Wicked with Natasha Hodgson

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Summary: Episode "Wicked with Natasha Hodgson"

Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Natasha Hodgson
Release Date: November 28, 2024
Podcast Information:
Sentimental Garbage is a podcast hosted by Caroline O'Donoghue that delves into the cultural phenomena we cherish, exploring the emotions they evoke and the societal pressures they may impose. Formerly a chick-lit and "Sex and the City" podcast, it emphasizes feeling deeply over knowing facts.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Caroline introducing the topic for the day: the recent "Wicked" movie adaptation. She welcomes Natasha Hodgson, an Olivier Award-winning playwright and star of Operation Mincemeat, who is set to transition to Broadway.

Notable Quote:
Caroline [03:33]: “Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where you'll hang with the right cohorts and be good at sports.”

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2. Exploring "Wicked": Movie vs. Musical

Caroline and Natasha delve into the intricacies of adapting the beloved stage musical Wicked into a film. They discuss the challenges and creative decisions involved in translating a story that originated from a book, then evolved into a musical, and finally into a cinematic experience.

Notable Quote:
Natasha [05:26]: “It's crazy that Wicked has two memes that will last forever.”

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3. Performances and Casting Choices

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Ariana Grande's portrayal of Glinda and Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba. The hosts analyze Grande's unexpected casting, her comedic timing, and how she brings a fresh dynamic to Glinda. They also commend Erivo's sincere and powerful performance, highlighting the emotional depth she adds to Elphaba.

Notable Quote:
Caroline [38:22]: “She is incredible, very thin, beautiful pop star. But we were wrong.”
Natalie [38:28]: “Yes, we were wrong. Ariana is perfect for Glinda.”

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4. Thematic Depth and Social Commentary

The hosts examine the underlying themes of Wicked, such as societal corruption, the struggle for civil rights, and the personal growth of the characters. They reflect on how the film addresses complex issues like racism and immigration through its fantastical narrative.

Notable Quote:
Natasha [28:03]: “I hope you're feeling clever. And they do like... it feels like a drag version of what I do in this podcast.”

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5. Production Design and Cinematic Techniques

Caroline and Natasha praise the film's stunning visual design, from the beautiful sets and costumes to effective use of CGI. They discuss specific scenes, such as the transformation of Elphaba during "Defying Gravity," and how cinematic techniques enhance the magical realism of the story.

Notable Quote:
Caroline [10:02]: “It doesn't need to look old fashioned. Everything looked unbelievable. So beautiful.”

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6. Comparison with Other Musicals

The discussion extends to how Wicked stands alongside other musicals like Chicago and Mean Girls, noting the importance of authenticity and sincere emotion in musical theater. They contrast successful adaptations with less effective ones, emphasizing the necessity of respecting the source material's integrity.

Notable Quote:
Natasha [18:15]: “If any of the sets of skills are crap, everything else is pulled down. There is no drop of poison in any element of musical theater.”

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7. Personal Reflections and Experiences

Both hosts share their personal journeys in theater and filmmaking, reflecting on how Wicked has influenced their own creative endeavors. They discuss the emotional toll of producing high-quality art and the gratification that comes from knowing their work resonates with audiences.

Notable Quote:
Caroline [62:44]: “It feels like we've accidentally stumbled across a sort of magic and momentum that people want to get behind. It’s pure golden sunshine.”

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8. Conclusion and Future Endeavors

Caroline and Natasha wrap up the episode by expressing their excitement for future projects, including Natasha's upcoming Broadway show Operation Mincemeat. They emphasize the importance of dedication and passion in creating art that not only entertains but also inspires and unites people.

Notable Quote:
Natasha [109:12]: “I can't wait for part two. I'll see you back here for part two.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Adaptation Challenges: Transitioning Wicked from stage to screen requires balancing fidelity to the original musical with the demands of cinematic storytelling.
• Casting Impact: Ariana Grande's casting as Glinda brings a new comedic and charismatic layer to the character, while Cynthia Erivo's portrayal of Elphaba adds depth and emotional resonance.
• Thematic Resonance: The film successfully tackles serious social issues through its fantasy narrative, making it relevant and impactful.
• Production Excellence: High-quality production design and thoughtful cinematic techniques enhance the magical atmosphere of Wicked.
• Personal Insight: Creating meaningful art involves immense effort and emotional investment, but the connection with the audience makes it worthwhile.

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This episode of Sentimental Garbage offers an in-depth exploration of Wicked, blending critical analysis with personal anecdotes. Caroline and Natasha provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the film's artistic achievements and its place within modern musical theater.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello there. As you can see, we have yet another off season episode of Sentimental Garbage. Because I simply couldn't resist weighing in on Wicked while I'm here, though, I really wanted to draw your attention to a very, very, very exciting initiative, I suppose you could call it. We are doing with Sentimental Garbage and something I've never done before, and something that's been requested since the early days. We are finally launching Merch T shirts. Totes Crop sweatshirts. We're doing them. And we are not only doing them, we are doing them in support of War Child, a charity that is driven by a single goal, which is ensuring a safe future for every child affected by war. Now, I don't need to tell you why now is an extremely timely time to be supporting a charity like Warchild. But if you want to get someone in your life, a podcast fan, a great Christmas gift that is stunningly designed and also help an amazing cause, please get to everpress.com warchildex sentimental garbage we are. Yeah. T shirts, sweatshirts, huge, huge tote bags that you could do the entire weekly shopping in, and crop tops. And just in case you're driving or perhaps you're on a tube, these are the most stunningly designed things. Gavin actually designed, designed them. I know you guys have been listening to me Be an absolute Wife guy for years and talking about how Gavin's an amazing designer, an amazing artist, but now you can finally see for yourselves. But to give you a visual picture, for those of you on the tube and who don't have Internet, it's kind of like on the front is like on the. On the breast pocket there's this beautiful red heart with an SG in it, which I love because it kind of looks like something from a deck of playing cards, but on the back it says Sentimental Garbage Feeling the most since 2018. And then there is a drawing of a dog, which is my dog, and some beautiful floral illustrations. It's. It's just so. It's just the perfect thing. It's. I'm just. I. One of the reason I held off on Merch for so long was that I couldn't stand the idea of like sort of cheap, bad looking stuff that would just exist forever. And what I love about dealing with Everpress is that they only print as many that are ordered. So to minimize waste as much as possible. So anyway, I'm talking too much. Please go to everpress.com Warchild X Sentimental garbage to support this lovely cause and get someone a lovely Christmas gift or maybe something for yourself. And also while I have you here, we are doing a live show in February. I don't have the date in front of me, but it will be in the show notes and I'd love to see you there. Okay, on with the show. Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where you'll hang with the right cohorts and be good at sports. My name is Caroline O'Donoghue and this week I've really been holding space for the lyrics of Defying Gravity. And joining me is the wickedly talented Hadel Dazeem.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

It's not Adele Dazeem. It's Tash Hodgson.

[A]

What a disappointment. Imagine how much have you gotten Adele Dazeem for this podcast?

[B]

It's crazy that Wicked has two memes that will last forever. Now does that one look at the.

[A]

Talented holding space for the lyrics of. You know what? Life finds a way.

[B]

Life finds a way.

[A]

Life finds a way.

[B]

Do you know what occurred to me this morning? Because to let the listeners in on what kind of day we've been having, we met at 10am outside the Leicester Square View.

[A]

Already I'm memorizing the stage. Do you remember when this morning we.

[B]

Met at 10am and on the way in when I was sort of like going through my notes and stuff, it occurred to me, I was like, I'm going to the cinema with Tash and then I'm gonna do a podcast about it. But this is really quite a get. I kind of forgot that I was, oh, it makes sense to do a musical episode with my friend who's in musicals. And I was like, this is an Olivier Award winning playwright and star of Operation Mincemeat, soon to be Broadway star.

[A]

That's true. There's quite literally no denying that. I know it is a get well done. And my fee is only half what it would usually be. Just a couple more zeros and I'll see you.

[B]

True nuts. But we saw the movie just one hour ago.

[A]

God.

[B]

We broke for Ramen and then we came right in. We broke.

[A]

We broke. During the film, we broke. And then we saw Ravan and then we came here.

[B]

What are Our thoughts. I mean, wait, is it too early to be like, here's the review.

[A]

Dive straight in. Maybe.

[B]

Or maybe we need to talk up to how.

[A]

How we got here.

[B]

How we got here as a people.

[A]

As a nation, as two powerful women who are friends, despite any political leanings or disagreements we have. Who can say if we've been changed for the better?

[B]

All I know is I have been changed. Fuck. Sorry. It's all over the place, guys. There's too much.

[A]

First of all, I think. Well, I think let's. I think we can do, like, overview thoughts of big, big thoughts, read the movie. And then I think you're right. I think that we need to go back. I think both for us as friends and colleagues and professionals, and also for the musical. Like, it's a really interesting musical in that it's a musical that's based on. It's a film based on a musical based on a book.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Based on a different book. Do you mean? It's like you've got the wizard of Oz, and then you've got Wind, the Wicked, the story of the Witch, the original. The book that sort of takes the story from. And then you've got the stage production, and then you have this movie.

[B]

So a Russian Nesting Dolls of culture.

[A]

It's really, you know, for. I think, imagine for, like, both of us as storytellers ourselves. And, yes, I want an Olivia, whatever, but you got to drop it in. But, like, you know, for people, particularly for. Yeah, for me, as someone who likes. Who writes musicals and you writes for the screen and write books and stuff, like, everything's in there. Like, it was a book, it was a musical. It now is a movie. And to translate that from a story that we all know, which is that of the Wicked Witch and Wizard of Oz, is like, how amazing. It's. So many layers of this mattress just goes on and on and on, and we're just, like, sleeping on the top of it.

[B]

That is the best way of putting it. Yes.

[A]

I feel so soft for the heft of the narrative glory that sits on top of this film. Like, oh, I could doze in this little fucking bed forever.

[B]

Oh, my God. And as well, because, like, so, again, to go back to the very first nesting doll, wizard of Oz is a book. The wizard of oz, then in 1939 or whatever, becomes the wizard of Oz with Judy Garland that we all know and love. And then the, you know, the Wicked comes later and everything. But, like, it really struck me when I was leaving the theater of being like, oh, there will Be young people going to see this who've never seen.

[A]

The wizard of Oz and probably quite a lot of young people now whose first sort of introduction to this story is going to be the story of the witches of the wizard of Oz, not the story of Dorothy Gale and Toto and that adventure. What is watching this movie, like, free of context? Is it possible to do that? And should you. Should that be like, you're not allowed to ticket unless you've seen the wizard of Oz and understand the counter narrative.

[B]

But do you think equally, do you need to. Obviously you have that dramatic prologue at the beginning where it's like Glinda just being like, oh, you know, she's dead and there's a little human girl who threw a bucket of water on her and it's all. We all know what she's talking about.

[A]

And you also got that little glimpse, like on the real brick Road right at the top. You saw the get Dorothy and the Tin man. And yes, I should say, are we gonna be quite spoilery? Do we mind?

[B]

Yes, I think so.

[A]

I feel like you kind of have to, don't you? You have to go watch it and listen to us.

[B]

Yeah, this is full spoilers.

[A]

They're doing this for us.

[B]

Yeah, this is mostly for us.

[A]

And that's fine for everyone who just wants to sit with their fat pal and talk about how good the Wicked movie was. This is going to be for you. I just loved it so much.

[B]

I loved it so much. And like, and having that thought throughout about the original wizard of Oz and that kind of legacy it has both as like a kind of a. It has a kind of queer classic sort of like the subtext of it is quite like almost like a cliche. The Friends of Dorothy or whatever. And the idea that this will be a movie and I think it's good enough to be this kind of movie that will be on TV in 30 years on Christmas Day.

[A]

Yeah, you want to be like. You want to be like, I want to be old. And for kids to be like, oh, we're not going to watch Wicked again. Like, it's such an old movie and be like, it's a classic.

[B]

It's a classic.

[A]

You watch Ariana Grande before she all was all found out about her years later, like, oh, my God, like, she's just. Everyone's so wonderful in it. Just so beautiful anyway. But like, yeah, yeah. And it's really strange to go back and think, because I remember watching the wizard of Oz for the first time and like that moment where it turns from black and white into technically she steps into Oz and it's Technicolor. Like, even though we didn't grow up with. And I think that's the kind of thing. Because I think people who were adults watching the Wizards of Oz for the first time, many of those people being like, we grew up with black and white movies and this is this genuine spectacle for us. Like, you don't understand and yet. And I can imagine then having conversations like, but will kids understand how magical like that jump from black and white to colors? But like, what? As a kid who'd only drawn up with color stuff, it was still so magical when she suddenly saw those ruby slippers step out from the house and all of us was suddenly in technical. And I think like, there's just. Oh God, I'm not to be too Ariana and Cynthia about this, but I feel like, oh, this is gonna be.

[B]

A very Ariana Cynthia podcast.

[A]

Very Ariana.

[B]

And I will hold your massive nail extension.

[A]

Please just take my claw for the.

[B]

Rest of our lives.

