64. “This Story Deserves the Best of Us” (with Cynthia Erivo)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sentimental Men - Episode 64: “This Story Deserves the Best of Us” (with Cynthia Erivo)

Podcast Information

• Title: Sentimental Men
• Host/Authors: Quincy Brown and Kevin Bianchi
• Description: Quincy Brown and Kevin Bianchi discuss and celebrate their favorite women in musical theatre.
• Episode: 64
• Title: “This Story Deserves the Best of Us” (with Cynthia Erivo)
• Release Date: November 15, 2024

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Introduction

The episode begins with a lively introduction featuring Cynthia Erivo, Kristin Chenoweth, Sara Bareilles, Gloria Steflin, Patti LuPone, and Lin Manuel Miranda, setting an enthusiastic tone for the conversation about Cynthia Erivo’s pivotal role in the upcoming Wicked movie adaptation.

Cynthia Erivo’s Journey to Wicked

Cynthia Erivo shares her deep connection with Wicked and how it influenced her career from an early age.

• Early Connection (00:05 - 06:09): Cynthia recounts discovering Wicked at drama school when she was 20 years old. She and her friend Michael Peoy would practice the entire musical, immersing themselves in the music before ever seeing the show live. This early dedication laid the foundation for her passion for the role of Elphaba.

  Cynthia Erivo [06:09]: "So when I say I knew the music, I learned the libretto. We just went through Day by Day and went back and went all the way through it often. So I knew everything."

• First Live Experience (06:55 - 07:59): At 25, Cynthia saw Wicked in London, which solidified her desire to be part of the musical theatre world. The immersive experience left her inspired and determined to contribute to such a powerful story.

  Cynthia Erivo [07:10]: "I immediately took to Elphaba because I understood what it was like to just sort of, like, be, like, different or not fitting in."

Securing the Role in the Movie (09:08 - 17:05)

Cynthia discusses her unexpected audition process for the Wicked movie.

• Audition Process (09:08 - 15:23): Despite her experience and preparedness, the opportunity to play Elphaba never materialized until the film audition. Cynthia preferred not to be aware of the casting process, hoping to shield herself from potential disappointment.

  Cynthia Erivo [09:23]: "I knew that they were seeing people for the film, and I told my team to not say anything to me at all."

• The Pitch (17:05 - 19:58): Cynthia describes the emotional moment when she received the call to audition. The respectful and thorough audition process involved extensive preparation, including a three-hour session where she performed multiple scenes and songs.

  Cynthia Erivo [17:05]: "I was just like, ready, let's go. Let's do this. I think it was early we went through the music..."

Behind the Scenes: Building the Relationship with Co-Stars (22:04 - 30:30)

Cynthia highlights the collaborative efforts in creating a meaningful connection with Ariana DeBose, her co-star.

• Initial Collaboration (22:04 - 26:31): Cynthia emphasizes the importance of building trust and understanding with Ariana from the outset. Their first joint performance underscored their harmonious vocal chemistry and mutual respect.

  Cynthia Erivo [26:31]: "There is nothing more wonderful than realizing that your voice works with someone else's. It is really special."

• Mutual Support (27:55 - 30:30): The duo made a pact to support each other throughout the filming process, ensuring that both could maintain their emotional well-being while navigating the demanding schedule of a major film production.

  Cynthia Erivo [27:55]: "We're always moving together. So it's never, I'm never over there and she's over here."

Filming Challenges and Logistics (32:30 - 63:06)

Cynthia delves into the practical and emotional challenges of portraying Elphaba on screen.

• The Greens and Make-Up Process (32:30 - 45:10): Cynthia explains the meticulous process of transforming into Elphaba, including airbrushing with specially formulated green makeup, applying prosthetics, and maintaining the look throughout long shooting hours.

  Cynthia Erivo [43:53]: "Freckles were a choice. Immediately I was like, I think she should have freckles. I think because there's something about the freckles that make her really endearing."

• Stunt Work and Flying Sequences (55:38 - 63:06): Discussing the physical demands of the role, Cynthia describes the harness systems used for flying scenes, the rigorous training involved, and the emotional toll of performing complex stunts.

  Cynthia Erivo [58:47]: "He decided that he wanted defying gravity to feel like a combination of all of the iconic superhero moves that you've seen."

  Cynthia Erivo [60:02]: "All of these elements coming together... is it the wizard of Night? That's not a small day. It's like, what."

Emotional Depth and Character Portrayal (66:16 - 68:46)

Cynthia shares her approach to portraying Elphaba’s emotional journey, focusing on vulnerability and resilience.

• Character’s Inner Strength (66:16 - 68:46): She explains that Elphaba’s lack of anger towards the world stems from her acceptance and love, allowing her to forge meaningful connections despite feeling different.

  Cynthia Erivo [68:46]: "I think what we did know intrinsically was how special this thing was. We were both really clear on the fact that we wanted to not just do a good job, but really take care of this."

Rapid Fire Segment (71:42 - 73:40)

In a playful rapid-fire round, Cynthia and her co-stars answer fun questions, highlighting their camaraderie and emotional investment in the project.

• Most Likely Moments:

  • First to Set: Ariana
  • Last to Leave: Allison (She hinted at Ariana’s tendency to stay longer)
  • Most Likely to Cry on Set: Both Cynthia and Ariana

  Cynthia Erivo [72:44]: "We cried a lot. She cried immediately. And I would be like, we have things to do. But then it would come, I would resist for a little bit, and then it would all fall to pieces."

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks and reflections on the intense but rewarding experience of bringing Wicked to the big screen. Cynthia expresses her gratitude and excitement for the future projects.

Cynthia Erivo [74:44]: "Thank you very much. This is wonderful. I'm so glad I got to do this with you."

Notable Quotes

• Cynthia Erivo [07:10]: "I immediately took to Elphaba because I understood what it was like to just sort of, like, be, like, different or not fitting in."
• Cynthia Erivo [26:31]: "There is nothing more wonderful than realizing that your voice works with someone else's. It is really special."
• Cynthia Erivo [32:30]: "Freckles were a choice... because there's something about the freckles that make her really endearing."
• Cynthia Erivo [65:01]: "She does love her sister and she does love Dulcibear."

Key Insights and Takeaways

• Passion and Preparation: Cynthia’s early and deep connection with Wicked demonstrates the importance of passion and thorough preparation in securing significant roles.
• Collaborative Spirit: Building strong relationships with co-stars and crew members is crucial in creating a cohesive and emotionally resonant performance.
• Physical and Emotional Challenges: The role of Elphaba requires both physical stamina and emotional resilience, highlighting the multifaceted demands of film acting.
• Character Depth: Cynthia’s portrayal of Elphaba emphasizes acceptance and love over anger, offering a nuanced take on a traditionally misunderstood character.

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections from the transcript were excluded to maintain focus on the substantive discussions and insights shared by Cynthia Erivo and her co-hosts.

Transcript

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, y'all.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

This is Kristin Chenoweth.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, I'm Gloria Steflin.

[Sara Bareilles]

This is Sara Bareilles.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, I'm Patti LuPone. This is Lin Manuel Miranda.

[Sara Bareilles]

You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, Quincy. Here we are, our Cynthia Erivo episode.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Our Cynthia Erivo episode.

