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- [00:01]
ZipRecruiter Announcer
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- [00:38]
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- [01:04]
Ross Dunn
We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help.
- [01:08]
Scott Vanack
Because a great trip starts with the right support.
- [01:15]
Ad Voice 1
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- [01:51]
Ross Dunn
Hello and welcome to SCO101 on WMR FM episode number 523. This is Ross Dunn, CEO of Stepforth Web Marketing and my co host is my company senior SEO Scott Vanack. We have a bit of a shorter show today, lots to share, but it's a little later on the news so we'll just talk really slow. It should work.
- [02:15]
Scott Vanack
Sounds good.
- [02:19]
Ross Dunn
We crack ourselves up. Okay, so right into SEO news here. 44% of ChatGPT citations come from the thirst. Thirst first third of content. This is a study and it's on search engine land. It's a recent analysis by our one of my favorites, Kevin Indig. He's always got great stuff he shares. So where ChatGPT pulls citations from 44.2% are from the first 30% of page content, 31.1% is from the middle 30 to 70% of content, and 24.7% are from the final 30% of page content. On the paragraph level, he found that 53% of citations come from the middle of the paragraphs. Citations reference the first few sentences slightly more than the last few sentences. The main takeaway here, there's a lot of data, is that front loading your main topic closer to the top of your content performs best. Key insights should lean towards the middle of paragraphs. Now, just as a pause here, I would imagine it's, you know, we're doing so much analysis of what AI sees and I would expect that they're doing that because that's naturally how we write. Just guessing. But I'm not sure how much what we do will change now. It's not pooh poohing the great research he's done. It's always nice to have data, but it becomes a bit almost like navel gazing at a point. I'm not wondering how much of this we're actually getting value out of.
- [04:07]
Scott Vanack
Yeah, well, it does seem kind of logical. And I mean, this is something that we've talked about a lot is we refer to it as, you know, put your too long, didn't read content at the tops, where you summarize all your key points. Well, that it fits perfectly with this. That's, you know, like the core takeaway content that you want your users to see. Put it at the start, you know, it's, it's logical, but it's nice to see data that backs that up as well. We're not just making stuff up. It's actually, you know, it's truthful.
- [04:34]
Ross Dunn
Yeah. There's some other traits that he found for highly cited content. Definitive language. Cited passages were nearly twice as likely to use clear definitions. Direct subject, verb object statements outperform big framing. Yes. This is Kevin for you. If you want really, really analytical information, read his stuff. It's fantastic. I love it. But yeah, it gets a little into the weeds. And in his defense, I mean, he's not really the ideal subject for SEO 101. He's more into the enterprise level SEO game. So that's why he gets into some of this really detailed stuff. But I still think it's fun to share. It's interesting. And you never know, you might get something out of this that you just never even considered before. Next is conversational Q and A structure. He found that cited content was two times more likely to include a question mark. 78.4% of citations tied to questions came from headings. AI often treats heading twos as prompts and the following paragraph as the answer. What's next here, Scott?
- [05:52]
Scott Vanack
Yeah, so entity richness. So typical English text contains about 5 to 8% of proper nouns. And they found that heavily cited text averaged 20.6% proper nouns, which is. I don't think I would have ever thought about that. But you know, get your nouns in there, people. I don't know. A balanced sentiment. Sentiment. I said. I thought it said sentiment, but I don't think I did. A cited text cluster. Geez. Blooper. Real no cited text clustered around a subjective subjectivity score of 0.47. I'll explain that in a second. Here is neither dry fact nor emotional opinion. So A score of 0 means that text is completely objective and factual, whereas A score of 1 is highly subjective and opinionated. So a score of 0.47 indicates that the text leans slightly more towards being objective, but does contain elements of personal interpretation or opinion. Which kind of makes sense as well because we do talk about, you know, putting in your personal experiences and your personal knowledge and, and it plays to that. Perfect. What are you doing to be factual?
