67. Elsa and Norma and Karen, Oh My! (with Caroline Bowman)

Summary

Sentimental Men - Episode 67: "Elsa and Norma and Karen, Oh My!" (with Caroline Bowman)
Release Date: February 4, 2025
Host: Quincy Brown and Kevin Bianchi
Guest: Caroline Bowman

---

Introduction

In Episode 67 of Sentimental Men, hosts Quincy Brown and Kevin Bianchi invite Broadway star Caroline Bowman to discuss her recent achievements and experiences in musical theater. The episode delves into Caroline's journey from touring with Frozen as Elsa to originating the role of Karen in the Broadway revival of Smash. The conversation also touches upon the latest updates from the Wicked universe and the anticipated Oscar nominations for The Wicked Movie.

---

Recent Broadway Casting Announcements

[03:29] Quincy Brown
"As always, lots of lot of updates in the Wicked verse since our last episode. First and foremost is the new Broadway casting announcement."

Quincy and Kevin express excitement over the new casting announcements for Wicked on Broadway. They highlight the groundbreaking news of the first full-time Black Elphaba, Lencia Cabetta, praising her vocal prowess and anticipating a fresh interpretation of the beloved role.

[04:07] Kevin Bianchi
"Wicked is announcing the first full-time Black Elphaba on Broadway, and it's Lencia Cabetta whose voice is insane."

The hosts also discuss upcoming developments for the original Broadway cast of 13 the Musical, with optimistic remarks about the future of the cast members, including Ariana and Ali Trim.

---

Oscar Nominations for The Wicked Movie

[06:33] Quincy Brown
"Next up in our Rolodex of Wicked updates is the Oscar nominations for The Wicked movie."

Wicked has garnered an impressive 10 Oscar nominations, spanning categories such as Best Picture, Best Actress for Cynthia Erivo, Best Supporting Actress for Ariana Grande, and various technical awards.

[08:01] Quincy Brown
"It's not surprising to me that it has such a heavy showing in, like, the design categories because it was such a force in that regard."

While Quincy expresses disappointment over the lack of a Best Director nomination for Jon M. Chu, both hosts remain optimistic about the prospects of Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande winning in their respective acting categories.

[09:14] Kevin Bianchi
"Emilia Perez was so good. And I do not understand all of the hate it is getting online."
[09:52] Quincy Brown
"That's my 2 cents on Emilia."

The conversation shifts to address online criticism of the movie, with Kevin defending Emilia Perez's performance and emphasizing the beauty of musical theater in conveying deep emotions.

---

Interview with Caroline Bowman

[15:40] Kevin Bianchi
"We have Caroline Bowman back with us after five years."

Caroline Bowman shares her impressive Broadway resume, highlighting her roles in Wicked, Kinky Boots, the Evita Tour, and most recently, her role as Karen in the revival of Smash. She recounts her experience performing as Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard, describing the evening as "the most electric afternoon in a theater" she has ever experienced.

Notable Quote:
[11:21] Kevin Bianchi
"This episode is brought to you by Shopify... I miss Kinky Boots."

[17:19] Caroline Bowman
"Josh Burgasse, our amazing choreographer, came up to me and was like, do you want to run through some dances? Because he is nurturing me through coming back to Caroline Bowman dance skills."

Caroline discusses the challenges and triumphs of balancing her touring commitments with securing a principal role on Broadway. She elaborates on the serendipitous nature of auditioning for Smash, detailing the obstacles she overcame, including a difficult Zoom audition during her Frozen tour.

[26:21] Kevin Bianchi
"You went to Caroline's performance as Norma. Tell me everything."
[37:14] Quincy Brown
"That's insane."

Caroline reflects on the support she received from fellow artists and the Broadway community, emphasizing the importance of perseverance and trusting the universe's plan for her career.

[43:48] Caroline Bowman
"I do have so many ideas, and I want to create and be here to create, but I'm not here to create."
[44:00] Kevin Bianchi
"You seem like a workhorse."

She candidly shares the emotional and mental challenges of being an understudy and standby, discussing the pressure of potentially stepping into a role with high expectations and her strategies for managing nerves and self-doubt.

---

Caroline's Journey and Future Projects

[46:28] Kevin Bianchi
"You never stood by for Elphaba, Right?"
[57:08] Kevin Bianchi
"Is Norma of your big four, Elsa Elphaba, Evita Nulla."

Caroline speaks about her evolution as a performer, tracing how her role as Elsa in Frozen affirmed her calling and helped her grow into more demanding roles like Norma in Sunset Boulevard. She shares her aspirations to produce an album and develop a solo show, leveraging the momentum from her recent successes.

Notable Quote:
[60:12] Caroline Bowman
"I came back and I was on a roll."

---

Viewing The Wicked Movie

[63:35] Kevin Bianchi
"You went to the Friends and Family premiere. Was that the first time you had seen it?"
[68:37] Caroline Bowman
"They needed me to hold down the fort. Cuz they had like 20 Glindas and like four Elphabas."

Caroline recounts her humorous and unexpected experience attending the Wicked movie premiere, highlighting her interactions with fellow performers like Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande. She praises the film's portrayal of Defying Gravity and the thoughtful character development.

[69:07] Caroline Bowman
"I thought it was so well done because that's what I've been saying for years is I'm like, how are they going to do Defying Gravity?"
[70:28] Caroline Bowman
"Ariana is amazing. I think she's an amazing Glinda."

Despite the initial confusion, Caroline appreciates the movie's artistry and the performances of the lead actresses, reaffirming her support for the Wicked community.

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks to Caroline Bowman for sharing her inspiring journey and insights into the world of musical theater. Quincy and Kevin encourage listeners to support Caroline's upcoming performances and her role in Smash. They also extend gratitude to the Broadway Podcast Network team and promote their social media channels for further engagement.

[75:13] Kevin Bianchi
"You can find Sentimental Men on Instagram, TikTok and xentmenpod, or you can email [e-mail] till next time."

---

Key Takeaways

• Caroline Bowman's Broadway Success: From touring as Elsa in Frozen to originating Karen in Smash, Caroline Bowman exemplifies dedication and versatility in musical theater.

• Breaking Barriers in Wicked: The casting of Lencia Cabetta as the first full-time Black Elphaba marks a significant moment for diversity and representation on Broadway.

• Anticipated Wicked Movie: With 10 Oscar nominations, the film adaptation of Wicked is set to make a notable impact, despite some controversies and discussions surrounding its direction.

• Perseverance in the Arts: Caroline's story underscores the importance of resilience, community support, and unwavering passion in navigating the challenges of a Broadway career.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Caroline Bowman at [11:21]:
  "This is my third time seeing this production. It was just really, really a special night that I will remember always."

• Quincy Brown at [03:02]:
  "I still don't think so. Or the Internet disagreed with you and Marcia, by the way."

• Caroline Bowman at [26:21]:
  "I drove out there with my two dance captains from my tour because they were like, let's let us come, and we'll perfect you."

---

Sentimental Men continues to celebrate and explore the contributions of remarkable women in musical theater, offering listeners intimate conversations and behind-the-scenes glimpses into the Broadway world.

Transcript

[Caroline Bowman]

Hi, y'all. This is Kristin Chenoweth. Hi, I'm Gloria Stefan. This is Sara Bareilles. Hi, I'm Patti LuPone. This is Lin Manuel Miranda.

[Quincy]

You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network.

[Alan]

Hey there, you passionate podcast listener. This is Alan from Broadway Podcast Network. Dropping in real fast to make sure you know that the network has a full day of live podcast panels already scheduled for Saturday, February 8th, as part of this year's BroadwayCon. It's also the 10th anniversary of BroadwayCon itself. So in addition to BPN's events, there are some additional amazing events events planned. All you need is a one ticket which gets you into all three days of BroadwayCon here in New York City. And if you haven't purchased a ticket already, head over to broadwaycon.com and use code BPN for 15% off your ticket. That's broadwaycon.com using code BPN for 15% off. And you can even visit BPN FM broadwaycon to see our confirmed schedule of events. A hope to see you there.

[Caroline Bowman]

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. The blessing of Sunset being what it was. Me essentially being Norma Desmond of the basement of the St. James.

[Kevin]

That's the musical I want to see.

[Caroline Bowman]

Norma Desmond of the Basement of the basement in the St. James.

[Kevin]

That's like an Off Broadway parody.

[Quincy]

Yeah. MTC.

[Caroline Bowman]

Totally. Totally.

