The Shawn Ryan Show #132 – Mike Benz: Inside the Censorship Industrial Complex

Released: September 19, 2024
Host: Shawn Ryan
Guest: Mike Benz (Executive Director, Foundation for Freedom Online; former Deputy Assistant Secretary, U.S. State Department; former White House/Cabinet speechwriter)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Shawn Ryan hosts Mike Benz for an in-depth exploration of the rise and operation of the "Censorship Industrial Complex." The conversation unpacks how U.S. government agencies, NGOs, and allied institutions are driving and exporting internet censorship domestically and internationally—especially to nations like Brazil. Benz provides a sweeping history, exposes the roots of censorship programs, details the intricate relationships between government, tech platforms, and private industry, and links these efforts to broader geopolitical strategies, including the struggle over global energy markets.
The tone is candid, critical, analytical, and refrains from partisan name-calling—Benz consistently emphasizes the nonpartisan nature of the issue and the deep-rootedness of the "Blob," his term for the entrenched foreign policy establishment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Mike Benz and the Foundation for Freedom Online

• Benz's Background: Former Deputy Assistant Secretary at State Department (2020–2021), White House speechwriter for President Trump, policy advisor in tech and housing/economic development.
• Foundation Purpose: Founded FFO in 2022 to expose, educate, and challenge the forces behind internet censorship, offering nonpartisan, factual insights (02:15).

“I felt like there needed to be a venue to provide nonpartisan insights to educate people so that they had the language... and the ability to understand what the world around them as it pertains to Internet censorship.” – Mike Benz [02:21]

2. State of Free Speech: Where Are We Now?

• America is not immune—many anti-speech policies seen in the UK and Brazil are U.S.-backed or inspired (03:50).
• The censorship ecosystem ties together government, tech platforms, civil society (universities, NGOs), and media—a "whole of society framework."
• Significant pushback has emerged since 2022, including:
  • Disinformation Governance Board exposure
  • Elon Musk’s takeover of X (Twitter) and the release of Twitter Files
  • Congressional hearings and subpoenas uncovering government pressure on platforms
  • Legal pressure (e.g., Supreme Court, lawsuits)

“Coming into the year 2022, you had the censorship industry was completely invincible… In 2022, a number of things happened that began to really change the turf…” – Mike Benz [05:01]

• However, as domestic wins accrue (e.g., more speech on X, Facebook, and Instagram), the "Blob" has escalated to international laws (EU Digital Services Act) to pressure platforms globally (11:40, 12:36).

3. Big Picture: The ‘Blob’ vs. Populism

• The principal conflict is not left vs. right but "the Blob" (U.S./UK/NATO’s entrenched foreign policy apparatus) vs. global populist movements (13:13).
• The Blob sees free speech online as a threat to its international order, particularly in light of populist electoral victories (Trump, Brexit, Bolsonaro, Salvini, Modi, etc.).

“Free speech is caught in this proxy war between what I call the Blob… the foreign policy establishment of the US, the UK, and NATO… And it was only happening because of free speech on the internet.” – Mike Benz [13:13]

4. Historical Roots: From Counterterrorism to Counterpopulism

• Censorship export began in earnest after the 2014 Ukraine coup, where U.S. and NATO poured billions into “civil society” in Ukraine (23:15).
• Initial rationale: stopping ISIS/terrorist recruitment, Russian propaganda (“From Tanks to Tweets” doctrine).
• NATO doctrine classified not only “Russian propaganda” but also any populist/nationalist narratives as disinformation.

“NATO developed this doctrine called from tanks to tweets, that NATO was no longer primarily about tank warfare, it was about controlling tweets, because tweets are how people get elected.” – Mike Benz [16:34]

• AI “superweapons” for natural language processing, network mapping, and sentiment analysis developed first for terrorists, then against “undesirable” political movements (23:15–29:04).

5. How U.S. Foreign Policy Funds, Designs, and Exports Censorship

• Organizations: State Department, USAID, National Endowment for Democracy (NED, a CIA cutout), Pentagon, NGOs, and compliant universities.
• Case study: Brazil
  • U.S. agencies and NGOs fund and staff Brazil’s censorship infrastructure (advisory councils, AI narrative mapping, flagging, and legal engineering).
  • Judge Alexandre de Moraes has become a focal point, but the real power lies in the multi-layered, U.S.-backed ecosystem that supports him (33:05–45:38).
  • Extensive manipulation around both 2018 and 2022 Brazilian elections, from machine procurement to narrative suppression and legal threats to opposition.

“It’s a Brazilian spider, but the spider web was laid by the U.S. State Department, USAID, the National Endowment for Democracy… and the fangs of it are star spangled fangs.” – Mike Benz [33:05]

“All three wings of the blob—the State Department, the CIA and the Pentagon—went down to Brazil to intermediate that election...” – Mike Benz [44:22]

6. Mechanisms for Domestic Control: The Boomerang Effect, Ad Pressure, and Economic Leverage

• The Blob can’t always directly censor at home (First Amendment), so it pressures platforms internationally (the “boomerang tactic”)—foreign laws force U.S.-based companies to comply (51:36).
• Government leverages advertising agencies: billions in public contracts, threat of lost ad revenue, and involvement with organizations like Global Disinformation Index & NewsGuard.
• NewsGuard described as “for-profit censorship,” with CIA, NATO, and DHS figures on its board, rating and deplatforming dissident outlets (67:47–73:25).

