#490 How to Build HOT Healthy Relationships with Breann Starr

Summary

Shameless Sex Podcast #490: How to Build HOT Healthy Relationships with Breann Starr

Released: June 16, 2026
Host(s): Amy Baldwin and April Lampert | Guest: Breann Starr

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Shameless Sex Podcast dives deep into “hot, healthy relationships” with return guest and intimacy coach, Breann Starr. The conversation explores the essentials of building thriving connections, including communication, codependency, attachment styles, self-work, and somatic relationship tools. This practical, heartfelt, and occasionally playful discussion offers advice and wisdom for anyone seeking greater intimacy and connection—whether single or partnered.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reclaiming Sexuality and Pleasure After Trauma (04:00 – 15:41)

• The episode begins with a listener question about healing and regaining “mojo” after being sexually assaulted.
• Advice for Survivors:
  • Trauma heals over time and at your own pace; there is “no quick fix.” (11:40)
  • Support can and should go beyond talk therapy: consider somatic experiencing, sexological bodywork, and embodied therapeutic modalities.
  • Amy: “You’re not broken. There are ways to reconnect with your body and experience pleasure, love, relationships, safety again.” (06:14)
• Talking About Trauma with New Partners:
  • Wait until a sense of trust and connection is established before disclosing trauma.
  • Test for emotional safety with potential partners before sharing deeply vulnerable experiences.
  • If someone can’t hold your story, “they’re not right for you.”
• Healing Practices:
  • Start small; e.g., if hands feel safe for masturbation, begin there before trying toys or other forms of penetration.
  • Use grounding techniques (deep breaths, sensory regulation), and have a support plan (trusted friends, professionals) if triggered.
• Resources Mentioned:
  • Sexological bodyworkers (like Breann), somatic therapy, previous episodes (“Sex, Relationships and Healing After Trauma" with Darshana Avila - Ep. 215), and hypnotherapy.

2. Meet Breann Starr: Journey into Sex and Relationship Coaching (16:32 – 19:19)

• Breann’s path started with a deep curiosity and her own personal challenges with intimacy and relationships.
• Training in Somatica and Hakomi, plus somatic sexological bodywork, shaped her practice.
• Breann: “The health of our sex, the health of our relationships really determine the health of our lives.” (18:13)

3. Essentials of Hot, Healthy Relationships (21:03 – 29:24)

• Personal Responsibility:
  • Both partners should be committed to their own growth and "doing their own work," not just focusing on the relationship.
• Healthy Partnership Fundamentals:
  • Shared or compatible approaches to communication and “dancing together” through life.
  • Having core values that align (e.g., children, marriage, beliefs)—flexibility, not rigid dogma.
  • Appreciation and active awe for your partner—even after the "shiny newness" wears off.
  • Autonomy and “taking space” to foster individuation, which enhances connection when reuniting.
  • Memorable Quote:
    • Amy: “I find it pretty unattractive if someone isn’t into growth of some sort....but I also find it really attractive if people are comfortable with discomfort, which is not an easy thing to do.” (24:05)
  • Breann: “If you have fun being uncomfortable, come my way.” (24:24)

4. Codependency and Relationship “Stickiness” (29:24 – 35:49)

• Codependency is on a spectrum; most people are “codependent-ish.”
• Examples and Signs:
  • People-pleasing that leads to self-abandonment.
  • Chronic indecision or outsourcing one’s desires (“What do you want for dinner?” syndrome).
  • Neediness versus having legitimate needs—voicing needs is healthy; relying on a partner for all regulation is not.
• Key Insight:
  • “Being needy” is not simply expressing your needs, but persistently relying on someone else to fill your own unmet needs.
• Healing Codependency:
  • Bringing attention back to one’s self, learning to self-soothe, seeking external support (like therapy or Codependents Anonymous), and recognizing patterns.

5. Communication Skills for Healthy Partnership (37:33 – 41:03)

• Vulnerability & Curiosity:
  • Speak from your experience (“I feel...,” “My story is...”) rather than blaming or projecting on your partner.
  • Share vulnerable feelings to inspire openness rather than defensiveness.
• Concrete Tools:
  • Practice clear agreements—e.g., “I’ll be back in 20 minutes after I take space.”
  • Listen with curiosity, not judgment; take notes of where you’re triggered, not just what your partner says (66:36).
• Memorable Quote:
  • Breann: “Your feelings carry the energy that you’re not blaming the other person….I’m not here to blame you. I’m just having a human experience.” (41:03)

6. Attachment Styles: Not Just Labels, but a Spectrum (44:10 – 48:13)

• Attachment patterns (secure, anxious, avoidant, disorganized) are fluid and context-dependent.
• Breann: “I like to look at attachment as we’re dancing along a spectrum.”
• One may respond differently in various relationships, or even with the same partner over time.
• Amy: “For me, my last relationship [I was] with a highly avoidant person… I was constantly anxious. Not a good way to be.” (47:05)
• Attachment work is an ongoing process and applies to all types of relationships, not just romantic connections.

7. Navigating Attachment in Action (52:28 – 59:41)

• For Avoidants:
  • Get curious: “What are you actually afraid of?” Experiment with tolerating discomfort and gradually widening the window for emotional presence.
  • Communicate clearly about taking space (“I’m going for a walk; I’ll be back in an hour”), to support anxious partners.
• For Anxious Types:
  • When flooded, practice self-regulation: breathwork, grounding, connecting with friends, sensory comfort (tea, touch, movement), and even keeping a “survival list” for crisis moments.
• On Mutual Responsibility:
  • Each partner is ultimately responsible for their own emotion regulation. “Your job is not to [be the one] that makes them go back to themselves.”

8. Breann’s Top Tips for All Relationships (63:21 – 68:10)

• Humility:
  • Enter the relationship without “me vs. you” polarization.
• Curiosity:
  • Maintain awe and wonder for your partner’s inner world, even after decades together.
• Selflessness:
  • Hold space for your partner’s experience and embrace their “perfect imperfections.”
• Practice “listening without responding”—taking notes on your own triggers as your partner shares, then reflecting back what you heard.
• Ask questions—curiosity as a form of connection (68:16).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amy (06:14): “You’re not broken. There are ways to reconnect with your body and experience pleasure, love, relationships, safety again.”
• Breann (18:13): “The health of our sex, the health of our relationships, really determine the health of our lives.”
• Amy (24:18): “I find it pretty unattractive if someone isn’t into growth of some sort .... but I also find it really attractive if people are comfortable with discomfort, which is not an easy thing to do.”
• Breann (63:45): “Curiosity … it’s gold. If we could really feel curiosity as in awe, like as if you’re opening and expanding your mind beyond what you know.”
• Breann (65:41): “When we’re on our side of the fight or whatever’s happening, we have tunnel vision and we’re missing this other person’s entire perception experience. … Can I be curious enough to get outside of what I think is happening?”

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Timestamps for Essential Segments

• 04:00 – 15:41 – Healing After Trauma & Reclaiming Sexuality
• 16:32 – 19:19 – Meet Breann Starr (Background & Approach)
• 21:03 – 29:24 – Defining HOT, Healthy Relationships
• 29:24 – 35:49 – Decoding Codependency & Autonomy
• 37:33 – 41:03 – Communication Skills for Connection
• 44:10 – 48:13 – Attachment Styles on a Spectrum
• 52:28 – 59:41 – Navigating Real-Life Attachment Triggers
• 63:21 – 68:10 – Top Practices: Humility, Curiosity, Selflessness
• 66:36 – Listening Exercise: Tracking Your Own Triggers

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Useful Practices & Takeaways

• For Healing After Sexual Trauma: Seek holistic, body-based modalities if possible. Go slow, start small, and never push your boundaries alone.
• For All Relationships:
  • Engage in self-inquiry and personal growth.
  • Practice honest, vulnerable, non-defensive communication.
  • Foster curiosity and humility—keep seeing your partner anew.
  • Check in with your own triggers, not just your partner’s words or feelings.
  • Give and receive space; individuation enhances connection.
• If Struggling with Codependency or Attachment:
  • Seek therapy, bodywork, somatic practices, or peer support (e.g., Codependent Anonymous).
  • Take responsibility for your own emotional regulation.

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About Breann Starr & Further Resources

• Work with Breann:
  • Offers coaching to singles, couples, and individuals on attachment, relationship dynamics, sexuality, and more.
  • Specializes in helping women with anxious attachment, but works across the spectrum.
  • Contact:
    • embodiedliberation.love
    • breannstarr.com (with two r’s in Starr)
  • Free introductory consult available.

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This episode is packed with practical insights, real stories, and therapist-approved tools for anyone wishing to make their relationships both HOT and healthy. If you want more, check out past episodes on trauma, attachment, and conscious relating at shamelesssex.com.

Transcript

[Brianne Star]

When we're on our side of the fight or whatever's happening, we have tunnel vision and we actually like, are missing this other person's entire perception experience. And that's where, like, the curiosity is woven in there is like, can I be curious enough to get outside of what I think is happening?

[Amy]

I'm Amy.

[April]

I'm April.

[Amy]

Certified sex educators, sexperts of the year and best selling authors.

