Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Episode Title: Stop Chasing Traffic, Start Chasing Revenue with Ian Lurie
Podcast: The Best SEO Podcast: Defining the Future of Search with LLM Visibility™
Host: Matthew Bertram (MatthewBertram.com)
Guest: Ian Lurie (veteran digital marketer, agency founder, mentor)
Date: September 8, 2025

Main Theme:
This episode dives into the rapidly evolving landscape of SEO, AI-driven discoverability, and the critical shift from obsessing over website traffic and rankings to a focus on what really matters: revenue and brand impact. Host Matt Bertram and guest Ian Lurie (pioneer in digital marketing) discuss why old SEO metrics are losing their meaning, how marketers and clients should reframe their thinking, the emergence of large language models (LLMs) in search, the perils of AI-generated content, and actionable strategies for marketers to stay effective—no matter the chaos in the industry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. SEO Chaos & the Accelerating Pace of Change

• The Evolution of SEO Disruption
  • Ian highlights the continuous disruption in marketing: from traditional to digital, clicks going away, to the rise of AI and LLMs.

    "Now we've got AI, which is disrupting the disruption that clicks were going away. So it never really stops, and I enjoy it." (Ian, 01:29)

• The Overwhelm Facing Marketers
  • Matt and Ian acknowledge the whirlwind of SEO changes and the stress it causes for practitioners and clients.

    "SEO is not just a moving target... it's moving at lightning speed. Every week it's like new stuff comes out and it's honestly a little bit overwhelming." (Matt, 00:59)

2. The Traffic vs. Revenue Paradigm Shift

• Challenging Old Metrics
  • Ian pushes for a business-first perspective—traffic and rankings are not ends in themselves.

    "We've been trained to equate traffic with money. And I don't know that that was ever true... What's happening to the bottom line?" (Ian, 04:13)
    "Don't fire your SEO because your traffic is dropping. Right? Fire... if your revenue's dropping." (Ian, 06:54)

• On Holdout Testing
  • Both agree that “holdout testing” (turning off channels like SEO) is risky and seldom advisable, especially with modern algorithms and data uncertainty.
  • Matt’s experience: drastic changes to campaigns often break machine learning targeting, especially in Google Ads.

    "Once you turn on ads, like, don't turn them off... don't turn them down by more than 25% because it will collapse some of the targeting." (Matt, 08:01)

3. Attribution, KPIs, and Measuring the Right Things

• The Collapse of Attribution

  • With the decline of keyword data, privacy changes, direct traffic inflation, and AI features in SERPs, it's become nearly impossible to attribute every sale to a specific channel.

• Lift-Based Measurement & KPIs

  • Ian champions “lift-based” attribution: look at overall business performance and match inflection points with major search/AI wins.

    "Being able to look and say, here's when our rankings improved, or here is when ChatGPT started naming us as one of the top tools for X or Y... and then look at this, a week later, revenue went up." (Ian, 10:58)

  • Practical tools: Google Analytics (for traffic), business financials (for revenue), rank trackers (SEMrush, Ahrefs, Moz), Gumshoe for AI mentions.

    “You need Google Analytics, some kind of rankings and share of voice measurement... and then whatever the business earnings are.” (Ian, 12:10)

• Client & Team Education

  • Educating both clients and internal teams: it’s not about rankings or even traffic if revenue isn’t moving.

    "You do still need your numbers... but you need to start speaking in terms of revenue, not rankings." (Matt, 09:34)

4. Communicating Uncertainty & Imperfect Data

• Personalization Problems
  • Clients often question SEO/tool data after searching for themselves and seeing different results due to personalized search.

    “There's this constant education with a client and also team to make sure we're looking at the right things.” (Matt, 09:34)

  • Ian’s transparent approach: explain user neutrality, the limitations of all tracking tools, and that perfect numbers are unattainable.

    “Rankings vary based on human and location, and there's nothing you can do about that. Even an incognito session. What I'm using is tracking the most user neutral rankings possible.” (Ian, 19:18)

5. When Rankings ≠ Revenue: Diagnosing Website Issues

• Conversion Overhaul
  • Sometimes, rankings and traffic are up but revenue isn’t. This means shifting focus to conversion rate optimization, site experience, brand, and differentiating through content.

    “If their traffic's up, you got them ranking for the right terms. The terms make general sense to you? Yeah. Then it's about the site. Let's take a look at how we get more of those people on your site converting.” (Ian, 23:30)

6. AI, Content, and Brand in the New Landscape

• AI is a Tool—Not a Savior
  • Ian uses AI to automate reporting and analysis, but warns against over-reliance for content creation.

