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The Best SEO Podcast: Defining the Future of Search with LLM Visibility™
Maximize AI Adoption and Upskilling with Proven AI Training with John Munsell
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- [00:02]
Matt Bertram
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet.
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John Munsell
Marketing, your insider guide to the strategies top marketers use to crush the competition. Ready to unlock your business full potential? Let's get started.
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Matt Bertram
Howdy. Welcome back to another fun filled episode of the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. I am your host, Matt Bertram. A couple quick housekeeping. We may be rebranding the podcast again. I brought on a new project manager and you know, based upon what y'all have said, we've, we are going to make some more changes. So just be looking out for that. Thank you for being patient. As Chris left, we're kind of moving in a new direction and to continue our series, I know something that's very hot for everyone is, is AI and what's going to happen with that. And as we're doing this series, I'm bringing in all kinds of movers and shakers and the experts in the industry. Ran across John Munsell with Ingrain AI. Who is teaching people how to be an AI culture first or in your business and your company how to have an AI culture first. I think it's really important based on kind of a K shaped approach of either you're going to adopt AI and you're going to rise and you're going to take more market share and you're going to grow, or you're going to keep doing exactly what you're doing and those other people are going to pass you by and it's going to become increasingly more difficult. So I would encourage you all to listen up to John. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I think everybody will listen intently to what you have to say as they're trying to figure out what to do with this new thing called AI. That hasn't actually been new, but it's new to the public since chat gbt.
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John Munsell
So right now, good to be on. I appreciate you having me on, man. I, I spent 25 years in digital marketing, so been doing this a while myself.
- [02:07]
Matt Bertram
Yeah, it's, it's constantly evolving. It's a, it's a moving target. Certainly there's a lot going on with large language models and really all the search engines are AI. That's essentially what you're doing is you're training the model to understand who you are and what you do and what your expertise, authority and trust is, to rank you higher, to be the right answer for a number of different questions. And I really call SEO the language of AI in a lot of ways. With schema and the things that you're doing, you're just, just Trying to better communicate with the large language model and it creates a feedback loop. And what we're seeing with a lot of businesses is they're really starting to get serious and say, hey, we need an AI program. How are we going to do this? We don't want you using maybe public language models. We don't want you to add to the database proprietary data. And so people are getting more sophisticated in what they're doing. I'm actually seeing a number of companies start to roll out AI initiatives and you know, I think it's really going to start to impact the bottom line. I think also even with some publicly traded companies as they start to harness AI, you're going to see some real growth. So Salesforce, for example, as is one example that I'm following pretty closely. So.
- [03:43]
John Munsell
Yeah, well, if you followed Salesforce, then you may or may not know that they just bought. Oh gosh, Respell Respell AI. So big fan of Respells Respell does AI automations and AI agents. And when they acquired them, I was like, oh, good for them because we had the, the founder of Respel on our, our, we have a mastermind. We had him speak to our mastermind last year. So I was happy for him. But on the other end I was like, God, I hope they didn't one of those deals where they bought them to just trash them because they were in their way. Because it was a really good product. But I got a good.
- [04:26]
Matt Bertram
I think the agents is, I mean, tell me a little bit about what you're seeing. I mean, I, I am spending a bit of my free time playing around with agents because I, I think anybody that's doing knowledge work or computer work, I mean there's even tools where I can, if there's anything somewhat repetitive that I'm doing, I can teach an agent how to do what it is that I'm doing and then give it a little autonomy and, and eventually that's. That, that, that could be a little employee right there. Right. And, and so you're, you know what I see people doing and, and I haven't dug into it enough, but they're building out full teams, right, with different specialties, doing different things. And, and I think the, the, the VA space, you know, the customer service space. Like even with Salesforce, the sales space, I mean, I've seen some sales agents that are blowing my mind on what, what they can do. And then you're able to link all this stuff together and then even chat. GBT just came out for 200 bucks a month, you know, with, with, with their agent program. And, and I'm just going, man, this is moving really, really fast.
- [05:42]
John Munsell
Yeah, yeah, it's moving really fast. But I think it's like anything else. You got to crawl, walk, run, right? Running is the agent side. All right? You got to figure out how to walk before you get to doing agents, and then you got to figure out how to crawl first. So a lot of people are still, they haven't even addressed the crawl stage. So what they do is what I would call untethered AI. So in other words, they just ask AI to write them a blog post and they get something that sounds like AI. And if you just let that go into an agent now, you're going to have crappy sounding copy at scale, you know, which is, is going to really screw with your SEO as well. So that's where you need to back down and figure out how do you actually prompt the AI to, how do you structure a prompt so that the AI not only sounds like you, but actually shares your thought leadership inside of whatever you produce and has the intellect to know how to optimize that? Right.
- [06:48]
Matt Bertram
Well, I think that that's where you, you're, you're uploading data files, right?
- [06:55]
John Munsell
Yes and no. Right. So, so if step one is just learning how to get the AI prompting down. So fair enough, right?
- [07:05]
Matt Bertram
So if we're, if we're, if we're breaking it down, it's about, you know.
