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- [00:00]
Dr. Emily Morse
I am so excited to finally share this with you. I am going on tour. It is the best sex ever tour and I hope you'll join me. And the show is all about you, the audience. Every night I'm going to be answering your questions, win prizes and leave with secrets to have the best sex ever. Every night is different because the show is all about you. So here's the dates then. Heading to Philadelphia on August 5th, Nashville on September 29th. Come with your partner, your friends, fly solo. You'll leave with practical tools, plenty of laughs, maybe some surprises. Well, definitely some surprises. Visit sex with emily.com events for tickets and tour information. I will see you there. Can't wait to meet you. You got blamed for their cheating.
- [00:46]
Dr. Scott Lyons
I got blamed for the cheating? Yeah.
- [00:48]
Dr. Emily Morse
In many, many relationships, porn is considered cheating. My husband told me that he fantasizes about one of my friends and has been basically our entire 34% of those who admitted cheating reported feeling happy and very happy with their partner. I love her. My confidant, my plus one, my emergency contact, and the only person I want to fuck for the rest of my life. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and my mission is to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate conversation around sex. This show is all about you. It's about you having better sex, expressing your desires, and knowing exactly what what you want. Also, be sure to follow me on all social media. It's Sex with Emily everywhere. Subscribe to my YouTube channel for full episodes and my newsletter. You're going to love my newsletter. I've been told I give really good newsletter, if you know what I mean. It's sex with emily.com newsletter. Finally, I am going on tour and I hope you join me. I'll be going all over the United States and the show is all about you. I'll be answering your questions live. We'll play games, there's giveaways. It's going to be such a good time. You can can find that at sex with emily.com events. All right, everyone, enjoy this episode. What was so interesting to me, this always sticks out to me is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York. It was Jon Ham, right? And he had all these, like, lovers, and he was, like, cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating. Except one day a phone bill came in. Like, remember you used to get the printed phone bills? And it would be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other other people from the home phone that weren't her. So she's like, you were cheating on me. Have you ever been cheated on? Ever thought about cheating yourself? Or maybe you're just wondering what even counts as cheating? Is it sex? Is it flirting? Is it DMing your ex at 2am with a just thinking about you text? Well, if you haven't talked about it with your partner, don't worry. You are so not alone. And I'll be honest. Hi, I'm a reformed cheater and in this episode we're diving into the messy, murky waters of infidelity. What it means in 2025, how to prevent it, and how to come back from it if it happens. Spoiler the definition of cheating is not one size fits all. For some it's sex. For others, it's like in a thirst trap. By the end of this episode, you're going to learn how to define cheating in your relationship before assumptions turn into accusations. So we're going to cover why just feeling it out isn't enough. The exact questions to ask your partner about boundaries. What to do with those fantasies you're afraid to say out loud, hint they might actually unlock deeper intimacy and how to stop letting jealousy wreck you and instead use it as a window into your desires. We'll also talk tech and temptation work DMs, late nights like digital flings and what real repair looks like if betrayal has happened in a relationship. This episode is packed with real talk, actionable tools, and even AI scripts to help you define your values, set clear boundaries, and build trust that actually lasts. Whether you're trying to prevent cheating, recover from it, or just stay ahead of the chaos, this is a conversation you don't want to miss. So let's get into it. My co Host today is Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a dear friend and a licensed holistic psychologist. He's a body based trauma expert and author of Addicted to Drama. He's helped over a million people worldwide break free from stress, trauma and drama through his signature somatic approach. Scott is the founder of the Embody Lab, the go to platform for learning body based trauma therapies and the creator of Somatic Stress Release, taught in over 20 countries. You want to go deeper? Use Code Sex with Emily for a discount on any Embody lab program@theembodylab.com you are going to love it. Let's talk about cheating today because there are so much information coming in. There's DMs, there's questions there's emails like, is this cheating? Have I been cheated on? There's so many different ways to cheat. Now, what constitutes cheating? A dm, A flirty. A flirty little look across the room. Could it be porn? Watching people think that's cheating? I got so many emails. I want to help the people.
- [05:21]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Let's read an email.
- [05:22]
Dr. Emily Morse
Okay, so here's some things that have come in just to give you the overview.
- [05:26]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Okay.
- [05:26]
Dr. Emily Morse
Number one, I'm living in the misery of a sexless marriage. So to meet my sexual needs, I have to masturbate. My problem with it is the porn it requires. Is there another way? So let me explain this to you. This guy from a guy named Keith. First, let's just cover the porn thing. In many, many relationships, porn is considered cheating. So it sounds to me like in Keith's relationship, he feels guilty about using porn. So just so you know, in a lot of heterosexual relationships, this is one of the huge hot button issues. Couples never talk about it. They make assumptions that when we get married, well, my partner would never watch porn again because they've got me. Why else would they need it? They don't understand that. That porn is actually a healthy part of sexual expression. And I always tell couples, listen, your partner's gonna be watching it when you get together. They're gonna be watching it when you're together. They're gonna watch it when you're not together. Because it's actually could be something that's completely separate than the relationship.
- [06:23]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Well, I think. I mean, I have a bigger question now. Like, what do you. What constitutes cheating? Like, what is the definition of cheating?
- [06:31]
Dr. Emily Morse
This is it, right? There's so many things that couples do not discuss when they get married or commit, and I think this should be one of them. Like, there's gotta be a forum that's like, do you think if I watch porn, is that cheating? If I take a weekend with friends, is that cheating? If I like someone's photo on Instagram, is that cheating? If I dance with someone at a bar, you're not there, is that cheating?
