Sentimental in the City: RIP And Just Like That

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Sentimental in the City: RIP And Just Like That
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Dolly Alderton
Release Date: August 14, 2025

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Introduction and Context

In the final episode of the "Sentimental in the City" miniseries, host Caroline O'Donoghue welcomes renowned writer and podcast personality Dolly Alderton. The episode marks a significant moment for the podcast, transitioning from its origins as a niche book and "Sex and the City" fan show to a broader cultural discourse platform.

Humanitarian Appeal and Personal Stories

Early in the episode, Caroline shifts the conversation to a heartfelt appeal for donations to support individuals in Gaza amid ongoing conflict. She shares poignant stories of three individuals—Abood, Haytham Haitham, and Nada—highlighting their struggles and resilience.

Notable Quote:

Caroline (00:33): "Anything that you donate today... you will make the most immeasurable difference instantly to someone's life."

These narratives underscore the podcast's commitment to addressing serious global issues, emphasizing direct support over traditional charitable avenues due to access challenges.

Discussion on "Sex and the City" Adaptation

Transitioning from humanitarian concerns, Caroline and Dolly delve into their focal topic: the "Sex and the City" adaptation, particularly the "RIP And Just Like That" series.

Adaptation Process and Challenges

They explore the complexities of adapting beloved source material, acknowledging the fierce protectiveness of fans while striving to infuse fresh perspectives.

Notable Quote:

Kristin Davis (07:11): "We put the bunting out for you. It's a reunion and I love seeing you here."

Dolly shares insights from conversations with industry insiders, including the intricate balance between staying true to original narratives and introducing contemporary themes.

Character Development and Production Critique

A significant portion of the discussion critiques the adaptation's character arcs and production choices. They examine Carrie's transformation over thirty years, noting a shift towards materialism and impatience.

Notable Quote:

Dolly Alderton (28:12): "She can't stand that fake wall."

The hosts highlight production flaws such as inconsistent lighting, awkward editing, and mismatched musical selections, which they argue detract from the storytelling quality.

Fan Reactions and Cultural Impact

Caroline and Dolly assess fan responses to the adaptation, recognizing a divide between longtime enthusiasts and newcomers. They discuss how fan expectations shape the reception of new content and the challenges creators face in meeting these diverse desires.

Notable Quote:

Kristin Davis (15:16): "We do not have to just tell ourselves that things in this country always been bad and so therefore they always have to be bad."

Friendship and Personal Reflections

Interwoven with their critique, Caroline and Dolly reflect on their personal friendship, drawing parallels between their bond and the dynamics portrayed in "Sex and the City." They discuss the evolution of their relationship, the impact of busy lives, and the enduring nature of their connection.

Notable Quote:

Kristin Davis (89:54): "You and I are the magic. There's no one else who can talk as fluently and balance, you know, cynicism and passion and fairness and kindness and silliness when talking about culture."

What Worked: Appreciated Elements

The hosts compile a list of aspects from the adaptation they found successful, focusing on specific characters and storylines that resonated positively.

• Seema and Adam: Their relationship dynamics provided depth and relatability.

  Quote:

  Kristin Davis (63:27): "Loved Seema."

• Character Interactions: Episodes featuring meaningful dialogues and authentic connections were highlighted as strong points.

  Quote:

  Dolly Alderton (129:00): "It was just a bit of fun."

Commentary on Abandoned Storylines

Conversely, Caroline and Dolly critique various storylines that were introduced but never fully developed or resolved, leading to a sense of incompleteness.

• Carrie's Instagram Episode: Introduced but not explored further.

  Quote:

  Kristin Davis (121:27): "That went nowhere."

• Harry's Cancer Storyline: Briefly touched upon without substantial development.

  Quote:

  Kristin Davis (116:17): "I really liked it."

Closing Thoughts on Cultural Consumption

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts ponder the broader implications of cultural consumption and critique, reflecting on how audiences engage with and react to media they love or criticize. They emphasize the importance of understanding personal connections to cultural artifacts and the varying impacts these connections can have.

Notable Quote:

Dolly Alderton (129:54): "We are just data points and buying things."

Final Reflections and Farewell

In their heartfelt conclusion, Caroline and Dolly celebrate their enduring friendship, expressing gratitude for the meaningful conversations and shared passions that have defined their collaboration.

Notable Quote:

Kristin Davis (132:03): "There's no one else who can talk as fluently and balance... you know, cynicism and passion and fairness and kindness and silliness when talking about culture."

They acknowledge the podcast's growth and transformation, looking forward to future endeavors while cherishing the moments that have brought them closer.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Caroline]

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[Dolly Alderton]

Yep.

[Caroline]

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[Dolly Alderton]

Well hello everyone and welcome to the final episode of Sentimental in the City, a podcast miniseries we started about Sex the city back in 2020 and co stars our beautiful guest Dolly Alderton, who hasn't been on basically any podcast in a long time. So you're going to get lots of updates about what she's been up to, working on the Pride and Prejudice remake and living with her beautiful cat Goldie. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this episode is probably going to be the most download episode of Sentimental Garbage this year. And by the way, I love that. I love that like people care so much about this thing that we started so long ago. I know that many Sentimental Garbage listeners are here for the wide breadth of topics that we cover, but I'm also totally and 100% appreciative of the people who got involved for Sex and the City and really only come back for Sex and the City. We welcome you back to your hometown. We put the bunting out for you. It's a reunion and I love seeing you here. But if you're one of the many people who has probably listened to Sentimental in the City many times and sort of thought to yourself, God, I wish there was some way of giving back. And like Sentimental Garbage has never had a Patreon. We don't have a, you know, regular merch line or anything. So if, if you would like to find some way to pay it forward for the amount of hours you've enjoyed Sentimental in the City, I would absolutely love it and I know so would Dolly if you would don to some of the GoFundMes I'm about to highlight of some of the people living in Gaza right now trying to survive this war and trying to get through this famine on a day to day subsistence level. Now I know lots of people are quite uncomfortable with the idea of donating to a GoFundMe rather than a charity and I totally get that. And I have worked with charities throughout this war. I've worked with War Child and Choose love and. And for the Ukraine war as well. This has always been an anti war podcast. Let me be clear. But as it gets harder and harder to get aid into Gaza and harder and harder for charities to access Gaza, for me, it has made the most sense to try and support people on the ground trying to buy the food and feed their families that already exist in the country. It is not a fair or perfect system, but right now it is the only real system we have within a deeply, deeply horrifying sit. So all these people I'm about to mention, they are people I've been speaking to for many months and who have sent me verifying videos, images and voice notes. And I can say with complete confidence and as much confidence I can give as a non professional, non charity worker, just a girl with an iPhone are real people. Okay, so the first person I spoke to was abood. Aboud is 19, and I really have to credit him. He's such a young guy, but he is the person who sort of really made me realize, just through the force of his own career charisma, that, like, oh, you know, there's more I can do than feel bad for people. I first met Abood when his little brother Mohammed was struck by some shrapnel from a nearby exploding building. And he was crowdfunding for his brother's surgery, which we managed to help him do. And we've been in contact ever since. The second person I'd like to talk about is Haytham Haitham is in his mid-20s, he's married. He has a beautiful wife called Rowan. He had an amazing life before the war, and he has a little girl called Karaz. Rowan is expecting another child, and they're just so devastated that they're having to bring their children up in this horrifying, horrifying, terrifying landscape. Obviously, as a pregnant woman, it's really important that Rowan gets the nutrition that she needs. And that's something I've been helping them out with. The third person I want to speak about is Nada. I really love Nada. She used to live in this beautiful apartment before the war that was bombed within the early weeks. She then was displaced to a camp with her two children and her husband. The camps were, she said, were absolutely terrible. I think we take it for granted that people in Gaza are just living in these 10 cities. Like, we think it's somehow become normal. But she's like, it's hell. It's hell on earth. We have to stand in line for showers every day. My children got all these skin infections because of the lack of sanitation in these places. It's complete hell. It was so bad that she actually went back to her old apartment, which is completely bombed out, and managed to find one room that she could raise her family in. Cooking and sleeping and eating in the same space. Listen, I know this is the kind of thing that you don't come to a podcast like Sentimental garbage for. I know that many of you are involved in charity work and outreach work in your own lives, or you're simply just so exhausted from hearing about this on different news platforms and different social media platforms that you really want this to just be one carved out space where you don't have to think about global atrocity for a minute. And I promise you, you are about to get two hours of that content and you need that content and you deserve that content. But before this was a Sex in the City podcast, before it was a fan podcast, before it was a books podcast, it was a sincerity podcast. I don't do any episode of this podcast I don't feel 100% sincere about. And I sincerely believe that we are not looking at a helpless situation here. We do not have to just tell ourselves that things in this country always been bad and so therefore they always have to be bad. Anything that you donate today, and I expect that at least 100,000 people are going to listen to this podcast, if you all donated a tenner, 20 quid, a fiver, two, whatever, you will make the most immeasurable difference instantly to someone's life. And I know it's not a perfect system, but it's a system we have. And I really hope you can find it in your heart to donate today. I'm going to leave all the details for these GoFundMes in the show notes. I'll also post them on my social media. I hope you can manage to do something. Thank you and enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to Sentimental in the City, the podcast where we're older, wiser, and still slaves to the imaginings of Michael Patrick King. My name is Caroline and I cannot believe we got three seasons and no Trey McDougal cameo. And she's assembling a designer cat tree for shoe. It's Dolly Alderton.

[Kristin Davis]

Hello. Hello. I actually really, really, really do want one of those cat trees.

[Dolly Alderton]

Do you not have something similar for Goldie?

[Kristin Davis]

No. And I've been served on my algo a company that does bespoke cat trees. And the one that I like is like a giant martini glass, you know, like Tita Von Teese Used to strip in. I want one of those for my cat.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yours is the only cat I think that would get away with the sort of like a stripper themed. She's just so sexy and glamorous.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. But also sort of mean and intolerant, like an aging French film star.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's very Pamela Anderson's the Last Show Girl.

[Kristin Davis]

She's extremely that. I love these new mics, by the way. Things have changed since I was on.

[Dolly Alderton]

Things have changed around here.

[Kristin Davis]

We've got one of these mics that's like a teeny tiny pom pom on a little square that makes me feel like a really hot Gen Z girl who's about to tell you where to get the best deep dish pizzas in East London.

[Dolly Alderton]

Exactly. You're about to walk down a New York street with a cold brew and extremely long nails. And like, you're gonna tap your phone being like. So I just had this date.

[Kristin Davis]

It brings a really different vibe.

[Dolly Alderton]

It does. So I've been recording all the podcasts in this way recently, and I think it has changed up the vibe. Yeah, I think it's gonna get a bit roguer over here, actually. I've decided that this podcast is not a side hustle anymore. It is just a hobby. It is a knitting circle. I don't want it to be popular. I don't want to have a celebrity guest ever. I just want to talk to basically the same six friends on the loop forever.

[Kristin Davis]

Every time you and I have done something like that, it ends up being such a enjoyable. I mean, that's how Sentimental in the City began.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, my God. Because this is the last time we're gonna ever be talking about Sex in the City. I think we can finally talk about how we rejected our MBE. Can we talk about it?

[Dolly Alderton]

You're gonna have to really dial people back on. What? Rejecting my MBE.

[Kristin Davis]

Okay, so basically, Caroline and I have this rule that if you reject an obe, that's great and that's really chic and cool, but the minute you make it public or tell anyone about it, it makes it even worse than accepting the obe.

[Dolly Alderton]

You're making it sound like the story you're about to tell is that Kate Middleton loved Sentimental in the City so much, she offered us both obese.

[Kristin Davis]

No. When Sentimental in came out, which was truly just a hobby, like a totally mad. Yeah, well, it was actually just like a way to keep us sane during.

[Dolly Alderton]

Lockdown five years ago now.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. And it became. We got so many offers from mass media we were asked to be put on the front of magazine covers.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was so bizarre.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so bizarre. And we just decided, we were like, no, because the minute that we made it about that, then it wouldn't be. Some of the magic would go. It wouldn't be just this fun thing.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah. So this has always been my.

[Kristin Davis]

And I wanted to talk about it on the podcast and you said no. That's like saying we rejected an OBE. And anyway, I've now just told everyone.

[Dolly Alderton]

About the OBEs we rejected. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

What were you gonna say?

[Dolly Alderton]

Well, this has always been. My belief about podcasting in general is that it's like one of the few art forms in which there are no metrics really available to the public. Like, if you wanna see how famous a podcast is, the only real metric you have is how many reviews people have left. Maybe an Apple podcast. And even then that's generally only a metric of how pissed off people are rather than the amount. And so I think what makes it such an intimate art form is first of all, I think you're like a silent person in a three way conversation. Yeah. But second of all that, like, you don't know how many other people are listening. So it's like it adds to the intimacy if you don't know how big or how small the podcast is. And if it was on the COVID of like Stylist, it would make it less special because it was about you and me and the freaks.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, you're so right.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

You really don't know its impact in the world. Actually, when you're listening to a podcast, it is one of the magical things. I can't believe how obsessed I used to be and how wound up I used to get by the itunes reviews when I was making the high low. Because occasionally I'll just out of interest, like the old podcast. Podcast for me will be interested. I'll be like listening to a podcast I listen to a lot. And I'll just look at the most recent reviews. I saw one recently for the rest is entertainment. And someone had given it one star because they loved the podcast. But Richard Osmond uses the phrase by and large too much.

[Dolly Alderton]

That is so funny.

[Kristin Davis]

Imagine it's such an innocuous phrase. Imagine being so upset about it that it makes you switch off.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. By and large, by and large.

[Kristin Davis]

He does say it a lot. Now that I've listened to it, he does say it a lot. But we all have one of those.

[Dolly Alderton]

God, I'm so glad that nobody has come to me in a Nasty way about that. I mean, people do come for me.

[Kristin Davis]

Post 911 world.

[Dolly Alderton]

Post 911 world. Which I do think I have given a rest on now.

[Kristin Davis]

You haven't said it in ages. Do you know what I'm gonna absolutely go to town on today?

[Dolly Alderton]

What?

[Kristin Davis]

Late stage capitalism.

[Dolly Alderton]

Well, that's what this show is all about, I think.

[Kristin Davis]

But whenever I talk about late stage capitalism, I feel a bit like, do you remember that clip of Gemma Collins when Covid happened? She was like, we gotta keep the economy boosted, everyone. That's how I feel when I talk about late stage capitalism. She was just telling everyone to go shopping.

[Dolly Alderton]

Where's she been lately?

[Kristin Davis]

I don't know.

[Dolly Alderton]

Let's have, like. Cause, like, you haven't been doing a lot of podcasts in general lately.

[Kristin Davis]

No, Absolutely retired now.

[Dolly Alderton]

Big honor to have you here.

[Kristin Davis]

Thank you.

[Dolly Alderton]

Sit next to the dog. What's up? Like, I know what's up, but for the benefit of, like, the thousands of people who are only keeping up with your life via one column a month on Sunday Times and pap shots from Pride and Prejudice. Yeah, what is up?

[Kristin Davis]

So I'm making Pride and Prejudice. We're a couple of weeks into shooting, and yeah, it's. It's actually interesting thinking about. I've been working on it for a year and a half, and it's actually interesting thinking about that show in relation to this show that we're talking about in terms of how people feel about that intellectual property. Because I would say the protectiveness and the fierceness and the passion and how formative it is, particularly for women. There's definitely a connection to be drawn between the Sex and the City franchise and the Jane Austen franchise.