- [07:09]
John Munsell
So step one is that, but, but in order to do that, you need to know what goes into a good prompt in order to get the output down. And what we teach is a framework that we call the AI Strategy Canvas. And it teaches you, and you, you can download it from free for free on our website, but it teaches you what blocks of information are necessary in order to get the best output out of AI. Once you understand that, then you move into the next stage, which would be what I would call the, the walk, walk fast stage. And the walk fast stage is building like a custom GPT or a Gemini Gem or a Claude project. Because now you've got repetitive stuff that you need to do, but in those GPTs, you can upload the documents that you need so that the AI has stuff to pull on, but you still need to have the right framework for what that prompt looks like. All right, so now you've got a machine that's built, let's say to, you know, I'm going to stick with blog posts for a while. So you've got a machine that's going to do the blog post. Once you've got it to build the blog post, you can also have, have it write LinkedIn posts and other social media posts based on your blog post, right? You can have it, SEO it, etc. But then what happens next is you, you might want to do it a little better and a little faster and then you can start linking these GPTs together. All right, so inside of one context pane, inside of ChatGPT, you know, you can call another GPT, right? So you can start with one that maybe analyzes the topic that you're trying to do, pulls in current research on it, and then the next one you're calling in your blog post writer. And so now it writes the blog post. But in, in it, as part of your GPT, what you want it to do is ask you for your thoughts on the subject. So the first one analyzes it, brings in a lot of data, summarizes it and you look over that and now you can inject your thoughts. But the, the next GPT writes like you, knows how to write a post, knows how to structure a post, knows how to do everything and then it starts to write it. But if you create the, the GPT the right way, it does it in sections. So you don't want it to try to write it in one felled swoop, you want it to write it first, create an outline and then create the sections. That way you can get a bigger blog post. Otherwise you're going to end up with a 500 word blog post that doesn't go anywhere, right? So now once you've done all that, now you got a really solid blog post, you call in another GPT which then SEOs the post or gives you tips for seoing it, right? So you can do all that.
- [09:56]
Matt Bertram
You're breaking apart the tokens in a way that you're having one action that you're optimizing for, or one thing that you're doing. So it becomes more of a refinement process or a sequencing that builds out. And then I guess after you do that, you automate it.
- [10:18]
John Munsell
Yeah, exactly. What I'm doing is I'm operating it from the front end. At this point I'm just creating custom GPTs, I'm operating it from the front end. I got my process down, I've got my outputs down. Now once I got all that, then I can turn around and basically duplicate that on the playground and run APIs and, and create automations to where it does all that every morning for me. Let's say I could literally have it every morning, go scour the web for current information, come back, give me all that stuff. So then I just look at it, approve it, hit another button, and then it rolls. And then eventually it populates a Google Doc that I would then look over and figure out how to go pop it into a WordPress blog or something like that. Makes sense.
- [11:05]
Matt Bertram
Yeah, no, that, that, that's what I'm working on is, is. Is taking that workflow and then being able to, to be able to push it where you're. You're loading in maybe topics or you're proven topics, and it's pulling one and then, and then the output is, it gets published, right? And then, you know, I do believe there's other agents, which I haven't quite figured out yet, that can make sure that it's optimized with inside, maybe WordPress or something like that in the. I've figured stuff out that if you're not building it inside a builder, right, you're building it in that kind of word text on the back end or like Visual Composer. There's a lot, there's a lot you can do with that with API calls and things. And so, yeah, I just, I guess, you know, certainly I see the opportunity in this, and I think a lot of people listening see it as well, and a lot of people are building this, but at the same time, I'm terrified on the other end of it, right? I'm terrified that I'm not moving fast enough, that other people are moving faster, that, you know, can this get away from me? Because I constantly read and do webinars and go to conferences to stay on top of it, because there's been. And if we just stick with SEO for a minute, you know, in the last, let's say, 36 months, there's been more changes in the last 15, 20 years. And so actually tomorrow I'm having Bruce Clay on my podcast. So, you know, father of SEO. And, you know, I mean, things are just moving so, so rapidly to keep up. And then, you know, once these agents start to, like, let's say 12 months from now are kind of fully launched and people are, are operating that space. Like, I'm like, that's gotta be me, right? And if it's not me, you know, who is doing it. And they're going to be so far ahead, right? They're going to be so far ahead. And so, you know, you got to constantly. It's a moving target, but it's moving a lot faster now. And it's like, how do you stay on, on top of this in a way that, like, you know, SEO, SEO is dead. You know, SEO, you know, long live the king kind of thing. Like, but this is like, no, this is moving exponentially in a direction that's going to fundamentally change how things are done. It's not just like, you know, further on the plot line in that general direction. Does that make sense? I don't know. That's at least how I'm viewing it. And so that's where a lot of my time is going, is to really figure this out. So we're operating at the highest level at, internally at our agency.
- [14:08]
John Munsell
Well, I think that's, that's really where specialization is going to be even more important. If you try to be a generalist, it's going to be very hard to succeed. But if you become a specialist, that's where you're, you're going to have some domination. So I, I mean, like, for instance, I had a, a friend of mine say, I just don't. Man, there's so much happening, you know, he's on our mastermind group and he was like, there's so much going on. I don't know what to do, do I? This, do I need to do this, this, this, this, you know, And I was like, dude, you're going to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. We, we, we need to drill down to what it is that you do every day in your job to make you more effective and then turn around and focus on the AI tools around that and then become the specialist in that for your audience. That's the only way you become a master at something is by solving your own problem first. Right? And you've got to do that over and over again. So if I were going to be so backing up, I've had an agency for the last 25 years and we became a, we started off as a software company and then became a digital marketing agency. And I sold the agency part of that off three years ago to just teach people how to use AI, because I knew that was the new direction. But I have a lane that I want to stay in for that. I, I could be really broad and then, then my head would explode because, I mean, God, every, every hour a new AI tool is launched. So you just can't keep up with that. But what you do have to do is figure out how to master, you know, a handful of them and be really effective at executing a certain lane of things. That's where you can provide more value. But, you know, SEO, I don't, I would, I, I think it's going to change its name is really what I think is going to happen. I, I'd love to be the guy that coins it, but it ain't going to be SEO anymore. It's, it's going to be aieo, which.