[April]

And we're on a mission to help you have more spicy, connected and amazing shameless sex.

[Amy]

Welcome to the shameless sex revolution. We're so close, it's like we have our own language. We're making sex and relationships shameless. To learn more, go to shamelesssex.com and

[April]

for 15% off some of our favorite sex toys, use code [e-mail] you are

[Brianne Star]

listening to a pleasure podcast. For more from our sex podcast collective,

[Amy]

visit pleasurepodcasts.com well, hello everyone.

[April]

Hey everybody.

[Amy]

Welcome back to the shameless sex podcast. This is mid June Pride month, at least here in California or Santa Cruz.

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Happy pride.

[April]

Happy pride. I love pride.

[Amy]

I love pride all around. I love rainbows. I love love. I love joy. I love connection. So what's not to love?

[April]

I love the gays.

[Amy]

I love rainbows. This episode is with dear friend and repeat guest, Brianne Star. She guested on the show maybe only two months ago.

[April]

She's local.

[Amy]

Yeah, she's local.

[April]

You've known her since you were.

[Amy]

I've known her since I was 13.

[April]

You're a baby.

[Amy]

I know.

[April]

I've seen pictures of you two together when you were.

[Amy]

Awkward phase.

[April]

You're not awkward now, but you do not age.

[Amy]

I had a major awkward phase.

[April]

You lost. You lost your. The headgear.

[Amy]

Well, I did. I don't have the headgear anymore. I grew breasts. I was flat chested, I had braces, and I was shorter than everyone. And now I'm a little over five nine. So are you. Really? Isn't that weird? So this episode, she guessed it before, was about hand sex, meaning masturbation, using your hands on other humans for pleasure. And this episode, we're talking about healthy, hot relationships. Codependency, which, if you don't think that you have any codependency in you. I love the term. I forgot who's did it. It's. He was a guest in our show. Oh my God, what is his name? Early on, Jason something. And it. He talks about codependent ish. Like everyone is codependent ish has codependent ish. But some people experience extreme codependency which can be harmful in your relationships and also working with your attachment issues and that of your partner. So this is going to apply to everyone. And she is amazing. She is dramatic sex and relationship coach. She is a sexological body worker. So yeah, check this out. It's spicy. It's fun.

[April]

In person.

[Amy]

It's. And it's in person, so the audio quality is crisp. Santa Cruz is quite hard to do in person stuff. Everyone. Let's see. Coming up, our couples retreats. One has been sold out for months.

[April]

I'm hyping that.

[Amy]

I like the way you do that.

[April]

Couples retreat.

[Amy]

Couples retreat. One is already hot. The second one. So one sold out, one is half full. These are in October 2026. Go to shameless sex.com to learn more.

[April]

There's only a couple spots left.

[Amy]

There's only a couple spots off it' go to. They're in Palm Springs area. You will learn a lot. They are sexy. And if you are looking to reconnect with your partner or have hotter sex, you will leave with that.

[April]

Don't miss out.

[Amy]

Don't miss out.

[April]

It's a vacation.

[Amy]

It's a domestic sexy cation. But it's not an orgy or a gang bang.

[April]

No, no. You will feel comfortable, safe, and you will leave feeling like a better human. Happy happiness will be written.

[Amy]

You're probably more in love with your partner. All right, so ready for sex Question. Okay. I'm giving a trigger warning to everyone on this one because it does involve some sexual assault and violence. So if you need to prepare yourself for this or maybe not listen to this question, then I'm giving you permission to do that. And take a deep breath. If you don't have practices for if or when you get triggered. Deep long breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth is very helpful. Ready? Here we go. This is from a woman in Scandinavia. There's no easy way to ask this question, so here it goes. What are your best tips? To get my groove back after someone I trusted raped me while sleeping. It was such a violation on my self worth and confidence, it almost broke me. He was a professional athlete at the gym I worked at and we became good friends. Or so I thought. I live in Scandinavia and talk occasionally with a psychologist via teams. But this has been a difficult topic. I used to be a part of a BDSM community and I have not for the last five years due to this. I miss being shameless and enjoying sex. I can pleasure myself with My hands. But toys, penetration and, and involving anyone else is triggering and I miss enjoying my toys. I recently felt ready for dating and started talking to someone and shared my trauma. And due to his discomfort, he ended things. How can I approach this kind of topic with someone I'm dating? And how can I get my mojo back? Thank you for sharing. Being so raw, honest. I know this.

[April]

Vulnerable.

[Amy]

Vulnerable.

[April]

That's a deep and heavy situation. I'm so sorry. I'm really sorry that that happened.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[April]

And to anyone out there that's been a victim of you, Jim guy, I'm

[Amy]

gonna say it because seriously. Yeah.

[April]

It sucks.

[Amy]

And especially it sounds like a situation where you thought you were safe. I mean, I mean this is rape, right? I mean there's situations where this happens where often where people that, you know, you think you're close with someone or you're safe or your friends or, or, or even like in love and then this kind of goes down.

[April]

Also you were sleeping, which is such a violation of, of all the things. Being awake is of course a violation

[Amy]

too, but being sleep its own trauma.

[April]

Yes. So I, I am there. I will say you're not alone. That, that's something that I will. I. I have so many friends and people that I know and folks that have written to us about being victims of sexual assault. So you're not alone. And it's going to be a really long journey before. Right. It's doing some work before you can, you can't turn that off. And your body keeps a score. We know that from work that we've read other researchers and doctors have done. They've done a lot of work around how your body stores trauma. And looking at people that have been victims of sexual assault, it's, it's, it sucks, man. I hate this.

[Amy]

And you're not broken. And there are ways to reconnect with your body and experience pleasure, love, relationships, safety. Again, on the note of talking to other people. So you know, you're dating and you're meeting new potential lovers and sharing, hearing about your trauma. I personally think, and I don't know what the case is, I maybe you shared this Like 5 dates in this person's like still can't handle it. But. So first of all, if that person can't handle it, they're not right for you anyways. Right. Because they're not equipped to hold such tender space. And you need someone that can do that and a lot of people can. So don't be discouraged. This is just one person a lot of people can do A lot of people can. Yeah, but this is one person who can't. Right. So this is, you know, their loss and just not a good fit. But for what my advice would be, I don't know. When sharing your trauma with someone, I would wait till you really feel like you know the person. Not like, you know, five months in, but like, wait till, like, date three, four, five. You know, when you're like, okay, we got a thing going on here. I feel like there's a deep connection. Like there's something going, going. We're built, maybe building towards. Not like this, well, building, I guess. Like, this isn't just like, going to be a temporary thing. When you start to have those signs that there's more there and that involves you. Him, or I don't know if it's him. Right. I don't know if you said him did. Whatever. It involves you and this other person. Yeah. Said he. Sharing vulnerable things. This is like. If vulnerable was like a scale, this is like super high. So, like, we're gonna call this one a 10. Like, starting to share things that are like a 5, 6, 7. Like, when I was a kid, I used to pee the bed. You know, stuff like that that is a little less involved in the relationship or would have an effect on the relationship. I'm not saying not to share the things, but make sure you have some foundation there with that person and you're feeling some sort of closeness and safety with them. And you want to know that the person is safe and safe meaning can this person talk about really vulnerable stuff? Right. Like, and you can test that, like, by talking about other vulnerable things. You know, like, how do you feel about, I don't know, like, some other. Some political topics or whatever. What. Something that you feel like is a little edgy and female reproductive rights.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly.

[Amy]

Or like, communication skills.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

Like, I mean, I like to know, like, hey, what. When I'm kind of a part of the interview process with people that I'm dating, if it's going to go anywhere, it's like, what do you do when you're really triggered? Like, what's your response to usually? Are you like a runner? And. And you can kind of tell when the way people respond, if they're open to even talking about the vulnerable, tender stuff. If they avoid talking about that to me, that's not gonna be a good fit for me, because I'm all about that. And for you, you're really going to need someone that is safe in that way, that can talk about these things. Because part of Your healing is going to have. Be having new experiences with safe people. So being cautious about. Around sharing your body with people only when you feel safe. And if you don't feel safe, you stop, you press pause, or you don't spend time with that person again or you have conversations about that with them and educate them. So that's kind of part of like checking things out before you dive in and share this really important and tender thing for you.

[April]

I would. I think that's great advice and I think someone that is. She's saying she's seeing a psychologist, right. Via teams and something that would be helpful. And I know you live in Scandinavia, so I'm assuming there would be people that are well trained in coaching or helping or therapizing or working with folks that have suffered from acts of sexual violence and getting a trained professional specifically in that realm. And body workers. I think that is something that we've had on our show before. Right. We've spoken like Brianne.

[Amy]

Well, Brianne, sexological body workers, they do hands on healing, erotic healing, right? Yeah.

[April]

And if that's. I don't know, in Scandinavia because.

[Amy]

Because you can do stuff online though, right? So like, like someone like Brianne or other sexological body workers or other holistic sex and relationship coaches often can work online and guide you over a screen. To use your own hands on your body as part of healing is better in person. They probably are sexological body workers in scand.

