#142 Dale Stark - A-10 Warthog: One of the Most Feared Aircraft in History

Summary

Shawn Ryan Show Episode #142 Summary: Dale Stark - A-10 Warthog: One of the Most Feared Aircraft in History

Release Date: November 4, 2024
Guest: Dale Stark, Retired United States Air Force A-10 Pilot
Host: Shawn Ryan

---

Introduction and Background

In this episode of the Shawn Ryan Show, Shawn Ryan interviews Dale Stark, a retired Lieutenant Colonel and former A-10 Warthog pilot with a distinguished military career spanning nearly 22 years. Dale shares his journey from a childhood filled with frequent relocations to his experiences in the Air Force, culminating in his current life as a rancher and father. The conversation delves deep into the challenges and triumphs of military life, combat missions, personal trauma, and the transition to civilian life.

---

Childhood and Early Life

Dale Stark was born in a small timber town on the Oregon coast and spent his youth moving frequently, living in 18 houses by the age of 18 across Idaho, Washington, Oregon, and Southern California. His father was deeply involved in the ranching industry, working as a horse trainer and saddle maker, which exposed Dale to ranch life from an early age.

Dale Stark [02:45]: "I grew up around ranches a lot. My dad was a horse trainer, a horseshoer, a saddle maker."

Living in an army tent near Cascade, Idaho, Dale fondly recalls building survival forts with his brother and engaging in outdoor activities like fishing and making snares for rabbits. These early experiences fostered a deep connection with nature and resilience.

Dale Stark [07:17]: "I look back on it now as the best time of my life."

---

Military Enlistment and Early Career

Struggling academically and grappling with anxiety in his late teens, Dale found direction through wrestling at Southwestern Oregon Community College, where he secured a tuition scholarship. Encouraged by his uncle, Arthur Stark, a Vietnam veteran and Chinook pilot, Dale enlisted in the Air Force in December 1999 as a C-17 Crew Chief.

Dale Stark [43:35]: "I had an uncle, Arthur Stark, who served two tours in Vietnam. He was a warrant officer and a Chinook pilot."

His disciplined upbringing and athletic background made the transition to military life smoother. Dale excelled in Basic Military Training (BMT), becoming an honor graduate, and proceeded to technical school at Shepherd Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, Texas.

---

Flight Training and Becoming an A-10 Pilot

Dale's ambition to become a pilot intensified after witnessing the events of September 11, 2001. Determined to contribute effectively to the war effort, he pursued pilot training with a focus on the A-10 Warthog, a ground-attack aircraft renowned for its durability and firepower.

Dale Stark [62:34]: "As soon as I got to my unit, I did great in BMT, did great in tech school, and started thinking about becoming a pilot."

Flight training was rigorous, with Dale navigating the challenges of advanced aircraft like the T-38 Talon. Despite initial struggles and high attrition rates, his perseverance paid off, and he earned a waiver to fly the A-10.

Dale Stark [74:47]: "I did everything that was required for the application and got accepted for an ROTC scholarship."

---

Deployments and Combat Experiences

Dale's deployment to Afghanistan in 2006 marked the beginning of his combat missions as an A-10 pilot. Flying missions in hostile environments, he played a crucial role in providing close air support to ground troops, neutralizing enemy threats, and ensuring the safety of American forces.

Dale Stark [148:00]: "We can't have the infantry survive without air support."

He recounts specific missions where his actions directly contributed to saving lives, such as destroying enemy machine gun positions and suppressing hostile fire during troop engagements. These experiences, while professionally rewarding, also exposed Dale to the harsh realities of modern warfare and its psychological toll.

Dale Stark [155:37]: "You see some dark shit... it's not something completely uncommon. But it's the reality of war."

---

Personal Trauma and Overcoming Challenges

Dale opens up about traumatic experiences outside of combat, including sexual trauma during his teenage years. These revelations highlight the often-overlooked personal battles faced by service members.

Dale Stark [21:12]: "I almost killed him... it was my first solo in the T-38."

He emphasizes the importance of seeking support and breaking the stigma around discussing such trauma, advocating for open communication and resilience.

Dale Stark [24:19]: "No matter what happened, just talk to somebody about it. Don't hold it in."

---

Transition to Post-Military Life

After retiring from the Air Force, Dale embraced a new chapter as a rancher, dedicating his time to transforming an old dairy farm into a functional cattle ranch. This transition provided him with therapeutic solace, reconnecting with nature and focusing on family life.

Dale Stark [264:02]: "It's amazing. Reconnecting with nature, being outside every day... it's a chance to take each day and maximize it for what's important to me."