“NewsGuard… its whole business model is selling censorship whitelist labels to the advertising conglomerates to stop advertising revenue from flowing to websites like Breitbart…” – Mike Benz [68:11]

7. The EU and International Legal Pressure

• The EU Digital Services Act, developed largely under NATO influence, enforces global compliance through existential fines or forced removal—restaffing “trust and safety” teams and preserving the censorship network (73:28–76:48).
• Platforms like X face a choice: comply or lose the European market (a larger audience than the U.S.).

“You either have to pay the fee that bankrupts you or you have to do disinformation compliance… by providing essentially delegating it to these independent experts, independent researchers, who are all counter disinformation experts and academics.” – Mike Benz [73:28]

• Personnel is policy—when Musk fired moderation teams, the Blob lost direct access; the EU law is designed to restore those points of contact.

8. Commercial, Strategic, and Energy Geopolitics

• Global censorship is entangled with U.S. strategies for securing market control over key commodities, especially gas.
• Deep dive: The nexus of Burisma (Ukraine gas company), U.S. energy policy, Atlantic Council, and the Hunter Biden affair (112:29–148:03).
• The U.S. attempted to cut off Europe’s reliance on Russian gas (via coup in Ukraine, control of gas companies), supporting American and British interests and leveraging shell companies like Burisma.

“Burisma was an essential instrument of U.S. statecraft… literally being pitched to the State Department as an instrument of statecraft against Russia.” – Mike Benz [139:53]

• The conflict over who controls pipelines and gas rights in Ukraine and Crimea is central to many U.S. national security priorities, coloring all actions in the region, including propaganda and online censorship.

9. Industry Entrenchment and the Career Incentives of Censorship

• Since 2016, censorship became a “career track,” with hundreds of millions in government/NGO funding, university programs, and specialized jobs (84:43–91:25).
• The field is as vast and self-sustaining as the military-industrial complex—Mike Benz emphasizes the “censorship industry” as a lucrative, expanding sector.

10. Obstacles, the Current Pushback, and Future Outlook

• While Congressional investigations have increased, most efforts focus on DHS, FBI, and domestic actors. The State Department, USAID, and NGO network remain under-examined (65:02).
• There is hope: momentum is building from internal dissension (Zuckerberg’s regrets, Musk’s intervention), legal action, Congressional inquiries, and greater public awareness.

“We need to do the same thing they did to put it in drive, to put it in reverse… but it will be slow and painful.” – Mike Benz [104:04]

11. China's Rising Role: Consequences of U.S. Censorship Exports

• By crippling U.S. platforms abroad (e.g., Starlink in Brazil), U.S. policy ironically opens the door to Chinese tech and surveillance infrastructure—a stark warning for the future of global free speech and privacy (106:03–110:35).

12. World War III? Large-Scale Destabilization and Its Risks

• Mike Benz does not speculate directly but notes that U.S.-sponsored destabilization, not direct war, is the preferred tool, with “peacefire” (peace + ceasefire + subversion) as the likely outcome—escalate just enough to extract concessions, while keeping the world from outright war (156:19–160:34).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Censorship Industry Expansion:

  “Before 2016, you could not get a full-time job getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to censor what other people say on the Internet… it has become an industry, it has become a career track.” – Mike Benz [84:43]

• On the Complexity & Nonpartisan Nature:

  “It’s not Democrats versus Republicans… it is the Blob versus populism…” – Mike Benz [13:13]

• On Public Awareness & Optimism:

  “As much as it feels like we’re up against the weight of the world… this was the world before you could read about it… We have a level of freedom currently because of Elon Musk and X…” – Mike Benz [160:52]

• On the Grand Ukraine Energy Play:

  “The portion that everybody’s fighting over is the big, big gas… the main art... it disrupts Russia’s pipeline into Europe.” – (Shawn Ryan & Mike Benz) [137:25–137:51]

• On Why This Matters for U.S. Citizens:

  “…the American people are subsidizing their silence. And this goes away the moment our Congress or a court… does… heavy surgery to this…” – Mike Benz [84:43]

Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Mike Benz’s Introduction & FFO Origins: [00:06–03:13]
• Explanation of the ‘Censorship Industry’ and Key ‘Wins’: [03:50–12:36]
• Blob vs. Populism Framework: [13:13–21:13]
• Historical Genesis—Ukraine, NATO & Early Censorship Tech: [23:13–29:04]
• U.S. Intervention in Brazil: [33:05–51:25]
• How Economic Leverage Shapes Platform Policy: [59:03–73:28]
• EU Digital Services Act & International Law Pressure: [73:28–76:48]
• Inside the Career Pipeline of Censorship Studies: [84:43–91:25]
• China’s Starlink Alternative & Data Risks: [106:03–110:35]
• The Burisma/Ukraine/NATO/Atlantic Council Nexus: [112:29–148:03]
• World War III, Destabilization, and Soft Power Strategies: [156:19–160:34]
• Closing Thoughts and Recommendations: [160:52–163:52]

Recommendations and Guests to Watch

• Chris Pavlovski (Rumble): “Would be really interesting…for their take on what they’re doing against and about censorship issues from the independent platform side…” [162:52]
• Linda Yaccarino (X): “From the sort of ex leadership side…”
• Dan Bishop or Jim Jordan (Congress): For the Congressional perspective.

Conclusion & Takeaway

Mike Benz lays out a compelling, detailed, and multi-faceted analysis of how censorship has become an institutionalized, globalized industry. The episode exposes the roots, operational tactics, and sweeping ambitions of the “Censorship Industrial Complex,” linking it to both the U.S. pursuit of geopolitical dominance and to the daily lived realities of internet users. The conversation is a must-listen for anyone concerned with free speech, media manipulation, or covert governmental influence in the digital age.

For more: Follow Mike Benz on X (@ikebenciber), and Foundation for Freedom Online at foundationforfreedomonline.com.