[April]

I don't want to make an assumption because I don't know where in Scandinavia they're based. I'd think that they would be advanced to have that, to access to that. But if not, then you have access to folks that have been in our show, including Brienne on this episode.

[Amy]

And even if it's not hands on body work like sexological bodywork, talk therapy is still is going to be helpful for you because part of dealing with this trauma is sharing it and not just holding it in your. In your own being. But more embodied therapy will probably be helpful because it sounds like what you're doing over teams, you're saying it's kind of hard. Like it doesn't seem like a lot's happening. More embodied means you're sharing this, but then that person that's working with you like this is something Brianne does. Also, if you listen to episode 215, it's called sex, Relationships and Healing After Trauma with Darshana Avila, she does this kind of work too. When you talk about your trauma, they're like, okay, where do you Feel that in your body. And they're kind of like they bring you back into the parts of your body that feel the trauma, the tenderness, the pain, the walls, all those things. And that is far more experiential and powerful than just talking about the thing. So you're getting both. So I would find else like a Brienne or a Darshana to do this work with.

[April]

It's also something because in the question they said, she said that she talks to this psychologist occasionally. And it might take a little bit more than occasional, like, more to move. Not that you have to move through, but to work with.

[Amy]

Yes, right.

[April]

Work within what you have the trauma that's stored in your brain and your body. And it's unfortunately, I know it says like five years has already gone by and unfortunately, maybe it's going to take more time. I wish there was something we could say like eat this pill or this switch to trip this switch and you're going to be healed.

[Amy]

I have so many things I wish that my body and brain would just forget, like that never happened. But it doesn't work that way. Instead, it's. It's really informing you of your future self. And unfortunately, sometimes this happens in really shitty circumstances or ways. But you know, what can come from this, now that you're also working on getting your mojo back, is it could be this, like, reinventing of you as a sexual being in a really positive way, maybe even in a more informed and embodied way than you were before the trauma. Not saying that this trauma should have happened, but, you know, this stuff is possible with this kind of work. In our book, we have a whole chapter Am I normal? And a chapter Am I broken? And I believe it's Am I broken? We do talk about sexual trauma in there and other ways to heal. We have podcast episodes, like I said, episode 215, but we have a ton of them. If you just go to shamelessex.com, you look up the word trauma, you'll see other episodes like Jiminika. Yeah, Eborn. She recently did an episode that was also about healing after trauma because it's so common.

[April]

The good news is there's so many tools and even we've worked with who's been in our show a bunch, hypnotherapy, and Dr. Nan Wise, who would be a good resource as well. I think tapping into the resources that are out there for this specific, this trauma that exists in your body and.

[Amy]

And don't do it alone.

[April]

Don't do it alone. And know that you're not alone. And really grateful that you shared this with us, because we're here for you with the tools that we have in our. In our tool belt. And hopefully you can tap into the amazing educators and doctors and therapists that have been in our show and know that you are a beautiful human that deserves pleasure, and you will be able to have that in time. So.

[Amy]

And you're having it with your hands. The part about, you know, penetration, which maybe it's even you penetrating yourself is traumatic. That makes sense. And even toys, right? You've kind of. You're saying, I missed my toys. And so I don't know exactly why the toy part. Like, I don't know why. Maybe the toys or toys are a part of the trauma. I'm not sure. But you can dip your toes back into these things. So you've already done that with hands, right? I can use my hands externally. That feels safe. But when I move on to toys, penetration, or another human that's edgy. So the key to this is whenever you move on to those things, you start slow, small. Don't go big for the big old dildo right away. Like, see what it is to use something that you know is small and light. Or maybe it doesn't remind you, doesn't seem familiar to what the. The trauma. And an intentional setting can be helpful. So, like, maybe grounding down and taking a bunch of deep breaths and getting into your body and telling your bot, telling yourself, I am safe. I am here with me. I'm a safe person. And, you know, maybe you whip out your magic wand or whatever lovely toy you're using and then starting to use that. And the minute you start to feel something like a trauma response, stop what you're doing. Because. Because you also are teaching yourself that you're safe, right? So if your body is, like, not safe, you need to listen to your body. Okay, I stop or I pause. And then maybe your is like, okay, let's go slow again. So it's like this listening to your body as if it's another person or a lover, and you're retraining yourself. Um, and then lastly, if. When you're doing those things, whether it's having sex with a new partner or you're or yourself in ways that are triggering, have trauma support someone like a friend or someone that you can reach out to if something is like, whoa, that really was a lot. Or super traumatic. Because again, you don't need to do

[April]

this alone and educate yourself as much as you can with the resources that are out There.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[April]

Read the books, look at the research and know that you are able to have the ability to have pleasure again. Know that. You got that. You got that.

[Amy]

Screw your gym guy.

[April]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy]

It's true though. I'm serious. I'm laughing at it because I think it's true. That person is someone that probably should go themselves.

[April]

Yeah. Wow. Bye, Gemma Guy. And listen up to this bio. Whoever's out there listening and if they. This human that wrote the question to us, if you're listening right now, check out Brianne's work because she is very skilled at what she does and she could also help you. So you ready for the bio?

[Amy]

Yep.

[April]

And thanks again to the listener. Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Really?

[April]

Thank you. All right. Brianne Star is a somatic relational and intimacy mentor and founder of Embodied Liberation, a body based approach to transforming how we experience intimacy, love, sex, and relationships and life. She helps people break free from repetitive draining patterns that show up across their relationships and inner world. To learn more about Brianne's work, visit Embodied Liberation Love.

[Amy]

All right, everyone, it is interview time and this interview is live. No, it's actually not live.

[Brianne Star]

Sorry.

[Amy]

That's because you're hearing this later, is in person and Chip is not here. Once again, she is slammed. It is me, myself and I. And Brianne Star, she's back. So exciting. She guessed it on the show maybe two months ago. What do you.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, it's about two months ago. March, I think.

[Amy]

March. Okay, so two months ago. And it was a episode on hand sex, handies, HJ's, masturbation, all the fun things. And, and this episode. And so anyways, that was her first time podcasting ever. So exciting. I was like, you're gonna nail it. You're a great public speaker. And that episode did speak to her craft because you are a sexological body worker. So you do some hands on work with people. And you're also a somatic sex and relationship coach. And so this episode we are focusing on relationships. What is a healthy relationship? We don't want to say what is an unhealthy relationship in the sense that like, like it's. There's a standard for that because everyone is really different. We're also going to talk about codependency, attachment styles, what they are, how to work with them, what are the common issues in relationships? All the things. And so this applies to anyone and everyone. So welcome. Brianne, we already did the intro that you weren't here for, so people already heard a little bit about you in the intro. But can you please Share a little bit more with me and the listeners and the dogs that are here in the room about how you got into the field of sexuality and also working with people around their relationships stuff.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. I mean, everything for me around this path really started with my own journey.

[Amy]

Yeah. As it does.

[Brianne Star]

And just my deep curiosity around relationships, Love, sexuality, I think they're the top most important aspects of life. And the health of our sex, the health of our relationships really determine the health of our lives.

[Amy]

It really does. Yeah. And part of that is your relationship with yourself. Do you feel like. So we've done a lot of the same trainings and you've done some other trainings that I haven't done as well. You know, we did both did Somatica for sex and relationship coaching. Both did Hakomi. Do you feel like you chose to do those trainings part of the reason is because of your own challenges within relationship?

[Brianne Star]

Absolutely. I mean, of course there was like a little spark of like, oh, that sounds like a fun thing to explore. But inside of all those trainings, you're really doing your own personal work first.

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's like, I hate the term two birds, one stone, but I can't. Can't find a better one. But it. You. It's like I, I was like, wait, I get to heal and work on me and get a career and make money and like work with clients, which is what you do now. You see clients.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly. And you.

[Amy]

And you work with women and couples.

[Brianne Star]

Yes.

[Amy]

Right. Okay.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, primarily. And I have, I have a few male clients as well.

[Amy]

Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, she's awesome. I've worked with Brianne personally, but she's a friend, so I don't have to pay her. One of the perks. And I said this on the last time you were on the show. I've worked with you for all you know, you're like one of my go tos. Like, Brianne, help. How do I do this thing, no matter what it is, and especially relationships. And in speaking to relationships, you're this for both me and my partner. And so, like, you'll get calls from me, like, what do I do about my partner? And then you'll get calls from him. What do I do about Amy? And you're really. This is a lot of people, therapists or coaches find this hard to stay neutral. You're really good at that. You're not like. Because you're like, I love both of you, but you don't. You're not like, well, I'm gonna choose. I'm Gonn tell Amy's partner to suck it up, because I love Amy more. And you probably know how to bring this to clients too, which is a skill.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. I think it's my capacity to see a lot of nuance. Yeah. And to be able to see all sides of the stories, even the ones that you both can't see.

[Amy]

Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot that the couple such. And I know this from experience. Being that in that couple we can't see. That's what makes it so helpful. Like when people are. Have an aversion to working with a coach or a therapist, and a lot of it is because they think that means they're broken or they've had some shitty experiences, the people they worked with in the past. What I would say is, like, if you can just not focus on the negative, if you are someone that really needs it, not focus on those things. Right. And stay open to the idea that having a third party is inviting in someone who can help you see what you can't see or help you undo what you can't undo.

