kind of Henson world a kind of labyrinth of itself of, like, kind of mysteries and, like, hang on, we're moving on. And, like, don't go. That road goes straight to the castle. You know what I mean?

[Caroline]

Don't turn that way. Not that way.

[Juna Dawson]

So I do sort of think a lot like, mm, Jim Henson obviously was the imagineer to end all imagineers. But is there more to the story that we're not hearing?

[Caroline]

Everybody in Hollywood can be quite difficult, I think it'd be safe to say. But I think they're right to be very, very protective. I think the fact that the Henson family have protected Kermit and Piggy and their creations is really important. Cause otherwise, we'd have ended up with a right load of old shit all over. Just diminishing returns from people who have Sold the rights. Like, I mean, look at what's happened to Winnie the Pooh, for example. It's just, Yeah, a lot of just naff bedding and stuff.

[Juna Dawson]

You are, you are right. And like, the, the kind of integrity around the characters is so interesting. Like, I, I spoke to someone who interviewed Kermit the Frog for a podcast once.

[Caroline]

Nice. The real Kermit. I will not hear that. He's not real.

[Juna Dawson]

The real Kermit. Exactly. The real Kermit. So it was Helena Hara who does the Empire podcast. And she was like, she was so excited all day that she was going to interview Kermit the Frog. And then the actor who.

[Caroline]

I know.

[Juna Dawson]

Sacrilege. Kids, turn off the microphone. The actor who plays Kermit came in and he was like, listen, I've had a really long day of press. Do you mind if I just sit Kermit up on the table and I'll just talk to you and I won't like, animate Kermit. And she was like, that's fine.

[Caroline]

I would have been so upset.

[Juna Dawson]

I know. I'm like, yeah, of course. Yeah. It's very physically demanding for you to uprigg Kermit, but also, how hard can it be?

[Caroline]

That was me. If you can't see this, I was literally doing. Making a little Kermit face with my hand.

[Juna Dawson]

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[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, I love the. I don't know, I just. I just fucking love puppets. Yeah, I love how many of them.

[Caroline]

Everybody loves a puppet.

[Juna Dawson]

Everybody loves puppets. And just even that kind of. When she. When she solves the riddle of the.

[Caroline]

Two doors, which I still haven't quite wrapped my head around. And I've had it explained to me so, so many times.

[Juna Dawson]

I like that. Like, we're at a place where we can admit that we. We're glad that she solves the riddle, but that we ourselves could not solve the riddle.

[Caroline]

A group of friends once explained it to me at university when we were having just like a night in and watch Labyrinth. And for about three minutes I got it. And then when I woke up the next morning, it had gone again.

[Juna Dawson]

You need to be a little stoned, I think, to get it, probably.

[Caroline]

That would probably help.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But no, she's right. My husband recently again ran me through it and he understood.

[Juna Dawson]

Okay.

[Caroline]

And again, for a minute, I was like, oh, yeah, I see, it's gone.

[Juna Dawson]

Don't you ever feel like I'm very sort of unsporty and uncoordinated? And so in the role of a fantasy story, I should be the person who can therefore solve a riddle. And the fact that I can't be sporty or solve a riddle is so upsetting to me.

[Caroline]

It really is. But then I don't understand, because if she picked the right door, then why does she fall down the hole with the helping hands?

[Juna Dawson]

Because one leads to certain death and one leads to something else. So I think she wouldn't.

[Caroline]

One lead to certain death. Yeah. Ba, ba, ba.

[Juna Dawson]

Just being groped several hundred times while you fall down.

[Caroline]

Did she say down? See, they're really freaky as well. The helping hands are really free.

[Juna Dawson]

But it's such a fucking amazing sequence. And it is kind of this reminder that, like, oh, yeah, puppetry is just hands.

[Caroline]

Have you ever seen how they did it? Have you ever seen how they did it?

[Juna Dawson]

No.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. It's incredible. I've seen pictures. She was on a harness, obviously, and they sort of moved her down a very high vertical tunnel, a bit like the wall from Gladiators, where they had dozens of actors putting their hands through. And then, yeah, they could just hoist her up and down this wall of hands, basically.

[Juna Dawson]

It's so fucking cool just watching those little faces, the shapes of the hands and everything, and just the eye. Oh, God.

[Caroline]

We're the helping hands.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Oh, so good.

[Juna Dawson]

The fact that you can. Like, there are sort of four sets of hands who are like, you know, characters talking to her during that sequence. And they feel very distinctive personalities, even though there's no fake eyebrows on them or anything. It's just fingers.

[Caroline]

So clever.

[Juna Dawson]

So clever and so scary.

[Caroline]

Why? When this film came out, I think it's really important to say it was absolutely savaged critically and also commercially.

[Juna Dawson]

It still only has about a 50% on rotten tomatoes.

[Caroline]

What the fuck do people want from a fantasy film? We have talking hands. We have a statue from Yorkshire who says, oh, go on. It's been so long since I've said it. What more do you want? Like what Gubb that you want to see on Netflix? Cause I want to see more of that.

