Magical Garbage: The Lord of The Rings, Ranked

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Magical Garbage: The Lord of The Rings, Ranked"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sentimental Garbage
• Host/Author: Justice for Dumb Women (Caroline O'Donoghue)
• Episode: Magical Garbage: The Lord of The Rings, Ranked
• Release Date: May 8, 2025

---

Introduction to the Miniseries

Timestamp: 00:00 - 02:38

Caroline introduces "Magical Garbage," a miniseries celebrating her upcoming novel, Skip Shock. She emphasizes the shift from physical journeys to imaginative ones, setting the stage for a deep dive into fantasy storytelling.

---

Ranking the Storylines of Lord of the Rings

Number 10: Gondor Timestamp: 25:27 - 32:58

Jen criticizes the Gondor storyline for its patchy storytelling and unresolved plot points, such as the disappearance of their king and Aragorn’s extended stay in Rivendell. Caroline agrees, highlighting the lack of diversity and the monotonous portrayal of Gondor's characters.

Jen: “Gondor basically is a kingdom that lost its king for a long time… No one’s clear on why.”

Number 9: Saruman Timestamp: 33:00 - 35:56

Saruman is ranked next, with both hosts appreciating Peter Jackson's decision to limit his role in the films. They discuss Saruman's managerial incompetence and Christopher Lee's dissatisfaction with his limited screen time.

Caroline: “Denethor… he is the cherry tomato king.”

Number 8: Frodo, Sam, and Gollum Timestamp: 40:45 - 50:08

This trio receives a contentious ranking due to their extensive focus in the narrative. Caroline feels overwhelmed by their constant presence, while Jen appreciates their role in setting the story's pace and exploring deep themes of friendship and burden.

Caroline: “I have to say, like, every time something like very deep… I just can’t take it when anyone’s mean to Sam.”

Number 7: Gandalf Timestamp: 50:12 - 59:57

Gandalf is lauded for his essential role in guiding the Fellowship. The hosts admire his balanced management style, ability to inspire, and moments of sacrifice, such as battling the Balrog.

Jen: “He is spinning so many plates. He’s the only one who’s just like... I will do it.”

Number 6: Arwen Timestamp: 59:58 - 66:59

Arwen's storyline is appreciated for its portrayal of love and sacrifice. However, Caroline expresses reservations about the depth of her character development, while Jen values her as a strong female figure within the narrative.

Caroline: “She has one of my favorite lines in the whole franchise… 'I will go into the west and remain Galadriel.'”

Number 5: Legolas and Gimli Timestamp: 67:07 - 79:12

The dynamic between Legolas and Gimli is celebrated as a charming example of overcoming prejudices and fostering unexpected friendships. Their interactions provide both comic relief and meaningful narrative contributions.

Jen: “The love across the barricades… It is the beginning of that trope.”

Number 4: Éowyn Timestamp: 78:14 - 84:35

Éowyn is highly ranked for her groundbreaking role as a warrior woman who defies societal expectations. Her pivotal moment defeating the Witch-king is highlighted as a significant contribution to female representation in fantasy films.

Jen: “She kills the Witch King of Angmar. That is not nothing.”

Number 3: The Ents Timestamp: 80:20 - 87:01

The Ents are praised for their unique portrayal as sentient trees who play a crucial role in the downfall of Saruman. Their scenes provide a blend of humor and environmental commentary, making them memorable characters.

Caroline: “They are just trees that walk. They go to war. They take down the bad manager.”

Number 2: Merry and Pippin Timestamp: 87:07 - 96:10

Merry and Pippin are celebrated for representing the average individual's unexpected rise to heroism. Their journey embodies themes of friendship, growth, and the impact of seemingly small actions on grand events.

Jen: “They are the eyes into the film… more so than Frodo and Sam.”

Number 1: Rohan Timestamp: 89:08 - 96:10

Rohan tops the list for its compelling portrayal of a kingdom facing abandonment and resurgence. The hosts admire Rohan's transformation from despair to hope, emphasizing the cultural and emotional significance of the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Jen: “Rohan is the story of a people… a story of a kingdom that's had the shittest time.”

Caroline: “The whole thing's so epic, and they are riding to ruin and the new dawn.”

---

Conclusion

Timestamp: 96:10 - End

Caroline and Jen wrap up their discussion, reflecting on the enduring legacy of Lord of the Rings and its impact on fantasy storytelling. They humorously acknowledge running over time but express satisfaction with their comprehensive ranking.

Notable Quotes:

• Jen: “The Fellowship is like the metronome against which everything in Lord of the Rings runs.”
• Caroline: “Fly, you fools. Get out there. Enjoy the sunshine.”

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Jen on Gondor:
   “[25:37] Jen: Gondor basically is a kingdom that lost its king for a long time… No one’s clear on why.”

2. Caroline on Saruman’s Teeth:
   “[14:26] Jen: 'Even sort of like minor characters who are sort of rough or barbarian-ish. It’s like, check the teeth. We don’t like them.'”

3. Gandalf’s Sacrifice:
   “[50:26] Carloline: 'He will be known to all of you as the cherry tomato king.'”

4. Éowyn’s Defiance:
   “[75:02] Jen: 'There's no other way to kill the Witch King except for a woman.’”

5. Rohan’s Resilience:
   “[89:08] Jen: 'Rohan is the story of a people… a story of a kingdom that's had the shittest time.'”

6. The Ents’ Role:
   “[80:35] Jen: 'They would have been so easy to cut out. And yet Peter Jackson went, no, they are important.'”

---

Final Thoughts

"Magical Garbage: The Lord of The Rings, Ranked" offers an insightful and passionate examination of the intricate storylines within the Lord of the Rings saga. Caroline and Jen provide a blend of critical analysis and heartfelt appreciation, making this episode a must-listen for both fans and newcomers seeking a deeper understanding of Tolkien’s epic.

Transcript

[Caroline]

Instacart is on a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pre game rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything else. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first 3 orders. Service fees apply for 3 orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants. Hi everyone. Magical Garbage is a podcast miniseries about fantasy storytelling and the enchanted things that helped make us who we are. I'm doing this miniseries in celebration of my new novel, Skip Shock, which is out on June 5, and it's a story about love and time travel and parallel worlds and the moment in your life when you realize that you can't really be on the fence about things anymore. The you've got to love with your whole heart and fight with your whole heart and on one occasion, violate the rules of a nude bath house with your whole heart. I'm so proud of this book. I think it's so fun and exciting, and I would be so honored and delighted if you could pre order Skipshock from any brick and mortar bookseller of your choice. I'm sure you know this already, but pre orders are so important in the early stages of a book success. So if you're going to buy the book anyway, please think of a pre order as a special favor to me, the girl who's been talking to you from this recording booth for seven years. Okay, on with the show. Hello and welcome to Magical Garbage, the podcast where we celebrate our 100/50th birthday in style. My name is Caroline, and this podcast is neither late nor early. It has arrived exactly when it intends to, and you can boil her, mash her, stick her in a stew. It's Jen County.

[Jen]

Potatoes, potatoes, potatoes. Taters.

[Caroline]

This is such an ambitious, ambitious episode to start this whole little miniseries with, but it's got to be with you because it's May and it's the time. This time last year, we were going on holidays.

[Jen]

We were. We were flying all the way to Italy, and then we were taking a lot of trains. We were doing our own trek to Mount Doom.

[Caroline]

That was our trip to Mount Doom.

[Jen]

Except at the end, no volcano.

[Caroline]

No volcano.

[Jen]

Rosso life.

[Caroline]

Yeah, but, you know, still, it's May again. And for some reason I've established that in the lore of this podcast, May is Miniseries time.

[Jen]

Perfect.

[Caroline]

This miniseries, more exciting in the sense that we're gonna go to some unchartered territory. We truly are this time in our heads. We're staying put. But the journey is happening within our imaginations.

[Jen]

Exactly. Last year, physical. This year, much more.

[Caroline]

Much more cerebral.

[Jen]

Much more cerebral. But, I mean, I've been waiting for this for probably since you started this podcast.

[Caroline]

And you know what? Other people have been waiting for an update in Jen County. Because if you're just tuning in, Jen's just some girl, but, yeah, I am. If you joined us last summer, Jen was. Became someone that, like, every time I run into people now, they're like, how are you? Or even if I don't know them, and they, you know, give their compliments to the podcast and they say, and how is Jen? And I feel like I need to put the how is Jen? People at rest.

[Jen]

I'm really worried now that I feel like, did I seem a lot. A lot worse than I was? Yeah, I'm fine. I'm good. You know, I'm a good. I'm good.

[Caroline]

I'm happy. I'm a good girl.

[Jen]

I'm a good girl. I'm. Well, for those who are just tuning in, I had a big mid-30s breakup last summer, which was sort of documented.

[Caroline]

Through our discussion of the year, our.

[Jen]

Miniseries that went on for four months in the end, because we just got way too into it and it was so fun. Yeah. You know, I remain a single woman about town.

[Caroline]

Single woman with a book who's.

[Jen]

With a book that I'm writing.

[Caroline]

Who's moving house?

[Jen]

I'm moving house. I'm moving house. I will live very close to you and Gav and Sylvie, which is going to be so nice.

[Caroline]

Really nice. We're making our own little shire.

[Jen]

We're making the shire that we've always wanted. I can't wait. And actually, mashed potato is really topical for me right now because it's the only thing I can eat right now.

[Caroline]

Because you had some major tooth surgery.

[Jen]

Yeah. We won't go into the body horror of that, but if I sound a little bit like a lispy because I've got. I'm missing some teeth.

[Caroline]

It sounds like there's more space in Jen's mouth.

[Jen]

There Is there physically is There physically is. And I'm lucky enough to have a friend who didn't mind when I said, can you bring some potatoes to come and look after me for the weekend? And then just mash them constantly. Not in a st.

[Caroline]

It was my honor it was your.

[Jen]

You did. To be honest, it doesn't surprise me, but you do make a phenomenal mash.

[Caroline]

You know what? It shouldn't.

[Jen]

It's good hot. It's good cold. I ate it a lot.

[Caroline]

So I'm.

[Jen]

Well, if anyone's concerned, I'm very well. Just. Just a little bit fewer of teeth.

[Caroline]

You know what I like to think, and it can be untrue and maybe, and you can tell me if it is, is that your decision to move up the road and recreate our own little Hobbiton in. In southeast London may have come from the period over the winter time where there was a real stint there where you were coming over every Sunday and we three just roast a chicken together and watch Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Rings adjacent properties, including the Hobbit and also the Nicholas Hoult biopic Tolkien.

[Jen]

Oh, my God, I'd forgotten about the Nicholas Holt biopic Tolkien.

[Caroline]

I've done it every day.

[Jen]

Lily Collins. Also as his wife. The odd, like, real energy of. They were contracted by that studio and they had to do something. I don't think that was ever possible.

[Caroline]

Or they agreed in theory, in a meeting years ago. And then it turned out that that agreement was binding.

[Jen]

And then they were like, well, I guess I'm gonna play Tolkien and his lovely wife, whose name I've actually forgotten, which is very in keeping with the whole of Lord of the Rings, because women don't have names in Lord of the Rings. And that's just sad just the way it is.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Actually there are five who do. Five named characters.

[Caroline]

Yes, exactly.

[Jen]

And I really like that one of them is a giant spider. I think that's a really important thing about Lord of the Rings for me.

[Caroline]

So, like, when did you first come to Lord of the Rings? Because I would say that I'm a very late comer to Lord of the Rings. But you have even. Like, before I was kind of a super fan because it's quite a recent thing that I've become a super fan of it. I really had you in my head as like, my Middle Earth friend.

[Jen]

I don't know if that's partly because I really enjoy it and partly because I look a bit like Elijah Wood. And I've always pointed that out.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you do bit.

[Jen]

Yeah. And I feel like, you know, when you do the thing of clothes you can and can't wear every now and then, I'm like, is this too Hobbit on me? Because I'm sure I've got curly hair. I've got big goggly eyes.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

And I do love corduroy.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Maybe too much.

[Caroline]

And you're a very like, you're very. You commune with nature.

[Jen]

I do. You know, I've got this big hairy feet as well. They're just normal. It's fine, don't worry. Yeah. I came to Lord of the Rings very young or rather to like the world of Middle Earth. I think the Hobbit was like the first kind of adult ish book that I read when I was like 7 or got read to me and then I read it again.

[Caroline]

It has that crazy thing of like any children's book that was written before 1995, it's like, oh, this is for 10 year olds and it has the reading age of most 30 year olds.

[Jen]

Exactly. It's not an easy read. But I remember reading it and I think that kind of. It's that point in your life when you're just a sponge and you take in stories and you're like, ah, this is the deep lore upon which I found my life. And obviously I tried reading Lord of the Rings as a kid and completely failed because fucking hell, you really can't.

[Caroline]

That is even when an audiobook, which I think is the most pleasant way to experience Lord of the Rings as a book with them. Andy Serkis reading it to you on audio as you go for long walks with your dog. Still can be a tough old shoot.

[Jen]

Is a lot of walking.