[Dolly Alderton]

I never drew that correlation before, but you're absolutely right in that, like, if you were to, like, take apart the two shows in terms of what they're about, they couldn't be more different. But in terms of that Venn diagram of, like, formative pieces of culture, touchstones, people go back to sort of instructions for womanhood, instruct for marriage, sort of like wish fulfillment in terms of how you as a woman would like to operate in the world. Those two things are just the same fucking Venn diagram. It's a full circle. Like, they're invoked so frequently, they're also invoked so much that it's almost. That it's almost a cliche. And so the people that love the material, the people that love Pride and Prejudice and that, like, what we call on this podcast, Mr. Darcy, American cat lady, like. Or people who have, like, you Know they love, you know, they love Carrie Bradshaw so much they're sort of slightly embarrassed about it and whatever. Like that kind of self flagellating fan behavior of somebody who knows the kind of cultural context their love sits within and is always trying to fight with it. And then that will often kind of bubble up sort of quite negative fan behavior completely.

[Kristin Davis]

That's such a good observation.

[Dolly Alderton]

When what it's actually about is self hate. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It's about inner turmoil, about what this means to them and.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Anger that it means so much and.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes. And how it looks to the outer world and how much it means to them.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, completely. I mean, the thing is, is it's obviously been adapted so many times before, particularly this particular book. So I've spent the last year and a half as well as like, you know, reading and writing and redrafting and researching. I've spent a lot of time reading interviews with the people who have adapted this book before and they all had identical experiences, which has really helped me in terms of, you know, it's kind of gone public in the world in the last couple of months and the reaction has been just completely insane. But I knew that it would be that. You know, I remember there was a great interview with Alison Stedman where she said she'd been announced to play Mrs. Bennet in the 95 Pride and Prejudice, and she was sitting in a local pub at the beginning of filming and this woman was staring at her across the pub and then walked up to her and just said, I hope you know the world will be watching you with bated breath. Which is firstly a mixed metaphor, but.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was like the world will be watching you with bated breath. That even occurred to me. That makes no fucking sense.

[Kristin Davis]

And then I spoke to another person who adapted Austin, who I won't say who it is.

[Dolly Alderton]

So it's Emma Thompson.

[Kristin Davis]

It's someone else. And they gave me a piece of advice where they were like, you know, because I'm very. I really love J Knights and J Knights have really helped me in terms of my research. Like they have these amazing resources online and they've put together these incredible books and you're looking at me. Do you know J Knight? J Knights? Like Jane Austen fans?

[Dolly Alderton]

Jane Wright? I thought you were telling me someone's name.

[Kristin Davis]

No, no, no, sorry, Jay Nights. No, it's not janeights. Although she does sound like an academic. J Knights. So, you know, I do think about the J Knights quite a lot, but I can't make something for the J Knights. Just, you know, you can't make anything for one particular group of people who you worried are going to be cross at you about something. That's like. Everyone learns that when they're making art, that that's the. That's like the worst thing you can do.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

But this person who had worked on Jane Austen before was just like, you know, they do have the books.

[Dolly Alderton]

Exactly.

[Kristin Davis]

And those books can never be altered and they will always be precious and they will always be sanctified and they'll always be safe. So kind of just, you know, let them have the books.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Well, that's something that Nick Hornby has always said as well, is that when he's asked about, like, are you worried that you're. The film adaptations will ruin the books? And he's like, well, you can't ruin the books. They're up there on my shelf. I can see them. And I do think that, like, something that has made the end just like. I have loved the end, just like that sort of moment in culture in general, I've loved. It's like some. One of the smartest things you've ever said on this podcast when we were reviewing the first season, was that it is our snooker tournament. It is not our World cup, it is our snooker tournament. In that, like, it's. You need to have so much prior information to care at all, but the people who care are just so in there with the details and so in there with the specific physics of how things are hitting one another. Yeah. And, like, the joy of, like, just making that kind of small talk with the woman has genuinely made me understand sport and men far better. Like, do you feel that way?

[Kristin Davis]

Do I feel that way? I mean, yeah, I think I do know what you mean, because I think it makes me understand what, like, mass intimacy is.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Like, through a cultural moment. Like that feeling that I get when you know that it's just dropped on a Friday.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I mean, I haven't had that in quite a long time, but I did have that with series one and I do have it now that we're getting to the end of series three. And that feeling of knowing that you will be. You don't have to have, like, a clever opinion, but you will have some sort of thought or feeling which by proxy, will involve you in this incredibly rich and enormous conversation.

[Dolly Alderton]

Totally.

[Kristin Davis]

And like I said, which is like sports.

[Dolly Alderton]

Which is like sports. Yeah. And it's like, I feel like I have this total new lens for understanding sport now because, like, Gav is a Spurs fan. Spurs often Lose. That's their thing. And they're always, like, you know, wrenching defeat from the jaws of victory, like, that's their whole thing. And, like, watching him with this pain, watching him watch the footy with, like, this pained expression of like, come on, come on, it's my team. Just, like, don't make me ashamed of you is exactly how I feel watching this show. It's like, you're my team. You will be my team until I'm dead. There's nothing I can do to change this. Don't make me be ashamed of you.

[Kristin Davis]

That is such a good analogy. And also, weirdly, even though you and I will sit around analyzing and just like that and talking about every way, it's completely bizarre, or we'll sit on our WhatsApp group Monica's ass and dissect every single choice. If I ever hear a man slacking off and just like that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know what you're talking about, mate.

[Kristin Davis]

I lose my lid.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

In the same way that men do when we talk about their team.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah. That kind of thing. Of, like, when girls are just like. I don't see why you're also obsessed with kicking a ball around or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, I would. I get so angry about it when I hear men slagging it off.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. I'm. I even like fellow fans who slag it off in the wrong way. I get annoyed by, like. I will basically only allow criticism for people who are also, like, PhD students in this subject.

[Kristin Davis]

So this is interesting because there's obviously, like, been so many. Every opinion piece that could have been written about the show has already been written. Now that we know that it's ending, what is the opinion piece that. What are the opinion pieces that you're gonna miss the least?

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, my God. Great question. Go on. I know you have a list.

[Kristin Davis]

Well, just like, relating it back to the show I'm working on at the moment. Something that I found. I'm now, like, off social media again because I've barely been on it last year. I dipped my toe back in when the show was announced and it made me instantly insane, so I had to come off again. But an intriguing response that I got, which I just noted with interest, was there were a lot of women who were replying under a picture of the announcement saying, I'm scared.

[Dolly Alderton]

I'm scared, I'm scared.

[Kristin Davis]

And I was like, something. I understand what it is for a piece of culture to completely form the bones of your humour and your political ideals and who you are. I totally get that. But it's like that feeling that those op EDS on and just like that where it was like women who were deeply, personally traumatized.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. By the idea of Miranda cheating or something. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And like what that said about the fact that they at once affiliated themselves with Miranda or indeed that whole show. I just found that like, even me, who's deranged about culture, I found that so weird.

[Dolly Alderton]

Before we move on from this point, can I tell you my favorite thing about the Pride and Prejudice commenters? Yeah. My favorite Instagram commenters on posts about pride. Because my algorithm is like showing me a lot of like not even your page or whatever. Just like people commenting on, you know, cast photos or whatever. Prejudice is people with kind of very like tight lipped sort of society responses, saying things. And like their whole thing is that they want to remain measured, but they're clearly frightened.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, they're crucially frightened.

[Dolly Alderton]

And the message, the comment would be something like, have enjoyed Alderton's work in the past and certainly was among the many to have read Everything I Know about Love. I enjoyed Emma Curran as Diana. So I have good faith for this adaptation though I'll hold my judgment until I see the first episode. It's like, who are you?

[Kristin Davis]

They love to do that.

[Dolly Alderton]

They love that. There's kind of like they are shitting themselves over how frightened they are that you're gonna mess this up.

[Kristin Davis]

Why would anyone be frightened? Why would anyone be frightened about us? A six part series of a book.

[Dolly Alderton]

Of a book written in 18.

[Kristin Davis]

It's so funny.

[Dolly Alderton]

I love it.

[Kristin Davis]

Anyway, so that is the commentary that I won't miss on. And just like that, that kind of just like weirdly involved. I just found that really weird. And I also obviously won't miss like, you know, the Telegraph being obsessed with having a non binary character or.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes, yes, Wokipedia as who came up with Wokipedia again?

[Kristin Davis]

I think it was the Sun.

[Dolly Alderton]

The sun. They have a running tally of sort of woke nonsense that they observe in culture. They call their Wokipedia a compendium of PC poppycock. I think all that's actually very funny.

[Kristin Davis]

I think all that there was actually more like that happened every series. Basically. I couldn't believe that happened every series. So I won't miss that at all. I also won't miss like, I won't miss people again. It's just people being so involved, people getting like so upset about the decisions Carrie is making as a single woman in her 50s.

[Dolly Alderton]

I won't miss that something that, like, I was talking to Taffy Berdith for ackner about it and she was saying how she loved it. And she always comes to the show's defense because she believes that is a perfect documentary about how women behave on the Upper west side.

[Kristin Davis]

Really interesting.

[Dolly Alderton]

She was just like, if you looked at any, if you were to eavesdrop on any like, cafe conversation between a group of three or four women in their 50s in New York, one of them's a lesbian, one of them has Vertigo. Yeah. And one of them has some kid on Adderall. A kid on Adderall, exactly. You know what I mean? It's like it, she says, like, this is like, whether people like it or not, this is the reality of what it is for extremely privileged white women in their 50s in New York. This is what they talk about, this is what they, they're on about.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

And I think what was interesting is like the truth of that. Those being the issues of people in like, that's lives versus, like wanting to have a perfect linear journey between the people they were in the 90s and early noughties versus who they have become now. And like, I don't want to sound like we're defending the show to the hilt because like, it is a bizarre, fucked up little show.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally.

[Dolly Alderton]

That I would have, if it gone 10 seasons, I would have watched all of them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And like my experience of having friends for like 15 years or whatever that I see all the time is that like, yeah, sometimes you don't see someone for a while and then you see them again. You're like, oh, wow, you've gotten even weirder. Yeah, you've gotten a bit weirder.

[Kristin Davis]

Like the idea that like, especially from 35 onwards.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

So imagine it. 55.

[Dolly Alderton]

People's quirks get deeper completely. Their little neuroses, their preferences become absolute must haves. Do you know what I mean? People get weird. And like that is kind of the funny thing about human life. It's like they don't. People don't stay on the kind of cultural vanguard. Like the idea that Miranda was supposed to stay this kind of like hard headed, business minded lawyer who's like, you know, whatever. People just get fucking weird. They go in strange directions. Life shapes them. And I didn't always agree with this thing that like, oh, it's like they've been in a time capsule for 20 years or whatever. I think that's something that like people said a lot was like, oh, it's like they haven't. You know what I mean? They've been in like.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, they haven't changed. Freeze.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think they've changed a lot in quite realistic ways actually. Yeah, I think one of. And like some of those ways really bummed me out. Like one of the things that bummed me out the most about this show was Carrie because it was like actually very believable that somebody who was like a single gal, really used to living alone, like really used to sort of having her idiosyncrasies being praised would turn into this kind of fussy millionairess who's.

[Kristin Davis]

So grumpy, by the way.

[Dolly Alderton]

And so grumpy. So intolerant.

[Kristin Davis]

So grumpy and intolerant.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. And just really materialistic kind of thing. Like it makes sense that if you sort of allowed somebody to be that idiosyncratic and made them a famous over it and like whatever and just never challenged them and never questioned them and they were allowed to do whatever the fuck they wanted for 30 years, they would eventually become kind of a spoiled loser.

[Kristin Davis]

And I had to really watch my ageism with the Carrie grumpiness actually because I think that she was always sort of short tempered and a bit unreasonable with her friends.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I don't know, she'd get these like bees in her bonnets about things with her friends. But I think when she was younger it was just seen as her being like a bit spicy.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And actually I had to watch myself because she was like always getting pissed off with Miranda.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Because Miranda's just gotten so chaotic in a way that I really enjoy. And she was always like, oh, whether Miranda's naked in her flat, she's like all jumpy about that. Or whether Miranda gets fingered in her.

[Dolly Alderton]

Kitchen or Miranda lightly takes the piss of like whether she's flirting or not with her neighbor. And she absolutely.

[Kristin Davis]

Miranda has a fucking Coca Cola.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. A Mexican Coke.

[Kristin Davis]

But it's like actually I wonder if. So you just feel because of like stereotypes of middle aged, like grumpy post menopausal middle aged women whether I was just being my, my gaze was much harder on her about that because she wasn't running around in heels like as the kind of 35 year old just being cute and sort of snappy.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah. Like I thought one of the most interesting things that had happened in all events just like that. I really loved this plot point was it was so at time of recording episode, the penultimate episode has just come out.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

We haven't seen the last One yet. But the episode before last, where she's telling Seema about her connection with Duncan, how she says that, like, no man has ever seen her as anything other than cute and sexy. And to have be with a man who sees her as intellectual equal. There's something. And the kind of the conclusion is, which is like, it feels like the first time anyone's had a conversation in the whole show that felt anything like a Sex and City conversation of like, point, counterpoint, repast, whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

Analysis.

[Dolly Alderton]

Analysis. Exactly. Is like, is, you know, people saying, are we more? Is it more than friends? It's like, would more than friends actually be more? You know, because actually I would lose this, like, connective relationship with a man I've never had before. And that was something. When you and I were doing Sentimental City, we were like, she doesn't like men. She sort of likes. She likes being admired by them and she likes being flirty and petted and petted and like, likes being a little girl or whatever, but doesn't actually like being around them. And it's like, oh, we've met someone who she can finally actually be herself with.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally. And that's what I thought was actually really smart about cutting it in between the Aiden dynamic because she'd go and have her sort of Margaret Thatcher dinners with pipe smoking Duncan. Yeah. Can you imagine if we told ourselves that that was going to be a plot point when we were finishing, like.

[Dolly Alderton]

Not in our wild Margaret Thatcher dinners.

[Kristin Davis]

But when she was doing that and they were like having real discussions, like adult people. And then she'd see Aiden and be like, hey, Mr. Big Guy, how do you have those clauses? Out of bounds, permission to enter. They don'. Have any conversations.

[Dolly Alderton]

Never have never chatted a day in their lives.

[Kristin Davis]

You look like a pinup girl. It's like they. They can talk. Like in. In like play talk.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

For whole scenes.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And they were like that when they were in their mid-30s and they're like that when they're. He's in his 60s and they're still at it.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Which was so interesting when we had it in Virginia when, like, real stuff started getting real. And he would talk to her like a person and she'd be like, oh, I don't like that at all.

[Kristin Davis]

I know.

[Dolly Alderton]

When he be. When she was like, let me go back to the oopy pookie. Do you want to please daddy pookie? Do we do the ookie pookie again? That bit when she was like, I didn't know that Kathy didn't want something about the Adderall or whatever. I didn't know that you didn't want Wyatt to be an Adderall or whatever. And he goes, carrie, not now. And she's like, why Dookie Pookie.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, my God, I loved that episode.

[Dolly Alderton]

I loved that shit, man. It was very. The Family Stone or something. It was so good.