[Juna Dawson]

Like it really makes you so angry at 80s audiences being like you were so spoiled, you didn't know what you had. Right.

[Caroline]

Like, I mean, granted. So it was up against a lot of other stuff. It was up against the Conans and Dark Crystals and Star Wars. Return of the Jedi had only come out two years before Labyrinth, kind of. So I suppose, yeah, it had a lot of sort of fantasy competition. And I think also at the time it is not what anybody wanted David Bowie to be doing. So I honestly think the film was punished a little bit for David Bowie not being what they needed him to be. Kind of. I think it was deemed that the ones the coolest man in rock and roll was now doing kids films in a codpiece. Yeah. And we've got to slam this back down. Like, how dare he do something different? Kind of.

[Juna Dawson]

So tell me about. Let's just park ourselves in David Bowie for a second. Cause we've talked about the hands now.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I think so. It's tricky. So I did and I did. Specifically ahead of coming in today, I looked up the various allegations that he did sleep with minors. And it seems really likely that during his heyday, bowie in his 30s and 40s was sleeping with girls who were very young, are in fact children. And the one who's written about it a lot is Laurie Maddox. And now your DMs are gonna be full of people defending Bowie and saying that Laurie Maddox made it all up. And she's delusional because of course that's what hardcore David Bowie fans say.

[Juna Dawson]

People are very insistent about preserving a very specific narrative about him.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And I think if he was still here now to live through MeToo, I think he would possibly say, look, I was so out of it, I was not checking anybody's passport. Look at it that way. And I think the lingering sense of it is two middle aged men listening. Don't fuck teenage girls. A really good way to protect yourself from accidental pedophilia. Is to just not fuck teenage girls. Date within your own bracket. But then similarly, Bowie nixed a kiss between Jareth and Sarah, if we believe the legend. And I think Jennifer Connelly has confirmed that as well. That he knew it was, you know, I think at the time Connelly was 16 and he was 37 and they. Yeah, they cut a scripted kiss.

[Juna Dawson]

Really interesting.

[Caroline]

Thank God. Thank God.

[Juna Dawson]

I think there is something. Obviously there's all that kind of shadow on it which makes it that bit more uncomfortable. But I also think that you. You see a lot of reviews of this movie online, like very good comedy reviews or whatever about, like look at the. The copies and it's so inappropriate and that kind of thing. Which, which is. Which to which I say it is supposed to be inappropriate. It is supposed to be weird. It's supposed to make you uncomfortable because it's supposed to be reflective of like so much about. Yes, it's a story about growing up and coming of age, but I think it's very specifically as well as that thing with girls of like, you are expected to go from dolls to boys in this sort of rudderless transition. And about this in between period where you romanticize romance but you're not ready for what romance means kind of thing. And Bowie sort of like summing up and he is perfect casting because he is everything that a teenage girl would have fantasized about at that time, especially if she's kind of alternative and into sort of other stories about the world and how scary that is. And like his dick is supposed to be scary, right?

[Caroline]

100%. And I think that's it. She is terrified of him because she's terrified of becoming a woman. And I think that's what he represents. And also remember, it was filmed in 1985. This is what people looked like somewhat. Men were wearing makeup. Granted, they probably didn't do upside down.

[Juna Dawson]

Eyebrows, but yeah, I just like, I would. I'm very curious as to whether we are able to tell stories about teenage desire for grown men, which is. Which are real, sticky, problematic, More. More than these girls can either legally or mentally handle and yet real and needs. And like, I feel like when we deal with these stories, it's told through the lens of the inappropriate male desire for the young woman and rarely through the reverse. The reverse desire, which is kind of confusing and hot and cold.

[Caroline]

And my first crush, my first experience of what libido feels like as a bodied experience was for a teacher, a male teacher. And I suspect that's probably a very, very common occurrence now. We all like to hope that with teachers being professionals that it's almost. It's a way for you to role play what libido feels like in quite a safe space. And I think that's what a character in a book or a film can be really good for. All why so many teenage girls develop very real feelings about pop stars. You know, I was not the right generation for One Direction, but those kids who were in love with a member of One Direction, I got it because this is the prototype, this feeling, this obsession, this crush is gonna be foundational, the blueprint for the rest, hopefully of your love life. And then you. You enjoy the fantasy of it. And then when you're older, you, you enjoy the reality of it, which is very different.

[Juna Dawson]

It's always fascinating to me whenever you get these kind of quote unquote Lolita cases or whatever, like where, you know, some man has a relationship with an underage girl and the defense that is used is that she either seemed older or that she wanted it or that she pursued him or whatever. And then the counter to that argument is like, she's a child. How could she want him? And it's like, no, the argument isn't whether or not a child is capable of wanting an adult. A child is capable of wanting an adult. They are just not capable of knowing what that means.