[A]

But like, I think it's really, I think it's really testament to like, if you can create that feeling of like that feeling of, oh my God, it's in, it's in beautiful Technicolor. And I felt that feeling of, oh my God, it's in beautiful Technicolor. Watching the Wicked movie when, when that Wicked. Like that, the, when the typography came up in that old. It's like a beautiful old Hollywood style. Like they know what they're doing. Like, they, they know what we wanted to recapture was like that feeling of magical. Isn't cinema magical? And I feel like just having that little nod to be like, this is how it used to look. You used to get though the titles up on the screen in beautiful typography. And then you would delve into the story and just being like, that's still. It still works.

[B]

Still works.

[A]

It still works. And like, but still being like, but it doesn't need to look old fashioned. Like, everything looked unbelievable.

[B]

So beautiful.

[A]

So beautiful. Like they said everything to it.

[B]

Like they were. It was just. And it also, it was like the thing of theater being that like, even if you're looking at a really expensive production, you're always working in the realm of suspended disbelief kind of thing. Like, I've seen the Wicked stage show two or three times and like the thing of like, oh, yes, this man's dressed up like an animal and then we have to fight for his civil rights.

[A]

Yes, that whole thing, that little thing.

[B]

And but you are always using kind of your imagination.

[A]

And I think that, well, that's like, that's where theater is. I think, for me, like, that's why it's really wonderful as, like, a medium because, like, it's that magical thing of you enter into a contract with the audience to go, we're gonna show you a version of this which isn't real, and you're gonna make it real with what you see in your head. In your head. And, like, that is what's so amazing about theatre. And, like, you can take and, like, kind of just activating a contract between an audience member and a stage person on stage to be like, we know this. You know this isn't a goat. We know it's not a goat, but for the next two and a half hours, this is a goat. And we're gonna fight for civil rights and people. And you will cry and you will. And like, that is fair. But what you don't have in cinema, you know, certainly you don't have that contract. There's not that thing of going, what's going to be beautiful about this is we're going to transform these disparate parts into a story right here in the barn.

[B]

And because it's on a screen, and that screen means that we know those, like, I think something at the heart of the theatre audience contract is that is on a very low level, a kernel of. I don't want to hurt those people's feelings.

[A]

You know what? We're grateful for that because, you know, some people want to hurt our feelings. That is not a universal feeling.

[B]

But the screen, the separation, the beautiful people who are much more famous and rich than you create so many opportunities for doubt and fuck this. And, like, what's so interesting to me as well is, like, the. I mean, I want this episode to be something that people can return to in 50 years when they're watching Wicked on TV.

[A]

It's the hologram version of us.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Gotten hold of it.

[B]

Yes. This episode exists on a glass tube in a museum and you pull it out and a hologram comes up.

[A]

There are no trees, but there are the holograms. And isn't that the true nature?

[B]

I know, and. And like, the, the memes and the kind of funny Internet humor around the Wicked press tour will have been completely gone. That'll be in the dust. No one will remember that. But I think we should take one minute to talk about how this film has been promoted for what feels like three years.

[A]

I know those poor performers, Honestly, I feel like they Must be going out of their absolute trees. But, like, it really has worked. Like, I feel like there is not a single person in the world who cannot see this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like every product, every item in the world is a wicked version of that.

[B]

In the ad before Wicked, it was two Google Pixel phones. One was pink and one was green.

[A]

Yeah. And they were saying, defying Gravity. We were not happy about that. Like, I've paid upwards of ten pounds today to watch Aaron Igrana Cindy.

[B]

Not two phones. Pretending, not two phones.

[A]

Whatever creative decision, they decided to not cast them as phones in the movie. And that was a good one, in my opinion.

[B]

But something that's been coming up, particularly in the Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo interviews is the sort of, like, the way they keep crying, the way they are so unbelievably sincere, and the way the Internet has reacted to that sincerity. That sincerity has made me. Literally has made me think, oh, I got about a year left of this. I got about a year left of caring too much about dumb shit and crying on my. And then it's out. I gotta find something new.

[A]

What is in you? Do you think you'll be like. Cause you care too much about the crying? Or you're like, I hate the crying.

[B]

No, I just see myself in the crying. Yeah, Yeah. I see, like, what they are doing, like, holding hands and, like, her holding her little claw and saying things like, people online have really been holding space for the lyrics. And then Cynthia just, like, grabbing her chest and saying, I didn't know they were doing that. Please check out the meme if no one's seen it. But, like, I was like, oh, yeah, like, people on some. It's like, it feels like a drag version of what I do in this podcast of just, like, saying nonsense about, like, no, you're not about bullshit.

[A]

No, because I just. I think it is. I think basically they are. I will not speak ill of either of these beautiful women, obviously, but I feel like you are incredibly, like, articulate. Understand, like, getting to the point of why you wish to grab the claw. I think understanding the motive of the claw is absolutely crucial. Without motive of the claw, it is simply a mad claw grab. But I never feel like you. You grab. I grab a claw unwittingly.

[B]

No, that's true. I always mean it when I grab a claw.

[A]

You really explain carefully why you must grab the claw. I think for those girls, like, bless them, they've been answering the same question about why divine gravity is good for, like, four years now. And, like, the whole idea is out of answers. They're just like, I don't. It is not. I hate it.

[B]

And they're so tired.

[A]

They're so tired. And all their outfits, are you kidding me? They're probably chafing, like, all the. It looks really heavy. Oh, my God. Like, I don't. They must have seen it so many times. I mean, I could watch obviously this film every day now and I will for the rest of my life.

[B]

Yeah. But like, it really reminds me because we've had, you know, you've been on this podcast before talking about Chicago.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The best film ever. The best film I've ever made. And something we spoke about on that podcast is that something we both had very clear memories of was the press campaign of Chicago about how Chicago Subtitle they're working so hard over here. It was like, I can just, I can see. See Catherine Zeta Jones in her practice outfit. I can see Richard Gere teaching himself how to tap dance. And it really struck me about like two massive movie musical failures recently, which were that Batman musical.

[A]

Oh, the Bat. Oh, yeah. Joker. Folie a de folieu de. Don't put French in the title. That's mine.

[B]

Don't do that.

[A]

Don't do it. Don't do it.

[B]

But also the Mean Girls musical. And in both senses, there was a sense that, like, we can trick the audience into coming to a musical. And what they failed to understand and what Wicked and Chicago both understood is that, like, there's nothing more embarrassingly sincere than musical theater. And so we must come out full throated. Like, we're working so hard. We're crying so much.

[A]

We're crying so much. We're grabbing every part of each other because we love this so much. I think. No, I think that's true. And I think, like, I think you have to kind of, you have to kind of respect it because it's incredibly difficult. It's so hard to do. Like, they will have worked. They have, you know, both worked incredibly hard. And like Chicago, just like you can see, like, they want it to be good so much. And like everyone's working so hard, as you say, like, when you go into a theater, you're like, God, these guys are working hard. At least give them a little clap at the end, like, if only out of embarrassment. And sometimes that is why. Whereas I think, yeah, people. I think people are very understandably. You know, we have this conversation all the time at musical theater. Like, do people hate musical theater or do they just hate people who showcase their Feelings so, so sincerely and earnestly. And it's okay to hate that it is often bad. But like, if it's done well, like, it's just so magical. It is just so magical when it's done with like such care and professionalism and preciseness. And the songs are so good and everyone's pulling together. Like people say about like musical theatre, it's like the most collaborative medium in that you need so many sets of skills for it not to be crap. And if any of the sets of skills are crap, everything else is pulled down. Like there is no. Well, it's, you know, raised on each other's shoulders. Like, no, there is a drop of poison in any element of musical theater.

[B]

You got one lighting guy who's just not phoning it in, you know, one.

[A]

Sound guy who doesn't fucking put the mic up at the right time. One costume that the ripway doesn't quite work, you know, any of it. It's all such on a fucking knife edge of embarrassment as it is. One little slip and the whole thing kind of falls apart. So like you can see why people just go, oh, fuck this.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

No, absolutely not. Fuck this. But like, I just feel like, yeah, with, with this movie, with Chicago, with like the classic movie musicals, I feel like what's really good about Wicked as a starting point for a movie is that it sits so cleanly into a different world, which I think is always the best way place for a musical to sit. A movie musical. Because, like, yeah, as discussed, if you've not listened to the Chicago episode of the podcast, it's a great episode, it's a lovely episode. But we talk quite a lot about how for me, Chicago is so successful because a good movie musical, I think it's most likely to succeed if it exists in a heightened state of reality anyway. Because musicals are by their very nature a heightened, more embarrassing state of reality. And I think it's really hard for musicals, for movie musicals to exist. Not in that place. I think for that reason, I think west side Story, though, I think it is a beautiful movie. I still kind of get embarrassed.

[B]

It feels silly. I don't like it very much myself.

[A]

I think it's. I think it's this opening and like the set pieces are so phenomenal, but it's just really hard to have that same like kind of kitchen sink realism alongside people bursting into song.

[B]

It's like, why Maria jets versus Sharks, man. It's never, never not ridiculous.

[A]

It's never not ridiculous. And like on stage doesn't matter because everyone's fucking dancing and it's a stage and, like, you can get away with it. But, like, on a screen, I feel like, yeah, Wicked set itself up. And one reason it's such a smart, like, idea to begin with, in that it exists not only, like, in a heightened world, in that, like, Oz itself is a crazy world, but it's a. We already know because of the wizard of Oz. Like, it is not embarrassing, that world, because we watched it growing up. We're not scared of it. We're not thinking it's embarrassing.

[B]

It is, like, firmly in the firmament of sort of like 20th century cultural history kind of thing. It will never go away.

[A]

It will never die. And you know those characters really well. And, like, you know the shapes of the costumes, what it's supposed to look like. And, like, it kind of sits in that, again, quite familiar kind of sexy cogs and velvet.

[B]

Sexy cogs and not quite steampunk.

[A]

Not quite steampunk, like. Yes, just to the sort of. Like. That's the sexy cousin of steampunk where it's like, everything's cogs but nothing's oil.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

There's not a sully drag to be seen. It's just like glinting jewelry on.

[B]

Everything is cogs but nothing is oil. That's big. I might have to clutch the claw.

[A]

If you're clutching the claw right now. That's correct.

[B]

Wow. But, like. And the thing, the rendering of this space, Oz, which has, like, again, on the stage show, exists mostly in your imagination. Right. In the same way that Les Mis is just a bundle of chairs on stage for most of it. And if you're looking at the original film of Oz, obviously there's the iconic scenes of Munchkinland and the Yellow Brick Road and the poppies and. But it is very much like you could. If you bang a door, the scenery is wobbling. Do you know what I mean? But it's still beautiful because it exists in that beautiful tradition of painted scenery in Lushnius.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The kind of old, odd, old Hollywood of like.

[B]

And that in itself is romantic, but. But this Oz is just like. I cannot believe how fucking stunning it is.

[A]

So, so good.

[B]

And not in, like, a gross CGI way.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

There's beautiful. There is some cgi, but, like, beautiful sets.

[A]

Yeah, I think also just, like, it's beautiful sets, it's beautiful costumes. And like, as we sort of have said, it's really. Does not lean away from this has come from theater. Like that opening sequence of Good news. There's so much choreography and, like, there's, like, a dance in the square and, like, you know, people, like, throwing things. Like, people throwing flower in the air. You know, that classic thing of, like. And I think just from the very beginning, it says, this is a big fucking musical. Like, it is not. We don't know the characters yet. We don't really know anything. It's just. It's just villagers celebrating, skimping around in a way that, like, could be very embarrassing. And, like, they could have just been like, you know what? Let's just get to Glinda. Let's get to the stuff that we know.

[B]

But, like, they really hang on it.

[A]

They really hang on it because they want to set out their store being like, everything in this movie is going to be perfect. Like, every step, every. Like, you cannot touch this for how. How much we're going to showcase every discipline. It's like the discipline of dance, the discipline of costume, the discipline of videography. Like, the discipline of, like. Like, every. It just feels like it's like fucking Olympics, man. And it's just tens across the board. Like, I just don't see how you could. Not even if you don't like musical theater or don't, like, you know, what a fantasy story is coming out of that not being, like, I understand what these disciplines are for now. I understand how they intersect, and I understand why people dedicate their lives to these skills.

[B]

Gosh. Wow. Wow.

[A]

And also, I feel like. I feel like we are a biased audience because, like, obviously we are people who have also dedicated our lives to this sort of business and telling of these stories and passing on, like, creating spectacle and emotion and love and joy and the rest of it. But, like, really, I. It's. I think it's. You know, it's been a hard. It's been a hard all year for everyone. And I really do think, regardless of what a tangible effect big, huge creations like this have on, like, ultimately the.

[B]

Mood of the general populace.

[A]

But you can. You do feel like we have to. This is what we have to keep making. Like, we have to give this level of sort of seriousness to these disciplines to create these spectacles. Because, like, so many people follow this for their spark of joy in their lives, like, to kind of pull them out of it. I still have gotten quite. Gotten quite quickly. Please keep on.

[B]

Please keep on.