[Kristin Davis]

I just think it's so. It's so interesting that the women that I know. Well, not all the women I know, but so many women I know who had, like, the most perfect and controlled life in their 30s.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, where it was like, they were really type A. They were really tenacious. They had very ambitious. They were. They worked really hard on their careers, and then they bought their perfect flat, they rented their perfect home in their perfect city, and they, like, created this complete Xanadu of, like, everything that they dreamed of in womanhood, I have found. And they've been single for, like, a long time.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It's so often that you find it's those women who then fall in love with someone who just has a complete mess going on in their life. And not in a bad way, but they have, like, kids or a nutty ex wife or they, you know, they're working abroad or they're. Or they've got. There's just like, these huge. It's. It's just always happens to those type of women.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It's always their lives that are blown up with the baggage of falling in love in their late mid, late 30s. So I just found that really interesting. And I. And I feel like there was so many learnings for her in that experience with Aidan that I really enjoyed. Like, even something I found quite interesting was how much more reasonable she was when she was arguing with Aiden.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. And that was the. I remember seeing someone point to online that, like, she had a bigger go at Miranda for eating a banana than she did with Aiden when he slept with his ex wife. Yeah. Which I also found, like, again, if it were a more beautifully crafted show, if there weren't strange DOP decisions, like, strange editing choices, odd music, like, really weird lighting.

[Kristin Davis]

That is the number one note. Oh, my God.

[Dolly Alderton]

I have a whole section on lighting in this document, so I need to get back to that. But, like, I think something I've seen. See a lot is, like, when people are like, ugh, the writers, the writers, the writers. And like, for sure, the writers are part of a thing that you have to blame when a show is. Is not to your taste or whatever. But, like, I think There's a lot in this show that would have sat better and felt better if the production had been better. You know what I mean? There's so many things that, like, happened in classic Sex and City that you could definitely describe verbatim in a kind of like. Yeah, and then she, you know, kicks Samantha out of the bath so that she can have big up and it's like, whatever. Like. Oh, that kind of vibe. Yeah, like that. If it were again, less artfully made in the way that, like, on a cinematography level, everything and just like that feels like a Lifetime movie or feels like a Netflix rom com or something. Just feels like a bunch of people contracted in for a show no one cares that much about or something. Whereas, like, you compare that to the sort of finale episodes in Paris that are just like. To me, that is cinema.

[Kristin Davis]

It is.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's some beautiful images. And like, even any old random scene of Carrie hanging out in her apartment in any scene of Sex and City, it's just got such a balance and a visual gorgeousness to it that just doesn't work in this show. And I feel like if all of those parts were working, the whole thing of Carrie is so trying to keep it together with the Aiden stuff, trying to be respectful of his family, trying to sort of thread every needle she possibly can with that relationship. That the kind of frustration is bubbling over and then pouring onto Miranda, because Miranda at this point is. She's not just her friend, she's her sister. Do you mean it's like that thing, that frustration you can take out on somebody who you know will actually love you forever? As opposed to the conditional love of a man in Virginia who won't come into your flat. So you sell it and go to Gramercy park and he agrees to stay over.

[Kristin Davis]

Sometimes that woman's obsession with flats, buying and selling flats, it's like fucking a place in the sun over here. It's like a daytime property show. She's been in three flats, four flats in three series.

[Dolly Alderton]

Hang on. The classic flat.

[Kristin Davis]

Classic flat that she's, like, psychotically obsessed with.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

And she has to let go. She has to find peace. She has to find peace with moving out.

[Dolly Alderton]

She sort of did.

[Kristin Davis]

No, not in the set.

[Dolly Alderton]

And.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, do you think that's what that was? I think she's gonna buy it back.

[Dolly Alderton]

She can't stand that fake wall.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. I think she's gonna buy it back.

[Dolly Alderton]

No, don't buy it. No, please, Michael, don't make her buy it back.

[Kristin Davis]

They're obsessed with that.

[Dolly Alderton]

They're obsessed with that flat.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes. She was in there. That. And then she was in the really modern one when.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, like where she was cooking her salmon. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And then she went into Che's flat because Agent. Oh. Then she went back into the flat she's like, sexually obsessed with.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. And the flat she shared with Big as well.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, yeah. There was her memories. Well, yeah, that was a whole thing, selling that flat. And then she went into. But then they had to go. Oh, yes, the chef. They had to go to Chase flat because Aiden wouldn't sleep in the.

[Dolly Alderton]

I totally forgot about that.

[Kristin Davis]

And then she got the Gramercy park flat. She thinks too much about flats. She's got to stop moving.

[Dolly Alderton]

Get all.

[Kristin Davis]

We all know what it's like. We all have the fucking fantasy. Right. Move listing that we go on. Even when we've bought a flat, we all do it. But she has to find more meaning in life.

[Dolly Alderton]

She's so flats. She's best friends with her estate agent. That's how. Obsessed with flats.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. She really tells you everything you need to know. And Seema is sort of only casted in into the main group when there's a property crisis.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's so funny. I would love if the last episode was this kind of reveal that, like, Seema's just been a hustling Carrie this whole time because so many conversations. She's like, so you're gonna buy that flat downstairs now? Or I can just like Seema earning a commission every moment of the day.

[Kristin Davis]

Well, this actually leads us on to, I think, one of the smartest things you've ever said in your entire life.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, God. Well, there's so many.

[Kristin Davis]

Which is. Can I just say, I've got a tiny little sleeping dog next to me. This is so nice.

[Dolly Alderton]

Silver's being lovely right now.

[Kristin Davis]

And a glass of champagne next to me. And I'm hungover from dinner with you last night. So this could not be a more perfect situation. What you said was. Was brilliant, as you said everything in this story that. Everything in the. Just like that. Stories that matter are all told through the acquisition or the loss of an item.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. It's so depressing.

[Kristin Davis]

And it's like everything is refracted through items, whether it's like a coffee table, a flat, a dress that Lily doesn't want to wear.

[Dolly Alderton]

Whatever dress that she's gonna wear to go with Duncan to the party. Is she gonna wear the gray suit? Is she gonna wear the Cinderella Vivienne Westwood dress? Like, it's like the Birkin bags. Everything Is communicated through stuff. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Every emotion is refracted and I think through items that you can buy.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And it's really upsetting. And that's when late stage capitalism babes comes in. Don't ask me to explain why the.

[Dolly Alderton]

Thing that keeps coming up. You've said this a couple of times. Jen said it a couple times. And you've both said it with the exact same intention, which is that I truly believe. And just like that will be the show that, like, we study after the fall of civilization and we're back to sort of feudal times. And there's like. There's like a projector that we put on the shed once a week to learn about the other times. Like in the Hunger Games. Like the dark days.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

We will watch and just like that. And study it as like, oh, this what was happening at the end of the world. This is the bread and circuses. This is the Roman Colosseum. This is a fiddling while Rome burns.

[Kristin Davis]

The one that got me the most. I'd love to know the item that finally, finally sent you over the edge.

[Dolly Alderton]

I'll tell you what it was. The table.

[Kristin Davis]

The table was for me.

[Dolly Alderton]

The table.

[Kristin Davis]

Did you see how much that table was on first dibs?

[Dolly Alderton]

What was it?

[Kristin Davis]

I may be wrong. I think it was $6,000.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was manky. It looked like patio furniture that you could buy on B and Q. Do you know what I mean? It looked like definitely the upscale patio furniture.

[Kristin Davis]

It looks like the kind of furniture everyone sits around taking coke around in the dead of February in 2010, telling stories about their childhood trauma.

[Dolly Alderton]

Someone's telling of themselves there.

[Kristin Davis]

I'd say it's a very specific vibe, but that is what that table is.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was the one time I sympathized with Aidan in the whole show where she was like, you know, the table, it's a little bit of you, it's a little bit of me, it's a little bit of sleek, it's a little bit of romantic or whatever. And he just sent me the thumbs up. I was like, okay. Like, like every. There is no storyline just like that that cannot be related back to items and acquisition and buying and selling.

[Kristin Davis]

Because I was thinking about. I was thinking about, like, older episodes of Sex and the City and that. That occasionally was a thing. Like, I think there was a Seema Birkin story. There was a Samantha Jones Birkin story. But actually it would be more about, like. It would be like abstract louds. It would be like. Like Carrie farted at Biggs.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Or the cookie that said I love you.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

This was specifically about buying or selling. Yeah, everything was about buying or selling something.

[Dolly Alderton]

And it is again. We'll all be watching it in the barn after civilization has crashed. But like. And the, the guest lecture I will deliver in the barn to everybody who's finished their day of hoeing.

[Kristin Davis]

I really don't want to be in this barn.

[Dolly Alderton]

We have to be working.

[Kristin Davis]

That way we won't be alive. Surely I can't be in that barn.

[Dolly Alderton]

But would you rather die than be in the barn? Would you rather be like.

[Kristin Davis]

I want to be in the barn learning about lakes.

[Dolly Alderton]

We're gonna be in a subterranean barn where we, after we grow crops in hessian clothing. Yeah. Because the sun has boiled the earth and it's scorched and we're underground farming vertical towers. And I will deliver guest lectures on how we got here through the lens of. I'm just like that. And I will have a high speaking fee in a post capitalist world.

[Kristin Davis]

When you said that, I was like, it really ruined something for me about the whole thing.

[Dolly Alderton]

It has come to this thing of like, if it's teaching us anything about like where we are right now is that like, like it does sometimes feel like every person has been reduced down to sort of data points about what they will and won't buy. Yeah. That is ever. Like we spend so much of our time on our phones just tracking about things that we're going to buy or not buy. And then like we buy, you know, a plug for the TV off Amazon, get advertising for six more plugs and then we get a Sky ad based on that plug. And you know what I mean? It's like endless. Endless thing. And like, like I think it's happened in such a drip, drip way that we've forgotten that it's not normal.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. But it's so normalized now.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. That like we are just like data points and buying things.

[Kristin Davis]

And interestingly, the big change, the big shift culturally between the last series of Sex and the City and just like that, I would say, is social media. Yes. Which says a lot about consumerism.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And about the normalization of like daily acquisition and daily purchasing.

[Dolly Alderton]

Like, I don't know if you've ever dabbled that much on TikTok. I mean, you're very beloved over there.

[Kristin Davis]

I can't get into. I would love to, but it would just swallow my whole life. I can't.

[Dolly Alderton]

They love you over there, mate. Stuff gets put in my.

[Kristin Davis]

Sometimes you send me stuff and it's so Cute.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's really nice. Yeah. But do you still like it? I like it enough. I sort of like, I generally download for like one day a month and then like, have a good three hour go.

[Kristin Davis]

Fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. And it like. Lena Dunham actually explained this really well. She was like, it is a bit like the closest thing that you'll get to having that coming home after school and flicking through all the channels, like flicking through 600 channels kind of thing. That's kind of what on a good day, it's what it feels like. On a bad day, it's. Every single channel is qvc. It's just people selling you useless bollocks all the time. And that's all the show has become. It's just sort of like the top tier qvc. And this is my other thing that I hated is the houses. At one point I was looking at Lisa Todd Wexley family scene, of which there were far too many, and I noticed that, like, her kitchen is this like QVC kitchen where every in the background of one scene, she has this kind of like trio of sort of bread bins that kind of like, you know, a sort of a sugar and, you know, those kind of tin things. And they were all each individually lit with a spotlight. That is crazy.

[Kristin Davis]

Who lives that way? I love that Gavin's just walked in in the background and that's what he walked in on. Our analysis of how a bread bin is lit in this show. I was trying to be quiet. Okay. I thought qvc.

[Dolly Alderton]

It checks out.

[Kristin Davis]

It's a good analogy.

[Dolly Alderton]

Thanks, G. I don't know what the.

[Kristin Davis]

Breadwin means, but it's probably right.

[Dolly Alderton]

Thanks, babe. Love you. You're supporting women.

[Kristin Davis]

I'm supporting women.

[Dolly Alderton]

Babes.

[Kristin Davis]

No, I know. Do you know what made me. My spotlight on the bin moment.

[Dolly Alderton]

Spotlight on the bin was a real, like, hessian sack moment for me. Subterranean civilization. Hessian sack. I'm gonna have a laser pointer on the lip bins.

[Kristin Davis]

There'll be a whole slide on the lip bins. The lip bread bin. For me, that just made me feel so disgusting about being a sentient being in the Western world was when Lisa Todd Wexley rang Charlotte to tell her about her dead dad, who, you know, people then became obsessed with the fact that the dad had apparently already died.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I think is camp and funny.

[Kristin Davis]

But we pay so little respect to, like, the loss of human life over the loss of, say, a dress that Lily wore. Oscar de la Renta dress that Lily wore that they just totally forgot. They would never, ever repeat. A storyline about Lily having two Oscar de la Renta dresses. But they so easily forgot that one of the principal characters had lost a parent already a mere two series ago.

[Dolly Alderton]

But it was when she rang so funny.

[Kristin Davis]

When she rang Charlotte and they were both.

[Dolly Alderton]

I'm sorry, that's so funny. It's so camp.

[Kristin Davis]

She rang Charlotte and they were both. She was like in floods of tears about her dad dying. Her fake dad dying. And they were both in these like identicate walk in wardrobes.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It was such a weird place to have this profound moment in a person's life. Your dad dying. Yeah, Your dad dying. The man who created you dying. This man who she's really close with, this lauded theater director who has formed who she is. The ambition she has as a young woman who was so proud of her that that moment should fall on a sort of cream carpeted where like. Yeah, there was spotlit Louis Vuitton, like 10 Louis Vuitton bags. That's the appropriate place for these two women to be crying about a dead.

[Dolly Alderton]

They're both in their separate walk in.

[Kristin Davis]

Wardrobes that are identical. I found it so sad. I found it hard.

[Dolly Alderton]

I love how everyone has the lip bread bin moment.

[Kristin Davis]

There was just something about them both just faffing around in these stupid wardrobes.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think they made a real mistake over thinking that Lisa Todd Wexley's desk in her wardrobe was aspirational. I found it very sad. Sad.

[Kristin Davis]

I found that sad.

[Dolly Alderton]

Why doesn't she have an office? I know have an office.

[Kristin Davis]

Did you like Lisa Todd Wexley? I actually really did. You hate the husband.

[Dolly Alderton]

I hate the husband. I hate Herbert. I hate this is name.

[Kristin Davis]

Herbert. If you had gun to my head right now, I wouldn't have been able to tell his name.

[Dolly Alderton]

So while I've been had to like get my fix and talking about just like that on the record. So I've been doing a couple of episodes over at the Cinemale.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Which is a really, really fun podcast. And if people need more information after this, please go there.

[Kristin Davis]

I saw a clip of it. It looked really fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was really fun. And yeah. And so I've been sort of really keeping up on character names through that.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh yeah. So I should probably say so. Like I was in with series one, I was in with series two. And then this series, I just. I declared myself out at episode two, which fan bankruptcy. I just couldn't believe that the day at the moment. Finally I think in my head I was just like, like, do you know what? I think I will Find a moment to watch this at some point with a hangover, like many years away. But I had no compulsion to watch it at all, which I've never had before with the show. And so I kind of just said, I sort of gave you the baton and it's just a bit like, you go on without me. And then like you and Monica would occasionally talk about it on the group and I just would not even engage. Just wasn't even interested in what was going on. And then it was announced that it was the last one and then I obviously became obsessed with it again.

[Dolly Alderton]

Of course, of course.

[Kristin Davis]

How did you feel when it was announced?

[Dolly Alderton]

I felt like it was coming because I felt like it was like having watched the series season three episode to episode. It felt like they were wrapping things up. Like, it felt like they were settling the characters. You know, it felt like the Seema and Adam felt kind of for keeps. Miranda and Dolly Wells feel kind of for keeps.

[Kristin Davis]

I hope so.

[Dolly Alderton]

Dolly Wells is so good in this.

[Kristin Davis]

I love her so much.