[Caroline]

Yep. And that's why we have an age of consent, and that's why we age of consent, because we have decided that there is an age at which we can trust a young person to make decisions about their love life. And the difficulty is if you have one. And why those rules change. For if both parties are underage or if one party is over the age of consent, we have different laws about that. And that is because in that situation, we experience. Expect the adult man to recognize the legal situation in a way that you can't expect a 14 year old girl to recognize the legal situation because she's a child, whereas you were relying on the adult to recognize. Hang on. We live in a country with laws, so it kind of doesn't matter what you feel. Sometimes I might want to murder people, but do you know why I don't? Because of the laws.

[Juna Dawson]

It's kind of crazy to me, though. I do feel like, I know we probably sound like Captain Obvious to listeners, but like, like these are like rhetorics that come up again and again and.

[Caroline]

Again all the fucking time.

[Juna Dawson]

And that sort of thing of like a child's inability to know what a man is actually like is the root of that Kind of thing, you know, it is a deeply psychological understanding that we have in that law. It seems basic, but it is layered and like fascinating, but also in stone. You know, the law. But I really want to talk about what their relationship is in this movie and how it's sort of presented to us and how it changes because it's like, okay, he takes her brother away from her at her wishes. We are kind of unclear as to what Jareth even wants with her brother.

[Caroline]

Oh, I don't think he wants to be at all. Although he says that you'll make a very good goblin prince. I think.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes. He wants to turn him into a goblin after a set amount of time.

[Caroline]

Do you think all the little goblins are previous siblings that have been stolen?

[Juna Dawson]

See, I would love a bit of that.

[Caroline]

That's so dark though, isn't it? Yeah, just like a thousand babysitters who failed.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, that's really good. It's very Princess Mombi in Return to Oz.

[Caroline]

Yeah, the head. Oh, you'll be lovely one day. Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

Love that fucking movie. Oh, it's so good. That's another sort of 80s dark fantasy.

[Caroline]

Gem which also flopped at the time.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

But has really stood the test of time. Fucking bracelets with an egg. An early warning about egg intolerance. I'm egg white intolerant. So I needed that message. That was the message I needed when I needed it.

[Juna Dawson]

Turned to Oz taught you about egg.

[Caroline]

White intolerance or I'm the Gnarm King again. Everybody killing the goblins and gnomes.

[Juna Dawson]

Poor goblins. So sorry to go back to Jareth.

[Caroline]

Oh yeah, Jareth.

[Juna Dawson]

So it's kind of quite obvious that like Toby is a device really. But it's like, okay, he wants. Sarah's trying to get through the labyrinth in order to get her baby back, her baby brother back. Jareth is trying to prevent her from doing so, but he also wants to be with her.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

So like what do you think that's about? It's like a really interesting. It feels very allegorical and odd.

[Caroline]

I wonder if there was a script where he offered her a trade, like if you stay, I'll let her be go or something. But then they had to presumably everybody involved. Although again, we have very different sort of rules around sort of safeguarding. There's no way a film like Labyrinth could not get made now. Or if you did, Jareth would have to be so much closer in age to Sarah for it to fly. There is no way you'd have a 16 year old girl and 37 year old man. It just wouldn't happen.

[Juna Dawson]

Right.

[Caroline]

But at the time in the 80s, though, so it's a children's film. We have music, we've got little goblins, we have lovely monsters. But then we know that Jim Henson was aware of the allegory of, you know, her being on the cusp of womanhood. Or maybe it was the director who said it. It was one of them. So they were aware that this was a film about a young woman leaving childhood behind. But they must have also known there's a line. There's only so much. If Jareth can't represent her burgeoning sex drive, at least not on the page, like a generation of viewers have interpreted, that Jareth is meant to be her sexual awakening. And I think Jareth was a sexual awakening for a lot of people. But I think there's something about him turning into an owl and the costume and Bowie's performance where I wonder if he just represents the great unknown that.

[Juna Dawson]

You know.

[Caroline]

She has to move towards. And then, obviously, much is made of her devastating final line. You have no power over me. So does he represent her mental illness? Does he represent her fear of adulthood? So in the end, she renounces fear, like, you have no power over me.

[Juna Dawson]

Well, how do you interpret the sort of the ballroom scene and the she's going through with her friends Hoggle, Ludo.

[Caroline]

And the little night guy, Saddidymus. Saddidymusidimus. That's his name, isn't it? Saddidymus. Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

And Hoggle has been told to give her this, like, enchanted poisoned peach thing with Margaret saying. And she takes it and she sort of passes out and trips balls.

[Caroline]

Trips balls. Literally trips balls.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes. The balls are sent out. The crystal balls are sent out from J, which is still my favorite gif on the Internet. Just sending out, sending out the little crystal balls. And she's, you know, in this ballroom where, you know, it's all very so good, you know, my wedding. My wedding.

[Caroline]

My wedding dress was based on that dress.

[Juna Dawson]

No way.

[Caroline]

Literally. That was the reference I gave to the designer.

[Juna Dawson]

God, she looks so fucking beautiful.

[Caroline]

And Jennifer Connelly has seen the video of my first dance because we have a mutual.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

What's your take on it, man?

