The Best SEO Podcast: Defining the Future of Search with LLM Visibility™

Episode: Be Calm and CRO On with Talia Wolf
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Matthew Bertram (MatthewBertram.com)
Guest: Talia Wolf (Get Uplift, taliawolf.com)

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep dive into conversion rate optimization (CRO) and emotional targeting in the age of AI-powered search and commoditized digital marketing services. Host Matt Bertram welcomes leading CRO expert Talia Wolf to discuss the critical importance of understanding your audience’s emotions, leveraging research for real results, and regaining focus on human-centric marketing strategies as large language models (LLMs) and AI tools reshape SEO landscapes.

The conversation goes beyond tools and tactics, urging marketers and agencies to return to the fundamentals: deeply knowing your customer and communicating on an emotional level. This is more important than ever as traditional metrics like web traffic decline and the competition for meaningful visibility (including LLM "answer engines") heats up.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The AI Frenzy vs. Human Fundamentals

Timestamp: 00:02–07:59

• Matt introduces the central dilemma facing today’s marketers: the allure of AI tools and automation has led many to lose touch with copywriting fundamentals and psychological triggers.
  • Matt: "We've outsourced our brain to AI. We're not doing thinking anymore." (00:55)
• Talia sets the stage by emphasizing that while technology is evolving, human motivations remain unchanged.
  • Talia: "Technology changes, but people don't." (04:23)
• Marketers are urged not to forget there’s a real person on the other end of every digital interaction.

2. How AI is (and Isn’t) Changing SEO & CRO

Timestamp: 07:59–14:22

• AI-powered outputs are only as good as the data and insights you feed them; generic in = generic out.
  • Talia: "If you use [AI] to outsource your thinking... the output is generic." (05:50)
• The "median" performance of LLMs risks making everyone sound the same, raising the baseline but not creating differentiation.
  • Matt: "It's giving you basically the best mediocre, like middle of the road data." (08:06)
• The real opportunity with AI lies in using it to synthesize meaningful, customer-driven insights.

3. Emotional Targeting: The Heart of Differentiation

Timestamp: 14:22–19:43

• The digital marketing, SEO, and agency landscape is becoming highly commoditized; differentiation depends on connecting emotionally and solving customer-specific problems.
• Talia introduces her core framework, identifying two main emotional clusters:
  • Self-image: How customers want to feel about themselves post-purchase (proud, smart, successful).
  • Social image: How others perceive them after buying a solution (seen as a leader, knowledgeable, promotable).
  • Talia: "There are two clusters of emotions that impact buying decisions the most. One is self image... The second is social image." (15:18)
• LLM-based "conversational search" is bringing out more emotional, nuanced queries from prospects.

4. Why Most Agencies & Brands Miss the Mark

Timestamp: 19:43–23:28

• Most agency/brand websites and campaigns are generic, feature-heavy, and self-centered—leading to commoditization.
  • Matt: "When someone's trying to get more visibility for SEO... how do you decide between all these agencies if all these agencies are also checking the box?" (19:43)
• B2B companies still default to "safe" providers (the IBM Effect), but risk missing connection with emotionally motivated buyers.

5. How Agencies Should Adapt Right Now

Timestamp: 23:28–29:40

• Agencies need to rethink not just their services, but how their teams operate; AI and prompt engineering skills are important, but real value comes from human insight.
  • Talia: "It's not about using AI better. It's about honing your own knowledge and becoming that person that steers strategy." (25:30)
• Proven, repeatable processes and the ability to communicate unique value are more essential than chasing every new tool.

6. SEO Metrics Are Shifting: It’s Not Just About Traffic

Timestamp: 29:40–31:53

• Traditional metrics (traffic, rankings) are increasingly disconnected from business value and customer journeys.
  • Matt: "It's not about rankings, it's not about being first position... It's like, is this selling?" (29:52)
• Conversion, lead quality, and true business outcomes matter most—especially as traffic drops.