[Sara Bareilles]

Much anticipated, much prepared for, much sought after, and here it is.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

What a moment.

[Sara Bareilles]

And in the midst of the whirlwind press tour that this cast is currently on, the Wicked bonanza, I feel privileged and honored to be a little blip in the mass hysteria and just privileged.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

To be living in a timeline where anytime you open up your phone, there's Wicked content. New Wicked content.

[Sara Bareilles]

I know.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

It's a blessing to the cast and creative team. Thank you so much for pounding the pavement on the press tour. We are really appreciating it. And the movie comes out so soon.

[Sara Bareilles]

The movie comes out. I know. A week from today. If you're listening to this, the day. It comes out. A week from today.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Wow.

[Sara Bareilles]

After years and years of waiting, we'll no longer be living in a world where the Wicked movie is not available to the general public.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And I gotta tell you, as the days have gone by, I'm getting very excited for part two.

[Sara Bareilles]

I know.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

But we got a lot of time to talk about part two.

[Sara Bareilles]

I got to start thinking of some new talking points about part two.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Kevin, we also got to go to the Wicked movie premiere in Los Angeles last week.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh, my God. I know. I almost forgot because it truly feels like a month ago. That's how many premieres they've had since then. I'm like, that truly cannot have been just last weekend.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah, we're recording this on the eve of the New York premiere. They already had a Mexico City premiere in between LA and New York, and then I think they're finishing in London next week.

[Sara Bareilles]

That sounds right to me.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

This interview is one of my favorite interviews we've done. I left the recording session very misty eyed.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. I think it's a really special conversation. Her experience with the show is so singular or with the role is so singular that I feel very lucky that she opened up with us the way she did.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah. Let's get into it. Before we do, this will be the same situation as the Ariana episode, spoiler free episode. So there'll be some fast forward scrubbing that you hear. That means we're talking about spoilers. We want you all to be able to see the movie with as fresh of eyes as possible. And then speaking of, we are also going to push back the release of the two extended spoiler included episodes for Ariana and Cynthia. Just to give everyone a little more time to see it first before we all discuss. Yes. So Ariana's extended episode is going to drop on December 2nd, and Cynthia's is going to come on December 9th. So just pushing everything a week. But go see the movie. Go see it three or four times before.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah, I was going to say use those extra days to see it again and again.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

All right, let's get into it. All right, excited. I'm Quincy.

[Sara Bareilles]

And I'm Kevin.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And this is Sentimental Men.

[Sara Bareilles]

We're here to talk and maybe scream about our favorite women in musical theater.

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

Cynthia Erivo, thank you so much for joining us on Sentimental Men today.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh, it feels good to say this.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Is such a moment during the midst of, like, the craziest moment of the Wicked press tour.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually nuts. We leave for Australia in three, three or four days.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Is that the first premiere?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's the first premiere.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Gotcha. And then you're just traveling the world?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Sara Bareilles]

How are you feeling in this moment?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm feeling really excited. I thought I would be more tired than I am. I'm not. So I feel like I'm sort of ready to get going. I say that now. Speak to me in two days. But I'm excited. I think it's gonna be really special.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay, so we start every interview with, how did Wicked the Musical come into your life as just a person?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wicked the Musical came into my life when I was about 20 years old at drama school. I was sort of like the odd one out at drama school. I always felt sort of different and of mine or who? Someone who became a friend. His name is Michael Peoy and he could play piano and I could sing, and he spotted me and Was like, hey, you, do you want to sing some stuff? And I said, well, yeah, sure. So he picked up a couple librettos, and one of those Bretos happened to be wicked. So we went to a little room with a piano and we kept playing the music. And I learned the music before I saw the show.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And what were you singing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, the whole front to back singing everything. So when I say I knew the music, I learned the libretto. We just went through Day by Day and went back and went all the way through it often. So I knew everything. I think his favorite song. I want to say his favorite song was it wasn't the wizard. And I. I think he kept asking me to sing that one, but we sung it all. It was a toss up between that and Dream Girls. That's what we. And then when I was 25, I took myself on a solo date to see the musical in London, and that was. That's history. So then, 10 years later, do you.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Remember who you saw in London as Elphaba and Glinda?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't. And I think I went to see the show. Not just to see the show, but also because I think a friend of mine was running the sound desk during that. But I can't remember who it was I saw.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Talk to us about that first experience seeing it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I immediately took to Elphaba because I understood what it was like to just sort of, like, be, like, different or not fitting in. And I know something went off in my brain, and I never forgot that moment. It was sort of one of those moments that sort of stuck with me. I felt. I said before that it felt like I floated home because I couldn't get the feeling out of my head. I couldn't get out of my body. I remember loving it. I sat in the dress circle, you would call the. Not the balcony, but, like the.

[Sara Bareilles]

The mezzanine.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The mezzanine. Yeah. Where the flying monkeys come into the audience.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I was. I felt like a kid. I was like, oh, my God, what is. What's happening? It's just. It was one of the most wonderful experiences because I felt like there was something I could. I had recognized on a stage, and it was something that I wanted to be a part of. Yeah.

[Sara Bareilles]

At that point, like, when you're learning this music in drama school with your friend and you're seeing the show, are you identifying this as, like, this is something I want to do in my career, you know, as an actress? I want to be in the show. I want to play this part.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't Know if it was playing the part, but I knew I loved the music, so I think. I think the grander scheme of musical was something. I knew that I wanted to be a part of my career for sure. Yeah. When I. I think when I saw it, I was like, oh, I like that part. There's something about that part that could. That feels good. That feels right. Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

So then, as you started building your stage career, did the opportunity to play it on stage ever come up in those years? Really?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Never.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Especially with the voice you have?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No. I mean, it never came up. Yeah. Well, there's. We now know there's a reason why it didn't.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yes. Yes. Everything for a reason. Yeah. So then how did it come up. How did it come up to you the first time with this film?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I knew that they were seeing people for the film, and I told my team to not say anything to me at all. I don't want to know. Don't tell me anything unless it looks like it might come my way. Other than that, I was just like, I don't want to know it. Don't tell me about it. Because I think a part of me was like, if I. If I just ignore what's happening and it doesn't come my way, I. I won't feel that hurt by it. Because I think deep down I knew that I would love to have been a part of it. So I was like, if I don't have. If I'm not connected, if I don't know anything about it, then I can. I can go on about my business. Like it. Like, protect your feelings. Yeah, I can protect myself. And I'm. I'm good.

[Sara Bareilles]

But.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But then I bumped into John at some event and we talked, and then we talked again. And then.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Who brought up Wicked?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think he might have brought up Wicked. He said, so we're doing this and I know you're directing. Great. Yeah. And I think. And I think we were just sort of like, having a discussion about what I felt this person would be and what their story was. And this person, meaning Elphaba, and who she was and what she meant to me and what I could possibly bring to it. And I think he just took that into consideration. And then he went away. And I remember we had a conversation. The next conversation we had. So ridiculously bougie. The next conversation we had was, I think, the day of the Met gala. So the next conversation we had was that met Gala, 2022 or 2021. And I was in a hotel and we zoomed and we Just chatted about it. And then I got the call to say they want you to go in. And I think I was the last person they saw.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Right. Like, had you been hearing about other people going in for it at this point?