- [16:13]
Matt Bertram
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I've heard that. And, and I, I, you know, over the years, certainly, like, I actually started on the paid side of things and then really fell in love with SEO. But all, but also one of the biggest things is that, you know, I would say we really focus on lead generation, right? And lead generation is even broader than SEO. And SEO, that definition has expanded as well, right, because you're talking to the social media, large language models and algorithms and really it's like how that orchestra gets put together. And so there's a, you know, people say it takes a village to, to do SEO, right? And, and, and certainly, you know, building out different agents that have different specialties. And we have quite a large SEO team. But, but we offer really kind of full, full marketing, like outsourced marketing for companies. So there's, there's a lot of things that we're doing that are ticking the box in, in different areas. And, and so, you know, there's not one thing, right. If you look at attribution, it's not, it's not the, you know, a lot of times adwords gets, gets the attribution, but there's many other touch points that happen, right? And they're all across the funnel. You have, you know, people finding the brand in different ways, whether it be on social media, whether it be through SEO, you know, whether it be through, you know, Reddit. Right. We're seeing a lot of opportunity in Reddit. You know, certainly right now we're, we're actually internally, one of the big specialties that we've been developing is only 4% of all searches are AI right now. But, but we think people, we think that's going to grow.
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John Munsell
I got a different stat just this morning. I got a different stat than that. Literally just this morning. It's up to 57% now. Now I don't know where that came from.
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Matt Bertram
Okay, wow.
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John Munsell
But, but it's, it's frightening. Now you, I think what they're saying.
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Matt Bertram
That'S all searches, though. So that's like, hey, how's the weather? Like that. Those are not commercialized searches. I don't think so.
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John Munsell
I don't know. Because if you think about it Google has inserted Gemini, the AI overview. Right? Yeah, I go to Perplexity now before I go to anything. I also use Chat GPT's web search now, which is trying to go head to head with Perplexity. It's, it's changing way faster than, than 4%. I mean, way, way more than that. And I think the behavior is changing as well. So instead of, you know, people searching for keywords or maybe a little bit of long tail, they're getting paragraphical, if that's even a word. I mean, people are describing in detail what they want. And that's where the new game is to really step up your content production, to answer the questions that your customers ask in a sales process. And that is one of the GPTs that we've created. Also. I want to know what, what our customers ask, and then I want to create content around that. And I want that content to be deep enough to where I can publish it across every Internet channel there is. Now, all of a sudden, I've got a fighting chance for an LLM to pick me up when somebody says, how do I do X, Y, Z? Like for instance, one of the top producing pages that we have on our website right now is how much does AI training for a business cost? That's the blog post, right? That's a pretty damn long tail. Right. You know, but it's a pretty focused one as well. So those are the kinds of the things that you need to be learning how to produce, and AI will let you do that faster. But again, given that all the content now is really becoming, I don't know, the majority of it's getting produced by AI, and a lot of it's being produced by AI without a human in a loop. And the majority of the stuff that AI LLMs are trained on is the massive content that was written, say prior to 2022, right?
- [20:44]
Matt Bertram
Oh, yeah.
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John Munsell
The thing that it doesn't know is what excellence looks like. It just knows what quantity looks like. So consequently, what it writes by default is average or below average. Right. Sometimes it's repetitive garbage that it just keeps hearing. And so if you tell it to write a sales page, it's going to sound like a crappy infomercial from the 90s. So we, we want to be able to know ourselves as SEO experts or copywriters, what excellence looks like so that we can drive it out of AI. Because the real race is going to be AI versus AI, right? You got AI detectors out there detecting AI written content and they're kicking it out. Right. And so now you got to have AI that beats that AI. It's a radar detector. Radar to gun war, you know.
- [21:32]
Matt Bertram
Yeah, no, I, I mean, I think that when, when you, when you look at how Google's changed, so, so one is, Google said, I felt like they waved the white flag, right? And they were kind of, it was kind of like, no AI content. It's like, okay, AI content, but it's got to add value, right? And then they also changed it where it's, it's parsing the entire page, right, for the answer. It's not just saying this, this answer. And so it's going to kind of the zero search result. And you're seeing in the AI overview. Here's the interesting thing. Google's losing money per search. Okay. They're actually spending electricity and energy and that's why I think they're going after the nuclear power plants and stuff like that, because it's costing them money to produce those AI overviews. So even a search that they don't make money on is costing them to offer a better answer because they don't want people, well, leaving search because those ads is what makes all their money. And I think to your point, what I'm seeing is, well, one is if you're qualifying for the core keyword, okay. And how strong that is in the rankings, you qualify for the long tail keywords. And there's hundreds searches, like you said. Now if you hit on something that's a little honeyhole, you want to build some content around it, certainly. But really, 25% of all searches today are still brand new searches that Google's never seen before. So then it's pulling from all the existing content. It has to better answer the question. But I do think you hit it head on in the sense that you know what each page is trying to do is answer that sales process as best as possible. And so you're trying to figure that out now to shift gears a little bit because I really thought what you're doing is interesting. I want to switch gears from kind of content and SEO to more kind of, okay, businesses that, that are developing an AI first culture and kind of, where do they get started? What does that look like? What is the definition, right, of, of a AI first culture and maybe some examples of that. I would love to kind of transition into that if we could.