[Kevin]

I'm Quincy.

[Quincy]

And I'm Kevin.

[Kevin]

And this is Sentimental Men.

[Quincy]

We're here to talk and maybe scream about our favorite women in musical theater.

[Kevin]

Perfect situations must go wrong.

[Quincy]

It's never a good sign when you bring us in with chess.

[Kevin]

I have to say, okay, I grew up. The only Chess recording and visual I have been exposed to is the Idina Menzel, Adam Pascal, Josh Groban, Carrie Ellis recording, which is beautiful and wonderful. My boyfriend just introduced me to the original Broadway cast recording.

[Quincy]

I not just introduced you.

[Kevin]

Which is not available to stream. That's why I blame. That's what I put it on. It is so sensational. The like orchestrations of it all.

[Quincy]

It's exquisite.

[Kevin]

Oh, I'm like, this is fantastic.

[Quincy]

Yeah, I love all the iterations of that. That is one of my all time favorite Idina Menzel vocal recordings. Her nobody side.

[Kevin]

Stranger's advice.

[Quincy]

Yeah. Oh, my God. It's that good, Adena.

[Caroline Bowman]

Stranger's advice?

[Quincy]

Yeah. Oh, it's so good.

[Kevin]

Another thing on my boyfriend, I was singing, and he goes, you love to hit your S's with your little lisp. And I was like, you know why? And I mean this genuinely. It's because Idina Menzel taught me how to sing when I was younger.

[Quincy]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. You and an entire generation of U. Michigan graduates go listen to the original.

[Kevin]

Broadway cast recording of Jess. It's on YouTube. It's really sensational. One night in Bangkok.

[Quincy]

Oh, God, I love that show.

[Kevin]

Hi. Long time no talk.

[Quincy]

Long time no talk. As always, lots of lots of updates in the Wicked verse since our last episode. First and foremost is the new Broadway casting announcement.

[Kevin]

So exciting.

[Quincy]

So exciting.

[Kevin]

It reminded me of when I was in high school and I saw on my iPad that Willemein Verkayk was taking over on Broadway. And I immediately had tears flood to my face seeing. Cause I also wasn't expecting a casting announcement to drop. I guess I just hadn't been, like, plugged in in that way.

[Quincy]

Yeah, I wasn't ready for it in any way.

[Kevin]

And then to open Instagram and to see not only is Wicked announcing a new Broadway cast, but Wicked is announcing the first full time black Elphaba on Broadway. And not only are they announcing the first full time black Elphaba on Broadway, but it's Lencia Cabetta whose voice is insane.

[Quincy]

I'm so excited. Like, we have a capital S singer moving in.

[Kevin]

Everyone go watch the Angelica Skyler boots.

[Quincy]

They're nast.

[Kevin]

Because it makes me very excited. I just feel like we're gonna hear the score in a way that we have not heard it sung.

[Quincy]

Yeah. I'm so, so excited and, yeah, super excited that it's her.

[Kevin]

Yeah. I'm just like to hear a new rendition in year 23 of Wicked on Broadway is gonna be so exciting.

[Quincy]

It's gonna be very exciting. Also very excited for Ali Trim. If you are in line for the 13 to Wicked pipeline, please stay in line. You are entitled to a role in the music.

[Kevin]

Good things coming for the original Broadway cast of 13 the musical this year.

[Quincy]

Okay. Yeah. I feel good things coming for the cast of 13 the musical as well.

[Kevin]

Ariana's having a moment. Ali Trim's having a moment. Who's next?

[Quincy]

It could be anybody.

[Kevin]

Yeah, we gotta go to the first performance. I'm like, do we want to go to their first performance or do we want to go to like the seventh performance. So they've lived in it a little bit. Especially since Lencia is coming in new.

[Quincy]

I know. Which also like a slay because it's been a minute since we've had a fresh to like a straight to Broadway Elphaba.

[Kevin]

It's been so Lindsay, Heather Pierce, the last.

[Quincy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin]

Wow.

[Quincy]

Yeah, I know. Because it's like, I want to go once they've like, sat in it for a minute. But I do want to be there for like, the herstory of the first night.

[Kevin]

Maybe we do a double header and do MK and Alex Oscha's last into Lancia and Ali's first.

[Quincy]

Don't tempt me with a good time.

[Kevin]

I have been wanting to see Wicked on stage again lately.

[Quincy]

I know. Just to ground myself back in the. In the source material.

[Kevin]

Remember our roots.

[Quincy]

Yeah. Just to check myself.

[Kevin]

Yeah. Really exciting time. Congratulations. Wicked on Broadway. Fantastic job casting. I can't wait to see what these ladies have up their sleeve.

[Quincy]

Next up in our Rolodex of Wicked updates is the Oscar nominations for The Wicked movie.

[Kevin]

10 nominations.

[Quincy]

10 nominations. You want me to read them off?

[Kevin]

Read them out.

[Quincy]

All right. Best picture, best actress for Cynthia Erivo. Best supporting actress for Ariana Grande. Production design, sound, visual effects, costume design, editing, and hair and makeup.

[Kevin]

Now, do we think they're going to perform at the Oscars?

[Quincy]

I still don't think so.

[Kevin]

Or. Or the Internet disagreed with you and Marcia, by the way.

[Quincy]

Maybe the two of them sing the In Memoriam song. That feels more likely to me. Like, that they sing. What if they launch for good as the In Memoriam song in the Oscars?

[Kevin]

Don't let that be the way it happens.

[Quincy]

I don't know. I just. I would love it if they did. I just am having a hard time justifying it.

[Kevin]

In my world, the Oscars open with Elphaba. Why couldn't you have stayed cop for once? Cynthia's in a cherry picker.

[Quincy]

In a cherry picker. Mary Poppins flying over the audience. I can't wait to see how Wicked does at the Oscars. It's not surprising to me that it has such a heavy showing in, like, the design categories because it was such a force in that regard. Like, it was like the world building was just like such the focus of this movie. I will say, though, that my personal villain origin story will be Jon M. Chu. Not getting nominated for best director justice.

[Kevin]

For Jon M. Chu. It's also just, how do you rack up? So how do you give them so many nominations and then not nominate the director of the film that you.

[Quincy]

The captain of the sh. Right. Yeah, I agree. It feels like a lot of these nominations go hand in hand with a best director nomination.

[Kevin]

Maybe. Maybe next year.

[Quincy]

That's the other thing I keep telling myself is we have a do over for all of this.

[Kevin]

I'm happy Cynthia and Ariana both got nominated. Very Tony's 2004 vibes. I hope they both win.

[Quincy]

I hope they both win too.

[Kevin]

Can I say something non wicked related.

[Quincy]

On this microphone with your whole chest? Go for it.

[Kevin]

Emilia Perez was so good. And I do not understand all of the hate it is getting online. And I think it's getting all this hate because people are watching clips out of context and not actually watching the freaking movie. But I truly have you watched it.

[Caroline Bowman]

Mm.

[Quincy]

Mm.

[Kevin]

I literally had a moment where I was like, wow. This is why musical theater as an art form is so beautiful, because it allows you to, like, show these emotions that you wouldn't be able to show in real life. And they're taking you inside of this mundane thing, but showing you the inner workings. It was like a really beautifully well done movie. And I think everyone needs to back off a little bit.

[Quincy]

Okay, you heard it here first. That's my 2 cents on Emelia Quincy. We are going to be joined by our guest in a matter of minutes, Ms. Caroline Bowman. We are talking to Caroline Bowman again today.

[Kevin]

OG listeners will recall.

[Quincy]

They will recall. I'm going to run through her resume super quick and then I want you to tell me how she was in Sunset Boulevard. Okay. Ms. Caroline Bowman in 2011 Broadway debut in Wicked in the ensemble understudying Elphaba. 2013 Kinky Boots original Broadway cast ensemble understudied Nicola. 2013 the Evita Tour as Eva Perron. 2014 Wicked Broadway as Principal Elphaba. 2018 Back in Kinky Boots as Nicola.

[Kevin]

2019 Goodbye to Sunny Days where upwardness mobile now hello to sunny days Till it's impossible to find a trace of what we left behind and the defining element is in these shoes. I miss Kinky Boots.

[Quincy]

I see that.

[Kevin]

Carry on.