He started homeschooling his two daughters, blending traditional homeschooling with real-world experiences like farming and animal husbandry, fostering a holistic and hands-on education.

Dale Stark [270:58]: "Homeschool nowadays looks a lot more... it's like merging homeschool and traditional school... it's on your own terms."

---

Personal Life and Homesteading

Dale and his wife, Amanda, whom he has known since fourth grade, have built a strong and supportive partnership. Together, they navigate the challenges of ranching and homeschooling, prioritizing their family's well-being and maintaining a balanced lifestyle.

Dale Stark [275:10]: "Being married is amazing... we work as a good team."

Their ranching life involves producing 80-90% of their own food, focusing on Angus grass-fed beef, and maintaining a substantial garden, allowing them to live a largely self-sufficient lifestyle while still staying connected to community resources.

Dale Stark [266:56]: "We have a huge garden, but just for personal use. We got a greenhouse too."

---

Reflections on Warfare and Military Policies

Throughout the interview, Dale critically examines modern warfare and military policies, expressing frustration with governmental decisions and the evolving nature of conflict. He highlights the shift from traditional combat roles to remote operations, drawing parallels with drone warfare and the perceived loss of personal connection in combat missions.

Dale Stark [189:39]: "It's like, what do we want to do? It's about the guy on the ground."

He also voices concerns over political agendas influencing military operations and the long-term impacts of foreign interventions, questioning the effectiveness and ethical considerations of prolonged military engagements.

Dale Stark [257:54]: "Look at Iraq now... Are we better off without Saddam?... It's a complete debacle."

---

Closing Thoughts

Dale Stark's story is one of resilience, dedication, and a relentless pursuit of purpose amidst personal and professional challenges. His transition from a decorated A-10 pilot to a dedicated rancher and father underscores the multifaceted lives of veterans and the profound impact of military service on personal identity and family dynamics.

Dale Stark [281:05]: "It's about spending time with them and teach them the things that you've learned in your life."

Shawn Ryan concludes the episode by expressing gratitude for Dale's openness and the invaluable insights he provided into the life of an A-10 pilot, the realities of combat, and the journey towards healing and self-fulfillment after military service.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Shawn Ryan [02:31]: "Am I missing anything?"
• Dale Stark [07:17]: "I look back on it now as the best time of my life."
• Dale Stark [21:11]: "I almost killed him... it was my first solo in the T-38."
• Dale Stark [24:19]: "No matter what happened, just talk to somebody about it. Don't hold it in."
• Dale Stark [275:10]: "Being married is amazing... we work as a good team."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates Dale Stark's multifaceted experiences, offering listeners a profound understanding of his journey through military service, personal struggles, and the pursuit of peace in civilian life.

Transcript

[Sean Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Dale Stark]

Skinny Pop Popcorn.

[Sean Ryan]

Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Oh so light and crunchy.

[Dale Stark]

Skinny Pop Original Popcorn is the snack.

[Sean Ryan]

You'Ve been searching for.

[Dale Stark]

Made with just three simple popcorn kernels.

[Sean Ryan]

Sunflower oil and salt.

[Dale Stark]

Snacking never felt or tasted so good. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Give yourself permission to snack and pick.

[Sean Ryan]

Up Skinny Pop Original Popcorn today. Dale Stark, welcome to the show, man.

[Dale Stark]

Thanks for having me.

[Sean Ryan]

It's a man. I've been watching your your Twitter for or I guess x now for quite a while and I love your page like this. The wittiness in the comments and just what you post is awesome. And on top of that, it's an honor to have you here. I've been wanting a pilot for a long time and as I've been watching you, I've just been like, man, I think I would really get along with that guy. So I'm just really stoked. You're my first Air Force airplane pilot that I've had in here and hope you're the first of many.

[Dale Stark]

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

[Sean Ryan]

You're welcome, you're welcome. But everybody starts off with an intro, so I'm going to give your intro here real quick. Dale Stark, a retired United States Air Force, A10 Pilot, Prior Enlisted, C17 Crew Chief. You have received four Air Medals, 13 Aerial Achievement Medals, and four Meritorious Service Medals. You made it to Lieutenant Colonel and Squadron Commander. During your time in the military, you flew combat missions during multiple deployments to Afghanistan in 2006, 2010, 2014 with 3,000 total flight hours. After serving nearly 22 years with the military, you finished your service to the country instructing for the Air Force in Tucson, Arizona. Since retiring, you've become a rancher and devote your time and energy into supplying the community with wholesome, locally sourced beef. You're a husband, a father of two beautiful girls, and a Christian. Am I missing anything?

