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Unlocking Transformative Rebranding: Strategies and Trends with Jim Heininger
00:36:01
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- [00:15]
Matthew Bertram
Howdy. Welcome back to another fun filled episode of the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. I am your host, Matthew Bertram. As you can see, if you're watching this on YouTube, Matthew Bertram.com is. I just bought my domain. I've been building out my site. Go check it out. Tell me how bad it is. I would appreciate any feedback. And with that being said, I have a great guest for you because, well, rebranding and branding is critically important. I shared on a previous podcast that I canceled out of an equity deal that I was getting involved in because the owner didn't believe in the power branding. And I just felt like I was operating on a different wavelength and didn't feel that it was a good relationship. Even though I thought the deal was good, I felt like we were going to run into trouble. And I feel like anytime you get involved with business, you got to be on the same page because when you're doing equity, you know, you're in business together. It's not someone's paying you for marketing. And, and so, so that happened and I. I thought it'd be good, buddy. Jim. Jim. I say your name wrong, how do you say your last name? I don't even want to. I don't want to slaughter it. I apologize.
- [01:27]
Jim Heininger
Heininger.
- [01:28]
Matthew Bertram
Heininger. He is known as the rebrand man and with rebranding experts. And he has worked with a long list of impressive companies, some of the ones you might have heard of. Blue cross, Blue Shield, McDonald's. Wendy, sounds like you've done some stuff with Ogilvy. Certainly a student of everything that he did. And I believe that traditional space has started to be cannibalized by the digital space. And I really wanted to get you on and talk through. As a lot of listeners know, our agency went through a rebrand recently. From E. Web Results to EWR Digital. We did the KFC thing as well as I'm about to rebrand this podcast. And so I thought it was good timing personally to have you on and to review your methodology. And I think that there are a lot of businesses out there with the way the economy is trying to figure out, how can I position myself in the space? How can I cut through the noise with my messaging, my unique selling proposition? How do I compete? And the answer is not always to just go dump a bunch of money and paid ads. Okay, that's not always the answer. And it has to be part of a broader strategy. And it really starts with how you're communicating your value proposition. Right. And so, Jim, thank you so Much for coming on. If there's anything more you would like to share to credentialize yourself with your background, it's super impressive. I would love to kind of set, set the table for the conversation.
- [03:18]
Jim Heininger
Oh, thank you, Matthew. I lead the rebranding experts. We've been in business about eight years now and focus solely on rebranding organizations. That's all we do. And we developed a methodology that you talked about that's kind of the end to end process for how an organization should do it successfully. So that's my background.
- [03:41]
Matthew Bertram
Awesome. So let, let's cater this conversation. Maybe we can even break it into two parts. We can say one part specifically talking to, let's say small business owners or even marketers working with small businesses, because sometimes they're running campaigns or they're doing SEO or they're doing. Well, social media and, and digital PR is quite big. But man, you got, you got to have your, your branding on point. Okay. You gotta have your target Persona. You need to speak, your messaging needs to be there. There's a lot of things that go into that. And then maybe talk to maybe bigger organizations. They could be direct to consumer or even B2B organizations. A lot of people that have started to listen to me are in a B2B setting and they're two different animals. And bigger companies can do more things than smaller companies. Right. And I think a lot of times the smaller companies say, we don't have the money for a rebrand. Why should we rebrand? You know, what, what, what should we do? So let's start the conversation with Lowell. Who should be rebrand and why?
- [04:51]
Jim Heininger
Yeah, so good place to start. And I'm actually even going to back it up a little bit just to kind of make sure I have my perspective of what a, what a brand and what a rebrand is. So, you know, people, people oftentimes think that their brand is just their name and their logo and that, that's, that represents them out in the, in the business world. It's so much more than that. You know, your brand is the total collection of experiences that someone has with your organization. So it, it has to do with, you know, when they pick up the phone and call customer service, how they're treated when they see your, your product or your service out in the market. How does it feel to them? And so we look at it from that very kind of broader perspective of all those pieces need to be put together to really create a brand in people's minds. And remember, the brand is up in their Minds, it's how they perceive you. But you can influence it through all the marketing that we're talking about. So if you think about what is a rebrand, a rebrand is standing up an entirely new brand. It's, it's, it's, you know, orchestrating an overhaul of what your brand is out in the marketplace and everything from that name and that logo to, you know, to the customer service approach, you know, how people are treated, how do you, how do you deliver on the online experience?