[Caroline]

You cannot underestimate how much walking. There's like some beautiful passages and great action and great characters. But also a fuck of a lot of walking and a fuck of a lot of songs.

[Jen]

The songs you can really skip over quite nicely when you're reading. You can just be like, and there's something in italics here. And I'll be ignoring it.

[Caroline]

And best believe I will be ignoring the italics.

[Jen]

I'm sure the elves had something lovely to say here. I think it's very interesting that apart from that one song. Well, one song in Return of the King and one in the Hobbit which is a banger. Peter Jackson chose to remove all the songs in his really wise, very wise choice. I think he made some wise choices. But yeah, I think I tried reading all the Rings. Didn't get on with it. And then the films came out and that was when I was what, 2001. So I'd been 15, 15 to 18. Really hit my Lord of the Rings stride there.

[Caroline]

Really great time for you.

[Jen]

Beautiful time for me.

[Caroline]

Whereas I think I missed the boat on account of being just a little bit too young, of course, because I'm 1990, so I was 11 when they came out.

[Jen]

Just a bit too young to fully experience it that way.

[Caroline]

And, like, my brothers had it on a lot kind of thing, and it just felt so. So aggressively masculine, the whole thing. And it really felt like there was nothing for me in it. And it also. There's something that happens in Lord of the Rings when you're watching it as a kid that, like, there's a kind of a. There's such a sharp jump in action from, like, it's like, the first opening 45 minutes of the Fellowship is just so lovely and fun and, like, of course that's. But we need all that material to know what we're protecting. And it's so important to know, like, we have to have this idyllic shire in order to, like, make sure that these hobbits, like, the stakes are never lost throughout. And I appreciate that so much as, like, a writer now, but back then I was like, I'm loving this sitcom in this little village.

[Jen]

Where are these horrible creatures on horseback coming from as soon as the Black Rider show?

[Caroline]

They are freaky. Exactly. And I never, like. I don't know whether I was dumb or what, but, like, I never totally understood. It's like, okay, so this ring has been hanging around for ages, but suddenly, now that this random old man gives it to his nephew, we're starting a civil war.

[Jen]

Suddenly it's activated. Like, what's a sleeper agent? All this time?

[Caroline]

And. And even still, when you watch it, it's a bit of. I find that still a bit of a stumbling block. But then something happened, so I always just ignored it. And, like, I've been, you know, running this podcast for seven, eight years, and, like I said, have been very much banging the drum of, like, stuff for girls. Girls, stuff that they like. And I feel very happy to say that, like, I've slightly exhausted that category now. Yeah.

[Jen]

I feel like almost if I try and think of a new thing for girls to talk about, unless it's actually just come out. You've done it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

You've covered it. Covered all the historical stuff for us.

[Caroline]

The amount of times people will DM me or email me, like, oh, have you thought of doing this? I'm like, you check the archives, girl. Just Google it before you message, I've done it, but. Or, like, it feels like, I don't know, but it feels like I've done a lot. Or it feels like I've talked about the same Subjects a lot, even if I've not talked about the same film or whatever. And I feel like I've really, like, won my personal battle against Sauron with regards to the subject of snobbery and female culture. Because I'm just like, barbie movie was huge. Wicked was huge. I think we're done here. Do you know what I mean? But what I'm kind of.

[Jen]

It's for them.

[Caroline]

But I kind of feel more fascinated now with things like Lord of the Rings about, like, boy things that we love in a girl way.

[Jen]

The thing I am thinking as you're talking about it not landing with you when you were 11 and it did land with me when I was 15 to 18. There is a lot for a straight girl to love in this film which you might not.

[Caroline]

Oh, now I know which pre adolescence.

[Jen]

You might not have really understood. Like the bits where they were doing some war and I wasn't too bothered. I was like, well, at least they're all really pretty. There's a lot there to hold the attention. If you are between the ages of 15 and 18 and living in basically Middle England and just having quite a boring life and going to school and that's men with kind of dirty hair, swinging swords. I enjoyed it. It was formative for many reasons.

[Caroline]

Very interesting because this is like a man to fancy based on what sort of stage of development you are kind of thing. Because, like, there's. You've got like, okay, Elijah Wood who basically looks like a boy child kind of thing. So if you are like 10 or 11, you're like, what if he were my little boyfriend?

[Jen]

He is hot, though.

[Caroline]

Then we sc. We get Legolas. It's like, I'm 14. I'm ready to think about men, but not quite.

[Jen]

Yes. They need to be still quite feminine and quite safe. I need to feel like I could brush their hair like they're my little pony. And then we could talk about things whilst I braided it. And I don't know what happens after that, right?

[Caroline]

Then it's like you hit 18, you got a leather jacket. Maybe you've had sex. Aragorn, you're ready. It's here. You're in your late 20s. You're kind of ready to just like drink pints with your boyfriend and watch movies on the weekend. It's Gimli. And then, of course, you're settling into your Gandalf stage.

[Jen]

The long, slow road to Gandalf, who's also hot, let's be fair.

[Caroline]

Yeah, who, of course. I mean, of course Gandalf. In this movie, his best friend is Shadowfax.

[Jen]

Oh, my God. The Lord of all the Horses. And there are just so many other just side characters who are also just randomly hot.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Who's randomly hot to you?

[Jen]

Listen, Faramir and Boromir.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Bit of room for both of those. Old Sean Bean. And man, who's Ginger.

[Caroline]

Which one's not Sean Bean? Faramir.

[Jen]

Faramir.

[Caroline]

Every time I see Faramir, I Google Faramir. Donal Gleeson, question mark. Even though he would have been, like, 15 when this came out.

[Jen]

Maybe.

[Caroline]

I know, but it is him. It's just Donal Gleeson before. It does look a lot like Quantum Leap did North of Ring.

[Jen]

Yes. And then, of course, Theoden, who we know from Shirley Valentine, whose name I've completely forgotten.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

That dude.

[Caroline]

That guy.

[Jen]

That guy who.

[Caroline]

That guy whose name I definitely know, but we were out last night, so.

[Jen]

So it's gone. It's gone into the void. Yeah, Him. Ayoma could do Ayoma.

[Caroline]

Is he.

[Jen]

Both the other hobbits apart from Sam would also.

[Caroline]

Oh, I would definitely flip both those hobbits. Yeah. Mary and Pippen. Double team by Mary Pippen. Are you kidding?

[Jen]

What an adventure that would be.

[Caroline]

It comes in pints. Bet you come in pints. Fucking disgusting.

[Jen]

I think that was a.

[Caroline]

Is that a vision of my nephew listening to this?

[Jen]

So this podcast is about the love.

[Caroline]

Of magical fantasy storytelling.

[Jen]

And which men from Lord of the Rings would we have sex with in which order?

[Caroline]

So the name of this episode is Lord of the Rings, comma, ranked. And we're not ranking all the boys because they're all beautiful in their own way.

[Jen]

All beautiful in their own way.

[Caroline]

Except for Sam. But I love him in a different way.

[Jen]

He's got a different energy and different, you know, some of the antagonists.

[Caroline]

Yes. Yeah. And you know, they're the antagonists because they have bad teeth.

[Jen]

It's one of my favorite things.

[Caroline]

Once you pointed that out to me, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, even. Obviously, you've got the Orcs and the Uruk hai and all that, but it's like, even. Even sort of like minor characters who are sort of rough or barbarian. Ish. Or we're not on their side. It's just like, check the teeth. We don't like them.

[Jen]

Exactly. And if you're not sure, for example, Saruman, who starts out being like, oh, he's a good wizard. No. Christopher Lee did not have straight teeth. And that's how you know he's gonna turn out to Be a villain. Peter Jackson, your tell. If he was a poker player, like, we'd get him.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. I mean, he put bad debts. It makes a whole lot of sense that, like, the generation that grew up on Lord of the Rings are also the generation to embrace Invisalign. Right. I think that's. I honestly think that's the foundation later in life. Orthodontia has never been more.

[Jen]

And we're both people who have, I think, a huge amount of teeth anxiety on account of both having big tooth things.

[Caroline]

Indeed.

[Jen]

That was the genesis of your amazing new book, Skipshock was the amount of time you spent in dentist chairs.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God.

[Jen]

Disassociating from yourself.

[Caroline]

Yeah. That was literally it. Like, if any of you pick up my new book, Skip Add June Tooth, and it seems like, wow, this is a crazy idea. Think about. Think about a woman in the middle of lockdown going through a series of incredibly painful dental procedures, and think of all the ways that she had to entertain herself in the dentist's chair. Because that is literally how this book came to be.

[Jen]

It truly was a huge journey of the imagination away from the drills and the saws.

[Caroline]

Well, that's it. I mean, like, I guess. I mean, it's the most often repeated thing about fantasy storytelling. Right. Is that it is a form of escapism. Right. I think all. All form of. Even travel is a form of fantasy escapism. Right.

[Jen]

Because you're sort of like, what if I'm not me? What if I'm a version of me on holiday?

[Caroline]

Totally. It's quite the literal physical escapism. But with fantasy, it's like, you know, I'm always so struck by the most, you know, famous fantasy authors in the world are people who've written a billion books. And it's like those people who, like, you know, like Robin Hobb or something or. Or those people where you go to some fantasy lovers bookshelf, and it's just like books that just keep getting thicker and thicker and thicker, and it's three or four shelves of the same writer, like the Wheel of Time books or whatever. And there's something. It's interesting because it's kind of. It actually isn't in keeping with the rest of literature, where, for example, Harper Lee is one of the most famous novelists of all time, famously one book. And like, you know, I guess maybe Dickens is the outlier of there. But like, for a lot of people, when they say favorite writer, they are talking about two or three books. But fantasy writers, fantasy fans, they're talking about about a suite of 20 to 30 books, you know, And I think that's, like. It's really amazing to me about, like, an amazing. Fascinating, but also chilling when I think about, like, two of our biggest contemporary fantasy authors, J.K. rowling and Neil Gaiman, who are both people who have been, you know, in different ways, exposed to be truly fucking awful human beings. And, like, the kind of. Obviously, the worst thing that happens when somebody turns out to be awful is the direct victims of that awfulness. In Gaiman's case, the victims of his assaults in J.K. rowling's place, every single trans person on planet Earth. But there's also, like, what happens to the people who previously took such refuge in those materials? They become kind of ideologically homeless, you know.

[Jen]

Yeah. What was to say space has suddenly turned out to just be.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

A horrid little chamber of echoes and nastiness.

[Caroline]

Exactly. And I often think that, like, you know, this is completely unfounded. It's totally just me theorizing on a Friday morning when I'm slightly hungover. But, like, is the kind of fandom that comes with fantasy storytelling, which is so dedicated and so, like, I trust you to bring me anywhere. Also the kind of behavior that enables some of the worst people in the world.

[Jen]

I'm gonna go, yes, I think that is true. I think there's so much around that kind of fantasy writers, kind of. They are almost more than any other writer, kind of little gods who create their own worlds because they just invent something from the ground up, which has maybe got some links back to the world as we know it. But it feels so real and so immersive that I think for a lot of people, fantasy series can be a way of do literally become an escape from their world. If they're having a shit time or, you know, whether it's at school or in life, they can escape in their minds into these worlds. And I think you look at fan fiction and how huge that is, and fan fiction exists almost exclusively around fantasy. I think.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

Or, like, certainly in its biggest sections. You don't really get a lot of fan fiction for Harper Lee. You know, you don't get Charles Dickens fan fiction, but you get J.K. rowling. You get probably Esther J. Maas. I don't know. I've not looked. If you get any of these big franchises of fantasy, there is someone out there who's like, but what if this character had sex with this character? What if this happened?

[Caroline]

In my experience as both a fantasy author and a Contemporary literature, adult author, I guess you would call it, is that, like, I have been sent for my ya, which is like. Does well like my owner Hidden Gift series have done. Thank you very much. I wrote them a few years ago. They've done pretty well. Like, I'm really proud of them. They make their money back and they, you know, one of them was on the New York Times bestseller list. Very proud of that. But, you know, modest successes. They have. They have fan fiction about them and they have Tumblr art about them. Whereas the Rachel Incident, which has, like, sold far better. It's like I have never seen one person attempt to, like, you know, experiment.

[Jen]

Within that world, you know, fiction of the Rachel Incident. It would be an odd choice.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

But I think it is just like when you create a fantasy world, you almost breathe life into it and it separates. Which is maybe the one nice thing to take out of this, is that perhaps if, like, if someone really did grow up and Harry Potter is fundamental to their sense of self or something Neil Gaiman wrote as. Maybe they can still. They probably need to not talk about it in public too much at this point in time, but I think there's still a home for them there in their heart, if they can create.

[Caroline]

I really do agree. There's something at the. We'll get on to Lord of the Rings in just a second.

[Jen]

We will. We absolutely will.