- [23:58]
John Munsell
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if you read online, you'll see all these stats that 86% or 87%, whatever companies have adopted AI. But then if you get in front of an audience of say small to medium sized businesses and you ask for a show of hands of who's using AI, that number drops to about 30%. So don't believe what you read. The adoption curve is, is, is going on the way up. But what, what they're, all the news, I think they're reporting is what's, what's the Fortune 100 doing? I don't know about you, I'm not in the Fortune 100 and the vast majority of, of our clients aren't either. So they're all small to medium sized businesses or small to medium sized enterprises and their adoption rate is. Think of it this way. Everybody's essentially self taught if they're using it at all. Right. Doing it a different way. Pardon me.
- [25:01]
Matt Bertram
Sorry, sorry, sorry. There's a little delay here. So like, I mean I would say if you're in a Fortune 100 company and they're using Copilot, right? Or whatever, Microsoft Copilot. I mean they're using AI in, in there, which definitely is a great use, is making sure your grammar and you're writing, you're writing your emails are, are very polished. But I would say that depending on the survey, like I would say, oh yeah, they've totally implemented AI, right. And then I would say the small businesses, hey, I asked Chat GBT for whatever and it's like, you know, have you used AI this week? Okay, yeah, I've used AI this week. So I agree with you from an adoption curve standpoint. You know, I, I don't know. My mom, this is a funny story. My mom was one of the first employees in Microsoft. And when those kind of red boxes came out before Redbox kind of dominated the market, there was a bunch of these coming out. I was going to buy some of them. I was out in Florida and I was like, hey, I, I think that these are going to be good. And my mom was like, no way, no way. Waste of money. Shouldn't do that. Everything's going to be streaming, right? Netflix, kind of. This is pre Netflix.
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John Munsell
Yeah.
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Matt Bertram
And, and she was right. The majority of it is, but there's still red boxes at pharmacies and grocery stores today because that tail is so long right now. So I think this adoption curve is going to take a lot longer. But I'm telling you right now is if you're at the front end of that thing, I mean, you know, you're going to be massive, massive advantage, massive boost.
- [26:45]
John Munsell
Totally agree. Yeah.
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Matt Bertram
And then it might just get away from us. Like, who knows? Like, I think like I don't know where digital agencies are going to go in 36 months. You know, I mean.
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John Munsell
I don't either, but I know, I mean, you know, to kind of go to your. Your question of what's an AI first company look like? It's beyond copilot, okay? An AI First Company is where every employee is thinking, how do I get AI to help me do this faster? And it could be just ideation, right? Like, I have. I have GPTs that I've created to help me think through problems. I have GPTs that I've created for our organization that inside the GPT is just about, you know, every document they would need that was describe our products, our services, our processes, or whatever. So they can use it to either create content on one side or they can use it to ask the AI a question instead of me. You know, those are the kinds of uses. Like, I was. I was on a live stream this morning and we were talking about sales, marketing and AI. And I was telling them that one of the things that we do by default is all of our. Virtually all of our sales conversations are held over Zoom. Because, you know, we. I think we have two employees in Lafayette. Everybody else is all over the country or the world. So we record all those on Zoom, but we always have a note taker present. If I'm in front of somebody, I use this little device. If you've ever seen that before, it's called a Plowed Note Plaud. Go get one. They're great. They also have this goofy little wearable version here. All right? So you can take that into any conference room and record the thing. It will give you a transcript. You can create your own customization for analyzing the transcript. Those things are invaluable. So we take the transcript the minute. You know, we usually use Fathom, but there are others, Meat, Geek, you know, there's a ton of them. But we take that transcript. Even though Fathom has its own summary, we don't use its summary. We've created our own. We analyze it so that we understand how well we did in the sales presentation. Because the, the. The GPT we created knows all of our products and services. And so it's going to analyze that call and say, where did we miss an opportunity? It's also going to analyze that call and help us understand where the prospect was coming on. What were the. What were coming from? What were some of the subtle signals that we may have missed in the conversation. It'll bring that all out to us and let us understand that sales Call better. And then we take that same thing, we roll it into a different GPT, and that GPT generates a sales proposal, all right, Based on everything it knows about that conversation. Then we take that one and we roll it into a different GPT. And that GPT now analyzes the prospect. And guess what it does. It makes that prospect a Persona. So we make it generate a disk profile and an enneagram like, there goes my thumb again. And so now it then knows how our, well, theoretically, it knows how our prospect is thinking and reacting. And so then we tell the GPT to become that Persona. Instead of the theoretical Persona we started with in marketing, now we have the actual Persona. And so then we have that Persona. We have GPT, assume that personality and read our proposal. And then we have it come up with the objections that the Persona would come up with and the questions it had. And then we have it rewrite the proposal to address that. And we go through that cycle three times. Until now we have a proposal that's refined to hopefully beat every objection that our prospect would potentially have. And then we move into another one that then generates an email that also refines it based on the Persona that we can send to the prospect and say, hey, we got a proposal ready. You had all these issues, we've addressed them. When can we meet? Right. So all of that stuff is done by AI and that's thinking AI first, right? That's not just saying, hey, how can I make this a really fast copywriter? And stuff a bunch of boilerplate in there. I've now got a proposal that is so customized and personalized. It's, you know, you, you don't get that in old school agency world that I used to have, I used to have a whole lot of boilerplate and I would just have a summary of what they wanted. And here's what we're going to sell you, you know.