[Caroline]

Well, like Princess Leia in the gold bikini, this is the scene where she becomes a woman. Like, she's basically in a wedding dress or something that could very easily be turned into a wedding dress. She's in full glam, more hair extensions than anybody has ever had. In just how is she lifting her.

[Juna Dawson]

Neck with that amount of hair on?

[Caroline]

Just stunning. And while she still has a sense of childlike wonder, you know, she's at a masquerade ball, everyone is mocking her. It's very hard to interpret that scene as anything else other than him trying to make her fall in love with him. He's trying to bewitch her, I think.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they dance. They do dance.

[Juna Dawson]

And then there's this immediate thing. She's in it. And so it is kind of like the most memorable. Like, it's so strange in a movie that is so chock full of, like, visual memorable moments with puppetry and hands and props and everything. Really the bit that sort of feels like the centerpiece in the heart of the film is this odd ballroom scene where there are no puppets really present at all, you know? And then we go straight from that into this really haunting bit with the junk people, or what are they called?

[Caroline]

Yes, the Junk woman.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, the junk woman. And she's just kind of walking around, humbling around with all this stuff in her back. And like, here, you.

[Caroline]

You remember Teddy. What was the Teddy bear?

[Juna Dawson]

Lancelot.

[Caroline]

Oh, yeah, the little bear you remember there. Paint yourself nice, make yourself pretty. And the slippers. Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

Oh, can't leave those behind. And there's something. It's just. It's incredibly, like, literal. Right. It's like these kind of being these two unfair choices, which is like, well, you can't go back because that's regression and you can't go back to being a child again. And as much as you're gonna try and cling onto these things of your youth, you can't. And you just be one of these people who fucking walk around with their trash the rest of their life, which these people do exist.

[Caroline]

Some adults. I've just done a little trip to Disneyland Paris.

[Juna Dawson]

Oh.

[Caroline]

And there is such a thing as a Disney adult somebody.

[Juna Dawson]

Because we just covered them for the podcast.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Amazing. Yeah, I was one of them a few weeks back.

[Juna Dawson]

I was one of them quite recently. Great holiday to take into being a Disney adult for a while.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I lived it for three days. But I'm glad to have left it just outside Paris because. Yeah, you have to. Yeah. But you're right. Sarah is given two choices. You can either become a wife or you can stay in your room with all your toys. If only there were a third way.

[Juna Dawson]

And that's kind of the. Yeah. The two options that the labyrinth presents to her is that, like, well, both suck. Like, both are Scary. Like one is sort of like redundant and small and kind of claustrophobic and the other is too open and free and sexual and scary.

[Caroline]

Cause when, what is it Jareth says at the end? He's like, give yourself to me and I will be your slave. Kind of. But there is still this notion that she has to give herself to him. You know, she has to submit. Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

So that to me, that whole speech is crazy. So they kind of, they storm the castle in like. I will say that scene is very fucking long.

[Caroline]

Yes, it really is. Actually, that's the bit that didn't quite work for me as a kid as well.

[Juna Dawson]

When I was rewatching it this morning. I was like making some tea and some toast or whatever. I was like, is this bit still on?

[Caroline]

Still running through this very small set?

[Juna Dawson]

Very small.

[Caroline]

Just Jennifer Connelly running up and down the same little few stairs several, many times.

[Juna Dawson]

And then she kind of has this moment of like I have to go in alone because that's the way things are done and the kind of showdown. And then she's going up and down the Escher print.

[Caroline]

The Escher print, yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

Which I think like is. It really brought me back. I'm more of a 90s kid. But something very tweeted me about like how, you know, Magic Eye books and maze books and like all those things like optical illusions on paper were such a thing and like, oh, that's never coming back, is it?

[Caroline]

No. Probably seems unlikely. I think tried to bring up Magic Eye pictures a couple of years ago and it really didn't work really hard.

[Juna Dawson]

To sell an 8 year old today on a Magic Eye painting.

[Caroline]

Now you've just got to look at it. Why, what happens? Well, you'll see a dolphin. Sure thing, Mom. I'm in an incel chat room right now. Bye. Times have changed. It was a simpler time. More innocent time.

[Juna Dawson]

More innocent time when you could just look at a picture for long enough and a ship would arrive.

[Caroline]

You might see a butterfly.

[Juna Dawson]

And so then they have their final confrontation. And I'm so struck by that whole thing of like, I'll. He's like, I, I, I. I've done everything for you. I've bent time, I've done it, you know, whatever you, you wanted to be. You wanted me to be fearful and you cowered and you were afraid and.

[Caroline]

You were afraid and you were afraid.

[Juna Dawson]

It's. I'm sorry. That is fucking hot. The whole thing is hot. Someone like, someone sort of oddly gender bendy, sort of presenting a kind of a sexual trap. Like, it's fucking fit.

[Caroline]

So I wanted to pitch for Labyrinth 2 a few years back, although it was already well underway. And I did see there was a world that had Jarred Leto as new Jareth. And it kind of would have been the same thing. Although apparently he's also my. There's rumblings about him and young fans as well, but. And I didn't realize he's in his 50s as well, so. Actually, no, not okay. But it's. Yeah, there's always a, like, the acceptable alternative that men think are cool and women think are hot. There's always one. Maybe it's Benson Boone at the moment or something. I don't know. But there's always one.