[Caroline]

But there's something that the author Daniel Handler said, who is Lemony Snicket, who. That really stuck with me, where he's like. He was talking about Roald Dahl and he was like, you know, and he. He is a Jewish person, and he was saying, you know, Roald Dahl was famously sort of anti Semitic. And he. And not just, you know, a little bit sort of. You can smell it in his work sometimes, but also in his personal letters and diaries. It was quite evident. And he was like. But he's like, I'm never going to give up reading Roald Dahl because the reason I know. The reason we know that he is a problematic person is because he's very famous. And he's very famous because everyone's read his books. And it's like. And he's like, well, why would I? We have the knowledge because of the quality of the work. It's like the knowledge of the work gets balanced. Like, it inflates to a. To a sense where we then start magnifying more people.

[Jen]

Oh, wait, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

So he's like, why would I deny future generations the joy I had when I've been like, I've been able to sort of like separate out these things. So why would I deny an 8 year old the same chance to separate that later in life? Just be. I'm probably trying to get it wrong. He writes it very well.

[Jen]

That is very fair. Although I have to say, I probably wouldn't give anyone Harry Potter. Yeah, no, I'm not gifting that anybody. No. But I mean, I also. Even before J.K. rowling revealed herself to be a massive transphobe as a bookseller who had to work all the night launches for it, that was already in my bad place. It was already a dark, dark place for me. Harry Potter having to dress up as a fortune teller and do face painting until like 2 in the morning.

[Caroline]

Oh God. You can. Yeah, I can see.

[Jen]

Oh God, no.

[Caroline]

You get overtime for that.

[Jen]

Yeah. You get paid extra.

[Caroline]

Not enough.

[Jen]

I'll be honest, there's no amount of enough that could be. Look, some booksellers maybe loved the Harry Potter launches. I loathed them.

[Caroline]

That is so fucking fair enough.

[Jen]

But you know what? Lord of the Rings. There have been no book launches of Lord of the rings for seven years.

[Caroline]

This all came out in the 40s.

[Jen]

And I'm sure that Tolkien was probably quite unpleasant in many ways from his biopic. He seemed nice, but I'm sure that that was sanctioned by his family. But we don't know.

[Caroline]

We don't know.

[Jen]

We know that he didn't care much about women and.

[Caroline]

And honestly, his prerogative.

[Jen]

And I don't know that he was hot on race and diversity in any other way.

[Caroline]

No. Nuh, no, sir.

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

But let's continue anyway.

[Jen]

But let's continue anyway because these films, I love them.

[Caroline]

I love them so much.

[Jen]

I love them so much. I love everything about them.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And so when you said to me, let's rank all the storylines of Lord of the Rings, obviously there is the one big storyline, which is a fellowship of men, Dwarf elf, hobbits set out to defeat a giant burning eye in the sky. Like that's the big story. We all know that. But there are within that so many other little stories.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And we were like, let's rank them totally.

[Caroline]

And so like, we've narrowed it down to 10 main subplots.

[Jen]

We have.

[Caroline]

And sort of. We're not like stories that technically do have a beginning, middle and end. For example, Sam and Rosie are not included because they don't necessarily feed into the kind of the destruction of the Ring. They're just kind of a.

[Jen]

By the way, I mean, we could probably have got 40, but we only have so much time, so 10 is what we've got. We've got 10 key stories and shall.

[Caroline]

I start our countdown? By the way, this list was composed by Jen, not me. So there will be fights and that's.

[Jen]

There are going to be fights. And I think part of the reason is that I composed my list worst to best based on just my emotional relationship to that storyline, which in many cases and in fact in all cases started when I was 15 years old. So, you know, over 20 years ago.

[Caroline]

And have there been major changes to how you felt about storylines?

[Jen]

Some small changes, yes, which I'm sure we'll discuss, but fundamentally, some of them, like you sent me some voice, some punchy voice notes the other night. You were like, what the fuck is, why is this so high? And like, I was like, I'll tell you. I'll tell you why you tried it again last night.

[Caroline]

Look at.

[Jen]

You were trying to get out of me.

[Caroline]

I was. I was trying to get out of you last night.

[Jen]

Now is the time. Now is the time, Caroline, to hear about this.

[Caroline]

The storylines now. Now at Verizon we have some big news for your peace of mind for all our customers, existing and new. We're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on my plan and my home. That's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind because of Verizon. Whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. Moms deserve our very best, especially on Mother's Day. There's only one place I trust to deliver high quality mom Approved rose bouquets. 1-800-flowers.com this year, 1,800Flowers wants to make sure all the mothers in your life get the best with double the roses for free. When you buy one dozen, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen roses. To claim the double roses offer, go to 1-800-flowers.com acast. That's 1-800-flowers. Com acast. The official florist of Mother's Day. The time. All right, coming at number 10, Gondor.

[Jen]

Gondor is the worst storyline in all.

[Caroline]

Of Lord of the Rings. Remind us of the storyline of Gondor.

[Jen]

Gondor basically is a kingdom that lost its king for a long time.

[Caroline]

Why no one's do you know what, by the way, I so am with you on this one, by the way, because I think it's the patchiest storytelling, but it's given all this weight by the narrative that is really unearned.

[Jen]

And like, why did they lose the king? Where did they go?

[Caroline]

Why did Aragorn live in Rivendell for a while?

[Jen]

The kings are literally half immortal. They live for like a really long time.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

The Numenoreans, sure. Where did they lose him?

[Caroline]

How it feels like that whole storyline is missing a prequel.

[Jen]

Well, I mean, I think a bit of it is in the Rings of Power.

[Caroline]

Is it now? Okay.

[Jen]

Which I've watched in the sense that it's been on when I've been in the same room and no one else has been there. It's just been me and my television. But I've been doing other stuff.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

But I don't think he thought that through. I think he was just like, what if there was a kingdom and it had lost its king?

[Caroline]

Yeah. We don't know why.

[Jen]

No one's clear on why. And then he comes back. Yeah, like, that's. I just honestly, I care little about this storyline. It's one I care about.

[Caroline]

We care about Viggo Mortensen in the sense that he is hot.

[Jen]

That's effectively.

[Caroline]

That's effectively it.

[Jen]

The Viggo Mortison love triangle. Love to hiss here. Interested in that? Very much. Love to see his face.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

Love to see him jumping around doing things. Don't care for his kingly heritage.

[Caroline]

And. Okay, so when we're talking about the Gondor plotline. So, yes, they were the kingdom that they lost their king, however many times ago, we don't know why.

[Jen]

So long ago they did.

[Caroline]

But now they have like, the Steward of Gondor. Right.

[Jen]

And he sucks.

[Caroline]

And he fucking sucks. But like, I mean, I don't. He does suck in such an exquisitely human way.

[Jen]

Yeah, he does.

[Caroline]

Other people in Lord of the Rings suck because they're like, evil. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Evil in a very kind of like sort of textbook way. I suppose. A very genre suitable way.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

But the Steward of Gondor, whatever the fuck is, what's his fucking name?

[Jen]

I don't even know if he gets a name, does he?

[Caroline]

He does. Hang on. I have the name written down. Okay.

[Jen]

I bet it ends in Myr.

[Caroline]

So the steward of Gondor is.

[Jen]

Denethor.

[Caroline]

Denethor.

[Jen]

Oh, Denethor came back to me.

[Caroline]

And he will be known to all of you as the cherry tomato king. Right.

[Jen]

And note, because it's a close up on his mouth. Wonky teeth.

[Caroline]

Wonky teeth, exactly. And he is the father to Boromir, who's Sean Bean, who is one of our Fellowship lads. And Faramir, who's Donald Gleeson.

[Jen]

Yeah. And like, what's that about? He really loves Boromir. He doesn't love Faramir for a reason. No one's sure why. Faramir's having a terrible time. There is a very beautiful scene, I think, when in the third film. Or is it the third film? It must be the third film when Gandalf sends back the Nazgul and they're leaving Osgiliath. I think that one always gets me. When he rides out to rescue Faramir.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

That's the only bit of the Gondor storyline that I care about. When Faramir is nearly dead and he's coming back from trying to hold the city, even though it's basically a suicide mission.

[Caroline]

Yes, yes.

[Jen]

And then Gandalf rides out with his big stick and goes like, ooo with like a little like twilly noise, like Enya style. And I'm always like, oh, I well up. That's the only bit of Gondor that you like. And Aragon being hot, that bit.

[Caroline]

So it's interesting its placement here is number 10. Because I think from a storytelling point of view you're absolutely bang on in terms of like, there's so many holes there that we're just being like, I guess, whatever.

[Jen]

Aragondo.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And also the lack of diversity in Lord of the Rings has been very well established. And I think Peter Jackson thought he was making this sort of, you know, huge fantasy franchise and in a world where he thought he had to be sort of really faithful to the ideas that Tolkien had in his head. And like, I'm sure he's not like an objectively racist man or anything. He was just like, well, this kind of Arthurian kind of fantasy that we're dealing with is predominantly about and for white people. So that's who I'm gonna think about. Which fucking sucks, by the way. And I'm so glad that we've moved past that now. But another real pitfall of there being 0% melanin in this film is that everyone looks the same.

[Jen]

Yeah. You're just like, Gondor.

[Caroline]

There are so many middle aged men and like, who just look the same. And I kind of forget who I'm looking at sometimes. And like that whole. The Gondor, like Thing. I'm like, who's this again? I'm so, who's this again with Gondor? So a lot of the time. And the other. The horse people.

[Jen]

Well, you're gonna have to come back on that one because I love the horse people.

[Caroline]

We love the horse people, but you know what I mean? Like, whenever we're dealing with, like, not. Not Elves, not Hobbits, there's no.

[Jen]

Whatever, really.

[Caroline]

Exactly. They're all the whitest people, and they all. There's so many characters who are between the ages, sort of like 40 and 55. I'm like, who the fuck is that?

[Jen]

Totally. And I just think. Look, I was about to say, I'm glad Gondor's in there. I don't know. I think you could take it out of those films and it would probably be fine.

[Caroline]

Yeah. No, the thing is. So I do like the dynamic of the father and the two sons and how fucking gross that man is.

[Jen]

Yeah, he is. Rim.

[Caroline]

Like, there is kind of nothing more. Like, the thing about these films is that everything happens in the right way at the right time. And that's really hard to do. And that, like, that sort of. I mean, it's gonna be hard to talk about these storylines that, you know.

[Jen]

Well, I mean, we're assuming that everyone has seen these films.

[Caroline]

Yes. But also. Yeah. Straying into our discussion of other storylines, but, like, when. I think it's Pippin, isn't it? Who do you know?

[Jen]

I can never tell you which one is which. And I love these films.

[Caroline]

I think we will be using Mary and Pippin interchangeably.

[Jen]

I think Pippin is the Scottish one and Merry is the west country one, I think. But I could be wrong. One's Billy Boyd, one's Dominic Monaghan.

[Caroline]

The thing is, I both. I love them both the same.

[Jen]

Yeah, I love the same.

[Caroline]

And that whole thing where, like, he has to be the little servant to. And he sings his song and what's the line he says where he's like. He has this, like, little tiny moment of protest where he's, like. He's eating or whatever, his disgusting cherry tomato, and he says something to Pippin and he's just like, sing me a song. Blah, blah, blah. And he says, like, oh, my, people have no sort of songs for occasions like this.

[Jen]

Yes. For sort of dark times or something along those lines.

[Caroline]

And it's.

[Jen]

Yes, he's. That. That is a beautiful moment. But again, that comes from Mary and Pippen.

[Caroline]

It does. And it comes from, like, the way they're observing, like, we've yeah. At that point, you've been in such a journey with Mary and Pippin. The fact that they're not just separated, which is the worst thing to ever happen, worse than any more crime that happens in this film, is that they get split up and that they're just sort of. It's kind of. You're watching the sort of death of innocence in Pippin's eyes. Like he's kind of lived a simple life his whole life and the kind of. The sort of blind faith that rulers have your best interests at heart. And he's just watching this disgusting feasting man. So I get why it's number 10. It's bad storytelling, but some great performances. And it's got one of the best death scenes in all of Spiderman. Oh, my God.

[Jen]

Straight off the long drop, past the white tree that's failed. No one knows why.

[Caroline]

So it's like he's trying to set Faramir on fire.

[Jen]

His son is alive. Mariandel. Pippin. Pippin is like, no, he's alive. In fact, Denethor was like, no, whatever. And then he just gets set on fire and runs off the edge of a cliff. Honestly. Iconic. Look. There are moments of great joy in Gondor, but I still think it's number 10 for a reason.

[Caroline]

Good.

[Jen]

What's number 9?

[Caroline]

Saruman.

[Jen]

Saruman.

[Caroline]

Why is he number 9?

[Jen]

So, listen, I put this in because in the books, Saruman has a big, big story arc.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

And it goes on longer than it does in the films. And I think this is another wise decision by Peter Jackson, which is to just not bother with Saruman. After booked, after film two, he's just. He's just gone. And the reason that he's gone is that no one cares that much. Like, he's a wizard. Which is basically a kind of. In Middle Earth lore is he's sort of like an angel. The wizards are kind of these, like, angelic beings of light who are for some reason bound into the body of old graybeard men because it's thought that that's how they can do the least harm. I don't know if that's like a ironic statement because, I mean, we live in a world where men, old men can really do sun damage.

[Caroline]

Oh, yeah.