- [06:16]
Matthew Bertram
How does it make them feel? Right? People buy based on emotions. People associate with brands. People connect and they buy because of the way it makes them feel. Right. I think that's really what it comes down to.
- [06:29]
Jim Heininger
Absolutely. So then now to the question of why would somebody rebrand? We kind of look at it as there's two buckets of reasons that you would rebrand. Oftentimes you need to rebrand. You've acquired a company, you've gone through an acquisition, you're merging two companies or you've run into issues that could be kind of crisis related, that you're needing to leave that old brand behind and start a new one. So those are kind of structural reasons why you would rebrand. The other bucket is opportunity. And that is that you are running into barriers to growth, for example, and need to reposition yourself out in the marketplace in a way that's going to attract the kind of customers that you want. You're introducing a new product or service that greatly opens up new markets for you. Maybe you're going into new geographic markets, but it's a very strategic growth kind of opportunity that you're wanting to rebrand the organization to enable you to go out, face forward into the future and be able to grow your business in the way you want it to. So need or opportunity are really the two reasons people rebrand.
- [07:36]
Matthew Bertram
I love that. I think that a perfect example of maybe someone listening is I want to get more enterprise level clients and I'm currently working with, you know, homeowners if, if they're in a service based industry or like small businesses as their client and they position themselves in a way where they service that category and they're known for that and, and like, how much can you pour in to change the conversation to inch towards what you're trying to do versus how about we create a new brand to target that, that can create that message from the beginning of what, what we need to do and where we need to go. And I like the things that you said. I'm dealing with a Couple companies that just made an acquisition, right. And they're like, okay, we have different brands. Do we, do we merge them? Do we keep them separate? Do we create a whole new brand? Like, what are, what are we doing? How, how do we approach. It's really like a, almost not, not a full go to market strategy, but it's a go to market strategy of how, you know, PE people are going to view us and how we want to be viewed and, and what is, what is our value proposition to, to get that message tight and, and aligned?
- [08:57]
Jim Heininger
Well, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. We, you know, there, you, you often find in smaller companies or companies where there was an entrepreneurial founding of it that they didn't spend as much time on developing their brand as they did building the business basics so that they could scale it. And now they're several years into operation and they look back at that brand and say, okay, that really is not representing us well. Or we've grown and we're offering more services or products than what that original name that we came up with defined. That's when you need to rebrand. That's when you need to reposition yourself in the marketplace.
- [09:35]
Matthew Bertram
Man, I hear this in terms a lot with clients that start looking at their website. Hey, I need a new website. It was built five years ago, whatever. And all the case studies or all the information on it's just old. It's not who they are anymore. The website should be constantly maintained and updated and revalued when you're doing that. So I hear it a lot in that context. Now, just one more kind of definitional thing before we get into it is a brand refresh, right. Is also another thing that people talk about a lot. Where is the line between a brand refresh and a rebrand?
- [10:13]
Jim Heininger
And I'm even going to put into the definition there, repositioning, because that's kind of in the middle of those two. A brand refreshes. We view that as kind of a facelift. It's a visual makeover of the company that you would use in your marketing efforts. It's perhaps a new logo, a new color palette, maybe some new language that you're going to use to go out and position yourself. When Pepsi puts a new, you know, a logo on their can, that's a refresh. That's not a rebrand. That's a refresh because it's. The brand is still the same. It's just the visual presentation of it that's going to be different. Now in the middle, you've got repositioning which kind of goes to that point of expanding your marketplace. New customer base, you know, that you're wanting to market to in a way that you haven't in the past. And you're needing to reposition your company to make it fit their needs or to show how you can meet their needs. But it doesn't change the name of the company and it doesn't change the DNA of the company. It's pretty much the same company, but you're just kind of repositioning yourself to a new or broader audience. A rebrand is all those things pulled together where you are actually going to go in and change the DNA of your organization. You're really, you're going to put a new name out there, leave, leave the past behind and do all that repositioning and refresh as part of it. So it's the comprehensive overhaul of your brand to be able to go into the future in a new way.
