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The New SEO Playbook: Winning in a World of AI Overviews and Vanishing Clicks feat. Ray Grieselhuber

The Best SEO Podcast: Defining the Future of Search with LLM Visibility™

Published: Mon Aug 04 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New SEO Playbook: Winning in a World of AI Overviews and Vanishing Clicks feat. Ray Grieselhuber

Podcast Information:

  • Title: The Best SEO Podcast: Unlocking the Unknown Secrets of AI, Search Rankings & Digital Marketing
  • Host: Matt Bertram (MatthewBertram.com)
  • Episode Title: The New SEO Playbook: Winning in a World of AI Overviews and Vanishing Clicks feat. Ray Grieselhuber
  • Release Date: August 4, 2025

Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Best SEO Podcast, host Matt Bertram welcomes SEO expert Ray Grieselhuber to discuss the evolving landscape of Search Engine Optimization (SEO) in the era of Artificial Intelligence (AI). The conversation delves into how AI-driven tools and changing user behaviors are reshaping SEO strategies, the challenges of diminishing click-through rates, and the emergence of new metrics and tools essential for modern digital marketing.

Impact of AI on SEO and Search Traffic

Key Discussion Points:

  • Diverging Approaches to AI in SEO: Ray highlights the two prevailing camps in the industry regarding AI's impact on SEO—those who view AI as a threat leading to reduced traffic and those who see it as an opportunity for growth.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (00:57): "Obviously AI is the big topic that, you know, everyone wants to know, AI, is my website dead? Is traffic gone forever?"

  • AI Overviews versus Traditional Search: Matt introduces the concept of AI overviews (AIO views) and zero-click searches, noting a significant drop in traditional search traffic due to AI-driven summaries.

    Notable Quote:

    Matt (03:59): "AI overviews are just kind of stemming the tide of people kind of going across the river because LLMs are doing all the research for you."

  • User Behavior Shifts: Ray explains that traditional traffic metrics may no longer accurately reflect user engagement, as AI interactions often result in "zero-click" scenarios where users obtain answers without visiting websites.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (04:58): "There's a whole concept of zero click and there's multiple searches and ongoing conversations and entirely different types of behavior patterns that are emerging."

Measuring Success in the New SEO Landscape

Key Discussion Points:

  • Reevaluating Metrics: The conversation emphasizes the need to move beyond traditional traffic metrics to more meaningful KPIs that directly contribute to revenue.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (07:57): "There is a renewed simplification on looking at what is going to contribute to revenue."

  • Media Mix Modeling (MMM): Ray introduces MMM as a method to attribute revenue directly to spend across different channels, moving away from complex attribution models.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (07:57): "It's a return on spend model. And it basically says we're not going to even think about things like attribution modeling."

  • Intent-Based Traffic Optimization: Matt discusses the importance of enhancing website conversion capabilities to capitalize on high-intent traffic driven by AI overviews.

    Notable Quote:

    Matt (06:35): "It's like if someone comes to your website, they're like walking on a car lot, they are ready to buy a car. So it's your job to like sell them or not."

Tools and Strategies for Modern SEO

Key Discussion Points:

  • Advanced SEO Tools: Ray talks about Demand Sphere’s tools that go beyond traditional rank tracking to offer comprehensive SERP analytics, integrating data from multiple sources like GA4 and Search Console.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (43:45): "We are capturing the shape of the SERP visually and showing what is impacting user behavior."

  • Topical Authority and Content Clustering: The importance of building semantic topical authority is emphasized, ensuring that content is closely related and supports the site’s core topics to enhance visibility.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (19:27): "Google is looking at what is your set of topics that you're good at talking about. If you are creating content that is way outside of that, it's going to take time to build up that semantic authority."

  • Crawl Budget Optimization: For large websites, Ray advises reducing unnecessary URLs to ensure that Google efficiently indexes valuable content, thereby improving overall site performance.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (25:03): "Reducing the URL count to the things that are going to be actually adding value to your potential customers is a thing."