[Jen]

But, yeah, the thought is that, like, oh, well, this will contain them. We'll put them in these, like, sort of haggard old male bodies and that's. That'll keep them from doing anything to keep them humble. Keep them humble. Not so Saruman, he's still like, what if I switch sides.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

What if I betrayed my friend Gandalf the Grey?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Got involved with the big eye in the sky and also birthed horrific creatures from the earth beneath my castle. And, like, that's all, you know. We need that antagonist. We need him for Helm's Deep, we need him for everything else. And then he dies and that's it, he's gone, he's vanished. I think Christopher Lee was quite pissed off about this.

[Caroline]

Yes. Because famously, Christopher Lee was like the head of the J.R. tolkien Fan Club. He was like a proper, proper super fan. Right?

[Jen]

He, like, met him or something.

[Caroline]

Yes. Yeah. Like, he was. He was really a day one, er. A day one swifty for Tolkien. He was.

[Jen]

He was on the ground floor.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And he was really annoyed that I think things like the. What was it called? Like, the Ravaging of the Shire. There's this whole bit of, like, Saruman that just. Peter Jackson was like, ah, you know what? His story ends in Book two. And I think he was correct.

[Caroline]

It was the ravaging of the shy. Do you know what? I couldn't take that.

[Jen]

Right, exactly.

[Caroline]

Again, Peter Jackson, the right things happen at the right time and that would be a wrong thing to happen at every time.

[Jen]

And I think this was a really good decision on Peter Jackson's part because I didn't need him in film 3. I didn't need to be splitting my energy between two enemies. I didn't need to be worrying about him. He fell off the top of his tower again, a great death. In the extended edition, of course. He falls onto a water wheel and then just goes slowly, slowly, slowly underneath.

[Caroline]

Which is just like a disgustingly mortal death.

[Jen]

It's like a kebab.

[Caroline]

Like a kebab.

[Jen]

It's like horror turning slowly on the spit. Nasty. And that's the right thing. And I would say, like, as a kind of point.

[Caroline]

Yeah. The end scam. And the end. Right.

[Jen]

The end scared. I mean, and the end's different story one that I fucking love. But, yeah, I just think for me, it's number nine because it's in there. It's needed to kind of get the action going in the second film, but it didn't need to go any further than that. And I would say for me, stories 9 and 10 in our list of 10 are the two where I'm like, eh, yeah, I don't care about them above here. I like them all. I'm just ranking them.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's also. Yeah, I'm just ranking them. For the love of God. I'M just ranking them.

[Jen]

It doesn't mean I dislike them. But Saruman.

[Caroline]

Yeah, but this is the. This is like whenever you're ranking anything Lord of the Rings, it comes. It's a bit like, you know, when you're ranking members of the Beatles, you're just like, listen, we all love all of them, but if we have. If we have to, which one is the worst? Someone's gotta be the worst. And here it's Gondor and Saruman and.

[Jen]

I think Saruman, the great gift it gives us is the ends and we will come back to. The Ents.

[Caroline]

Thing that I like in Saruman's storyline though is first of all that thing. You have to appreciate that like Sauron himself is a kind of a celestial being kind of thing. It's a really bad villain because you're like, what does he want? Power, I guess. Kind of. It's quite shit. And like, I also know this from writing something that me and Tolkien have in common.

[Jen]

You and your friend JRR Is that.

[Caroline]

When you're writing a trilogy or any kind of series of books, it's like you. You do sort of need two antagonists really. You need that sort of first antagonist who you get really up close and personal with and you're like. You really feel like you know the sinews of their rage so well. And then once you beat them, because you need to have that sort of midway through victory really. So it feels like that your heroes are really gaining some power. But then you still have so much more to go. And so you have this distant fear that is kind of harder to know. And so I really do. I did that in all our hidden gifts. Because I have Aaron, who is this fundamentalist Christian Nazi boy. And then it turns out he's our friend all along. And then, yeah, it's also.

[Jen]

It's not. Not Legend of Zelda. You've always gotta have Ganondorf lurking in his castle somewhere.

[Caroline]

It's very that.

[Jen]

But you also need to have some sub villains that you can take down one at a time.

[Caroline]

But that, that.

[Jen]

So that Saruman is one of those.

[Caroline]

The Saruman moment that I think is like, yeah, you are right. And it's also. It's very. It's a bit camp, isn't it, Saruman?

[Jen]

I do enjoy the campness. I think the wizard battle is a phenomenal scene. 100 like, is there any other thing in cinematic history where two quite elderly looking men fight without touching one another? But incredibly, gorily, it's good stuff.

[Caroline]

It's like that when he's making the Uruk Hai, I think it's fucking great.

[Jen]

Oh, when he's just like taking, like, sort of the amniotic sack off their faces and then sticking. Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

And putting the white hand on his thing. And also, one of the dynamics I love in this film is Saruman in his sort of, like, next in line, his kind of shmi kind of thing, who's like an orc. And he's like. He's like, whoa, make more. Make more weapons or more whatever. And he's like. The guy is like, well, the thing is, we need some more. We need more fuel and this. And he's trying to be. So if he's so line managery about it, he's like, well, fucking burn the forest then. And he's like, oh, God, okay.

[Jen]

That is like. I think about that moment, like, almost every day that I am at work when it's like, burn the forests. But we don't have resources now. Burn the forest. Make the PowerPoints. That is my corporate job.

[Caroline]

You can so see his frustration as a line manager. It's like, bring me solutions, not problems.

[Jen]

Literally, you're there and you're being like, listen, I can't. There's no more foyer in the forge.

[Caroline]

Yeah, come on.

[Jen]

How do they find it?

[Caroline]

It's like, I know you want to make the sort of, like, you know, apocalyptic army, but, like, I'm on the ground floor here. I'm dealing with people.

[Jen]

You've got the vision, but I'm having to execute it.

[Caroline]

The Uruk Ha are asking for time off.

[Jen]

Like, you know, there's statutory working hours, there's mental health to worry about. And really, burnout is a real risk here in the Uruk Hai army.

[Caroline]

Burnout is a real risk in the Uruk Hai army. And we see that burnout occur. One of the main reasons why Samuron fails is because he sort of. He doesn't have any people skills with his own army.

[Jen]

It's so true.

[Caroline]

So true.

[Jen]

It's so true. There should somewhere be some corporate training about. Like.

[Caroline]

There is, because he basically, he dispatches the Uruk Hai and the orcs together, and then there's infighting and then they're just like.

[Jen]

They hate one another.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Wow. They haven't done any sort of team leading, team building skills, anything.

[Jen]

And, like, let's be clear, they are like, they're not the same.

[Caroline]

They're not the same.

[Jen]

It's like.

[Caroline]

It's like one is an ancient race of people and the other are goo from the Earth.

[Jen]

Right. It's almost as though you, as a conversation, two subcontractors from different companies that you put together and said, work together. Like you're one company, but you're not one company. And if you're thinking, why did you make this particular reference? It's because that's also a thing I live every day.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

The creative agency and the media agency just do the work together. We're two separate companies. We're the orcs and the Uruk Hai. Like, sure, we have something, we do different things and we get on quite well. But, like, fundamentally different people own us. One is owned by Sauron and the other is owned by Saruman.

[Caroline]

Such a good point. So.

[Jen]

So do you know what I said? It's number nine. I do care for it.

[Caroline]

I do care for it. Number eight, you've put Frodo, Sam and Gollum.

[Jen]

This is gonna be contentious. I can see it in your eyes.

[Caroline]

It's.

[Jen]

She looked at me, like, with a Gollum look.

[Caroline]

No, do you know what? Cause I. Watching the Two Towers again last night, which, by the way, it's really hard to say the Two Towers and not the Twin Towers, which, if you think about the year this came out, pretty fucking punchy.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

We were not that far out.

[Jen]

2002. This came out.

[Caroline]

The Two Towers. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

[Jen]

And it would have been. Yeah, we're talking like 12, 13 months. It would have been December 2002.

[Caroline]

There must have been some conversations.

[Jen]

100%. And I'm sure that Peter Jackson was like, well, that's what the book's called. Yeah, the book's called the Two Towers.

[Caroline]

Wow. I wonder if anyone's asked him this before. If I had one question with Peter Jackson, I'd ask him about that.

[Jen]

Anyway, I asked you specifically about, like, how did that conversation go?

[Caroline]

The thing about Photo Salmon Gollum, that I think you're gonna say and I think I agree with, is that obviously, like, Gollum has given us a lot as a culture.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

We cannot, like, we can't be dismissive of his offerings to the culture and to the films. But there's too much of it. There's like way, way too much of it.

[Jen]

There is a lot of it. And what's quite nice, I think, about the way the films do it versus the books is at least in the films, it's slightly shortened and intercut with what the rest of the Fellowship is up to. Whereas in the book it's just like, I'm just here with Sam and Frodo and Gollum and I'm here with them for, like 300 pages or whatever.

[Caroline]

Oh, really?

[Jen]

It does go on a lot, right? I think that that is part of it. And I think it's just.

[Caroline]

I.

[Jen]

Look, it's a storyline that I love. Like Frodo and Sam. Come on. What can I say about them that hasn't been said a thousand times?

[Caroline]

Break your fucking heart.

[Jen]

Break your heart. Like, this is a story of true friendship and just people being there for one another through the worst possible moments. And Sam, the most loyal friend in the world, and his little box of salt and his rope.

[Caroline]

His little box of salt.

[Jen]

Canvas, bread.

[Caroline]

And he's just there and he's too much.

[Jen]

And, you know, I can't carry it, but I can carry you. Weep, weep, weep, weep, weep.

[Caroline]

Okay, so I'm sorry, we have to pause on I can carry it, but I can't carry it. I can carry you.

[Jen]

That is so what happens when your friend is having a bad time.

[Caroline]

You can't take it away from them.

[Jen]

She's gone. She's gone.

[Caroline]

It's so. It is so bad. It's so. Any friend having a bad time, it's like, I cannot carry your burden, but I can carry you. I can carry you.

[Jen]

I've watched that film so many times and I never fail to cry at that moment.

[Caroline]

Oh, that man. Sean Astin, the star that you are.

[Jen]

Oh, God. And Elijah Wood just. He's so haunted.

[Caroline]

He's so haunted. And you know what? I think there's often protagonist hatred in giant media properties is a very real thing.

[Jen]

Yeah. You can't hate Frodo.

[Caroline]

Whether it's like Carrie Bradshaw or Harry Potter, the character or Frodo. It's like people. People get annoyed by the fact that they're in every single scene. There are other characters with smaller screen time they would like to see more of.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And also, because you're the protagonist, you're sort of carrying a lot of narrative weight. And because you're carrying a lot of narrative weight, it doesn't allow for a lot of individual personality. There's just no room for Frodo to have more personality quirks. But having said that, I think Elijah Wood just carries this so well, and I really appreciate it every time I see it.

[Jen]

I just don't think there's anyone else who could have done that.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I just.

[Jen]

I just. He's so synonymous with Frodo Baggins in my head now. I watched a film with him just last week called Bookworm. Great Bookworm. He plays a little magician. Of course, it's set in New Zealand. And I was like, ah, look, Frodo Baggins is back. I just couldn't.

[Caroline]

Oh, my mind. He looks like a fucking hobbit. It's so cute.

[Jen]

Oh, good.

[Caroline]

So cute.

[Jen]

Still hot. Sorry.

[Caroline]

You might go for Elijah Wood.

[Jen]

Oh, 100%.

[Caroline]

That's nice.

[Jen]

Yeah. Well, they do say you attract people who look like you.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

A great episode ones. Oh, God, yeah.

[Caroline]

But you hate. But you do. Okay. Frodo and Sam.

[Jen]

I'm too much. But I actually think the main reason I put that quite low is the Frodo and Sam story is like. It's like the pace setter for the whole rest of the narrative. It's like the metronome against which everything in Lord of the Rings runs. Like the dynamite string that's getting shorter and shorter. Like it just has to be there because it sets the speed at which everything else moves.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

The entire story of Lord of the Rings is Frodo and Sam walking to Mount Doom and everything else just happens alongside it. And for that reason, I think it's like a fundamental thing. It is like, if you are. I don't do music, but it's the drummer. You know, they're setting the beat for you.

[Caroline]

It's a beat.

[Jen]

And they're not. You don't need to spend that much time with them. You really don't.

[Caroline]

There's something kind of comical about it as well, that it's like everything else happening feels so epic. And it's like, you know, and they're like the battlefield, Helm's deep and all that kind of stuff. And it's so. There's so much going on at once. And they're like, I'm Flash to Sat and Frodo and they're being a little bitchy with each other and they're just.

[Jen]

Being like, I want to make some potatoes.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I have to say, like, every time something like very deep and like, I don't. I don't know, a real childhood wound comes out every time I see Sam, Frodo and Gollum. Because it is just every family with more than two siblings.

[Jen]

It is. It is a someone's trip with three people, a la White Lotus.

[Caroline]

Someone is three people is a bad amount of people to be on a holiday.

[Jen]

Number of people to be on holiday with and particularly a road trip.

[Caroline]

Someone's gonna get Gollumed.

[Jen]

Someone's gonna get Gollumed.