    "Its ability to automate certain things ... Like... it gives me a quick summary, says, here's according to your priorities. These are urgent." (Ian, 28:28)

• The Dangers of Average Content
  • AI content is “average,” and if everyone generates the average, no one stands out.

    "AI, when you ask [it] to generate content, it's generating it based on an average. So that means any content you have AI generated is average." (Ian, 28:28)

  • Marketers must maintain creative, human input—use AI to assist, not replace.

    “You should build an AI sandwich on human bread.” (Ian, 34:22)

7. The Return of Core Marketing & Brand Principles

• Building Brand—Essential for Survival
  • Brand is becoming even more critical—especially for small businesses facing an AI- and agent-dominated landscape.

    “We are moving into a world where brand is even more important, which is going to make it very difficult for smaller businesses...” (Ian, 38:22)

• Agency AI and the Third-Hand Internet
  • Predicts rise of “agentic AI,” intermediaries influencing what users see; marketers must adapt to content being interpreted and delivered algorithmically.

    "Businesses do need to think about a time when their... information is being delivered to people second and third hand." (Ian, 38:22)

8. Actionable Frameworks for the Future

• Two Marketing Rules for Small Brands
  1. Maximize Return on Time Invested:
     > "When clients interact with you... execute really well. Make sure you're delivering exactly what they need when they need it." (Ian, 43:29)
  2. Teach the Shit Out of Everything:
     > "If you teach the shit out of everything... you are giving your customers more information and more support as they are deciding what to buy and how..." (Ian, 43:29)
  • Don’t gatekeep answers; make help and expertise easy to find across all channels. This both builds trust and increases conversion.
• Back to Human-Centric Marketing

  “AI can't generate information and stories the way we need to… AI can organize facts... but it can't do the actual storytelling part.” (Ian, 37:48)

  • Even in AI-driven or zero-click landscapes, winning brands will teach, guide, and support users every step of the way.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Navigating Chaos:

  “It's chaos, and I love the chaos... I do know how crazy and stressful it is. But it's a really cool challenge that I think we're all working with.”
  — Ian Lurie, 01:29

• On Attribution Fatigue:

  "First Google took away Keyword tracking... Then browser security took away some referrer tracking... Now you've got SERP features and AI overviews and other things again, taking away those clicks."
  — Ian Lurie, 04:13

• On AI Content:

  “Any content you have AI generated is average. And people are generally using AI to generate content because they feel like they don't have time... If you don't have time to do it and feel like it's exceptional, why should your audience spend any time reading it?”
  — Ian Lurie, 28:28

• On Teaching as a Brand Differentiator:

  “You gotta teach the shit out of everything... If you do those things right, you've got one up on Amazon, you've got one up on Target.”
  — Ian Lurie, 43:29

• On the Real Secret:

  “Take... one question all your customers ask... and see whether you provide them that answer in a way that they can get it even if you're not present... Do that a few times and see what that does for your business.”
  — Ian Lurie, 47:16

• On Staying Sane in SEO:

  “Things are always changing... marketing is very much in flux... Rely on your experts, rely on your expertise and stick to those basic principles that make marketing work and you will come out okay on the other side.”
  — Ian Lurie, 46:25

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Introduction and SEO industry chaos | 00:59–02:26 | | Should clients chase traffic, revenue, or both? | 03:07–06:54 | | The futility of holdout testing for SEO | 06:54–09:07 | | Training teams and clients on revenue-centric measurement | 09:34–12:04 | | Tools and KPIs for today's attribution-challenged landscape | 12:04–14:34 | | Explaining personalized search & tool discrepancies to clients| 14:34–19:18 | | Diagnosing when rankings aren’t leading to revenue | 19:18–23:30 | | The role—and risks—of AI in content & marketing | 28:28–31:42 | | Narrative, storytelling, and the limits of AI | 34:18–37:48 | | Predictions: agentic AI, brand imperative, vanishing vanity metrics | 38:22–42:58 | | Framework: Maximize Return on Time, Teach Everything | 43:29–46:07 | | Closing encouragement and “teaching” as the secret tactic | 46:25–47:49 |

Conclusion

Bottom line:
Stop obsessing over traffic and rankings. In the new era shaped by AI, LLMs, and zero-click SERPs, only those marketers and brands who anchor on business results, relentless client/stakeholder education, human creativity, and the willingness to “teach the shit out of everything” will survive and thrive. Use AI as an assistant—but keep your brand, narrative, and customer experience human, memorable, and uniquely valuable.

To connect with Ian Lurie:

"Track me down on LinkedIn... IAN LURIE. I think there’s only like six of us on LinkedIn. You can always send me a message." (Ian, 47:59)