[Brianne Star]

Yes, exactly.

[Amy]

It's hard to do in the relationship. So, okay, let's talk about what a healthy relationship is. And I already kind of said there isn't one way to be healthy and unhealthy. But maybe let's just talk more about, like, qualities and things. Like, what do you think makes for a healthy relationship?

[Brianne Star]

I mean, the first thing is for me is that each person is committed to doing their own work.

[Amy]

Their own. So like on themselves, not just on the relationship.

[Brianne Star]

For each person to show up and know themselves, be intimate with themselves, and so that they know that whatever they're bringing into the relationship, I think that is the primary first piece.

[Amy]

Totally. Yeah. So have you been in relationships with someone who wasn't doing the work or wasn't willing to.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amy]

How did that go?

[Brianne Star]

Not so well.

[Amy]

I have been there too. When I work with clients, it's almost always if it's a couple, they're both willing to do the couples work. But I've seen often you probably. You have to wear where one or both. They're not interested in this. The solo work. And you can't like, force someone to do it.

[Brianne Star]

Nope. They have to be driven on their own.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

You can encourage it, but if somebody's not really devoted to their own personal work, it's. There's nothing you can do.

[Amy]

Yeah. I've received this question a lot. Like, how do I get my partner to start doing this? How Do I get my partner to do therapy, to work on themselves? And my answer is like, well, you can't, but you can lead by example, by you doing your own work, and you're kind of shining the light, like, hey. And then they can experience your positive shifts and changes and maybe have a little bit of that. Like, oh, I want that.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. And truthfully, like, if there's one person in the relationship that's doing the work, it will change part of the relationship.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And it might change it where you stay together or might change it where you're at. The divide's getting even bigger.

[Amy]

Yeah, exactly. You could be like, like, I'm all expanded and grown over here, and you're staying in the same place. So it could be a, like a make or break it thing, right? Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And it's honest.

[Amy]

It really is. And it's not like we're not saying you need to be in therapy once a week forever. Like, not like that. I. I go in waves. When I work with people, I'm like, you know, dedicated, maybe for six months, and then things feel chill, so then I take a break. And then when shit hits the fan in a new way or the same way, I'm like, I'm back.

[Brianne Star]

Right. And I think it's. It's not necessarily even what we do, but it's just holding the mindset of curiosity and openness to exploring ourselves. So you don't have to be in therapy every week, but as long as you're holding an awareness of, like, you're an imperfect human, we all are, and we're growing every single day. So can we see ourselves in this in a way where we're like, okay, yeah, I'm. I'm open to growing into seeing myself differently.

[Amy]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, and part of that's just being realistic as well, about, well, what is true and your relationship. And, like, I find it, like, personally pretty unattractive if someone isn't into growth of some sort. And it doesn't have to be therapy, but it. Whether, you know, learning or, you know, all those things, like, just expanding beyond where you are now. And I know change is scary, right? Like, change. And it can be really uncomfortable, but I also find it really attractive if people are comfortable with discomfort, which is not an easy thing to do.

[Brianne Star]

That's so hot.

[Amy]

Yeah. Yeah. She's got a smile over. She's like, oh, yeah, that's like, better than porn over there.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly. If you. If you're. If you have fun being uncomfortable, come my way.

[Amy]

Yeah, just give me a call. 55555.

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So when I think of other aspects of healthy relationships would be, like, some form of working well together and this. It's. When I say some form, there's not one. Right. Formula, but, like, in the way that you communicate and operate in the world, that meshes well. Right. Both be people who are, like, a little bit, I don't know, like, overly passionate and explosive, but you both have that, and it works really well together. Whereas for me, if I was with someone like that, I'd be like, what the is going on? So intense. This is not work.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

So it's like a shared way or. Yeah, a shared way of how you operate in the world.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's. It's like, you know, do you both like to dance the same dance?

[Amy]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Like, you can't have someone doing hip hop and then also, like, the tango.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Okay, well, how does that work?

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

I don't know. Now you put them together, you got a whole hybrid going on.

[Brianne Star]

Maybe at the end of the day it'll work.

[Amy]

Yeah, maybe another one. Who? Someone said this on our podcast, like, in the first year. They're talking about core values and how important having shared cord values is. And cord values are, like, the things that won't change in terms of your belief system. So if your core value is like, like, I'm. I want to get married and have kids, then find being in a partnership with someone who has the same core values is really important. So if you're single and dating, get clear on your core values and make sure that the people that you really align with, well, really align in those. In those things. Whereas another core value to like, for me, a core value isn't like reading. You know, it's a hobby.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

Hobbies can be something that we. They. We share and also don't share.

[Brianne Star]

Right, right. Yeah. And core values, to me, it's like there's texture to core values because you can say, I really care about the environment, but then one person can. Could go to the extreme level of it, and somebody could actually be a little bit more, like, lenient about it.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

So it's like. And there can be flexibility and core values. They're not just like a hard, fast rule.

[Amy]

Yeah, exactly. And then also, with what you're saying, sometimes our differences can really complement the relationship. So the differences can pull us apart and we can. Can feel too different from each other. Like, now we can't even relate or we're constantly battling, or we can have these differences where it's like, okay, you do this thing and I do this thing that's very different, but it makes it so as a whole, this works really well. Yeah, yeah, I've seen that.

[Brianne Star]

Actually.

[Amy]

I just worked with some clients where I saw that in. In them and I was like, this makes sense. It's so different from each other, but it's almost as if one of you didn't have this other thing. It wouldn't. This whole relationship wouldn't work.

[Brianne Star]

Right, right. And then another key component to this is just communication.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Because you can have differences and so there's communication mixed with like, how much can we accept our partner.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And communicate around these differences.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so. And a lot of people who are listening, communication is one of their biggest struggles. And we'll talk a little bit about that as we talk more about. About tools because that is one of the. The biggest tools here for, what do you know, air quotes. Healthy relationships. One thing that I've experienced that I think is also really common in long term relationships is you already spoke to curiosity. But also adding to that, people kind of start taking either their partners for granted or stop really valuing their beliefs or their word. Like maybe because there's times when dishonesty happened or I don't know, you're just so used to them that you don't really take them seriously anymore. And I think that's really sad.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. I think that kind of leads to respect.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

Yeah. Respecting that. The person that you're in relationship with.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Because I mean, it's easy in the beginning of relationship for things to feel shiny and new and exciting and then we become. It's becomes just normal.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

You know, it's like the sky is blue and we all know that, but we're not in awe of it.

[Amy]

Yeah. Yeah. Whereas the first time you see like, whoa.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amy]

Or like it rains for like a month straight and you don't get to see the blue sky. And then you do, and you're like, oh my, there it is.

[Brianne Star]

Right. So like, I think a important piece is like finding an appreciation for your partner every day.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Like an awe of them, whatever that is. Like, okay, what can you love about them today?

[Amy]

Yeah. And then let them know too.

[Brianne Star]

Yes.

[Amy]

I love also with what one thing you're talking about with the blue skies, thinking of Esther Perez talks about the importance of individuation and attachment. Right. So like, and we already talked about that. Like someone doing their own work.

[April]

Work.

[Amy]

But so with the blue sky I was thinking about, like, taking space actually is a really healthy thing. Like, not necessarily like, I'm leaving you for a year, but, like, I'm going away for the weekend with my friends or I'm going to take today just for me, or these three hours for me.

[Brianne Star]

Yes.

[Amy]

And it creates not only newness and mystery, but, like, that autonomy. And then when you come back together, you have more to connect on. Like, here's all the cool things that happened last two hours.

[Brianne Star]

Right. And this is kind of where we can talk about, like, codependency or, like the merging with which. Yeah. Which can muddy the waters of polarity and desire and awe.

[Amy]

Yeah. I forgot who it is. Oh, Jason Gaddis. And he had the show. He started something like the relationship school or something, but he had a podcast. I forgot the name of the podcast. I don't know if he's still doing, but he guested on our show and was talking about codependency. And he likes the term codependent ish. Because what he says is we often talk about codependency, like, it's such an extreme. You're either codependent or you're not. But instead he's like, I like to think that we're all a little codependent ish. And also we need to be, you know, as children, we need to, like, attach and. And need. And children, like, we. They project onto their parents all the time. It's just kind of natural human behavior. But then sometimes it gets stuck in a way that could be problematic.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, right. Yeah. I love that. I love that there's a spectrum.

[Amy]

Have you, have you ever identified as a codependent person?

[Brianne Star]

I've identified different stages in my life, in my growth as being really codependent. And certain relationships bring more of that out because I think codependency can be easily woven inside of attachment styles. And so. Yes, of course. Like a. Yeah.

[Amy]

So what did that look like? Like, for people? Because some people are experiencing codependency either when. And just they're just not recognizing it. Right. They don't even know that that's what it. What it is. So when you were experiencing any form of codependency, whether you felt like your partner had a codependent attachment to you or you with them. Like, what are some examples of what that can look like?

[Brianne Star]

I mean, I could just name off, you know, based on, like, people pleasing.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Of a self abandonment. Those are, you know, let's see, what else is there?