[Dale Stark]

That's. That's pretty much it.

[Sean Ryan]

I got a feeling I'm missing a lot here, but we'll get into that stuff here in a little bit. But man, I love your. I love your farm. Do you call it a farm or a ranch?

[Dale Stark]

You know, it's kind of the way I've generally heard it is that if you're doing primary like plants, it's farm. If you're raising livestock, it's a ranch. But it's not like some massive Yellowstone operation. You know, it's a single man deal, 58 acres total. And then like you said, primarily raisin, Angus grass, fed grass, finished beef so farm, ranch, whatever. You know, I kind of use both terms. Sometimes homestead, you know, whatever works for you.

[Sean Ryan]

So did you grow up doing that, or is this like a steep learning curve for you?

[Dale Stark]

I grew up around ranches a lot. My dad was like a horse trainer, a horseshoer, a saddle maker, so, you know, in the ranching industry. And then I lived not too far from a dairy farm. One of my best friends was, you know, born and raised on this dairy farm, and I would help them, you know, bucking hay in the summer. So I've been around it a lot as a kid.

[Sean Ryan]

Really? Well, I want to get into your ranch operation more towards the end and kind of what led you into that. But first, let's get into the interview. So before we get started, two in the weeds here, everybody gets a gift. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Oh, you have to open it right.

[Dale Stark]

There for the gummy bears. Right?

[Sean Ryan]

That's. Hey.

[Dale Stark]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

There you go.

[Dale Stark]

The packaging's killer, too.

[Sean Ryan]

Thank you. So, yeah, made here in the usa. Some people give me shit about that because I've turned into a little bit of a health nut. But, you know, there are no healthy gummy bears.

[Dale Stark]

So, you know, dude, sometimes you need gummy bears.

[Sean Ryan]

They're amazing. And they're legal in all 50 states. Not that that matters in Oregon, but, hey, if you go anywhere else, those are legal. But, yeah, so let's dive into. We're gonna do a full life story here. So I want to go through your childhood. It sounds like you had a traumatic experience at some point there, and so I'd like to talk about that. And then we'll move into your military career and maybe some about the country and what you're doing nowadays, and we'll wrap it up there. But starting off, where'd you grow up?

[Dale Stark]

So I was born in a small town on the Oregon coast. So it's kind of mainly a timber town and also lots of fishing. Those are kind of the main industries, but moved around a lot. So I think we lived in 18 houses by the time I was 18 years old. So, you know, live in Idaho, Washington, Oregon. Obviously lived in Southern California for a while, so just kind of, you know, lots of moving around. So my dad, you know, why did.

[Sean Ryan]

You move so much? Do you know?

[Dale Stark]

You know, it was the way I saw it at the time. Maybe a little bit of a different era. But, you know, my dad would take a job where the job was and we would move. So whether it be seasonal work, you know, he did some logging. Like, one of my first memories is we were basically camped out all summer just outside of a logging camp near Cascade, Idaho. So, you know, living in a. Basically like an army tent. Fishing, hunting, trapping.

[Sean Ryan]

You guys were living in an army tent?

[Dale Stark]

Yes.

[Sean Ryan]

How many brothers and sisters did you have?

[Dale Stark]

One brother older than me. So just. Yeah, Whole summer in the woods. Cause he had a logging job out there. And then when that, you know, that job would come to an end, or school would start, then he'd find another job. So, you know, it's just. There wasn't, like, all these programs and this and that. It was. You went where you could get a job at that time, and that's what we did. So, you know, and then there was other things for kind of like saving money. So it'd be like, hey, you can live in this house for six months if you guys fix it up, or something like that. So just. Yeah, just lots of moves.

[Sean Ryan]

So did you like living in that tent?

[Dale Stark]

I look back on it now as the best time of my life.

[Sean Ryan]

Really?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. I mean, we were just outside in the woods in Idaho for an entire summer. Like, just like, I didn't even understand until I was in the Air Force that people didn't just have access to, like, thousands of acres of forest out their backyard. It was just like our birthright living in the west, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And then, you know, later, I'm in Texas, done with basic training in tech school. Want to go to the woods? And you're like, there are no. There's no. It's all private land. You gotta know somebody to go hunt or whatever it may be.

[Sean Ryan]

Is it like that everywhere out West?

[Dale Stark]

I mean, I can't speak to everywhere, but there's just. There's tons of, like, national forest, state forest. And even the lands that the timber companies own will allow you access.