[Juna Dawson]

I guess what confuses me and what interests me is the idea that, yes, he's created all these, like, puzzles and obstacles for her, but on some level, it was because she wanted him to. It's like you wanted me to be afraid. You want to be afraid of me. I've provided this villain narrative for you because you need it, you know?

[Caroline]

But then in the end, she doesn't, because he has no power over her. And it's about. I think, yes, she has to choose between childhood and adulthood. And in a way, maybe Jareth is trying to trap her there forever. Maybe this is the thing. If she was to stay in the Goblin Castle. Cause he does say, stay with me, doesn't he?

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she can't. But then what's really nice is all the good things from her childhood. Then say, if you ever need us. Yeah, if you ever need us, Sarah. And they're there so you can have. And it's always there. And I think that's why, you know, like some sort of mad Gerry Halliwell, I'm always saying, you know, think about your inner child. You know, kind of like, at the moment, I've really gone hard with collecting my little ponies. Cause I've just got this new office. And so I've got all these little ponies running around the shelf. And that is for the inner child who was told that I wasn't allowed ponies because I was trans. And so it's night. Like, Sarah, do it. Enjoy watching Mean Girls for the millionth time. Yes. Have Angel Delight. I have Angel Delight about once a year. And remember, it's not very good. But, you know, you've got to sometimes feed the past you who liked all those things. And I think that's why when all the little monsters pop out in her bedroom at the end and she has a party with them, it's because she has found she didn't need to choose. She can become a grown up while also celebrating the things from her childhood that made her who she is.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Aw. What a lovely film.

[Juna Dawson]

What a lovely film.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And outside, Jareth watches.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, yeah. As an owl. And then flies on to steal another baby.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

I do love the idea that all the goblins are stolen babies. That would be a note from me.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

Is there any bits of the movie that we haven't spoken about that you're obsessed with?

[Caroline]

Ludo is lovely.

[Juna Dawson]

Poor Ludo.

[Caroline]

And again, the idea that things that look scary are actually really lovely.

[Juna Dawson]

Have you seen that bit of footage with Diana and Charles meeting Ludo? Yes.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, I love that. I come from Bradford, where there is a. I think it's called the National Media Museum now, but when I was a child, it was the National Museum for Film and Photography. And they had a really long running exhibition about how the labyrinth was made. Including at the time, the scene with the fireys with the color screen overlay was really quite new. And watching how the puppeteers danced around with all the. There was so many of them. Cause obviously somebody had to be an arm and somebody had to be a leg and somebody was being a head kind of doing this. And so, yeah, watching. I mean, obviously that is like seeing slightly how the sausage gets made. But as a child it was really fascinating and to see. Cause Ludo is one man, one very uncomfortable man inside a costume, sort of wearing a huge sort of fiberglass frame. And it is. It is amazing.

[Juna Dawson]

Those fieries make me so uncomfortable. Like for everything else in the movie. I'm like, God, this is such an incredible thing and the artistry and whatever, but the fire reason. Just like vomit. Put it away.

[Caroline]

It does look. I mean, it does look crap now, I think.

[Juna Dawson]

Not that it looks crap, just that it scares me.

[Caroline]

It's difficult, isn't it? It would be really cool to have like a special edition where they just clean up those little bits. I'm not saying that I don't want them to do like what they did in the 90s with the star wars films where they put loads of shit cartoon characters over the top of everything. But it would be nice to get a version where the fireys didn't look quite so obviously added.

[Juna Dawson]

Well, we haven't talked very much about the Bog of Eternal Stench.

[Caroline]

Bog of Eternal Stench, which is the bit where my stepmom turned off because she just doesn't like fart humor.

[Juna Dawson]

There's something very I mean, it's very physical.

[Caroline]

It really do feel.

[Juna Dawson]

You really do feel like you're looking.

[Caroline]

Smell o vision.

[Juna Dawson]

Like rectums in the water. Like, it's like they're too flappy. I feel like I'm looking at, like, a water bum hole.

[Caroline]

You know what I mean?

[Juna Dawson]

It's like. It's like I am. I would have found this so funny as a kid, but it makes me physically uncomfortable.

[Caroline]

You know what I would really love? If someone is listening and just has a spare couple of million quid lying around. Like an immersive labyrinth experience. I bet there has been one somewhere, because they've done Crystal Maze.

[Juna Dawson]

If you.

[Caroline]

Come on. If you've done Crystal Maze, I want a labyrinth, like experience where you can see the cleaners and the Bog of Eternal Stench and that little funny man with the, like, goose on his head.

[Juna Dawson]

I love the man with a goose on his head goose.

[Caroline]

That being his head. Just so. Stimulating me in your head. Stimulating me in your head with a little change box.

[Juna Dawson]

I look in love with that.

[Caroline]

That's so good. Hoggle, I'm afraid, is not my favorite. I just find a Hoggle quite irritating.