[Amy]

People pleasing and self abandonment kind of go to Together. Right. Like self abandonment is like a result of people pleasing and people pleasing. I'm going to think of our dear friend. I won't say her name, but who says. One of our teachers who says everything can be medicine and if it's used that way, like used properly. So like being a people pleaser can be something that is good and healthy. Until I lose myself.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people pleasing, it's like, well, it's as with everything, like underneath. What is the why? Yeah, why are we people pleasing? Is it because we're trying to fill a void of feeling enough, wanted, belonging?

[Amy]

Not abandoned.

[Brianne Star]

Not abandoned. Right. But then we can also have the genuine desire to want to make other people feel really good in our presence and want to give and want to be in service and love and expression. So it's, you know, all of these topics can, can have their, their shadow and then they can have the benefit, like the positive.

[Amy]

Totally. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's. It just really depends on, you know, the person and what's happening.

[April]

Right.

[Amy]

One thing I think about when I with codependency is there's also just people who are like indecisive and, but, but you know those partners where you're like, I don't. What do you want every day? Like, I don't know, what do you want? Right. Like, and so maybe they're actually just indecisive. Maybe they're like a full blown libra. I don't know. Libras are known to be indecisive. I'm not an astrologer. Yeah, we love you Libras. But also maybe there's an aspect of, of the, the inner being, you know, the inner voice saying, I don't want to make a choice because what if it's the wrong choice? And then I, and I want to, but and I want to make sure they get, my partner gets the right. Like this is like the inner child voice. Like I want to make sure they get what they want so then they still love me and I'm not bad and I don't lose out. And like what if I choose typhoon food and the Thai food is bad? And like you're probably not even thinking these things, but it's like an operating system.

[Brianne Star]

Right. It's the automatic response to outsource somebody else's desire.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Because it, it's like it keeps you safe.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah. And then I think of also neediness. And you and I also have another shared friend who used to have a major hard time with partners being Needy. And I would say to you, I don't know if you know who I'm talking about, but I would say to her, it's a woman. I'd say, you're confus having needs with being needy. Just because a partner says. Like an example would be, I will talk about this person lovingly. They. She would bring friends to festivals, often new partners to festivals, and they're at a festival with her and they don't know a lot of people. They've never been to a festival, and so they want to be by her side. Right. And she. And to me, that wasn't. That doesn't. Isn't itself codependent.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

That's like, hey, this is kind of scary and familiar. And you brought me and I like you and I want to spend time with you. And she'd be like, oh, they're so needy.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

That's different.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, that's very, very different.

[Amy]

Codependent would be, you go to that party or that thing and maybe you do know people. Maybe you have been to festivals before, but you can't leave your partner's side or you don't want your partner to leave your side.

[Brianne Star]

Right. Yeah, yeah. That's one expression of codependency for sure.

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

You know, I'm talking about sad with love and blessings. I remember that. I was like, I think you're confusing because having needs and voicing them is really important.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

But being needy might. It to me feels like more like a leaky, projecting thing.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. And needy is like. It's like it runs on the line of your. That person is not actually fulfilling themselves. And so they're out. Like, again, they're outsourcing those things from somebody else when they can probably actually fulfill a lot of those on their own.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And be more explicit about what they want.

[Amy]

Yeah. And now the word responsibility is coming up. Right. Like people being ultimately knowing that they are responsible for themselves, just as their partner is responsible for themselves. And what can happen in codependency is this like, blending of that. Like, I can't trust my partner to take care of themselves, so I have to take care of them. Right. There's so many forms of that.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Right.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So if any of you're identifying with any of these things, don't be hard on yourself. If you are someone who does identify with, like, codependency being a major issue for you. There are. I mean, you can work with people like Brianne on this and, you know, coaches and therapists. And there's also coda which is codependency. Anonymous. Like as if codependency is an addiction that does exist as well.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

People have a hard, hard time with that and like they're not able to find their own freedom or autonomy or, or allow that of other people in their lives as well. Yeah, yeah. Codependency, it's a huge one. So let me give you an example, and I'm going to give you an example that will be like a lot of people, a lot of the people that are listening, something that they're living, right? So it's a couple, you know, they're coming to work with you. They have this relationship that, you know, it's like, you know, typical. They have. Actually, no, I'm gonna. Let's do the stay at home. Okay. We have a stay at home mom and then we have the dad who works all day long and he's working all day long and he's super busy and she's at home with the kids and she's texting him like every like two hours, like something like, how are you doing? What's going on? And then when he doesn't respond after, you know, two hours, she thinks the world is like erupting. He doesn't love her or something like that. It's a huge issue. She, she's like, you don't reach out to me enough throughout the day. And then it is some sort of issue at the end of the day. What would you say to those people?

[Brianne Star]

Well, I would first want to chit chat with her.

[Amy]

Chit chat.

[Brianne Star]

And I would just, I would want, I'd get really curious, like, what's, like what's happening inside of her to where she goes from 0 to 100, you know, and creating this story that the whole world is ending because of, you know, what he's doing. So a lot of my focus with relation with relationships and couples is to bring each person back to themselves. Because when we know ourselves, we're inside of ourselves and we are like, we're in the territory of ourselves, then we can then refine how we're responding and reacting to the situation in our relationships.

[Amy]

So instead of he's doing all this, it's like, okay, but let's go, let's focus on you right now.

[Brianne Star]

I always bring it back to the individual, individual first. And of course, if, if there's explicit, obvious behaviors and actions that he's doing that I, I would say, like, that's not fair, man. Like, what are you doing? Of course we can get to the surface level. And. And talk about what needs to change as far as, like, dynamic and agreements around texting and communication. But when I hear somebody's, like, losing their shit because of something, I'm like, what's that about? What's this about? Let's get in there.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And so then for that same couple, and let's bring it to, like, communication skills. So, I mean, you're. And this is. You're talking about, like, you want to really hone in on her and this. That were that in this example of, like, what's really going on for her. But if she were to want to communicate with her partner, not in a way that's like, you need to do more of this for me. Right. Like, but in a way that. Was I doing air quotes over here? Again, healthy or let's say helpful. You know, what could that look like?

[Brianne Star]

Like, well, like an example would be I. I have. I have fear coming up. I feel. I feel these feelings of fear, which the story around them is I'm being abandoned. And that causes me to create stories that you're doing this or this is happening in our relationship. So it's. To me, it's all about owning our experience and expressing it in a vulnerable

[Amy]

way instead of you doing this or making up stories. I always love when people start with something like that. Like, this is my story. Right. This is like, I don't know if this is true, what's going on, but this is the story that I have. Is this true at all?

[April]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. And naming. Naming the vulnerable experience. Because if we come at somebody and we can even name our experience, but it can still be heard by the other person as an attack.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And so it's. It's when we get into vulnerability and into our heart. Hearts and share something. Like, I feel afraid. I'm having fear. And this is my. This is the story that I'm creating. Then it has the other person be inspired to drop in and be like, well, I want to hear what's up versus, like, being attacked. And like, well, you're attacking me. I don't want to hear what you have to say.

[Amy]

Yeah. There's so, so much. And we. Everyone talks about I statements. Use I statements. But. But real. I like the way that you're saying it. And like just coming back to the. The vulnerability and like the actual. The personal feeling here. Because still get mad about you feeling away. Of course they can still be like, I'm so disappointed that you feel this, but. But they get even more upset when you tell them what you think is going on or what they're feeling or what they're doing, if.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly.

[Amy]

Yeah. It's not helpful.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Because ultimately if you say, I'm feeling sad you did this, then their person on the other side is like, oh, now I feel shitty that I'm making you sad. I feel responsible. So it gets muddy. So the more we can own our experience.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Without blaming, shaming or. Or being condescending to the other person. I think that's a more clear avenue for communication. Yeah.

[Amy]

And sometimes just sharing the feelings, sometimes depending on the relationship, you find you don't even need to do other practices to make change. People are like, oh, sad, cool. I'm going to do this different thing, this thing differently now. And it doesn't have to. Doesn't always need to go into like, this big process or like weeks and months of learning new skills. Sometimes it does.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

But yeah, sometimes just that and it's itself is the gold.

[Brianne Star]

Right. Yeah. And I always tell people when you're communicating, your feelings carry the energy that you're not blaming the other person.

[Amy]

Ooh. Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

So carry the energy of like, I'm here because I'm actually curious and I want to share my curiosity as to why I'm feeling this way and that. I'm not blaming you. So if you can imagine embodying that curiosity and that. Yeah. I'm not here to blame you. I'm just having a feeling. I'm having a human experience right now.

[Amy]

Yeah, totally. And some people might still hear blame, blame, blame. I can't get it right. But that's their. That's someone else's stuff.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly.

[Amy]

And like, part of codependency is taking on other people's too, is like, just because your partner is having a hard time, so now you have to have a hard time too. And some people project their hard times, but some people choose to take on other people's hard times when they don't need to.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

I've definitely done that.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

For no reason. Didn't help anyone. Right.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

What about. Okay, so give another example of a couple who their relationship is. They've tried doing the work and the like, they're they're just. They're still stuck. Like this big shift isn't happening. One of them is perfectly content, though. They're like, it's all good. And the other one is like they're pulling their hair out, but they're staying. Right. And so to them, it's like they're staying and waiting for change. But change isn't happening. So they're super frustrated and they keep like wanting to. Wanting something to change, but they're like, keep putting up with whatever. Like, what would you say to those people?