[Sean Ryan]

So me and my wife just went to Park City, Utah. We've been going out west for the past couple years, and minus California. I love. I love it out West. It seems like. I don't know, man. It just like. Like you're saying, like, you have to know. So if you want to go hunt or you want to be out in the woods, you either have to own the property or know somebody that owns some property. And out there just. It seems like the conservation is a lot. Like, they really took it seriously out there, but on the east coast and kind of Midwest, they didn't. And the outdoors just seem so much more accessible out there.

[Dale Stark]

It really is. And I don't really Know all the history as to how that happened. It's a big place, you know, and there's a lot of terrain that's probably not necessarily ideal for development. And so. Yeah, it's just. Like I was saying, it's just. It's picture. Just having unlimited access to. Seemed like infinity. You know, you could go anywhere, do anything, come home at dark kind of thing. So, you know, looking back, I look at it as a privilege. I think it makes you resilient. Had a real close family, so, you know, I had my brother wherever we would go, so it was fine, you know.

[Sean Ryan]

Is your mom in the picture?

[Dale Stark]

Yep, my mom. Awesome. Just. It's funny. Like, I can't imagine people doing what we did now. Hey, babe, we're moving to the woods for the summer. Like, how's that gonna go over? Yeah, but, yeah, she's just a good sport, you know, Just like, very faithful. Christian. Always knew that God would provide, and he always did. So it was just. I looked at it as a big adventure when I was a kid.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. What. What kind of. I mean, what kind. What would you do out in the woods? What were you and your brother into?

[Dale Stark]

Oh, we just build survival forts. Like, my dad would let us go, like, sleep in these forts we had built overnight and stuff. So we're like, okay, we're gonna. You know, we love Rambo. Like that whole kind of GI Joe, that whole genre.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So, yeah, we just. We'd go build forts, go fishing, make little snares for rabbits and stuff. Like, just stuff kids do, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Man, that's cool. That's cool. I was talking to. I think it was. I can't remember who it was the conversation with, but I read when Henry. We were having the conversation on the show, and he was saying that kids that grow up in and around nature have. I can't remember the percentage, but when it comes to, like, all these sicknesses and shit that are going around, adhd, all these kind of autism, all these things, it sounds like the kids that grow up in nature, that have experience out in the woods are a lot healthier when it comes to mental health versus kids in the city. Have you heard anything about that?

[Dale Stark]

I've read things, and it makes sense to me, anyway, it seems like more in line with how we have lived through most of human history. So. Yeah, you take a boy and make him sit in a classroom and watch screens all day or whatever it may be. I think you're kind of asking for trouble.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you wound up in. Was it California.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So when I think it was sixth grade, my dad got a horseshoeing job, so that was kind of his main profession. So, you know, working on show horses, race horses. He was really good at it. So he got on at this place down in Southern California, which is where he grew up. And we went out there for, I think it was four years. So kind of like basically sixth grade to the start of high school. Yeah. So, yeah, and that was interesting because we're mainly in, like, rural areas up to that point, and now we're living, like, near San Diego.

[Sean Ryan]

How'd that go?

[Advertisement Speaker]

When I was in the seal teams, I loved to dip. I spent a lot of time on operations, and dipping was a ritual. So if it's a ritual for you too, I get it. If you're an adult age 21 or older and use nicotine or tobacco, I want to tell you about an American brand, Black Buffalo. Black Buffalo's nicotine pouches do not contain tobacco leaf or stem, but they are packed with tons of flavor and nicotine. The magic of Black Buffalo is they discovered a way to make cured, edible green leaves behave like the texture of tobacco and have classic flavors. You're in good company if you roam with the Black Buffalo herd. The business was built by dippers with decades of smokeless tobacco use. They manufactured their tobacco alternatives with with respect for those products that came before them. Bold flavors, full pouches, metal lids, and a brand that stands for something America. Their products are also proudly endorsed by many, myself included. If you're 21 and older, consume nicotine or tobacco, join the herd and head over to blackbuffalo.com to learn more. You can order online and they ship directly to most states or check out their store locator to purchase pouches at thousands of locations around the country. Black Buffalo, an American brand in pouches. Worth respect warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Black Buffalo products are intended for adults aged 21 and older who are consumers of nicotine or tobacco.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it was. I mean, it was a good experience in a lot of ways. Like, I became so something that I tend to do, and it started as a young age is just get obsessed with one thing. And so I fell in love with skateboarding at that timeframe. So I'd started that in Oregon a little bit, and then we moved to California and it just took off. So I'm like, you know, you heard of, like, Tony Hawk?

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, yeah, man.