[Juna Dawson]

And he sucks.

[Caroline]

Yeah, he kind of ashamed. He truly sucks.

[Juna Dawson]

Like, he betrays her again and again.

[Caroline]

She's not toxic masculinity with Hoggle.

[Juna Dawson]

She keeps trusting him and she keeps just like, nope, sorry, I told you, I am a coward.

[Caroline]

But she does see in him. She sees to the truth of his character, that actually he does want to help and he is good at his car. And he does, in the end, he throws himself on the big robot thing.

[Juna Dawson]

There's something a bit like male wish fulfillment character about Hoggle. You know, that sort of BoJack Horsemanism of being like, I don't think there's such thing as deep down. I think it's just what you do and who you are. It's like, Hoggle, there's no such thing as you being good deep down. You just suck.

[Caroline]

But he does tell her he's horrible. To be fair, he kind of doesn't mislead her.

[Juna Dawson]

He is the BoJack Horseman of the Year.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

But she has lovely hair.

[Caroline]

I think Hoggle loves her a little bit as well.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because Jareth just say, if she ever kisses you, Hoggle, I'll make you a prince. The prince of a Bog of Eternal Stench. Which is then what happens when she does kiss him. Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

Well, what do you think about the sort of, like, the wizard of Oz parallels here? Like, are they, like, for, like, in that you know, girl goes on a journey and finds three friends along the way. Like, who are there.

[Caroline]

Like, I think so, yeah. I think you forget sort of how foundational wizard of Oz was. But then, obviously, that came from a very old book, didn't it? So.

[Juna Dawson]

But it's also the thing of, like. It's like the kind of the Jareth thing makes a bit more sense because it's like she has the confrontation with Jareth and is like, oh, I realize that you kind of are not. You have no power over me. You have no power at all.

[Caroline]

You're not what I want. I think I kind of thought I wanted you, but actually, I don't.

[Juna Dawson]

Turns out I can solve my own problems.

[Caroline]

Whereas the Wicked Witch, her motivation is so unclear that we have a whole prequel series where people have filled the gaps about the Wicked Witch of the West. So. Whereas Jareth is more thought out.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. Jareth is both the Wicked Witch and the wizard at the same time, which is, like, an interesting duality.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And Dorothy is sexless as well. She's certainly not interested in the wizard for anything other than his ability to get her home.

[Juna Dawson]

It is amazing to me how, like, the wizard of Oz as a movie just kind of comes apart in the last third. Like, if you've watched it again. I watched it again recently after Wicked, obviously.

[Caroline]

So I'm about to watch it for my queen, Queer. My queen, My queer film night that I do once a month in Hove. It's called Is It Queer, though? Where we look at a film that is beloved by LGBTQ people and ask, but in what way is it queer? Why has it become such a queer favourite? And so we've done films like Showgirls, the Craft, Whatever happened to Baby Jane? Especially the next one out is the wizard of Oz, so it'll be interesting to see, especially on the back of Wicked, which is, like, some people are really obsessed with Wicked.

[Juna Dawson]

Like, really obsessed with Wicked. Have you ever done a movie for. For that where it's like, you truly couldn't come up with an answer? Being, like, this is such a queer staple and yet what is queer about it? Or, like, what is the one that.

[Caroline]

We deemed to be not queer? Was Death becomes her.

[Juna Dawson]

Okay.

[Caroline]

Where we realized, actually, it's about two women fighting over a very weak man. Both of them have the only aim of being married to the shit man or being eternally young and beautiful. And so beyond it being very, very camp, we, as a group of film fans, I think there's usually about 40 of us. We couldn't Find anything inherently queer about death becomes her. Huh.

[Juna Dawson]

Interesting. Yeah. Cause they're not, like, throwing off any narrative, are they? They're very much like grabbing the patriarchy by both hands and kissing it. Yeah, Yeah.

[Caroline]

I mean, the two female characters end up together in the end, but it's still quite an antagonistic. And it's not by choice.

[Juna Dawson]

It's just outsized and camp. But it's not queer, really.

[Caroline]

Well, that's what we've realized all these films have in common. They're incredibly camp, but we have to be able to sort of separate what is camp from what is queer, usually where we have been generous. And so we decided there is something quite inherently queer about the craft in that it's about these girls finding something within girls that boys cannot provide. Cause the boys in the film are also terrible, kind of. And so we realize actually there is something quite queer for a teenage girl about realizing that your destiny lies with other women, not with boys, kind of. And a lot of the films do have an element of found family, so that is often the way to it. If we were to do Labyrinth again, I'm not sure. I think we might struggle to find something inherently queer about it, really. Maybe. I mean, possibly there is something in Sarah's choice that she walks away from what Jareth is offering, which. Which feels quite patriarchal. But I certainly think this is a film that has more to say about womanhood than it does identity. I don't know if Sarah learns much about herself.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, yeah, Interesting. I'm interested in how, like, how many sort of. I know you've written a lot of novels, but how many of them would you class as being fantasy? Or at least three. Right.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So, I mean, when I started with my ya, I started out in sort of like a. Sort of like a teen horror space with elements. There was one about witchcraft, There was about a ghost. But then I didn't go fully, like, fully fledged fantasy until I did Her Majesty's Royal Coven, which I started writing in the Pandemic.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah. I'm interested in how this movie specifically has informed your approach to writing magic.