7. CRO Best Practices: Where to (Actually) Start

Timestamp: 31:53–36:50

• The foundational, often-overlooked first step: Research.
  • Gather customer insights through surveys, interviews, review mining (Reddit, social listening), and VOC (voice of customer) data.
  • Talia: "The start here is always research... really understanding what people are talking about, what they're complaining about, what they love, what they hate, what they're missing." (31:54)
• Audit websites from a customer-outcome perspective—not just with checklists (colors, buttons, generic features).
• Overcoming the "hamster wheel of optimization": Many are just copying competitors, tweaking minor elements, and skipping research due to perceived time constraints.
  • Talia: "The research feels like, ugh, who has time for that? That's like four to six weeks... But the insights... are incredible." (35:05)

8. Enterprise Realities & the Changing Buyer’s Journey

Timestamp: 36:50–38:53

• Many enterprises have relied on established branding and sales teams but are now being forced to adapt as buying journeys move online and decisions are made before contact.
  • "The buyers and the people... are doing this online research and they're starting from such a basic level..." (36:55)

9. Speed, Attention, and Immediate Connection

Timestamp: 38:53–41:19

• With attention spans plummeting (now shorter than a goldfish!), immediacy and clarity in messaging are critical.
  • Matt: "It's, it's really critical to get to the point and know who you're speaking to and have them raise their hand and get them to take action." (40:14)

10. The One Secret: Slow Down and Do the Research

Timestamp: 41:19–42:23

• Talia’s biggest advice: Resist the urge to chase new tools and shortcuts—invest in research and emotional understanding for long-term competitive advantage.
  • Talia: "You do have time to do the research. You should be doing the research. And the only way to get results is by doing that." (41:24)
  • "If you don't do it now, I don't think you're ever going to get to it." (42:08)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Technology changes, but people don't." – Talia Wolf (04:23)
• "It's giving you basically the best mediocre, like middle of the road data." – Matt Bertram (08:06)
• "If everyone looks and sounds the same and is saying the same generic stuff, how do people make a decision?...If you're not closing that emotional gap, you are losing that sale." – Talia Wolf (10:34)
• "There are two clusters of emotions that impact buying decisions the most. One is self image... The second is social image." – Talia Wolf (15:18)
• "It's not about using AI better. It's about honing your own knowledge and becoming that person that steers strategy." – Talia Wolf (25:30)
• "The start here is always research. That is probably the number one thing everyone should be doing." – Talia Wolf (31:54)
• "You do have time to do the research. You should be doing the research. And the only way to get results is by doing that." – Talia Wolf (41:24)
• "If you don't do it now, I don't think you're ever going to get to it." – Talia Wolf (42:08)

Practical Takeaways & Action Steps

• Stop Chasing Tools: Refocus on fundamentals—copywriting, emotional triggers, and true audience understanding.
• Prioritize Research: Interview customers, analyze conversations, and mine reviews/social channels for genuine insights.
• Make Your Messaging About the Customer: Audit your site and communications for customer outcomes, not company bragging.
• Emphasize Emotional Connection: Elevate beyond features, price, and logic—speak to your audience’s aspirations and pain points.
• Adapt Metrics to Reality: Traffic is declining; optimize for CRO and lead quality, not just top-of-funnel numbers.
• Strategic Experimentation Beats Blind Action: Use research to inform hypotheses, test changes, and measure true impact.

Where to Find Talia Wolf

• Agency: GetUplift.co – Conversion optimization consulting fueled by emotion-based frameworks.
• Book & Resources: TaliaWolf.com – Book "Emotional Targeting" and DIY courses/tools.
• LinkedIn & Instagram: Look for Talia Wolf for CRO tips and resources.

Final Thoughts

In an age where AI raises the baseline and competition for digital visibility intensifies, the real secret isn’t found in the latest tool, but in deeply understanding and resonating with your audience—emotionally, personally, and authentically. Go back to the fundamentals, do the research, and remember: if you’re only visible to algorithms and not to the humans behind the screen, you’re missing the mark entirely.