[Dale Stark]

All those guys. The bones brigade. So I'm like, I'm watching those Videos. I'm going to the skate parks every day after school all summer long. Just, you know, sleeping with my skateboard in my bed. Just became completely obsessed with that sport at that time. And so, you know, it was cool, like I said, growing up in these kind of rural communities, which I loved and what I prefer now, obviously, but then now I'm, you know, sixth grade, then junior high and living outside of like Hollywood and skateboarding and. And I tried to take it to a pretty high level for my age at that time. Like, I think it's kind of funny looking back now, but I was like a state champion for sponsored 14 and under.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

No, I was a California state champion. So skating with all the biggest pros. Like, I went out to Tony Hawk's like Skate Ranch in Fallbrook and all these like older pros are kind of taking me under their wing and all these companies are just like throwing me all this free stuff like Billabong. I don't know if you've seen that. They're like a. More of a surf company.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, I know who that is. Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So we're. Yeah, so I'm like, I'm this kid who grew up in the country and then now I'm skateboarding in San Diego and they're just like, come to our factory and they'd give me like big trash bags and just say, go fill them up with whatever you want. Clothing wise.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you serious?

[Dale Stark]

Like, yeah. And I mean, this is like, this is not anything that I have ever experienced.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And it's. For them, it's marketing. It's like, you get these kids that are good, you get pros, you get them to wear your stuff and then it makes their. I understand it now, but at the time I've just minded was blown, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. So you do not strike me as a skateboarder at all. I know, that's crazy.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it was, it was fun, you know, Feel like you can fly. It was the time of like vert skating and ramps and. Yeah, it was just, it was a blast.

[Sean Ryan]

Was your brother into that too at all or.

[Dale Stark]

He was into it a little bit and then he was into surfing and stuff, but he didn't become nearly as like into it as I was.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha, Gotcha. But you were into surfing too, correct?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, yeah. Living there in Southern California, it's kind of go hand in hand. So a lot of days at the beach and at the skate park.

[Sean Ryan]

Did you get as good at surfing as you did it?

[Dale Stark]

I got pretty good, but I never, I. My Main kind of love at that time was skateboarding. And I never. I always loved surfing. I got into it a lot more in my later teenage years, like when we moved back to Oregon. But I was better at skateboarding. I just put in way more hours at it.

[Sean Ryan]

So if I read correctly, you had kind of a traumatic experience in your skateboarding career.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, so, like, it's kind of my first experience with what you kind of think of as, like, Hollywood. Like, just. Yeah. So there are just so many. So many creeps around this kind of world. Right. So I got, like, picked up to do a Levi's commercial. So I did.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you serious? So you're a model, too?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

This is incredible.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. All these new revelations. I never thought about it like that. But. So, yeah, I'm, like, going out to la, doing, like, Levi's jeans commercials. You know, skateboarding. You know, I'm just skating in there.

[Sean Ryan]

Wait, did these, like. Were these on tv? Yeah, we can look these commercials up.

[Dale Stark]

I bought my first Browning 243 lever action rifle with residuals from a Levi's commercial.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, man. I'll bet there's not too many people in Hollywood buying those anymore.

[Dale Stark]

Probably not. Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, no shit. So we could actually. I'm gonna find this commercial and put it in here.

[Dale Stark]

Oh, that'd be hilarious. My mom has it. I don't know if. I mean, this is like, early 90s.

[Sean Ryan]

We'll find it.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it's out there.

[Sean Ryan]

We'll find it.

[Dale Stark]

It's gotta be somewhere. But, yeah. So then the first kind of really weird thing that happened in this kind of Southern California Hollywood skateboard scene is there's this pro named Mark Gator Rogowski. I don't know if that name rings a bell. So he's this huge pro skater. At the time, he was probably, like, very equivalent to, say, like a Tony Hawk. Mike McGill. Bones brigade, guys. Like, he was. He was like a hero of mine. Like, I'm watching him on videos, you know, he's. He was kind of the top of the food chain back then. So I'm, you know, I'm like 12, 13, 14, spending all my time at these skate parks. I'm a young amateur. He's a pro. So they, you know, they take young guys under their wing, right? So they're like. So I'm skating with all these guys, and one day I get home, I think it was from school. My parents bring me in. They're like, you need to know something. Like, sit down, because we know you really look up to this. Guy, but he just turned himself in for murder. So this guy today, like 20, 24, is still serving out his sentence in California for murdering this woman. So there's. There have been like documentaries on this. So there's a lot of information out there on it because it was. It was a big deal, especially in that area at that time. But the short of it was that he was like dating this girl and then she kind of blew him off or something. And then he went out with her friend and for whatever reason just like flipped out on her. And like, the story is he murdered her with a bike lock and then stuffed her in a surfboard bag and drove her out to the desert and like buried her in a shallow grave out there.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, so I'm like, you know, 13, 14. I forget the exact age, but I'm young and I'm trying to like, process this information of what, like this guy I looked up to is clearly psychotic. But. Yeah, so then it was just. It's kind of the first glimpse into like, I don't know, I mean, that was pretty extreme, but just like the darkness of some of that. Some of that world down there.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

Started to feel that started to get weird. You know what I mean?