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I kept telling them just, I don't care, don't tell me, please. I don't want to know. I don't want to know. And they were like, they might call you in. It looks like they might call you in. I said, when they call me in, tell me, please. And when they. When they called me in, it was. I. It was so respectful because they. He called me just to do. It was like a screen test, but it was three hours. I was there for three hours. I. I worked with two other actresses scenes, songs, damn near all of them, which. And I was so ready for it because I remember when I. When I got the sides and the music, I trained like a boxer. So I ran things. Thank you so much. I ran whilst I was singing. I would pace and like, just getting movement into my body so I could be ready to do it when I got there. Learned this singing in the shower. Over and over again, repeated, repeating everything over and over again. Reading these scenes over and over again because I just wanted to be. When I got there, I wanted to be so present in it that I wasn't really thinking about which words were coming out of my mouth, which song was coming out. And I remember the day before I had a concert at Disney Hall. This is the wildness of my life. I had a concert at Disney with the LA Philharmonic and Gustavo Didamel conducting. And I knew once I finished, I needed to get home very quickly because I was in the next day early to this audition. And I was. I just was so ready to go in and show what I had. Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah. So take us inside. That first audition, what were you doing? And then how were you feeling after the fact?

[Cynthia Erivo]

When I. The first audition I went in with, I sort of. I was just like, ready, let's. Let's go. Let's do this. I think it was early we went through the music, we. Because I think I got there and I was on my own for a little bit before the first actress showed up. And we sort of practiced with the pianist who was there that day. He was very lovely. I remember that. No, he was very sweet and like. Yeah, like warm. And he played beautifully as well, which is sometimes very rare at an audition. Like, there was no rush. It was like, let's play all the. All the incidentals. We're going to do all of that, you know, And I remember thinking, oh, this is nice. Oh, I can sing. Sing with this. This is good. So I went through the music with him and then the first actress comes in and then we start going through the scene work. And I just. I remember feeling really present for all of it. And there was a point where John asked me about my relationship to Wicked and how I'd come to it. And when I. When I went to explain what happened at my drama school, it made me really emotional because I think I. It was the first time I'd realized I really did feel out of sorts at drama school. Like, I really didn't feel like I fit in that place. And this particular piece was a little space to go to that where I did fit, you know, that's. That's what this piece did for me whilst I was at drama school. And so I think that it dawned on me that that was what was happening at drama school. And to come round to it at this point, to do it this way, just felt really massive. Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

So how long was your audition process.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In all that day? Three hours.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

That was it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was it.

[Sara Bareilles]

One and done.

[Cynthia Erivo]

One and done.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Wow.

[Sara Bareilles]

And to be clear, Ariana was not either of those chemistry reads.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She was not, no.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

When did you get the call after that first audition?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I want to say it was about two or three weeks after.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Wow, that's fascinating because I think Ariana told us about. She had a three month process.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She was in. She. She went in four or five times.

[Sara Bareilles]

Wow. And so what were those two, three weeks like after? It was like, I don't want to hear about it. I want to hear about it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was hellish. I was like, when are we finding out? For God's sakes, please, when are we finding out? And I was in the middle of. What was I doing? I think I was doing Luther at that point. So I was in London, like, just waiting, just waiting and budding my time and figuring it out and working. It's just. Just the anticipation of, like, what is happening? Is it happening? Is it not happening? Have I. Have I not got it? What. What's. What's going on? I think what John. I think John did both of us a favor. I think John did the wonderful thing of allowing. Allowing Ariana to be de. To deconstruct the thing that has been built, the person who's been built, so that she could just be in the room. And I think he did me the service of giving me the chance to lose it. It was mine to Lose, I think when he. So the way he had set it up. So when I. When he brought me in, I had all the tools I needed and I'd had the time I needed to be as ready as I possibly could be. And so it was sort of like, take it and run or leave.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

It sounds like you felt very safe in that room.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did. No, I really did.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

So then you get the call. What is the first thought that comes into your head?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I have to tell you how the call happens, though, because my team, my. They're dramatic. Just dramatic. Ridiculous and dramatic. I get an email. I get an email that says, cynthia, we've got this piece of IP and we think it could be really good for your production company. And Yoon Salome, who's my production partner, I think we need to jump on a call at some point. And then I get a text from my agent. Actually, you know what, Cynthia? I think we should jump on a call, like right now, because now is. It's going to go. And I know it's late there, but it's not so late here. But the author is like, ready to go and have a conversation about it. It's 1:00am in London.

[Sara Bareilles]

Oh, my gosh.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's 1am in London. First of all, why does my team know that I'm going to be awake?

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Why is that like an okay thing to ask?

[Cynthia Erivo]

They just know I'm going to be awake at 1am in the morning. And they're correct because that's how I am. So I read this email. I'm like, okay. And I text back, okay, I'm ready. And I'm in my pajamas. So I'm like, but my pajamas don't look like pajamas. So that's good. We'll keep that on. Let's put a pair of glasses on. Let's go. I'm ready. So I get myself set up on the sofa and if I just have like the, you know, right waist up, we're good. It's perfect. And I put this computer on. He's like, I get a zoom link. Zoom link comes on. John Shoe's name comes up. It's 1:00am in the morning, remember? So I go, maybe he knows something about the book. I don't know. Then faces start coming up on the screen. I'm still not. I still don't have it. I'm like, what is this book? Let's. I guess there's another one to talk about. Maybe everyone's involved. Who knows?

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Like, all right, who's leading this meeting?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, nothing is nothing. Is connecting. Nothing's connecting. And then John starts to talk about this girl who was at this drama school who felt like she was out of sorts. And she goes to this room and sing the music. And then she walks into this room one day and starts singing about the screen girl. And. And I'm like. And now everything's starting to piece together. And I'm like, don't play with me. Don't play. And he goes. And I don't know what planet you came from, but I think the rest of the world should see more of you. And I just. I was. Lost it. I lost it. We want you to be our Alphabet. And I just. I don't even think I could fat. I couldn't be articulate. All I could do was cry. And in that, like, I have glasses on. I put my head. My head and my arms. The glasses flip up over my head. I just am like. All I could say is thank you very much. Because it's sort of like the culmination of a dream that you didn't realize that you even had until you had to be in the situation of wanting the dream.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was the wildest moment ever. I cannot tell you what happened the rest. For the rest of the night.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Right? Like, was there banter on the zoom after? Did you hang up?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I have no idea. I think we had a little chat. Everything was a blur after that. I don't know who I called after. I think I called my mom. It was 1:00am in the morning. I was like, it's 1:00am in the morning. I can't call my mom.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Who do I call?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, what time? How early is it? Too early to call anyone. Like what? I don't know if I slept that night.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Did you know who your Glinda was in that call or did that come later?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think I found out a little later after that call. Like that. The same day.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Gotcha.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That it was Ari. Which did not surprise me one bit. I was not surprised at all. I was deeply relieved because I knew it was going to be handled in the best way possible. Yeah, that was like, oh, good. Fabulous. That's what we do. Yeah.

[Sara Bareilles]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Sara Bareilles]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

If you love Broadway gossip, you are not going to want to miss any episode of this podcast, Singular Sensation, the triumph of Broadway.