- [06:52]
Dr. Scott Lyons
So it's like cheating is actually kind of subjective. Like, there's no universal definition. What do you think cheating is? Em?
- [07:00]
Dr. Emily Morse
I think that objectively, most people would say, if you're in a committed relationship where you haven't discussed boundaries and you haven't discussed, like, what. What is on and off. That if you exchange bodily fluids with somebody, have an orgasm with someone else, make out with somebody else, that that's probably cheating for some people. Then there's the whole emotional cheating. You've talked to this person every day at work. You've shared everything about our life. Like, if I'm married to someone, I'm like, oh, but your office wife has become your new, you know, confidant. That. That could be cheating, too. So there's all these different ways to define it, but I think the standard definition is, like, you bang someone else.
- [07:37]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [07:38]
Dr. Emily Morse
And you were together, and that was a violation. But now, since social media and there's all these different ways to connect to people, you know what I always think about? Did you ever watch Mad Men?
- [07:48]
Dr. Scott Lyons
No.
- [07:49]
Dr. Emily Morse
Okay. So I barely got through it, but it was an amazing show. Came out. Whatever. You know what it is?
- [07:53]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:54]
Dr. Emily Morse
20 came out 10 years ago, but was so interesting to me. This always sticks out to me is that there was a scene where he was, like, this big ad exec in New York. It was Jon Hamm, Right. And he had all these, like, lovers, and he was, like, cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating. Except one day a phone bill came in. Like, remember you used to get the printed phone bills? And it'd be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't her. So she's like, you were cheating on me? And I'm guessing, like, cheating's been around. Like, that was, like, in the 60s or the 50s, that show. I'm guessing people have been cheating for. I don't know why I always think about that, because I'm like, that was so simple. That was, like, one bill that pointed to the cheating. But now it's like, you could find it out on Instagram. You're following your partner's location. Someone saw you at the bar. They, like, let your partner know. Like, there's a million ways to get caught now with cheating. But then it also comes down to most couples don't even discuss, like, I'm fine if my partner watches porn. But again, for so many, it is cheating. So I think that when couples decide that they're going to commit for the rest of their lives together, they've discussed, like, among other things, is this cheating? Would it be cheating to you if I masturbate and think about somebody else?
- [09:08]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [09:08]
Dr. Emily Morse
Is it cheating if I. Yeah.
- [09:10]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And it's gonna bring up tension. I think that's like, we have to normalize that a lot. Because if I said to you, we just started a relationship, and one of the first questions I ask you Out. Like, we're rolling out of bed, we're getting our coffee, and I'm like, hey, Em, what's cheating mean to you? Like, the first thought most people have is, why are they asking me this? And are they going to cheat on me? Which is, you know, that negative bias in their brain going, oh, shit. You know, that's probably. For many people, that's a big fear for me, it's a huge fear in a relationship.
- [09:39]
Dr. Emily Morse
You got to flip it that into, like, what are the boundaries? Like, what. What is our. It's more like, I love the way you're saying that, because to start off with what's cheating will be. That will not go anywhere helpful. But maybe it's more like, what are our values around intimacy?
- [09:54]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [09:54]
Dr. Emily Morse
Are we only sleeping with each other?
- [09:56]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [09:56]
Dr. Emily Morse
Um, let's make an assumption that I'm not going to sleep with anybody else. That you're not going to sleep with anybody else. But in that category should be like, what about porn?
- [10:05]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [10:06]
Dr. Emily Morse
What about texting somebody else of another gender? That, you know, I think there's just. And then as it comes along, couples need to keep revisiting these conversations.
- [10:16]
Dr. Scott Lyons
I really like this because in. When you're navigating, like, polyamory, when you're navigating, like, multiple partners and you're establishing the rules, and that is where you have typically been, like, having the conversation about what is cheating.
- [10:29]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [10:30]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Where like, hey, this, like, yes, you can go sleep with someone, but you can't make out with someone on the dance floor. You know, or like, no kissing or no second dates, whatever it is in that navigation. But I love this because so rarely in more monogamous situations, because it's subjective. It actually is subjective.
- [10:53]
Dr. Emily Morse
Subjective. It's nuanced for sure.
- [10:55]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And I know if you're listening, you're like, no, it's not subjective. It's really clear what is cheating. It's actually not. It's not. It is for you, and that's what's important. And now you need to communicate and express that to the person you're with.
- [11:09]
Dr. Emily Morse
I want every couple to have this conversation, and I think they can learn from people in open relationships or in polyamorous relationships. Don't quote product. I know people are, like, going, oh, that doesn't work. Or, that's crazy. I'm not saying that you need to be in it. But the. But the protocols that people in open relationships go through are like, oh, okay, well, when we're at play parties, we get to hook up with someone else. There will be no kissing. There will be like, you set up the boundaries and the rules, and then you get to adjust them as you. As you go along. But. But the problem is, is that most relationships, they're like, we're together, we're monogamous, till death do us part. Nothing else will ever happen. I will never be attracted to anybody else again, nor will you. There won't be any ambiguity. And I'm to make assumptions that you actually are going to stop your porn watching.
- [11:50]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And I think part of this lack of communication is what leads to the highest statistics on cheating.
- [11:56]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes.