[Quincy]

2018, she was in Kinky Boots again. And then in 2019, she went on the Frozen tour. Opened the Frozen tour as Elsa. Quite iconic. Did the tour for five years, which is insane to me, and then left the tour in 2024 to be in the OBC or the original revival cast of Sunset Boulevard on Broadway standing by for Nicole Scherzinger as Norma Desmond. And now this year, 2025, back on Broadway after a short, short hiatus In Smash the Musical as Karen Cartwright.

[Caroline Bowman]

Woo.

[Quincy]

Quincy, you went to Caroline's performance as Norma. Tell me everything. Tell all of us everything.

[Kevin]

I have been saying it is the most electric afternoon in a theater that I have experienced since the Wicked reopening. It truly was first of all, the energy because it was a one day only thing and because there was like a lot of pre advanced notice. The theater was filled with her people. So like the energy was just like very buzzy from the get go. Before the show started, her husband started. Caroline, Caroline, Caroline. It was like every day was there. It was so exciting and she was so, so, so sensational. This is my third time seeing this production. This is my favorite time seeing this production. The fact that she had never gone on before is so astounding. She was so dropped in. The vocal was pristine and exciting and interesting. She looked gorgeous. You get so many close ups. Have you seen this production yet? You get so many close ups of like her face throughout the show because they do a lot of like movie stuff and. And there was like that moment where in the show there's like a close up of her face projected on the screen and then Sunset Boulevard goes across her face as like an opening title sequence. I started to tear up. It was just really, really a special night that I will remember always. I'm sure you all have heard the audios already. Sensational. She's a star. She's incredible. I have. It's funny because I went back and listened to the episode we did with her back in 2020 and I was like such a fangirl of her then. And that has only deepened as her career has gone on. Like her resume is like a Quincy Brown jukebox. It is fantasy.

[Quincy]

Yes, it is very. You love all of these things very.

[Kevin]

Deeply, I should say. I am also working on Smash and the producers lovingly and jokingly were like, quincy, stop talking about Caroline. Because every meeting I'm like, well, Caroline should do this. Oh, we should probably get Caroline in this though, right? It's just sensational. I'm so excited to have her back on as she is in the heat of this, like really big moment in her career.

[Quincy]

It feels like it's like such a slow. When you think about the fact that when Smash opens, like she'll be in her third major production in a singular calendar year is insane.

[Kevin]

Her first time originating a principal on Broadway.

[Quincy]

She stays busy.

[Kevin]

She is the definition of booked and busy.

[Quincy]

I mean, there's no gaps because it.

[Kevin]

Would have been fine enough for her to leave the Frozen Tour. Take a little bit of downtime, come back with Smash. But no, she filled it with Sunset.

[Quincy]

No, no, no, no.

[Kevin]

She said, I have a really good feeling about Smash. I'm excited about it.

[Quincy]

Me too. I'm very excited.

[Kevin]

The music is just so good.

[Quincy]

You don't have to sell all the show to me. I'm showing up.

[Caroline Bowman]

Hi.

[Kevin]

And here she is.

[Caroline Bowman]

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[Alan]

Hey there, you passionate podcast listener. This is Alan from Broadway Podcast Network, dropping in real fast to make sure you know that the network has a full day of live podcast panels already scheduled for Saturday, February 8th as part of this year's BroadwayCon. It's also the 10th anniversary of BroadwayCon itself. So in addition to BPN's events, there are some additional amazing events planned. All you need is a one ticket which gets you into all three, three days of BroadwayCon here in New York City. And if you haven't purchased a ticket already, head over to broadwaycon.com and use code BPN for 15% off your ticket. That's broadwaycon.com using code BPN for 15% off. And you can even visit BPN FM broadwaycon to see our confirmed schedule of events. Hope to see you there.

[Kevin]

We have Caroline Bowman back with us after five years.

[Quincy]

That's insane.

[Caroline Bowman]

It does not feel like five years.

[Quincy]

No.

[Caroline Bowman]

But a lot of life has been lived.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Quincy]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

You are second ever guest.

[Caroline Bowman]

I was. That's crazy. That was fun. I saw. I was. I no longer live with my parents.

[Kevin]

Amazing.

[Caroline Bowman]

I'm back in New York City. My dog is here. You'll probably hear him lapping up water throughout this interview. Yeah.

[Kevin]

Because when we talked, Thick of the pandemic was done. You were back. You were on the Frozen tour or you were.

[Quincy]

No, no, it was like. It was like August or September 2020.

[Caroline Bowman]

Pull out. Yeah, it was like beginning. Still the beginning.

[Kevin]

Oh. So we were like doldrums of the.

[Caroline Bowman]

We were just getting started.

[Kevin]

Gotcha.

[Caroline Bowman]

Full out. Like I Was like I was doing zoom lessons and concerts from my parents basement and then walking upstairs crying a single tear and then having a glass of wine with my dad. That was where we were. So you guys, like, brought so much joy to my life doing this interview. It was like.

[Kevin]

It was back at you.

[Caroline Bowman]

It was so fun.

[Kevin]

Okay, you are joining us after your Smash rehearsal.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yes, I am.

[Kevin]

You just wrapped your first week of rehearsals in Smash.

[Caroline Bowman]

No, I've got one more day.

[Kevin]

Oh, you rehearse tomorrow?

[Quincy]

Oh, you have rehearsal tomorrow?

[Caroline Bowman]

I rehearse tomorrow.

[Kevin]

Okay. Okay.

[Quincy]

So you're on the penultimate rehearsal of your first week of Smash.

[Kevin]

Tell us about it.

[Caroline Bowman]

Well, my brain, I got to the end of the day and Josh Burgasse, our choreographer, our amazing choreographer, came up to me and was like, do you want to. Do you want to run through some dances? Because he is. He is nurturing me through coming back to Caroline Bowman dance skills. Because I did. He is. He and the rest of the team are fantastic. But he in particular, I wrote him an email, like, when I booked the show and was like, I'm. I haven't done a dance show in 10 years. Last Dance show I did was Evita. And we know and. Well, we know it well. But I. I was like, I'm just gonna need, like, I can do it and I'm excited to do it, but I just need a little bit extra time, and he is certainly giving me that. So I ended the day and he came up. He goes, do you want to learn some? You want to get a head start on something new? And I go, I don't know if my brain can handle anymore at the end of the day. So we reviewed and yeah, it's going well. It's going well. We're just.

[Kevin]

You guys did a run through today?

[Caroline Bowman]

No, we did a read sing through.

[Kevin]

Was that the first one of the week?

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, it was the first one of the week and we started putting stuff on its feet. So we're. We're. We're going. But things are changing every day. Yeah, it's wild. Original cast.

[Kevin]

Yeah. What can you tell us about this.

[Caroline Bowman]

Broadway adaptation of Smash from our social media manager? What have I. What can I tell you? I can tell you that it is going to be different from the series, but the tone of the show is similar to the series, especially if you're a die hard Smash fan. It honors New York City and Broadway in the same way that the series did, which is really special. And so it kind of is a love letter to Broadway in a way. And what it's like to live in New York and pursue this crazy dream and put up a Broadway show. But then obviously, just like the series, there's drama and like, things go wrong and crazy stuff goes down. And we. So we are those characters that you know and love. Like, we start, the show starts very neutral, very like, everybody's friends, everybody's good. We're all just like putting on a show and then all. And then things unravel as the show goes on. And that's why. And that's why it's interesting. And it's fun. It's fun. So that's my little pitch.

[Kevin]

And it's funny.

[Caroline Bowman]

So funny.

[Kevin]

I feel like the shenanigans on the TV show, they took it in like a melodrama direction and in the stage show, they're taking it comedy.

[Caroline Bowman]

Sure. They made it kind of soap opera.

[Quincy]

Y. Yeah, yeah, that's a good word for it.

[Caroline Bowman]

They made. Yeah, they. I feel like Smash, the series was sort of soap opera Y and it took like, it took itself really seriously. But we were watching it going, haha, this is kind of like, yeah, yeah, silly. And they knew, they knew it too. But they, they like leaned into the seriousness of it. We lean into the comedy. Like we're, we're kind of doing what the show didn't do. Like, we're, we know that we're putting on a comedy.

[Quincy]

There's like a tongue in cheekness to it.

[Caroline Bowman]

Totally. It's like, like there's even like an edge of camp to it.