- [11:45]
Matthew Bertram
Now, rebrands, and we've gone through one that I've been through internally here is a lot of work. Okay, so what are the things that someone needs to consider if they're listening to this, this show and say, okay, like maybe I need a rebrand. Like, how should they be looking at it? And then also coupled with that, I think it's really important for you to talk about some of the greatest challenges, because I don't think now you need to have an expert. I think you need to have a facilitator and someone guiding you, like yourself. But, man, like, it's not easy. It's a lot of work depending on where the layers are and make sure that what you're doing, where you're going to end up, you need to make sure that's aligned on the beginning, and that's where you need the most help. Because if you don't know what you want to be when your brand grows up or whatever, then you could get into a lot of trouble and you could do a lot of work, and that work could be put somewhere else or doing something more productive for the company. So you got to make sure that this is the right fit for you. And then you need to make sure you're aligned with what your goals are. And also you need to have somebody that's done it before that keeps you out of the ditch.
- [13:01]
Jim Heininger
Yeah, I greatly appreciate those that support. So we. And. And the very first question that we start out with in any engagement is, why? Why are we doing this? What are we hoping to achieve? Because that becomes your reason for as you progress down the journey to keep reminding people and informing people is why you're doing this rebrand. It needs to be super clear. We, we break the methodology up into about four different parts. And the first is really discovering what that new brand is going to be. And so, based upon your research, based upon your understanding of stakeholders and how they perceive the company, your vision, your future of where you're wanting to go and how you're wanting to expand the business, we, we articulate that new brand so that articulation is the first step to make sure that everyone is comfortable and aligned behind that, especially leadership, because they're going to have to embody that new brand. As you go down this journey a little bit further, then you've got that whole kind of alignment piece behind it where you're making sure that your internal organization is in support of what that new brand is and making sure that you, you know, every cusp, every employee can tell the new story, that they know how to represent the new brand. That HR is brought into the equation to make sure that their whole, you know, recruiting of people is for the, is for the new brand and that their performance management of people supports that new brand. So making sure all those pieces are in place while you're doing the update of the brand behind the scenes. So all your, your website, all your marketing materials, your signage, if you're, if you have, you know, locations out in the public uniforms, you know, a variety of different materials and pieces that need to be updated so that when you go to launch that new brand and activate it in the marketplace, everything looks seamless and that you present it in one single, you know, go to market day or every launch, the new brand, customers see it unveiled, the new website goes live. The new behaviors that your employees are going to display, you know, are activated on that particular day. And that, that kind of sequencing of it, of making sure that you've got every step checked off before you go to go to market with it, is critically important. What are some of the biggest challenges to your questions? Well, first of all, it's getting leadership support and making sure leadership is aligned behind it. Because if they're not in deciding what that new brand is, they're going to keep questioning it. And you want them to have ownership of it from the start and have a piece and stake in it so that they then can focus their energies on encouraging employees and conveying it to customers when the time is right. Most people don't understand the complexity of it, which is why we built this methodology that has all these different steps that we follow in it to make sure it's done properly. You know, sometimes we get clients that will come in and want to jump to, you know, further down the road, and we say, we're not doing that. You know, we're going to go back and do it right. That's why you came to us is, you know, because we're experienced in this, we're going to do it right so that you don't find yourself later having holes or gaps in this new brand and not being able to deliver it successfully. Another big challenge is it costs money to do this, you know, and there's our costs in the whole process. But then if you're an organization that has locations across the country, you've got employees across the country, all those require more costs. So if it's signage in those restaurants or in those real estate offices that you own, those all need to be updated. That takes time, that takes money to do that. Uniforms for people, if you have vehicles out there, if you're an airline rebranding, every plane has to be repainted. So you've got to account for that in your overall timeline and in your cost and your investment in the whole effort. So those tend to be the biggest challenges is leadership, support, time, energy because of the complexity of it and then the costs.
- [17:13]
Matthew Bertram
So question for you on the quantitative side, okay, like, you talked about some, some big brands and you've worked with some big brands, like when they're thinking about doing a rebrand and you're talking about, okay, airline, okay, I mean, like, that's a lot of assets that have to be repainted or color scheme change or whatever. When they're doing like a cash outlay, right. Of like, what this is going to cost versus the market opportunity of what they're going after. How, how are they figuring it out and how is it getting past, like the financial team, like, where. What do those models look like to project that, to say, this should bring us in X amount if we do all this, like. Or can you just speak to that in some way? Because I'm, I'm just curious how those conversations are going. Yeah.