- [11:57]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Right. It's not the only reason. We'll talk about the reasons as to why cheating often happens. But the lack of communication, the lack of even the conversation is. Is already starting to hide things. Because we all have, like, as humans, we all have fantasies. We all have thoughts. And yes, this is about, do we action them? How far can we action them? Do we even express the fantasies? When it's not about our partner to our partner, all of those are really important to discuss. But as humans, if we just shame the fact that we and hide, that leads to less communication and more opportunity to have bigger ruptures.
- [12:41]
Dr. Emily Morse
I mean, there's just so much nuance that this should all be discussed. Couples don't want to have these conversations.
- [12:45]
Dr. Scott Lyons
What if we were to have the conversation now, like we were a couple?
- [12:47]
Dr. Emily Morse
Let's do it.
- [12:48]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Okay. So we're having our morning coffee and our sex with Emily mugs, which makes the coffee so much spicier. And I say to you, like, hey, Em, you know, we haven't had this conversation yet, but I really want to talk about an aspect of our intimacy.
- [13:04]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes.
- [13:05]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And, you know, I love that line, by the way, and I'm going to repeat it here, which is, you know, my monogamy may not be your monogamy, and I really want to align about where that is for us. Like, what might feel like a rupture for you. I don't even have to say cheating, but what might feel like a rupture for you.
- [13:23]
Dr. Emily Morse
I always want to say cheating's like a buzzy, but I feel it's more like our beliefs and values around monogamy. If we're monogamous, what are our beliefs and values around it? And then, yeah, we could decide what what is. We both believe it and then what. What might be seen as cheating. Right.
- [13:39]
Dr. Scott Lyons
So what are your. Yeah, I love that. What are your beliefs and values?
- [13:43]
Dr. Emily Morse
I believe that if we're monogamous, I would guess that we are only sleeping with each other, that we're using protection. If you don't know, that's. It's. I guess if we're open, like, obviously we're only sleeping with each other. Like, I also understand that sometimes relationships and attraction can meander over time and fade and things twist and turn. And I would want us always to have an open dialogue about should something happen or should there be some fantasy that comes up for you or there's something that you're like, oh, I think it'd be kind of hot to have a threesome. Or, like, I would want to know. Like, I know right now in our relationship we're in a really good place where our sex is really great. It's really exciting. But. But I would want to know, like, if you are attracted to someone outside the relationship, how might we handle it? Do you think that fantasizing is a form of cheating?
- [14:34]
Dr. Scott Lyons
This is really interesting because we, you know, from a neuroscience perspective, we innately daydream, right? We daydream. And even dreaming. It's like if I remember a couple I worked with and he had expressed to her that he had a dream about sleeping with someone, and we might go, amazing communication. Thank you for communicating. And for her, she said, you cheated on me, and she couldn't let it go. And she even said to me, she was like, I know this is crazy. I know this is ridiculous, but I can't get over the sense that he was dreaming about someone else besides me. And we, you know, like, we broke down some of the neuroscience of where dreams come from and what that might mean, and there's symbolism there and other things like that.
- [15:22]
Dr. Emily Morse
But damn, that's a really big one, though. That is so common. Like, we can't help it if we have dreams about somebody else. People sleep up, have dreams about sleeping with their ex all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean they want to sleep with their ex or they have fantasies about someone else. No, but this is the tricky part. This is where in a relationship we have to say, do you want to hear that information? Rather than just offering that.
- [15:45]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Well, and we can't necessarily take it at face value if there's a fantasy or a dream. So if you said to me, hey, I just had this sort of fantasy about the other cameraman and I cute, super cute cameraman today. And I said to you, okay, thank you for letting me know that what's happening in you? Like, oh, you're.
- [16:09]
Dr. Emily Morse
I just feel better like, that I share. See, to me, this stuff should be out in the open. Like, yeah, I would love you just to be able to hear that and accept me and not feel like, well, look, obviously we're firing that cameraman.
- [16:19]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah. But I think what's important here is, yes. You know, shame dies when we have a safe place to share our stories. Right. And that's an important aspect, because shame shuts us down relationally. And more importantly, is, like, I'm really interested in. If it wasn't just about the cameraman, what's present for you? Oh, part of the fantasy is, I'm feeling more aroused today. Or maybe I'm feeling a little lonely. Maybe there's something underneath the fantasy that we can connect about.
- [16:53]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah. There's something more to that about, like, me feeling like, oh, if I'm only committing to you, then it feels like it's shutting off this part of me where I get a lot of val. I get a lot of internal validation. I love validation from men.
- [17:06]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [17:06]
Dr. Emily Morse
So I would love to feel like, oh, there could be something there, like the possibility of something new and sparky. Even though I don't necessarily want to have sex with him, I just like to have that. Is that something that I could still have in the boundaries of our relationship?
- [17:19]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
- [17:21]
Dr. Emily Morse
Hey, Emily. I've been a longtime listener. I thought things were doing pretty well in my marriage up until recently. My husband told me that he fantasizes about one of my friends and has been basically our entire relationship. He does it sometimes, too, to get off while he's having sex with me. And it's thrown me for a loop and made me feel pretty insecure.
- [17:40]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, I would feel pretty insecure, too.
- [17:42]
Dr. Emily Morse
To me, it feels like a betrayal and almost like cheating because he's doing it to get off inside of me when I should be the one arousing him. How do I even go about handling this? What are your thoughts on this? Where do I go from here? Look forward to hearing from you. I get that he was trying to be really honest, probably in some way, but how is she ever gonna recover from the fact that every time her husband's having sex with her, he's thinking about her friend? To get off and get aroused, like that's a rupture, then I don't know how we're gonna repair that one. So to me, they didn't do the underground. You have to say, is it okay if I share with you my. How do you feel about me fantasizing? Do you want to know about it? He didn't clear any of that. And so now they're in more trouble. That just felt like I wanted to, to cover that.