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, yeah. Any sexual type trauma?

[Dale Stark]

Well, kind of like similarly, like around that time, there was this really another weird situation. So this is kind of like, I'd say just a window into what that. Not necessarily skateboarding, but just kind of that Hollywood LA kind of world was like. And I've like, I have a really hard time even talking about, like what happened here. But I think a lot of. A lot of guys and stuff have gone through this and they don't want to talk about it.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, Dale, I'm not going to pressure you to talk about it. And the reason I ask is there's so many. There are so many kids that go through this shit, you know, And I mean, it's coming out on. I mean, they're making movies about it now, you know, Sound of Freedom and it start. I don't know if it's hitting mainstream media, but I mean, we got the Puff Daddy thing. You got the Epstein stuff, you've got. In all it's. People are kind of waking up to.

[Dale Stark]

This is a shocking amount of, you know, pedophiles out there.

[Sean Ryan]

It's insane. And even in my own personal experiences with interviewing people, fortunately, I never had to go through anything like that. But I can't believe we do the childhood stuff. I've always done kind of the life story and then we hit this point where one. One person. I can't remember who the first one that brought it up was. It may have been prime hall. And then I started realizing, like, holy shit, man. Like, 50% of my guest list has been sexually traumatized in their childhood. And. And so the reason I bring it up is. Yeah, because there's so many kids out there that are going through this kind of stuff, and they don't. I think when somebody that I'm interviewing talks about their experience and how they overcame it, and if we do go into it, I'll ask you, what advice do you have for kids that are going through that kind of situation? They don't know where to turn. And so that's why I'm asking.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I think it's important, and that's kind of why I brought it up previously is something I wanted to talk about for those kids who have gone through something like this, or even adults. But what happened in my case was there was this judge, so he was kind of well respected. Like, nobody thought of him as a threat, anything like that. And there was one contest, and he said, hey, I'll pick you up.

[Sean Ryan]

A skateboarding judge.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So he was like a litigation.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, exactly. I apologize. So he was a judge for these skateboarding in competitions for California Amateur Skateboard League. So he was an older gentleman and not a gentleman. He was a piece of. But anyhow, so he had talked to my parents, and there was. There were contests every weekend, you know, and usually my mom would take me or my dad or both of them. And for this particular contest, he's like. He called. He's like, oh, yeah, you want me to take them? I can. And I'm gonna take these other kids as well. And then you guys can just come up the next day. Cause usually there's like a practice, say on like a Friday competition on Saturday, and then you go home. So usually stay one night if it's not local. So this guy picks me up, and I'm again, a similar age to. With this other situations. So I forget exactly, but around 13, 14, something like that. So he picks me up and then tells me, oh, we're not picking up the other kids. Which is my first kind of red flag. I'm going, this is kind of weird. He's like, oh, yeah. Their parents decided they're picking him up, so we're just gonna go. So.

[Sean Ryan]

And you knew right then something was up.

[Dale Stark]