- [18:06]
Jim Heininger
Which is why you don't see major companies with a lot of trucks on the road or planes on the road or, you know, locations rebranding that frequently. Because you, if you do it right, it should last you a period of time and, and you don't want to encounter those kind of costs if it's not necessary. So, you know, a lot of those kind of things can be amortized which is what makes the, the financial people happy. If it's any kind of hard asset that's got a, you know, need needs to be remade. But it goes back to that original question of why are we doing this? And making sure the financial people are in on that discussion so that they see what, you know, that there's an overriding rationale for doing this that then they can base their financial projections on and their handling of the costs. If that CFO isn't involved in those original discussions, they are going to say, wait a second, why are we spending so much money on this? And create bumps in the road that you don't want. So getting leadership involved from the beginning is critical.
- [19:12]
Matthew Bertram
Yeah. You know, at the smaller companies, I can see, you know, there might be a limited number of stakeholders that are making that decision. And you know what I see on the campaign side of things? Right? Because like, a campaign could be like a smaller rebrand or a messaging and targeting that you're testing out. Man, I see a lot of times there's campaigns out there that are absolutely working fantastic, right? Based on the sales cycle, based on bringing on new customers, like, it's working. And then, you know what, leadership's just like, we need something new, we need something fresh. I am sick of looking at it. And, and I, I think that, you know, that that's where data comes in and going back to like, okay, why are we trying to do this? What are we trying to do this? And getting that quantitative piece to focus on, okay, like, here's the new market. If we're, if we go into this market and we position ourself this way and we run these ads and we can predict out kind of what that's going to look like to capture that revenue, then you have a strong business case that you can hand to somebody. I wanted to see if you'd be willing to share any of the case studies for some of these bigger brands of things that you've done for them and kind of talk through it, like presenting the case study of, like, what the problem was. You know, why, hey, branding, we thought to do this. You know, what you looked at what you did and like, the results. I don't know if there's any you can hear. I'd love to go through some of that so people can kind of see the methodology and how it works.
- [20:50]
Jim Heininger
Right. So, you know, one project that's currently in process that kind of really demonstrates why a company would rebrand is a credit union. You know, if you think of credit unions, they Were all originally named for whatever employee group that they supported, the teachers or the employees of a particular business in a town and they established that and they're named after that. Well, that's not going to attract any new customers that don't work for that company. So as they try to serve more, you know, offer more financial services to a broader group or they're wanting to expand into different geographics, they need a new name and they need an orientation of their service and their products that meet the needs of all your banking type customers as opposed to just the ones of that particular employer that started them. So that's an example of one that we think people can clearly understand. Another one, you know, is we had a merger of three companies that were all in the hospitality space. So they serviced kind of high end luxury hotels with things like linens and restaurant supplies and so forth and you know, things that you would find in your room at a luxury hotel. Three of them merged together. It was private equity, you know, and they clearly had a strategy of wanting to add more companies to this portfolio over time that all serve the same customer base. And so we, you know, we were stuck with, you know, three names that kind of just were very specific to what those companies did. Couldn't broaden them out, couldn't give them any more elasticity that was needed to serve that role. So we went back to a real naming process and we found what was consistent across the way these three companies worked. And it was all that they really, they treated their customers, the high end hotels as almost their concierge kind of service in terms of what they needed to make their customers feel the best the guests at the hotel. So we named that particular company one concierge and that gave that large umbrella for the private equity company to add other businesses underneath. It was very much concierge. Shortening the word concierge to concierge and make and being number one just really kind of position them in the marketplace that all their customers were like delighted. Thought it was great, like the simplicity of it. And then we were able to go out and market them as in a new way that than what they had done in the past as being a provider to all the hotel needs that you've got.
- [23:35]
Matthew Bertram
Yeah, I think that that example is. Is really highlights the fact that why you should do where you should combine versus just create multiple different brands. Right. For different segments. When you, when you have that larger opportunity and, and really you're merging those companies because there's issues with merger and acquisitions anyway.
- [23:59]
Jim Heininger
Yeah.
- [24:00]
Matthew Bertram
Company Culture and stuff like that. And I would even, I would just.