[Quincy]

As there should be. As there damn well should be.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, I think it's like. And it has to be, I think, because. Yeah, it has to be because it is a kind of a commentary on what the show did in a way. So, yeah, I think it's really funny. And we've got like some of the best comedians. We've got Brooks Ashmash. I can never say his last name. I'm gonna need him to. To say it phonetically for me. He is so funny. So funny. Christine Nielsen is so funny. And then like Robin Herder is just like a quadruple million threat. Like, she is so funny and such, like so good at all the things. I mean, it's a really stellar cast. I don't, I can't. I can't believe they asked me to be a part of it.

[Quincy]

Yeah. I'm so excited to see you in it. I'm so excited. How did it come across? Like, how did it come to you?

[Caroline Bowman]

That's kind of a wild story.

[Kevin]

We're gonna get into all the last five years, Caroline.

[Caroline Bowman]

The last five years. Jamie is over. And Jamie is done. Jamie's decided it's time to move on. Still haven't done that role. You're welcome.

[Kevin]

Maybe you can. It's coming.

[Caroline Bowman]

Maybe I can. Maybe in the next five years. In the next five years. I'll do the last five years.

[Quincy]

Great. And we'll have you back on.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Every five years is the most.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't Come on. I'm coming on in another five years.

[Quincy]

Yeah, perfect.

[Caroline Bowman]

I can't come on before that. Anyway. How did I. How did this come about? So I auditioned for it. When. I auditioned for it back when it was a workshop, when they were workshopping it, like in the fall of whatever year that was 2023 or something. Yeah, I. I sent in a self tape and then got called in, went. Came into the city. I flew in for it, and it went. Went well. But I didn't get it. I didn't. It didn't go my way. So, yeah, I went in and whatever iteration that was and finished my audition. Susan Stroman was like, that was a great audition, Caroline. And I was like, thank you, Susan Stroman. And I left the room and didn't hear anything, and I let it go. I went back to Frozen. I went back to Frozen, and. And then I have had kind of forgotten about it. People were auditioning for it. I was helping people with their auditions. Like, I was not. I was like, this is not my way. I had already booked Sunset Boulevard. I booked Sunset Boulevard in April of 2024.

[Kevin]

So you're like, I'm good.

[Caroline Bowman]

Well, I was kind of. I. Not that I was good, because I wasn't. We. I wasn't in my heart of heart. Sure. I was ready to stand by. I think I was. I was like, kind of like, I'm. But. But I wanted to come back to New York. And I was like, if this is the thing that's bringing me back to New York, what a cool show. I'll do that, and I'll end. I. I'll have a little bit of a break because I have been working my ass off being Elsa for the last five years. So I was like, okay. That would be the amount.

[Kevin]

I have to tell you, the amount of times over the last five years that I've been. Is Caroline still on tour right now?

[Caroline Bowman]

I was. I was on tour for a long time. But the thing is, I loved it, and nothing was bringing me back here yet, so I was like, why would I leave a fantastic. I know how hard it is to get a job. I'm like. And I'm also on the Frozen tour.

[Kevin]

Like, I am a Disney job.

[Caroline Bowman]

A Disney job. But also, like, it fulfilled me. And my husband and I were good. Like, Austin and I were good. Chilling. Like, it was hard to be long distance, but we got it. Like, I was like. And the pandemic really, like, shook all of us and shook me. And I was like. And it to the point where I was like, I want to work for as long as I can. And that job was fulfilling me in all the ways I needed it to, besides being back in the city. Like, I really wanted to be back here and back on Broadway, but I'm like, I'll wait for. I'll wait for the right thing to come along. So, yeah. And that luckily worked out. So, yeah, I had. I booked Sunset, and that was in April, and I was kind of like, okay, great, if that's what's supposed to be. But then I had a couple other auditions that were, like, kind of with that. That also came close. So I was like. I was kind of like, oh, well, at least this is like, the universe is telling me it's time for me to go home. So that was really nice. So, yeah, the cut to the summer, and they were still looking for a Karen. And I got a call from my manager. I was in Vancouver and I. Vancouver was my second to last city on tour, so I was like, nearing the end.

[Kevin]

Oh, so you weren't planning on closing the tour?

[Caroline Bowman]

No, because I. I wanted to have. No, I asked for three. I wanted to leave three weeks early so that I could have three weeks off.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, I was. Yeah, originally I was gonna close the tour, but then when I booked Sunset, I was like, I need a break.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Caroline Bowman]

I can't just go. I can't just dive right in. Because the tour closed on, I think. No, wait. We started rehearsals for sunset on August 19th, and the tour closed on the 2nd of September.

[Kevin]

Gotcha.

[Caroline Bowman]

So I just left a month early. But anyway, so I. I got a call from my manager when I was in Vancouver, like, the first day I landed in Vancouver, and she was like, so your name keeps coming up in the room. Can you get to New York to go in for finals for Smash? And I was like, you're kidding me. What? And they had. I guess they had asked me. I think they had asked me a week before that if I would come in. And I said. I said, I cannot miss shows and my reps Were like, they won't accept a tape. And I was like, I can't miss. I can't miss the end of Frozen. I've really been loyal to this company, and I don't want. I just don't want to end it that way.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

And I was like, this is. I know this. I can't. I can't do that to a show that's given me so much for a maybe, like, for something that's not a definite. I don't. I can't fly. Like, I just can't. And I was like. It was really, like, hard. It was like, okay. And then. Then after that is when my manager called me like, a week later and was like, your name keeps coming up. They really want to see you. How can we make this work? And I go, okay, okay. Can they see me on a Monday? I'm in Vancouver, right? Big diagonal line, opposite side of the country west. Not even. Not in. Not even in the country.

[Quincy]

There's customs involved.

[Caroline Bowman]

The west side, the West Coast. So I literally was like, okay, okay. How can I make this work? Can they see me on a Monday between cities? My next city, Spokane, Washington. So, like, I have to go to New York and then back. And she was like, I think they can make that work. So I went ahead and I splurged, and I bought myself a red eye from Vancouver to New York City on that Monday. I wasn't like, I was just gonna, like, pray that I woke up with a voice. And I. And that was the plan. And so I just started. I just got to work. I had my. I had my. My flight booked, and that was two weeks away from when I got that phone call. And I, like, got the material, started working on it. Then my manager called me, like, a couple of days later, and she. She was like, okay, they're going to. They're going to do a Zoom final callback for you. They're going to let you do a Zoom final callback. And I was like, what?

[Quincy]

After you bought the flight?

[Caroline Bowman]

After I bought the flight, did you.

[Kevin]

Buy the trip insurance?

[Caroline Bowman]

I did not. I did not. So I have this credit in my United app that I'm like, I need to use it before July 2025, but I might give them a call and see if I can use it anyway. So I. She called me a couple of days later, and she was like, they're going to let you do a Zoom. Can you get. Have a good setup? And again, universe, I happen to be at a theater with a rehearsal space and fantastic wi Fi. Which never happens on tour. Like, theaters don't have spare space. So I happen to have both those things. And I was like, actually, I might be able to make this work. And so after that, I canceled my United flight. I was like, make sure this is for sure before I cancel this because I spent a lot of money on this. And then I started rehearsing over Zoom with my computer in the space with my lighting and my accompanist, like every single day to make sure I was doing dress rehearsals with Austin. He was testing my. My signal, like to make sure he goes, you sound great. Your microphone is great. Your everything is like. It was like I had to do like.

[Kevin]

Yeah. Is that normal to do a live Zoom audition?

[Caroline Bowman]

I've never done it, but I think people do. I think people do. Thankfully, because of the pandemic.

[Quincy]

I would just like to give you the flowers too of just like in order to do this audition, you also had to be like a lighting designer and a sound designer and like a one woman production company.

[Caroline Bowman]

It was more work than I would have had to do to fly in.

[Quincy]

Right? Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

But I was like, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it well. And I'm not going to miss an Elsa show. I'm not going to miss. I'm not going to miss any shows. So not only was I like rehearsing this, my. My dog's itchy. Where is he? Where is he? Hi, buddy.

[Quincy]

I love you.

[Kevin]

He's so big. Hi, honey.

[Caroline Bowman]

I know. I have a huge dog in New York City. Hi, baby. So not only was I doing that and like making sure I was like, set, I rehearsed every day. I pr. I was like practicing the sides. I made sure I had a cast member help me be my reader. And I. So I worked. I. I prepped like it was a show. Like I was just gonna do the best I could. And I did this Zoom callback. I. And I also had my phone set up so I could film the whole thing in case the signal went out.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

And I just had so that I would have like the tape to send them. And apparently they had a whole space set up with my face projected onto something. And because casting telsey, they told me afterwards, they were like, oh yeah. We were like. We were so worried it wasn't gonna work. And so I did it everything. Like they. I was like, I was do. Did all my like, scenes and my songs and they were like coming back on in between. Like they would unmute themselves and I Would hear applause, and it was so strange.