[Sara Bareilles]

Plenty of dramas unfold on stage, but.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The best dramas unfold backstage. And there were no bigger dramas than behind the scenes of Sunset Boulevard.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

So you were being crucified over here, but not there?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, because I was turning in a performance that would standing abations. Excuse me.

[Sara Bareilles]

So check out my podcast, Singular Sensation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

For all the juicy details of Sunset Boulevard. I was like, it was one of the most incredible moments to experience, one of the most surreal things to experience.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

So then what was the immediate excitement and also apprehension as you're coming to terms with the fact that you're about to embark on this journey.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The excitement. I don't think either one of us could fathom how big this was. I think we had an idea of the fact that this was big, but I don't think we really let ourselves understand the size of it, even seeing.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

What it's doing now. I'm like, wow, this is a thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is a thing.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

I love Wicked, and this is a thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is a thing. And. But every day feels like, oh, oh, this is like a thing. This is a thing. Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know when you. You see people running to Target and grabbing Stanley cups and fighting over Stanley cups? You're like, oh, this is a thing. And someone, you know, a doll comes to a doll with your face on it.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. I mean, hello comes to you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And someone says, can you sign my doll? And you go, my face is on a doll.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

I'm a tell. Barbie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm a tell. I'm a Barbie, guys.

[Sara Bareilles]

You are a Barbie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My nose and my lips are on a Barbie. Like, what is happening? That's. None of us could fathom that this would be what it is right now. I went through times. I was driving past times, and there's the most ridiculously huge billboard combined with a huge moving billboard and a double and a poster of the both of us. And then there's. I don't even. I've never seen myself that big in my life. Like, what is that? It's insane. The whole thing is insane. Neither one of us could probably, could possibly have fathomed that that was what was going to happen. But I think we also. What we did know intrinsically was how special this thing was. We were both really clear on the fact that we wanted to not just do a good job, but really take care of this. Like, take as much care of this as we possibly could. And to do that, we did the opposite of fanfare. We sort of, like, went right zero in. How do we do this? Where do we begin? What do we need? And that was. That's how we've done this from. From the beginning. She and I knew we needed to come together first without everybody. So she came to my house and we sat, we chatted. We just, like, were. We got to know each other. Then we went to John's house and just. It was him, Winnie, Stephen, Aramis, Stephen Schwartz, myself and Ari. And we just sort of, I think. Did Johnny come? I want to say maybe Johnny came.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And how does the conversation even get kicked off with that group? Where do you start?

[Cynthia Erivo]

John is really good at. Start, like, giving good speeches. John is very good at, like, opening the floor.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Gotcha.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's his, like, it's, like, secret talent that he has. So he's like. So I wanted to welcome everyone. I know we're about to go on this big journey. And he has, like, a table laid out of, like, a costume, like, because he'd been working with Paul. So Paul has, like, some examples of what the costumes might be like. And we. He has sweet, sweet man. He got little trays, like, little yellow brick roads for us, like. Like model yellow brick roads for each of us. So we have that, and we signed. Each one of us signed it. So we have this. I have mine put on a tray. And, like, I've kept that. And so we have it. He opens the floor up that way. And then at some point in the day, we have a dinner together. So we all sit, we break bread together. And then in the evening, Ari and I sing with Stephen Schwartz, and that's the first time we sing together. And the first time we sing together, we sing for good.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And you've worked with Stephen before?

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is my first time working with Steven.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Oh, really? Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My first time working with Steven. It's my first time singing with Ari.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Gotcha. A moment.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Sara Bareilles]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Big day. Big day. But it was wonderful. And I think that moment for Ari and I was really special because it was the first time we had heard our voices together, and we quickly realized that it works.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And there is nothing more wonderful than realizing that your voice works with someone else's. It is really special, especially if this is the first time you've sung together.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We had not practiced. We had not sung this before. It just worked.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah. Were There tears.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yes, I have tears. Yes, there it is. Yes, there were tears. There was. We were both speechless. We didn't know what to say. It's because it's an emotional thing to be able to. An emotional and vulnerable thing to have to sing with someone when you've not sung with them before. You really do have to open yourself up to that person and allow yourself to hear them and allow yourself to be heard, to combine your voices. The way that happened and we did it immediately and that was really special. I think that. And that moved us both. It was sort of like an indication of what the rest of this was going to be like. If we could do that without having done this before, if we could do that with no practice, if we could do that in front of a room of people with nothing, no makeup, nothing, then we could. Then we could really do this.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah. You know, you and Ariana have both talked about this pact you made at the beginning of the process to protect and take care of each other. Can you talk a little bit more about what that looks like day to day as you go through this journey day to day?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's sort of allowing. We're making decisions together, always making decisions together. We're always moving together. So it's never. I'm never over there and she's over here. We're always, like, in tandem. And if. We. If. And we were always looking out for each other as well. So if, say, for instance, there was a. If there's a particular scene that needs a little quiet or I need a little bit of privacy or. Or time, and it's. And it doesn't feel like that she would take on the task of going, hey, she needs quiet. Or if. If Ari is in a particular. Because we both need different things to make the moment. We both need different things to get us where we need to be. Ari needs contact when. When. When there's emotion. So she needs to be close. So I'd just be there with her for a second. And sometimes I need to be, like, alone to find myself in. And she would give me the space. Or if we're working on something and both of us need a break and it feels like we're. It's running away from us. Both of us make the agreement. Should we ask. I think we should take a break. Should we ask, then we ask together. Hey, both of us would really love a break, if that's possible. You know, sort of taking the responsibility to work in the atmosphere together. That sort of. And also just like being comfortable having Conversations. Because we, we built this relationship not just for Wicked, but for outside. For us as two human beings outside of this film, but as, like, what? Two women together. So that means opening yourself up to conversations that might have to come up. Things that, you know, if I, if I've had a bad day, then I want to have the conversation with her. And it's not necessarily the prettiest conversation, but she's open and open for me to have that conversation. If she hasn't had a great day and something's going on and she wants to discuss something and figure something out, my phone is on. Or she, if I need to come over, she has to come over. Whatever it is, we're always there for each other. Not just for the good moments, but for the moments that are a little more complicated, you know? Yeah. That, that means that there's a level of honesty and intimacy that allows for us to actually to make something like this because the intimacy is necessary to make something as big as this at least feel connected, you know?

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah. And something that I think reads so, so clearly in your performance, your joint performance, is like the love story of these two women. It is a story about these two women learning how to love each other and hearing the ways that you are taking care of each other off stage or not off stage. Off.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Not.