- [31:25]
Matt Bertram
Yeah, no, I, I really, I really like that in that getting in the mind of the prospect and figuring out what those questions might be based upon the available data. And if you're bringing actual information in from, from the meeting with them, you're putting in really quality data so you're not even guessing. And, and then, and then answering those objections prior to the case because I, I think, you know, when I'm training my sales guys or consultants, I guess, is that I think a lot of times they, you know, you got to get on the call with the client and you got to, you got to understand and see what those objections are because, you know, if they walk away and you don't know what their objections are and they've got all the information on the proposal, you know, they're off making their own decision of, you know, if you're the right fit for them or not, or there's questions that they have that they might not have answered or solved. And so I would say that the success rate would go up dramatically utilizing the process you just described.
- [32:36]
John Munsell
Well, I mean, I always tell people marketing is the new sales, right? They're, they're intertwined now to a degree you've never seen before. So with AI, we have the ability to research our market and create a Persona that we actually use in marketing as opposed to, as an agency charging somebody for a Persona that we don't ever look at again. We can force AI to use that Persona. But before a sales call, in order to get on the call with somebody, you can use AI to really analyze that prospect. So you can do account based marketing.
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Matt Bertram
To an social media now to build a profile based upon all.
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John Munsell
Yeah, I can, I can look at their Twitter feed, I can look at their LinkedIn profile, I can do a whole lot of other stuff, I can look at their bio that's on the website, I can look at their website itself and then I can turn around and, and if my AI knows all the products and services that I sell, I can say, what problems do they have that I can potentially solve and then build a profile around that. And now I've got a whole better way to make that phone call. I, I've had, you know, every now and then a spammer gets through to me and wants to sell me something and then they go, what do you do? And I'm like, you don't know. You called me and you don't know what I do.
- [33:57]
Matt Bertram
So they're just going down, down the list or the phone's ringing, you know, Crazy.
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John Munsell
Yeah, but there's no excuse for that now, right? There's no excuse. Right. And so he gives you an opener that like you've never had before in terms of an advantage. You know exactly what their, their business does and you can get that research within 45 seconds of the phone call and brief yourself really quickly with some really powerful stuff. But imagine starting your day as a sales rep and you've already got the 50 or 100 people you're supposed to call today and you got a solid briefing on them before you make any dial. And it tells you exactly what pains, problems and frustrations they may have that you can solve. That's Powerful.
- [34:39]
Matt Bertram
Yeah. I mean I used to do cold call selling and we were calling 60 to 80 people a day. And when LinkedIn came out, that was kind of like the first iteration of it of actually knowing some kind of information. Many times it was like calling people in a directory. Right. And you just had a name and a title and you had to actually build out who that was and their background and all the Persona.
- [35:04]
John Munsell
So you have to hope they're still alive and they still work for the company, right? Yeah.
- [35:08]
Matt Bertram
Oh yeah, yeah. Is that information even correct? Right, right. And so they're, you know, and, and then, you know, and I, I think everything's reversing. Right. So I was certainly of, like, hey, you want to buy a chicken? You want to buy a chicken? You want to buy a chicken? You're going to find someone that wants to buy a chicken. And, and you're trying to reach as many people as possible. So I started using digital marketing from a leverage standpoint to, you know, customize a one to many message and get that same message that had a high response rate out to as many people as possible. Now we're going to the opposite of this spectrum that, well, I think it's expected and certainly I get annoyed even getting phone calls or emails when it's not personalized. Right. And you can do personalization at scale now. And you know, I think that that's where everything's going to go because it's not. If you're getting sold to something you actually need and it's personalized and it's solving a problem for you, you welcome it. But when it, when it, when it's just, just random kind of spaghetti on the wall, that's, that's when I think it gets annoying. So I want to transition if we have time here to, you know, we've talked about maybe that the front end marketing on top of the funnel content, SEO, we touched on that. Then we touched on the sales component which I think is what's going to really make waves. Right. Some of these AIs too that are doing the outreach and that are. So there's human checks and balances in your process. And I think it's phenomenal. I've seen these AIs that do the outreach and can go back and forth and have a conversation and it absolutely blows my mind if you don't have a complicated cell. You know, I think you're more talking B2B and I. And I think that there's so many industries that are B2B that haven't taken advantage of marketing like B2C companies had. I actually have another podcast that I do in the oil and gas space and I do it with the person that founded the agency's got the largest oil and gas podcast. It's called the Oil and Gas Sales and Marketing podcast because, you know, everybody's original in oil and gas and we actually talk about how to integrate, you know, marketing qualified leads and sales qualified leads because a lot of people think marketing is just, you know, graphic design and brief promo stuff. Right. And how far it's become and how you can land $100 million contracts through inbound. Right. And I think that for the CMOs that are open, it's starting to absolutely change the game and I think that there's so much opportunity in that area to address. I would love to break this podcast into a third, third, third here and talk about those AI first cultures of maybe some use cases of a company that's integrated in AI into what they're doing and how it can exponentially help them solve a problem or add more value or do something in the whole business case of a full stack integration into the core DNA of what they're doing. Because I think that sales is one thing and, and I think there's probably right now, like you said, people saying that they do it maybe a little bit more lip service than, than, you know, hey, we are. This is integrated into our workflow and I would love to hear some case studies and examples about businesses that have adapted that and kind of transform their business.
- [38:57]
John Munsell
Yeah, I, I can, I can tell you about the people that have gone through our training and how it shifted the way they do. And, and actually I've, I've given a lot of examples of those in the, the book that I just released pre release to the public. It'll go on sale in Amazon sometime in March, but I released it and.