[Kevin]

Who was watching the audition?

[Caroline Bowman]

Everybody. Susan was the only. Susan Stroman was the only person I could see on the screen.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Caroline Bowman]

Because she would come on and talk to me and give me. And then producers, our music team. Yeah. I think everybody was in there. I'm not sure. She showed me at the. Afterwards. She showed me everybody afterwards. And then my dog is still drinking water. So thirsty. And so that happened. I finished. I was like, what do I even feel right now? I got a text from Stephen Ramis, who is. I'm friends with after all these years. He's been my music director for so many shows, including the Wicked.

[Kevin]

How do you talk to him on the side about this audition at all?

[Caroline Bowman]

No, because I try to keep. I keep that. I keep it professional. Like, I don't. I don't want to, like, blur the lines when he's like, when he's my friend versus when he's my boss.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

And so I. I hadn't. And then he texted me right after and was like, you killed it. And I was like. And I'm like. And I wanted to re. Right back. Be like, what does that mean? What does that mean? Yeah, what do you mean I killed it? What do you mean? I'm like, okay, okay. So then my manager said, okay, they're going to want to. They want to see you dance. And so. So they were like, over the weekend, they're going to film something, and they're going to send you something on Monday. Because this is on a Friday. On Monday, they sent me a break. Hi, baby. They sent me a breakdown of a dance that I needed to learn, and that was my travel day. So I'm in the airport, I get this, like, Dropbox of a dance. I need to learn Josh Burgos choreography, which is, like, not the simplest stuff. I'm in the airport, like, staring at it, like, trying to, like, ingest it. I get. I. I get to my final city on tour, Spokane, Washington. I check into. Oh, my gosh. No, you can't squeak that right now, baby. He's doing this on purpose. Hey, hey. Go lay down. Go lay down.

[Kevin]

Go.

[Caroline Bowman]

He did. They. He sends me this choreography. I'm in the airport trying to. Trying to do research, and I land in Spokane, go to a crappy tour hotel that they put us up in. And I said, I'm not staying here. I checked out immediately because my. It was like. It was like 95 degrees. It was my last city on tour, and my. My air conditioning wasn't on. In the room when I got in, and I go, I don't have time for this. Yeah. Oh, no. I think I might have checked in. I think I might have checked in and gone straight to their tiny, tiny gym and started, like, trying to do the choreography. Like, strangers were in there, like, flight attendants from, like, whatever. Like, they put. Whoever they put up there were. And I was just, like, trying to learn, like, choreography in the mirror, like, doing it in a tiny space. And I was like, this just won't do. And so I checked out of that hotel and went across the street to the nicer hotel because it was my last city tour. And I was like, nah. And they, like, had a big gym. I could. I could do work on the choreography. And I emailed a couple Dan. Local dance studios in Spokane, Washington, Told them the whole story. I said, hey, I'm a Broadway actor. I'm also on the frozen tour. I. I'm trying to book a Broadway show, and I need a dance space.

[Kevin]

And putting in work.

[Caroline Bowman]

Oh. Oh. So I worked to get this. Yeah, it might have been a condensed. It might have been a condensed, like, scenario where, like, I wasn't going in callback after callback. But I. I work. I earned this.

[Kevin]

Yes.

[Caroline Bowman]

And I spent my money.

[Quincy]

This was an international affair.

[Caroline Bowman]

It was an international affair. So I. And I got the sweetest email back from this. I have to look up the. The studio because I should send them flowers, like, on my opening night or something.

[Quincy]

But I. Oh, that's cute.

[Caroline Bowman]

I don't think I ever told them I got it.

[Kevin]

Invite them to opening.

[Caroline Bowman]

I should. I don't think I ever told them I booked it. I'll look back at that email. But I. I emailed him, and he was like, this is what we do. Artists have to help other artists. I'm happy to. I'm happy to help you out. Does this time work for you to come in? And I said, please let me know how much I can pay you. And he was like, how about $30 for the whole time and just take a picture with my kids that are there. Like, her. They're the students. And I was like, I'm so happy to do that, and thank you so much. And. And so I drove out there with my two dance captains from my tour because they were like, let's let us come, and we'll perfect you. And yeah, I. I filmed it and sent it in. That was on a Tuesday, because I got it on a Monday, learned it, just filmed it on a Tuesday. And then Wednesday, my final frozen sound Check. I did my final sound check and went back to my dressing room to do quick change rehearsal. And I was getting a phone call from my manager, and I got. I found out right after I had, like, cried my way through soundcheck rehearsal, I get a call that I'm gonna originate my first Broadway role. And I burst into. I was, like, heaving. I was crying so hard. And my advanced dresser came in and just hugged me, and I was like. And she goes, is this. And she goes, is this good? And I go, it's really good. It's really good. I just. I was like, I just don't have any place to, like, put this emotion. And I was, like, also trying to be so present for my final city on tour, and I was just like, ah. And so then, at least, like, I knew, but then. Then I didn't know if Sunset would work out, because I was like. So then I had. I was like, I'm leaving tour early to go do Sunset. This has to work. Like, it has to work. Yeah, but it's. But I'm not gonna not do Smash. So I was like. I was like. So they went back to them, and it all worked out. They were like, yeah, we'll. We'll let her out. We'll give her that out in her contract. And. Yeah, but what a wild thing I.

[Quincy]

Was just gonna say. I'm so moved by, like, the community of people that helped you book this job. Like, you're saying, like, your dance captains, you're, like, the scene partners, your husband, the dance studio. All these moving parts really worked out.

[Caroline Bowman]

Absolutely. And I was like, it helped me be locked and loaded. Cause I was like, okay, I know what I have to do. And then I have, like, I have people that have my back to, like. And whether I book this or not, I'm gonna do the best possible thing I can and also show this team how much I care about this and how that it wasn't me. That me saying, I'm so sorry I can't come to this audition wasn't a bad. Wasn't because I don't want to be in the show. It's because I. I value. I value every show I do. And Frozen. Frozen was a huge chapter in my life. And I was like, I. I just can't be this close and be like, sorry, guys. I'm gonna miss. Like, I'm gonna miss an entire weekend of shows. I don't know. I just. I just felt in my heart that I couldn't do that. And clearly, that was heard. Like, I'M like. But I also like was like, wow. They're, they're, they're not having me leave and fly across the country and exhaust myself from my last week of tour. They're going to like give me this opportunity. I'm going to make it. I'm going to do whatever it takes to show, to do my best and to like. And like the technology gods. I couldn't believe it. I'm like the way I was so worried the Internet was going to go out and like I didn't have. It's not like I had a router sitting right there. Right. It was all crazy and it, and it really was like kismet. Like they, it wasn't. I mean they say like what. What is for you won't pass you by. And this is like such, I mean and. But that doesn't come that, you know, I put in the work to make it happen. But this really was like, it was, I guess, meant to be and everything.

[Kevin]

Aligned perfectly for you.

[Quincy]

It also is the like if you love something, let it go. If it comes back like you auditioned for it and it didn't go your way and you let it go and then it came back to you.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah.

[Quincy]

So it's like how, how meant to be is that.

[Caroline Bowman]

It's crazy.

[Kevin]

So what was it like doing your final show in Frozen, closing this huge five year chapter. But also I imagine having all of this excitement about the next things to come.

[Caroline Bowman]

We call it overstimulation. I have, I feel like I have felt overstimulated like since I got back from tour or since I finished. Since I booked Smash and finished tour, I've been like. And also getting my feet back on the ground here in New York. Like I haven't lived here. I haven't full time lived here. And I only had. I only got back to New York a week before I started rehearsals for Sunset. So I mean, in a way the blessing of Sunset being what it was me, me essentially being Norma Desmond of the basement of the St. James was.

[Kevin]

That's the musical I want to see.

[Caroline Bowman]

I was Norma Desmond of the basement.

[Quincy]

In the St. James.

[Kevin]

That's like an Off Broadway parody.

[Quincy]

Yeah. MTC.

[Caroline Bowman]

Totally. Totally. You're not the first person to say that you want to see that show. Really? Maybe that's what my solo show is called.

[Quincy]

Yes, I think that's it.

[Kevin]

You mentioned not knowing if you were ready to stand by, talk to us about that.