- [18:23]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that there's like, it gets really tricky if you find yourself projecting someone else's face onto your partner and someone else's body onto your partner. Like you can't be with your partner. Then I think that's an important pause point, you know, to go, whoa, maybe this isn't the match that I want. Or maybe I need to do some self reflection or maybe I need to do some work or maybe, you know, oftentimes we can get stuck in fantasy as a way to avoid intimacy.
- [18:59]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes, well, that's right.
- [19:01]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Disassociation, dissociate, disconnection, projecting someone else's face. It's like what's happening under the hood of that fantasy and projection, that's the material that we need to be talking about connecting about, not, hey, I'm fantasizing about your best friend while I'm having sex with you. Where do we go from there?
- [19:21]
Dr. Emily Morse
Right.
- [19:21]
Dr. Scott Lyons
We can't. But hey, I did some self reflection work and I realize I'm disconnecting a little bit while we're intimate. Or I felt rejected lately from you and have been putting someone else's face, you know, like, whatever it is, it
- [19:36]
Dr. Emily Morse
felt safer to do that rather than to connect with you intimately. So there's. And we're just talking about more of like the psychology. We're not even getting into, like, my partner had an affair.
- [19:44]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [19:45]
Dr. Emily Morse
So should we get into some of those stats too? Because we're talking about the nuance. But then there's the full on. Like, my partner slept with someone else and didn't tell me and that happens. Okay, so there's some juicy infidelity stats. The prevalence, it says about 20 to 25% of married people admit to having cheated on their spouse at some point. And then around 40% of unmarried people report having been cheating on by a romantic partner. Then we got into. The gender gap is shrinking. I just found this was interesting. And then we can break this down, that historically men reported higher rates of cheating, but the gap is closing. Women under 30 are now just as likely as men to cheat. So this is all the people that are going to report it might be higher, but what do you think about that? They admit to having cheating. When I hear cheating, I'm feeling it's a physical cheating.
- [20:34]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, most likely it's a physical cheating. And most likely they're talking about kind of an extreme. So sex.
- [20:41]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes.
- [20:42]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And you know, not to make people More paranoid. But what is the actual self reporting rate? You know what I mean? Like that saying 20, 25% are report. Yes. Doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of other people that are not reporting or will lie even in a study.
- [21:02]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah. It could be double that number.
- [21:04]
Dr. Scott Lyons
It could be double that number. And if you're listening and you're like, oh my gosh, that makes me really scared about intimacy. You're in the right place. Like it's fair. Like it, this is why communication and conversation needs to be happening around this subject matter with partners and not in a, just a threatening way.
- [21:30]
Dr. Emily Morse
Well, I feel like couples who really are able to talk about all the things that are surrounding cheating and why people cheat.
- [21:38]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [21:38]
Dr. Emily Morse
And get ahead of it and troubleshoot it and be like I like, let's talk about all, let's make promises to each other that we're going to have frequent check ins about our relationship status and our sex. Like, and we ever find that we're not having sex and we're not meeting each other's needs, like let's talk about before the cheating happens. And I think that's what happens, that couples don't really have the basis. So they're like, I'm feeling unseen. I'm feeling like my partner isn't prioritizing me. I'm feeling lonely in the relationship. I mean there's so many reasons why people cheat and they say some of the top reasons are feeling emotionally neglected or lonely. They want variety, seeking validation or self esteem boost, revenge, falling out of love, sexual dissatisfaction. So there's a lot of different reasons for it. And I would like to just make a confession here.
- [22:30]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Okay.
- [22:32]
Dr. Emily Morse
That I am a reform cheater. I used to be a cheater.
- [22:37]
Dr. Scott Lyons
What do you mean by that?
- [22:38]
Dr. Emily Morse
I mean that in my 20s and early 30s I was in relationships for probably two. I was like a serial monogamist. And I also had a job where I was traveling a lot internationally. And I would like have these fun, like I'd meet some guy, an airplane or be in Thailand at some beautiful hotel and like, and it was like, it felt just like a fun little romp, a fun little experience that was very, very exciting. And it wasn't necessarily for me because I was missing anything in my relationship. It was more like it was never like in the same city, like in me trying to be like my cheating wasn't as bad because I was not on US soil, I was in Asia.
- [23:30]
Dr. Scott Lyons
But I mean this is not uncommon. Just a moment ago, the creativity that people have to justify the action as a way of avoiding their own shame or the pain they caused or to even address the underlying patterns. Is rich in creativity. I've heard some wild ones, but I like this one. You know, I wasn't on US soil, so it wasn't quite cheap.