- [24:05]
Jim Heininger
Throw into it, just add to it what, what's important about that particular example too was that you had, you had legacy employees of three different companies that were, you know, all kind of vying for wanting their name to be the brand that was, but coming out with a new name that was neutral, you know, and nobody, you, nobody had that kind of ownership claim to it. We were able to better persuade those long term legacy employees that this was the good for all and that this was, you know, the way that we wanted to go forward to market that was going to benefit them better. And so it was able, it gave us that internal kind of communications and engagement plan that we were able to get everybody on board before we went to market with it. So a good way too of realizing, you know, one of the challenges in a rebrand is your employees have to be a part of it. And if you're changing a name for somebody that you know, and you've worked, somebody's worked there 40 years, they suddenly feel like, well, what, what Was all that 40 years for? What kind of equity have I built? It's now gone because you just changed the name. And so I gotta be connected to that new brand if I'm gonna continue to work hard for it. So shows you yet another challenge in rebranding that has to be addressed.
- [25:17]
Matthew Bertram
So you're getting the buy in, you're getting their input. The company culture is so critically important. I was even thinking management of assets. Right. And I think a lot of people don't think about the cost savings. Right. If you're managing three different websites, three different set of campaigns, all the different social media accounts associated with it, all the pr, like it's, you know, agencies have processes and abilities to manage multiple accounts, but that can never compete with a singular focus. Right. And having some, something internal and you can bring everybody together, focus on one message, one set of platforms, one set of campaigns, like, it simplifies the process. So there's even cost savings when you look at it from that standpoint. Because if they just kept buying companies and then every single. I did this project for a candy company that bought their candy division from Nestle and they had like 12 or 14 different brands, different agencies, different platforms, different everything, Right, right. And so it's like the shape of all these different accounts based on whatever that business did previously is all this legacy stuff that many times you got one corporate person or two or three corporate people that are like, all right, here's 16 different brands to manage all of them. And here's a list of all the different agencies, the different logins to the websites, the different social media. Like, it becomes a, you know, a huge task, a herculean task to be able to manage that. Man, it makes perfect sense. Hey, we're going to keep adding companies to this. We need something that's inclusive of all of this. And then. And then our team, we can streamline it and be super effective on getting our messaging correct and reaching the right people. So I love that.
- [27:16]
Jim Heininger
Yep.
- [27:18]
Matthew Bertram
Okay, so we touched on this a little bit. Okay, we touched on this a little bit. The two things that I do want to cover, if we still have time, are, let's talk a little bit more. Who starts the process of the rebrand? Okay, like, is it. Is it the CEO? Is it the C suite? Is it the marketing director? Is it the sales director? Like, how does the coalescence of the stakeholders that are involved in it decide that that's coming from? Or is it messages from the employees? Is it investors? Like, what are you seeing when people are like, yeah, they're calling you? We need a rebrand? Like, how did that conversation start? I'm just curious.
- [27:58]
Jim Heininger
Well, and it's interesting because when we get the initial outreach for companies, it's usually in a very stealth manner. They've been thinking about this, and they've maybe looked at their current agency and, you know, to evaluate whether they have the capabilities to do this. They know that it's a much bigger lift than just changing your name and logo, you know, and they want to make sure that they're doing it right. It's usually the CEO that reaches out first to us and says, I want to rebrand my company. I understand that, you know, that I've got challenges that I can't overcome with their current brand. I've got bold ambitions that I want to achieve, and I know my brand is what needs to be fixed. And so we usually get it from the very top of the house. Sometimes it will be a marketing person that will reach out. But they have also already had those C suite conversations, and they're just representing it. But there's not a lot of convincing that we have to do. It's the right thing. We just want to make sure they understand what a rebrand entails. That's where we focus kind of our education efforts.
- [29:05]
Matthew Bertram
Yeah. And then the last question I really was curious about is, what are the trends that you're seeing happening with rebranding of companies? Like, you saw the meta Facebook, right. Which I think that there. I know what's kind of going on with the tech brands. For the most part. I follow that pretty closely. But I'm just curious, just like general trends and rebranding, you know, shortening of names. I've seen it with some oil companies. They've changed their name or there's mergers. Just, you know, you, you, you have a broad perspective of kind of what's happening, what are the things that you're seeing as it relates to that. And then if you could couple that at the end with maybe any trends that you're seeing on brand promotion, brand building as it involves with digital marketing, we have a lot of listeners that are very strong digital marketers or work with a lot of different companies to try to get them into the right mindset of what they should be looking at, what they're seeing from your perspective.