[Dolly Alderton]

I love her so much. You should hire her.

[Kristin Davis]

I'd love to work with her. I think she's so clever and she makes such interesting choices as an actor over the years.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's so charming in it. And like they, they make sense to me. Like, I think the fans haven't been crazy about it because it's sort of like, it's so funny. It's like people hated J. Diaz because of like the amount of like just freaky little things they would come out with and like just how kind of brusque and unlikable and whatever. And obviously people were upset about the Steve thing, but like, people have been like very muley and mealy mouthed about Darling. Like, yeah, I guess she's fine.

[Kristin Davis]

She's.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think she's gorgeous in this.

[Kristin Davis]

I think they have such a lovely chemistry.

[Dolly Alderton]

They really do. They feel like just two women who really just like are in. They like into each other in an.

[Kristin Davis]

Intellectual way that physically is an intellectual equal. I don't feel the old Margaret Thatcher, pipe smoker and Carrie really are intellectually. I don't think that they.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's not an intellectual thing as such. It's more that the scene I was impressed by and got really excited was actually her being like standing her ground as an author with like an important male author.

[Kristin Davis]

I loved that bit when he was like, I have five best selling books. And she was like, I have seven.

[Dolly Alderton]

And then he's like, mine are 500 page historical biography. And her, she's Like. And the plots were already made up.

[Kristin Davis]

I love you.

[Dolly Alderton]

That sent a shiver down my spine.

[Kristin Davis]

Don't we all have the dream of saying to one of the male editors of the lrb, it's interesting that you think that they were wrapping up, because my theory is I don't think they thought this was the last series.

[Dolly Alderton]

Really?

[Kristin Davis]

Well, let's wait and see how the final episodes.

[Dolly Alderton]

What I thought was really interesting in the episode this week, which was like, how does it end? How does it end for the woman? How does it end for Carrie? This thing of like, Carrie and her and the, like, oh, that big flat. And like, you're all alone in the big flat and whatever. It, like, it really has the air of the epilogue for me.

[Kristin Davis]

Maybe you're right.

[Dolly Alderton]

Everything about it is. And what's gonna happen to Carrie?

[Kristin Davis]

It's weird they would announce it halfway through the series. I thought normally they announce it as the series goes out.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, I guess I felt like it.

[Kristin Davis]

Was a decision off the back of. I think the commentary's been particularly horrendous with this series and they are hemorrhaging viewers, apparently.

[Dolly Alderton]

Really?

[Kristin Davis]

Well, actually, they're not. They, they, they. I think there was a big dip between series one and two, and there's actually only been a fractional dip between two and three.

[Dolly Alderton]

How do you have this information?

[Kristin Davis]

Because I looked it up when I saw it was cancelled because I was so surprised.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I thought that they would match the Sex and the City Life run.

[Dolly Alderton]

Really?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, because we're already halfway through. Yeah, we're halfway through what Sex and the City was. But I thought they'll just get to 6.

[Dolly Alderton]

From a production point of view, it's unbelievably expensive. Like.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, but only because the way they shoot.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Which I think it doesn't have to be shot like that.

[Dolly Alderton]

No. I also, I think the problem with a lot of this as well is that, like, they completely misunderstood why people loved Carrie Bradshaw and why people loved the show or whatever. And like, I remember listening to the writers room podcast, which I remain obsessed with. And like, then.

[Kristin Davis]

Are you still listening to that?

[Dolly Alderton]

Absolutely. I'm still listening to. It's my favorite podcast. I have so many theories on the interpersonal connection. So busy.

[Kristin Davis]

I can't believe you listened to. To that fucking podcast.

[Dolly Alderton]

That little dog. It's a 90 minute walk every day. Go listen to something.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you look forward to listening?

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, I look forward to it. I really look forward to it. Because I do think that man is kind of running a Cult, really? Because it's really fascinating because it's like, generally on that podcast you get, like, Lisa Zyritsky and Michelle Rotenberg, who, like, started on the show when they were in their 20s and are still writing partners. And. And they're just sort of like. You can tell. They're like, yeah, Michael's a bit kooky, but, like, we all have kids in private school.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you know what I mean?

[Dolly Alderton]

That is the vibe. And then there's Samantha Irving, who I'm obsessed with. Obsessed with. Because also, in many ways, she is like, the closest thing to a real Carrie Bradshaw in terms of, like, somebody who is, like, written these memoiric books that have really zeitgeisty. She has this point of view everyone's obsessed with.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Like, she really does emulate that. And when she writes from Carrie's point of view, I think it's always really, really works.

[Kristin Davis]

I always know. And it's the Samantha early episode.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. She's the best at it. She really is. They should have made her showrunner. They should have made Michael Patrick King a consulting producer, and they should have just let Samantha Irby do her thing with this.

[Kristin Davis]

Michael Patrick King to this franchise is like Carrie to that flat.

[Dolly Alderton]

You'll have to go elaborate for me on that one.

[Kristin Davis]

He cannot let go.

[Dolly Alderton]

You know, he cannot let go. But, yeah, I think if she had been the showrunner, because so another thing about it is that, like, she will often argue with them and she will be sort of like, in the context of that sort of four pronged head writers room, and sometimes other writers come in and out as well. She's almost like the Samantha. Samantha Irby is the Samantha. She's the one who's pushing it further. She was like, I wanted Lisa How Wexley to have an affair. I pushed for her having an affair. And the other's like, no, our Lisa wouldn't do that.

[Kristin Davis]

It's like, she so should have had an affair.

[Dolly Alderton]

They're playing with, like. Like these precious, precious dollies they won't take out of their box. And she's just like, let's put the dollies in the mud. And, like, if you would let her put the dollies in the mud, you'd.

[Kristin Davis]

Let her get the. The Barbies and scissor each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much more fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think if she. Yeah, that. I think that would have been the best. I think she would still have made choices that would have pissed people off, but it would have pissed people off in an artistically satisfying way.

[Kristin Davis]

Can I Tell you, the main thing that I would have done differently, I think the thing that this show really, really missed that was part of the magic of Sex and the City structurally. Because I still think a lot of its problem is structure, is having a voiceover and having a theme of the week.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I think it really missed it. And I think what it needed was Carrie either doing a podcast or a column or a memoir or book of essays. And every week it was like, you know, a theme on letting go of something or a theme on, you know, how much sex is a normal sex life in a couple.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, just like they used to with the show. It would just be like.

[Dolly Alderton]

But, like relevant to people at that stage of life and also eternally relevant. And.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, I suppose they would have felt like maybe they didn't have enough that could span all the characters lives because it was so much easier when it was four single women having sex.

[Dolly Alderton]

And then those episodes, we just don't see those people. Yeah, that would be fine. Like, it's fine to have a show with a big cast. It's like White Lotus does it or whatever. But, like, there can just be some episodes where we don't see them, and that's fine. We don't need, like a random comedic plot about, like, a dog getting canceled online.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

That stuff bummed me out so much.

[Kristin Davis]

I hated the dog getting cancelled.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It made me turn against that bulldog in a way that I found disturbing in myself. I just didn't like seeing that bulldog after.

[Dolly Alderton]

I didn't like him either.

[Kristin Davis]

I just found it annoying. And actually, I would say, interestingly, we have a list that we'll get to of the things that worked and didn't work for us. Richard Burton didn't work for me, I think, because you're right, because he was there to serve a gag.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Whereas Shue was shown a degree of respect. And there was like a whimsy about Shue and I. I could have had a whole episode, a silent episode of just shu padding around that Gramercy park flat.

[Dolly Alderton]

Do you not feel there were a lot of like. So I have a whole section in this document just called abandoned storylines.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Stuff they introduced as if it was gonna be a big thing. And then we never heard about it again. I feel like they were all the. And I think actually somebody said this on TikTok, on QVC and like, there was all these episodes where it was sort of teased that shoe was going to be in mortal danger. That never happened. Like, it Was like, shoe got out. Or like shoe near a window.

[Kristin Davis]

Or shoe waiting for. For Shu to escape.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I love shoes so much.

[Dolly Alderton]

Shu is very cute.

[Kristin Davis]

She should always have had a cat. When you see her just like, clip, clopping around her flat in her heels and then she just scoops up this like, fluffy little thing. Do you know what actually makes me really happy about shoe is that for years and years I wanted a cat and I didn't get a cat.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Because I thought it meant something about being a single woman who lived alone, who had a cat. Cat.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Because the cats have such bad pr.

[Dolly Alderton]

They do.

[Kristin Davis]

And then it was actually an ex boyfriend. And I will always thank him for this, who said to me in my early 30s, if you want a cat, just fucking get a cat. If you've always wanted one, who the fuck. Like, it doesn't matter what people think. Just get this thing that's gonna bring you joy.

[Dolly Alderton]

Until you're grateful to that man for saying, get a cat.

[Kristin Davis]

I would never have got a cat if he hadn't told me to get a cat.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think you needed someone to say, you'll still be. I'll still fuck you even if you have a cat.

[Kristin Davis]

100. But then I got. Then I got a cat and I was like, this is the most perfect, attractive single woman's accessory. They are famously clean. They never smell. They are soft and plush like a luxury slipper.

[Dolly Alderton]

They leave them alone for the weekend.

[Kristin Davis]

Leave them alone for the weekend. They don't demand much of your attention that like that. They're so. I don't understand why they're seen as this repellent for a single woman. And that's why I'm really grateful to Shu because actually, I think that she has shown just like what a perfect accompaniment to a woman's life a cat can be.

[Dolly Alderton]

I don't think it's actually the cats themselves that are often the problem. It's the way people talk about their cats that people get icked about, I think.

[Kristin Davis]

In what way?

[Dolly Alderton]

There's something about someone talking about their cat's preferences that feels weird. And I don't know why that is because I feel like if I, you know, I'm not gonna natter onto a stranger at a party about my walk schedule with my dog. But there's something that feels outdoorsy, communal, like outgoing about, like having a dog and being in the world.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

But like being at home fussing over your cat feels.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you know what I mean?

[Dolly Alderton]

It just has a. Like, socially and Conversationally, it has a different ring to it or something.

[Kristin Davis]

I know what you mean. And here's the reason why we so like Sylv is currently curled up next to me like his tiny sleeping piglet. She's so sweet and demonstrative with her affection. You get a moment like that with a cat maybe once a day. Normally when they're just conked out and asleep, not really when they're conscious. Do they want. Want to be? So I think what happens is you have to like, find these moments of connection. You have to analyze the cat and give the cat a character and kind of give all this theory giving the cat a character and you have to give all these theories on why the cat does all the weird cats do, which is basically they're just not that interested in their owners and they don't think about their owners that much, I think so. I think that's why cat people are annoying. Because we're desperately trying to prove that we have the same connections that you have with your dog.

[Dolly Alderton]

That is such a good theory.

[Kristin Davis]

God.

[Dolly Alderton]

Well done on that.

[Kristin Davis]

I am one of those annoying people at a party. I'm the bad pr.

[Dolly Alderton]

You're the bad pr.

[Kristin Davis]

It's the owners. It's the female owners. We're the bad PRs. We need to get fired.

[Dolly Alderton]

We're bad. I'm so glad we finally solved cats on this final. And just like that episode that we're doing.

[Caroline]

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yep.

[Caroline]

Get a new phone on any plan with select phone. Trade in and MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone. Whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

[Kristin Davis]

Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check. Whoa.

[Dolly Alderton]

When did I get here? What do you mean? I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future. It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup.

[Kristin Davis]

Here's your check for that great offer. It is the future.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's.

[Kristin Davis]

It's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind. It's all good.

[Dolly Alderton]

Happens all the time. Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pickup times may vary and fees May apply. Okay, so we have different categories. We have what worked, what did not work, abandoned storylines and what we will miss. Shall we go? What worked first?

[Kristin Davis]

Let's be positive first.

[Dolly Alderton]

Let's be positive first. Okay. Seema worked.

[Kristin Davis]

Loved Seema.

[Dolly Alderton]

Loved Seema. Loved Adam as well. I really love Adam the gardener.

[Kristin Davis]

Who's Adam? Oh, the gardener.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I don't know what it is with this show. When I was looking back today to refresh my memory of all the episodes, particularly of series two, which I would watch a lot when I was just like doing my emails and admin, I would see these names of men and.

[Dolly Alderton]

I just couldn't like the mealy mouth.

[Kristin Davis]

Teacher who is Franklin.

[Dolly Alderton]

Franklin.

[Kristin Davis]

Harry had a massive relationship with someone called Franklin.

[Dolly Alderton]

Was he the podcast producer maybe who they had no chemistry with?

[Kristin Davis]

I think it was that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Right, right, right, right.

[Kristin Davis]

Seema and I do love Adam. I love Adam the gardener. And I also love that he like is sort of gross and disgusting and licks her armpit. And I love, you know, that he loves period sex.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, for sure.

[Kristin Davis]

And she's just the perfect person to be given a man like that. When a woman like that is given a man like that, it's just like manna from heaven.

[Dolly Alderton]

I loved her whole thing of like, she's so gorgeous, she's so funny, she's so likable, but she's really brittle and like has had so many bad experiences that she's like can guard herself off them. It was sort of like Samantha against the power of itself kind of thing. It's like it's sort of like seeming like what if Samantha were a real person?

[Kristin Davis]

Totally.

[Dolly Alderton]

What if the experiences Samantha had actually affected her at all as opposed to things that were just these things she's bringing breeze through. Because like there are many humane things about Samantha in terms of like as the series went on and like how she related to her friends, how she went to a job, her illness, all these different things. But how she related to romance for the vast bulk of the show was not how a human being is.

[Kristin Davis]

No. So unrelated.

[Dolly Alderton]

Somebody was actually like that. They would like they would be in some kind of facility.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, you're totally right. And it was like there was this just soft underbelly to Seema that was just so lovable and she was such a good friend and she is just the most beautiful creature to look at as well. I just find her so compelling as an actor to watch.

[Dolly Alderton]

She's also one of the only friends in the show who isn't scared Of Carrie.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, true.

[Dolly Alderton]

Because Carrie kind of runs that group, like a head girl kind of thing. And she's like, if Carrie's like, you know, being sort of brittle and moody, everyone will be. Be like, okay, okay, bye. Okay. Oh, okay. Whereas like, Sema is like, in that. In the most recent episode about the buying, the flash that Duncan went buying more flats.

[Kristin Davis]

The latest episode of Grand Designs.

[Dolly Alderton]

Where Carrie has this really prickly reaction that's basically like, why is everyone saying that I need to sort of. Of get rid of my big empty home or whatever? And Seema just looks her very dead in the eye, being like, I'm not talking about that Carrie. I'm talking about a business.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's a good moment that it's good. And it's like, I like how she can't really be pushed or can't be cowed. So I think there's something very real about that in that, like, her and Carrie and Charlotte and Miranda do feel like three siblings to me more now, which I think makes sense for three women who've done each other for 30 years and they are not close to their family of origin. And in that family, Carrie's eldest daughter and Miranda's middle daughter and Charlotte's youngest. And it's like everything Carrie does. And Carrie's a bit famous and da, da, da. And like, so she can kind of terrorize them a bit.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

In a way I would have loved to have seen explored. Like, how does like the kind of baked in dynamics of 30 years of friendship actually become sort of toxic in some ways? It's fascinating.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally. Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Like, Seema is a genuine. Just a new friend. Like, this is something that me and Jen say to each other a lot is, you're my friend, not my family kind of thing. Because we kind of. Something we talked about a lot is how we sort of this idea that we need to transcend our friends into this family space because we're like, live in the city we're not living near. Our families of origin can sometimes be this way. We speak about our friends. That's not actually healthy where it's like, you don't. Yes, it's good to, like, take someone's birthday very seriously and make sure you show up for them. But the other side of treating someone like your family is that you can be very callous with their feelings and.