- [23:57]
Dr. Emily Morse
Well, that's what I'm telling you. And it sounds really up and it says people in happy relationships still cheat. In fact, 34% of those who admitted cheating reported being happy and very happy with their partner. So. So for me, it was like I was young, I had all these inner. I don't even know if I told you this. I do these international trade missions with legislators and I would travel and stay in these beautiful hotels and I would meet just really interesting people and we'd be drinking. It'd be like a one night thing. And I' be like, I don't know if I'm going to see them again. But it was like, it was like the excitement, the buildup and so yes, I had a partner back in, you know, wherever I was living, San Francisco at the time. And I just sort of felt like, it felt so far away and it was almost like I went to the opera this night. It was like, it was like an experience I had. I went to a play and I happened to have sex with somebody in another country. But what I decided is that doesn't feel great to me either. So I decided that I was going to never do that again. I never wanted to be a cheater. And so I started to talk to my partners about that. In my most recent relationships, I full on say like, I've been, I've. I've not been faithful in the past and I never want this to happen again. So it's really important to me that I. We have boundaries around it and we talk about it. And in my most recent relationship we were like. And he was much more open too. And he was like, great, if you something happens, you're gonna form like, let me know, let me know ahead of time if it's about to happen. Now that's tricky with the time difference. If I'm like, hey, there's this really hot guy and I really want to sleep with him. But like we were so much more open to it that I don't know that's not going to be everyone's partner, but. And I'm actually way, way less interested in now too. But I had a lot of guilt around that because I just knew that somehow it wasn't right. And I had so much opportunity and anyway, that's me. Have you been cheated on?
- [25:38]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, I've definitely been cheated on. I've never cheated to my knowledge.
- [25:42]
Dr. Emily Morse
Okay.
- [25:43]
Dr. Scott Lyons
To my subjective knowledge. But yeah, no, I've definitely been cheated on. And, you know, it, it's. I remember, like, just overriding it in myself. I mean, like, about 55 to 70% of couples try to work it out, right?
- [25:59]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [25:59]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And I remember going, it's okay, we can work this out. This really hurt me. But, you know, and every time I try to even talk about it, I got blamed for it.
- [26:09]
Dr. Emily Morse
You got blamed for their cheating?
- [26:11]
Dr. Scott Lyons
I got blamed for the cheating, yeah. Not even, like, valid excuses in my book of like, hey, you've been neglectful my needs. It was just like, yeah, I didn't like the way you said something, so I went and cheated. You know, like, just shitty behavior. And I had gotten to a point where I was like, okay, if we just communicate it, All I care about is the communication. Like, if you have to go do this, talk to me about it. And that. That wasn't a possibility. But also, you know, the, the rules kept changing.
- [26:47]
Dr. Emily Morse
They kept changing the rules.
- [26:48]
Dr. Scott Lyons
They kept changing. Yeah. The rules of, like, okay, I can sleep with people. These three people who I've had, you know, these sort of fantasy relationships with
- [26:59]
Dr. Emily Morse
in the past, like, it almost doesn't count because they're writing them.
- [27:02]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah. Like, that was their rule. And I was like, okay. And at the time, I was just trying to be the cool boyfriend, like, and just be like, yeah, I'm cool with anything. I'm the coolest. And like, hurts. It really hurts.
- [27:13]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [27:14]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And. Yeah. And in the end, they kept changing it. Like, they would make out with someone on dance floor and I was like, hey, that wasn't in our rule set. And then they would get mad at me for calling them out. Those are red flags. If you cannot communicate and someone gets utterly defensive, that's a no go.
- [27:30]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [27:31]
Dr. Scott Lyons
But there's also something that's interesting. I'm going to ask you back. This is. I didn't see any empathy for the pain it caused me either. And, and this is not uncommon for individuals. Although, like 70, what, 70 some percent of people actually admit to feeling regret after cheating. The rest.
- [27:54]
Dr. Emily Morse
People do.
- [27:54]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, most people do.
- [27:56]
Dr. Emily Morse
But your partners, you didn't feel any. They turn it on you. They kind of gaslit you or whatever.
- [28:01]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's not in the, like, the sphere of being able to repair it. Like, we'll. We'll talk about repair, but, like, it when there's no regret, when there's no compassion or empathy of how that affects the other person, there's no. That's not a foundation to which you
- [28:19]
Dr. Emily Morse
can heal and repass. Especially because if they're not feeling empathy for you there, how are they feeling empathy from you in other parts of the relationships? And that's, like, really, really hurtful. But I think also this brings back
- [28:30]
Dr. Scott Lyons
to, like, did you feel regret?
- [28:32]
Dr. Emily Morse
I. I honestly, yeah, honestly, I never got caught. It never came up again. So I was like. I felt like I was able to compartmentalize it, but I did feel a little bit because I was like, go. I was also backpacking for a year through Southeast Asia. My boyfriend was in San Francisco at the time. So I felt like I had this sort of free range to do what I wanted. But, yeah, no, I did. I felt like a little bit, but then I actually told him yeah, and he was fine because it turned out he was sleeping with half of his office. And we were all fine. We were in our twenties. It was all fine. But I feel like, the nuance here, actually, for the modern age of dating with, like, social media and people being out there, like, meeting so many different types of people. Like, I think monogamy is a huge struggle for people, but so are open relationships, and it's not for everybody. Some people are like, I could never do that. But then there's a lot of people who are like, I'm kind of. I'm down with it. So I just think I would love to invite people to have really honest conversations with themselves and their partners about, like, how they actually feel about some playing. Like, some going to a play party every once in a while. Like, I know a lot of couples who are like, no, we are completely monogamous except for when we go to a play party. Like, and then we're allowed to make out or allowed to have sex with someone else when my partner is there. There's, like, all these different ways that couples cheat or get their needs met. It's what it's not. When it's, you know, cheating is like, what. It's like the true infidelity, and you're not actually sharing and you're doing it behind someone's back. But I think for some people, like, I actually have thought that maybe I'm just not really someone who is preternaturally monogamous. Like, I've never felt that I am monogamous in my. In my soul.
- [30:12]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [30:13]
Dr. Emily Morse
Like, in my. I think I've always been a little Bit more flex.