- [39:17]
Matt Bertram
The book's called Ingrain AI Strategy through Execution. Is that right?
- [39:21]
John Munsell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can go to Ingrain AI and get a, a copy of it for a while. I'm, I'm giving people pre release copies, digital copies for free. So if anybody hears this, they can go grab that at Ingrain AI. But, but the, what's happened is as, as you know, you've been playing around with it Matthew for a while. Right? So you, you've been playing around with Chat GPT for a couple of years. You probably played around prior to that with Copy AI or Jarvis, as it was called before Jasper. Right. So you've, you've Been around the block, but you're like every other marketer. They're like, oh, wow, this is going to speed up my job. So the majority of businesses got their first taste of AI through the marketing department, which is way different, you know, from. From normal. So now what you have to have is you have to have other people in the organization going, hmm, how can I use this? Right. Sales is. Is a logical one, but there's so many sales teams that are far behind that they don't realize they can use it. HR is another one. Customer service is another one. Finance is another one. Legal is another one. I could go on and on. We teach skills tracks in each of those disciplines, by the way, but go ahead. You had a question, Matt?
- [40:44]
Matt Bertram
So the biggest challenge I've seen, depending on the size of the company, is real buying from the top. Right. You're bringing something new in. Right. And. And you want to get it integrated. Like, I can. I can tell you, I know some companies that are acquiring other companies, and like you said, they're. I think they're just kind of acquiring them to. To. To take out the competition because. Because they can. And I haven't seen a lot of companies fully integrate those teams. And so a lot of times they operate kind of independently, and even their CRMs are not really talking to each other. So I. I think that from a. When I say lip service, I. I kind of mean, you know, yeah, we're going to do AI. Yeah, like, AI is going to change the game, but. But it's got to come from the executive team down and saying, we're. We're. You know what? We need to do a whiteboarding session, and we need to completely rethink how we do this and what are the steps and where can we add AI to this to help increase that efficiency? Because if you have some champion that's trying to pull everybody else along and everybody's not bought in and it's not being forced from the top down, I think the success rate's going to be mixed.
- [42:12]
John Munsell
Yeah. Yeah. So here's. Here's what we're seeing. Okay. Not to totally age myself, but I'm. I'm in that age where the. The people my age are the ones that are now running the company. Okay. Give or take 10 years, let's say. All right, I'm stunned at how many of them are like, I don't know what this AI thing is. And all of the younger people are like, we need to use this. So what we get is this influx of C suiters. Coming to our training and saying, I need to get my head around this so that I can filter this through the organization and manage it. So that's basically step one is getting the leadership team together and helping them understand not you can go anywhere and get these little trainings that teaches you why it's important and what you know it is. That's useless. You got to move beyond that. You need to know how it can apply and how to do it and how to speak about it at a consistent level across the organization. And that's what we try to teach. We try to just go, okay, look, I'm not going to teach you the history of LLMs. I'm not going to teach you the history of machine learning. I'm not going to teach you about robotics. What I am going to teach you to do is use AI tonight and do something. Okay? And, and then by the time you're finished with our course, you will have built an AI automation. Well, not necessarily an automation. You would have built a GPT or a series of them. So that's the capstone project, right? I, I want them to, I want the C suiter to know what it feels like to have an AI do something that took something, some task of theirs that would take a week to do and then all of a sudden have it done in an hour or something that would take three hours to do and have it done in about a minute and a half. When they see that happen, their heads explode and they go, okay, now I got to get everybody using this, but how do I get them to use it so that we have shell shareable scalable knowledge? Well, that becomes a process, right? It's like in any other organization. The way you scale is by developing SOPs, standard operating procedures that are documented. Everybody, if somebody leaves, somebody else can come in, know the process, get onboarded and, and execute with excellence, right? You have to do the same thing with AI. And again, you know, once they understand that framework and that foundation, then it starts to really scale. And then you get, if you develop it right, then you get HR going to marketing and going, hey, you know how you wrote that job description over here. Can I take that prompt? Because now I want to write a job description that meets the legal requirements for our documentation inside, right? And then you get somebody in legal, like this is a whack incident you, you were talking about. You're in the oil and gas space. One of the guys that went through our training is a chemical engineer or a chemist, I can't remember which. He works for some of the largest oil companies in the world. He develops chemicals for them to use in various rigs and other things. He applies for somewhere between 15 and 20 patents a year. And he's got a software application that costs $15,000 a year to help him create these patents. And then he hands it off to an attorney who does a patent search to determine whether or not there are conflicts with his patent. And so they employ a team of legal big business. In our training, okay, in, in the first three weeks. All right, so. And in our, our training is recorded, and we have office hours twice a week where we, we work with them, live, and help them finesse what they're doing. But everybody knows you come in and you're going to leave with something that works for you. This isn't a playground. You're going to have something that makes your business better. This guy built a patent analyzer, so it literally will analyze his patent, it will look at other patents, it will tell him where the conflicts are, and it'll help him rewrite the patent so that there are no conflicts. And then he just hands it to his attorney. So he terminated a $15,000 a year software application, and instead of spending three to five thousand dollars per patent in legal fees, he's paying now about 800 to a thousand dollars in legal fees. And when he hands off the brief to the attorney, they're like, whoa.