[Kristin Davis]

You bitch about them, about them all.

[Dolly Alderton]

The time and stuff.

[Kristin Davis]

And it's like, oh, well, I love them so much.

[Dolly Alderton]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Kristin Davis]

So. Right.

[Dolly Alderton]

And like, I remember, like, yeah, that's Like a weird mantra that me and Jen have. We're like, you're right, you're one of my best friends. You are not my family. Like I will always treat you with the respect of a friend of like a separate person. You are not this entity that's also me that I get to scratch out when I'm bored completely.

[Kristin Davis]

And it's interesting as well because when you think about, I think that, I think her being a bit famous is such an interesting power dynamic within that group that's not really explored. But she definitely will be one of those friends that you and I sometimes talk about this dynamic where it's like they make you feel like you're the best friend in a rom com.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Where it's like their whole aim of the entire friendship is that one day you're going to leave your job to get in a car and like race through traffic lights so they can chase a guy at an airport.

[Dolly Alderton]

Totally. I remember you and I had this conversation before because obviously as we famously. We both used to be journalists. Even though that's fairly, you know, on the line or like, so you. I know you and I have had the experience before where we will have had to interview a famous person or somebody who's a public profile far outstrips our own or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

And we'll get on with them and then they'll be like, oh, this has been lovely, like we should definitely hang out again. And those relationships, except in the smallest numbers of cases, fizzle out so quickly.

[Kristin Davis]

Always.

[Dolly Alderton]

Because if you meet somebody in the contest context of like, you're the very famous person and I'm the person they sent to interview you. Yeah. Even if you had the best chemistry on planet Earth, it will always be them talking to you like a famous person and you taking notes and you being expected the next time that you meet to like remember everything they said. Whereas, like they don't know my husband's name or my dog's name. Do you mean like it's like that. That is such a genre when you live, when you work in the media in London. That is a genre of friend, of being like, like you are someone who I think is fabulous to go to a party with and like I get to be your little hanger on at a party sometimes. But we're not actually friends in the way that I think of my friends.

[Kristin Davis]

And actually I think those power dynamics that are so delineated and that are so established from the immediate get go when you meet someone, I think they never change Imagine if I was just.

[Dolly Alderton]

Having this chat and they're realizing, I love having this chat so much. And imagine if they gave Samantha Irby the reins and you and I were in the writers room.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, my God, I would love it so much.

[Dolly Alderton]

Wouldn't that be the best ride of our lives?

[Kristin Davis]

It would be so great.

[Dolly Alderton]

The perfect art we would have made with Samantha Irby.

[Kristin Davis]

The problem is, is that there's just too many execs on that show. Every single actor is an exec. Is an exec. I think that would have been difficult.

[Dolly Alderton]

I just realised how sort of exclusive and media you have been this entire conversation. What does that mean to the layperson?

[Kristin Davis]

So if you're an executive producer, that means that you. You are one of the final voices with every creative decision that's made. So that means you have a voice and power when it comes to casting, when it comes to hiring heads of department, like directors or heads of costume or you don't like, oversee budget or anything. You wouldn't be involved in those conversations. But basically anything other than the financial technicalities and the. The. And the tiny minutia of production technicalities, you get to have a substantial say in. And that was like. I think every writer was an exec as well.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, it's really quite mad. Which. Which makes sense why it would end up this kind of mishmash of tone and theme completely.

[Kristin Davis]

Anyway, so we liked Seymour.

[Dolly Alderton]

One on the list. Okay. Anthony.

[Kristin Davis]

I liked Anthony. You didn't like Anthony.

[Dolly Alderton]

Did not like Anthony.

[Kristin Davis]

Tell me why.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay, first of all, I feel like the amount of Anthony that we got in the original Sex and the City was the perfect amount of Anthony in that he was this.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, it was not that much.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, he was a sort of like delicious, strange, sour surprise. Do you know what I mean? And he was the perfect foil for Charlotte because you could. And you could see it, you know what I mean? That like he was this kind of brash, upwardly mobile, Sicilian lifetime New Yorker who had like somehow through just like elbow grease and attitude alone, had become one of the top wedding planners in New York.

[Kristin Davis]

It would make. God. That was his job.

[Dolly Alderton]

That was his job. That's why they know him now. He's a fucking commercial baker with a shilling.

[Kristin Davis]

Why is he running hot fellas?

[Dolly Alderton]

Hey, first of all, the reason I hate this storyline. I hate hot fellas.

[Kristin Davis]

I hate hot fellas.

[Dolly Alderton]

I hate it. Kind of condescending and weird.

[Kristin Davis]

Name a faker brand than Hot Fellows. Even the bakery looked fake. It didn't even look. I couldn't believe that was a real street.

[Dolly Alderton]

The way the writers room talk about that bakery. They're like, we had people who thought it was a real bakery who were tapping on the window asking when we were opening, and I was like, I don't believe you.

[Kristin Davis]

I can't believe you listened to that podcast still.

[Dolly Alderton]

You're gonna as well. I know you are.

[Kristin Davis]

You're one wild and precious life.

[Dolly Alderton]

Sorry. I should be watching nine unedited hours of the Beatles.

[Kristin Davis]

Listening to Michael, a.

[Dolly Alderton]

Retired man, listen to Michael Patrick King.

[Kristin Davis]

Praise himself on his own fake bakery. Yeah, I thought hot feathers was bad. I actually don't like Giuseppe.

[Dolly Alderton]

The thing about Giuseppe is, is that I agree with Paddy Lupone. Like, he's clearly working out some issues about his own parenting. He's 28 years old. He should not be with a guy who's pushing 60. I don't understand why they're in a relationship. I don't understand what Giuseppe is attracted to about Anthony because he's still so broad and comedic a character.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. Like, you don't really see any sincerity at all.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, exactly. And I just. I think he was good as a. As a bitty Von Muffling. Do you know what I mean? I just don't believe.

[Kristin Davis]

Okay, now you're saying all that. I do agree with you. There should have been less. Less of him.

[Dolly Alderton]

Why were they always eating dinner in Charlotte's house?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, there should have been less of him, I think. I love that he was so undomesticated. I think all his storylines had nothing to do with buying houses, family stories, find, you know, finding someone to marry. It was like he was a real taste of old. Sex in the City, I think told.

[Dolly Alderton]

I loved some bits of it. Like, I loved the puppeteer storyline. I thought that was so funny.

[Kristin Davis]

I loved the puppeteer. I really liked it.

[Dolly Alderton]

But, like, I just. Every time I see Giuseppe, I'm just, like, mildly worried for him. I'm like, why are you hanging out with all these old people? You're 28. Stop hanging out with old people.

[Kristin Davis]

Have I talked about the mustard theory?

[Dolly Alderton]

No.

[Kristin Davis]

So when I worked on Maiden Chelsea years and years ago, I worked under this brilliant writer called Darren Little, who's this, like, veteran in the business. He wrote on Soap, still writes on. Is like the head writer for EastEnders now, I think. He was on Corrie for years and years, and he knows a lot about story structure. And he used to say this thing to me about certain characters in a piece that are really sort of eccentric or grotesque. Or funny or esoteric. And he said, the only way you enjoy them is they have to be the mustard. So they're this tiny relish.

[Dolly Alderton]

Little eyedropper on mustard.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes. And they're on the side of the main dish that help the main dish sing.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And it's a very good piece of advice, and I think.

[Dolly Alderton]

Very good.

[Kristin Davis]

I think Anthony should have been the relish and not the main dish.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Okay. What else did we like?

[Dolly Alderton]

Lily.

[Kristin Davis]

You didn't like Lily.

[Dolly Alderton]

I did not like Lily. But you like Lily. What did you like?

[Kristin Davis]

She worked for me. I think she is realistic of people that I know with teenage daughters are dealing with exactly the shit that the Lily storylines get. Like a pansexual ballerina dancer, like, romantic obsession and shifting identity. And I just think that that's, like, realistic drama that Charlotte would have to deal with with a teenage girl. And I think that was good to bring in some realism from that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, I liked her. I liked the actress a lot. Do you know what? Actually, let me rewind it back, because my main issue with Charlotte and Lisa Todd Wexley and their approach to parenting, I found it dystopian. Why? I hated this whole kind of Park Avenue parenting thing. I hated that whole thing of, like, Lisa Todd Wexley, I'm gonna commit the biggest sin of motherhood and put my phone on silence. It's like, your eldest is like 10. Like, you're fine. He's probably in school. It's during the day. You can put your phone on silence.

[Kristin Davis]

Little did she know her second dad died.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's a big day in a woman's life when she loses her second dad. But, like, I feel like the Lisa and Charlotte scenes, they held up this version of motherhood that is completely thankless and boring and depressing and kind of joyless. And joyless. And also creates shit kids like, the way that, like, Charlotte's kids would just kind of mean to her and stuff and, like, be so snappy and dismissive and just like, that's just how it is kind of thing. It's like, I don't like, I'm not a rose tinted glasses person, but that's not how I felt about my parents when I was that age. Do you know what I mean? I still liked talking about books with my mom when I was 16. You know what I mean? We did have snappy fights, but, like, in general, I was pretty aware of her humanity. And I just felt like. I don't know, I feel like I had a lot of moments with my parents in those Ages that were interesting and that I don't like teenage storylines. And I guess because I write YA as well, I do feel extremely protective of teenagers. I have teenagers in my life. Like, I have my nephew and my niece who are both in their teens, and they are, like, some of the most fascinating people I know. I can never predict what take they're gonna have on things.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

And, like, I would love to have seen teenagers are among my favorite demographic of people. And I just thought I saw them reduced to sort of like, beats like a shein delivery or, you know, whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, they never really had a conversation. You're right.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. And, like, I just felt like that whole side of the show held up this, like, completely untenable version of motherhood, where even if you try your best, it's still horrible. And it just sort of bummed me out.

[Kristin Davis]

It didn't look fun at all.

[Dolly Alderton]

Not at all. I thought the Thoroughly Modern Millie stuff was really fun.

[Kristin Davis]

I loved. I loved that I was in tears.

[Dolly Alderton]

With everything I just said. I still love that.

[Kristin Davis]

I know with the whole gang watching Rock.

[Dolly Alderton]

And there's an interesting bookend there as well in that, like, episode one of Anne. Just like, that opens with Lily's piano recital or whatever. Yeah. And then we have. And I just. I was very moved by Charlotte, like, struggling with how gleeful she felt that Rock was presenting female.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, it was really, really good story, I think.

[Dolly Alderton]

Really good story.

[Kristin Davis]

I'm interested to see where that will pay off in the next episode.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. It's weird to have that payoff now. Like, but I think the biggest problem of the whole show in just general is pacing. Right. Is like, introducing what feel like big stories at really, like, towards the end times. Like Brady and is having a baby. You know, like, the baby's having a baby.

[Kristin Davis]

I wish that would go away. That story, really, the way I feel about that story is you've used this metaphor on me before, is when you're trying to get some mushed carrot into a toddler's mouth. That's what Michael Patrick King is doing to me with the. That storyline. I'm just pursing my lips and wincing away from the spoon. I don't want it. I don't want that story.

[Dolly Alderton]

See, I really like Brady. Why?

[Kristin Davis]

Because he's so stroppy. I really.

[Dolly Alderton]

I don't know. I mean, he was very strappy in the most previous episode, the most recent episode, which I kind of get because it's like, you've contacted the mother of my unborn child without Talking to me about that first. Yeah, that should be the thing. Not the fact that she's, you know, I mean, he's managed it, but, like, I think he just seems, like, very grounded. I love the way he is with Joy and her dance. I love the way he was, like, getting into cooking and stuff. I love the way he's like. I just think that Miranda's whole style of parenting is like, a lot more hands off and a lot more real and a lot more down to earth. And I feel like it's created a very real down to earth, earth person. And, like, I feel like it's very charming.

[Kristin Davis]

No, for some reason, I was just not invested in those kids, which is weird because I watched all those women have those kids. So I can't believe. I just don't really care.

[Dolly Alderton]

By the way, this is our list of things that worked. Okay. I'm just. I'm scanning down the things we've already talked about. Something that really worked for me. Carrie's editor. I love Carrie's editor. She is one of the most perfectly observed publishing professionals I've ever seen seen in anything.

[Kristin Davis]

They always do good publishing characters.

[Dolly Alderton]

They do. Yeah. And it's like she always is the right amount of, like, absolutely rimming Carrie's hole. Because that's what you do with your author, is to get them all ged up.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

And then we'll immediately deliver like a massive, like. So here's this fundamental thing about your manuscript. You have to change that also invalidates your whole life.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's so. It's just very.

[Kristin Davis]

And the way she's always slightly squeezing. Carry dry for another thing.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I just think he's so good.

[Dolly Alderton]

She's great. I love her.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, she's a really good character.

[Dolly Alderton]

I guess that could bring us. We could talk more about the book's plots in general. I mean, every. Every joke that you could make about the woman has already been made.

[Kristin Davis]

Why do I like the novel?

[Dolly Alderton]

You are the only person who likes the woman.

[Kristin Davis]

I think it's great.

[Dolly Alderton]

Why?

[Kristin Davis]

Because the first moment when she ended with a VO and I realized it was historical novel, I felt so excited for her. But then I am a writer who's gone from memoir to novels, so I think it's very specific to me. I can see why most people just wouldn't find that. That intriguing or exciting.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think most people's problem with it is not that it's a novel, but that the prose is so strange.

[Kristin Davis]

The prose is weird.

[Dolly Alderton]

And that it's supposed to be this page turning historical epic and that. It's always just these like.

[Kristin Davis]

I think, although I would say the page turning historical epics that have been like, like huge. Particularly when I think about the ones in the 90s, they often are written.

[Dolly Alderton]

A bit like that, what with no named main character.

[Kristin Davis]

Although the reason they didn't give a name.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, I know, I understand.

[Kristin Davis]

Because it would have been so comedic for her to end every episode being like Agnes, Agnes Blackthorn, oldy worldy name. I didn't think the prose was so bad, did you think?

[Dolly Alderton]

No, I think the actual. I mean the main. Obviously it was camp and strange and like that's whatever. But like the thing about the column was it was often campin strange. You know, like that is sort of the wink and the nudge of the column. I think the main actual problem with the woman, apart from how funny and weird it is, is like the function of the voiceover. And the column in the show was about knitting themes together and forming connections where possibly no connection could have been seen before.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. Which is what made it so genius. Genius.