[Caroline Bowman]

I. Because I don't want to Poo poo. Standing by. This was just such a particular position to be in because there's a guest star. There's an alternate, essentially.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

So I'm. I'm really never the first one to go on. And. And Nicole and Mandy are really not call. Like, they're not gonna call out. I mean, it's like. Which is very inspiring and cool. Like, I. I believe in that. I mean, like, do your job. Go, go, girl. It's also as wild thing, too, being a standby for a celebrity, because you have to conquer the idea that, oh, my gosh, if I go on last minute, a bunch of people who came to see Nicole don't know who I am and will probably return their tickets or if it were to be really, really last minute and they, like, announced my name because I. I had to. I had to. I had to grapple with this because there was a day that I. That I thought I was going on, and. And while I was thinking and preparing for the show that I might have been doing, which I didn't end up doing, I was. I did have the. The thought did cross my mind. I was like, oh, my gosh, they're going to boo when they hear Nicole Scherzinger is not going to be. Or the role of Norma Desmond is going to be played by Caroline Bowman. And I was, like, looking at myself in the mirror. I said out loud, I said, that will not be about you. That will be. Because they are disappointed that it's not her, but it's not about you. And, like, even that extra thing is so, like, the fact that I even had the mental space to go. You're gonna have to bear down and just handle that and move on is why that's crazy. That's like, there's already enough pressure being a performer. You're already nervous, and being a standby and not doing it all the time. So. Yeah, I. But also, I. I just feel being. I'm. I think there might come a time where I'm like, you know what? I'll play the role every. Every so often and then hang out like. Like. But I might. I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I'm just.

[Kevin]

You seem like a workhorse.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah. I'm, like, so itchy to. To keep doing it right now.

[Kevin]

Yeah. You never stood by for Elphaba, Right?

[Caroline Bowman]

I was the understudy, so I was on stage all the time. Yeah. Which was. And I was 23. I was, like, fulfilled.

[Kevin]

So talk to us about what, if anything, you learned by standing by and what challenges arose.

[Caroline Bowman]

I mean, because I'M I'm such. I am a workhorse. So I. I would probably do this on my own anyway. But a lot of information is not given to you. Like, you. You kind of have to. And I'm a good observer. So, like, I. I listened to the notes that were given, and I was like. I was like, okay, how does that apply to what I can do?

[Kevin]

And were you singing along to the shows?

[Caroline Bowman]

Sometimes. Sometimes I would do, like, a workout during act one and then, like, and, like, sing along with her while I was moving my body. But my gosh, I was. I was. I would do that at home where Austin heard me sing all of Sunset Boulevard. Like, I do, like, a 40 minute insanity workout and just, like, speed through the entire show. Like, all the lines and all this, and just, like, it's wild how many times I've run the show. And then I got to do it once.

[Quincy]

Yeah. Which is so, like, like, it's like the antithesis of the traditional, like, actor schedule of, like, we learn something for two weeks and then do it over and over. Like, you're. You're aiming for easy replication. So, like, what is it like? Then you're like, okay, I'm doing all this work. The show opens. I'm just gonna keep rehearsing. I'm just gonna keep getting ready so that maybe I'll get to do it, and then, you know, you're gonna do it just once.

[Caroline Bowman]

That was starting to get to me a little bit. Like, the amount of preparation and. And rehearsals and then having. No, there was no release. Like, there was like. Yeah, there was no payoff. You just do that and then you're like, right, right. And even in rehearsals, like, I think. And I think it. I think. I honestly think it was because I didn't have enough of a break between Frozen and Sunset to release, to, like, have shed that. That experience. Because I. I would find myself up and rehearsing, and then the second they would, like, I would be up and rehearsing, and then the second they would say, okay, Mandy or Nicole is going to take over, I. I, like, tears would come to my eyes. Like, I'd be, like, interesting. Like, it would just. It just kind of broke my heart a little bit.

[Kevin]

So this was, like, a really mentally challenging time for you.

[Caroline Bowman]

Sure. And then I had it all to, like, release on the. So, like, all I let. I just, like, tried to, like, let it, use all of it, use all of, like, any frustration I had. And I don't know what that was about. And I need to, like, maybe Talk to my therapist, which I don't have, so I need to get one.

[Quincy]

Well, we're here.

[Caroline Bowman]

I was. I'm here. You're here. Yeah, I was. I. I did, like, I found myself, and I would tell Austin this. I'm, like, I found. I find myself, like, on the verge of tears, and, like, I need to. And then I'd have to go sit down in my chair and go, okay, okay, I'm a professional. Let's go. Here we go.

[Kevin]

Well, you're in this, like, thankless role, having to put in all this work and then kind of being on the scene throughout the whole process, especially while Sunset is, like, the darling of the season, you know?

[Caroline Bowman]

Right.

[Kevin]

But hearing all this, it does sound like the way in which you went on was kind of like the perfect scenario because everyone had advance notice. All of your people were in that theater. I told you. It was like the most electric night I've had in the theater since the Wicked reopening. It was so, so special.

[Caroline Bowman]

The bittersweetness of it all. Like, I only got to do it once, but it was the only way to do it. Like, if I. If I was going to have any. It was like I got to have all the closure from all those times of feeling a little bit like, damn. I just. I. I want to do this. Yeah, I want to do this and this, and. But it's not. But I. But I respect and know. The intelligent side of my brain respects and knows that it was not my part. But the emotional side was like. Like, I am just the COVID but I. But I have so many ideas, and I'm. I want to create and be here to create, but I'm not here to create. I think that was. I think maybe that was the sadness in me, and I was like, I just came from a place where I got to do it every single day and be like, oh, I didn't like that. Let me try this tomorrow kind of thing. But, yeah, that show was. I'll never forget it for my whole life. I had no idea it was going to be that monumental, that one day theater history. It was crazy. It was wild. But again, I finished it and I go, wow, that was incredible. Damn, I want to try this tomorrow. Like, I don't get to do any of that. Like, I. Anything. I'm like, oh, I want to fix that mistake or that I have. I have so many notes for myself, and I have so many things I want to, like, dive deeper into or.

[Kevin]

Like, what's a moment that you're spiraling on in your head.

[Caroline Bowman]

I mean, vocally. Vocally, I felt like I could have been better, but I. I came in early a little bit, and as if we never said goodbye, I, like, I jumped. I jumped, but I had not. It's the second time I heard the orchestra singing. This is the second time I sang with the orchestra.

[Kevin]

Crazy.

[Caroline Bowman]

An Andrew Lloyd Webber orchestra. Like, I was like, okay, I listened to this song, but singing it and hearing the music, you know, and also, like, what else? I mean, I think there's just things I would have liked. I did. I think I did do a good job of, like, letting the role kind of take, like, going on the ride and then being like, what? And then also enjoying the, like, the. The fourth wall broken moments. Like, that was really fun. Like, I was like, okay, well, this audience is here for me. And I'm like, when is this ever gonna happen again? So I. Yeah, I better, like, eat it.

[Kevin]

Yeah, I better.

[Caroline Bowman]

I better, like, use that. But it was all in the moment because I couldn't plan for that. So I had to just go, great, okay, what am I gonna do here? Which is very freeing.

[Kevin]

Were you feeling nerves ahead of time or just. Because sitting in that theater, the love was, like, so apparent. So was it nervous, or were you kind of just being like, oh, these are my people? I feel at home.

[Caroline Bowman]

Austin kept calling me a freak because he was like, you're so oddly calm. And I go. And I slept. I slept so well. I don't sleep well for anything. Like, if I have something looming, like, the first day, I'm like, I'm getting to the end of this week, and I feel the. I've been sleeping better because I'm just so tired. But the first. Before the first day of Smash rehearsal, I didn't. I think I was awake the whole night. I think it was a light sleep because I was like, huh, here we go.

[Quincy]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

But I slept so well. I woke up and was like, wow, I'm rested, and I did not wake up at all. And I feel like I knew I was ready. Like, I was very rehearsed. I. I prepared, I sang. I did the show every single day. The. The week leading up to my show because I. I sang it with. With Ben Rahala. I sang. I. He would get. I got rehearsal spaces and just, like, did the whole show every single day. So, like, I wanted it to feel like my show chords. Like, my chords were ready. Like my. I had sunk my teeth into it a little bit. Yeah, I was able to manage my nerves, but I think what like, got me laughing was because I came up the stairs from my dressing room. Norma in the basement from my dressing room in the basement. And I heard the audience cheering. I heard them cheering, which I have seen since. Seen the video of my husband, like, going like this. And then I heard them chanting my name. And I was like, stretching or something and I go, what the actual fuck is happening? Like, I was like, that. That made me kind of go, okay, this is like.