[Caroline]

I think what I've learned is you have to stick to your own rules, otherwise you can get yourself into trouble. Like, if you have established that your characters can fly, you know, you have to kind of divide. How are they flying? You know, how are they doing it? Kind of. You do need to be mindful of that. I think what I'm always trying to do is sort of create, like I said at the very top, that sort of shared space. Like, I find fantasy worlds, the best ones are the ones which feel like you could move to, like. So I'm a really.

[Juna Dawson]

So well put.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I'm a really big fan of Leigh Barduga, who wrote Shadow and Bone. I think her world is kind of like sort of Tsarist Russian inspired. That feels really like you could go there. And I mean, I know obviously she is evil, but fucking Hogwarts was a really good example of a really well realized fantasy world. Which is why I think so many queer people are absolutely BEREFT now that J.K. rowling is using her voice so dangerously, kind of. And so with Her Majesty's Royal Coven, I wanted to do the same thing. I wanted to do something like the Labyrinth where, you know, the reader could be transported to this secret world where just behind the curtain in Manchester there is a government organisation of witches. Cause it felt. And that's something I like as well, you know, don't get me wrong, I fucking loved Game of Thrones. But I love, love, love. And it's very much more my jam where you have a normal girl or woman because again, I don't want to really tell stories about men where you have a normal girl or woman who finds herself in a heightened reality, whether it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Sarah in Labyrinth. Rose Tyler in Doctor who, you know, these characters, human characters who are swept into a fantasy setting. And I think that's why I don't see myself writing a high fantasy novel. Never say never. But I don't think there's certainly not one on the horizon.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, urban fantasy is an interesting space. Obviously Labyrinth isn't an urban fantasy. It is kind of a high fantasy. But I think what they have in common is that, like. I think a lot of the appeal of urban fantasy, like HMRC is a bit like, oh, the satisfaction of, like, I always knew something was wrong or different or about this world that I live in. Something doesn't add up or make sense. And the answer is, oh, there's this kind of complex web of magic and magical systems that are holding it together that you don't even see. And now you're peeking behind the curtain. That's so delicious.

[Caroline]

It's. Yeah, because you've been letting on the secret, giant secret.

[Juna Dawson]

And then I think what happens in Labyrinth, even though it is in a kind of a very high fantasy world, is the truth that they're getting at here is that, like, the thing about the adult world that Sarah is scared of is that it's contradictory and makes no sense and that all the people she meets in the labyrinth are like, it's full of riddles and sort of trying to trick her, tricking her, lying to her. And that is so much about what adulthood is, is learning how to use your sort of cynicism and judgment. And that's what she learns through the.

[Caroline]

Thing is that like, it isn't fair. As she says many times.

[Juna Dawson]

It's not fair.

[Caroline]

Tralala.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, exactly. And like, I think that has a. That's sort of the, I don't know, the thread that kind of links those two things maybe.

[Caroline]

Oh, it's so good.

[Juna Dawson]

It's so good.

[Caroline]

And how lucky we are to do our job.

[Juna Dawson]

I know.

[Caroline]

How lucky are we to do our job?

[Juna Dawson]

Something I just think a lot about you is that I think you and I have the most similar careers. We have like this. No one is talking about this. We have the same career.

[Caroline]

And do you know what that is? It's because we have worked and worked and worked our butts off and we've hustled on side hustles, side hustles on side hustles.

[Juna Dawson]

So for anyone who isn't keeping score, me and Juno are both fantasy authors, we both are Sex and the City podcasters and we both ride tv. Is there anything else I'm missing? We're both gorgeous, but beautiful.

[Caroline]

Really good. Great laugh, Great value on a panel. Excellent panel value as well.

[Juna Dawson]

Yes. I feel like we've done most of.

[Caroline]

Our interactions panel value, but I just think a slightly. A forward facing, modern kind of author. I think I knew really early on that I could not be Donna Tarr because I would be financially ruined. The notion there was never an option for me to write one book every 10 years. And I don't think we're alone. I think there's people like Catherine Doyle, Katie Weber, Louise o' Neill, authors who are, you know, we're working really, really hard because we've chosen this as a career. We are full time writers, whether or not we're writing content or novels, scripts. And in order to do that, we've said yes. We are writers who have said yes to opportunities that have come our way. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We're multi hyphenates.

[Juna Dawson]

I'm so glad that we're talking about this even though we're running low on time. But like, I'm so curious about this conversation specifically because I feel like it's a little bit of an elephant in the room, right? That like fantasy is like a Protected genre.