- [30:11]
Jim Heininger
So some of the different trends. And first of all, one of the things I always kind of start with is the misuse of the term rebranding. You know, you, you always see people saying, oh, we're rebranding. Well, they just changed slightly their logo or something like that, refreshed it. That's not a rebrand. You know, they use the term rebrand because it attracts more attention than to say you refreshed it. So that's one of the trends that we wish would stop. You know, you. This time of year, you always see a lot of higher education institutions rebranding. You know, University of Tampa that went by Utah just said, we're going to change our brand and make it Utampa now. Because UT can be confused with Texas.
- [30:56]
Matthew Bertram
I love southwest Texas to Texas State. Okay. I mean, like, you don't want to be a directional school, I think is kind of the trend. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:04]
Jim Heininger
So you see a lot of those. And, you know, right now, just because of timing and the fall start of school season and so forth, one of the biggest trends is the shortening of names. You know, it's realizing that people, when they originally created their brand, added so much descriptive language to it that, you know, to kind of establish themselves in, in their market and they don't need that anymore, and they're able to shed that now. Campbell Soup is just the latest example of that. They're dropping Soup from their formal name and they're just going to be Campbell's and it. And it's a way of not, not letting your name define you too tightly, but, but you simplifying it so you can broaden out and you can be appreciated for more things. Dunkin Donuts did the same things. You know, we still are kind of, you know, puzzled a little bit by why Weight Watchers went to WW several years ago and then changed back to Weight Watchers. They, they're now using Weight Watchers. You don't see WW anymore. It was just kind of a odd rebrand, I don't think. It wasn't in consumers best interest. It was in what they thought was their best interest. It just doesn't make sense. And so they're back to Weight Watchers again, you know, so the shortening of names and you know, because everybody likes one word names anymore too, looks good on a, on a, you know, a tile, on a smartphone. It's just easier to remember than a whole bunch of different names. You know, the spinning off of companies. You know, Kelanova is the latest, you know, it was a Kellogg spin and now it's being acquired by Mars, you know, because it was, it's such a nice tight positioning and, and financially successful business. So breaking companies up and, and that rebranding of different divisions into standalone companies but keeping a little bit of a heritage link to the original brand is, is a trend that we're seeing as well too. So when it comes to that whole digital piece, you know, whenever you introduce a new brand and you rebrand, you have to change up your website as well too and all your digital marketing. And that's a very kind of complex process and I'm not the real expert on it, but I know from our team that, you know, you really have to look at the advanced work that needs to be done to make sure that you've got everything in place to design the new website that's going to then be able to launch. And that kind of migration effort is critically important to make sure that you don't lose traffic in the process and then, and if anything, you're opening the doors to be able to attract new customers that you never had in the past. I think that's the, you know, it's a big piece of anything is how do you appeal to more people on that digital platform? How do you make sure that those folks that, you know that you need for your ambitious growth plans are being attracted to the brand. That there's, there's, there's, there's the digital hooks that are going to pull you into that?
- [34:05]
Matthew Bertram
Love it. I would just double down on the migration effort. I have seen very sad stories of companies that have rebranded or changed their domain and have not mapped correctly the migration of all the work that they've done online mapping back to it with 301s and how they're transferring over the website and that carry forward needs to happen. Or you could just destroy so much work and you know, Google is not as forgiving as it used to be with the proliferation of information. All right, Jim, I know we're getting to time here to wrap up. Jim, the rebrand man, I love it with rebranding experts.
- [34:50]
Jim Heininger
Jackson.
- [34:51]
Matthew Bertram
Jim, how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more or if they're looking to rebrand, refresh or redesign their entire brand for their organization?
- [34:58]
Jim Heininger
So website is rebrandingexperts.com you can reach me at jim ebrandingexperts.com also follow us on LinkedIn too, because we do post and share a lot of content on there that we write for Forbes about all the different, you know, challenges and pieces of the rebranding process. So would look forward to hearing from anybody.
- [35:19]
Matthew Bertram
Awesome. And if you've stayed around to this point and you are enjoying this kind of topics, please leave me a review. Let me know. Please subscribe and follow. It really helps the algorithm and I can get better guests and more people. Jim, I love having you on. I was excited to get you on. I think a lot of people going into the end of the year are looking to rebrand their company and are on the fence about it. So I really wanted to get you on. So thanks so much for making time. Until next time, everybody. Bye bye for now.