[Kevin]

It was so fun.

[Caroline Bowman]

If I don't have a little bit of fun, like, what is this for? So that kind of like, grounded me in a weird way. And. Yeah. And the show is just so raw and exposed and I was. I had a space full of people who were there to keep me safe. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't a space that. Where I had to, like, question whether they were on my side or. Or had I had to get them on my side. Right.

[Quincy]

Which especially, like, given the previous anxiety about, like the booing or like the. The surprise going on of it all. How nice to have the polar opposite. Opposite of that.

[Caroline Bowman]

It was so cool. And I'm. I. The role is so fun. Oh, it's so fun. I really hope I. I hope I get to do it again. I think that's another totally. I mean, I've got time to do it again, I think. I think I was probably a little. Probably a little bit lean, young, leaning for the role, but this production won't happen again. And this production, I think, is really special and very cool. I wrote. I wrote Jamie an email and just told him. I was like. I just thanked him one more time for believing that I had that in me. But then also creating such a cool actor's playground. And it's only something I could know from experiencing it. It's like, wow, there's so much to play with with nothing. It's just. There's nothing on stage and everything to play with.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

And then you've got like, brilliant. I mean, Tom Francis and. And David Thaxton were right there with me and it was just. It's that company. So they were. They were so supportive.

[Kevin]

Is Norma of your big four, Elsa Elphaba, Evita Normal. My theory is Norma is the easiest of the four.

[Caroline Bowman]

Correct. Yeah.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Caroline Bowman]

My only thing. My only thing is if. As if we never said goodbye, we're a half step up. Or I could option up. I would have been able to hold it longer, but I also would be able to hold it longer. The. I've come home at last. Not that it. Sometimes it doesn't need to be. Whatever. Not my. Whatever. It's not my. It's not my role. It's not my role.

[Kevin]

She's.

[Caroline Bowman]

She's amazing. And. And I. I just can't hold it that long. And if I. Maybe if I had more time with it, I would be able to, like, build up the stamina to do that. But a C is not my money note. It's more like a D. And so I was like, my dream would have been to do I've come home at.

[Kevin]

Last, but I would have fallen out of my seat.

[Caroline Bowman]

I'll do it in my solo show.

[Quincy]

People would have died.

[Caroline Bowman]

I just. I mean, I had the thought to do it because it was. It's a one night only event.

[Kevin]

One and done.

[Caroline Bowman]

But I also thought, I respect this team and this score. And I just, I didn't. I didn't tell them I was gonna do that, you know? So I was like, I. I don't want to go out on a sour note with these people. I want them to. I want to have mutual respect. And so I'll do it on my solo show.

[Kevin]

Are we doing a solo show?

[Quincy]

The Norma of the basement?

[Caroline Bowman]

I hope so. I think. I think I would like to. I would really like. I know I'm gonna be busy this year, but I would really like to produce an album and do a solo show, love. Because those are two things I want to do. And I think I'm going to have the momentum this year. So once I learn Smash. Open it. Feel a little comfy. Maybe this summer I'll start working on that and work on something for the fall.

[Kevin]

And you have a big number in Smash.

[Caroline Bowman]

I do that.

[Kevin]

I was lucky enough to hear you sing 20 times in a row, like four days before you were going on for Norva.

[Caroline Bowman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin]

I was like, let her go.

[Caroline Bowman]

Oh, yeah. We can't talk about my number yet because nobody knows. You're like, let her go. Oh, yeah. Marc Shaiman put me through the ringer with that number. I was like, this is not going to sound good anymore if you keep making me sing it. I hope we got. I hope we got it. I hope we got it. Hopefully.

[Kevin]

Okay, so five years on tour. Five years on tour as Elsa. One was Elsa easy for you from the get go, or did you grow into a comfortable place?

[Caroline Bowman]

I grew into a comfortable place for sure.

[Quincy]

Yeah. You found your show for sure.

[Kevin]

When do you think that happened?

[Caroline Bowman]

Well, there was a shift after the pandemic, like, in my. It almost like, it's almost Like, I released a bit of my fear and was able to conquer it more. Like, when I first started in 2019, I think. Well, when we first started in 2019, we started in Schenectady and then had our opening in la, our big opening. And we were doing, like, so much press, so much press and early morning stuff and doing the show. So that could have had a. Like, a play. Like, me being exhausted physically and vocally and mentally and all the things. So that was certainly a part of it. You were.

[Kevin]

You were singing that new song everywhere, Right?

[Caroline Bowman]

We were not singing the new song when I never sang the new song in public.

[Kevin]

Oh, really?

[Caroline Bowman]

Isn't that crazy? I'm like. I mean, I'm so happy we got to record it, but we never did it on, like, anything. Yeah. Isn't that weird? Yeah. But, yeah, I think I. I think I came back from the pandemic and felt a lot more confident, which is wild because I was really scared to come back after the pandemic. I thought I had lost it. And then it was like, I. I felt like, this is my calling. Why are you wasting it being scared? Be like, go.

[Kevin]

You thought you had lost the gift.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, I think I just felt like I was like, not. I don't know, I was getting in the way of myself. I wish. We all do sometimes. We just have to, like.

[Kevin]

So return from the pandemic is when you settled into Elsa?

[Caroline Bowman]

I think so, yeah. I came back and I was on a roll. And then. And then she ebbed and flowed. Like, it's like, depends on the allergies. It depended on the city we were in, like.

[Kevin]

But was there a moment where you thought about leaving?

[Caroline Bowman]

I mean, I definitely thought about it and then. But my contract, I mean, I had all the outs and stuff. Like, I had. I could leave if I got something. So I was kind of like, why? Yeah, why leave for nothing? And we found out we were closing. We found out we were closing, like, almost a year ahead of time. Like, we knew that the tour was going to close in September in, like, October or November of.

[Quincy]

Right.

[Caroline Bowman]

20, 23. So we had a lot of notice. And I was. I had already. I was planning on leaving in April when they told us that the. And then they asked me if I would extend to the end. And I was like, I guess if I think about it that way, it's really only like four more months or whatever. So. Yeah.

[Kevin]

And you opened the tour, right?

[Caroline Bowman]

I did.

[Kevin]

That is crazy to have done the entire run of a show's tour with.

[Caroline Bowman]

A little stint with Alyssa Fox at the end.

[Kevin]

Alyssa Fox? Yep.

[Caroline Bowman]

We love her. We love her.

[Kevin]

I feel like we need to discuss the Wicked movie.

[Caroline Bowman]

Okay.

[Kevin]

You went to the Friends and Family premiere. Was that the first time you had seen it?

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Okay, talk to us about it.

[Quincy]

Yeah. What was that like? I'm jealous. We weren't at that.

[Caroline Bowman]

I can't believe you weren't at that. Why weren't you at that?

[Kevin]

I think we had been invited to a couple previous screenings, so they were like, they got their fill.

[Caroline Bowman]

Oh, well, number one, before, I had ignored, like, every email I got from Wicked, other than. Other than I just, like, rsvp because I was like, I don't have time for Wicked emails. I just didn't.

[Kevin]

I was like, they're asking you to come back.

[Caroline Bowman]

I got an invitation to the movie. And I was like, yeah, I'll go to that. So I didn't really. I. I didn't. I was a bad student and I just thought I was like, great, the premiere is this day. I'm gonna show up and go watch the movie.

[Kevin]

Oh, you didn't know all the fanfare.

[Caroline Bowman]

No, I thought. I. I thought. I read it and said, I. I thought I. I don't know what I thought. I just didn't have time. I was like, I'm sorry, I. I can't get another email from a pre. A show I did 10 years ago. I just thought it was like, come. The movie starts at seven, like, blah, blah, blah. And I had read, like, maybe afterwards we were gonna do photos. Anyway, I'm. I'm. I took a car there because I wore heels. And I was like. I was in the car and I get a text from Wicked Press Team that they're like, can you let us know your eta? And I go, what? They're like, this is so and so from Wicked Press Team. Can you let us know your ETA? And I'm like, doesn't the movie start at 7? I said that. And I was like. I was like. I was like, I'll be there. I said, my car, my ETA, my Uber says it'll drop me off at 6:45. And she goes, okay, great. Will, when you get here, just go straight down to photos or somebody will lead you straight downstairs to photos. And I go, oh, oopsie. So I guess we were supposed to get there at like 6 or 6:15, but it's fine because, like, Cynthia Rivo and Ariana Grande were late too. So I just showed up with them naturally. Well, and I was like, oh, shoot. I Read. I read the email wrong. I guess they were kind of light on Elphabas.