[Caroline]

It feels like a lot like we're not doing it right somehow.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah, sort of. Yeah. Like the proper way for us to do this is to sort of of be mysterious and live in Utah or something and you know, and like have this sort of very serious genre book kind of thing that exists in a series of 15 and you don't see us and when you do, it's only at a convention. And sometimes I feel like I love writing fantasy, I love writing magic, I love inventing things, I love engaging with the readership or whatever. But by virtue of also being like a forward facing person, it's like, like, can people's minds only contain so much for you that like, will they be able to believe that you can make up these huge worlds with magical systems if they also know what your dog looks like and your husband looks like and your opinions on Sex in the City? And every time I look at your career I'm like, well, they're believing of Juno, so they'll believe it of me as well.

[Caroline]

I mean, I hope so. I mean, like you said, I do. I also suffer with kind of imposter syndrome that like, again, I should be that person sort of who does just write one book every six years and it's part of a long running series.

[Juna Dawson]

And I'll teach in my spare time and I'll, yeah, I'll lecture or something. I'll make my life smaller and whatever. Yeah.

[Caroline]

So, yeah, I feel. And as well there is potentially the argument I've confused my own brand by dipping my toes into more than one thing. I mean, throwing that, the fact I'm part of a cabaret troupe as well. So, you know, so it is complicated. But I like to think that my readers recognize that they can do that they can contain multitudes as well, that you don't just have to do one thing. And the notion now in 2025 that you would have one job for the rest of your life is quite quaint, I think.

[Juna Dawson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I like being able to do it all, but I mean, I have realized now at my big age that what I love doing and what I'm good at is the writing. And I think actually I'm not looking for any more acting roles. I dipped my toe a little bit and didn't enjoy it. And yeah, I know what it is I want to do and that is I'm happiest when I'm writing. So that's what I'll keep doing. But I think sort of it's interesting watching what people know me for and it's about 50. 50.

[Juna Dawson]

It can be destabilizing, Right. It can really throw you through a loop. It's nice when people know your name, but it's also so, you know, the frustration thing of, like, people aren't running kind of a New York Times sort of obituary folder on you at all times. And they have. Every time you do something, they add it to the kind of the pile of news clippings. It's like, it can be hard to be promoting one thing one year and then something completely different the next year and not expect people to have some kind of whiplash. But then you sort of do feel. I don't know, I feel intellectually insecure about it all the time. And it's really refreshing to talk to people who are in the same boat.

[Caroline]

It's a funny one. And I think. I'll tell you, I think Holly Barnes in a similar situation as well. I think you'll notice all these people we've talked about are women. So it's almost like we're not being Margaret Atwood enough. We're just not being Margaret Atwood. And I wonder if it's. Well, because I'm writing quite a commercial space as well. Although, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm so grateful for when I have won awards and we both wrote ya, which nobody respects YA in children's books at all. So I think we've kind of traveled on the same sort of Dorothy Gale tornado. Because I think I've realized as well that I can't give a shit anymore if people sort of respect my work.

[Juna Dawson]

Kind of.

[Caroline]

As long as people enjoy it. As long as people enjoy it, I don't care.

[Juna Dawson]

Do you know, I'm so glad that we've had this conversation. Bleeding of our sores.

[Caroline]

I feel slightly more sane having had this conversation.

[Juna Dawson]

Me, too, because I feel like. Like a fucking dummy all the time. I feel like a fraud all the time. And, like, it's crazy that you would feel that intensely about, like, making up magical things, but I honestly do sometimes.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Juna Dawson]

But then I have to think about Labyrinth, right? Which is that, like, people wanted Jim Henson to make Sesame street for the rest of his fucking life, and he did so much fucking mental shit. And like. Like, you look at all the. You look at the Dark Crystal, you look at Labyrinth, you look at all these things that he did, you know, in between. Between the Muppets and all these projects, and everyone thought they were fucking mental. They were all panned, and now they all have, like, T shirts, franchises like people making video essays about them 30, 40 years later. And like, I find that artistic bravery so inspiring and like such a lodestar. Do you know what I mean? It's a thing to point myself towards and it really makes me less mad.

[Caroline]

It's that thing. It's that jerk in Friends, isn't it? Which is what is what, what does Rachel say her face film is? And what is her actual favorite film? And it's Weekend at Bernie's. And actually, I hope you know the things that I love, all those films I mentioned, the Craft, Clueless, Labyrinth, Heathers, you know, these are not pieces of high art, but these are things which made me who I am as a writer. I owe as much to Kevin Williamson and Joss Whedon, boo, hiss. As I do. You know, two, you know, the fact that, yeah, I did, you know, study Shakespeare in school and Inspector Coles and those things are hugely influential as well. But, you know, I hope, and I think within genre, within fantasy and horror, you can create things that people really, really love. And I think that's, I'm happy doing that. And if somebody is still talking about something I've written in 40 years time, even if you, if they're sort of saying, oh my God, it looks naff or whatever, or, oh, it's dated, which, yes, we can all agree Labyrinth has dated. But I really hope that, yeah, something will endure in the same way that Labyrinth has.

[Juna Dawson]

Me too. I hope that for us both. Thank you, Gino Dalza.

[Caroline]

Thank you for having me. Anytime.

[Juna Dawson]

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