- [07:07]
Ross Dunn
It also we're talking about stuff that's cited. It's stuff that is content that is unique. Whereas if it was just dry fact, you could get that from a dictionary. Probably they're trying to get this from real authorities. So it does make sense that there be some subjective personal interpretation or opinion put in there. So that's good. It's good to see.
- [07:37]
Scott Vanack
Absolutely. And then this one kind of surprised me. It was a business grade clarity. So winning content averaged a Fleisch Kincaid grade level of 16, which is like college level versus lower performing content that had a level of 19. Well, 19.1, which is like academic pht level, PhD PhD level text, shorter sentences, plain structure beats out dense academic pros. Now I would have thought a lower score would have been good because everybody talks about, you know, even clients. Like, oh yeah, I try to write for a grade four level audience and or whatever, like really low level, really dumb it down so that everybody understands what you're saying. Like, who wants to just read huge words all day unless you're a lawyer. I mean, it's fine, we can read the big words, but you really want to. But I would have thought it would be a lower score than that.
- [08:31]
Ross Dunn
I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt. Well, I guess we should with most of this, but this particular one, puzzling to me. Heck I write sometimes and I'm no wordsmith and I end up getting schooled on it being too technical or too, you know, probably from the Flesh Kincaid Flesh. Flesh or Flesh Kincaid grade level would probably be 12 or whatever and for some reason that's too strong. So I don't know. This is suspicious to me. But then again I guess it does want to take content from authorities and authorities and subjects are generally this is general but highly educated depending on the topic. So this. I wonder it would depend on what he used for his research, what kind of topics that would really have. You know, if there's anything scientific about it, obviously it would make sense for this data. Anyway, I'm thinking too much into it, I'm sure, but it's makes me pause.
- [09:45]
Scott Vanack
Yeah, fair enough.
- [09:47]
Ross Dunn
Yeah.
- [09:48]
Scott Vanack
But yeah, anyone that's interested in this so should definitely check out the article at Search Engine Land. It's in typical Kevin Indig style, you're going to want a coffee and maybe a cozy chair because his stuff is long. And I'm not saying that as a bad thing, but it just is. It's very detailed and comprehensive and you know, you're not going to skim through it in 30 seconds and learn anything. It's a lot. So I tried to pull out the key takeaways here. So it's hard to talk about something that's so comprehensive. Yeah.
- [10:18]
Ross Dunn
Okay. Four sites that recovered from Google's December 2025 core update what they changed. So as it sounds, this is for Marie Haynes. She discusses details about four sites that managed to recover from the Google's December core update and what they changed. So we have a little perspective on what may have worked. Now what she's put together here is some pretty good data. You never know exactly which thing made the major change, but all of it is good, smart positioning. You know you're not going to lose on any of this stuff. It's just good, smart updating. So we can trade off here. I'll start with site one medical e commerce site. In this case, the site improved their blog post quality to avoid generic content. They enhanced their page load times and optimized image use. They upgraded the FAQ sections on product pages to better address customer inquiries. Very, very smart. Developed comprehensive guides and improved product descriptions to clarify customer queries. Excellent. Increased details about the expertise of contributing authors. That's massive. We know how important EEAT is, so making that clear within your site makes good sense. Increase the number of medically knowledgeable authors contributing to the site. Yeah. Boosted customer reviews to Reflect better customer service and finally focused on improving customer service as a key element influencing their recovery. Post update. That is a lot. They worked their butt off. They deserve to get restored. That's, that's impressive. I mean, who knows how much of it was done but I mean. Or to what level, I mean, but getting the feeling that it was done pretty darn comprehensively. All right, what's.
- [12:19]
Scott Vanack
I love that. I love that a lot of this is stuff we recommend all the time. So it like makes me feel really good to see somebody else validating our own opinions and.
- [12:29]
Ross Dunn
Yeah. And that's why when we have like I have sales calls often and when I do, I talk about the stuff that would need to be done. And you know that we're kind of a partnership. We can't just get you the visibility unless you've got something worth seeing and that has authority that's earned the right to rank. And all the stuff we've mentioned time and time again in the show, but the ones who do it, they succeed. We've got clients. I've been with us, I don't know, we've had clients have been with us over 20 years. But I think probably the RV, when I'm thinking of what it's probably been 12 years, I don't know.