- [30:17]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And this is a really interesting piece in psychology, especially on polyamory. I know a good friend of mine, Jessica Fern, who wrote the book Polysecure and we've had a lot of conversations about this, which is, am I an individual who's just not constructed, made for polyamory, Excuse me, monogamy. I'm not a person made for monogamy. Or is this a manifestation of my insecure attachment style? Say more like, like, you know, when we have a, let's say avoidant attachment style where we like withhold, we have trouble being in relation to other people, we feel overwhelmed by them. And that stems from as infants, oftentimes caregivers that are too overwhelming to our nervous system. So we grow up and that carries forward with us. And then we feel like, yeah, I don't really, like, I don't trust people. I don't find that relationships make my life better or whatever the belief system is or the reflex of just going. When people get too close, I get overwhelmed and then I push people away or I escape.
- [31:27]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [31:28]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And that can lead to less intimate one on one encounters and more of a desire to jump between people. Yeah, it's tricky.
- [31:38]
Dr. Emily Morse
It's so fucking tricky. It's like, yeah, it's just tricky. This is the kind of stuff, why it's so important to be like aware of your attachment styles of. And your upbringing and that like not everybody's going to be on the same page with you. I feel like when you're finding a partner, we have to be honest about this stuff. Even if we think we have like a proclivity towards maybe being more open. I think a lot of us don't really want to talk about that because we're afraid we're going to push them away. But how much better to be like really honest about it?
- [32:05]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [32:05]
Dr. Emily Morse
In the, in the jump. So you're not.
- [32:08]
Dr. Scott Lyons
You know, I had a great conversation with someone the other day about this. I went on a few dates with them and they were really clear. They're like, I love and only do monogamy. And I was like, cool, what's your definition of monogamy? So it actually came up and he was like, means that there's no one else in the picture. No one else we're sleeping with. And I said, oh, interesting, because for some couples, monogamy is. Includes threesomes as long as you're together.
- [32:37]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes. Yep.
- [32:38]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Right. And I said, I don't mind that. And, and for him, he was like, no, no, no, that's not Monogamy. That's not okay in his definition. Yeah. And then he called me the next day, and he was like, look, I don't think we can date if that's what you like. And I said, well, I think let's pause. And I want to recognize you have. You're having a response that's important for me to hear, which is, do you feel scared? Do you feel nervous? Do you feel like I might do something that might abandon you? He was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's true for me. And I was like, well, let's have this honest conversation because I might get the opportunity to say, I like you enough that I want to really make sure that you feel safe and secure. And threesomes aren't that important to me. But if you just make the assumption based on your reflexive trigger, we're not going anywhere.
- [33:29]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah, no, that's great. To kind of break down the nuance of it. He was just like. Because maybe if you guys did build a foundation where you felt really secure, then maybe the threesome would be open. It's also triggering. We don't really know what it means. And so you can just shut down from that for sure. I had a boyfriend once who was like, I actually think it was a fetish. And not even just a fantasy, a fetish around threesomes, meaning that every time he. We would have sex or he would masturbate, he had to think about a threesome to get off. Like, he'd be like, right now I'm picturing, like, another woman going down. And you like, that was his thing. So to me, that's a fetish if it's a requirement for arousal.
- [34:05]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yes.
- [34:05]
Dr. Emily Morse
And I was like. And early on, I was like, okay, I can role play this ship. Then eventually he was like, are we gonna have a threesome? We're threesome. And I was like, we haven't been together that long. I don't really want to. And then we kind of, like, had to end. It was like that was all he was focused on is, like, somehow he easily got wired to net. And that was, like, too much, but maybe. Yeah. So I think that there's just so many different ways that this plays out. And what I love about this conversation is, like, we all. I wish. And maybe we could create this, like, some kind of form. Maybe we could do it as my Smart SX membership, my community, that people could have, like, another form, kind of like the. Yes. No. Maybe they could download this series of questions that you ask someone. A new relationship I mean, I know we don't want to have these questions because early on it's amazing. I can't imagine sleeping with anyone else. You're my everything. But like, guess what? Reality checks in. The honeymoon phase dies. You're gonna have arousal retraction to somebody else. So how do you start to answer these questions, like, honestly an opening, you know? Cause a lot of times cheating isn't always about like a dissatisfaction with the person. It's sometimes it's about looking for like, connection or looking for like a lost part of ourself that we might feel with a new partner that this partner can't really give to us. It's not about a whole relationship. It's just like sometimes sex is just about connection and intimacy. But it's like, oh, this person made me feel a certain way and I want to do this like one off experience with them. But I don't know, I just think that we have such a tight rein around sex where sometimes we're just trying to. I don't know, I think that we're just trying to feel. It's really hard when we want one partner to fill multiple roles in our life as our best friend and our lover. Very Esther Perel style. But like, you should be my best friend, my lover, my confidant, my plus one, my emergency contact and the only person I want to fuck for the rest of my life. Like, that's a lot of pressure on someone, so to say. Like, maybe we go to a play party. Like I know a lot of couples who were like four times a year we go to a play party. When I mean play party, it's usually like an invite only where couples go and they like swing and they do something and like, that satisfies their needs. Or maybe they spend a week apart where they do whatever they want. And you know, so I just think I want to give. I just want to paint a picture. Like there's a lot of. If cheating is a problem in your relationship, it's like your biggest fear, there might be a way to sort of break it down in a way that could work for you. Is that all?