[A]

But, like, I feel like that's how I felt particularly, like, you know, for a personal perspective, like, you know, this year has been a crazy year for me. And, like, the Next year is gonna be. Is looking, you know, wonderful but scary and that we're taking our show to Broadway and we have no idea how that's gonna go. And it can all feel both very frightening and also very silly at the same time, being like, why am I so scared of doing my little silly songs with my friends? And then you kind of watch something like a huge epic creation like this and kind of go, this is so many people's days and nights and days and nights and days and nights of toil and endless. And it may. And you know, the things that inspired me was just like me just being like, thank you. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that. It was so nice for me. A humble 10am audience member. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. And like, if I may compliment my friends even more, which is essentially what this podcast is for.

[A]

So important.

[B]

We had this conversation the other day because Operation Mincemeat, which is a. Your musical and set in World War II and has a song in it which is a sea shanty that you made up.

[A]

Yes. Oh, no.

[B]

What was the name of that song?

[A]

It's called Salon Boys.

[B]

It's called Salon Boys. It is a made up song that doesn't exist. That is a supposed sea shanty between naval people in the Second World War and recently the rnli, who are the Volunteer Lifeboat association or whatever, they have their own little private choir and the volunteer choir. And for their remembrance, Remembrance Day, you.

[A]

Can say, no, I enjoy. I much prefer. It's very nice to hear.

[B]

They went to Paddington with their big display of poppies of everybody who had like, lost their lives pulling people out of the sea. Like, could you think. Could you think of a more noble thing to do than to pull someone out of the ocean who is drowning and like. And like that. But they chose your song. And like.

[A]

Yeah. And they say they sang a Farrington station. Yeah. And they, like, they didn't even. They wouldn't tell us.

[B]

You.

[A]

I mean, like, we. They told us. They sent us an email after the fact to be like, just so you know, we did this and here's the video. And like, it was just the most moving video.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was.

[A]

We're really grabbing the claw right now. We're really grabbing the claw, guys.

[B]

And the thing that was so emotional about it, because when you, when you're in your own world of making whatever it is that you make, whether it's novels or TV or stage shows or whatever, you make arguments for why it should exist and why we need this kind of story right now, for whatever reason, we need this kind of story right now. But you mostly think you're deluding yourself on some level of like, really, you're just kind of making up stuff to get attention.

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to get a real job, so please let me do this other thing.

[B]

Exactly. And then you see the people who have chosen this song that you wrote as their anthem for what the thing that is they do, because what they're good at is pulling people out of the ocean. But what they're not good at is expressing why it's important but somebody else has. And it just, it was one of those moments for me where it's like, oh, this is the power of art. Because it expresses things that the people who are going through them aren't always able to do. And. And like, I think of like how much, you know, the. For example, everything about abortion rights often goes back to people wearing Handmaid's Tale costumes because we need art to create shorthand for like, you know, for emotions we can't enunciate. And like, I do feel like. And I think to go back to holding space for the lyrics of Applying gravity, like there. It does feel like this is an important story to be telling right now of like how like fear and hate mongering are so effective in galvanizing people and controlling them.

[A]

I think like when we. That final sequence of Divine Gravity, I think neither of us, like every single. Our muscles, all of our body was tense for like that last 15 minutes because it was just so magnificent and like Ariana Grande and Simval Vera were so glorious. But like, the choices they made in terms of like, they added like a kind of hot air balloon sort of fight and like, you know, we can again talk a bit more about like the differences between the productions, if that's useful. But like, it really just felt like all you wanted her to do was fucking fly and get out of there and be like. And you just. I think even regardless of like, it's a commentary on this, you know, racism or immigration, whatever. Like, there's something very base and real about being like, there is danger and you will get out of it. And I. Oh no, there is danger and you will be brave. You know, just like that thing of. That very primal thing of being like, things will be hard and you will find a way to best them because that's basically what the song is sort of about. And I think, you know, that's. It's very beautiful. I think that we're still coming up with Ways to say that. Yeah. And that we still kind of need to hear it and we still react so strongly when we do hear it and that, like, yeah, we just sit there completely out of our mouth being like, this is hard, Elphaba, but you will be brave.

[B]

You know, I believe in you. I will see you next year for the next movie to watch Ub Brave.

[A]

I will pay this twice the amount I would yet follow any of the film for the second part of this movie to watch you be brave to watch Ub Braved.

[B]

I never get credit for it.

[A]

No, no, no. Yeah, it was really. It's. It's very magnificent. What was your first introduction to the Wicked, wicked world?

[B]

Do you know what? I think I just. I moved here 13 years ago.

[A]

I remember.

[B]

You remember?

[A]

Well, because you're my best.

[B]

So, yeah, I don't know if anyone, as I said, I said this in the podcast world, but I live here because of you. Because you ran an internship for film journalism.

[A]

What a situation.

[B]

Thirteen years ago.

[A]

Yeah. And I was like 23 and felt like I was the oldest, toughest shit in the pizz. And yeah, I had an internship for some reason that I wasn't allowed to, like, I was being. I was told to run an internship being 23, unknown and like, yeah, I interviewed you over the phone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were in Ireland and we couldn't really even hear each other. I don't know you on some banger old phone somewhere. But we had a conversation, much like we're still doing today. And I was just like, we gotta get this girl here. We gotta get her here. She's the voice of a journalist. And lo and behold, you are. Hold the cloth.

[B]

Give me the claw.

[A]

Give me the cloth. Golly.

[B]

And yeah, I mean, yeah, and like, I. I think one of my sort of, like, priorities as any person who lives in a different country or even a different city who moves to London, it's like, well, I'm gonna get returns. I'm gonna show up to the theater at 10am and I'm gonna get me some returns. And so the first, first two things I saw were Les Mis and Wicked. And then like, I saw it again maybe three months later when my mum and sister came to visit. And I've seen it again since then with friends who've been visiting. And do you feel, do you feel.

[A]

Like you had the same emotional reaction to the stage show, seeing it for the first time as you did to the movie now, that sort of having sat with it and knowing it better, do you feel like novelty or experience work has sort of whatever.

[B]

You know what I felt like when I first saw it as a stage show, I was full of admiration for it. And then because I knew nothing about it other than it was supposed to be good. And I remember losing it at the Animals stuff. Like, I was going. I remember going in quite like, you know, 21 years old, being like, oh, it's so cool the way they've done this.

[A]

Yeah. Imagine that. But this.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, and the way they kind of trapdoor Dorothy in the first, like, opening few seconds. Right.

[A]

Or something.

[B]

Or maybe they do it in the second half. I can't remember.

[A]

I can't remember. But, yeah, I think what's really. Well, just as a sidebar, I think the original book that the musical is based on is really. I don't know if you've read it, but it's incredibly dark, quite complicated. Like, much more of a heavy political sort of satire, and doesn't have anywhere near as much to do with the sort of wizard of Oz movie than the stage show does. I feel like what the musical does incredibly well is bring Back in Fright from the Top, the kind of Dorothy Gale sort of like, it hooks you in with that stuff. And then there's quite a lot of references like the Cowardly Lion Cub and the Tin man and the Scarecrow, kind of. None of that's really in the original book in the same way. And I think it's. I'm very fascinated by it as a trans. How do you make a book into a musical and then into a movie? Because it's like such the. I think it's a really interesting testament to how different mediums require different things of the teller. Like. And I think. Cause the book, it spans lots more years. And there's like Fiero and Fierro is. You know, the Prince character is not this attractive guy. He's like this kind of strange prince. And like, he ends up in political exile and, like. And I think in a book you can do a lot more kind of many years past. You know what I mean? Like, you can have a map in the front. We love a book with a map. And I can feel a lot more. I think you can do epic timescale in a way that in theater, I think it's quite hard to do because it's all. In theater, it's all forward motion. It's all the present moment. And I feel like if you tried to do. Then eight years went by, Ms. Elphabert would be kind of letting all the air out of the Balloon. I think they did just. And I think the book writer Stephen Schwartz, the music writer Stephen Schwartz, and the book writer Winnie Holzman did an amazing job of kind of recognizing what the difference is between a book and a musical and what. And how much. And how much you have to kind of, I think, anyway, like, truncate that timeline to be like, you know what, it's university. Then they found the wizard, and then it's fucking go, go, go, go, go. In a way that I think it could have gone quite wrong because, like, changing a book so significantly to make a musical is quite a. It's like a ballsy thing to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they do change quite a lot, but. And I tried to research kind of like, whether the original writer of the book and Stephen Schwartz ever, like, had big chats about, like, plot and story. And it seems like, not really. It seems like not really. They were just like, we like the idea of this witch thing and we wanted to make a musical based on that. They are still true, I think, to the, like, the animal stuff and the sort of civil rights kind of mirroring and stuff is all there. But, yeah, it's very interesting how the book would not benefit from being more like the musical, and the musical would not benefit from being more like the book, which I think is kind of very fascinating. Anyway, sorry. So you saw.

[B]

Yes, but I remember finding it exciting, and I think I thought it was gonna be much camper than it was because, like, Glinda comes down in the bubble and she's so instantly funny, and then it's like, oh, you kinda got this bullying plot. But, you know, it's not. It's sad, but it's not destroying you or anything. And then something. I remember this moment of when you see the goat professor in a cage at last, and he can't talk anymore and he's just bleating. I just. I completely fell apart. And, like, that was the moment I was like, oh, it has me by the throat, this musical. I've just been sitting here kind of appreciating the craftiness of it and the campiness of it, and then it's some. That's when it kind of gets you sort of thing. And, like, I think the idea of being silenced is such a powerful one, and especially within a musical.

[A]

Yeah, I think to go back to the film, I think that was done really well and really effectively. I think the song Something's Bad, I think that's what it's called. I'm sorry, the song that Dr. Delmond sings with Elphaba in the stage version, it's just with her. So it's only. He's having a chat with her about how bad Oz has gotten. And in the movie version, she sort of follows him to this, you know, this little cabin where there's quite a few animals in there, all of whom are stressed out. And I think that was really bloody stressed out about not having any rights. All right, guys, we get it. But I think that was actually, again, like, that was really powerful. I think. I think that was a good widening of this sort of stage world to be kind of like, it's not enough that there's just this one goat who is going through some stuff. Like, you really got a sense of a wider community of people of animals, all of whom were being gradually stripped of the. Of what was. Of their civil rights. And it was very, very, like, affecting.

[B]

Yeah. And particularly for the movie, they didn't go, like, sort of anthropological, humanoid type of, like, I was expecting a sort of a CGified man kind of thing or like kind of a Lion King treatment or whatever. Lion King, the stage show. And then to have him just be like a CGI rendered goat. I was like, oh, this isn't gonna work. And then it was. Oh, fuck, it completely works.

[A]

Yeah. I think also we are. We were colored from that because we'd just seen the trailer. Steve Fasser. Oh, yeah, you were talking about Steve Kogan and the Penguin.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. We saw two trailers, two trailers featuring our.

[A]

Both alike in dignity. Yeah. But we, you know, I think there's a real, you know, for us as millennials who love the cartoon versions, like, it's really hard to have affection for. I think the kind of very true to life CG versions of animals and the Lion King and like, why can't you just do it in a cute way? But I think for this, actually, it makes complete sense and it's definitely the right call.

[B]

I feel like we're skipping over that sort of first moment where Glinda arrives. Like, at what point did you completely know we were in safe hands with Ariana Grande?

[A]

That's such a good question. Because I feel like, yeah, let's talk about the people a little bit. She. I feel like so early on, like, I think. I feel. I feel like actually, I can't remember what her first, like, comic beat. Oh. I think it's like when she's like, she's. She's done her speech, she's done the Let us be glad, all that kind of stuff, and she's about to go. And then she, like, puts her little foot down on, like, the. The pedal for the bubble to arrive and she's like, fucking come on. And just like that little glimpse of, like, the work engagement is done and I get to go home.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it was just a really, like, really spectacularly done. And like, I. I can't believe how funny she's so funny she is in this movie. Like, what a physical perform. Like a physical comedian.

[B]

Every, like, unbelievable. And like. So what was your relationship to Ariana Grande before this?

[A]

I mean, minimal, personally.

[B]

Personally, minimal.

[A]

I feel like. Yeah, yeah, I feel like, like, obviously an incredible singer, but I was definitely like, huh, what an interesting choice. I hope we don't lose out on a funny Glinda, because it is a funny part and it's been played by such, like. Yeah, like Kirsten Chenoweth and so many, like, sort of comedy musical titans in the past. And she's just like, you know, obviously, incredibly gorgeous, very thin, beautiful pop star. But we were wrong.

[B]

Oh, my God, we were wrong.

[A]

Wrong. I think, like, obviously she was a.

[B]

Nickelodeon kid, so that kind of comic timing. Say this about Nickelodeon. I know that children's TV has been revealed to be an absolute hell pit, but they never put someone on TV who wasn't funny.

[A]

No, no, they. They.

[B]

It wasn't like Disney Kidnapped, where it's just like, we made you in a factory where we feed Bambi in one end and you come out the other. It was like everybody who was on Nickelodeon in the 90s was a funny fucking fucker.