[Brianne Star]

Well, I would ask the person who's seemingly like everything's that everything is okay. I would ask like, do you still want to be in this relationship? Yeah, that's the first thing. Like, I want to get a commitment from both people in agreement that they both want to be in the relationship. Because if they do, then that also comes with like, okay, well here's what you're committing to then.

[Amy]

Yeah, it's like almost like, like a. Not a clean slate. But like, even though you've been together for X amount of time, you're like, okay, now we're actually really choosing it again. Are you. Do you want to.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And then so then you help them to see like what's on the table.

[Brianne Star]

Right? Yeah. Because if they're just. I mean, if they're lolly. Lolly, then I, I would like question like, are you really here?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Because if there's one person who's unhappy in a relationship, there's no way the other person isn't aware of it.

[Amy]

Yeah, totally. At least deep down. Right. They like, they know.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah, they know what's up un. The other person is completely. Is like a really good. Putting on a facade, saying all the right things. But like, if you're present, you can still pick up on the energy for the most part.

[Brianne Star]

Right? Right.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Okay, so then let's bring in attachment styles to all to the mix. Let's make it more complicated. But it doesn't actually. Like I find learning about, knowing about attachment styles actually makes things easier because when I have a. An experience or process that's really confusing related to attachment, I can, can, you know, label it and I know some tools around it or if I'm experiencing something with. With a partner that can make things easier. The book Attached was like the first attachment book I read you probably wasn't that our. Didn't we have to read that for something like Hakomi or something?

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, I think we actually had to read that first. Sematica.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's an easy read.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

[Amy]

I think it even has a quiz in it for you to figure out your attachment style.

[Brianne Star]

Very basic.

[Amy]

Yeah. Because now there's like, there's other things like that have expanded beyond. But it's a good starting point. Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And so in that one, I believe that book is sticking to Four attachment styles. But I think that has been kind of expanded in other systems. Right.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. So how I like to hold attachment is it's on a spectrum.

[Amy]

Okay. Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

I like that, you know, because I, I personally found that when I try and like diagnose myself as like I'm disorganized or I'm anxious.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

It doesn't encompass the entirety of my being and the, and the different relationships that I have in my life. Because some relationships I found myself being anxious at one moment and avoidant at another. And so I like to look at attachment as like we're, we're dancing along a spectrum.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And so the material that comes up, I love the lens of attachment and then the tools that can be brought with attachment work.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

But I, I want to err on the side of not labeling and like

[Amy]

just being stuck in one thing.

[Brianne Star]

Just being stuck in one. Because nobody is that.

[Amy]

Yeah. No one. Yeah, it's, it's. I mean, I personally have experience the ability to be. So there's secure. Well, I mean, if we're going to generalize it based on old attachment theory. Right. Secure. Right. Like I'm cool on my own two feet. We have an issue. There's some sort of like rupture here. I don't need to run or grasp. I can just be here in this. And then anxious. More like, oh my God, things feel really hard. I need to grab. Like I need you. We need to figure this out right now and then avoid it. Oh, things are hard. I need to go hide under a rock over here. I need like a week. I need to not talk to. To you. And then disorganizes chaos. It's all, all the things blending in. That's just the simplified version. And I've experienced all of them totally as well.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, me too.

[Amy]

Yeah. Which feels even crazier. Cuz I was like, wait, am I anxious or am I avoidant? Or like I like, I don't identify as an avoidant person, but I have avoidant moments for sure.

[Brianne Star]

Oh yeah. My last relationship, I was surprised to find out that I was avoidant.

[Amy]

You're like, I was avoidant so often that maybe I am permanently avoidant. Which is not true.

[Brianne Star]

Not true. Because the one before that I was actually totally anxious.

[Amy]

Oh, wow.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

The one before that, you're secure.

[Brianne Star]

That it was. I don't even remember disorganizing.

[April]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah, exactly. So if any people listen, if you can. I think for me that just, that's one of the easier ways to figure out attachment stuff. Is what do you do in relationship when things feel hard? What is your body, your mind, body, spirit. Spirits for initial response.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And there's nothing wrong with whatever that is, but we often have one. One more common one. And it's very dependent on who you're in a relationship with.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly.

[Amy]

So, like, for me, my last relationship, I was with a highly avoidant person who was kind of an energetic punisher. And I was constantly anxious.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Like, most of the time.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Not a good way to be talking about the cortisol. Jesus Christ. And then talk about coda pain, dependency. Right. People were telling me, you need to not be in this relationship. It is bad for you. And I felt addicted to this person. Like I couldn't, you know, I couldn't leave. And you, Brianne, were a big part of me finally being able to leave in a healthy way. God, she's a miracle worker, everyone. But then, so leaving that, I was like, I'm way more anxious than I thought. Maybe. Maybe this is the new me. And now the relationship that I'm in. In. I do experience moments of anxiousness when I feel, you know, an energetic poll. Like if my partner feels like he's pulling away. But it's a moment, it's not like a lifestyle.

[Brianne Star]

Right, Right. Yeah. You know what I love about attachment theory is that it just gives us an opportunity to actually look at how we're wired to relate. Because it doesn't just happen in romantic relationships. It actually happens in life. It's like, it's when a trigger is happening, where do we. Where do we normally, like, lean to?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Are we afraid? Are we. Are we ignoring? Are we dissociating? And so I think it's a. It's a great lens to how we're relating to everything in our lives.

[Amy]

Yeah. So not just romantic.

[Brianne Star]

Not just romantic.

[Amy]

The world.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. It's. It's like tracking how we relate to things that stir our inner material.

[Amy]

Yeah. And then fun fact comes from our childhood.

[Brianne Star]

Where's the button?

[Amy]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, we have a button. I wanted to play with it. Wait, I don't know if that's coming through, so. But I don't have the want, want, want. This is the applause. I don't know if it's working. Anyway, sorry, I got distracted.

[April]

Squirrel.

[Amy]

The squirrel in the room. We're playing with a different recording box here. And realized that there was some fun sounds. Oh, I turned it way down. Wait, I can turn it up. There we go. Anyways, back to the show. Okay. Wa. I already lost it. Oh, Wait, I lost it.

[April]

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[Amy]

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[April]

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[Amy]

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[April]

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[Amy]

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[April]

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[Amy]

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[April]

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[Amy]

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[Brianne Star]

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[April]

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[Amy]

Okay, attachment stuff. We're coming back to this one. You were saying it is a representation of how we're relating to life and general.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Okay, so say I am someone who is recognizing that I'm. I'm not. I've learned. Learned from Brianne. I'm not like, I'm just avoidant, but I'm recognizing I have avoidant tendencies and I'm in a relationship with someone. And I. When. When we have ruptures, when there's a rupture, I don't want to talk about it. I just want to run. I want to shut down. I actually never want to talk about it, but my partner wants to talk about it. What the do I. I do.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Good one.

[Amy]

Common one.

[Brianne Star]

That's a super common one. You know, I like to dig in there. I. I would ask, what are you afraid of?

[Amy]

Yeah, what do you. And being there and having. Yeah. Connecting.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. What is coming up for you with like. And sometimes it's just like, tremendous fear of being entrapped or being overwhelmed. And I can name reasons why this happens. This is all from childhood.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

But, yeah, I would get curious, like, okay, so the desire to flee. Is he here? What are we fleeing from? Let's. Let's find the material that we're running away from.

[Amy]

Or like, what was. Yeah. What was like the original thing you were running away from when you were younger and your system's like, you know, 40 years older and thinks it's happening again.

[April]

Right.

[Brianne Star]

And it's all woven in the nervous system. Right. So it's like our nervous system is. Is what is relating to life and to relationship. And so if we have it in our nervous system that when somebody is asking something of us, then the automatic response, if we have. Have, say, an overbearing mother who just would never gave us space, you know, then it's like the. The desire is to flee from anything that's going to take away our sovereignty or freedom.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah. So you're curious about like, well, what are you afraid of? And then, and I think one, one thing that's helpful is, you know, experimenting with discomfort.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

So like what's comfortable in that scenario is to run.

[Brianne Star]

Yes.

[Amy]

Even though it sounds terrible because like shit's hit the fan, doesn't stop, the relationship's not feeling good. But what feels the most comfortable is to. To you normally do your system wants to do. So trying the uncomfortable, not the like full on freak out, like panic thing. Right. There's something that's uncomfortable, which might mean only taking five minutes away or actually staying, but just being in silence or something. Like playing with what's available.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. You know, it's like in those moments, I would say let's just sit here and feel the discomfort and just actually like see how much you can let yourself feel it before taking action. So. So it's giving the person an invitation to can your nervous system rewire and learn that you're safe right here. And in that is finding voice, communicating, saying, I want to talk to you, but I need to go run for like five minutes. I need to go sit, I need to go do something and so I can regulate myself and then come back to the conversation.