- [46:49]
Matt Bertram
I can absolutely see that we, we built something like that for content gap analysis. And you know, but I think solving a bigger problem with more zeros associated with it, more value, I can absolutely see that kind of scenario happen over and over again. So not just more productivity, but a cost savings based on the current process of what they're currently doing. Okay, so we're kind of getting to the end here. I want to just understand a little bit more, and I think for the audience as well, of kind of, you know, the service offering you have, from a corporate training standpoint, want to understand a little bit more about maybe, you know, you find a business that needs it, they probably hire you. And how do you kind of graft your organization to that company? Because, you know, a lot of this stuff can't be implemented or solved overnight. And so, you know, there's a real process to, to change mindset to get some of these workflows and sops implemented. So I'm curious, kind of, okay, you, you have a great community. It looks like you're doing corporate training, you're getting people into workshops, you have office hours. I, I totally get all that. I want to know a little bit more about the, the direct engagement. Right. They're like, they, they want it, they want it done with you, right? They want it done with you to get it implemented. Kind of. How are you approach approaching that?
- [48:23]
John Munsell
Yeah, good question. So there, what we typically do is we want one or more of the executive team to go through our business leaders skills track. So we have a business leader skills track, one for sale, one for marketing, one for legal, blah blah, blah. We got 10 different skills tracks that they go through, but everybody goes through the same foundational training and then they go into their unique sales track. I want a business leader to go through the business leader sales track first and then they would engage us to help them come up with a plan to push it throughout the organization and that they, what, they'll understand it as they go through that. They, they, because it's recorded, they can kind of go at their own leisure so they don't have to go suck out three days of their time and get to a power webinar or a, you know, a workshop. They can go through it at their own pace. And now they, they have a really good understanding. And then they say, okay, now we need your help to establish AI governance. Depending on how big they are. If it's a small company, it's a different, different deal. Then they want to get leadership, maybe the management team trained up on it. You, you have to have internal champions. And the, you know this from being an SEO. When we started our company, the one thing that we noticed is that everybody who, who every business that wanted a website, the IT department handled the website initially.
- [49:49]
Matt Bertram
And you're like, that's.
- [49:51]
John Munsell
Just because it's software doesn't mean it needs to be in it. Right. And gradually it loosened up and said, okay, well we'll let marketing do it. Because now there's WordPress, now there's a UI, but we're still going to control the engine will live. We'll let you play around with the ui. Right.
- [50:09]
Matt Bertram
The security thing, right. And that's a security first. And, and, and so, so we've developed.
- [50:15]
John Munsell
Workarounds to, to, yeah, everybody kind of does happening now, right. In these organizations. The workaround is the worker goes in and logs into their own personal account. And now you have security risks. So we want to, what we want to try to do is create AI governance that has some rules, but a lot of guidelines and we want to have oversight that's not handcuffing but empowering. So I don't really want IT overseeing AI governance, I want them having a voice in it. But what I do want in AI governance is somebody who is an innovator and a power user who really gets the impact because it has to move fast. So you have to have the right person overseeing it. And so we, we teach people what that looks like. I go with that in great detail in the book. All right, so now once we got, we got AI oversight in the right hands with the right mindset, now I can get all the people on board and they're, they actually get excited when they go, oh, this is going to make my job easier. This is so amazing, right? And so now what they've seen is people really get excited about learning it, about executing it. And if you structure it the white right way, they share amongst themselves instead of compete with themselves. They share that knowledge and that expertise. And that's when you start to get this AI first thinking. And again, AI first thinking is not just how do I get it to write a blog post, it is how do I get it to do, how do I think think about going to AI first to get my idea, my, my question answered instead of bugging my boss or instead of, you know, doing my old school research, how do I just ask chat GPT a better question? And then if you're in sales, the stuff that you can do do now with multimodal AI is also insane. You know, you were talking about outbound sales calls. You've go to like sales AI, you can for, I think it's $2,500 a month. You can get an outbound calling AI agent that will replace three outbound appointment setters. And you could use it for setting appointments, or you could use it for just discovering who the decision maker is. You could use it for a lot of things. You could build your own also. But the reporting tools inside of sales AI are pretty, pretty slick. We had him come talk to our mastermind. It's, it's cool stuff. But imagine in your own organization when you create that, that GPT and you can just do this with the GPT, you don't even have to go out and build an agent for this. But you, if you build a GPT that understands all your sales materials and all that stuff, you can now use your phone and have an oral conversation with that GPT as a role playing agent. I mean, you can't quite clone that guy's voice and put it in the GPT yet. If you, if you wanted to spend some money, you, you could build an agent, a cheap way is to just do a chat gpd. But yeah, you can do that. It's, it's amazing.
- [53:31]
Matt Bertram
Well, I, I, I mean that's when I, when I went into sales. Role playing was a huge part of it. Right. And, and I could analyze what you're saying, how your response rates are, what you should use in response to that. I mean I can see so many applications as an adjunct, not just a replacement. With AI so completely. This has just been great. This has been really fascinating. John Ingrained AI. How do people get in touch with you if they want to learn more? Join the community. Get a copy of the book.
- [54:06]
John Munsell
Sure, yeah. I mean you can go to Ingredient and you can join the community. I think all you have to do to really join the community is just request a copy of the book. For now you could, you could join our mastermind group. You can catch me on LinkedIn. I think I'm JW Munsell on LinkedIn. Or go to the other corporate website which is Bazooka Bizzz UK A dot com. That's where we do all the corporate training and stuff. So.
- [54:34]
Matt Bertram
Whoa, I didn't know about this one. What is it called? Bazooka.
- [54:36]
John Munsell
Yeah. B I Z z u k a dot com. Yeah, that's the company that we've had for 20 plus years now.