[A]

So, so charismatic. And, like, I think that was the thing. I feel like I hadn't realized that the level of charisma and also that kind of. But like, that. So perfect for Glinda. That was just kind of like the. Kind of. Not that almost like the. Such pure, clean sort of surface of it. Yeah, just like frictionless and then. But just with kind of like. Like almost Rick. Jennifer Aniston's ability to suddenly be a physical comedian. I've got a big. My heart for Jennifer Aniston. I feel like she is very lost in friends in terms of how funny she is physically, because she's too beautiful and they don't use her enough. But for the episode where Julie comes back from the airport and she's got the flowers on her head and she's like, Julie. I keep that in my heart the whole year round. It's so funny. Anyway, but I got it out.

[B]

Julie.

[A]

Julie. It's Julie.

[B]

It's Julie.

[A]

It's not just Julie. It's very fantastic. Like, it's perfection. And I felt very similarly about Ariana Grande.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

During this, like, this sort of effortless, elegant beauty and then ability to kind of just really be a. Be a dipshit.

[B]

Yeah. I was also put in mind, oddly, of Brittany Murphy.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

There was something in the kind of the big chocolate brown eyes and the sort of strange little comic readings and finding notes that weren't there originally and.

[A]

Like, finding, I think, particularly, like, unpopular about the end of Popular. They have, like, a sort of extended ending of Popular where she just gets to dance around. When that was happening, I was like, huh? But I was like, you know what? Yeah, go off, go off. This is your moment, Arianna. Like.

[B]

Yeah, that bit where she is doing that Homer Simpson sort of, like, thing on the floor where she's just, like, kicking her legs and rotating herself around.

[A]

Full pants, fully out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wearing a pink sort of, like, thing. Yeah. It's deranged. It's so good.

[A]

Yeah, it's really, really good. I think she. She's. Yeah. Absolutely perfect for it. And I feel like. Yeah. Does not. That doesn't necessarily come across in, like, the press and promo around it, just how. How funny she is.

[B]

How funny she is.

[A]

Yeah. I think. Yeah. By comparison, Cynthia, I think, is really.

[B]

It's a harder role.

[A]

I think it's a harder part. And I think I was reading some stuff by Stephen Schwartz about the writing of these two characters and how Glinda, kind of the voice of Glinda, came kind of more naturally to the book writer, because I think she's just funny. It's easy to write a part like Glinda in that she's very clearly flawed. So I think. So anyone who is clearly flawed is very helpful for comedy. You know, Operation Mincemeat is full of deeply flawed people for that reason, because it's really easy and fun to write gags about. And for people who have a very clear, obvious flaw and like Glinda, it's like, she's beautiful, she's deluded, she's incredibly, you know, popular, but ultimately she's truly in turmoil about who she actually is. Whereas Elphaba comes into the story really knowing who she is. And, like, there's not a lot, really, of growth for Elphaba in this story in that she kind of comes in knowing who she is and kind of ends knowing where she is. I think that is a harder of both a writer and a performer to kind of find moments. But I think what she does bring is like, it's incredibly warm and I think very sincere. And I feel like she balances that thing of having kind of disgust for her fellow man but also kind of wanting to be part of that world really well. But I think like, yeah, it's just the nature of the part really that she doesn't like. I feel like in that kind of the kind of crux. The kind of friendship crux moment, which is obviously during Dancing Through Life when she gets the hat and then she comes to the. The ballroom, which again, to do a pause in terms of how they did it, I think was so wonderful. That ballroom or in Beneath the Fish and you know, I think just really true to the, to the music, the song. I think, you know, it's a really plotty song and having written a bunch of plotty songs like they are, they can be really difficult because you feel like you are like you're losing momentum with every plot beat and you kind of just want to push through that. And it's like you've got to have the bit with Nessa Rose and Bach and you've got to have where they meet Fiera and then they go to the ballroom and like there's a lot of different beats you have to hit. And I feel like, you know, I could see why in a stage version, whatever, not done right, you can feel a little bit like, oh my God, you're still doing the kind of a turn over here and then there's a little bit. But I feel like the number of locations they gave that, like having that there was like that boat that they took from the kind of undefeated.

[B]

What starts in the library, right? That amazing library.

[A]

Library sequences like Hogwarts.

[B]

Suck my dick. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Like Hogwarts meets Greece.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, it was just like, oh my.

[B]

God, it's so wild. The rotating irritating thing at the end.

[A]

Like John Travolta just like he. I mean, Jonathan Bailey just giving us John Travolta in Greece in that thing just like thrusting towards every man or woman that was in his path. And like, so that was a wonderful location. And then you had the kind of the boat waiting by the harbor and then coming to that and sneaking out of the sky across the water and then to have this gorgeous, unbelievable sort of fish palace.

[B]

Fish palace.

[A]

Fish finally was my fish palace. But anyway, to get to my. Yeah, but to sort of return to the point of like. Yeah, so you have the crux of this friendship moment where it all turns around for where you really see Glinda's character make a choice and go, oh, this is changed. This experience has changed me. And I will be different now because of this. Whereas in that moment, for Elphaba, it's kind of just going, you guys are dicks. Be different. And then they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I guess the small amount of change for her is like she bends enough because her sister has been. You know. Cause Glinda's ostensibly been kind to her sister that she asks Mara Model to give Glynda lessons and she takes the hat and she, you know, she wears the hat. But I feel like that's nowhere near the kind of character concession or character development that you. It's not mirroring Glinda's in that moment. I feel like. Yeah, in all of those ways, it makes her a harder character to kind of go on that journey with, even though she is the main character because she has such a formed sense of self. From the beginning, I think the only way you could do it is if you gave her less sense of self and be. If she was really vile or if she was a dick. I guess what they do do is they have her that she can't control her magic. That's her thing. But again, that doesn't need. That's exciting. That's an exciting trait.

[B]

I guess if you're getting anything from Elphaba in that scene, the biggest thing you're getting is relief because they have that scene, which to me was very much the inverse of the final scenes of Romy and Michelle's high school reunion. There's almost nothing that makes me cry more than those two craz crazy women dancing to Time After Time and letting Alan come and join.

[A]

Yeah, that is so nice.

[B]

But. But the kind of the function of that dance is like, these are two best friends who have fallen out and this is how they get back together. Whereas this is kind of an inverted thing of, like, these are two people who hate each other who are going to become friends through this dance. And like, it was. It made me sort of to go back to your point of, like, the. The material having to relate to the format.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In very specific ways. It's like. Like what you don't get in cinema is the suspension of disbelief. But what you do get is, like, the opportunity to linger.

[A]

Yeah, that's so true. And also, I guess what you get is also the opportunity to have small moments that feel huge. So I think, as you say. Yeah, like that dance at the gym when Elphaba, she's Dancing with Glinda. And you kind of get that long pan of her looking over and her tears falling and Glinda saying, it's okay, I guess. Yeah. You would never have that in the stage show because there's just simply no room for that kind of specificity and sort of smallness. But that to demonstrate kind of like. I guess that is the kind of resolution of her arc, which is she doesn't care about people. Oh, no, of course, she does care what people think, because she's letting out this kind of feeling in front of Glinda. So I think, yeah, I guess in some ways that's the kind of movie's answer to the less of a journey that Elphaba gets to do in that she kind of begins hardened against the world a bit, and she won't let people see it in that. And in the dance, she kind of, whether she wants to or not, lets her emotion get the better of her. And Glinda is the one there to kind of pick her up from the ground.

[B]

Yeah. And so the release you get is kind of an emotional one, because, first of all, this character has been so pent up and so defensive, and now she kind of melts. But also, it's like you've been watching people be, like, addict to this poor girl.

[A]

I feel like, I have to say, for ages. For ages. I feel like. I think what's good about. What's good about the theatre is that I feel like in the theatre, single items are incredibly powerful because you do not get in stage, lots of prop. Well, you do, but you don't get anywhere near the kind of majesty of the entire world of Oz.

[B]

Yes. And there's an object.

[A]

There's an object. It's automatically imbued with kind of power and status. And so I think in the theater version, that hat, Elphaba's hat, you know, when Glinda gives her that object as an audience, you kind of. You kind of automatically just instinctively kind of go, this is a powerful object. This is. That will mean something important to us. Because there's just. In terms of sparsity, there just aren't that many objects to focus on. And so I think for me, her wearing that hat and being. And being sort of mocked by the school group in the musical stage version felt very correct. Felt very much like, this is an object that is powerful. It is the wrong object. Everyone's now looking at this object, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whereas, yes, I feel like a little. Because this is a film that it's filled with unbelievably beautiful objects everywhere. For me, that item did not have quite enough resonant power to be like, I don't really believe that this entire dance, this entire club has been rendered speechless.

[B]

There's a giraffe on the sack. But this is the problem.

[A]

Like, it's just. I didn't really believe. I feel like there was no really way, but no way to get around.

[B]

It because it's such a canon event in that canon event.

[A]

But I think what it does really nice is kind of go. It's just interesting that, like, on a stage, I feel like there's no friction to that scene for me whatsoever. It's just like, because of that unspoken thing of an object handed to a performer, you buy into that same contract of like, yeah, okay, we spend a lot of time with. This hat is important. Whereas I think in the screen, if you dilute that by having everything be so gorgeous. A club coming to a standstill because a girl's wearing a hat just didn't.

[B]

Quite make sense to me. You're right.

[A]

That and for so long as well. Like, they were laughing at that hat. I was like, have you seen these kind outfit? Come on, guys. It's just like, there are fish in the ceiling.

[B]

There are fish in the ceiling.

[A]

There's a baboon wailing on the keys. Like, I don't think I believe that, but I don't think it's necessary.

[B]

I also believe there was no way to get around it.

[A]

No, exactly. There's no way to get around it. They did exactly what they needed to do. And I think it is really, it's more than anything, I think, kind of testament to how nice it is to be in the theater being like, this is a special hat. You must care. You must care about whether this hat is good or bad. And we won't tell you until the important moment.

[B]

Like, the meaning of the hat will change.

[A]

The meaning of the hat will change. Like, I think they did an amazing job of, like, I felt like, I felt the stakes of their personal relationship and I felt like those people hated her. And like, like all of that was played gorgeously. But for me, the inciting thing of that being that she wore the wrong hat. I was like, this is too grand a movie for this to be what this is. But. Yeah, and. Yeah, but I thought they're both great. And I think to go back to old Jonathan Bailey, who is now like a. He's a musical theater.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sort of old hand now. He was in company that was here.

[B]

Oh, Right. Oh, I saw that.

[A]

Yeah, he's. He's like with the.

[B]

With. With Girl Company.

[A]

Girl Company, Yes, I saw Girl Company. And he. And he was. He was, yeah, one of the leads in that. And he was obviously gorgeous in that as well, I think. What's. He's like, obviously this. This is kind of an obvious thing to say, but, like, it's really lovely to have such a charismatic lead. I mean, he's got so much charisma, he's got so much chemistry with everyone. And to be a very, like, out gay man and like, very publicly, comfortably gay. And like, every woman in a man in the world just wants to fuck him. And I think that's really nice. And that is also the power of musical theatre, the power of musical theater.

[B]

Letting gay men have a chance to.

[A]

Be longed for by everybody, every single person. Let him roll around that John Travolta bookcase and get fucked by everyone in the room.

[B]

Maybe this is a silly question to ask because, like, I know. I don't know. I don't know if you're the kind of person who would even care about this, but, like, did you feel that sort of rankling of like, you know, musical theater actors who originate these roles often don't get to play them kind of thing when the film comes around?

[A]

That's such a good question. I feel like it depends so much on the circumstance because, like, you know, obviously the people who do this role, Adele, Ida Menzel, Haddan Zeep, gorgeous Ida Menzel, and Kristin Chenoweth, who of course do have.

[B]

Okay, now this is the actual spoiler part, because if somebody had told me about this, I would have punched them in the fucking head.

[A]

So if you. If you actually haven't seen the film, then they. May God have mercy.

[B]

We're making space for you to pause.

[A]

Or go away or whatever, but they are in one shot. Day in the Emerald City. And we both absolute.

[B]

We actually screamed in that empty square.

[A]

In our empty, empty Leicester Square Theater at 10am so squealing to no one.

[B]

I couldn't. And at first I thought it was gonna be like, maybe just a pop in. But then they do the whole number. They do the whole number and they.

[A]

Get to, like, stand with their girls. And like, yes, that was so nice.

[B]

But.

[A]

And I feel like, you know that and. But I can't believe that they would ever. Not that they have, but, like, you know, the gestation period of these films, these projects are so long. I feel like if this had been made 10 years ago, then they absolutely would have played those parts or, you know, but now it wouldn't be appropriate for. To do it. And I think on the. On the. On the negative side, that. A negative side of that. There was a movie of Dear Evan Hansen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which I don't know if you've seen. No, I haven't seen it. I've not seen it either. But, you know, it's quite. It's a very famous musical. Lots of beautiful songs. And the guy who originated that part, Ben Platt, did play the. The guy in the movie, but unfortunately, he'd aged out of it by that point. You know, he's supposed to be a teenager. And then when he. When he was in the movie, it was his sort of twenties. And, like, I think they tried to do some, like, technological agent.

[B]

Have you noticed that they've done that for Robert De Niro. They've done that for Harrison Ford, for Indiana Jones. They've done that for this guy. I have not seen one woman get her face smoothed by technology yet.

[A]

Do you think it's because, like, no.

[B]

One'S, like, putting Judi Dench through the filter, making her young.