[Amy]

But I'll be back. Right. That's a huge thing. Right. We don't want to continue on the abandonment wounds. Right. But. But like I'm going to take space, but here's when I'll be back. Or here's. Let's try again at this time. Yes. And follow through with it. Everyone don't not come back. And. And like the one thing that really does hurt people a lot. Not. Well, there's a lot of things. But what. But if you just pull away, like you don't do a Brienne's talking about, like communicate, take space, take care of yourself in that space and come back and you just leave. And then you see each other two days later and you act like everything's normal or something like that creates lasting, permanent. Well, semi permanent, because you can work on it. Damage.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. The trust erodes when that happens.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And I will say for the people who out there who are avoidant and who are engaging in relationship with somebody who's anxious, the more specific you can be about what your needs are. And like, even though it's hard be like, I'm gonna go take at least 20 minutes or I'm going to call you in two days. Days at this time. Yeah, that can do tremendous.

[Amy]

Yeah. The anxious person's like, okay, I understand.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Because the anxious experience is like a flooding of anxiety of, you know, of cortisol. And I. When as you're saying that I was thinking of when I was in that old relationship and we were. You and I were in the Hakomi training together. Remember when I stole your keys on accident. This is such a shitty situation, dude. I mean what ended up happening is Brianne was super nice. I was having a. I was full on in a. In a trauma response all day long in a training with that. My partner with the. At that time was in too and I was completely like disassociated but with. Combined with anxiety and she. Brianne was so, so she's like. Because I was had. I drove there with my partner. So we were only at his car. I was. And I'm trapped in this training. It's in the Bay Area, you know, we live two hours away and Brianne's like, you can take my keys. Take a break in the car. And so I take her keys and at the end of the training I just get in the car with my partner, we drive back to Santa Cruz, which is now three hours away because of traffic. And I stole her keys. She's stuck in the big area. Thank you.

[Brianne Star]

Sorry. I totally forget about how I got home.

[Amy]

I. I paid someone on the land that I lived in. The younger guy paid him to drive it. I paid him a hundred bucks because he was really broke too. I was like, this is worth way more than 100 bucks. And he drove the keys too. Gosh, that's amazing because also I didn't sleep the night before though because I was so anxious. So I had a rupture, you know, with this partner who gave me like a laundry list of all the reasons why I'm a shitty partner and they're probably going to leave me. And then we. I don't sleep that night. We go to this training next day and I'm in this like. Like even. And I remember even going to sit in your car which was just a block away felt impossible.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Taking that because of the, the anxiousness that was going through me. And meanwhile this person doesn't get give a. You know, they're just like doing their own own thing. But it's a mix. Like I was in my anxiousness almost like hope waiting for this person to take care of me, which isn't good. Isn't healthy healthy because that's so outside of myself. But I'm so anxious and flooded with anxiety that I don't even know how to take care of Myself, which I think is a common thing when you're talking about for the avoidant person to be as clear. You're helping the anxious person when you're clear. Because they might not even have the ability to. To think clearly.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, when we're triggered, we are not online. We are in survival. The reptilian brain is what's working.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And so at that point it's not. There's no. There's no option to see the spectrum of possibilities. We just go into what we are wired to be protecting ourselves against, which

[Amy]

is brilliant in the. The system. And, and it's letting you know, like, you need to tend to me. Right. But like sometimes. So, so in. In that example, then the Amy of that, like the flooding of anxiousness and the grasping to like waiting for the partner to be ready to work this out and not being able to do anything outside of that. What advice would you have for that

[Brianne Star]

person at that moment? It would just be whatever we can do to regulate your nervous system.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Because without. If I can't. I can't get through to any part of you when you're in the. When you're in that fight or fight mode or just like that sympathetic response. And so it would just be whatever we can do to regulate your. You and to support you.

[Amy]

So what are some examples of like, things. I already know them. But you probably have some that I don't know. Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. I mean, it's comfort being with them. You know, I mean, breath is always a thing.

[Amy]

Breathing, breathing, walking, walking, feeling grass on

[Brianne Star]

feet, a cup of tea with a snack. Friends there reminding them that they're not abandoned, that they're. That, you know, those. Those are the primary things that I would focus on. If you're by yourself, call a friend.

[Amy]

Yeah, totally. And if you're random, like strand out in the woods because I've been there with that same ex partner where I'm like, my main thing is phoning a friend.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And I can't do it. And I'm trapped once again and feeling this thing. And so one thing that I've done is I don't have to have it anymore because I'm not in a relationship like that. What it feels like a healthy. It's not perfect everyone, but, you know, it's very healthy. But I've had to have. Because I'm so flooded. I've had a list. I know that I have a list on my phone of things that I to do, which include things you talked about. Like drink water. Water. But you know what, get your feet on the bare feet on the earth, things like that. Tapping also is helpful, right?

[Brianne Star]

Tapping is great. I mean that's, this is one of the main things I actually work with a lot of my clients on.

[Amy]

You teach them tapping?

[Brianne Star]

Well, not tapping necessarily, but just techniques too. And I call it coming back home to ourselves. So it's like, it's like training the pathways to where we go. Oh, I'm safe in me. I'm safe. Even though it's. There's this scary event happening. My partner is leaving me. It's bringing people back home.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Like my last partnership, you know, he was very, very anxious.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And so I just would always say to him, find a way to come home to yourself like so that you can be in your center. So that. Cause as somebody who's in the avoidant role, it can be overwhelming. And so I don't know how to help him.

[Amy]

But it's also not your job.

[Brianne Star]

It's not my job. Yeah, yeah. But we're in, you know, we're in a partnership so we're just doing our best.

[Amy]

But your job is not to, to be the one that makes him go, go back to himself.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

He ultimately he or anyone has to do that for themselves and we can do that with support. But like relying on a partner to be the one to do it for you, which I've been there, I've been that person. When you're relying on like you need to make me feel good never works.

[Brianne Star]

No. No, it's not. Yeah. And if you are doing that, that's codependency.

[Amy]

Yes, it is. And it's workable. It's very workable. Yeah. Yeah. Hard, hard places to be in. There's a reason why we're not going to talk about secure because secure just means I got this. So I mean, and it doesn't mean I' this like I. It's going to be perfect or there aren't problems. Right. But it's more like we know how to stay in our, in ourselves and tackle this. Or it would work together.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Yeah. It always comes back to relationship, to self.

[Amy]

Yeah. It really, truly, truly.

[Brianne Star]

Like are you being your own parent?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Are you soothing yourself? Are you. What is your inner dialogue like with yourself? What is your relationship to your body?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Like, because those are all tools. Like, I mean I'm such a somatic genetic based person.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

That I always say like let's use the body.

[Amy]

But yeah. It's the way. That is the way the reason why we have it.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. So. And a lot of people who have anxious, attachment and even avoidant. It's like, okay, let's come back to your body. Breath, movement, sensation. Let's come home inside of ourselves. And that's creating a sense of safety. Yeah.

[Amy]

And don't just drink a bunch of tequila, everyone, because that shit's still going to be there when you sober up.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly.

[Amy]

And it's going to feel even worse.

[Brianne Star]

Exactly.

[Amy]

Yeah. Tried that tool many times. It bought me some time and hurt my body a lot. That's. That's a common go to. So. Yeah. All right. Relationships. So we're. We're going to just wrap up soon. But before we learn more about you and all of your offerings, if you could give in, like, whatever one to three, like, nuggets that you wish all of your clients, you know, did actually, like, brought into their relationships. It could be one, two. If there's like some one, like, one to three things.

[Brianne Star]

Things.

[Amy]

We're like, if everyone just did more of this or did this, like, things would be so much better or easier. What would that be?

[Brianne Star]

God, the. Just give words. But the first few things that come up are humility. Right. So like a humble way of. Of holding ourselves in the relationship. I think that removes the them versus me.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Right. Curiosity.

[Amy]

I love curiosity.

[Brianne Star]

I mean, no, it's like.

[Amy]

It's gold.

[Brianne Star]

It's gold. If we could. And it's not just, like, the concept of it, but, like, really feeling curiosity, as in, like, in awe and like. Okay, I'm gonna. Like, as if you're opening and expanding your mind beyond what you know.

[Amy]

Yeah. And as, like. Like doing this, like, daily, even if you've been with the person for 20 years.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And you're seeing the same cycle or loop. Be curious about it as if it's new.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Another one would be, like, selflessness. Right. Like, how we're holding the other person's experience and how we're holding them in there and them being a perfectly flawed human. Perfectly flawed.

[Amy]

I love that. Or Brene Brown. Perfectly imperfect. Right. Like, the flaws are there.

[Brianne Star]

Perfect.

[Amy]

And it's perfect. Exactly.

[Brianne Star]

You chose them because of those flaws.