- [36:24]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah, tracking. And I think there's a few other like, things like micro cheating, which I think is really interesting, especially in like if I. And yeah, like social media. Like if I'm hearting all your photos, em, and I'm with someone else, am I micro cheating?
- [36:38]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [36:39]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Right. If the intention is about attention and this like, you know, way that that might fall under the category of emotional cheating.
- [36:48]
Dr. Emily Morse
Let's Talk about that. I'm telling you, it says that social media site is the starting point for over 20% of affairs today.
- [36:54]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Really?
- [36:55]
Dr. Emily Morse
I hear from people all the time, they're like, I told my partner to stop liking all these bikini photos of this woman. And like, he will not stop. He's doing it every day and it feels awful to me. And he won't stop. So I, to me, like, yeah, I get why that is cheating adjacent, because you just feel, like, violated. And I would say to them, like, tell your partner, like, it doesn't make me feel great and secure in our relationship when you're doing that, but somebody just can't stop it. It says it's responsible. They call it, like micro cheating, flirting, DMing, private texting that's reported by 45 to 50% of people as problematic, even if it's not technically cheating. So I think that that's like, I don't know if I told someone that if I was with a partner and I was like, baby, it doesn't make me feel good, I would want them to be like, done. Like, I will never. I'm. I will not do that anymore. Like, what is it? Because what. Why are they doing it? What is it giving them if it's hurting me?
- [37:50]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And the counter argument often is, is, well, that feels too limiting. Or you're. You're. You know, why are you trying to control me? Which is, you know, an interesting point too. And it's. It's like if. And I had this with a patient, patients recently, where that was the case. She was like, I hate that he's sitting next to me in bed on Instagram, liking other girls photos. And one of the questions I asked is, is he liking anyone else's photos? She was like, yeah, he likes these photos on rabbits. He's really into rabbits. And I was like, do you think he's having an affair with the rabbit? And I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm trying. You know, this is. The thing is like, when it's our fear, when it's our own trigger, we might. We do. We narrow our perception and our focus onto the thing we are most scared about. So I am blocking out all the other things that might also be here in the present moment. I'm blocking out all the rabbits. He's Harding. I'm blocking out all the. All the males. He's Harding. On, like, his friends.
- [38:57]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [38:57]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And it's like, and, yeah, who are these women? And she was like, oh, these women are his friends. And I Was like, okay, so I want to address this. Doesn't make you feel great. That's important. Let's all sit with that and let's break it down. And if we break it down and it still feels like this is a no go, then that's a negotiation between you and your partner. And. Which is different than. And this is where it gets tricky. It's like, is that different than just full on cheating?
- [39:31]
Dr. Emily Morse
I'm just glad that they're talking about it.
- [39:34]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah. Because what's funky is when we, you know. Well, it's a high statistic of couples that try to save their marriage or try to save their relationships, but only about 15% of them make it.
- [39:47]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah. Let's talk about that after. How to help couples heal from the cheating.
- [39:51]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Oh, yeah.
- [39:52]
Dr. Emily Morse
Do you want to get into that? Like, it says, like. Like they say, like, stop. You know, we talk about, like, stop the affair completely.
- [39:58]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Stop that shit.
- [39:59]
Dr. Emily Morse
Like, stop that shit. Whatever. Whatever it is, you want to stop it and say, like, okay, I'm back to, like, working and rebuilding our trust and our relationship. So. And you need total transparency. Acknowledge the pain. You need your partner. Be like, I'm really sorry that I. Like, sounds like you didn't have that.
- [40:17]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [40:17]
Dr. Emily Morse
You didn't have a partner who was like, oh, my God, that must have been really, really hard for you that you had to go through that. The betrayed partner needs to express their feelings of, like, rage and grief and confusion and all the things. And that partner kind of has to take it. Right. And listen and listen. And then you got to open the conversation beyond the facts. Sometimes couples focus on, like, what happened. I want the details. Did you go down and then were you naked? Did you take foot. Whatever. But really, it's like, what. What do you think about that?
- [40:46]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yes. I say once, one time, one time only. And anything after that, you're starting to attach to the details and not to the most important piece, which is the rupture in the relationship and what's happening in you and what's happening in your partner.
- [41:04]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [41:04]
Dr. Scott Lyons
If we get too attached to the details, to the story, we are just cycling in a trauma vortex.
- [41:13]
Dr. Emily Morse
Absolutely.
- [41:14]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [41:14]
Dr. Emily Morse
Like the. The like. Then you can't get those images out of your head. So it's more like, what did the affair mean to you? Like, what was missing? What were you logging for what was going on in your head? Like, getting that. Those kind of questions. Right. Like, what is happening in our relationship? Not just between you and the affair partner, but, like, what's really happening? With us.
- [41:31]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [41:31]
Dr. Emily Morse
And then you gotta eventually shift from the blame to the curiosity. Like, what does this mean for us? Do you think we can rebuild? Like, what does this. What is this messaging us about our relationship? Where do we need to go? Like, what is it revealed? What do we need moving forward? And then you gotta rebuild trust. Now this is where I think a lot of couples fall. Like, it's really fucking hard to rebuild trust. You don't just go to therapy once. Like, when trust is broken, it is such a rupture that, like, a lot of couples can never repair it. So you really just can't. Like, I don't know. I mean, sometimes people have, like, I'm gonna share you all my passwords. You're gonna get. You're gonna be able to see everything. Like, you're gonna follow my location.
- [42:08]
Dr. Scott Lyons
That will work temporarily, but that's not actually how we rebuild trust.