[Dolly Alderton]

Which is amazing. So I was thinking the other day about like the Cock a Doodle Doo episode. Right?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Which is like, it's. There's roosters on the roof so good that. That are keeping her awake. There's chickens on the roof that are keeping her awake. There's Samantha's plot with the very problematic awful plot with the trans sex workers in her building and like this kind of theme of gentrification and. And New York and the meatpacking district and what the meatpacking district is. So you've got your Carrie on the roof, you've got the meatpacking district and all that. You're getting this flavor of New York, even if it's like a problematic flavor. And then you're also getting that moment where Miranda and Carrie are fighting in the vintage clothes shop about like, you know, big. About big and whatever. And you can't go back there. And then the last scene in that thing is like in the story, I think is like because you and me, sweet friend, are like that red wall and she's sitting on the edge of his bed. And they both realize that like. Like we've had this affair. We've hurt people deeply. We've ruined our lives. We need to wake up from the dream. And so it's like the voiceover acts as this beautiful threading of the needle from the high to low, from camp to serious of like this is an episode about wake up calls and we Mean that literally with chickens, we mean it literally. With transx workers, we mean it literally from the, the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And that is what the voiceover was doing. That's what the column was doing. As opposed to the woman, which is just narrating what's already happening and that we can already see through an oldie, oldie voice.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally take it back. You're completely right. And actually what you've just hit on there is the magic we lost.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kristin Davis]

It is those thematic voiceovers in the metaphor. And that was the thing that just made it so good. It just needs to.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, it's magical together and so difficult and satisfying between, you know, 20 to 30 episodes per season for years. And this is actually the main problem with the whole show. I mean we keep saying this is the main problem. There are many main problems. Which is that like Sex and the City was a show that was written by, you know, a group of women who were picked up on a bus every single day. This is my most romantic thing about the show. Picked up on a bus every day, like all in their early 30s or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

All single.

[Dolly Alderton]

All single taken on a bus to Silver Cup Studios, like out in Queens doing a writer's room for however long American writer room gone for I guess 13, 14 weeks sometimes. And then them getting those scripts, taking those scripts, working around the clock with actresses who are giving everything, with creators doing everything with a show that was on the ground in New York every day. It was so much work. It was people who could not have lives outside of it. To the point where when people said, do you guys see each other much outside of work? They went, no, obviously not. Because we have to see the other people we could ever see. Because this is so all encompassing. Yeah. And it was like the full time profession and calling of 300 people probably. Yeah. Whereas. And just like that feels like the part time job of a bunch of retired millionaires.

[Kristin Davis]

That's why they pay the big bucks.

[Dolly Alderton]

They don't pay me that big bucks.

[Kristin Davis]

That's why you get non one star reviews say that you say by and large too much. You're completely right. You're completely right. And it's all the off screen stuff. It's the machinations of how something is made and why something is made and the lives of the people who are making it and the dynamics of the people as a group who are making it. That's the DNA.

[Dolly Alderton]

No one just like that is hungry for anything. No, like. And that sadly, I think hunger is the kernel where good Art comes from. You are desperate to prove something, someone desperate to make the point you want to make, desperate to show the life you can't. You want to live or have to live. And that is where all the most beautiful things have come out of creation and the creative spirit have come from. And no one is hungry or desperate for anything because everyone's rich and famous.

[Kristin Davis]

And that sucks.

[Dolly Alderton]

But, like, I'm glad they tried, you know?

[Kristin Davis]

I'm really glad they tried.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, sorry, I'm a bit pissed now. I feel like I'm really wound up and I'm like, grandstanding you.

[Kristin Davis]

No, that was really good. You did two really good little speeches there.

[Dolly Alderton]

That's why when I'm doing this, the lecture series in the underground bunker in the hessian sack, my speaking fee will be high.

[Kristin Davis]

I'm gonna have a wee and top up our glasses. And then we will find something that works for us about this show.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay. Okay, I'm gonna pause it. I really liked this week's episode, the whole thing with the pies.

[Kristin Davis]

Loved it.

[Dolly Alderton]

Absolutely thought it was so fun.

[Kristin Davis]

So fun and so New York and so old. Sex and the City.

[Dolly Alderton]

Did you think of me? During the plague, this woman bought four pies. Didn't even pick them up.

[Kristin Davis]

Also, it was just so true to Carrie's character, I think.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Like a bit too much generous. Ultimately quite lazy. I just thought it was. I was so. Just tracked so.

[Dolly Alderton]

Well, it's one of those ways where you and Carrie really overlap.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally.

[Dolly Alderton]

So generous and so thoughtful, but ultimately, like, I'm not gonna fuck him.

[Kristin Davis]

A number of times I've just been like, oh, I'm hungover. I'm going to a baby shower. But I guess I'll just, like, go buy a 100 pound hummingbird cake.

[Dolly Alderton]

I actually. Do, you know what can I say something very sentimental. That worked for me this season.

[Kristin Davis]

Go on.

[Dolly Alderton]

Because, like. But for the last year, I'd say you and I have been friends for six years, right? And this last year, I think I've seen. We've seen each other the least as we. Than we ever have. And that is just down to like, busyness, life stuff. Both of us been traveling a lot, all that. And like, it's One of. One of my favorite things about our friendship is that neither one of us ever holds the other person to account or acts like it's a person's problem.

[Kristin Davis]

We have never acts like. And we will never.

[Dolly Alderton]

Never.

[Kristin Davis]

We will never. You are one of my very few people in my life that there will never be an Archie message saying, did you see the above? Just never.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's nice because it says true love. For me, though, it's true love. And, like, the thing of. It's not that you and I are, like, any busier than the average person or whatever. It's just that I think there's a shared thing of, like. Like, we do get very engrossed in stuff.

[Kristin Davis]

Exactly.

[Dolly Alderton]

When we're committed to a project, we're 100%.

[Kristin Davis]

We're obsessives.

[Dolly Alderton]

Neither of love. We love texting when we're in the mood to text and we're on an obsessive sort of, like, internal private joke or we're having a manic high about something that we're both watching or whatever. In general, both of us find, like, the daily texting. How are you? How's life been? Oppressive.

[Kristin Davis]

Can't bear it.

[Dolly Alderton]

We. I think we both think of it as, like, an assault.

[Kristin Davis]

It's awful. I now think that sending someone a message saying happy birthday is the worst way you. It's like, the most horrible thing you can do to someone in the beginning of their next year of their life.

[Dolly Alderton]

Happy birthday.

[Kristin Davis]

Would love to catch up because you're giving them admin.

[Dolly Alderton]

You're giving that. You so are. We're not. Listen, we're not 21 anymore. We don't need the Facebook post on the wall. Do you mean we just. And, like, I. Not. I know not everybody feels this way because I wrote an article about. Or a substack about this about, like, how I hate texting. And I really thought some people rallied with me, but lots of people were like, this has made me understand that, like, not all my friends hate me because they were so bamboozled by it, but. Sorry that that was a long way around of saying both of us have been extremely busy over the last 12 months. I've seen you the least I ever have seen you. And. And while I'm not interested in, like, picking apart, like, whose fault that is or whatever, like, why haven't we made more time for lunch? Yeah. Not interested in that because I know I'm gonna be friends with you forever. And, like, these things come and go. However, there have been days where I've been like, oh, I would love to see darling today. But as I can see from my Find My iPhone, she is in Barbados.

[Kristin Davis]

We're on each other's Find my iPhone.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's very cozy.

[Kristin Davis]

It's the coziest thing ever.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's so nice. I loved, like, tracking you on your way down here. It Was so nice. I know, but there something about Carrie's Gramercy park home. I'm not saying you live in a townhouse mansion.

[Kristin Davis]

Please make that clear.

[Dolly Alderton]

Please make that clear.

[Kristin Davis]

They've all finally got off my fucking back. You live. Don't get them on my back.

[Dolly Alderton]

In a lovely ground floor flat, you have two bedrooms, like in North London. It is luxurious, but is not, you know, unattainable. It's not unattainable, but something about how she styled her flat and like how. And how it looks on the inside and how your flat looks. I don't know what it is. And something about the cat stuff or whatever, it made me sort of feel like I was in your house.

[Kristin Davis]

I love you.

[Dolly Alderton]

Is that weird?

[Kristin Davis]

No.

[Dolly Alderton]

Do you know what I mean, though?

[Kristin Davis]

Statistically, I think what it is is, like Caroline just said something really cute about her flat that we're sitting in right now. He said that sometimes you can pretend that this flat is a studio flat.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah. Because of the way the.

[Kristin Davis]

The layout.

[Dolly Alderton]

The layout of it. The way the bedroom connects to the kitchen and the living room at the same time, it feels like half the flat is a studio flat.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. And you said that you like that because you never had that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. I never lived alone as a single girl.

[Kristin Davis]

No. And there's like. There was something very interesting at the moment where you and I became really close, which was the end of your 20s and the beginning of my 30s, where I was so, so desperate for what you had. All I wanted was a committed partner and to share a home with a man, which I hadn't done at that point. And all you. Not wanted at all, but all you kind of longed for in terms of just like an alternate life that you could never live alongside the life that you live and love was that dream of being a single girl clopping around a little flat.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And I was like in the peak of that when you met me. And I did it for a long time.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. God. Do you know what? I just.

[Kristin Davis]

So I can see why you conflate the.

[Dolly Alderton]

I remember when we first started getting close, and I think we were getting on everyone's nerves about it because we were so up each other's arseholes. I know There was about 18 months to two years where we would not stop talking about the other person.

[Kristin Davis]

It was very me showing off that I had a new boyfriend. That you were the boyfriend.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. I remember when we first. The first, like couple of months of that, when we first started hanging out and I Was like over in your flat a lot and somebody commented like, you're certainly hanging out with Dolly Elderton a lot. What's that about? Or whatever. And I was like, we're fucking. I was like, well, first of all, we're fucking. And second of all, do you know, I was like, it feels really good to have a fair weather friend.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so fair, weathered.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you know what I mean?

[Dolly Alderton]

I never, I. Some part of me thought I was like, I have the best fun with this girl. I feel like we're gonna have like an intense summer and then we'll just sort of not see each other again or whatever. Yeah. Because it was so fun and we were having such a crack together.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

Every hang was until three in the morning. Yeah. And it was, was so, so fun. And I was like, this is like, I haven't met somebody who has this capacity for fun in a long, long time. And like, yeah, it's one of the great joys of my life that it's like somehow the grooves of the shoe have been worn in and now it's like, oh, this is one of my lifers, you know, it's just like when.

[Kristin Davis]

You and I tipped over from doing like every hang would end up being like sitting by the window smoking out with the orange light, lights of the street, Camden street lights, you know, or it would just always. There would always be like some sort of adventure. Even if we were just in a flat, it would still be like some flight of fancy. It would feel like that the night would take. I remember the first time that we had a hang where we just like, I came to yours or you're. You came to mine and we just like got a Domino's or just we got a ramen and I left it. Or you left at like 11 o'.

[Dolly Alderton]

Clock.

[Kristin Davis]

And I remember there was this like amazing feeling of like, not even grief, but like acceptance of like, oh, I guess we're just best friends now. I guess we're just friends now that are just gonna have these low key hang. Like not every hang is gonna be this like spectacular hang.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh my God.

[Kristin Davis]

Some of it will just be ambient company. And I suppose that's like leaving a honeymoon phase. But I suppose that also makes sense. The best, best face.

[Dolly Alderton]

You don't have sex with your boyfriend when he stays over.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, this is so indulgent. But guys, it's been years since we've been on the mics. It's been years. Let us have this.

[Kristin Davis]

We've got to talk about this. I can't think of anything else we've got to talk about.

[Dolly Alderton]

Wait, what do we.

[Kristin Davis]

There are other things we like.

[Dolly Alderton]

We have the Gloria Steinem cameo written down.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, my God, that was amazing.

[Dolly Alderton]

My favorite thing about season two was the grief memoir Loved and Lost. And my great annoyance, the show is that we never found out how Loved and Lost went.

[Kristin Davis]

No.

[Dolly Alderton]

Like, did it sell well? Like, whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

I would love for her to have become, like, the Matt Haig of grief.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

And to suddenly just had, like, so, like the burden of so many. Not. Not saying that. I'm sure Matt Haig doesn't find it a burden, but, you know, when someone ends up becoming a spokesperson for something incredible, incredibly serious, I always think, like, wow, that looks quite heavy. That, like, she would have had, like, a bajillion widows get in touch with her.

[Dolly Alderton]

Exactly. And we never saw that. And like, it was really like, I remember you had a great pitch for this of being like, she does her grief memoir. Then she becomes a kind of like a Brene Brown type always.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, yeah, TED Talk.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, TED talks about grief and whatever. She becomes a sort of figure for this thing and Samantha gets back into touch and it's like, this isn't who you are. You are fabulous. You're not.

[Kristin Davis]

That would have been really good.

[Dolly Alderton]

It would have been so good. Like, I would love. Yeah, I would just love career stuff that felt like it had more stakes attached to it.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. But they're so rich. There isn't exactly.

[Dolly Alderton]

There's too rich. But the thing is, the one time that the grief memoir had stakes attached to it was when she was trying to get Candice Bergen to endorse her book on her newsletter.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so good that I've said it maybe so perfect. They've done.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah. Because it was. It was like Candice Bergens, who's called Enid Frick. Is that the name?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. I love that character.

[Dolly Alderton]

I love her. Always happy to see her. And she's hosting some kind of magazine launch thing and she wants Carrie to be a donor and Gloria Steinem's at it. And, like, there's this whole thing with a dick pic that keeps going around and, like, it's just fabulous because it's this perfect mix of, like, ludicrous and also quite real, but also real in a hyper specific media culture kind of way. And, like, you need to get Candice Perkin to shout out your memoir on her newsletter.

[Kristin Davis]

Honesty. Yeah, it's so via a Gloria Steinem talking circle.

[Dolly Alderton]

Is this where we finally talk about the Gloria Steinem talking circle.

[Kristin Davis]

Have I ever talked to you about it?

[Dolly Alderton]

No, because we actually. So. So around the time that the Gloria Steinem piece came up in season two, which I'm sure most of you have already forgotten, you were invited to a salon of a similar kind with Gloria.

[Kristin Davis]

Steinem at her house.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

I can't believe we've never talked about it.

[Dolly Alderton]

And again, we never talked about it. And then we were about to talk about it last night at dinner and you were like, you know what, let's wait until we're on the podcast.

[Kristin Davis]

So basically I was doing. I've been like flogging my books in America for years and they've never like quite. They never quite took off and then they had a bit of a mo. Everything about Love had this moment because of this girl on TikTok who did me a fucking solid. Whoever that girl is, I need to track her down and I want to take her for lunch and I want to take her to Selfridges and buy her a designer bag because she changed my life. And she made a TikTok of the audiobook of. Of everything I Know about love. Like a 10 second, maybe even less TikTok audio. Put that on a clip. And then that just went crazy viral.

[Dolly Alderton]

And you don't know her name.

[Kristin Davis]

Don't know her name.

[Dolly Alderton]

I don't know how you should know her name.

[Kristin Davis]

I don't know how. I don't even know how I would go on to that audio thing. I know. And then I was in the New York Times bestsellers for a year, having tanked. Absolutely tanked. That first.

[Dolly Alderton]

Unreleased. Yeah, yeah. And I love that so much.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. It's really made me realize why we should just never be proud of ourselves for being Luddites or skeptical of technology. We should always embrace it because it's like. Or just be open to it or interested because it has the power to just change career. I just think it's amazing.

[Dolly Alderton]

But you won't find out her name equally.

[Kristin Davis]

I won't download TikTok and find out. Someone tell me who she is. I want to buy her a three martini lunch. Anyway, so then there was like more interest in my first novel and I had an American tour for the first time and I was asked to go. My book was picked by Jenna Bush, who runs this huge book club on the Today show. And I was asked to go on and go on TV at the same time. Gloria Steinem's people got in touch because they heard I was going to be in New York Promoting the book. And they were like, would you like to come to one of Gloria infamous talking circles that have been going since, like the 70s?

[Dolly Alderton]

Which I guess must have been the inspiration for the episode.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely, because it's a real New York institution. It's like, so you go to her house and it's a group of women sometimes. She used to invite men. I don't think she invites men anymore. And you sit in a circle in her house and you just like, talk.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. I mean, it's the consciousness raising sessions of the 70s, right?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, exactly. So I was like, fuck, yeah. I love Gloria Steinem. My mum brought me up from Gloria Steinem. It would just be such an honour to meet her. And the way it was scheduled was the talking circle was like 2 hours after my segment on the Today show. And you will know about me that you hate tv. I have a chronic fear of tb. I won't take do anything that's on tv.