[A]

Make Judy sexy again.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, no, we'll just replace her. But the men we can't replace. Robert De Niro cannot be replaced.

[A]

We cannot unearth that tree.

[B]

It's like Treebeard in Lord of the Rings.

[A]

Yeah, let's just fucking dig him up and move them to a location we need. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, you're right, because there's too many women. Women forever. Replace the women with younger women. But, like. Yeah, I feel like it. I'm trying to imagine what that film would have been like if they cast Idina Menzel and Kristin Chenoweth.

[B]

No, not even Idina Menzel, but, like, obviously, because that wouldn't really.

[A]

Oh, do you mean, like, people who are playing them now? Yeah, I see, I see, I see. Well, Cynthia Alfiera is a Broadway star. Like, she has come through theaters. I don't know. I can't actually. I don't actually know if she's played Elphaba or not. But, like, she certainly has paid her, like, Broadway due. So I feel like she. She sort of.

[B]

As you will soon.

[A]

As I will when I play her. And so I think. But. But you're right. I don't. I don't know whether. I suspect. I suspect there was a. There was a desire to both honor the Broadway tradition it came from, but also cast someone incredibly, incredibly famous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just because that feels like the best of both Worlds.

[B]

Because I remember there being so much cynicism around Ariana Grande being cast when it first happened. Cause I think she has sort of. I've never liked her music because it's just the kind of whispery sex music is not really, for me, sexy children music. I don't. Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. And so the idea of. And kind of more in a kind of R and B space or whatever. So the idea of her playing such a kind of squeaky clean comic kind of role was such a surprising weird vibe to a lot of people. And just. I feel great for her that she's just like, no, I am the most perfect version of this. It could be.

[A]

She's so pathetically ideal. I feel there's quite a lot of pop stars recently have come out of musical theater. Like Renee Rapp, I think was a. Was. She was. She was in Mean Girls on Broadway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's.

[B]

She's great as well. She's.

[A]

She's amazing. Like, I feel like. Yeah, there's. There's really. It's really fun. And also, I feel like female pop stars are so. Are also becoming more theatrical. Like, you know, Chapel Rowan spent a carpenter. Like, they are such, like, kind of teeny, teeny theory girls. Like, the shows are so theatrical, particularly Chapel Roan, obviously. Like, I feel there's a real. It's a real time right now for, like, fucking nerdy, hot theater girls.

[B]

You just want, like. Like, I. I love the return of the showgirl.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The showgirl on her own terms. You know, it really fills me with light. I just love it.

[A]

It really feels like girls for girls. You know what I mean?

[B]

Girls for girls.

[A]

Men don't care about Chapel Roan wearing a suit of armor and, like, having a big sword and setting things on fire. Women do. Women do. And the gay men do. And that is. That is who it's for.

[B]

That's who's meant to care.

[A]

That is who it's for. You know, I think that's. It's just. Yeah, it's really beautiful. But to answer your question, if they made a film of mincemeat, yes, I would be in it. That's the advantage of casting yourself as a late 30s, early 40s man. I will be that tree.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I will be Robert De Niro in that situation.

[B]

Oh, my God, you're gonna age into you and Montague.

[A]

Into Montague.

[B]

Wow. Because.

[A]

Yeah, but that's true, though. But, like, you know, but that to be in entire seriousness, like, if we go to Broadway and it goes well, and then they're like, 10 years from now, they want to do a movie. We all want to do it. We'll be like, we'll surely be done by then. But who knows? Maybe I'll be like, no one can play this part of Semi. Renee Rapp. Get away.

[B]

Get away.

[A]

Chalarone. Stop calling me. You will not play Chalarone.

[B]

As you and Montague. More than 125,000 podcasts trust Acast to connect them with their audience. Your brand can speak to your perfect audience, too, by advertising with Acast. We're home to the biggest names in podcasting, reaching millions of engaged listeners who can only be accessed through acast. From true crime to comedy finance to fitness. Your next customer's favorite podcast is an Acast show. Your audience is already here. Speak to them with Acast. Visit go acast.com to get started today. We should get back to the movie. What other bits?

[A]

What other bits were so good?

[B]

It feels like there was so many, like, beautiful bits, comic bits or whatever that just came at me and it's like I kept going, oh, I have to remember that for the podcast later. I just simmering.

[A]

It's just. It was like set piece after set piece after set piece in a way that, again, like, the musical is so successful for that reason. Like, the songs are so good. I feel like wizard and I, you know, the first solo that Elphaba has, has done really, really well and that it was very beautiful but very simple. Like, it was just sort of her. And I think what was really amazing about Cynthia's performance in that and like, she obviously could have done basically as much showing off as anyone would want to in that part, in that her voice is staggeringly gorgeous. She has full control of all the range. But actually, she didn't really. She didn't really do any kind of showy, offy, fluttery, flittery stuff.

[B]

She really kept it back until.

[A]

She kept it back until, yeah, until, like, the end of Firing Gravity and like wizard and I. I feel like she just was either directed or instinctively or maybe whatever. Both was very much like, everyone here knows that you've got this part because you are an amazing singer. We don't need to kind of go above and beyond to kind of prove your credentials in these moments. Like, just be the part, sing as Elphaba would sing and don't worry about, about, you know, how it's going to be perceived by an audience going, yeah, but did she do the option up? Did she riff? Did she hit the da da Da da da. So, yeah, I really appreciated that. I thought that was really smart choices. Oh, I know a bit that I really loved Israel at the end, but like, I love the fact that again, like, I feel like generally they did a really good balance of. This is a movie for people who love this musical, but also it's a movie for people who. Who don't really care about this musical. And I've not seen these songs before in that, like, there were Easter eggs and there was like little cute things like cameo from Stephen Schwartz and like obviously having the original girls and everything. But like, nothing ever hung on those cameos. It was never saying, this is a movie full of jokes for people who aren't you. Like, you need to earn your stripes. You're going to care about this movie, which I feel like so much of, you know, I think sometimes kind of cinema that's based on other stuff and like, can get wrapped in a tangle of sort of self referencing. But having said all that, I really loved that at the end, Defying Gravity, she basically is in that pose like that, you know, in the stage version of Defying Gravity, Elphaba gets lifted into the air, but she's standing straight. It's just. It's the most lovely and basic theatrical trick in the world. She's not fucking roaming around the stage. She's not in the audience. Like, she has to be able to sing so well in those moments. And they just lift her. That's all they do. They just lift her up. They lift her up in the smoke and there's haze and she's just holding a broomstick so that she's just as solid as possible. Because the real magic is just the end of that song. They really, you know, it's just the end of that song being such a beautiful song sung so beautifully. And like, they don't. They just want to clear the decks to be like, you are just gonna listen to this woman sing this song now. And I feel that. And. And in the movie it ends with her fully, like, stood up in the sky. Like, they do not. They do not have, like, they have her whole kind of whizzing around for a while, but actually by the end, it's just her in that window, like, stood. Stood fully up as she is in the stage show with a broom in her hand being like. Like, and this is the picture you wanted. And that's what we're going to honor. It's like, this is the magic that's gotten this mov. This film made. Is that so many People seen that moment, in fact one and been like, this is amazing. And it's just a woman on a plinth. It's just a woman up high standing up high. But those people watching, it's like it's this amazing moment of freedom and bravery and magic. This woman can fly and it's so magic. And I think it was a really smart decision that would not have ever have been made because it's kind of a mad pose to have a woman who can fly standing like an actual woman in the middle of the sky finishing her number. But I think that it was obvious that they wanted to do, you know, to pay respect and homage. That moment that so many millions of people have seen and been like this woman standing up more higher than a woman normally does is the symbol of all that is magic and all that is brave. And I really love it.

[B]

And like I love you so much. But I totally, I totally get that because like you're so right of like the, the idea that like this multi, multi million dollar movie that's like inspiring Google Pixel phone partnerships so important and all kinds of phones to say ridiculous. Oh my God. The amount of trash that will be created just to like for people to get a hold of a piece of this movie while the hot. It's so hot. And you know all these careers and all these, these professions and crafts really comes back to this tiny jewel at the center of this musical which is that song like it like. And they had come. They. They knew it was their end of Act 1 number. They knew it was strong enough to sort of like launch a thousand ships. And it has.

[A]

And it has like look at it. Like look at. And you know, again, not to make it about myself, but like I think again like having had this mad ride with this show that we've written and like for it to have gone from, you know, for those who don't know about it, but I've written a musical coverage against me which started in a very small venue. It started in an 80 seater in London and it's now grown to be this. It's gonna enter its third year in the West End next year. Can you believe that's into its third year? What I know in March it'll be its third year.

[B]

And the West End how many years overall? Like when did I first go see it?

[A]

When was it in your drama? We started performing in 2019.

[B]

Fucking hell.

[A]

It's crazy. And then you know. And now the original cast are taking it to Broadway next year. We're opening in well Starting previews in February and opening in March. But again, just being like. And now so many, you know, there are so many jobs and so many people and so many people working incredibly hard to kind of create this kind of little beats of magic and like. And because, you know, people have come and seen the show and our show is incredibly simple in terms of the staging and we didn't have any sort of money for big sets and you know, that actually was helpful and all the rest of. Of it. But I think, yeah, it's. It's very, very, very magical for me that to see that image of like that of Elphaba standing. Standing tall and on our own and being like the most valuable part of this whole. This whole thing is just such a clean and easy to create image with just a song behind it and like. And that for that to speak so, so strongly to the instinct of being a human being that it can create the Google pixel. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

They're making it in green.

[A]

Oh, they're green. I pink Google on the side. But like, it's so mad. It's so mad that that's true. And to have a project that is obviously nowhere near that level of huge, but to have something that feels like we've accidentally stumbled across a sort of magic and momentum that people want to get behind and that thing of like, how do you. I think as. As artists and as like storytellers, you're constantly in a churn of like, how do I say the thing that I want to say in like a simple enough or smart enough or funny enough way that it just kind of chimes the bell of the person that you're talking to and whether that be like a reader or a person listening or an audience member and like, and when you manage to accidentally stumble into it in a moment or a scene or whatever or a chapter or like a fucking sense sentence, it's like you just relax for a moment. This was like just pure golden sunshine.

[B]

It's a weird feeling of synthesis with every person who's alive.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And whoever has been alive and who has deaf a million years. You know what I mean? Like, it's such a. And like. And I feel that as a reader as well as a creator, it's like, it's why I feel like, not to come back to AI again. But like, you know, it's such madness to me when all any art is trying to do is reach across time and go. It was the same for us to, you know, it was the same before and it will be the same again. And like, the great comfort of having that chiming bell from someone who's written something 600 years ago or 300 years from now. And I just think. I honestly think to grab a defined gravity. And it's not even like. And I think what's amazing about defying gravity is I think if you listen to. If you read the lyrics, like on a page of paper, you'd be like, okay, yeah, that seems like there's some really good lines in there. And. And like, there's lots of good stuff and like, it, you know, it scans really well. But like something about the. It's just like. It's so good. I remember the first time. The first time I ever heard that song. It was the first time I ever heard from Wicked. And it was. I was at university. I just. My first year at university. I'd never heard of Wicked. I'd literally. I'd been in one musical in my life and it was west side Story in my school where I played Enable Buddies. The Tomboy without a song.

[B]

The Tomboy without a song.

[A]

I managed to muscle into G Officer Krupke. I was like, I feel like anybody should be there. Which in my defense is very. Anybody's thing to go. I think I should be with the boys. But I went to. And like, it was back in the day before it was like, you know, the, you know, musicals weren't on the Internet.

[B]

Really.

[A]

There was nothing to. You didn't. I didn't know anything about musicals and I knew there was a musical theater society and I went and I'd like. And I had an audition to be like a background.

[B]

So it was at secondary school. Yeah, university.

[A]

So I was an in west historian in secondary school and I went to university.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Having known basically nothing about musicals, but having had. I had an audition to be in the. In another plays, but I had been rejected because I couldn't do a posh accent. Oh, it's the first time I'd ever. Because I grew up in the north, obviously, and I didn't really occur to me that, like, my voice. My voice wasn't posh. Yeah, I think it's gone much posh now because it's been living in London for so long.

[B]

Yeah, same here, man.

[A]

You know how it goes. But like, so the Drama society only ever did, like, Shakespeare and blah, blah, and like, they were all posh people.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It was just a very posh. I went to Warwick. It was lovely university, really good. But it was quite full of posh. People, you know, I was northern posh. We're not posh enough. So I was like, okay, I can't do the plays actually. They're not gonna let me.

[B]

Oh, my God, that's so crazy.

[A]

Like, you know, probably looking back, that was probably me dramatizing. But I felt very keenly that, like, yeah, the play stuff I wasn't able to do. And then there was the musical theater society where luckily everyone was just trying to do a bad American accent.

[B]

Anyone can do that.