[Sara Bareilles]

Not in front of the camera. It all clicks. It's like, well, that is so tangible and permeable on screen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, it's like a daily, sort of a daily recitative, you know? I mean, I, I, we speak to each other every day. If we don't speak to each other every day, we will, we will have text each other, even if it's just like, hey, have a good day. We'll just. What's going on? I have to do a speech at something. And I was running it and checking it and rewriting, and I wasn't sure about it, so I was like, so I've read it to her already. And then I had to go away and rewrite something else, and I sent it to her. It's like, I finished it, but she remembered that was writing the speech. So she said, hey, I think you're finishing the speech today. Send it to me if you want. Let me, let me have a read if you. I want to hear how it's going. So I sent her the speech. She read it. She was like, that feels good. It feels really genuine. I was like, there's no, nothing that we need to, like, change. No, that's really great. I like that. I Love this. And picking specific moments. So it's like a true, honest understanding of what I'm doing. And music comes. We were. I. While she was making her album, I was making my album. So I'm listening to her music. She's been listening to my music. I finally finished mine. I've sent her the music. She's listened to it. She's come back with, this is how we function, you know, so it's true understanding of who we are, what we need, and it's an ongoing back and forth in life in general.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Cynthia, can we talk about the filming of the ASDA scene? Just because Chris Murphy alluded to it in his cover story. And when we were talking to Ariana, she. There seems to be like some sort. Like something feels important about the filming of that scene. And I would love to hear your take on it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, so when we, when we started rehearsing it, I think they. They had had a dance choreographed already. And when we, when we did it, I remember thinking, this doesn't feel like her movement. So I was like, can we just start from the beginning and find out how she moves? Just find out what she does? Because I knew that I didn't want it to be her discovering movement for the first time. I knew that I didn't want it to be her learning to dance. I knew that I wanted it to be someone who understands movement but in a different way. She's learned to move differently. She's had different experiences. She's been raised in a different way and so hasn't been to dance parties, but. But understands movement but her own way. It's very individual to her. So we created something that felt like Elphaba. And then I had questions about, well, why would she put the hat back on? There has to be a reason why she puts this hat back on. And then we sort of decided, well, what if she decides to imbue this thing that when she first saw it, she thought was beautiful, she thought was different and strange, like her could see herself in the hat. So if we put the. Take this hat off because of the hurt, there's a choice to put it back on. So what if you fill it with power? What if it really does become an emblem of something that holds power? Maybe this is like the first time she casts something unknowingly, but she does that. And then that dance isn't just a spell to cast, but it's sort of an ownership of space, an ownership of her loneliness, an ownership of her hurt, an ownership of her difference and her separation and shooting it was just painful, but in the most beautiful way because she has to be brave enough to do it in front of everybody. She has to be brave enough to say, okay, fine, I'll be on my own. I'll do it by myself, you know. So she takes up this space, which is a brave thing to do anyway, and places herself right in the center of it. And there's a level of vulnerability, insecurity, hurt, pain, love. That has to come to the surface when you do that. And when we did, it was deathly silent.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And what are you, as Cynthia, bringing to that moment?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I, I just thought of all of the times where I felt like I was alone. And I thought of all the times where I felt like I didn't feel seen. And I felt, I thought of all the times where you don't feel accepted in a crowd and you feel that you stand out, but you don't want to stand out. I just knew that those are the things that she. That would come to the surface for her. And there is a particular kind of pain that comes from feeling like you finally found someone who sees you a little bit. And when that becomes a betrayal, it's just hard. Yeah. And I think that that's that final moment where she looks at Linda is less of a. Less an accusation. But why would you do this to me? Wow. You know? Yeah. I always feel like it was like a pleading of like, what, what did I do to deserve this? You know? Yeah. And I think, I think in that moment they, they really see each other. It's when Glinda sees. Oh, it's another. It's a human. That's a human being.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

It gets her to snap out of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And that, that moment where Gwynda dances on her own and tries to do this dance, I always think is the most vulnerable moment of like asking for forgiveness and wanting to connect. And the first time Elphaba sort of, she says, follow me. And she puts her hands and waits. That's a. Okay. Should we start again? And that's when they start to discover each other. Looking for a pickup truck to get just about anything done. Look no further. The Chevy Silverado EV isn't just the most powerful Silverado ever with next level towing capability and technology. It also offers game changing versatility with the available multiflex midgate and tailgate.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

To nearly 11ft in length. Chevrolet together.

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Sara Bareilles]

Like this podcast you're listening to right now.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Then when it's over, you should also.

[Sara Bareilles]

Tune into the Theater Podcast with Alan Seals.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's me, Alan Seals.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Sara Bareilles]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Sara Bareilles]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

Or just curious about the magic behind the curtain, the Theater Podcast with Alan.

[Sara Bareilles]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

And Ari didn't. Ari always wanted to. Whenever we do the dance together, she would try to forget it. She didn't want to over rehearse it because she wanted to learn on the spot. So it was like teaching a person this piece. Her language. Fresh every time. Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Thank you for sharing that. That's really beautiful. And it's kind of blown up how I view that moment in the movie now.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we weren't intending to take. It wasn't like the intention to be like, we will not have any laughs at all. I just. I just knew what I wanted to say for her.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that's what I wanted to say for her. Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

There's something interesting there, too, with that take on the moment of Elphaba's ability to feel that betrayal, but then easily choose to forgive quickly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. I think she wants to be loved as well. And I also think that. I think Elphaba has this wonderful way of seeing past the veneer. She does it with Fiero. She does it with Dr. Dillerman. She does. She sees some people. It takes longer than the others, but she does it with the Wizard. She does it with Madame Marvel. She sees past things. She sees what she wants to see because she's a hurt being. So with Madame Morrible, she doesn't see soon enough because she feels really accepted. It's someone who wants her for her. And it's like, oh, my gosh, someone's. They see me, they think this thing that I have hated my whole life is a talent. It's a talent. I've never been hurt. She'd never heard it called a talent before. She was sent away because it. It scared people. You know, it was the destruction of her for a long time. Now all of a sudden, it's the one thing that makes her special.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So she. I think she's a little bit blind in it. I think she doesn't see Madam Morrible for what she is until it's too late. Well, almost too late. But with everyone else she kind of gets them. She sees the thin veil and goes past it.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Something that comes up a lot with the actresses we speak to who do the role on stage is obviously how demanding this role is to do. You are the only actress who has done this role on film. So I would love to hear about the just logistics of playing Elphaba on screen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Logistics. The logistics of doing Elphaba on screen.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Starting with getting green. I guess we have. We haven't talked about that yet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So my. My mornings because we would. We would often start early. My mornings would probably start at like 3am in the morning. I would work out because she is quite physical and there's lots of flying and there's lots of harness work. So I needed to make sure that my body was ready to take on all of that. But I would. So I get ready in the morning. I get in. Depending on when they needed me in the chair could be 6:00, could be 5:00, depends. And I'd be in the chair from for two hours and 45 minutes to sometimes four hours. When we had full body, it was four hours. Because we would sometimes have. So anytime between that amount of time.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And what is the greenifying process.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So gratifying process is we have airbrushing with paint just like a. It's like an alcohol based paint. You would. We'd have a primer first. They made. They made greens specific to me. So there were greens that had my tone in. In it. So I. There's like a highlighter yellow almost in the. In that the green airbrushing paint and there's like a warmer yellow in the primer so that my skin tone would still come through to a point. So it wouldn't. But the green would match me. We tried a different. We tried a bunch of different greens before we landed. And then this green was made because the first green was. Had pink in it and it was too chalky. So we needed something that was a bit warmer so it would match my skin tone. And what we would do is put in the definition first with a deep, deep like a dark purple almost black. My cheekbones and my freckles. I want to say my freckles would go on after. So we have primer. Then the definition. We're going. So cheekbones and freckles would go on.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Were freckles always a choice from the get go.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Freckles were a choice. Immediately I was like, I think she should have freckles. I think because there's something about the freckles that make. That makes her really endearing that and it sort of opens up the face. And I thought that was a really cool thing to try. And also it gave me because I thought about all of the things that we associate with witches. So it's like the wart on the nose or the wart on the wart on the chin. And what I. What I loved was that I thought of those things as folklore. So what was originally a beauty spot.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Became turned into a wall.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, so you see all these freckles, and then there's one like that just is like on its own, and there's one that's on its own. So when we move further on, you'll start. You'll see that more freckles appear, but they're in different places. Interesting as is with what would happen when you. When you grow older. And so we would. We would again, prime put in our definition. And the freckles would go on. We made a vacuum form of my face and poked the holes in the freckles where the freckles were so that the freckles would stay in exactly the same place every single time.