- [54:47]
Matt Bertram
Very cool. All right, well, I think this was an absolutely fascinating conversation. I usually ask people what's one unknown secret of Internet marketing that do you.
- [55:00]
John Munsell
Want to leave the audience with an unknown secret? Man, I, I, I, I don't have an unknown secret because I haven't figured it out yet. The unknown secret to me is going to be figuring out what's the new SEO to get me at the top of perplexity, you know, without going through all kinds of gymnastics. You know, I've seen other trainers go and, and illustrate how they can key in all this stuff and all of a sudden their website comes up and I'm like, yeah, that's because you wrote seven paragraphs. You know, I want to know how to, how to really build the, the, the fly trap, you know, for the new SEO, which is gonna be all LLM based, but I, I don't have that unlocked yet. I'm worried.
- [55:54]
Matt Bertram
Yeah, no, so I, I, we can talk a little bit more offline. I actually that, that's been where our focus has been. Right. So certainly AI agents are, are a little bit newer, but over the last 18 months that was one of the first things that clients started asking and, and we were curious ourself is okay, there's going to be one answer. Typically now, perplexity. Their model's a little bit different, right? They're pushing out their own affiliate links, which is pretty amazing from a revenue standpoint. And there's definitely some balancing act issues with it that I think people have. But they're monetizing these links, and it's quite dramatic based on the number of searches they have on how many affiliate links they can push out. But I had a client, we've. We get about probably two leads a week that are coming through. They found us through Chat GBT or one of the other language models, and one of our biggest clients, actually, this was. This was probably about a year ago. And, you know, we were. We were working on Chat gbt and we were working on ranking and chatgpt, and. And a lot of the things that we were doing are really just going back to the fundamentals and doing really good SEO. And. And they called. They called in and they said. And, you know, they wanted to get me on the call. And. And so the salesperson brought me in. He said, hey, the only reason I am talking to y'all is I was searching for the top AI SEO company in perplexity. And this was at the time, I'm not sure right now, and they said, you all came up. And. And my first question at the time was like, what is perplexity?
- [57:49]
John Munsell
Unconscious competence is what we call that you don't even know how good you are.
- [57:54]
Matt Bertram
And, and so. So, you know, that, you know, I was being honest. Like, I'm pretty transparent as far as what, what, what, what I know and what I don't know and what we can do. And so we started that conversation, and at a certain point, he goes, I feel like I know you or I've heard your voice before, whatever. And then I was like, well, maybe listen to the podcast. I'll just kind of throw it out there. And he goes, what's it called? And he searches, oh, my gosh, I know you. He's like, you know, and he's like, yeah, I've listened to the podcast. And so that. And then we closed that deal, you know, so there's kind of that expertise, authority, trust, and certainly AI got us in the game, right? But the human element pulled it all the way through to close the deal. And I think there's going to be a lot of that kind of augmented user that's going to be able to be superhuman and be able to leverage a lot of these skill sets. And I think the biggest Thing that's going to slow people back is what you're talking about is the, the corporate governance of really adopting it and, and getting it implemented, because that's what I've seen. The fastest thing to kill a great new idea in a, in a big, in a big company is it's, it's just not getting the buy in, you know.
- [59:20]
John Munsell
Yeah, true. Oh, I will give you one secret. Okay. Now that I think about it, so this is, this is actually the question that I ask all of our prospects at the beginning of the call of the discovery call. And it's. And I even tell them this is a trick question. So I want you to pay attention to how I asked the question And I said 90% of the people get the answer wrong. So let's see how you do. And the question is this. What are the top three problems you solve for your customer? Okay, so I'll repeat it one more time. What are the top three problems you solve for your customer? And what they typically come back with is the top three products they sell to their customer.
- [60:03]
Matt Bertram
Yeah.
- [60:03]
John Munsell
The key is knowing what problem you solve and being able to articulate it as a problem. And when you know how to articulate the problem in your prospect's mind that you solve that unlocks your marketing. That's the secret. If you don't know how to articulate the problem that you're selling a product or you're selling benefits or you're selling features, the minute you understand how to articulate the problem and what's going on in your prospect's mind in terms of pains and frustrations, now all of a sudden you got a shot at a lot of other things. Right? That's, that's my, my top secret for the day.
- [60:44]
Matt Bertram
I love it. I think that that is what I'm seeing too. And this is a good place to end. It is. The AI is only good. As good as the operator and the knowledge in the operator's head on how to get to the right answer and what good looks like based on what you're saying. Until, until you train those very customized agents that know you've. You've inputted all that information that will give you the right answer. Right. But. But to just take the, the, the general AI to ask it, unless you know what, what you're trying to get to and what that good copywriting or whatever it is looks like. You're. You're only as good as the operator. Right?
- [61:33]
John Munsell
Yeah. Yeah. And then the key is to clone your knowledge into the AI and that's where you really are going to crush it. Right. Because when AI can recall your ideas faster than you can, you're dominating.
- [61:48]
Matt Bertram
Yeah. No, I love it. I love it, John. All right, everyone. Hopefully you enjoyed this as well. That's why we do this, to connect with people and bring in great minds that are addressing problems in the industry from a different approach. I don't have all the answers. I'm constantly learning and everyone's going on this journey with me. And this was great. If you are looking to grow your business currently with the largest, most powerful tool on the planet, which is the Internet, and then we can augment AI to that, reach out to EWR for more revenue in your business. We built a proven marketing system that generates you leads online. Until the next time, my name is Matt Bertram. Bye bye for.