[Amy]

Yeah, exactly. And it might not mean you're going to be with them forever, or maybe you will, who knows? But, like, there. There's a reason for that too. So.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah. I love that. Once upon a time, we had forgot the name. Nate Klemp and his wife, they wrote a book called the 8080 Marriage, and they were talking about how back in the day it was like 80, 80, 20, meaning much more in men's favor. You know, misogyny and patriarchy and stuff. And now we're a little more in. In 50, 50, like, tit for tat. Like, I did this and you did this. I. I see this all the time with my. With couples. It's super common and unfortunate because it's. And instead they were recommending go do 80, 80, which doesn't add up. It's not mathematically correct, but it's more like, how can you almost always go above and beyond? And. And like, thinking you still considering yourself, but, like, what more can I do here to support the outside world?

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. And it's like really stepping into your partner's shoes.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Because, you know, when we're on our side of the fight or whatever's happening, we have tunnel vision and we actually, like, are middle missing this other person's entire perception experience.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And that's where, like, the curiosity is woven in there, is like, can I be curious enough to get outside of what I think is happening?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

Open to what could else be happening?

[Amy]

Yeah. Yeah. I actually just said this yesterday to someone who was asking, like, do you think my husband sees, you know, blah, blah, blah, or something like that? And I was like, well, know, you. You know, you see some aspect of the relationship. And I was like, no one really does this. But if that person were to look at their life, including the relationship, as if they were like, God, you know, from above the heavens above, looking down, just on this little bubble, then they would be able to see all the things. But no one really looks at life that way or really takes the time to do that. Like, let me step back and really look at the scenario as if I'm not even a part of it. I'm just an observer. And then you can see more even about yourself as opposed to your. Your own opinions and wounding points.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. A fun practice that actually I. I will encourage couples to try is just having one person share their experience and the other person is just listening and they're taking notes about where they're noticing they're activated.

[Amy]

Oh, interesting.

[Brianne Star]

And. And so they're taking.

[Amy]

Sorry, they're taking notes. Not just about what their partner's saying.

[Brianne Star]

No. Yeah. No.

[Amy]

About where their feelings about an activation point.

[Brianne Star]

So the goal is to listen to the other person and not actually. Do not respond. Don't make gestures, nothing. You're just there listening and. But you're tracking where you're getting triggered as a way to not get absorbed in It. So you're basically writing it down just so you're so smart. Yeah. So that you're just like, okay, I'm not gonna get involved, but I'm gonna write this down.

[Amy]

This moment, like, feeling judging right now. Feeling, like, irritated right now. Criticizing them. Do they not, you know, things like that? Like.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, it's like, almost like writing it down gives it a task. Okay, that's done. And so they can just listen. And then after they're done listening, they're gonna give their partner back what they

[Amy]

heard them say, but not the. Not the judgy stuff.

[Brianne Star]

Not the judgy stuff. Yeah. They're gonna do their best just to respond or, like, reflect back what they heard.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And each person gets a turn. I would say. If there's really a process you're inside of. I wouldn't recommend this necessarily. Cause triggers can be high. Yeah.

[Amy]

Do this in, like, a lighter experience. Like, let's talk about, I don't know, like, the coffee we drink this morning or something. Like something in the morning. More chill.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. And then the person who's listening, see if you can also find questions to ask. Like, where can you get more curious about this other person's experience? Like, can you tell me more about that? I'm. I'm curious about that. Like, I'm like, just be curious and ask questions.

[Amy]

Yeah. Again, here we are again. Curiosity. And for a lot of people, they either think they're a great listener and they're not, or they think they. They actually know that they're not fantastic at listening. So there are tools that you can do. And. Or asking questions is a big thing where people are like, I don't know what to ask.

[Brianne Star]

Right.

[Amy]

And. But the more you practice it, the easier it gets, and that leads to more connection.

[Brianne Star]

I love asking questions.

[Amy]

I know. Me too. I love the way you ask questions. If anyone gets the privilege of working with Brianne, you will know. If she ever asks you, I'm curious why, then you can laugh. Like, this is what Amy was talking about. Because it really is gold, though, especially as a practitioner.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's important for practitioners to not tell their client who they are, just like we are. Just because it's like, you're in a. You're in a paid relationship with someone when you're working with them. So you're doing the same thing. You're modeling a healthy relationship as a coach. Yeah. And so she does that. I've had that. Brienne does me. I'm like, Brianne's therapizing Me right now, But I asked for it and it's gold. Thank God. And actually, I'll end on this and ask you more about your work. My partner in the, like, three days ago, he was like, brianne. And I was like, what? You talked to her about your problems? And she said, I'm curious why. And he's like, yeah. And I saw myself. And she was right. Like, of course she was. It was awesome. So good. I feel very fortunate. Everyone needs a Brienne, but not everyone can have one. Sorry. But you can, because you can pay her. So you work with clients in person? We are in the Santa Cruz area or online. And you work with women and couples, but also some men. So can you describe more about that. That work and how people can dive on in?

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. So you know people. It's funny, I find waves of what people come to me for. Lately it's been a lot of relational dynamics, but I'm mostly working with singles around it.

[Amy]

Oh, cool. Okay.

[Brianne Star]

And then eventually the couple will come in.

[Amy]

I see. So you work the individuals who are in a couple and then they see you as a couple.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. So they're coming in for whatever dynamic, confusion, relationship stuff. And so then eventually we'll invite the partner in to actually, like, support the process because there's eventually a point where we need to.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

But yeah, I work with people. I mean, like, my work right now is really centered around relationship dynamics a lot. Around women who are anxiously attached to. That's a big one. A lot. I mean, I'm noticing a big theme in the world right now of a lot of women who are out of relationship and are in the field of dating, and they're just navigating the difficulties and the confusion around their anxious attachment style and even avoidant, too. I have a couple clients who. Who are like, I'm avoidant.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

And like. And I know that world very well.

[Amy]

Yeah. You're like, I've been there.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, I've been there. I know. Well, so, yeah, my work lately has been really around attachment in relationship.

[Amy]

Perfect. Isn't that perfect?

[Brianne Star]

We talked about this. I know.

[Amy]

We just randomly. I was like, you want to come on the show? You're like, what are we gonna talk about? Like, I don't know, attachment stuff. You're like, perfect.

[Brianne Star]

Yeah. Swimming it every day.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

But yeah, then my work also extends to, like, sexuality stuff and sexological body work work. And I just kind of trust what's arriving. But, you know, my container for what I do is. Is quite a spectrum.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Brianne Star]

You know, from from personal sex concerns, issues all the way to relationship and people having midlife crisis.

[Amy]

Yeah, that's a common one too. Yeah, that's. Oh, that's awesome. Okay, so if people wanted to work with you, where would they go? What's the. The website? What's the protocol?

[Brianne Star]

Yeah, so embodied liberation. Love. Love is my website and there's lots of buttons on there just to connect. And, you know, I always offer anybody who wants to be curious about working with me like a free, you know, I say 15 minutes, but I really trust in flow. So sometimes it's like a 30 minute little intro call. Chit chat and.

[Amy]

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Because not everyone does those intro calls. And I, I personally think, I mean, not all therapists and people have time for it too, or they're already booked. Like, I don't need to waste my time with that. I think it's really important, though, to feel the vibe of the person you're working with because as I said, you're kind of being. You're in a relationship with that person and you need to feel safe so you can share the vulnerable things and you can trust them and feel safe. So. Yeah, yeah, so go take advantage of that. We'll put the link in the show notes as well, so you don't have to remember that. But it's pretty easy. Embodied liberation.love. don't go.org or whatever. It's love everyone.

[Brianne Star]

You can also get there by Brianne star with2rs.com oh, she got two websites, you know, I mean, it goes to the same place.

[Amy]

Yeah. Oh, my God, you're doing

[Brianne Star]

Troy.

[Amy]

Troy. I know. Oh, Troy. He doesn't listen. I love you, though. I have a lot of friends, people in my life, they're like, how's the podcast? I never listen. I'm like, that's totally fine. And then I've had friends who are like, I don't need to hang out with you because I listen to podcasts. Like, I'm hanging out with you. I'm like, that's fine too. Everything's great. All right, everyone. Brianne Star Embodied Liberation Dot Love. Whether you're in a relationship or not, please work with her. She's awesome. Or if you're, if this is something you're not there yet. You're like, everything's good. Write down her information because she really does change lives. And I have, I'm picky too, by the way. Worked with a lot of therapists and coaches and it takes. Takes someone to work with a naming because Otherwise, I will run the show. So. All right. Well, I love you, Brian. And I'd love you. Dear listeners, whoever you are out there that I cannot see, see, and those whom I know, April's not here, but if she where, she would say she loves you as well. Please rate us wherever you're listening. Itunes, Spotify, we love ratings. We love five stars. If you don't want to write a review, this, it takes like a matter of seconds, everyone. You can put an emoji in there, tell your friends, right? Or share this episode. That helps as well. And then what else? Blah, blah, blah, blah. See you next Tuesday. Release an episode every single Tuesday. We have not missed missed one since 2017. We have over 400 and maybe 80 episodes now. Isn't that crazy? I know. Do you remember when it started? You were there. Or remember when I was recording in the Caribbean, Locked everyone out of the kitchen because it's the only place with air conditioning. The best they look at me now. Yeah, well, that's it. So, yeah, see you next Tuesday. We love you and ciao for now. To learn more, go to shamelesssex.com and

[April]

for 15 off some of our favorite sex toys, use code shameless [e-mail].