[Dolly Alderton]

You were asked to do not come down with me. What are you asked to do again? The dancing show. Strictly Dancing.

[Kristin Davis]

It's not us to do that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Dancing ballroom.

[Kristin Davis]

What's it called? Strictly Come Dance. Yeah, well, Daisy Buchanan told me she heard about this. This is one of the many fucking insane things I hear about myself. I was never asked to do that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Were you asked to be in the jungle?

[Kristin Davis]

I was asked to be in the jungle. Pandora. Pandora and I were asked every year to be on the Jungle.

[Dolly Alderton]

So funny. Anyway, I think Pandora would be good in the jungle, actually.

[Kristin Davis]

She'd be great. She's amazing on camera.

[Dolly Alderton]

She looks amazing with no makeup on. And I think she'd eat bugs.

[Kristin Davis]

She would eat bugs. She's really gung ho. She would. People would really fall in love with her. I totally agree. Anyway, so I said, I can't go on the Today show. I just can't do it. There's no way that I can do it. I have a panic attack. I look like Jim Broadbent in a wig on camera. I just can't do it. Please don't make me. And then everyone on my publishing team were just like, this is such an amazing opportunity. You would be so. You have to take this. So I just, like, did everything I could to get myself in a headspace where I could do this, like, two minute segment. But it was one of the scariest. You know, it's like a real phobia. It was a very scary moment for me doing it. I came off camera, my agent was waiting for me and she went, let's go have a Martin. So I had three martinis and I was like vibrating with anxiety. Then I had to get in a cab and goes, glorious.

[Dolly Alderton]

And then what happened?

[Kristin Davis]

I sobered up. The fear of it all, the adrenaline just sobered me up as I walked in. And then we sat in a circle and it was like this amazing group of women. Not that many of us, like six of us. And we just sit with Gloria Stein for two hours and we just chuck in discussion topics.

[Dolly Alderton]

What were the discussions like?

[Kristin Davis]

All womeny stuff. It's not like, oh, womeny stuff. Where are we all buying good bed sheets these days? It's not that. It's like, it's a bit like this, like this record. It's like, what are feminist issues that are on our mind at the moment?

[Dolly Alderton]

Right. What were yours?

[Kristin Davis]

It's a bit of a. Bit of a haze. No, mine were. Mine were. She was interested that I'd written a novel from the perspective of a man.

[Dolly Alderton]

Great.

[Kristin Davis]

So we were talking about that and we're talking about creating likable female characters. But she would do stuff like she has this kind of drawl and she would say, like, I would say something like, I'd say, you know, I'm so interested in women who write male characters in a first person voice of how the difference is how their reviews are different. Like, do they judge female narrators more than they judge male narrators? Which I found from writing good material. I think Gloria would just sort of look over her shoulder and just sort of shout into the ether to someone, be like, can we get that? Can we get that written down? Can we find that out? Can we find out how many female authors have written books? What's like.

[Dolly Alderton]

It's like an unseen PA who's not in.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, she was, but she was amazing. She was just, can we get that written down? Can we get that? Can we get that printed out? And she would just. Yeah, she's like 90. She's amazing.

[Dolly Alderton]

Unreal.

[Kristin Davis]

So, yeah. I loved the glorious diamond thing. It felt so New Yorky.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay. We have mentioned Harry and Harry's cancer, which is on our things that.

[Kristin Davis]

I really liked it.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Did you like it?

[Dolly Alderton]

I think I would have liked to have seen more of Harry and Charlotte. I thought the best they ever were was in season one when they went to go see Rock's principal because they found out that Rock had come out at school but not at home. I thought was really beautifully done, but. Okay, this is something I want us to find a grown up and non judgmental way to talk about oh, God. Which is. I feel like one of the reasons they gave Charlotte very light material to work with was because her abilities have diminished in terms of as an actor. Like, it is crazy to watch Charlotte Yorke in 2002, her heart breaking over her infertility, doing heavy stuff, doing heavy dramatic work alongside being this light, gorgeous, sort of Pollyanna woman versus this kind of person that we have now that feels so unrelatable and so not like a human being to me. And I do think a large part of that is the work that Kirsten Davis has chosen to get done. And I don't want to judge her for that or why she felt like she needed to do it. And I understand how, particularly as she hasn't worked a ton of in the last decade, that, like, she might feel this anxiety of going back on screen and being perceived, and that might have contributed to that decision. And, like, again, I understand it. It's the world we're living in. I might not like it, but it's what it is. How do I talk about that? How do we discuss that when the main instrument of acting is the face? And Kirsten Davis used to have a Stradivarius violin and she's broken it. It into a kazoo?

[Kristin Davis]

You know, it's like a global problem.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It's, like, so enormous, that problem, I think.

[Dolly Alderton]

But, like, it's. It's sort of. It's this crazy thing. And I've spoken about this with an agent I know who represents some, like, brilliant older character actors in the 50s. And he was like, I feel like I spent all day on the phone to these women convincing them not to have work done. But it's this endless sort of, like, infinity loop of like, they. They're not being cast because aesthetically, they're not ascribing to this impossible standard. But also, when they are cast, they're not able to do their jobs properly because the work impedes their ability to do their jobs.

[Kristin Davis]

Or they're, like, bullied by the press and all the time because, you know, think about all those jokes. I couldn't believe how much content there was about, like, Sarah Jessica Parker's face looking older or Miranda's face looking older or Miranda having gray hair. So it's like, these are choices. Public humiliation.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Or not being able to do our job, or you avoid that and then you can't do your job properly, and then you get even worse press.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. So it's like this complete catch 22 of being an older female performer that it pisses me off so much on a societal level and then on a scene to scene story level, it's just not working. And like, I feel like they give her thinner and thinner material. Do you mean to like facilitate? What is a thinner instrument?

[Kristin Davis]

I do think that that work has really calmed down. I know it in the series, but.

[Dolly Alderton]

It'S like the only thing that she can move is her eyes. And so it's this kind of like, why can I see so much of the whites of her eyes in the. And like it feels like shrill and panicked even when she's delivering a low key line. And again, I feel I don't feel good saying this. Like, I don't want that. I think she's like a great person. Like, you know all that. And like, I feel really protective of Kristen D. Davis. I feel detective of Charlotte.

[Kristin Davis]

I feel she's a phenomenal actor.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

No, I know what you mean. It's so uncomfortable to talk about it and I hate talking about it. But when it is the instrument.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Of your entire profession. Craft. Okay, I think we should just do a quick fire now.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay.

[Kristin Davis]

What worked for me. What worked for you?

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay, okay. Because every time we get waylaid for.

[Kristin Davis]

20 minutes, I know you're just too sincere and over unlittle about everything. Margaret Thatcher. It worked for me.

[Dolly Alderton]

It worked for you? Yeah, it worked for me. I thought it was funny.

[Kristin Davis]

It was just so specific. I think I just enjoyed like when she was reading aloud that sentence about Margaret Thatcher's childhood in the 50s. Like, this is so weird.

[Dolly Alderton]

Him and his pipe and like he wants to feel like he's in her cabinet. I was like, this works for me.

[Kristin Davis]

Duncan worked for me.

[Dolly Alderton]

Duncan worked for me. Love Duncan.

[Kristin Davis]

The sex life of the Todd Wexleys worked for me.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I just thought. I believed they were horny for each other.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes. Were you let down by the Marion the editor scene? The editor thing of like the affair that she was obviously never gonna have?

[Kristin Davis]

Nah, didn't care. Fucking every woman I know is doing that at the moment. That's not true. But that's why All Fours was such an important book. I just think it's so like a woman who just ends up being swallowed by taking care of children and a huge career. I just think it's so believable that you'd have a little flirt with someone at work.

[Dolly Alderton]

But is it story?

[Kristin Davis]

I enjoyed it.

[Dolly Alderton]

I like it doesn't go anywhere. Like, it's like, okay, fine, but go on, carry on. What worked for you?

[Kristin Davis]

For some reason that worked for Me, Seema and Carrie, when they had the argument about the house they were gonna rent. What was that? Oh, my God. It was the best scene of the whole thing. Basically, Carrie and Seema had this single girl plan. They were gonna rent a house in the Hamptons for the whole summer. You and I had a big chat about it at the time because we found it so powerful. And then Carrie got a boyfriend. Carrie got back together with Aidan. And then Seema was like, I'm really sorry, we're not going to the Hamptons together. We had a thing going on. And I don't wanna be a third wheel to Aidan. And there's no hard feelings, but I'm like, not doing that. I just. I really love that.

[Dolly Alderton]

I completely forgot about that. Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so poignant about what it is to feel like you're the last single woman.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

In a demographic or a group of friends and to have one other person who's there with you and then who's gone.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And then the friend still pretending like you're in the same group.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, yeah. And Carrie was like, he'd only come down on the weekends sometimes and seems like.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, it's interesting. This will probably be too offensive to keep in, so please feel free to cut it out. But me and my friend Sabrina, who's getting married, who was single for a very, very long time with me, we often talk about, like, the Rachel Dollarjal effect.

[Dolly Alderton]

Did not think that was going to come out of your mouth.

[Kristin Davis]

Of long term singledom. That if you've been single for a really long time, when you do get into a relationship, there is a part of you that still wants to claim single identity.

[Dolly Alderton]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

And it's so offensive to people who are actually living the single life.

[Dolly Alderton]

Fascinating.

[Kristin Davis]

And you can't be Rachel Dolajal to single women if you're not single anymore.

[Dolly Alderton]

Remember you had someone write into your column ages ago who was like, I feel like my coupled up friends are colonizing or culturally appropriating my single life by going on holidays by themselves.

[Kristin Davis]

I was so on her side.

[Dolly Alderton]

Of course you were.

[Kristin Davis]

Anyway, that argument, it worked for me. Oh, LTW's dad's funeral.

[Dolly Alderton]

Loved that. Loved how, like, batty it was. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

The woman coming out with that big theater production, I found it so funny.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

That's quite old.

[Dolly Alderton]

Sexual Pippin Funeral.

[Kristin Davis]

Basically. The more grotesques that they populate the show with the more eccentric, overblown comedic characters for one episode, I think the more it feels, I just.

[Dolly Alderton]

All the reasonableness that is just a Bummer.

[Kristin Davis]

Like trying to make them all so human and empathetic when it's just these one episode. Which is why the puppet was so great.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. The more grotesques, the better.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, the drama in Virginia.

[Dolly Alderton]

Love that. Wired, breaking the window.

[Kristin Davis]

That whole row around the table was so compelling.

[Dolly Alderton]

And the Adderall and the board game and all this and so good.

[Kristin Davis]

Charlotte getting a job.

[Dolly Alderton]

Charlotte getting a job. I got really wound up about that Tracey Hemmond thing.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, I hated that. You're right.

[Dolly Alderton]

I hated that.

[Kristin Davis]

It was really boring, that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And cynical and totally cynical. Yeah. I liked her being back in the art world.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. I didn't. Again, it was another one of those things with the Gen Z.

[Kristin Davis]

Sort of can't write Gen Z. Yeah, yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

And also they have this thing of like every character. You know how in the first season every character had like a person, a person of color who was assigned as their mentor or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

That's so true. Oh, that was so rough that first series.

[Dolly Alderton]

So rough.

[Kristin Davis]

Those poor actors.

[Dolly Alderton]

I remember you saying last night you were like, I think the first season of Unjust. Like that will date far worse than the first season of Sex in the City. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Because it was a moment in time where like a lot of white women were realizing the atrocities of racial inequality for the first time.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And we all decided to be helpful in the most self centered way. In the most self centered and completely unhelpful way.

[Dolly Alderton]

God.

[Kristin Davis]

And that was like a lot of that was in. And just like that, I think.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And it was like such good intentions, but it was like, just like, what is. What. How is this helpful for anyone?

[Dolly Alderton]

It's. It's not just the kind. Because you're right. Because I don't think that did come out just off the back of Black Lives Matter and George Floyd and this, you know, a huge moment or whatever. But it's also this thing of like a certain kind of like white online middle class, upper middle class person or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

Liberal.

[Dolly Alderton]

Liberal who cannot see any social movement that is not through the lens of self improvement.

[Kristin Davis]

Exactly.

[Dolly Alderton]

Do you know what I mean? It's like they read about an issue and then because they're reading about it on their Instagram, their TikTok, which is a distillation of their lives, they're like, okay, well, here's this thing I'm reading about in this country or whatever. How can I make it about.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Me in my life?

[Kristin Davis]

And by the way, I'm including myself.

[Dolly Alderton]

In that oh, I'm including myself.

[Kristin Davis]

Like when I look back on that period, period of time, I think like there were just some thought, like some decisions that I made or some stuff that I was sharing or like that was just like what was I thinking that I thought that that was. It was just so. I thought that it wasn't self. I thought I was doing the opposite. But actually, yeah, it's just. It was a very online moment and.

[Dolly Alderton]

It'S very people in the. In media, in the arts as well, who are kind of like governing with the idea that like they work for and with sort of like intrinsically racist institutions or whatever being like, well, how can I be the change I wish to see in the world? Maybe it's by retweeting these accounts kind of thing. Whatever. It's like and. And what we all have to deal with in different ways. It's that like you will not be able to showcase your political identity or the change you want to see in the world by the things. Once again, to return to the early points, you're buying or not buying.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Or posting about. In that point, you have to find more legitimate ways in order to insert yourself in these or simply do nothing at all. But you have to be okay with that. You can't half do it and want praise.

[Kristin Davis]

Exactly. Yeah. It was like, yeah. That was why I'd forgotten that thing about the mentor. Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

Everyone. Nia Wallace haven't seen height nor hair of her.

[Kristin Davis]

Poor old Nya Wallace. Where did she go?

[Dolly Alderton]

Wasn't there a bit where Andre, Rashad and her separated? And then she was like, I'm going to this thing. And then Miranda was like, good. It was good to know you. I mean, I can't even remember. I could have made up that totally.

[Kristin Davis]

Kathy and Bob love.

[Dolly Alderton]

Kathy and Bob worked for us. They were my favorite characters in the whole show. Bob, who's Kathy, is Aiden's ex wife. Bob is Kathy's boyfriend. And the way that Bob was like to carry. Listen, this family is a fucking nightmare.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, it was really good.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was so cool.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so not a Sex and the City scene, that whole section. But I really enjoyed being in it for a moment.

[Dolly Alderton]

It really reminded me of those episodes of Girls that would just focus on Hannah's parents and the drama they would have with their friends at the university. And they were always so rewarding and like it was so weird because like often with unjust like that, it's like, why am I getting the perspective of that Jackie or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, that Jackie. I think he Lived on into series two, didn't he?

[Dolly Alderton]

Did he. He had a girlfriend called Smoke. Oh, yes, Smoke. Did her dress for the Met Gala.

[Kristin Davis]

Aiden, did he work for you?

[Dolly Alderton]

That. Here's the thing. Did he work for me as someone I was supposed to root for? No. Did he work for me as like, to go back to our earlier point, the, like, calcifying of everyone's talk, someone's toxic traffic traits from when they were in their 30s have. Then again, because they've been in the same way that Carrie has been left unchecked with her neuroses and they've been pampered and spoiled and now she's a fussy, materialistic, cunty, mean freak. He. It's like he was always this, like, I'm the king of the castle guy now. He has his kingdom in Virginia where he, like, makes his boys paint houses on the farm or wherever. He's been, like, able to. His neuroses have run unchanged. He has become a monster. He's a dark person. Yeah, he is like that. It's fascinating to me psychologically. Did I ever root for him? No.