- [13:10]
Scott Vanack
Anyway. Well, they've come and gone because they did a bunch of consulting a few times before they became a regular client. So they, we've known of them for, I don't know, a long time. Very long time.
- [13:21]
Ross Dunn
It could probably, you could be 15 years, who knows? It's. It's. We're getting so old now. It's.
- [13:26]
Scott Vanack
Yeah.
- [13:27]
Ross Dunn
Crazy. But yeah, it's it. They do so well is what I'm getting at. And they stick around because they are doing well. And why would you want to change, why would you want to change SEO providers when things are working so well? Anyway, let's jump to site two here, Scott.
- [13:42]
Scott Vanack
Yes. So the second site was an affiliate marketing site that was selling high ticket items. So here are the things they did. They purchased and reviewed products personally, providing detailed photos and videos. Yes, please, like definitely do that. They added content created by experts with clear communication about their qualifications. They used AI to generate unique content ideas based on personal experiences. They utilized Microsoft Clarity to identify and rectify user frustrations on their website. They added interactive elements like quizzes to engage users. They regularly updated important posts to keep content fresh and relevant. And they improved core web vital scores and focused on reducing the largest contentful paint time. So I'm imagining that their scores were very bad, if that's on this list. And actually when it comes to core web vitals, it's one of those funny things where it kind of doesn't matter as long as you're in the same ballpark as your competition. Really. Like if your score is. Unless your score is really bad. If your score is really bad, you need to improve it. But they reaches a point where, you know, you don't have to have a perfect score. You just need to have a good enough score in most cases. But definitely keep an eye on it. If it's bad, address that.
- [15:06]
Ross Dunn
But yeah, when I saw that this was an affiliate marketing site getting restored, that's, that's impressive. I'm not. I mean, you'd have to have serious cojones and time and money to fix a site that's been dropped in affiliate marketing because most people would just churn and burn it. It's just too much work. So huge props to whoever did this. Huge. Good for you. That's a tough market.
- [15:37]
Scott Vanack
I think the big one is, is the first point where they talked about purchasing the products and doing proper video reviews with photos and all that. Nobody does that. Well, not nobody, but few, few of these companies do it, especially the affiliate sites. The affiliate sites, you know, they produce. I don't know what it's like today necessarily, but I remember I dove into it a little bit many, many years ago. I don't have a single affiliate site anymore, but. And it's because of stuff like this. The work involved in performing well with these sites is huge.
- [16:04]
Ad Voice 1
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- [16:19]
Mackenzie
My name is Mackenzie and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a non verbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed, we had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with.
- [17:06]
GoFundMe Announcer
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- [17:19]
Talkspace Announcer
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- [18:21]
Scott Vanack
It's got to be your full time commitment or you've got to be paying people to do stuff all the time. You can't do it after dinner for a couple hours a week. You know, it's, you're not going to succeed.
- [18:30]
Ross Dunn
Well, I think the second most powerful one was adding content created by experts with clear communication about their qualifications. I mean those are signal, signal, signal signals. There's nothing but good things about that. That's textbook good. So that's great. Next one up is a very difficult market too. It's site 3 is an E commerce site in your money or your life niche. That's Ymyl they call it, which is like the first niche to get absolutely hammered. Anytime there's any kind of algorithmic change, they're just on a, they sit on a fence or on the peak like ready to fall off any which way the wind blows. It's, it's just insanely difficult market. Of course, fairly good money in it too if you can be good at it. So props to them. All right, so in this case they improved their site navigation and hierarchical structure for better user experience. Modernized site aesthetics including font and overall design for a more professional look. Enhanced the checkout process to reduce abandonment rates. This is an E commerce site to note that expanded The About Us page to better showcase the brand's history and expertise and created content on timely topics to earn authoritative links and mentions. To me that sounds like the main one, the one at the end. Timely topics, earning authoritative links and mentions. I mean, not to say the other stuff shouldn't have been done, but I bet that was more of the needle mover.