[Sara Bareilles]

Brilliant.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that was what we would do. And then the airbrush would go over. Now my head would be airbrushed because when you put the wig on, my scalp also needs to be green.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So when my hair moves around, you see my scalp through the braids. But it is. It's my scalp that is green, which I love because it meant that it felt like it's all connected. And the wig itself had tinted green lace, so it wouldn't show. It was like it disappeared on my head. I didn't necessarily need to take out my piercings. Now, they weren't earrings like this, but they were all flat studs. So we had prosthetics over my ears. So we do prosthetics to cover up the holes and the piercings. So my. The ears that you see aren't my. They're my ears, but they're not. They're covered by a prosthetic that. But the prosthetic is my color first. So they would actually spray that to be the matching green. This process, it's really love. The wig itself was always styled, and we. We knew that we. You'll see that there's like a little baby hair. There's like A little curly baby hair that's always in the front of my head. We were very specific about that one Kiss curl, a tiny little baby curl that was always in it. Sometimes it's facing this way, sometimes it's facing that way, but it's always there. But my wig stylist and wig maker worked together to make sure that the hair would change as we go along. So in the beginning, it's sort of in the side braid, tight together. And you'll notice as we go through, it gets looser and looser. So then it goes. You know, we have the rolls and that when we get. After the. After the Oz dust and she's been galindified, I asked for them to give me a hairstyle that was Galinda adjacent, which is why you get that sort of, like, right and hair down. And then when she. When Fiera walks by and says, you don't have to do that, that role becomes this. So it's like a proper Victoria role. And then the rest is just like. So she starts to find herself stylistically as we move through the piece, and that was something I knew I wanted to do, grow her as we went along. And the braids get a little longer, and they get a little freer. They get a little wavier, so there's more movement in it.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

You're going to be stunning in the second movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

The way we're trending, it's a thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a thing. And it does. It just. It does change. The trajectory of it is like it's moving towards something that feels freer and wilder and a lot. And I love. I love what we. What we. How we grew it. None of the makeup on my face, except for the definition, is any other color than green. Ah. So eyeliner is green. The lash, the eyeshadow green, lipstick green, lip liner green. It's all shades of green, but we found all the different shades of green so that we could find dimension and things and something I wanted because I was like, what I want. Is it all to come from the shades that she like. It's her. So we used loads of different things. We had, like, a green gel, so the palms of her hands were green, but they still look like palms.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So they're not the same as the back of her hand. They're very much like, you know how your palms are lighter than the rest of you?

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The green is slightly lighter and slightly translucent. So my skin tone comes through, but it's still green.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

We keep it coming.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love to do it. I loved I love being involved in all of this. So I would, I would do my lips and my, and my, I would get in my eyes and stuff. So they would leave like my, my lips I would always do myself because I love to be involved in like the shading of it. Making that happen. I always do my eyeliner. Nails were a big part of this. I took the inspiration originally from the picture of Margaret Hamilton, you know, which is to the side.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I, when I went to, I, I've seen the picture many times. And then I went back to the picture and I thought, what am I seeing? So I saw a clip of the film and I realized, well, she hasn't, she has nails. She has a set of nails and they're really long, very long. I was like, well, where does that come from? That can't just like come out of nowhere. So what do we do to make it feel like it's part of the DNA of her and it's just different enough for us to think, well, this isn't just, isn't just like a full set of nails. It's just some. How her DNA does something to the way things grow. So she has nails. And so we, we went through a set of different ideas of what the nails could look like. And then we settled on the idea that it's just an extension of the green. So the first time you see her nails, they're just, they're sort of jade esque. They're like an ombre green that get lighter towards the tip. And when she goes to the Emerald City, it changes because she gets they. We see them get their nails done.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then they become darker on purpose because we're moving in that direction. And that is also something that progresses to four. Yeah. Something to lock away from. But yes. And then John and I had a conversation about how far do we want to take the green? How, how deeply into her DNA do we want it to be? And I was like, what if, what if we changed my eye color so that it feels like there's just one more thing that removes her a little bit. And so we went on a search for the right eye color. There were these green lenses that were really pretty. There were a pair of hazel lenses that were cool. We had some lenses painted. Wow. One with like blue eyes, like, like a blue iris, but like a hazel around it. And the one was with a green. And we tried them all and some of them felt too far away and you couldn't get, you couldn't see through. Yeah, see through to me. And he was like, it kind of cuts the audience off. It cuts us off. And we want to see your emotion. And the Hazel didn't transform enough, so we landed back on the green because for some reason, that green both let us in and held us at a little bit of a distance. So, you know, there's something different about her. But also, you can come in, you.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Almost forget you're green watching the movie.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I kind of wanted that. I kind of wanted. I kind of wanted it to feel like, oh, she's been in this skin her whole life. This is. She sees this every day. This is.

[Sara Bareilles]

This is not novel to her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

What is the de Greening process?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Every day, an hour and a half long.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

You're doing this every day?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Every day. Most of the time, I would be the last person on set because I was still taking everything off.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Oh, my God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't go home with any of it. And if I went home with it, I couldn't take it off myself. So there's, like, a particular, like, oil or balm that takes all the green off. I just. And we would have full skincare, the whole lot, and then I would go back because you would inevitably be left with, like, a sheen of green. So I would. When I would get back home, I would then do another wash to get it all off.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Did you have any skin issues through this process?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, my skin was the best it's ever been in my life.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Insane. I don't know how that happened.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Now that we are green, now that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We'Re green, we then go into costume. And the costume was layers of things.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it's like we've got. Sometimes if we. If we were under. If. If I had, like, man, most of my sleeves were kind of, like, sheer and see through, so you could see my arms. And the problem with that is that if it's underneath and it's rubbing on things, then the makeup comes off. So we created, like, a netted top that went under everything that sort of stopped here, where my makeup would stop if my arms were covered. And so it was the perfect match of green to the rest of me. With Uber. Reserve good things come to those who plan ahead. Family vacay.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Kristin Chenoweth]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Sara Bareilles]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

So you have that. And then if we have tights on, we would have one pair of the green tights that match everything. So there like a body tight, the whole thing. Before my, my. Which I love my fish nets. The pattern fish nets that we. That came on. So we have those. And then I'm corseted all the time.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Real corset?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, a real corset.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Pulled corset before the shirt and before the dress or whichever costume went on. Yeah, yeah, that was the. That was the vibes for the day. And then if we're flying that day. So we had loads of different copies of things we needed. The. The copy of the costumes with pit points. And pit points are basically costumes made with holes where the joints can come through so that when I put my harness on, they can also hook me to the wires.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right?