[Kevin]

Like, we need Caroline in here.

[Caroline Bowman]

They needed, like, they needed me to hold down the fort. Cuz they had like, there was like 20 glindas and like four alphabas. It's like, which totally tracks. It totally tracks.

[Quincy]

So, so funny.

[Caroline Bowman]

I was like. I was like, yeah. Oh, okay. And I get out of the car, and I get out of the car and like somebody from the press team is like, hey, Caroline, come on, come on. Like, I was like, oh, gosh, the hustle of it all.

[Quincy]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

I was like, I thought I was coming to a movie.

[Kevin]

Did you know they were gonna be there at that point?

[Caroline Bowman]

I guess I thought they might be there. I don't know. Again, I really like my brain space. Okay. The beginning of the. To be fair, I had. There was a lot that happened. I had opening night of Sunset on Sunday. Monday they announced. Monday or Tuesday they announced Smash. They announced the cast of Smash that Friday I had my Norma Desmond put in and then. And rehearsal before that. Thursday and Friday I had rehearsal and Norman Desmond put in and then I had this Wicked premiere. So I was just a little bit like, she was booked. I was like, I don't know. I don't know which way to look. So it. That's in my defense, I'm like, I couldn't think about the Wicked movie that I was going to go watch. Like, I didn't.

[Quincy]

What else could I have to do?

[Caroline Bowman]

I did certainly not singing Defying Gravity.

[Kevin]

Did you sing Defying Gravity?

[Caroline Bowman]

No. Could you imagine? They're just like, okay, now all the alphabets take it from here. So they usher me downstairs, I take a couple Elphaba photos and then they bring down the queens. They bring down Cynthia and. And Ariana, and we take photos with them and they were lovely. And I think what's cool is that I didn't really have. I didn't have like, energy to spend. So I kind of was just kind of like, so nice. Like, I was just chill. I was just like. I wasn't like hyper about it all. I just kind of wasn't absorbing anybody's like, frenetic energy. I was just like, yeah, okay, yeah, I'll go downstairs. All right. So then when we finally got to.

[Kevin]

The movie, what she was here for.

[Caroline Bowman]

What I was here for, when it started, I was like, oh my gosh. And my heart, like, my heart started racing. Like, I was like. I mean, even from like the top with the Wicked, with the. Of the writing, that's like the wizard of Oz and like, oh, my gosh. Just like, the honoring of everything. I thought they did such a good job, and I just can't get over the way they filmed Defying Gravity and what they did with it. I thought it was so well done.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

Because that's what I've been saying for years is I'm like, how are they going to do Defying Gravity? We've already seen people fly on broomsticks. Like, we've already seen Harry Potter and it wouldn't work.

[Kevin]

Just flying on a broomstick.

[Caroline Bowman]

No. And how are you going to tell that story and the way they took their time with it and, like, she saw her younger self when she was falling. I was falling with her. I was like, that's like, okay. Oh, my gosh. It's like those dreams you have where I have this dream all the time where I can fly, but I can't. I can't. Like, sometimes it's like jumping and then I can't stay up in the air. Like, I can't figure out how to stay up in the air and like, you. And like, I'm trying to figure it out.

[Kevin]

That feels like Alphabet ptsd.

[Caroline Bowman]

Totally. Yeah, totally.

[Quincy]

That's a no fly trauma.

[Caroline Bowman]

Never had to do one of those. I did it in the ensemble for Jackie Burns. I think I was like. I was like, no one wants a wicked giver. So weird.

[Kevin]

That's a good perspective to have as an Elphaba.

[Caroline Bowman]

But, yeah, I thought that was so beautiful. Beautiful. I think Ariana is amazing. I think she's an amazing Glinda. I actually was, like, super. I knew Cynthia was going to be good.

[Kevin]

Yep.

[Caroline Bowman]

So, like, I wasn't. I wasn't sure, like, Ariana had a.

[Kevin]

Bigger bar to clear.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, I think so. She's been away from the theater for long enough, you know, and she's such a mega celebrity. Like, she's so. Whereas, like, Cynthia is too, in our eyes, but, like, she's still, like, making her way up that ladder. Whereas, like, Ariana's like, everybody knows her. And I think she probably proved to a lot of people that, like, I don't think people knew she had this in her. That gorgeous soprano and. Oh, yeah, I thought her choices were great. I think she honors Kristen while giving it her own touches. I mean.

[Kevin]

Yeah, they both had such unique portrayals.

[Caroline Bowman]

10 out of 10. I bought it. We bought it. Because I was like, let's buy it. We're supporting our friends.

[Quincy]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

I bought it. And have yet to actually stream it. I Just bought it, and it's sitting on my tv.

[Caroline Bowman]

I was like, we have so many friends who sang in it. And I was like. I was like, it's probably a movie we should own. And then Austin. Austin hadn't seen it yet, so we sat and watched it in our living room, like, a couple weeks ago.

[Quincy]

Wow.

[Kevin]

He was late to the Curve.

[Caroline Bowman]

He's so late. But the thing is, I really wanted to watch it with him. So he was. And so he was like, well, if I don't care where we watch it. So. Although it was really cool in a theater, but.

[Quincy]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, I think I. The. I think the. The problem with going to the premiere was that I like to watch movies in quiet. And that was not a quiet. I know. I'm so particular. I'm such a. I love it. It was.

[Quincy]

I love it.

[Caroline Bowman]

And it was like, we had to. We had to do all these swearing and stuff, but I was like, well, we need to pause it then, because if we're going.

[Quincy]

Yeah.

[Caroline Bowman]

Because I'm missing things. I'm like. I'm like, wait, just keep it. Keep it quick. And then let's give it a round of applause at the end and a big standing O. But not during. It's not for me.

[Kevin]

The energy couldn't be contained.

[Caroline Bowman]

Yeah, I'm here for the movie. I don't want to take a picture. I don't want to talk to anybody.

[Quincy]

I want to watch Wicked.

[Caroline Bowman]

I want to watch Wicked and feel my feelings.

[Kevin]

Oh, my God. Caroline, thank you so much for joining us after five years.

[Caroline Bowman]

You're so welcome. One more thing. When she does the wizard and I, and she, like, on the pebble, when she, like, jumps from rock to rock.

[Quincy]

Yeah, the frog.

[Caroline Bowman]

I loved that. I just thought it was so cute.

[Kevin]

Yeah, well. And Cynthia told us, which was interesting, is like, wizard and I. She starts at the bottom of the school and then works her way all the way up to the top of the mountain, which I was like, wow, cool.

[Caroline Bowman]

You guys. You guys have interviewed the movies and Elphabas, like, because of you. No, no, no. Yes. That's what I was saying. You started at, like. You started with the scum at the bottom of the ocean, and you made it to Mount Everest. No. What have you seen? Have you seen. Well, of course. My Best Friend's Wedding? It's a classic.

[Quincy]

Yeah. Yes, I have.

[Kevin]

Is it before my Tanzi?

[Caroline Bowman]

I don't know. How old are you?

[Quincy]

It doesn't matter.

[Caroline Bowman]

I mean, it's a 90s movie, so. Maybe it is. Maybe it is. Before your time, but you should watch it. It's Julia Roberts at the end. At the end. She's like, I'm pond scum. I'm. I'm worse than pond scum. I just called myself pond scum. You started with pond scum and you made it to Mount Everest.

[Kevin]

No. You're still the most exciting guest.

[Quincy]

No.

[Kevin]

This was truly a delight.

[Quincy]

This was amazing.

[Caroline Bowman]

You guys are awesome.

[Kevin]

Thank you for coming back. Smash Stars performances, March 11th. Go see Caroline Bowman as Karen Pond scum. You've been listening to Sentimental Men.

[Quincy]

We'd like to say a big thank you to everyone at the Broadway Podcast.

[Kevin]

Network and a special thanks to Mikayla Reynolds and Julia DiMarzu, our photographer and logo designer. You can find Sentimental Men on Instagram, TikTok and xentmenpod, or you can email.

[Quincy]

[e-mail] till next time. I'm Quincy and I'm kept him.