It kind of like got my hackles up. I'm like, that's weird, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And I like, thankfully, the way I was raised, I was this could have been a lot worse as you'll find because I was pretty strong willed. I wrestled when I was young, I felt physically capable even though I was, you know, 13. But you know, I'm sitting here now by myself with this grown adult and we're going to California, so, or going I think somewhere up near LA from San Diego. So we go to the hotel or go get something to eat, go to the hotel. And then he just starts drinking. So he's drinking like hard alcohol and he's trying to get me to drink. Like, hey, like just take a shot. And he's trying to, he's kind of like ridiculing me. Like, oh, if you, like, what are you, a wuss? Like you could have a drink, it's no big deal, you know what I mean? So. And I'm like, no, I'm just kind of like staying away from this guy. So as the night progresses, he puts on porn. So there's two beds in this room. So he's on the bed, he's drunk as can be and he puts on a porno. And then he literally just whips it out and starts like pleasuring himself. And I basically at that time, and he's trying to tell me to come over, come over there.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So like this literally unfolded in front of me at 13 years old and I'm going like, what? You know, I had a good family. Like they would have never expected anything like this. I don't think that everyone crossed their mind back then, you know, in fact, I didn't even tell my parents or probably anyone until I was like 40 years old because I just put it, put it behind me, you know, because my dad probably would have killed this guy. And I'm not exaggerating, that's what he would have done. Anyhow, so I ran into the bathroom, I slammed the door shut, I locked it. And he starts trying to get into the room or get into the bathroom. So he's oh, come out here and this. And so I just, I start screaming at him like, get the hell away from me, get out of here. I'm screaming bloody murder at this point. And so he like backs off because he's afraid probably someone's going to hear me. And then I just spint the spent the night in the bathroom with the door locked, wake up the next morning, go to the contest and see my parents and that was basically the end of it. So it wasn't, it wasn't like this. It could have been a lot worse is what I'm trying to say. But it was just all these things in this time are kind of. Kind of happening, and it's just. It started feeling like a really. Kind of a dark place, a dark environment. And I think my parents were sensing that as well and started thinking about getting back to Oregon at that time.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit. I mean, how do you. How do you keep that in for.

[Dale Stark]

You know, what's weird about it is I remember at the time thinking, I don't want to. Like, I'm going to get in trouble if I talk about this because of, like, the porn was on. You know what I mean? So I'm going like, ooh. Like, I shouldn't watch. Like, it's embarrassing and it's. You know. And you're thinking like, that you are at fault somehow. I remember thinking, like, I'm gonna get in trouble if I. If I talk about this for whatever it is. I wasn't. You know, whatever it is that I did to be a part of this, you know? Cause, like, I say he put on a porn on that trip. He had, like, porno magazines out and stuff. So I think that these pedophiles do things to where a child feels guilty for being even a part of it, and then they use that against you. So it's like, oh, well, if you say anything, you're gonna get in trouble, is kind of the feeling I have.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit. Did you have to. Did you have any type of communication or relationship with that person afterwards?

[Dale Stark]

I mean, I would see him. So the people I did tell was other kids, like the other skaters and stuff. And I basically just said, hey, stay away from that guy. Cause he's a creep. Like. And they're like, yeah, like, we've had similar experiences, so. But nobody told their parents. You know, Everybody would just felt like, I don't know, just didn't want to. It's like the child's mind doesn't want to create all the. You're kind of like, I don't want to have all these problems. We got enough problems.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So, yeah. So that it was like, again, it could have been a lot worse. But it is something that makes an impact on a young person's mind at that age.

[Sean Ryan]

What kept it in until you're 40?

[Dale Stark]

I just buried it. You know what I mean? I was just kind of like. That was weird. I felt like since I avoided this guy actually, like, putting his hands on me, I felt like nothing happened, you know? But then, you know, as you get older, you're like, no, that did have an impact and how, you know, your ability to trust people, the way you know, it kind of. I'd say it kind of wises you up to the ways of the world at a young age. And so after that point, I acted very differently towards people than I did before. I would say, damn. So just like, I don't want to. I don't want to go there. You know, nothing happened to me. I'm just going to bury that and move on.

[Sean Ryan]

Let me rephrase that question. What brought it out at age 40?

[Dale Stark]

I think, well, we can get into it, but I just think when you start kind of, you know, you get a little bit older and you start reflecting on your life, the things you've done, the things that have happened to you, and then you just. You just want to tell the truth. You don't want to have any secrets, you know, and so you're just like, wow, that's. You have kids, too. And you're just like, that's crazy. That happened to me. Like, what a piece of shit. You know, I can't believe that there are people like that in this world that would prey on kids. And then you have your own kids and you're going, okay. Like, I'm not trusting anybody. Like, if there's an overnight trip, I'm going, like, I trust my family. And that's the extent of it when it comes to overnight trips with my kids. So that was.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you think this shit all stemmed from that area?

[Dale Stark]

I don't know, man. That's a dark place, man.

[Sean Ryan]

I'm not gonna say I have a similar experience, but I guess it's along the same lines. I was a lot older, but I remember it was when I was in buds, actually. But, I mean, when I was in buds, I was like, 18, and there was a group of us that went golfing at Admiral. I feel like it was Admiral Baker Golf Course or something up by San Diego. Are you familiar with it?