[Caroline]

Someone's just like this, like, poor, like, creature on a rope being tugged along. But then like golem, but then it.

[Jen]

Switches over they're gonna turn around and then they're gonna be like, well, why we gang up on Sam?

[Caroline]

Yeah, what about Sam? Fat prick.

[Jen]

What was it? Nasty fat hobbits. Nasty fat hobbits. So many just phrases. I think some of the most memorable phrases from Lord of the Rings come from Frodo. Salmon, Gollum, definitely smash em, boil em.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Because it's a lot of dialogue, unlike the rest of the movie. You know, everything else is, you know, a lot of fighting, a lot of organizing, a lot of admin. This is a lot of character dialogue between those three.

[Jen]

Lots of character dialogue between them. And yeah, I like, I enjoyed them, but if it was just a film about the three of them, it would have been so boring.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And I feel like the first time I encountered Lord of the Rings, I expected it to be like the Hobbit. This is the hobbit going on the journey.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

I think a good choice by what is it Reginald Rule or Roland Rule? John Reginald Rouhl Tolkien. That's his full name. Good choice by him to be like, I think I'm gonna have a load of other characters.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Because there's only so long.

[Caroline]

Because these hobbits are very endearing, but.

[Jen]

They don't we need something else to distract us whilst. Whilst we're walking the. Something like 1300 miles to Mount Doom. Thirteen.

[Caroline]

Also, it's very frustrating watching them just get lost and stuff.

[Jen]

Do you know what? They were just there being like, fucking hell. You would have loved gps. You'd have loved Google Maps. Like the way they go so far out of the way twice.

[Caroline]

Twice.

[Jen]

Two times. Cross the marshes. Nah. To the Black Gate. No.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. And also I find it too painful when like Gollum succeeds in turning Frodo against Sam as well. Oh, it's too much. It's like I cannot take it when anyone's mean to Sam. It's too much.

[Jen]

I think you are a big Sam Stan.

[Caroline]

I'm a big Sam Stan, yeah. Why wouldn't I be?

[Jen]

I enjoy him. I enjoy him. But yeah, Frodo's my fave. That's.

[Caroline]

I think that's unusual. I think I'm the normal one.

[Jen]

Maybe. Maybe you are. I think I just like. I think I just identify with for some reason, a very small person carrying a massive burden across the world. I don't know why, it's not my life, but I've just always been like, yeah, that sucks.

[Caroline]

And also I think I was quite.

[Jen]

Depressed when I first watched Lord of the Rings and I was like, that's what that feels like.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And like, the. It's such a hard, hard thing to sort of visualize in cinema language. I'm sure it's easier done in the books. You know, the deep psychological burden of this ring, that's, like, engrossing him. And, like, that's why it's useful to have Gollum right there, because it's like, oh, this is what happens when you become too much of a junkie kind of thing or whatever. So we know. It's like, we know that. What? Because he's between Sam and Gollum the entire time. It's like Sam is, like, kind of the purest version of what Frodo can be and Gollum is the darkest version of what he can be. And he's just, like, constantly struggling between those two polarities.

[Jen]

And you really. And I think the fact that it is just a ring, you know, it's this tiny, almost blink and you miss it. Little thing that is so heavy and has such a weight that there's some. There's a metaphor there for what pain is and what suffering is and what, you know, illness and addiction, I guess, is that it doesn't look that big to the outside world. You're like, well, why can't you just put the ring down? I can just, like, drop it. It's not that big a deal. It's a ring. No, so true. It's consuming your whole life and everything.

[Caroline]

And I do think that is a huge part of the everlastingness of Lord of the Rings. As like. It's like, yes, it's incredible plotting and all that kind of stuff, but it's like the ring, as a metaphor remains very durable. So durable for addiction and for all kinds of things that remain contemporary, you.

[Jen]

Know, And I think it's almost. It's the fact that there isn't bombast around that central narrative. It is so quiet and so like, we're going on a really, really long.

[Caroline]

Walking holiday, sending Frodo to rehab and.

[Jen]

It'S taking a long time to get there. But it's not, you know, it's not some epic thing. They're not, you know, dragging a jeweled chariot with them. It's just this little ring and that moment right at the end when he nearly doesn't throw it in.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God.

[Jen]

And you're just like, no, Frodo.

[Caroline]

All this work we've done. Ugh.

[Jen]

And then loses a finger. It's a great story.

[Caroline]

It's a great story. Let's move on.

[Jen]

But there Are greater stories still to come?

[Caroline]

Number seven, Gandalf.

[Jen]

I love Gandalf.

[Caroline]

Carry on.

[Jen]

I love him. I think this is one of the ones that comes to you later in life. I think the first time you watch Lord of the Rings, you're like, yeah, Gandalf. There he is.

[Caroline]

Old guy.

[Jen]

Great old guy. And then later on you're like, gandalf is the architect of this entire film.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

If Sam and Frodo are the drumbeat in the background, Gandalf is the one. He is the person who sets it going. He's the person who plans it all out.

[Caroline]

He's the lighting tech.

[Jen]

He keeps the show on the road. You know, he's the producer. He is just like.

[Caroline]

He really is.

[Jen]

He is spinning so many plates. He's the only one who's just like. And there's Gondor over and Rohan and just like. He knows so much and yet he's still fun enough to do a little party and do some fireworks. And I just think that that's so true. That's just like.

[Caroline]

He's a great manager.

[Jen]

He's a fantastic manager.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I mean, the two wizards really are just kind of lessons. Someone's definitely written a book about, like, madness.

[Jen]

Saruman versus Gandalf.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Gandalf is, like, encouraging, supportive. You know, he's a safe space. Psychological safety is very big for Gandalf.

[Caroline]

I think psychological safety is very big.

[Jen]

His team can come to him and be like, I'm really struggling. And he's like, well, so do all who live to see such times. But all we can do is make the most of what we've got. And I feel like, you know, again.

[Caroline]

And he sets them challenges that are out there outside of what they believe to be their reach but he knows is within their reach.

[Jen]

And he's just. And he does the thing, you know, he will take one for the team when he needs to. For example, by fighting Balrog for endless millennia on top of a mountain until he smites it down. That's like the moment when you're just like, no, no, no, you're not staying late. I'm staying late.

[Caroline]

I'm staying late.

[Jen]

I'm fixing this for you. Fly, you fools. Get out there. Enjoy the sunshine and the. I will do it.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, you do. Fight Balrog for the juniors.

[Jen]

I would fight Balrog for the juniors. Many, many people would.

[Caroline]

Fighting Balrog for the junior.

[Jen]

I think that's what he does.

[Caroline]

It's like at a certain point you have to say, you're 26 and you're not being paid well enough to be here. Fly, you fools.

[Jen]

Fly, you fools. And that's what Gandalf does so well.

[Caroline]

Fabulous.

[Jen]

He's keeping. But he's done empowering them, you know, Frodo and Sam. He's not micromanaging them. He's not coming with them. Would have been a lot easier if he did, but he doesn't. He's like, you can't.

[Caroline]

Because I just. Saruman and Gandalf are just two opposing management styles.

[Jen]

Right? One's good, one's bad.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Because I believe Saruman thinks he's empowering his juniors, but he's not. He's setting them up to fail.

[Jen]

I think he's got quite a traditional dictatorial style of management.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I think he's just like. I say, do it. You say, how high? You burn the forest. And Gandalf's like, okay, okay, let's work through this. What's your preferred communication style? Do you want WhatsApp or do you want email?

[Caroline]

We've all worked at those jobs where, like, we've had a horrible boss, but they can really summon charisma in times of strife. And Samaran does have that. Remember when he's, like, screaming at all the barbarians, being like, they drove you into the mountains. And they're like, yes.

[Jen]

And the bit when he's just, like, shouting at the mountain to make it snow. I love that moment. The thing is, he's a great orator.

[Caroline]

If I had a job interview with Gandalf and a job interview with Samarand and they both offered me a job, I would probably take Samantha. I would be so taken in by all. He could promise me his big, like, his white robe. Whereas Gandalf wouldn't promise me anything. He's like, well, we run a tight ship around here.

[Jen]

And Gandalf would just be like, well, sometimes we have a little party. Do you like cheese?

[Caroline]

Once a year, I go to Hobbiton.

[Jen]

Absolutely.

[Caroline]

Your corporate retreat is at the Shire. Fuck that.

[Jen]

He's just. He's smoking a lot of weed, actually.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah, he's very. Yeah, he's very east coast. He is. But I.

[Jen]

And I just think I love him. And he does save the day on a couple of very powerful occasions. But he doesn't. Again, he doesn't take all the glory, you know? No, he's like, I can't do this on my own. There are a couple of moments, like when he looked for me on the fourth day when he comes from the East Fifth day. My God, how did I forget that? Strike me from the Lord of the Rings fan club. Take away my pin badge.

[Caroline]

Krista R. Le Very upset with you.

[Jen]

He's spinning in his grave that moment. Seeing that in the cinema for the first time. Seeing Gandalf at the head of the returned Rohirrim, riding down in the dawn to take on the Orc army at Helm's Deep again, just like, wow. Shivers. Little weep. Yeah.

[Caroline]

So important.

[Jen]

He's a very important character and I don't think he gets the acclaim he deserves for, frankly, the extraordinary amount of just, like, planning he does. I often think, and I know I don't think you've read this series, but Sarah J. Maas a Throne of Glass series?

[Caroline]

Yes. No, I've only read.

[Jen]

God of Horn and Some Boners, as we call it. There is a. The main character is a sort of assassin and she's always off making plans and doing things and being. And not telling people what she's up to. I think that Sarah de Bass was inspired by Gandalf. I don't think anyone else would say this, but I think Selina Sardothian and another character, just Gandalf, but in the body of a hot blonde woman, which.

[Caroline]

We need to see. We've always needed that.

[Jen]

We need Gandalf.

[Caroline]

We do need Gandalf.

[Jen]

And also when he becomes Gandalf the White.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And when Pippin and Merry are brought to him and they think it's Samaran and it's like, no, no, it's your friend Gandalf.

[Jen]

It's your friend. And the weird thing about him, I guess, is his story arc is not as clear beginning, middle and end as some other people's. But he's so important that without him, Lord of the Rings wouldn't happen.

[Caroline]

And it's not. He does. He really does contain multitudes. I mean, the whole bit of like. I mean, to go back to the Shire in the beginning of the Fellowship and everything when. I mean, first of all, when we open on just like the music and Frodo reading a book on a tree, immediate bawling my eyes out, it's just like. I'm just like, this little guy does not know what's gonna happen to him.

[Jen]

Oh, there's little, like tootie horns, little woodwind instruments.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And then when just Gandalf comes through on the wagon, he's like.

[Jen]

And then he's like, all the fireworks.

[Caroline]

Off the back of the kids. It's so gorgeous. And it's just so gorgeous. And he's Just. And then there's. He's like, oh, he's like the local. If you didn't know anything about series. He's a local friendly wizard who's here for the celebrations or whatever. And then like when he goes off on Bilbo, he's like, do not mistake me for a conjurer. And you're like, fuck, I'm not trying to rob you. I'm trying to help you. Something I say to my dog every day. I try and throw a tennis ball for her, but she won't give me the tennis ball.

[Jen]

I'm not trying to rob you. I think what also is so fantastic about his story, and his story does take place over literally millennia because he's an immortal being of light who has a ring of power. And you see him in every single Lord of the Rings.

[Caroline]

Really?

[Jen]

Yeah. Including the Rings of Power. Is that despite the fact that he basically has to not only live through, but be significant in dealing with the great crises that face Middle Earth every single time they come up. Like, every time Sauron comes to town, Gandalf's like, well, guess it's my time to go and fight that. And yet he never loses the joy in the simple things.

[Caroline]

That's so true.

[Jen]

He's still able. And I think that's something that we can all learn as people. Like, we live in a very difficult part of history, a very dark and unpleasant part. And it can be very easy to just be like. To be constantly in that panic mode of just like, everything is awful and all I can do is think about how terrible everything is. And I think Gandalf also tells us that sometimes, like, it is, but you still need to take a moment to like, have a little party of food with your friends and be like, there are still joys to be found here. There is still nourishment.

[Caroline]

Yes. Can I make a recommendation? You've probably seen this movie already, but the Only Lovers Left Alive.

[Jen]

I've not seen this movie.

[Caroline]

So it is a vampire movie about two vampires who've been. One of them is Tilda Swinton. I can't remember who one is, but they've been alive forever. One of them lives in Detroit and is just sort of like, getting his blood from the vet or whatever and, like, just sort of living a miserable life. And the other is Tilda Winton and she's traveling the world and, like, she can read a book by placing her hand on it or whatever.

[Jen]

Oh, great way to live.

[Caroline]

You would love. Actually do you know, I think we should cover it for this podcast.

[Jen]

Let's do it.

[Caroline]

The Only Lovers Left alive. Great. And it's my favorite, like, vampire story because it's not about being a vampire. It is about the choices you make about immortality and therefore, the choices, like, the kind of thing, like, if you can, like, watch millennia pass and watch all these sort of, like, people live and die, and people only get dumber and stupider and more violent as far as you can see. It's like, what approach do you take? And the Tilda Swinton character is very much like, people are magnificent and this is gorgeous and, like, I love every day. And he's a bit like, well, what's the fucking point? Kind of thing.