[Kristin Davis]

I think it's like I love the appearance of Aiden and I hated the persistence of Aiden.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes. That's how we all felt in some way or another.

[Kristin Davis]

LTW's wardrobe worked for me.

[Dolly Alderton]

I loved how batty it was.

[Kristin Davis]

I just loved her clothes, loved her accessories, loved her stupid clothes. Oh. And above all, more than anything that worked for me. I think it was the best choice across the entire three series. Rosie o' Donnell is a nun.

[Dolly Alderton]

So good.

[Kristin Davis]

Goes back to those comedy cameos. One episode cameos. That's what Sex and the City was. It's the guy who's addicted to going down on you. It's the guy who still. Who wants his. He still lives with his parents. It's the guy who wants his parents to walk in on him having sex.

[Dolly Alderton]

Totally.

[Kristin Davis]

It's shortcomings. It's the guy who can't. Again, that's who comes before he even kisses her. It's just all these characters that defined Sex in the City. They were too scared to lean into that. All of it had to be so sincere.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, Rosie was great. And they just let Rosie by after Wicked because I knew you.

[Kristin Davis]

So that was my favorite episode.

[Dolly Alderton]

Miranda and Carrie being like taking the piss out of her for being so excited about various things.

[Kristin Davis]

Fucking a tourist.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

That's what it was.

[Dolly Alderton]

Fucking a tourist. Why had I never come up in sexy? I know. Perfect.

[Kristin Davis]

It was so pretentious and it Was so funny and it was so. I loved it so much. I loved, like, another moment that I really loved that was just like, so specific, was when Seema had to get rid of her driver and she's playing that really sad Diana Ross song and she looks genuinely bereft again. That just felt so old school. Sex and City, it's like they're not pretending to be relatable in that moment, but it's really self aware, oddly.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Yeah. Loved it.

[Kristin Davis]

So that's what worked for us.

[Dolly Alderton]

Can we do a quick run through? I know you have to go. I know you're already late for dinner.

[Kristin Davis]

Go on.

[Dolly Alderton]

Of the abandoned storyline. Just like that. Storylines we thought were gonna go somewhere never went anywhere. Carrie's Instagram episode one.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, my God.

[Dolly Alderton]

She's taking pictures of fashion people and she's like, oh, my Instagram. Oh. She's like, oh, yeah. It's kind of a thing lately, you know. Where did that go?

[Kristin Davis]

That went nowhere.

[Dolly Alderton]

This will be quick because the only response is that went nowhere.

[Kristin Davis]

That went nowhere.

[Dolly Alderton]

That Jackie went nowhere. One of Carrie's best friends in season one disappeared.

[Kristin Davis]

What did they talk about?

[Dolly Alderton]

That Jackie Miranda was getting a master's degree at some point.

[Kristin Davis]

What is her job?

[Dolly Alderton]

Her job. Okay. She left corporate law in order to get, like, a master's degree in human rights law because she wanted to help immigrants. Right. People who were being deported.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Dolly Alderton]

That was a big wake up call moment for her.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes, I remember that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Right. She went to nyu. She met Niall Wallace. She then was gonna get an internship, but then she went to LA instead. Then she got an internship at Human Rights Watch. Then she got a job covering someone's mat leave.

[Kristin Davis]

And is that like a charity or a think tank?

[Dolly Alderton]

I don't know.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you think she knows?

[Dolly Alderton]

But, like, the writer's remark is to keep saying Human Rights Watch like it's a thing. Like, we could Google it. I'm not going to. It's a real thing.

[Kristin Davis]

Maybe it's a real thing. Okay.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay. Yeah, for sure. I guess it's what sounds like it's like a legal body that protects human rights. That's.

[Kristin Davis]

Gotcha.

[Dolly Alderton]

Sure. But, like, did she ever get the master's degree? Did she graduate from the master's? Wouldn't that be a moment?

[Kristin Davis]

Who knows?

[Dolly Alderton]

By the way, this is. This. Most of this is taken from a QVC ad I saw. So somebody came up with this list? Not me. Lillian Brady had sex or something.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, yeah. That was great. That moment that could have been strung out a bit.

[Dolly Alderton]

Didn't go anywhere. Fine. There are two podcast storylines on this show.

[Kristin Davis]

First, she did a whole second podcast.

[Dolly Alderton]

A second podcast. It was the season one finale. Her snapping on the headphones, her dulcet tones. The first podcast wasn't her tone. The second podcast is gonna be just Carrie's voice.

[Kristin Davis]

I'm Carrie Bradshaw, and this is Sex.

[Dolly Alderton]

And the City, season two, episode one. We're shutting down the podcast. That's crazy. That is crazy. Nuts. Loved and lost, we've already spoken about already. They just totally abandoned it. We never found out what happened. The fact that Carrie Bradshaw was married.

[Kristin Davis]

For 15 years, okay, that's insane.

[Dolly Alderton]

Crazy.

[Kristin Davis]

She never talks about her husband. She never talks about her married life. There's no evidence she. She was ever married.

[Dolly Alderton]

No picture of him in the flat.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you think that's a Chris Noth thing?

[Dolly Alderton]

Every now and then on the writers room podcast, Michael Patrick King will invoke fond memories of Chris Noth.

[Kristin Davis]

Really?

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, I remember. Me and Chris would da, da, da. In a way, that kind of implies he doesn't really care what happens with Chris Noth. And also, it's very insulting because it's like, why is Mr. Big largely blameless paying the price that Chris Noth is not paying in real life?

[Kristin Davis]

So true.

[Dolly Alderton]

He's having a whale of a time on Instagram.

[Kristin Davis]

He's operating a roaring trade on Instagram. It's every day he's posting. I can't, and I don't follow him, but I'll go. Beautiful wife and a young son, but I'm always interested. I love seeing, like, cancelled celebrities. Who I follow is still engaging with the content.

[Dolly Alderton]

Lily's pansexual boyfriend. No idea.

[Kristin Davis]

Well, he's just gone, isn't he?

[Dolly Alderton]

But he never came. We never really met him.

[Kristin Davis]

No.

[Dolly Alderton]

He came to dinner once. I don't know.

[Kristin Davis]

I was doing the Ecalde.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, big one for me. Dolly Wells. Miscellaneous psychological baggage.

[Kristin Davis]

She doesn't like kids.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay. Every time we get any prolonged time with Dolly Wells's character vis a vis Miranda's relationship with her, it's always this kind of like, she's so charming. She's so kind of quirky, but grounded and sexy and lovely. But she'll always hint to, you know, listen, I've got my stuff. I've got my stuff. It's like, what's her stuff? Are we ever gonna find out what her stuff is that she.

[Kristin Davis]

Sort of. Because there was that episode where she got a bit weird at Miranda's when.

[Dolly Alderton]

All her friends came over. Friends came over.

[Kristin Davis]

I Love that episode, love that episode. The way they portrayed so Jules and.

[Dolly Alderton]

Mimi the whole episode.

[Kristin Davis]

I've just loved the whole transatlantic theme of this series. The way they portray, portray English people is delightful to me. They're either smoking a pipe and writing 500 page biographies of Margaret Thatcher or they're like getting really drunk in your flat and just shrieking. Which is by the way, very accurate.

[Dolly Alderton]

Something I like about the Dolly Wells storyline is that once upon a time Miranda thought she wanted jewels. Turns out she wanted Mimi.

[Kristin Davis]

Really good. Did you come out with that yourself just now?

[Dolly Alderton]

Right now.

[Kristin Davis]

That's really, really good. She actually sounds and looks quite a lot like Mimi.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, she does, totally. She runs a head shop, a hat.

[Kristin Davis]

Shop.

[Dolly Alderton]

From in Hampstead and he's from.

[Kristin Davis]

Brixton and he goes.

[Dolly Alderton]

I don't know what that means.

[Kristin Davis]

She goes to his flat. It's actually really hard to do an impression of an American.

[Dolly Alderton]

Doing an English impression was flat.

[Kristin Davis]

Sometimes you do an impression of me back to me and it's really funny hearing you do like a sort of.

[Dolly Alderton]

I love when you do impressions of me. To me it's so funny.

[Kristin Davis]

It's so Father Ted when I try and do it.

[Dolly Alderton]

The final abandoned storyline. It got said once and it was never picked up, ever. What if big was a big mistake? It's crazy that she said that. Miranda looked at her and then it.

[Kristin Davis]

Was never, never brought up again.

[Dolly Alderton]

That is the last time she ever mentioned her husband.

[Kristin Davis]

I think there's gotta be a Krisnoth thing. It's got to be. It's got to be.

[Dolly Alderton]

I thought it was a big mistake.

[Kristin Davis]

I remember you. And I couldn't believe that it felt.

[Dolly Alderton]

So disrespectful to us, the fans.

[Kristin Davis]

What? Aiden made her think that Aiden.

[Dolly Alderton]

Because she went shopping for a pepper mill with Aiden.

[Kristin Davis]

Aiden in his barber jacket thinking that she's having an affair with the pipe smoking Margaret Thatcher biographer.

[Dolly Alderton]

All those stages.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you know what? It was time for it to end. When I say that sentence it was. They'd done everything they could. I couldn't see what.

[Dolly Alderton]

They had done all they could.

[Kristin Davis]

They had done all they could. They had done all they could.

[Dolly Alderton]

Can't believe this is the last time we're going to talk on the record about this.

[Kristin Davis]

Well, unless they do a fucking movie in 10 years time, which. Which I think they probably will, don't you think?

[Dolly Alderton]

Another movie.

[Kristin Davis]

I think they will. They won't do another series. They'll do a wonderful like a Christmas special or something.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, maybe. I tell you what, the Best. And just like that episode was the video that Sarah Jessica Parker posted to her Instagram. Oh, that was the best episode.

[Kristin Davis]

Floods of tears.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. She had crossed streets, some things.

[Kristin Davis]

That little poem. It was so nice, so sincere. I love Sarah Jessica Parker.

[Dolly Alderton]

I know. She's so earnest.

[Kristin Davis]

I love Sarah Jessica Parker. I love Cynthia Nixon. I love Kristen Davis. And it has to be said, the mantra. We come back to that we came. That we said in the first episode of analyzing it. Just like that. Dodgy sex in the city is better than no sex in the city.

[Dolly Alderton]

So true.

[Kristin Davis]

And I've loved seeing where these women are rather than just dreaming about it.

[Dolly Alderton]

Oh, I feel very teary now. It is sad, you know, it is. You're right.

[Kristin Davis]

It's interesting as well. I just knew there was just so much hatred for this show online and it wasn't in, like, a jokey way, like, really nasty, nasty hate. You know, the number of times you would see a piece of that was just like, this is the worst show on tv.

[Dolly Alderton]

Just when you thought they couldn't go anywhere.

[Kristin Davis]

Why can I not stop watching it? And it's like. Well, because you obviously are connecting to it in some way, whether you're connecting to a past version of it that it's not anymore, but, like, why don't we shine a lens on that? Shine a lens. Why don't we shine a light on that instead? You know, it's like, I don't know. I just knew that those people would be the people that are like. Like, oh, I'm actually weirdly devastated that it's over.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Oh, that. They have been that and they have been that.

[Kristin Davis]

And I wonder if it will, like, I don't know, teach us a bit about the sport of.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah. Be sportsman. Like, about it.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. The sport of. Of what it is to consume culture. And it was just so involved and it was so personal and it was so right.

[Dolly Alderton]

I wish we were taking it in good fun a bit more.

[Kristin Davis]

It was just a bit of fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was just a bit of bloody fun. It's just a bit of piss.

[Kristin Davis]

It's just a bit of piss. That's a great. The thick of it reference, if you don't know it. It was just a bit of fun. And I just think, yeah, I don't know, I wonder if there'll be, like, lessons to be drawn from it of how. How we pile in with this, like, gleeful hatred on things.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It'll be back. Mark my words. It'll be back. It will be. It won't be back as a series. But there will be if.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay, here's. Here's a question to end on. We're just addicted to not ending this podcast.

[Kristin Davis]

I know.

[Dolly Alderton]

What do you think if they were to make any spin off of any of these new characters or new themes or whatever?

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, I had this thought.

[Dolly Alderton]

What do you think the spin off would be? Lisette in the city. I hate Lisette.

[Kristin Davis]

Lisette reminds me of every woman that I've been dumped for.

[Dolly Alderton]

So true. It's Friday night.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. I'm so late for the people I'm meeting up with.

[Dolly Alderton]

You're all done up to go out.

[Kristin Davis]

I know, but why? Could I sit and talk for another three hours about this?

[Dolly Alderton]

You're gonna come back for my new miniseries, though, which, by the way, is a secret.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, you're not gonna say what it is?

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, but it's gonna be really good.

[Kristin Davis]

It's gonna be so good, you guys are gonna lose your fucking lids about it. It's the best idea I think you've ever had.

[Dolly Alderton]

Thanks. Let's hope we can stick the landing with this one.

[Kristin Davis]

You're not gonna have any one star reviews that say that. You say, by and large, too much. It's really lodged in my head that such a strange thing to be angry about.

[Dolly Alderton]

Dolly, we're reaching hour two and you are fully 30 minutes late for dinner. That started 30 minutes ago and is across town.

[Kristin Davis]

I love you so much and this was so fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

This has been the pride of my life. Talking about this show with you is transfer in much in the way Carrie Bradshaw has transformed the life of Cedric Parker. This show has transformed the life of me. Same. Remember when we started doing sentimental in the city? And like, prior to this, I was quite a niche books podcast that, like, had, like, loyal followers, but we're still small enough. And then this has transformed it entirely, and it could totally balloon the listenership. I remember after we were finished, I was like, I don't think people are gonna want to stick around for me. I remember saying to you, I was like, I think I'm gonna get loads of horrible reviews from people who were like, bringing Dolly back or whatever. And, like, it's been five years or whatever. I've, like, traveled the world with this podcast since I've done sellout theater tours. And, like, it's all because of that moment during COVID where people decided that, like, you know, I don't know, that there are all the insights were good enough to stick around for.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, it's you. You're the magic. There's no one else who can talk as fluently and balance, you know, cynicism and passion and fairness and kindness and silliness when talking about culture. Like, you and you represent so many people in terms of how you feel about culture and how it's changed you and how it's formed friendships and how it's strengthened and fortified relationships for you and how it's influenced your own work. It's like a very, very powerful thing that you do. Oh, my God. Do you know what I think this.

[Dolly Alderton]

Feels like the poem that Erica Parker wrote for herself?

[Kristin Davis]

No. You know that Meghan Markle podcast that's gone viral?

[Dolly Alderton]

No. What is this? Thank you for the lovely little bit of speech, by the way. That was nice.

[Kristin Davis]

That is true.

[Dolly Alderton]

Very moving. What was the mega arc of it?

[Kristin Davis]

It was nothing to do with Sex and the City, really. And it was nothing to do with me. It was you. It was you.

[Dolly Alderton]

That is, it was everything to do with you. It was like, you know, you asked. You helped me access something. I was. I don't know. I'm just grateful to you forever for being my friend and for being my collaborator. And to quote us back to us, I love being a recording artist with you.

[Kristin Davis]

I love being a recording artist with you. I guess that's it then. Bye, guys. Bye. How long was that?

[Caroline]

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yep.

[Caroline]

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