[A]

Anyone could do that. And I was like, great, this is fine. I'll do musicals instead. Because I like singing and I'd been, you know. Anyway, so there was like a musical theater review, but I turned up to rehearsal and there was a woman there. And as I was opening the door, she was singing Defying Gravity. It was a girl called Laura Poyner. I think of her often. And it was like the most beautiful thing I'd ever heard in my life. I couldn't believe the song. I couldn't believe that this girl was singing it. And like, I just like, open mouthed listened to this, this incredible song, this kind of crappy university rehearsal room being like, how could make such a lyric and melody together so good, so magical? And I just think there's. There's something. And again, and I sort of like, like, definitely, like enlightened or ignited in me. I could desire to be like, what is this weird magic that if you put words together with music together, specifically in a kind of context of theater. I think obviously music. Music is good. I feel like music, good music, we're proud of it. And like, obviously I was. I was, you know, loved a lot of different. You know, I was kind of more into rock and like, I grew up in the golden era of big money too, and Green Day and all those bands, but I'd never really thought of it as a thing that you could do on a stage in theater. And then just. But like, literally watching this and I like, went back to my like, little thing, but like, what is this musical? What is this song?

[B]

Defy To Defy the gravity.

[A]

It truly does defy gravity. And just like unlocking this whole different, different sort of modern musical theatre thing where it could be really funny but really emotional and really, like, you know, sad and scary. It was. It was very, very formative for me. And I think really, I think like every. I feel like every modern musical theater creator really is chasing down Defying Gravity and, like, trying to figure out how you unlock that one woman up on the Plinth with Everyone being like, I would do anything to help you.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, that was real. Sorry. You really held space.

[A]

Oh, now I held space. The lyrics into my gravity. I did the thing.

[B]

You did it. You're the couple of posts she was talking about.

[A]

Oh, God, it was me. It was me. It was you all along. But listen, I feel like if you're listening to this, then you're. You're automatically holding space.

[B]

You're a holding lyric. This is. This is where we go to hold space.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

It's something. When. I don't know, I think, what. Obviously, it's a beautiful song. It's very powerful. It's very powerfully sung. You need the most incredible voice in the world to sing it. It is. But there's also something about the way Glinda is woven through that song.

[A]

Yes, you're so right.

[B]

That makes it so important. And that thing of like, I hope you're happy now that you've hurt your cause forever. I hope you're feeling clever. And they do like. I know. It's like a tale of two gals in school in, like, you know, the. It's like Wicked is not shy about what it's talking about. You know what I mean? Or the power dynamics it's talking about.

[A]

I think it's so amusable that you kind of. Again, like, for big stage things, it's. You do often kind of have to be quite like, just say the thing. Yeah, just say the thing. Like, I am angry with you. Because everything is so writ large in Again, just that you don't have that. Again, as we talked about the smallness. It's quite hard to have the smallness on a big stage. Not impossible. But I feel like. Yeah. Because there's so much going on. You can't direct an eye in a show like you can with a movie. There's no camera. It's like people could be fucking looking anywhere on your stage. So a lot of time you do have to be like, I. This is my emotion. I'm going to explain it to you very clearly. And that's quite hard as a composer to be like, how can I do this in a way that's not just like shit, but I feel like in Divine Gravity, they walk that line.

[B]

Yeah. But it's so interesting what you just said, because if you compare, like the wizard of Oz, the original movie, through. Through its sheer popularity through so much of that century, right. And like being screened again and again, being on TV again and again, it developed these depths of feeling and meaning that they actually didn't go in with like. So it became such an important film for queer culture and the idea of found family. And it's. But that is all allegorical that they are not saying the quiet part out loud in the wizard of Oz. Yes, that's true. Because they're not whispering it at all. They don't care. Like, they're just some movie guys who probably like painting that poor tin man with lead.

[A]

He died of that.

[B]

He died of that lead. And so there was no intentionality of that other than like, well, don't we all dream of going somewhere else?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then those layers grew over time. But now Wicked is coming in post, those layers having grown and dealing with it. And there is something, even though it is obvious and even though they really put a button on it and you don't have to be smart to see it, there's something very powerful about the kind of Glinda Elphaba dynamic of Glinda being, you know, sort of essentially quite shallow and what. But like, also, you kind of can't blame her because what teenager isn't like. What teenager isn't like, changing their name for a political cause they don't care about?

[A]

And also, I think actually in some ways kind of like the brave. Like, I think for, like, it's much more real. Like, it would have been very easy. I think this is what going back to the book, really. But it would have been very easy for to be like, oh, my God, now Elfbery and Glinda are going off on their adventure together and they're going to salt. And it's like, no, because people, actually good people, often don't do that. They often do. But I need to be safe. I need to be safe. I'm going to stick with the people who are going to make sure my power and my family and like all the rest of it. And I feel like it is like an under sort of served sort of type of character, which is like you still. You still sort of love them and believe in them, but there is a fundamental lack of bravery.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That means that they can't step over that gulf and they can't do the thing that the hero does.

[B]

Exactly. And it's like, as you said, Elphaba comes in strong and she leaves stronger, which isn't as big a journey to go on as somebody. I mean, it's quite something incredibly poignant about someone who goes on that kind of internal hero's journey the way Glinda does of like I'm this sort of shallow bully, essentially, who becomes friends with the weird girl. And actually we're best friends and actually I believe in her, but she still stays kind of shallow and ambitious and sort of wants to be on the left hand of power because. And like, I think this is very much a. I don't know this. It's hard not to think about it, like, post a Trump victory. But it's like people who are benefiting from a system will never do anything to wrestle away power from that system.

[A]

And also that thing of, like, what can I do? Like, what can any one person who.

[B]

Cannot read the Grimoire.

[A]

Yeah, he can't read the Grimoire, you know, and, you know, and maybe it's better to have someone next to him who knows what the system is and.

[B]

Who is actually someone on the inside.

[A]

Someone on the inside and all these sort of fallacies that are told and I've been dealt again and again and again because, like. Because it's all a mess. Yeah, yeah. Roll it to your best. But no, I think you're absolutely right. I think there's really. It's a very interesting story in terms of, you know, if there are sort of two leads to this tale, and one is following a very tried and tested hero's journey of from the shadows into the. And the other one is going from the light into the shadows, which is. Yeah, it's like a kind of, you know, she starts as the star, Glinda starts as a star, and then through the kind of first two acts of the film, her journey is to give up her lead, her main character syndrome, which, again, is just like. It's a very. It's a sort of twisted. It's not a. It's not a hero. That's not a story you see a lot because it's not. It's not the forward propulsion story that we want to see. What you want to see is the hero goes from zero to hero, and that's. And that's it. But actually. Actually I think it's a. It's kind of a more interesting journey to go, to learn about having to step back and being like, actually not. This is not about me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this person could do this better. Could do it better than me. Like, that is actually a very. That's sort of not quite what Glinda does and sort of does and doesn't. But that's. There's a. There's a much more admirable quality to that than simply going, I think I might be wonderful. It turns out Sad. I am. Like, I have this theory that everyone in their lives, having watched Imbibe's films, wants someone in some older person to say to them, remarkable. Remarkable. That's all anyone wants. Remarkable. To look at them with surprise and go, remarkable.

[B]

And it's all that Glinda thirsts for. And, like, she just continues to. Even though every. All of her peers think she's incredible, her parents think she's incredible, nobody who matters thinks she's incredible. And you get that with Madame.

[A]

Madame Morrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dr. Dillamond. Yeah.

[B]

Michelle Yeoh. Thank God. Like, amazing, incredible woman. Incredible actress. I'm glad they didn't make her sing anymore.

[A]

No, she doesn't need to do a lot of singing, though. She just needs to be. Just wear those beautiful outfits and just.

[B]

Be that bit where she directs her monkeys.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, that kind of.

[B]

I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen.

[A]

It's that thing of, like, cool guys walk away from explosions. Cool. And humans walk away from monkeys sprouting wings.

[B]

Tortured, tortured monkeys.

[A]

I think that, for me, because, like, I was really curious as to how they were gonna do that, because in the. In the stage show, it's incredible. Like, I feel like in some ways, like, in terms of pure spectacle, that is the moment that stayed with me the most. It's like you sort of have the lights up. You know, she thinks she's just done it to one monkey. And then the kind of curtain rises. Whatever it is on, the lights come on. You realize it's this whole castle filled with these creatures. And, like, it's such an amazing moment. And I feel like they kind of replaced that with this really exciting chase instead of, you know, with Glinda and Elphaba running through the corridors and the monkeys, like, through the window, Smashing through the window and grabbing her. And I think that was much better in terms, because I think, like, the thing about theater is that what you want to build is, like, entire full pictures, like, moments that kind of encompass the entire, you know, picture that you're seeing. Whereas in film, because it's a moving medium, really, like, what you want is kind of sequences that take you through, right?

[B]

So if you think of Chicago, it's that moment with the red backdrop and that kind of cellblock tango and all that, you know, you're right. It is. You are trying to create moments that you will remember when you go out for a fag break, you know, kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I was thinking, because what Chicago does incredibly well is that What? It just kind of goes, what if this was a stage show? Like, let's just have two worlds. The real world and of the Court and case and Sellback Tango, where they just go, let's just put it on the stage. Let's just do it on the stage. And as you say, like, let's use the powerful of a stage thing, which is pull the curtain down. All the women are there. Like, there's nothing. Like, pull the curtain down and it's there on a theater stage. You know, we use it in mincemeat, too. Like, the finale, it's all, pull the curtain down. And it's there because, like, it's just so magical. Whereas pull the curtain down. And, you know, if in that movie they panned out to reveal that there was lots of monkeys there, I'm sure we'd have been like, well, shit. But, like, uh. Oh, but like, having that. The cinematic, you know, trope of the chase and the running through the thing, like, there's a reason that that's.

[B]

But it's also because you see the monkey army fall first because they're walking up to the wizard with this kind of the sentinels or whatever, and then you walk back out and then they're all just, like, writhing on the floor.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's a hard. It's hard work. That really tricky CGI monkey getting wings. It's actually hard work in terms of. It was very graphic horror.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And also, like, just as. Again, like, I guess. I kind of guess that's what I mean by. In terms of, like, Easter eggs for people who've seen the movie but who've seen the musical but don't care. Because I feel like any musical nerd watching the scene where. Where it's like they're walking through a bunch of monkeys. Like, I mean, I for one, was certainly like, this is a bunch of monkeys.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

This is. I know where this is going. But yeah, that was. That was really. That was really horrible. But, yeah, I think they did. They did a good. I feel like what they did a really great job of was, like, is looking at detail in every, like, every magical moment that's in the musical and being like, do we replicate this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

A la. And moment of firing gravity, or do we do a different thing? That is the film equivalent of the excitement of that moment. And I feel like they made such clear and, like, good choices for all of that because, like, you know, dancing. Dancing through life on the stage, like, you kind of. Again, it all happens kind of one Place like, there's a bit of stage, you know, training, lots of photography. But there's only so many locations you kind of do on a stage. Like. Yeah. You kind of just have to go through it.

[B]

Yeah. It was never a song I like, liked before this movie. And then I was just like. Yeah. Forever. And the way the sort of we deserve each other thing is woven through it as it gets longer. Always gets me.

[A]

Yeah. Loathing as well. I thought the song is great. And again, they think. What. They studied that sequence. And I think that particular dance style with the books that's just ripped straight from the musical. But I think it's incredibly successful in the musical in a way that does actually translate. Translate completely directly to the film. Like, you have that. I think that clip's been shared like a million times of Ariana walking with a book. So when people aren't just so good. Because it's just really satisfying. It's a really satisfying flavor of dance that in a way that just really just does. You can lift it straight out and put it in the screen version. But they did a good job of being like. But not everything is that. Not everything is just. Successful choice on the stage. Stage. Let's just shove it in the musical. Because I think there are. Yeah. There are musicals. Movies that try to do it. And I think, like, what's her story? That kind of do that thing of, like, it's magical on stage. It'll be magical on screen. And I don't. For me, it doesn't have the same power.

[B]

Yeah. And the things that they add in some places are just magical. The whole popular thing of, like. Like Glinda's just little boxes popping off her.

[A]

The little boxes are so nice, aren't they?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why is just Stuff being so good? I feel like they had like, a whiteboard of things that are important in this movie. And, like, stuff was circled, like, seven times.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Stuff. We want the stuff. All her hat boxes, all her clothes. A little heel that, like, is an extendable heel to be a higher heel. So nice. Yeah. The only victim of that whole thing is the magical hat. That's the only true.

[B]

And I think it's. It's okay.

[A]

It's. Yeah.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

Unbalanced. It's all right that the hat becomes less magical because of the plethora of things around.

[A]

I'd rather have the stuff. The stuff is so nice. Like, just like. As we. Just a magical school. I mean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just. There's. You're powerless to Resist.

[B]

Imagine you are powerless.

[A]

You're instantly there. You're in the little uniform. You're just like, oh, what? What would I be studying with them? Like, we're human beings. You can't not. I. I feel like in the musical, the kind of school of it all again. Because I think so much of a school is the stuff in cinema. Like the quills and the pen and the stationery and why Hogwarts, et cetera is so successful, because you just get so much stuff. My God, the books and the chairs and the library and the thing. A magical school is so built for screen.

[B]

And also, hierarchies are simple to understand. And it's essentially society shrunk down small and people kiss sometimes.

[A]

People kiss sometimes.

[B]

Like, you can't go wrong with the magical school.

[A]

No, there's the canteen. Who's gonna sit with who?

[B]

La la, la, la.

[A]

Whereas, yeah, I feel like the school of it all is kind of passed over a little bit in the musical version, just because there's just not.