- [20:02]
Scott Vanack
I'm curious about this one too because a lot of what Marie talks about that they did is, is really geared towards user experience and site design. And you know, I think we know that having a well designed website can perform well and you want it to look good and be user friendly. But I wouldn't have expected it to have enough of an impact to pull them of. Well, it's not really a penalty but you know, pull them out of being hit by an update like this, I would have thought that would have lesser. Lesser impact. But maybe there's really just really bad.
- [20:33]
Ross Dunn
Yeah, really bad.
- [20:36]
Scott Vanack
I can't talk about it because I don't want to throw people under the bus, but I've seen some really bad sites lately that are straight out of the 90s, so maybe it was, you know, in. In that vein. I don't know.
- [20:45]
Ross Dunn
My favorite is usually when we see those, we hear them say what everyone says they love it.
- [20:50]
Talkspace Announcer
Yeah.
- [20:51]
Scott Vanack
Oh, that's just like an old client we had like a million years ago and they had animated gifs all over the place and automated mini like MIDI files. So it would be playing music, different music in every page. And the backgrounds were like loud and obnoxious and different on every page. And it was like for a very professional business. And it did awesome. Like, okay, you know what, that would
- [21:13]
Ross Dunn
be in now probably it's going to come all full circle. Just like bell bottoms are coming back.
- [21:19]
Scott Vanack
Oh my goodness, that would be so fun to build this website. Like that'd be like a flashback to our high school days or something.
- [21:25]
Ross Dunn
Oh, totally. Oh my God, that would be a ton of fun. Kind of tempted, actually. I'll have to bring Front Page back so we can use that too.
- [21:34]
Scott Vanack
Oh, I've got a bunch of backup disks. I'm sure I've got a copy sitting somewhere in my closet.
- [21:39]
Ross Dunn
We're talking about Microsoft Front Page, which was a web builder that was. It was easy to use, I'll give it that. But boy, did it cause content. Oh man, the code in it was just horrendous.
- [21:50]
Scott Vanack
Anyway, I know I have a copy of Dreamweaver somewhere.
- [21:53]
Ross Dunn
Me too.
- [21:54]
Scott Vanack
It wasn't so bad. I mean, by today's standards. It probably sucks, but back then it was pretty good.
- [21:59]
Ross Dunn
I found my Photoshop 3 disc the other day.
- [22:03]
Scott Vanack
Ooh.
- [22:04]
Ross Dunn
Yeah.
- [22:04]
Scott Vanack
3.
- [22:05]
Ross Dunn
3.
- [22:07]
Scott Vanack
You run it on a Windows 3.1 machine?
- [22:10]
Ross Dunn
I don't know. Okay. All right.
- [22:13]
Scott Vanack
Move on to the next one, I guess.
- [22:14]
Ross Dunn
Yeah. Common techniques across.
- [22:15]
Scott Vanack
All about site four. Do we want to talk about site four?
- [22:18]
Ross Dunn
Oh, yes.
- [22:19]
Scott Vanack
Right.
- [22:19]
Ross Dunn
I skipped it. Sorry. Go for it.
- [22:20]
Scott Vanack
Just like poor site four. They're, like, listening. Talk about me now and you're just gonna drop them. This is. There's a lot less on this one. This was a city guide website that is monetized using affiliate links and sponsorship. So it's kind of like an affiliate site, but not like your old site. I did have a site. Like, it's gone now. And actually, whoever stole my site, they. They snagged up the domain and then they scraped the site off archive.org and put most of it back up. That's a whole. That's a whole other conversation about what I think about that. But. But it was similar. It was similar. I wish I knew this before.
- [22:54]
Ross Dunn
No scruples.
- [22:56]
Scott Vanack
No, not at all. Yeah. So this. This site incorporated videos filmed by their team to add authentic authenticity. They use original photography to enhance content uniqueness. They detailed personal experiences with recommendations like best dishes and must visit spots. And they ensured content was continually updated and relevant. Content all comes down to content.