Challenges and Opportunities with LLMs and AI Search

Key Discussion Points:

  • Behavior of Large Language Models (LLMs): Ray explains how LLMs like ChatGPT and Google's Gemini utilize live retrieval and grounding to provide up-to-date information, altering how search results are delivered and consumed.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (29:52): "Retrieval augmented generation is basically the idea that the model itself is out of date for new things but it does have the ability to curate and filter through information faster than most people can."

  • Personalization and Customization: The episode discusses the increasing personalization in search results based on user history and interactions with LLMs, making it crucial for brands to deeply understand their target audience.

    Notable Quote:

    Matt (35:01): "Well, the personalization, like how you know, based upon someone's past histories and the things that they've said to the LLM, it's going to customize an answer to you."

  • Unified Data Integration: Ray emphasizes the importance of integrating various data sources (CRM, Zendesk, reviews) into SEO strategies to create a comprehensive understanding of the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP).

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (36:35): "What are the sources of your ICP data and how are you going to integrate those back into your search campaigns, your search operations?"

Demand Sphere’s Unique Approach

Key Discussion Points:

  • Comprehensive SERP Analytics: Demand Sphere distinguishes itself by providing detailed SERP analytics that account for various SERP features and their impact on user behavior, moving beyond mere rank tracking.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (43:45): "We spend a lot of our time educating our market and our users about how to really take advantage of a lot of that interchange that's happening."

  • Unified View Across Data Sources: The platform integrates data from multiple analytics tools to offer a unified view, enabling more informed SEO strategies.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (43:45): "We build a unified view across disparate data sources like GA4 and Search Console, unlocking a lot of opportunities for understanding your market much better."

  • Focus on Revenue-Driven Metrics: Demand Sphere prioritizes metrics that directly influence revenue, aligning SEO efforts with business outcomes.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (07:57): "The main takeaway for all of this is that there is a renewed simplification on looking at what is going to contribute to revenue."

Challenges Faced by Businesses

Key Discussion Points:

  • Blocking AI Bots: Many businesses are unknowingly blocking AI bots, limiting their visibility and content indexing, which Ray describes as a significant oversight.

    Notable Quote:

    Ray (39:45): "If you are blocking these bots, all of these ChatGPT and everybody else, they're already indexing Google anyway, so they're getting your content one way or another."

  • Crawl Budget Mismanagement: Large websites often waste crawl budget on low-value URLs, necessitating a strategic pruning of content to enhance SEO performance.

    Notable Quote:

    Matt (24:35): "Google really does not want to be indexing and crawling nearly as much as they were before."

  • Attribution Difficulties: Traditional attribution models fall short in the AI-driven search environment, making it challenging to link specific SEO efforts to revenue outcomes.

    Notable Quote:

    Matt (13:09): "You can't really measure this stuff... there's a lot of guessing that goes on."

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

As AI continues to transform the SEO landscape, businesses must adapt by embracing new strategies and tools that prioritize revenue-driven metrics, semantic topical authority, and comprehensive data integration. Ray Grieselhuber emphasizes the importance of understanding AI-driven user behaviors and leveraging advanced SERP analytics to maintain competitive visibility. Additionally, the integration of AI and search necessitates a shift in how success is measured, moving away from traditional traffic metrics to more nuanced, revenue-focused KPIs.

Final Takeaway:

Ray (49:39): "Be as remarkable as you can be. Do things that are generating that light of remarkability and you'll get the attention that you need."

For businesses aiming to thrive in this AI-driven era, focusing on creating remarkable, high-quality content and optimizing for user intent will be crucial in navigating the challenges and leveraging the opportunities presented by evolving search technologies.

Connect with Ray Grieselhuber:

This summary encapsulates the key insights and discussions from the podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners seeking to understand the current and future state of SEO in an AI-dominated digital marketing landscape.

No transcript available.