[Jen]

And, yes, there's still beauty there for those who choose to see it. And Gandalf's able to in a way that other characters are not. Saruman.

[Caroline]

Yes. A bad manager.

[Jen]

Bad manager. And just a bad vibe entirely.

[Caroline]

Number six, we've got Arwen. Finally a woman in the mix. Finally an elf woman.

[Jen]

All of two, I mean, and I. We will. There are only two women's storylines that we're following here. We're not following Galadriel, because I don't think she has one. I love her.

[Caroline]

I fucking forgot about Galadriel.

[Jen]

She doesn't have a storyline. She just.

[Caroline]

No, she's a character, but she's not a storyline.

[Jen]

She and Rosie and she. Love the spider just exists as, like, elements of other people's stories. And in fact, Galadriel does get her own story, Rings of Power, so well done to her. She's great. Arwen.

[Caroline]

Sorry, before we move on from Galadriel, she has one of my favorite lines in the whole franchise, which is.

[Jen]

I mean, she has some phenomenal ones.

[Caroline]

Yeah, there was the whole.

[Jen]

No, I will go into the west and remain Galadriel. I mean, she's amazing.

[Caroline]

Every time somebody offers me something that's like, you know, could be kind of glamorous, but it's actually, like, against my principles. Like, whenever someone, like, offers me an ad spot for a company I don't believe in, or I think that, like, is actively making the world worse. But I would get five grand if I didn't ask. I just go, no, I will go into the west and remain Galadriel.

[Jen]

It is the pure test of self.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Another great manager, but in her. In her twilight years.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

She looks back and she's like, I've done good things and I shan't be changing now.

[Caroline]

But Arwen, who is not Galadriel, she's.

[Jen]

Not her storyline is basically she's a girl with a very overbearing father and a secret naughty lover. Although she is like 3,000 years old at this point. So it's sort of the weird dynamic with Elrond there. And I just. I think she's got. She's sort of about what we're all fighting for. She's the other Shire in this. The Shire is like one of the things we're trying to protect. But I think Arwen's decision to forsake her entire species immortal grace and stay in the world again has that energy of Gandalf being like, things are really shit here. But there is still love. There is still something I care about more than I care about living forever. And I think her storyline is so quiet and primarily, I think as a young person and indeed now you engage with it through the fact that she's got fabulous costumes and the best makeup anyone's ever had in film and some.

[Caroline]

Truly horrible silver jewelry.

[Jen]

I think Lord of the Rings made silver jewelry happen for about 10 years there.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

Ornate silver elf.

[Caroline]

It's back again. But.

[Jen]

Oh, fantastic.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Well, let's not get involved.

[Caroline]

No, I hate silver tuning.

[Jen]

I just think her storyline, there's not a huge amount to say about it but I think it does give a kind of a beautiful sort of like, kind of tender, eerie note to Lord of the Rings where you're reminded that it's not just like the little hobbits and the kind of common folk, the people of the Earth who are here. It's like everybody is involved in this fight and she's the only elf who's prepared to. Apart from Legolas, I suppose, who's prepared to get involved and be like, no, I'm hitching my wagon to mortal man and to a future where I will fade and die, but at least I will have known something important on my time here.

[Caroline]

Totally. And it's about like, as you say, she's another counter Shire kind of point. She is of like, the Shire is the world that we're fighting to protect and the world that Arwen's going to join. We have to sort of make it good enough for her.

[Jen]

Yes. You know, and she does. And she just, like. She doesn't have a lot of screen time. She also does have another fabulous line. If you want him, come and clean him.

[Caroline]

One of the coolest moments in cinema.

[Jen]

Just like.

[Caroline]

It's just so. Something we talked about in the Phantom of the Opera episode was about, like, how you just can't understate the value of a great fucking image. And, like, not everything has to make sense. It's just like the fact that she kind of comes out of nowhere and like. Oh.

[Jen]

It's just when she arrives and it's the first time you've seen a woman in, like, two hours and you're just.

[Caroline]

Like, who the fuck is this?

[Jen]

What?

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just the most beautiful.

[Jen]

And I think. Yeah. What was also interesting about her and actually Galadriel, is you don't get a lot of elf in Lord of the Rings. Despite the fact that they're a huge part of Lord of the Rings as the mythology. You really get mostly Legolas.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

And the guy who comes to Helm's Deep. And that's like the male elves. And what we mostly get from the male elves is they're good at archery and they can stand on snow, which makes me think.

[Caroline]

And they metabolise drink in a weird way.

[Jen]

Yes. I mean.

[Caroline]

Feel a tingling in my finger.

[Jen]

Exactly. They metabolize drink. They are weirdly light for men who are good at fighting. But you don't really get a sense of magic from Legolas. You don't get a sense of magic from Helm's Deep Battle but you do from Galadriel and Arwen. And they, I think, exist to have that kind of sense the almost. Almost vanishing sense of the supernatural you get in Lord of the Rings. For a magical franchise, there is very little in the way of magical creatures. But Arwen gives magic. I don't know why she doesn't do any of it, but something about her, you're like, oh, I understand elves. You understand, through her and Galadriel, I think, what elves are the sort of sylvan forest creatures in a way that is much more powerful than if they'd kept the songs in. Which is how it happens in the books.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

You're like, these people love to sing and they don't do so much of that here. But they do love to lounge on bed, have leaves blow past them.

[Caroline]

They are. They have no fucking banter. That is.

[Jen]

They don't do anything.

[Caroline]

I don't. I love the elves in battle. I love what the elves stand for in a way. Even though they kind of stand for nothing in a sense. And that's kind of their thing. But, like, when I. When it's like more than three sentences exchanged with an elf, I'm like, can we move on?

[Jen]

Yeah. Look, they're not.

[Caroline]

No banter.

[Jen]

They're not the most charismatic and dynamic of the. Of the races in Middle Earth. Apart from Elrond's eyebrows, which, of course, deserve a mention of their own as a separate character. He's doing a lot with those things.

[Caroline]

You can really see why the Dwarves hate the elves. Because they're just like, oh, 100%. There's no fucking banter.

[Jen]

Like you. Really.

[Caroline]

And the Dwarves are all banter.

[Jen]

Oh, my God. Yeah. If you were, you would loathe those people.

[Caroline]

Yeah, totally.

[Jen]

Joyless. Joyless people. They're the kind of people who say, nothing tastes as good as skinny feels, you know, that's what the Elves are to me.

[Caroline]

Yes, it's joyous. It is joyless.

[Jen]

They are joyless people.

[Caroline]

And I think that is, like. That is community. Peter Jackson communicates that, like, very much as Tolkien wanted it to be. Like, he. I never finished Fellowship of the Ring. I got a good way to put through it. And then it just was too many songs and anything.

[Jen]

Too much Tom Bombadil.

[Caroline]

Tom laughing at Tom Bombadil.

[Jen]

God, he's gone.

[Caroline]

Fucking hell. Thank God he's gone.

[Jen]

He's in Rings of Power.

[Caroline]

But he does talk about, like. Oh, yeah, the elves, they're not really interested in sex. They sort of, like, think it's a better idea to sort of work on a chair for 50 years than fuck anyone. Like, Ah, right.

[Jen]

Yeah, they are.

[Caroline]

Okay. They're fuckless. I get it.

[Jen]

Like, Tolkien loved them, but you can see why they were dying out. You know what I mean? If you're not gonna fucking, you're just gonna make chairs all the time.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And great rope.

[Jen]

Fantastic. They make some great stuff, those guys.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But.

[Jen]

Yeah, so Arwen, I enjoy her, but she's only sitting halfway down. I think she's a necessary part of the.

[Caroline]

They kind of are, the Swedes, aren't they? They're like. They make stuff. There's not a lot of bands.

[Jen]

They also, of course, I think Arwen also, speaking of Gondor, our least favorite storyline. She is important to Aragorn.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And I think humanizes him in a way because he's a sexy man who fancies two women.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

We need her for Aragorn to really care about him.

[Caroline]

See, if this were my list and it isn't my list, I would have Arwen a bit lower because I don't care about that love story, really. Because it's like, when you. I just find it really hard to believe in a love story where it's like. And it's fated and it is, and they know that it is. And it's like, yeah, but, like, do they have little jokes, you know.

[Jen]

Oh, no. I always take it as. Because we're only seeing them kind of prancing around, but I just assume there's a great backstory there. There's a whole rom com.

[Caroline]

I don't.

[Jen]

I don't believe it. I think they have a nice time. I think she likes some because he fucks. And I think she doesn't get that from the elves.

[Caroline]

I get it. But I just. If I'm gonna believe in a couple, I need to see them sort of being playful with each other. And there's just. And I get there's heavy stuff happening, but it's all just so Lebanon's. True that it loses me, but that's a taste thing.

[Jen]

Listen, do you know what? I'll take that from you.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Jen]

And maybe I would bump it down now.

[Caroline]

That's fine. We can't deny the power of Arwen. But number five, we're still kind of talking about same thing. Really. Number five, you have Legolas and Gimli.

[Jen]

Legolas and Gimli. Now, I loved Legolas and Gimli when I first saw them because the story is basically love across the barricades.

[Caroline]

It is. It is love across the two people.

[Jen]

Who hate one another. And by the end, they don't. It's very charming. It's very. It is a more believable love story, in some ways perhaps, than Aragorn and Arwen, because it is enemies to lovers.

[Caroline]

It really is.

[Jen]

It's the beginning of that trope.

[Caroline]

And you don't even need to know anything about, like, oh, historic things between Dwarves and elves. It's like, no. We think you're short and tacky. You think that we're tall and boring.

[Jen]

It is so obvious that they would hate one another. There is no need to explain it. You look at a Dwarf and an elf and you're like, they would never be friends.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's almost like football teams or whatever. It's just like, you know, it's. No, it's.

[Jen]

They're not going to, mate.

[Caroline]

They're not coming. Of course not. Fucking Chelsea and Liverpool. Absolutely not.

[Jen]

No, completely. But what they also provide is a wonderful comic relief.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Because otherwise Merry and Pippin would have to carry that whole thing. We need it from them. We need it. We need it big time. Legolas also does do a very important.

[Caroline]

Role, which is saying, what's happening?

[Jen]

He's the translator.

[Caroline]

Yes. So tell me more about this.

[Jen]

So the thing about Legolas is that in terms of narrative, for the wider plot, he Just exists to explain to people what is happening. When too fancy and flattering flowery language has been used.

[Caroline]

He then just generally by Aragorn.

[Jen]

Generally someone says something like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, blah, blah. And then Legolas goes, a diversion. Or he goes, blood has been spilled this night. And it's just like. It's like there's a caption at the bottom of the screen to be like, in case you missed it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Really diverse because it is quite a complex narrative. And I think he's just there sometimes as a character to be like, ah, this is what's happening. And I think he does. I think Orlando Bloom does that job very well.

[Caroline]

And, like, do you feel quite cynical about it once you've noticed that? Yes. But also, it's like you kind of gotta wait. These were like Boxing Day family films.

[Jen]

It's like some people were really hungover. Some people probably slept through parts of it.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. You need that.

[Jen]

You need someone. You can be like, what's happened? Legolas will tell me. Ah. Okay.

[Caroline]

I realized that recently when we were interviewing Sally Phillips for the Bridget Jones movie, where I was like, oh, like rewatching Bridget Jones. Like, Shazar is the Legolas of the thing.

[Jen]

She's the Legolas of the thing. She's just like, this is what's happening. Let me put it in plain words for you.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly. There's been all these fucking hints and stuff, but does he ever actually suck his fucking tongue down your fucking throat? No, not once. See, if you've gone to the loo and you've come back, Shazzo's here to explain what's going on.

[Jen]

She's like, that's what's happening. And Legolas is doing that for us.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I like him very much. And I just. I love the story of the two of them.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

The tossing of the door.

[Caroline]

We dwarves are natural sprinters. Gimli is just. All the rizz of the Fellowship is coming from Gimli.

[Jen]

Gimli is so spectacular.

[Caroline]

I feel like we didn't. As a. As a storyline. The Fellowship as concept deserves to be a storyline because, like, the fact that I think maybe it's more of a mood than a storyline, because it only.

[Jen]

Lasts for about an hour and a half.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I mean, obviously it lasts a bit longer in their time.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And it's. Yeah. So by the end of the first movie, they're like, okay. Turns out having Frodo around us with the Ring is turning us all to psychopaths. So we all have to go our separate ways. But there's another bit that always makes me cry where it's like, oh, I guess. I guess the little dream of the Fellowship is sort of broken and dead. And I guess there's. Guess we're gonna go back to being like a highly individualistic society and only caring about ourselves and waiting for dad. And then like, Aragorn is just like, no, like he said, there are two hobbits out there and they're still alive and we need to fight for them because we will not, like, give them up. And it's so moving to me the.

[Jen]

Way she is sobbing.

[Caroline]

I know, I know. What's the exciting.