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yeah. Take us into defying gravity. You're shooting defying Gravity today?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm shooting defying gravity. We have a drip. First of all, because we're moving through so much, my dresses had to be fit often, so we needed a fit me, but we also needed space for my harness. There are, I think, two or three different harnesses for different stunts. The standard flying up and down easy is the. Is the. The most sort of like, easy going harness.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And were you doing all your stunt work?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And these, these harnesses I have. I still have my corset on. I still have my costume on, all of that. And then you put the harness on top of that.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And those need to be pretty snug because you're, It's. You're flying. There's nothing, you know, flying, which I found deeply thrilling. But those days were really interesting because once you're in the harness, you don't want to come out of the harness because it takes forever to get everything prepped again and wires and whatnot. So those days can be really. They can be really big. They can be really exhausting because your body's being put through the strangest things.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And you're holding your bladder while you're flying around.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't Go to the bathroom. Once I'm in my costume. Once I'm in my costume, and this is probably a terrible idea, but once I'm in that costume and the harness is on, I'm not doing it. I'm just not playing. I'm not. I'm not dealing with it. I'm not dealing with it. There's too many layers. I'm not dealing with it. I'm not going to the bathroom. It is what it is.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If it's. Are we in the costume at 7am in the morning? 8am in the morning. Great. We'll be in it for the next 1412 hours. Good luck. Yeah, I'll see you there. I'm not doing it. I'm not. I'm not doing it. So that's what. That's what I would do. I would, like, figure it out. And that's what we're. That's. I'm not. And everyone would be like, do you need the bathroom? No, I don't need the bathroom.

[Sara Bareilles]

Let's go again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't. Let's go.

[Sara Bareilles]

Yeah, let's go.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We're in it. Let's go. Let's go. And that's what would happen. And we. We would do these like. I loved flying, but it was. You would. The only time you would change the harness is when you would need to change into a different. Where you're doing a different stunt. And those days can just be really exhausting. Your body goes through a lot because what happens when you're flying is that if you have to do something, like, there's a. There's a moment where I do, like, loop comes around that is not the wires doing the loop. The wires are taking me from A to B, right. I have to get my body over. So you're figuring out where to place the weight, and sometimes it goes horribly wrong. And the legs flop behind you, and you're just like, I don't know how to do this. And you realize, oh, I have to put tension in my hips and my legs as I bring it round behind me in order to fly in straight. So you just have to learn, like, the aerodynamics of, like, where things go.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

I'm like, who else could have played this part? This could only be you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, he decided that he wanted defying gravity to feel like a combination of all of the, like, iconic superhero moves that you've seen. So there's that one where I whip round across the screen, and that's like Spider Man. And then there's the spinner Spin up, which is like Wonder Woman. And then there's the loop, which is like Superman. Like, all of those things he'd sort of, like, put together. And that was like the. That was the nature of the beast, like, figuring out how to do it, like, all together and figuring out what the dynamics would be. And that was, like, a long shooting process because we started that piece. We started defying gravity, maybe. I want to say we did it in May, April, and didn't finish until January this year because of the writers and actors strike.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Well, it is such a long sequence in the movie. It's very much built out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Which actually, how did. That.

[Sara Bareilles]

Takes the breath out of you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That little girl, she's so sweet, so lovely. And I. I loved. I loved seeing her little face and just, like, the wonder in. In it. I remember when I first met her. I met her when I was in the makeup. She was so sort of. Oh, my gosh, you know, just enamored. And whenever we could have some time together, if I. If I. Paths crossed, which was not a lot, but we got a little time to be in the same space together. I remember we were shooting a scene where I. And she hadn't seen me fly yet, so. So I asked if she wanted to see me fly, and she was like, yeah, I want to see you fly. So they bring her in by the monitor, and it's just like a descent in. So this is one of those. I like the flight, the taking off and the descending, because it was, like, really nice. We found out, like, what the language was and, like, how does she land? And you'll see more of that that's coming.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Did you get hurt at all through any of this?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Only chafing and chafing. Sounds funny until you actually have it. I mean, like, my skin on my hips was burnt.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Oh.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it was, like. It took so long to heal. It just took forever. You get bruised. You get, like. I think, well, maybe I did get hurt, and I just can't remember. Like, I'm sure, like, I definitely had a Bleeding, like, a bloody nose at one point. Like, I don't know what happened. Can't tell you.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Like, broken nails, because even, like, landing on your knees and whatnot, I. I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was fine with the landings and the fall. Like, I was totally fine. Flying was like. That felt wonderful. You. You figure it out. And the only thing was, like. Like, what. What the harness does to you after a long period of time, because you are in it for hours and hours and you are up, right?

[Sara Bareilles]

It's Pulling on your skin.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah. It's. You're. Sometimes it's pulling outwards, so you're. The tension is in a weird space, and you've got to figure out how to hold yourself, but otherwise it's lovely. I really enjoyed what it felt like to fly. And Carys Charis came in one day and they took her by the monitor because she wanted to see me flying. And I. As I'm flying in, I hear this little voice go, whoa. Oh. And I. I kid you not. You know when you have those moments of, oh, that's why I'm doing it.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Yes, it is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was one of those moments of, like. That's why I'm doing it, because that little girl believes I'm flying. She. And she has seen me be taken up in these wires, and it doesn't matter. She believes I am flying. And on top of which, she knows that she's playing the little version of this, which is awesome.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay, so hearing all that goes into playing Elphaba on the film.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

What would you say was the most challenging aspect of it for you, personally?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, it was all. It's all very challenging because it's. Because nothing. What I. I used to say to Ari, none of this nothing is a small day. Everything is a big day. Everything.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

None of what you just said sounds easy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No day was like a small. Okay, we'll just. No day was that every day was like something. If it is it, I'm not that girl. Okay, that's a big day because it's like me on my own, and we're in forest, and it's like.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All of these elements coming together and, you know, is it the wizard of Night? That's not a small day. It's like, what. And just because of the way he saw what this was to be, you'll notice that she starts at the bottom of the school and ends at the very top of a mountain. So he. He makes her ascend, literally, and then sprint, but she never flies. And then. And then. Exactly. And then she's, like, on it. And. But she doesn't go over.

[Sara Bareilles]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She doesn't take the leap right up.