[B]

Not the time.

[A]

It's not the stuff, you know, it's not the time, not the stuff. And, like, again, this is like. I feel like they went, no, no, no, let's really lean into the school. Cause, like, again, I mean, so. I mean, we've not talked about the fact that it is part one.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It is two and a half hours long for part one of Wicked. And I feel like, you know, I think I've seen people or reviews that were kind of like, oh, you know, we just in the school for ages. And like, you know, this. It could have been cut down, it could have been shorter. Wrong, wrong.

[B]

But I remember on this very podcast when we talked about Chicago, which was when Wicked was in production, and I think you literally say on that podcast, you know, they're making two movies out of it. And I was like, what the fuck?

[A]

What? Adult I was.

[B]

I know. And then the second it was over, I just turned to went, we can do the same thing again in a year.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Oh, my God. Make it four movies.

[A]

Literally, just give us. Just keep going. Whatever happens next, just keep Stephen, write some more songs. Let's just keep going.

[B]

Like, they can't dismantle those sets.

[A]

People live there now.

[B]

There was something, to me that we felt very internally satisfying as well about doing, like, a magical school. And, like, when you do a magical school, you can't not think about Hogwarts, right? No, no, no. And to have, like, a movie that is a property that is very specifically about, isn't it funny how people are scapegoated when they pose no threat to anyone. Isn't that interesting how people themselves are the victims of great injustice, are opposed as being the ones who are sort of the enemies of society?

[A]

I think you can do interesting. Joanne. Joanne, listening. Why don't we learn something from our own tomes? But I think. Yeah, well, it's exactly what you say, which is like, you can do a large society, society distilled small. Because obviously with teenagers you can do the thing of like, I hate you. Get out of my chair. You don't sit there in a way that you can't really do.

[B]

And there's nothing too weird or too cruel that could happen. Because a contract we have accepted in cinema is that if somebody like commits a crime that would normally put them in the Hague, but they do it in the context of being a mean high school person.

[A]

You just smash cut to a teacher's office. It's like, well, we hope this won't happen again.

[B]

You set our whole family on fire. You've gone through no recess for you.

[A]

No recess, double detention, 50 lines. I must not set my family on fire. So, yeah, I think also with the school, the school of it all. Because again, like, I feel like, yes, we could have spent less time in school, but I did not want to. First of all, I loved every drop of it.

[B]

Every moment. And I think again, with every moment in the room.

[A]

Oh, in the room was so everything. And I think with the musical, the thing about like, so when they go to the Emerald City, one short day, the Emerald City. I feel like if, if the music on stage has a big. This is a location reveal. It's that. Because the whole thing is getting to the Emerald City. And like that you, I think in the. When you're watching the stage show, that feels very like, wow. This is the wow of the movie. And all the costumes, like, like it's, it's really spectacular. It's a real spectacular moment in the musical. But I feel, feel like, because. And so, and so for that reason, I feel like the school kind of couldn't be like you can't have two kind of magical sort of.

[B]

For budgeting reasons alone.

[A]

For budget reasons alone. And also I just feel like you can burn out on that kind of like reveal, reveal, reveal in, on a stage. Because everything's truncated, obviously. It's, it's like, it's just more intense. There's less time. All the rest of it, you know, this is part one. But yeah, but in a film you have more Time, you know, this is part one. And so you've got. We kind of got to do the slow reveal of all the delicious school, the boat and the thing and the books and the tea and the library and the dance.

[B]

The tiny little touches that I really appreciated, like, because it's such a. It's such a set, like. And there's no denying that. But they kind of. They make a lot of wind and weather.

[A]

Like, there's, like.

[B]

You can tell for me, in my sort of personal head kind of, that they shot it one day. And the rushes, they were like, it looks wrong. Add wind. And now. Now it looks like they're in a location, you know, because Glinda's hair is moving.

[A]

You know that bit where she sticks her head out the window? I like air. Yeah. I think, like, the book is really good. Like, the script is really good. I think. Like, it really. It. I feel. I never felt like I was in a scene for, like, too long. I feel like, again, with musicals on stage, there's a real thing of. Everyone wants your scenes to be as short as possible because, like, everyone wants to get to the songs. And not even. Not even kind of, like, consciously. I feel like once you're in a song, like, you're so heightened that when you drop out of a song, it feels like it takes longer than it would if it was a play.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Like, you're kind of going, like. But in musical time, this scene is, like four hours long. Just like, let's just go. And I think as a. You know, as someone who's trying to write musicals and stuff. We're trying to write musicals. Well, we only written one, so musicals would be a great addition. But, like. Yeah. Being very aware of how much time are we spending not in the music.

[B]

Yeah. Because I remember watching earlier versions of Operation Mincemeat and there being a lot more talking and a lot more plot. A lot more spoken plot.

[A]

Yeah, a lot more spoken plot. Like. And even on the songs, too. I mean. Yeah. And, like. And that was the thing we had to learn, I think, by doing it, which was kind of being like, if this was a telescript, you know, we could sit in this scene for a bit longer. And, like. But we definitely. I think once you're. Once you're on a stage, you really start to feel the audience be a bit like, yeah, okay, can we just. Let's just get on with it now. And I feel like, although we obviously did spend more time in dialogue in the movie, first of all, I feel like you can. Because I feel like as a medium, you know, that's kind of what people expect from screen anyway, to stay in. To stay in dialogue mode. But actually, I didn't. I never felt like I was being dragged into scenes or out staying in scenes, I think, also because what helps is, like, you've got quite a lot of injections of new stuff happening constantly. Like, Fiero doesn't turn up for quite a long time. Like, it's like you're a good. Like, what, half an hour, 45 minutes into the movie before that happens?

[B]

There's a lot of parts bubbling at once, which is, again, something that you can do really effectively in a school location more than anywhere else, or even in an office location where you have faith that the audience knows the boundaries of the location. So therefore, it's okay for several different things to be happening at once. You know what I mean? Because it doesn't feel overwhelming. It's not like we're talking about the whole world. We're talking about this one school. And so we have Elphaba and learning magic. We have Glinda being jealous of that. They have them hating each other. We have the sister who is, like, got her thing with Bach. And then we have Fia. You know, it's like in the Animals as well. Like, it doesn't. But it never feels like, too much or too busy. And it would in most other films.

[A]

And it's hard as well, isn't it? Because I feel like I saw a couple of reviews that were like. That we didn't understand why we were spending so much time with Nessa Rose and Bok. And I was kind of. It was interesting because it was like that thing that we've talked about, which is like, it's so hard to come to this with no context.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's almost impossible. I was like, oh, yeah, of course. I guess because, like, you know, for me watching it and for people who know the story and who know wizard of Oz, it may be even awesome. And, you know, there's sort of the layers of how much you can know about this going into this movie. But being like, well, Nessa Rose is gonna turn out to be the Wick Witch of the East. Like, it's really important that she is in this movie. Like, you can't dismiss her. But being like. But would you know that? Would you cast your eyes mind back to going, but don't you remember the Wicked Witch of the west has a sister. The Wicked Witch of the East. And the house gets dropped on her at the beginning of the wizard of Oz. That's why this character is important. And it's very funny and kind of magical. Again, to me to be in 2024 being like. If you do not remember the subplot beats of this very, very old movie where the sister of the main character gets killed at the beginning of a house. Right.

[B]

It's a big ask. It's a big ask.

[A]

That's why these characters are here. Like. But again, it's.

[B]

Duh.

[A]

Yeah, come. But it's very comforting to me as like a lover. A lover of watching movies and a lover of theater to be like, it's. But it is important. Like, yes, that is the reason. The reason that we are watching Bok and Nessarone Rose in this movie in 2024 is because it was so good back in the 30s, 30s when this woman got crushed by a house.

[B]

We really needed a backstory for the crushed one.

[A]

Like the ruby. Oh my God. I mean, just like. It's just. I feel like the. The. I think the. One of the reasons I think like that like people really like Operation Mincemeat is it kind of. It. There's so many kind of like little interwoveny threads that there's a lot of. In jokey. There's like a. There's like a sort of sense of humoury kind of building an inter. Joke thing that. That. That sort of has sprung out onside it and outside the community. But I feel similarly that I feel like it's so nice to have like a language of wizard of Oz. Like a language of like both wizard of Oz and like even like Toto and like the Yellow Brick Road. Like these things that everyone knows about that don't exist. That. But you know, that they don't.

[B]

Importantly, they don't exist.

[A]

But like for. For. But to us as a. Literally as a creature. As a creature who is human living but like to be like. But they do that. Everyone knows this.

[B]

Yeah, they are. They are more known than most Bible stories.

[A]

I love the. I feel like that. And like Alice in Wonderland are like, there are a few stories like, you know, Narnia and like, there are a few. And I feel. I feel like, yeah, probably like, you know, Harry Potter and maybe his dark materials as well. But you know, different dominations of importance depending on who you are.

[B]

It's a fascinating thing when something passes in from being a story or being an intellectual property to being a kind of a shorthand that all humans just use.

[A]

Basically myth. Like we kind of created like it's still ongoing. Like, we're still made kind of Medusa and Perseus and, like, all the rest of it. We just. Yeah, we just know that they're not real, but it doesn't make them less real because we still.

[B]

No, no, no. I'll get emotional.

[A]

And, like, not only do we, like, still think of them, we're still, like, making up stories for them now. Like, yeah. And, like, I don't know, it just feels. It feels important. And it feels like, just. Just so nice for to be so desperate, you know, for. For us to. I, particularly now to feel like such a desperate group of fucking people on this planet, to be like, there are still things that many, many people share and play with, you know, not just, like, knowledge of the fucking past and, like, the things. And I know how to fucking do your taxes. Like, things that are dollies that we play with. Like, that we just go, want to go to the playground? Be like, what if the wicked witch went to school with this other girl?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And we'll make them do things together, and then we'll sing songs about them. And, like, yeah. It's very hopeful to me in a way that probably is pointless.

[B]

Can I tell you about a moment that has nothing to do with this?

[A]

I would love that for me. I love you.

[B]

One time I was walking Sylph, and here already an emotional story, and I was passing a bus stop, and there was this girl who saw her and just, like, had, like, a reaction. She was like, ah. And then she kind of. She sort of didn't speak any English, but she kind of motioned, like, can I pet your dog? Which is the same in every language. And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure. And there's always that moment when someone wants to pet your dog where, like, they really want to be with the dog, but because of the contract of human souls, they have to say something to you, which is really difficult when you don't speak the same language. But she also. My dog is fantastic. And she had to say hi to her. So I totally understood her dilemma. And so she was just petting Sylvan, just talking to her. And then she sort of looked up to me and she went, frasier. Because. Sorry, because. Because Sylv is the Jack Russell terrier, Terry. Yeah, yeah. And to me, it was one of the most, like, lovely moments of being like, oh, yeah, we, like. We have these things in common that we don't like that, like, are beyond language. Frasier.

[A]

Frasier, Fras. Fuck, man. That's so nice.

[B]

I Know, but that's kind of what we're talking about.

[A]

Boil down and again, like, maybe like kind of all art being like, can I give a language? Can. Can you help share in this? Can we make this together? Can we be in this together?

[B]

And like, to go back to what we were saying at the very beginning, and I'm sorry if we haven't lit on singular moments enough for some listeners, but we just have just watched this movie and it's just washed over us, like in this great, beautiful, hopeful wave. But like, to go back to what we were saying at the very, very start, like, you do sometimes I do feel like, oh, are we just all our fucking streaming platforms and addicted to our phones? Blah, blah, blah. Are we entertaining ourselves to death? And have we put entertainment and the arts too high up in our culture? And the answer is yes. Like, the things that we expect from entertainers, that we don't expect from public officials is like, gross and sick to me.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

But at the same time, it's like, it's the dream of a common language, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And also just to common language and like an escape into, like, into magic that we have actually created. Like a magic that is real, that is the work and blood and sweat of people who are just doing what they love incredibly hard and well. And just that pouring out from every frame of this movie, just being like every single decision, every single moment. So much care and attention and love. Just so that for us, at 10am on an. Unless the Square cinema can just like hold hands and be like cinema, like magic.

[B]

She's still got it.

[A]

She's still got it. And you know, and Elphaba is brave and it is hard and she will be brave.

[B]

She will be brave. So there's a couple of things we gotta talk about. For example, we haven't spoken about Jeff Goldblum or Bowen Yang. Yes.

[A]

Oh, God. Okay, well, who. Who would you want to start with?

[B]

Jeff Goldman.

[A]

I feel like he's so rarely like, the final thing you talk about. He's usually. I mean, Jeff Goldman's in the room. He's front and center.

[B]

It's that wonderful thing where. And it's such an important thing to remember if you make stories of, like, if you're introducing someone late in the ensemble who's incredibly important, how that person needs to be a completely different energy to everyone you've met so far. So we've had Matt, Adam. I can't. I don't know why I can't. Marable, who is like, obviously she is her own brand of kind of obviously menacing from the very beginning. And we have the school bullies and we have, we have loads of little embrace.

[A]

Like Sierra comes in, you know, like, you know, to say, like, I think what this is a really great musical for is kind of going. And here's the different thing and here's a new thing and here's a new thing kind of all the way through. And I think, yeah. As you say, like when you finally meet the wizard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You want it to be Jeff Conlum.