[Jen]

But it's like for Frodo, I don't listen. Yeah, I can't remember the exact quote. Is it about buying them time? I think, isn't it? Or something?

[Caroline]

No, there's basically just like, listen, Merry and Pippin have been captured. And, like. So it's like our initial quest of getting this ring to Mordor, we've had to abandon it. And that fucking sucks. But we've grown to love each other so much that we are a brethren now. And it's like, they are.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And they couldn't do that without Gimli and Legolas.

[Caroline]

No, we can't. Sorry. I'm getting very upset and we're running out of time.

[Jen]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

We've got till 11:45. So we got them.

[Jen]

We better get climbing the rankings because.

[Caroline]

I do think this is the most important thing about Lord of the Rings and we. Why I love it so much and why I've come to it later in life. Because I didn't really watch it all in full till I was about 30. Which is that, like, I think the message to Lord of the Rings is that you are never as alone as you think you are. You know what I mean? Like, this entire franchise is filled with these moments where it's like, oh, we're. But now our friends are here. And it's like in big ways and in small ways, it's like, I thought I was. But now my friend is here.

[Jen]

At least my friend's here. And.

[Caroline]

Yeah, and the friends could be an entire army of elves or whatever.

[Jen]

Or just like that moment when it goes like, there used to be an alliance between men and elves. We come to honor that alliance. Ah, gets me. And the bit where, like, Legolas and Ghibli are like, well, it's not so bad to die fighting side by side with a dwarf. What about a friend?

[Caroline]

What about A friend or being like, if you light the beacons, they will come. You know, that moment where they light the beacons is so important.

[Jen]

That's the thing. There is like, look, it's a very. It's on the surface, very masculine movie. A lot of men in it, a lot of fighting, but just very human. Just a people movie. It's a movie about being people.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Like, I'm glad that men watch it because I think it should remind them to have good friends, give them a hug once in a while.

[Caroline]

And I also will say, I think that, like, we came, we went through a moment where identifying queer subtext in movies was very hot kind of thing. And there's real value in that because for so long there were like, you just couldn't put in gay dynamics into movies or it wouldn't pass censors for all these different reasons. And it just wasn't there. And I appreciate that people do read queer narratives into various parts of the Fellowship, and I get that. But I also think that we shouldn't over emphasize sort of queer subtext and ignore friend subtext, which is that like. Like the very, very deep human bonds, that men just conform with each other, that we, like, as everyone keeps talking about, we've lost a bit kind of.

[Jen]

It's almost like it's become so alien in film that we're like, well, I guess they must be gay about to kiss because they seem very comfortable with one another. And it's like. Like, no, they can be friends.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly. They can just be friends who will die for each other.

[Jen]

They can be friends and still be friends. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Caroline]

All permutations can exist. Exactly.

[Jen]

Gay and friends, you can do both.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. I think watching Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring, when you're young, the word that's underlined is ring. And when you're old, the word that's underlined is fellowship. Do you know what I mean?

[Jen]

Yes, yes, I do.

[Caroline]

We got a motor. Number four is Eowyn, which is preposterously high for Eowyn. Can't believe you ranked her higher than, like, us and Gimli.

[Jen]

It's fucked. Sorry, I just. This is the. I was saying I was 15, 16 years old when I saw these films, and I think now, 20 years on, we're much more used to feminism. Yes, it is much more.

[Caroline]

But she was really holding up for.

[Jen]

She was really doing some work back then. And I also speak as. And I reckon a lot of your listeners would be this as well. As a longtime fan of Tamora Pierce.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

Which is basically the story of a girl who's like, fuck this, I don't like embroidery. I want to go and do fighting.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

And that is Eowyn's story. So there's clearly like an element of me just being like, I love this tale of a woman being like, no, I'm not keen on this life that's been set out for me. I'm gonna pursue something else. And she does it with like, frankly against a lot of pressure. She's also being disappointed by an 87 year old man who does not love her back.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

Which is such a sad moment. And she's just there just like, why don't you just like bind up some wounds and maybe make a stew? And she's like, no, protect the women.

[Caroline]

And children in the fucking cellar or whatever.

[Jen]

I want to go to war. And she does and she kills the Witch King of Angmart.

[Caroline]

That's not nothing.

[Jen]

Again, like right now, if a film came out this year and it was like, oh, no man can slay me. And then someone went, I am no man and stabbed it in the mask face, you'd be like, oh, it's a bit on the nose. But 20 years ago that was. I literally was like, woo. In the cinema. I think the whole cinema was like, wow, she is not a man. That's Eowyn.

[Caroline]

Let's go.

[Jen]

I know it's really important and I just think she's part of a long tradition or maybe even the earlier tradition of fantasy and adventure stories that involve a girl dressing as a boy and going on a fabulous caper.

[Caroline]

And I think what's really important as well is that like what's so funny about the Eowyn storyline is that she's one of the people of Rohan and they're the famous horse people. But there's like a. And the whole thing's not like, no, Eowyn, you can't write a battle. Right. Well, you're a woman. And then it was later revealed to me by you that all of the Rohan warriors are women.

[Jen]

It's one of my favorite behind the scenes things is that obviously when they were filming Lord of the Rings, the people who were here in, they needed people who had their own horses who could ride and would be fine and kind of comfortable doing quite difficult stunts. And famously most horse girls are women.

[Caroline]

So most horse girls are women.

[Jen]

So a huge proportion of the like cast of the Rohirrim is just women in beards. And there's some great behind the scenes footage of Just like what looked like from a distance, kind of like old wizened men. And then they're just like, hello, but with a kiwi accent. Hello.

[Caroline]

Yep.

[Jen]

No, we're just going for a little ride and I think it's fantastic.

[Caroline]

That is fantastic. I love that.

[Jen]

It's almost as good as Bill the Pony having two actors. Bill the Pony. I mean, there's a lot of horses in this, but Bill the Pony.

[Caroline]

Oh my God. When they say goodbye to Bill the Pony, it's so important. When they say goodbye to Bill the Pony.

[Jen]

Terrible moment when they say goodbye to Bill the Pony.

[Caroline]

Apart from the salt. That is the last bit of the shire leaving them, you know, and it's like, oh, there's. It's a real thing to the audience. Like, there's gonna be no more pints.

[Jen]

There's no. There will be no more pints. Misfortune.

[Caroline]

There's not gonna be a lot of japes from here on out, guys. Just warning you. Build a Pony is cleared off and.

[Jen]

He gets back and. Yeah, Build a Pony. But he. For the scenes where they couldn't take an actual pony, like the one up the mountain, they just had two women in a horse suit.

[Caroline]

Like a proper pantomime horse suit.

[Jen]

Like literally a really good pantomime horse.

[Caroline]

Suit doing clip clops through the snow.

[Jen]

Every now and then. You know, Instagram will serve me a video of Bill the Pony's horse people. And I watch it every time in full.

[Caroline]

So good.

[Jen]

Also, the one about the Rohirrimbeen women. Love that, that. So, yeah, Eowyn, I know that she's a rogue one, but like 15, 16 year old me, that was a very important storyline to have in a film which is really lacking in female representation.

[Caroline]

I get it.

[Jen]

And strong depictions. But I completely, completely agree that if it came out now, I would not give two.

[Caroline]

That's the thing. I just feel like you've seen a lot of kind of warrior girls who are gorgeous kind of thing. And maybe it's a symptom of me having coming to this franchise quite late in life. I was just like, yeah, okay, all right.

[Jen]

Yeah. But if you think of her as an early. An early warrior girl.

[Caroline]

Warrior girl, yeah.

[Jen]

And I say as someone for whom that was a really important trope in terms of my own beloved fantasy stories. I was just really happy to see her there.

[Caroline]

While we're on the subject of behind the scenes footage, I do think that like Lord of the Rings has among the most satisfying sort of. I mean, there's. So you'll never come to the end of behind the scenes footage. There will always be more on YouTube ready for you to.

[Jen]

Some of it is as iconic as the actual films. Like, do you wear wigs? Will you wear wigs? It's just made its way into the cultural lexicon.

[Caroline]

Totally. Because I think that what's so exciting about that and very moving about that is that it's like, oh, there wasn't. There was a kind of a fellowship happening behind the scenes that was like. And it's also. It's like, that would be the best.

[Jen]

Two years of your life if you were in Lord of the Rings.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, no phones. And I'm in Lord of the Rings. Can you imagine?

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

Obsessed. But it's also just like, oh, they were on their own quest to do this impossible thing, which was to make this enormous fantasy epic that has never. Nothing like it. That's never been done before. It was its own walk to Mount Doom. And it's just. That's so exciting to me.

[Jen]

I just again, whenever I see the little behind the scenes or the interviews with the cast, I will never get bored of it. I've probably seen them. I haven't seen them all.

[Caroline]

Oh. Watching the Mary and Pippen interviews of talking about, like, one of them how, oh, I saw Orlando at the airport and it was my birthday and we had a champagne and then we landed in LA and it was my birthday again and we had some more champagne. I was like brothers.

[Jen]

The fact that Elijah Wood is basically blind without his glasses.

[Caroline]

The fact that they all have tattoos except for Gimli for some reason.

[Jen]

The fact that he was allergic to his own prosthetics. Gimli and so spent the whole time just bathed in, like, emollients because he was having to wear such heavy prosthetics. I mean, there's so much. I know so much about the making of this film. Film.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I would like to see a film that is a fictional story of the making of Lord of the Rings. I would want. I want to see that film. I want to tell all.

[Caroline]

I would adore it.

[Jen]

Biography. I want it all.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Peter.

[Caroline]

I bet. Fucking. Because Peter Jackson restored all that. Get back fucking footage or whatever. The Beatles. I bet he's sitting on a mountain that he's gonna release a cinematic release, like a documentary.

[Jen]

Some delicious yum yums.

[Caroline]

We're running out of time. We gotta go. So we got it for the cause. We need to have proper time for the top three.

[Jen]

Are we only on the top three?

[Caroline]

It's on the top three. Now number three, the Ents.

[Jen]

I love the ends.

[Caroline]

You don't need to explain this. They're fucking amazing. They're unbelievable.

[Jen]

Come on. Like, they deserve that place. I'm not going to say anymore. I just think they're trees that walk. They go to war. They take down the bad manager.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

They have some of the most fantastic lines in the film.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Such as?

[Jen]

Makes no sense to me, but then again, you are very small and walking south always feels like going downhill somehow. And the bit where they just do the introduction of their names for like three hours, and then they're like, yeah, we've just said hi.

[Caroline]

I just think they're so good.

[Jen]

They would have been so easy to cut out.

[Caroline]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Jen]

And yet Peter Jackson went, no, they are important.

[Caroline]

And at the time, I remember there being a huge criticism of being like, fucking hell. We're watching Merry and Pippin on the. On the Ents backs for a whole movie. Are you serious?

[Jen]

I love them. And I just. Whenever they come on screen, I'm like, yay.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

They make me feel so happy when.

[Caroline]

They revealed that they lost the Entwives, which every single time I go on a Google rabbit hole about, who are the Entwives?

[Jen]

They're the kind of fruit trees.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Yeah. The fact that there was basically just this kind of. The women were like, ah, we're just gonna walk out. It might be the whole end of our species, but we are done with these.

[Caroline]

We're done with these guys. Cause apparently the Entwives believe that man and. And nature can live in harmony. And the ants do not believe.

[Jen]

So the ants are like cultivated trees and the ants are like wild trees.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I love the Ents, and I put them at number three, and I make no apologies for it. I'm not even gonna justify it. The Ents are number three storyline in Lord of the Rings.

[Caroline]

If you know, you know.

[Jen]

If you know. And if you don't, you're wrong.

[Caroline]

Well, it's good because I'm. Number two intersects heavily with the Ents, which is Merry and Pippin. And we've spoken a lot about them already.

[Jen]

We have. And, like, how could they not be number two?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Well, I suppose you would probably say they should be number one.

[Caroline]

I would say they should be number.

[Jen]

One, but I don't say.

[Caroline]

I would put. My list would be very simple. My list would be number one. All hobby Hobbits.

[Jen]

Yes. You love Hobbits.

[Caroline]

I love Hobbits. And I think what I love about, you know, I mean, the One thing we haven't spoken about. This is why I'm so happy to be doing this podcast in a girl way. Because, like, if we were two boys, I think there'd be a lot of talking about World War I in this podcast.

[Jen]

We know it happened.

[Caroline]

We know it happened, and we know Tolkien was there.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

That's great.

[Jen]

Anyway, imagine tiny people.

[Caroline]

I do think, and Tolkien did say this himself in his lifetime time, that, like, he's kind of slightly annoyed by the overestimation of war on his literature now. Obviously, like, he was there. He had a son that was in World War II. He himself was in World War I.

[Jen]

He did write a book about war.

[Caroline]

He did work about. Yeah, but I. I just read in the introduction that he. In the 70s that he wrote to Fellowship, he was like, listen, people are kind of always. They sort of. They draw too many parallels, essentially.

[Jen]

Okay, I see.