- [23:19]
Ross Dunn
It all comes down to the one thing that Google's been telling us to do for years. Make your content great. Yep.
- [23:26]
Scott Vanack
Not magic.
- [23:27]
Ross Dunn
No. The common techniques across all four sites. Improving content quality. What a shock. Updating existing content. Enhancing user experience. Demonstrating expertise to build trust and use of original media. Kind of anticlimactic.
- [23:51]
Scott Vanack
It's so simple, but yet nobody, no, few people seem to be doing it. And it's so frustrating when I tell some clients, these are the things, which is essentially this. You need to do this or you need to pay us to do it. Those are your options. Or pay somebody to do it.
- [24:05]
Ross Dunn
Yeah.
- [24:06]
Scott Vanack
And they don't want to pay anyone to do it. And they don't do it themselves. And then they wonder why something's not working. It's like, well, stuff has to get done that somebody has to do it. But.
- [24:17]
Ross Dunn
All right, well, if you were hurt by the core update. Marie suggests that technical SEO fixes and even building new links are unlikely to be your solution. Based on what we've seen there, that makes good sense. I mean, she suggests consider whether your brand has trust issues. You know, a prolonged history of repeated customer customer service Frustrations, fraud or anything else that significantly impacts your reputation will seriously impact your ability to rank. This is especially true if you're writing on your money or your life topics. Look at how your content is structured. Improve headings, but important content should be near the top. Make it really easy for people to find the main content. She notes that sites that are often impacted tend to make users scroll through a lot of fluff or ads to get to the important bits. Oh my God. That just rings the bell for recipe sites, eh?
- [25:10]
Scott Vanack
I was just gonna interrupt you and say recipe site.
- [25:13]
Ross Dunn
Oh, terrible. I don't want to ruin anyone's livelihood, but I'll look at a site, go skim through it like, okay, I really want to see this recipe. I will now drop it into adblock browser because I'm so fed up with those ads. They're terrible. You don't.
- [25:28]
Scott Vanack
And you don't want the 600 word description of how it was Genghis Khan's favorite food and why.
- [25:33]
Ross Dunn
Yeah, exactly.
- [25:35]
Scott Vanack
Oh, but the crappy part though is I don't think these recipe, these chefs making these recipe websites want to include all that crap. No, Google makes them do it, you know, and then they need the ads for revenue because they're not really. They don't necessarily have something to sell. Maybe some of them have cookbooks and things.
- [25:53]
Ross Dunn
But you said Google makes them do it.
- [25:55]
Scott Vanack
Well, to have all this extra content, if you just throw a recipe up, oh, it's differentiating your recipe amongst all the other million recipes. So you need that backstory or something to set yourself apart. And what do you say?
- [26:07]
Ross Dunn
Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't mind reading about the history if I want to, but I should be able to get the content quickly and usably and then I'll bookmark it and I'll go back. I don't know how much value that adds, but it's something. Yeah, it's very frustrating. I. They're terrible, unfortunately, but I think they're just getting, like you said, pushed into a corner. It's the only way they can make money and I don't think that's going to last. It's going to be a tough market to stay in. Yes, I think they're going to need something like substack, a place that's strictly for recipe creators where, you know, you can have your own place and they can block it to AI, I don't know. Or at least block a substantial portion of the content and just have the tldr available or something, which, you know, frankly, that's got to come. We need that. It's, it's not fair that it can just provide that much information. Pretty much the whole thing anyway. Gonna get off tangent. Okay, onto a tangent there. I don't need that. Lastly, ask yourself whether your content is mostly commodity content. This refers to content that's widely available in many spaces online. Now, we talked about that earlier. If you're not providing your professional experience and really adding value, it's commodity. It's nothing. It's, it's easily made anywhere else and you're not gonna succeed so much with it. All right. It's going to be very much an uphill battle. All right, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we have some local SEO news. Welcome back to SCO101 on WMR FM
- [27:58]
Ad Voice 1
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- [28:03]
Scott Vanack
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- [28:05]
Ad Voice 1
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Scott Vanack
Who even am I?