[B]

Yeah. You didn't know that you wanted it to be him. But when the thing.

[A]

I feel like, you know what, even if we watch and it was someone else, I feel like part of our hearts would have been like, it's Jeff Goldblum. But it's Jeff Goldblum. He was just, he was born to turn up three quarters away through the film, kind of with a martini in his hand being like, so what are we doing here?

[B]

What are we doing here?

[A]

And everyone to applaud him for it.

[B]

And I also think that there are so many lesser actors who would have characterized very that role on the page as being like, oh, it's almost like, let's play him as though he's like a slick Silicon Valley CEO. But like, there's something about it, the performance that is like, it's. I think it's bringing a lot more than, than is on the page of like, oh God, yeah. Oh, you're here. Wow. I can't see people from. It's. There's something about the stutteringness of him that makes him. If you were a 17 year old girl, be played by a 35 year old, you would find instantly trustworthy. And that bit where he, she, you know, he asks her what her heart's desire is and she says to help the animals. And he's like, I had a feeling you might say that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got the kind of like, it's, it's that thing of you let your guard down because he's so casual with his own authority. And I feel like he does that in lots of things. I think he's very good, him. And I think Ted Danson's another one who's good at this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like carries with him an aura of like, I could have anyone in this building killed, but I won't.

[B]

It's people who have been powerful for such a long time that they don't wear it like a, like a new fat Rolex. Do you know what I mean? They're like oh, yeah. Well, every room I go into smells like fresh parents kind of in a.

[A]

Different way to then, like, because I feel like both Jeff Goldman and Ted Danson, they were kind of interesting cases in that they are never. They've never been like the big movie star. It's not like if Tom Hanks had done this role, it'd have a different sort of flavor to it. But there's just something about Ted Danson and particularly I feel like now in that, like, they're both really, like valuable gems in everything they do in a kind of way that feels like they slip through the back door of it in a very kind of wizard of like, literally the character wizard of Oz kind of way, which is kind of like, has he just found this palace and entered in. But we will respect him and we will cherish him, but there was never a single moment where it was like, it's Ted Danson, it's Goldblum. These are the guys now that we really want to see. It's just like that slippery charisma that makes you feel like they did this on their own. No movie producer was like, I'm going to make you a star, kid. To Ted Danson or Jeff Goldblum. They just did a bunch of weird shit.

[B]

An accumulation of many parts over many years.

[A]

Yeah. You know, real kind of traders of like, I will take this jewel from here, this jewel from here, and I will build myself a throne. And now they're really. They're really sitting on it in a way that I feel like is so perfect for that wizard of Oz character. Being like, you know, I feel like with Jeff Goldblum, you could take everything from him and he would be on the street, like, hustling the next day, being like, okay, you want to play three card, you know, three card Monty. Yeah. Like I. Which probably is not true at all, but has that iron rod of steel. Whereas I feel like if you put Tom Hanks on the street, oh, my God, he would be ruined.

[B]

Yeah. Put Tom Hanks on the street and erased everyone's memory like in that movie yesterday.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's just like a doddering old fuck. Yeah, no, exactly.

[A]

Whereas no. Goblin's building again. He's starting again.

[B]

Yeah, he's starting. He's starting a gang of thieves made up of orphan boys, of course.

[A]

All to come in part two of Wicked.

[B]

And we're getting over time. But before we, you know, depart this world forever.

[A]

Hang on, we need to talk about someone else, though.

[B]

Oh, Bo and Yang, which I cannot believe he Did Saturday Night Live and this at the same time. Time can think about that for a minute.

[A]

Think about that for a minute.

[B]

To do the hard. The famously the hardest job in show business, which is to be a cast member, a writing and performing cast member on Saturday Night Live and then to squeeze in another job which is being in the biggest movie of the year.

[A]

Did you know that he was in this when he Before. Before he appeared?

[B]

Yes, but I follow him closely. Yeah. Feel like I have made him my business.

[A]

He. He really like, he was the star of every moment he was in. In a way that's just delicious.

[B]

Yeah. He could launch a whole eyewear sort of campaign off the back of that role.

[A]

That was really nice. But yeah, they're very much the. I feel like every Disney movie, which is kind of what this season, though it's not, needs a Timon and Pumbaa needs a pain and panic. Needs a kind of scrappy twosome. And they filled that role. They were sadly. The woman whose name I don't know, do not recall, apologies to her. But both.

[B]

But both great. Yeah. But there was a bit because Bo Niang has a podcast called Las Culturistas Ding Dong Last Culture ESA is coming and him and his co host interviewed Ariana Grande for it, whatever. And there was lots of behind the scenes yum yums. And so actually a great interview. I think you'd really like it. But the part that really struck me was that they had someone coming to film behind the scenes content during the whole week they were doing the Oz Ballroom and they just kept. People kept sort of being like, hey, you want to talk about how fun it is to be in. In Wicked or whatever. And everyone was just like, no, because we have to spend all day being horrible to Cynthia. And they talk about like how it was genuinely very. Oh, because she's such a. She's so. The phrase that they love. It's very theater kids in America. She's so dropped in like she's, she's so, you know, she's so feeling the hurt of everyone's scoring so much. And like every.

[A]

Every day, as discussed like that, that sequence was very, very hard. Like long and very much like, let us mock cruelly this woman for a reason that in our hearts and souls.

[B]

We do not believe, we do not understand. So it just seems.

[A]

Wearing a hat.

[B]

Yeah. So we're all just going to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like sort of yell and think of things that we can ad lib that are horrible about this poor woman standing in the middle of a. For Days.

[A]

I know. And who's next to Ariana Grande already incredibly famous, let's be honest. Like. And, you know, this could have run very badly for Cynthia if it went badly and being like, luckily, she obviously is incredibly talented, great. But, like, I'm sure for her, that was a stressful time. You're like, what the fuck am I doing? I'm in Wicked. Ariana Grande, and all of these people are being horrible to me day in, day out.

[B]

Day in, day out.

[A]

Someone grasp my claw, please.

[B]

So, yeah, I thought that was very interesting.

[A]

That's very nice. Unless, like, you know, I think. I imagine it's very hard doing those kind of things because, like, when you're doing things like this, because, like, you can say, see how hard it must have been to do, like, those sequences, man, you know, and there's a lot of, again, like, in dancing, your life and one shot, Day in the world City, and. And in the other big dance sequences, they. They did a really good job making sure there was lots of long continuous shots. Because they know that in, you know, tradition of great movie musicals, the thing that's impressive is staying in your shot, staying in that one shot, because that's what you want to capture. You want to just the money.

[B]

And it's like Gene Kelly on the lamp.

[A]

It literally is. It's. It's. It's Dick Van Dyke and your bamboo. Like, it's like, you want to see. The magic of dance is not that they can do it so they can do it all at once for a long time without fucking breaking it. Everyone's doing it all at once. And that's why stages are magical, right? Because you can't cut away to anything. You can't cut to a different moment. You're just watching these people in real time do it perfectly every fucking eight fucking shows a week. Unbelievable. And in a movie, the thing that you can capture with those shots is to kind of go, we can't show you these people working as hard as we possibly can, but we can stay in this moment and this dance for 20, 25, 30 seconds, and all of this will be magical for you and be smooth. And it is truly. It is truly a moment we are capturing. It is not pieced together. It's not a patchwork. It is actually what happened in that moment. These skills on display, this majesty has been captured for you. And we will show this in one clean sweep for you. It's really hard, but my point being, like, it's fucking hard. Just so hard. People being like, are you having A really? Are you having the best job time? You love this so much, I imagine, like, no, we've done this fucking sequence 50 times today and my costume hurts.

[B]

And I'm being mean the whole time.

[A]

Probably isn't actually that fun. Or if it's fun, it's in like fits and starts and like it's in moments and like again, as a person who makes, you know, makes things for stage and just like you want to go, thank you. Just thank you. Because the joy is all ours, you know, the joy is ours as the audience member to witness it. Like because of the fucking endless, endless toil and late nights and like, you know, to make it look like you're having. They're having fun. Like I feel like with this job, you know, the job is. The job is to make it look like it's all fun.

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

That's such part of the job is make sure your job looks fun. But also all of it is fun.

[B]

The second the audience picks up on you not wanting to be there, it breaks the whole thing.

[A]

No, you need to be enviable and you don't need, you know, but like, but that, but like it's kind of. That is part of. Written into the contract of being star of stage on screen, et cetera is like, it's gotta look fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're selling magic, like, and you can't. And you can't get away and you shouldn't get away from it. I think that is a different thing. I think to kind of the weird fucking transmogrification of that into being like Instagram. My life is perfect. Like that is a different thing. But I think no one really wants to. I don't think anyone wants to see back the stage of Wicked where everyone's like, yeah, it's been a really horrible day. Yeah. Yeah, this sucks.

[B]

To this day, when you were still. By the way, if anybody wants to go see Tash in the West End, you can't anymore because she's no longer playing the role. But you can go see her in Broadway.

[A]

Much cheaper to just get on a.

[B]

Plane and anytime, because we were in a very lively group chat together, anytime that it would hit 8:25 or whatever and you were back or whatever time you used to take your intermission and that you would just drop out of character, text us some silly guff and then go back on stage playing a 45 year old man in World War II. Every time I got one of those messages I was like, what the fuck? And me and Gav would be in bed next to each other, being like, what the fuck?

[A]

Yeah, it's absolutely wild. It's absolutely wild. But I feel like watching films like this, again, not to get too bad, but watching things like this and watching any. But it's such a great reminder of what the audience experience of these things are. Because I think it's so easy when you do it if you're in a Western show or Broadway show and you're doing it eight shows a week. And, like, small things can feel like you've done really badly or like the audience aren't responsive or you've dropped something or just something hasn't gone well enough. And like, for some reason you're not having a good show or there's a. Whatever. Whatever it is you can so easily fall into. Like, they must hate this. Like, I'm not. I'm not doing well enough. They're not giving them, like. And it's not. It's not enough. It's not enough. Or, I've done it better or. And actually, I think it's very, very helpful to reminder as an audience almost, your overwhelming sensation is like, this is amazing. This is magic. This story played out for me. This amazing story. These amazing characters, like. And watching this film, just being like, there is so much probable pain and hard work and hell of this, which we will never see. And I thank the volunteer. So I actually wrote down. I was reading about Stephen Schwartz, the composer sort of behind it, and the process that he went on to to make this movie and make this musical. And Mark Platt and David Stone, who were the wicked producers, did like, this. This presentation to him, like, he got an honorary Tony or something. And they shared with the audience Mark Platt's most prized possession, which is a note, and it says, I'll read it to you. So it's a note left on my desk written by Stephen after a particularly bloody day of reproduction. It says, david, I don't want to do this show. I quit. You can use my score, but take my name off it. Please do not call me. Speak from now on to Nancy Rose only. Goodbye, Stephen Schwartz.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And they said, luckily, five minutes later.

[B]

Oh, my God, he came back in the room so much.

[A]

But, like, that chimes. I mean, again, with anyone who. Anyone, anyone. Like, the thing of being, like, the things that are so good are also so hard.

[B]

But, yeah, and everyone who's made anything that's good has, like, has either had or two thirds of the way through that completion of that task has stepped back from it and said, like, this is a homunculus. Like, this is bad. This is a.

[A]

Take my name off it.

[B]

Take my name off it, Stephen Schwab.

[A]

If you must, but take my name off it. And, like, it's very comforting to me that, yeah, someone. Someone like that can. Can still feel that way. But I think. And it's that thing of, like, I'm very. I'm always very galvanized being like, but thing is you. But you're not making it for you. You're making it for the people who are watching it. And so. So I think it always makes me feel very privileged as someone watching anything, being like, you did all that. So I just get to have the best time with you without just holding hands in that screen, just being like, so much both incredible joy and happiness and inspiration, but also so much hideousness and toil and worry and stress goes into this because of the faith that ultimately it will be a thing that brings joy to people and that's way more important to produce, like, if you just did it because it was fun all the time, be the nicest job in the world. But it's like, no, it's not because it's nice all the time. It's because you just have. You believe there's a guiding light in you and in everyone in that. That production or movie or whatever it is that goes. It will be worth it for those people that watch this. It will be worth it. And I don't know about you, but.

[B]

For me, that gets me every time.

[A]

It couldn't be more worth it. I just. I just thought it was so, so magnificent. And I can't wait for part two. I'll see you back here for part two.

[B]

Well, I think we can leave it there. I mean, we should have left it here 10 minutes ago, but this has been too nice. This is too nice. Thank you so much for coming.

[A]

I told us. Okay. I love you.

[B]

Love you. Bye. Do you want to say your Broadway information?

[A]

Yes. For those interested, Operation Mincemeat is currently playing on the West End at the fourteen Theatre with an amazing cast who are much better than we ever were. And then for those who want to see us, we all be at the Golden Theatre on Broadway. Broadway, Broadway, from. In February. And we open, I think, March 20th for one of. I can't remember how long it is. Certainly sometimes until my knees tumble to thy ground. So, yes, please get tickets and come and enjoy the show.

[B]

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