[Caroline]

Which I can get how that would be annoying.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But I do think what's so powerful about Marian, Pippin and the hobbits in general is that, like all the men in Lord of the Rings, as in the mortal men, the human people, they are in a war, but they are in a war, in a position mostly of nobility. They are generals, essentially, and they are royal people and all that kind of thing.

[Jen]

They've been trained for it. They're all warriors from birth who've been taught how to do this.

[Caroline]

So in that sense, they're the least relatable people in the entire plot because they're royal people. Generally, you can't really relate to their struggle. But, like, what Merry and Pippin represent is, like, the vast majority of people who ever went to war. Ever.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Which are just like nobodies from towns.

[Jen]

They're like, this will be fun. We stole some vegetables. I guess we're going on a big adventure. Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, the horror.

[Jen]

And you go with them like, they are your eyes into the film. More so than Frodo and Sam are. They are the kind of. The bit that you go in with and you feel like you're very small and you're like, oh, my God. This huge world that I don't know and I never realized was there.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And they just. Again, sometimes they have a lovely time.

[Caroline]

So. Yeah.

[Jen]

Which, again, is probably.

[Caroline]

Sometimes they just sit around and get stoned and have a laugh. But, like, also, it's like, yeah. They kind of went on the adventure because they were promised adventure and they thought it would be a laugh. They are there completely by mistake. Like, Sam is Appointed there by Gandalf, Frodo is the chosen one, where they are there for no reason.

[Jen]

They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And they got caught up in it. And that is exactly how warm that.

[Caroline]

War happens to people. And because of the way that we sort of, like, position war as adventure to young men, so they will go to war like they were sold a pack of lies. In some way or another. They're very representative of the average experience of war. And then they're just brutalized by it, but they remain themselves. And that is such a huge victory in itself.

[Jen]

I once worked on a pitch for some of the military recruitment advertising, and I remember finding a tweet that said, do you ever think it's weird that, like, the juxtaposition between the adverts for signing up for the military, which is all banana boats, and then, like, the cenotaph.

[Caroline]

What do you mean?

[Jen]

Like the war memorials. If you're advertising joining the navy or the army, it's all like, have a great time.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Any kind of skill you can think of. We've got something in the Army. Skydiving. Do you love Facebook? You might love radar.

[Jen]

And then. Then every November, it's like, poppies.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Fields on fields of poppies. And you're like, there's a really weird difference between what. Yeah. What you're sold and then what you actually experience.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And they go through that. They go through that. Well, that tweet was right. And then I was like, yeah, maybe those adverts should be more intense. I didn't work on them in the end, but, yeah.

[Caroline]

God, that. Those. Those adverts are disturbing. They are, because they're so effective. Because, like, every time you're sitting in the cinema and they put on a Join the army ad, you're like, oh, what's this film? This looks good. And then you're like, oh, it's an ad for me or my children or my friends.

[Jen]

Well, as someone from a massively military family, of course, I'm always just like, yes, of course. Nope. No, no, no, no. I know what that's about.

[Caroline]

I don't like that at all.

[Jen]

And I shan't be partaking. But, yeah, Merry and Pippa. And again, just like, the friendship between them.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And the friendships they create along the way and the fact they just go back and they're like, all right, home we go.

[Caroline]

And also, like, they are again, to sort of the parallels between them and real people, which I think Hobbits are more like real people. Than any other people in the series.

[Jen]

Hobbits are quite childlike, I suppose.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Because they're like, what? I mean, I know the hobbits are like 50. The weird thing about. About Tolkien lore is that all these hobbits are 50 years old. They are like, Frodo is 50 when he leaves her, as per the books and so. And the lads, they're all around the same age, the same school year, but they feel like 18, 19, 20. Right.

[Jen]

They get treated by like, children quite.

[Caroline]

Often by the characters of their child.

[Jen]

Size because they're so small. And that sense of kind of like, yeah, you want to protect the juniors, even if they are 50.

[Caroline]

Fly, you fools.

[Jen]

Fly, you fools. Merry and Pippin are. Yeah. I would watch a film that was just Merry and Pippen's story.

[Caroline]

But the thing is, you wouldn't. I mean, you would because you love Lord of the Rings, the Middle Earth and everything. But it's like. I think that the beauty of this film is that, like, I wouldn't watch a movie really based on any of them, like, if it divorced from the Middle Earth ness of it all. Of the Lord of the Rings of it all or whatever. If it was just like, here's a movie's come out with two really small guys. They're kind of Stoners, but, you know.

[Jen]

They'Re probably the only characters apart from maybe Gandalf. In fact, the only characters who are sort of present in all the storylines. Yeah, apart from, of course, Frodo.

[Caroline]

But, like, the war could not be won without them. Yes.

[Jen]

They become so opposite important to the. To the. To the. The winning of the war.

[Caroline]

So it's like. So they get the Ents on side, which is the most, really the most important thing. And the Ents kill Samaran. And that is like a thing that tips the balance. And that is the thing. The tipping of balances is such an important thing in anything like this. Right.

[Jen]

Does not Gandalf talk about that at some point?

[Caroline]

Yeah, he literally says, like, Mary and Pippin have a huge part to play in this.

[Jen]

And even these small, even the smallest things can take the balance. And they do. They change these things.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And again, that's people.

[Jen]

That's people.

[Caroline]

And like, that's very hard to decide of at the moment.

[Jen]

It is, yeah. I think we were talking about this the other day. This is, as a film, like some fantasy is quite kind of like, exploratory and about kind of just pulling things apart and going like, ugh, isn't this awful? Like the Hunger Games for example, is an incredibly incisive commentary on, like, the way the world is going. And some are. I think Lord of the Rings is almost restorative. It's trying to go, like, even in the midst of so much chaos and horror and things that are inexplicable and you can't really get your head around why stuff is happening the actions of individuals still can matter and still can help push us back into a path of hope and of potentially solace. And I think that's why this film has stood the test of time and probably why we love it is that there is something comforting there even if it is just comforting fiction which is, like, all hope. You know, hope isn't lost until it's actually done.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. And we're almost done.

[Jen]

We are almost done.

[Caroline]

We've got one left.

[Jen]

And you don't agree with me on this.

[Caroline]

I'm just interested. And why this is number one. It's Rohan again.

[Jen]

I think this, for me, is partly just the thing of my young reaction to the film. I just. I love the Rohirrim. I love Rohan because they are. This is a story of a kingdom that's basically. It's had the shittest time. Its king is like. Like, half turned to stone. Gondor has abandoned them.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Everyone's left them on their own.

[Caroline]

Why has Gondor abandoned them?

[Jen]

Because I think Denethor sucks.

[Caroline]

Right? Sure.

[Jen]

Like, they've been so. They. They have just been. They're like this angry little kingdom that feels like they've been completely left behind and that no one cares about them. And, like, their prince has just died and they feel like they're looking at the end of their whole civilization. And they turn from being this quite, like, angry, alienated nation to being like the little kingdom that could. Yeah. Like that for me. The ride of the Rohirrim at the end of the third film. Like, ride now. Ride for ruin and the new dawn. Is that right? I think it's the new day is like, again, it gets me every time because you just think about how far they come from being this, like, isolated thing on a. Like a plateau mountain in the middle of a plain to turning the tide of battle when without them everything would have failed. And I think. I think they're very important.

[Caroline]

They are important.

[Jen]

Again, it's a bit like the Merry and Pippin thing. It's like, even if you think you've been abandoned by all the people and when Gondor calls for aid and Rohan will answer, you can't.

[Caroline]

That for me so powerful.

[Jen]

Of the two kings of men like Gondor, Most. Least interesting storyline, Rohan. Very interesting storyline to me.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Because that is a story of, like, a people in a way. Every other storyline we talked about is the story of an individual's journey. This is a story of, like, a group that somehow managed to pull themselves out of basically, a tailspin into terminal decline and be like, no, we can still be noble and we can still get this right, America, please, be more Rohan and less Gondor, if you're listening. But, like, you can do it. It can be turned. Can get out of this. And I just think the horses are great also.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Horses. I'm. Aragorn speaks in Elvish to the horse.

[Jen]

When Aragorn speaks in Elvish to the horse. The fact that I also. A bit of Anglo Saxon in there. If you are a little Anglo Saxon geek, a little bit of Old English.

[Caroline]

It all feels very Celtic, doesn't it?

[Jen]

Well, it's literally. It's literally Anglo Saxon. They speak. They say, like, well, hasoo or something. And they. And the wearer's gone. The horse and the rider. It's from a poem called the Wanderer. Super lame. That I know that. You know, who else knew that? Tolkien.

[Caroline]

You guys know the same story because he taught it.

[Jen]

That was his subject. But, yeah, I just think they're very wonderful.

[Caroline]

And Helm's Deep, the battle for Helm's Deep, there is no Game of Thrones without the battle for Helm's Deep.

[Jen]

There's so much missing from, like, just all of culture without Helms Deep.

[Caroline]

It's really true, because the thing, you know, in the remainder of the series where I'm gonna be talking to all kinds of people, you a lot, but also other, like, fantasy writers and things, we're gonna be talking about, like, a lot of the sort of the. The fantasy storytelling that preceded this. So, like, your princess brides, your labyrinths, all that kind of stuff, and they're all amazing. And, like, the thing about Lord of the Rings is that it destroyed them because they made them all look silly and dumb. The second Lord of the Rings came with this enormous budget, this enormous stake, these enormous battle scenes. Everything else looked kind of stupid because everything else was being shot for quite a small amount of money on, like, some Eastern European country or an Irish backlot or whatever of just, like, people, 10 people kind of charging up to a moat kind of thing. And Lord of the Rings sort of destroyed that entire genre, which is sad because, like, it means that we don't get very Many stories like this that are made on a small scale anymore, it has to be a huge franchise. It has to be be like stinking of money for it to get made. Which means that smaller stories don't get made in fantasy storytelling. But it also, like, so that's the negatives of Lord of the Rings actually of its existence, but the positives are that like, oh, wow. We really taught the world that like these stories about made up people and made up races and whatever can be so important and so impactful and like the battle for Helm's Deep, every single second of it feels so crucial. You never glaze over, you never zone out. It is so long and you were so invested.

[Jen]

Yes. And even as someone who generally does glaze over massively when there's a war scene, like, yeah, it's. Yes, there's fighting, but you care about every single moment.

[Caroline]

Exactly. Because you invested so much in all these people who you're following throughout this battle.

[Jen]

And like it's so perfectly choreographed and you really do feel a sense of depth that you. I remember the first time I saw the film, I didn't know if they won the Battle of Helmstead. You really feel like they are going to lose.

[Caroline]

That is like, that is.

[Jen]

It's really against the odds. Like sometimes, you know, you read fantasy or like Romantasy or whatever, you watch and you're like, well, I know who's gonna win Lord of the Rings. You kind of are like, no, it does feel like they are up against some pretty, pretty punchy odds here.

[Caroline]

In the same way that you can watch Titanic over and over again and still wish that like they just swerve the bird this time. You watch Lord of the Rings and me still, every time I'm like, like the odds are really stacked against them. Like, it really feels quite impossible to win this.

[Jen]

How are you gonna win this?

[Caroline]

Every time it kind of cuts to like Samaran's army and there's the multitudes of them and the Eliphyn cavalry and all these people that he's recruiting to fight for him. You're like, they're fucked. How are they gonna do this?

[Jen]

How are they gonna get. How are they gonna get to Mordor? How are they gonna keep on? And the fact that also that fundamentally all of those war scenes, the Gondors and the Rohans and the Ents, all of that just exist to serve. Buying time for two little hobbits making their way to a mountain again. It's just there's something there around. So much of fantasy is about These huge battle scenes and wars are won or lost on a battlefield. But in Lord of the Rings, they actually aren't. They are literally diversions the whole time. They are just buying time. They are just constantly trying to make enough space for someone to finish a really big walk. And that is like a piece of just like Chef's Kiss storytelling. They're all of that two little guys. It's just a big, like. It's just kind of keeping. Was it keeping Sauron's eye looking to the west?

[Caroline]

Yes. Love it.

[Jen]

I just, you know, I could probably do an entire series just on Lord of the Rings.

[Caroline]

Maybe you can come after Rings of Power or something. We're spoiling a lot of episodes in this. We're queuing up a lot of episodes in this one episode alone.

[Jen]

So, hey, listen, whenever you want me, I'll be living very close to you.

[Caroline]

Yay.

[Jen]

But thank you for letting me come and discuss Lord of the Rings. Rings.

[Caroline]

This has been. Oh, my God.

[Jen]

I think I'm quite. I'm.

[Caroline]

I'm levitating.

[Jen]

I'm so shocked that we managed to get through all 10 of those story lines given.

[Caroline]

I know.

[Jen]

That's. That's more than there were in the ERAS tour. And that was nearly three hours.

[Caroline]

Maybe it's good when we're in a courting booth and not sitting on my.

[Jen]

Unless people like tapping their watches at us. We're not just like. And hey, what about this tiny moment?

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. We've literally made it. We're only two minutes over time. Good for us.

[Jen]

We all get a gold star. And maybe some breakfast.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Okay. Bye, guys. See you next time.

[Jen]

Breakfast.

[Caroline]

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