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- [28:14]
Ross Dunn
It's here.
- [28:15]
Talkspace Announcer
It's really here.
- [28:16]
Ad Voice 1
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- [29:14]
Ross Dunn
I'm myself Ross Dunn, CEO of Step 4th Web Marketing and my company, senior SEO Scott Fanac. All right, what's here with the local SEO news? Oh, you're muted again.
- [29:30]
Scott Vanack
I don't even remember clicking mute. But I'm back anyways. Yeah, so this is just a bit of a reminder to be careful when setting up a Google business profile. Barry Schwartz over at Search Engine Roundtable posted a reporter reported on a LinkedIn post by Claudia Tamina. Sorry Claudia, I don't know you, but I do. Now a little bit about this and she talks about how you can sort of get in trouble with your setup if you're not careful. So first we're going to list out some of the setup options that you've got and then her views on these. So during the setup you will be asked what option best describes your business. The options provided by Google include my business has a physical location for customers like a restaurant or a shop. My business has a physical location but travels to work at customers locations. So an example there could be a plumber or a photographer, electrician, that kind of thing. My business travels to meet customers without a staff physical location. So that could be a personal trainer, dog walker, things like that. My business is unstaffed and my business is an unstaffed facility where transaction can take place and contact information for customer support is available. So that can include like an ATM or electric charging station for a car or I can't think of any other examples in the two that they give but I'm sure there are others. And Claudia broke it down as follows. So online only. If you select my business online only you are effectively disqualifying yourself. So don't do that unless that's what you are. I suppose we know online only businesses do not qualify for Google business profiles. I would imagine these are her words. I would imagine you get suspended if you submit this.
- [31:20]
Ross Dunn
It's kind of trap. It's like they're just trying to sneak a trap in on their. On you. I don't know sneaky they are.
- [31:27]
Scott Vanack
It's like you know, a little piece of cheese in that mousetrap was waiting. The hybrid model is like a business. My business has a physical location but travels to work at customers locations. This is sort of a classic service area business with a storefront. Her concern is that it could trigger a workflow that eventually suspends the profile or forces the address to be hidden if the documentation doesn't perfectly match the selection. One is a staffing requirement. This option specifies businesses that travel without a staffed physical location. Google guidelines state your business must be staffed to show the address. So choosing this may force your option to into a hidden address service area business type status.
- [32:14]
Ross Dunn
And then they're talking about like personal trainers and dog walkers. I mean they don't really need to have a Google business profile anyway.
- [32:21]
Scott Vanack
Yeah, and directions don't make sense for that. But if you, if you select that erroneously and you know, or something, you don't realize that you're, you're in trouble. You got to be careful. And then the exceptions are like the ATMs and EV charging stations. They're the only cases where unstaffed entities get a pass on the physical presence rule. Oh, parking lots. I bet that would be another example. Got one. Yes.
- [32:48]
Ross Dunn
Awesome. Well, great. And some good insights there. So be careful when you are setting up your Google business profile. If you're going to do it yourself, do remember that you need to do your homework first so you don't make any big mistakes that will get you in trouble. That's becoming increasingly easy to do. And don't always trust what AI tells you either.
- [33:11]
Scott Vanack
No.
- [33:13]
Ross Dunn
Oh boy. That's a whole. Isn't that the truth, man? Well, that's it. We've had a pretty good show. So on behalf of Myself, Ross Dun, CEO of Step 4th Web Marketing, and my company, Senior SEO Scott Vanack, thank you for joining us today. Have a great week and remember to tune into future episodes which air every week on WMR fm.
- [33:36]
Scott Vanack
Thank you for listening everybody.
- [33:56]
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if you're an RIA Schwab advisor, services is the Watson to your homes.
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Talkspace Announcer
Smart, dependable, always has your back with
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Scott Vanack
all the wealth, services, technology and support your firm needs.
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