- [42:12]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah. It's just time. It's what?
- [42:14]
Dr. Scott Lyons
It's time. Time can be helpful, but a lot of things can happen in that time that don't rebuild the trust. So it's actual work. It's. Hey, Em, I know we had this big rupture. You slept with someone else yesterday. I had this moment where I had a little flashback and I felt really alone and I texted you and I didn't hear back in an hour, and I got really anxious. And there's this ownership in that. And the partner's job in that moment is to just reflect back. You got really anxious when they didn't text you back for the hour.
- [42:52]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yeah.
- [42:52]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And it really brought up some old feelings and some imagery from the past. And how can I be with you in this moment to support and love you and really reflect back that I'm here with you, I'm committed to.
- [43:07]
Dr. Emily Morse
So that's really beautiful. So part of that would be like, okay, I hear that you got triggered when you didn't hear from me. So now maybe a resolve to. That would be like. So I promise that I will text from now on. I make the best effort to text you right back when you text me. Right. To make you feel.
- [43:21]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Because simply you giving me your location and I start checking, it actually induces more anxiety and dopamine. So every time I check the phone as to where you are, because I think you're cheating on me, I get a little dopamine hit. And that makes it pretty confusing because all of a sudden I'm becoming attached to the process of anytime I'm anxious and feeling a little better, it's associated with the paranoia and mistrust I have.
- [43:52]
Dr. Emily Morse
That is so true. I'm just remembering now when my boyfriend cheated on me in my 20s.
- [43:57]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Oh, you have been cheated on.
- [43:58]
Dr. Emily Morse
I have been cheated on. I just remember this. Well, I. Yes.
- [44:01]
Dr. Scott Lyons
The same guy you cheated on.
- [44:03]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes. But it's a long story. I was traveling, and then I came back, and he's like, oh, my God. I didn't. I. I was with nobody. But it turned out he literally slept with everyone in the city. So that I said, including his massage therapist. But at the time, there was, like, answering machines, and I got the code to his answering machine, so I would obsessively call and listen to his answering machine and the messages, and that was, like, every time I went to his house, I was digging for paper. I was looking for evidence. Looking for evidence. And I. And I became, like, this crazy. Like, I became neurotically obsessed with, like, if he was, like, a minute late, like, he's like, I'm going to the drugstore to get something. And he was like, two minutes later, like, clearly he's fallen in love with the cashier. Like, I would create crazy stories in my head.
- [44:41]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [44:41]
Dr. Emily Morse
So I get exactly what you're saying. It made me someone who got very jealous and insecure because I didn't trust him.
- [44:48]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah. It's a hard loop to bring. And I will say, like, I've been on that same loop when I've been cheated on. And I would, like, check where their phone is. I'm like, oh, they haven't moved in now? Or are they. Are they really. You know, when they say they're out with. You know, and it's. And that's a point where I recognize. And it's so hard to break. But I recognized in that moment, they can't break this cycle for me.
- [45:11]
Dr. Emily Morse
No.
- [45:12]
Dr. Scott Lyons
This is about me doing work and seeing if I actually can stay in this relationship with what happened. Because that loop is exhausting.
- [45:22]
Dr. Emily Morse
It's exhausting loop. And you're right. And you think it's helping you, but it's not. I would obsessively call his voice, like, ten times a day. Who else has called him? Who else has called him? So the other thing is, like, so you're trying to rebuild trust, but it's also interesting to, like, create a new relationship. Like, where are we now? Like, don't go back to the past. It might never be how it was, but you could build something new and stronger and just more honest.
- [45:47]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah. Ruptures happen. That's a given in any relationship. Cheating is kind of the ultimate rupture or one of the ultimate ruptures along with a few other ones. And if I constantly like, you don't. You don't take out the trash. And I bring back the fury. I have that. And it's because you cheated on me. That's on me. Right. I have to go to therapy. I have to process that, and I have to process it with you. But I cannot keep weaponizing. Right. What hasn't been processed against the other person. There is no way to repair that rupture.
- [46:21]
Dr. Emily Morse
Wow.
- [46:21]
Dr. Scott Lyons
And even though I might not say, and you cheated on me, it's embedded in.
- [46:25]
Dr. Emily Morse
It's embedded in the injury.
- [46:26]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Right.
- [46:26]
Dr. Emily Morse
Right. Oh, it's tricky. But see, to me. But couples can also very much repair from this too. It doesn't have to mean that it's the end. If you do this kind of work with a guided therapist, you're willing to look at it. And if you really both genuinely want to make it work, if one person isn't invested in it, then, like, that's probably not gonna, you know, we're not gonna heal this.
- [46:46]
Dr. Scott Lyons
No. Love is an action. And it takes everyone in the relationship to continue to action, to rebuild, to establish and re. Establish the relationship and intimacy.
- [46:57]
Dr. Emily Morse
Yes. Rebuilding, reinventing together. What kind of relationship do you want to co create now knowing that this rupture happened?
- [47:03]
Dr. Scott Lyons
Yeah.
- [47:04]
Dr. Emily Morse
I love it. That's it for for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like subscribe and leave it a review wherever you get your podcast. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok and X. It's all at Sex with Emily. And I've been told I give really good email. So sign up@sexemily.com for free guides, articles and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. Have a question about sex, dating, or relationships? Call my hotline 559-talk-SEX. That's 559-825-5739. Or leave a message@sexwithemily.com Ask and hey, was it good for you? Email me anytime@feedbackexwithemily.com I'd love to hear what you're thinking.