[Sara Bareilles]

To the precipice of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's not a small day. None of it. I think that. I think it was sort of. I think maybe the hardest thing for me was to not look at everything as one big task, but to try to compartmentalize the moments that we were having to make, because they're all. They. They all mean something. They're all big moments. And they all require a lot of us emotionally. I mean, the Anstas was really hard emotionally. But then sitting down and talking about how her father hates her and then looking in the mirror and being told that she's beautiful, like, that was an emotional moment and having to like, how do we, how do we vacillate so we don't tip so far into it that we can't come back, you know, because once we're, when we're in, we're like, where do we, how do we, how do we manage and measure how much she lets herself go and when, you know, because she's sort of like reverberating with like hurt and pain. It's like, it's, it's there. So she doesn't necessarily live in it because it's sort of like literally in her skin. Like it's on her. It's always like at the surface. So it's about how much do we give and how much do we hold? And it was, I think that was one of the things that I had to like, figure out and like, her rhythm. She's not, she's not, she doesn't have the same rhythm as me. She doesn't sound like me, you know, so it's like managing what that is. She's a little drier, takes her time a little bit.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

You know, we've been talking about what we love so much about your take on the role is she's not angry at the world. Like, she accepts that this is how she's viewed and she's like made peace with that. She's not holding it against anyone. That's just, just. It is what it is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And I think that's like a really special twist.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I, but I think that came naturally because I, I, I believed that she's. For someone who's been in this, she's been in the skin forever. It's, it is not a surprise to her when someone is like, oh, that doesn't surprise it. Does it hurt? Yes. Is it surprising? No. It's something she, it's every, this is an everyday for her. So you can't be mad at the world if the world just is what it is, you know, it's something she's experienced her whole life. And I think that she's also experienced, you know, aspects like love, whether it be from Dulcibear or her sister. And she does love her sister and she does love Dulciba. And I think to a degree she loves her father and wants love back. But if I just thought if she's mad at the world the entire time, how would she function? How do you function past that? And also there has to be. You need room. I want to get to rage because she does get to rage. But if we start there, we have nowhere to go. I wanted her to start with a little bit of hope. I want. I want whoever's watching to think, oh, there's hope. It might not go as bad as we. It might not go. It might not go bad. She might connect. There might be connection. And she does connect. Because if she was mad at the world, her and Fiera would not even. It wouldn't happen. They wouldn't cross paths. She wouldn't even give him the time of day. He wouldn't give her the time of day. They wouldn't. They wouldn't connect at all. And somehow they connect. And she can't be mad at the world if she cares deeply about these animals. There has to be love there. She has to have. She has to have an inkling of things can be better. And I can be. I can be a person who can make things better. I can be someone who. If from my experiences, if I know what it's like to be an outsider, maybe I can. Maybe you can change that for someone else. You can't be mad at the world and do this, do that. You can be frustrated, you can be moved by it, but if you're mad at it, if you're angry at it all the time, how can you get past that?

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay, we have to let you go, but there are a couple more things we want to touch on. Talk about having. Oh, my goodness. All right, I think it's time to ask.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Are you a wizard and I. I love this question. Are you a wizard and I defying gravity or no good deed? Alphaba. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. All we ask is that you explain why I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because I knew I'd be asked the question. And I'm gonna. And this isn't a cop out by any means, but it is because of the experience of this. And I'm all of them because the wizard and I is hope. Defying gravity is a proclamation of oneself and exceeding everyone else's expectations and your own. And no good deed is the ownership of your rage and pain. And I can be any one of those on any given day and have.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Been and need to have all of those within you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I need to have all of those within me. I'm not ashamed of hurt and anger and pain. It has taken a long time to get to where I am. And that feels many times like I've had to fly above the expectations of even myself. And the wizard and I is something that is a hope and a bright light that feels like it has to run through everything. You have to believe that anything is possible all the time. And if I didn't believe that anything was possible, if I didn't believe that anything is possible, I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking about this.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

That's beautiful. We had our money on you saying, I'm not that girl.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Here's the thing. I'm not that girl. I love that song so much because it. What I love about it is that it is. She knows that she's so different, and she might not ever be the girl that gets picked, but that's okay. And I love that because it's so true. Many times for me, it's really true. Often you're like, I. And I'm okay with being the one that isn't the one that gets picked all the time.

[Sara Bareilles]

Because when I am picked, look what happens.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm meant to be.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

And what you do with that song in the movie is so singular and inspired. Really floored me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay, we're going to wrap with a quick, rapid fire about. You can answer with your castmates.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Sara Bareilles]

Okay.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

We're gonna take turns. We did this with Ariana, and it was crazy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Chaotic and crazy. Yes.

[Sara Bareilles]

All right. Most likely to be first to set.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ariana.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Most likely to be the last one to leave.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Setthia.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Or Ariana, because she liked to hang around. But it would be me often most.

[Sara Bareilles]

Likely to option up during a song.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Both of us.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Most likely to take a keepsake from set.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ariana.

[Sara Bareilles]

Most likely to stay in character after the camera stops rolling.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think Ariana. But by default, me. I don't realize I'm still there, but.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

I am most likely to break character.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ariana.

[Sara Bareilles]

That's interesting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Or Bowen.

[Sara Bareilles]

Bowen would most likely to get the shot in one take.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Michelle. Yeoh.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Okay. And the last one. Most likely to cry on set.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Both of us.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Ariana did be like, is this a bit? The answer is me for every question.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We cried a lot. She cried immediately. And I would be like, we have things to do. But then it would come. I would resist for a little bit, and then it would all fall to pieces. And then what we supposed to do, you know, that set was we had tissues all over the place. It would be the first AD Crying. John's crying. I'm crying.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

She did say you all were a Little lost in the sauce in that kind of. Everyone was staying in character.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God, it was crazy. Jonathan Bailey. I finished singing I'm not that Girl, and Jonathan Bailey was crying. And I turn around, my first AD is crying. I'm like, we're never going to get through this. We're not going to get through this. You understand? It's hard enough here to do this without falling apart. We're not going to get through this, guys. You understand?

[Kristin Chenoweth]

But how good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We can't do this every day.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

That everyone cared so much about creating this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We really did. I can't even listen. That us doing Defying Gravity. That scene where she says, you're trembling. I have to. Let me get something for you. A mess. The room, everyone. A mess. A mess.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Us two in the theater.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, how are we supposed to. I'm looking at you, you're looking at me. We're supposed to say goodbye. At this point, it's just a mess. Yeah, a mess. Defying gravity. The last moment before I fly up in the air. That was her last. Her last shot in the film.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Oh, God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that was my, like, second to last shot in the film. Good luck, everyone. Godspeed.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Good luck.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Godspeed.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

Cynthia, thank you so much for joining us. My heart is so full after this conversation. This was amazing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Sara Bareilles]

Mine, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you very much. This is wonderful. Thank you. I'm so glad I got to do this with you.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

This is so exciting. You've been listening to Sentimental Men.

[Sara Bareilles]

We'd like to say a big thank you to everyone at the Broadway Podcast Network.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

You can find Sentimental men on Instagram, TikTok and X @sentmenpod, or you can.

[Sara Bareilles]

Email [e-mail] till next time.

[Kristin Chenoweth]

I'm Quincy.

[Sara Bareilles]

And I'm Kevin. I don't know about you, but I personally feel like the world could use a lot more kindness right now. Hi, it's Robert Peter Paul, your friendly neighborhood vpn, host of the Art of Kindness, a podcast that spotlights people in the arts who make the world. Well, you guessed it, kinder. From icons like Carol Burnett.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Whoop.

[Sara Bareilles]

I blacked out. To Tony winners like Stephanie J. Block. To Olympians like Lori Hernandez. We've featured so many wonderful guests from all corners of the biz to give you intimate conversations and kindness tips. I'm thrilled to say we're returning for a fourth season. Woop woop. This World Kindness Week, with guests like Ian Armitage, Judith Light, Betty Hu, Corbin Blue and more. So please join our kindness community over at VPN fma and I do hope you're doing as aok as you can. Let's build a kinder world. All audio hug.