[Dale Stark]

But not particularly, no.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, anyways, we had golfed, and we got. There was like three or four of us. We got paired with this older guy who claimed he was an admiral, and we told him we were Bud students. And all the people that I ran with were the same age. We were into drinking back then, and so we were drinking on the course. Shooting golf with this guy seemed pretty cool. Invited us back to his penthouse somewhere, and I think it was like La Jolla or something, and went in there and he kept kind of the same deal. He kept Shoving booze on us. And somebody found. One of. One of my buddies had found this photo album and he pulled out the photo album and every picture in the album was like older teenagers, men that were passed out drunk naked in his apartment. And so we, I mean, I wouldn't really say it traumatized me by any means.

[Dale Stark]

Sure.

[Sean Ryan]

It was like, let's get the out of here right now.

[Dale Stark]

Just a glimpse into what some of these people are like.

[Sean Ryan]

It was like, oh shit, I hope nobody got drugged. But, but anyways, I mean, you know what, what advice do you have for having been through something like that? What advice do you have for kids?

[Dale Stark]

I would say no matter what happened, like, even if you feel like you escaped the danger, you know, or something even worse happened, just talk to somebody about it. Just get it off your chest. Don't hold it in. There's no reason to. You'll just get support and hopefully prevent this from happening to someone else.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, I'm curious too. I mean, is this keeps. It just continues. The problem seems to continue to get worse. I mean, you hear about the, the maps, right now we're, we're calling pedophiles. Well, I'm not, but some people are for this type of sexual orientation, they call it. Right. And they're calling them maps. Minor attracted persons. They're normalizing pedophilia and you know, guess where it's coming from. Oh, big surprise, the west coast. But I mean, I think about this as a father of, you know, I got a two and a half year old and a seven month old and the problem is not getting better, it's getting worse. And your daughter's a little bit older, but I mean, what, how do you, what do you tell them and what do you teach them? Do you, do you talk about this kind of stuff?

[Dale Stark]

We haven't had to have any of these straightforward talks yet, but you know, and I don't want them, I want them to have an innocent childhood.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So right now I feel like I'm the protector, as is their mother, you know, so avoiding sleepovers, I don't think they're necessarily. It's probably fine, but you look at where these kind of things happen to people and a lot of times it's people they least suspect. But there are stuff like sleepovers, so I'm just avoiding those types of things. And yeah, I think you're right. There's no end to the revolution. Right. Like they always have to have some boundary to push. It seems there's no limiting principle. So they're making basically any form of sick perversion. To be normalized is just, hey, they were born that way, so who are you to say? But I reject that. And I think that's where a lot of people would draw the line. And I really hope so because that could never, you know, it's children. If you can't protect children, if your society doesn't protect children, what's the point of. What's the point of it, right?

[Sean Ryan]

It's crazy. It seems like there's like this big movement behind it to like celebrate pedophilia. And it's like, where does this shit end?

[Dale Stark]

I just, I ask myself that all the time.

[Sean Ryan]

You know, I bring it up to my. I bring it up to my two and a half year old, you know, I don't. We don't have talks about it, but I.

[Dale Stark]

There's creeps out there.

[Sean Ryan]

This is your private parts, buddy.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

You know what I mean? Nobody touches your private parts, mom and dad. And that's it. And now, I mean, we're potty training them and, you know, so we still got diapers and shit, but we'll take his diaper off and he'll go. He will literally go, my weenie in my butt. My private parts. Mom and dad. Oli, Anybody. Anybody.

[Dale Stark]

Don't touch you.

[Sean Ryan]

And it's cool, man, because two and a half, it's. It's registering, you know what I mean? And I know he's gonna say something if something happens, you know, already at this age, like, he knows every single time, man, that we change his diaper, you know, or put him in the bath. I mean, he's saying, these are my private parts. No touching. And more parents need to be doing that, you know, to plant that seed in there.

[Dale Stark]

I think, in my opinion, just understanding that it's a real threat and it's from the places that you wouldn't expect and the people you wouldn't expect. So, yeah, just that open communication with your kids, keeping that bond. So if they do get a bad vibe about somebody, they feel comfortable telling you about it.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. What. I mean, what was your, what was your parents reaction when you. When that got brought up?

[Dale Stark]

They were shocked. Like, they're just like, you should have told us. Like, they just, they were in disbelief almost, but not really when they started thinking about it. You know, maybe there were signs, but in real time it never crossed their minds, man.

[Sean Ryan]

Such a.

[Dale Stark]

It's dark.

[Sean Ryan]

It is, isn't it?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. No one wants to talk about it because it's so dark. And if it especially seems like the worse somebody got it and they become even obviously more traumatized and more. Less likely to want to talk about it and just bottle that up, man.

[Sean Ryan]

It's. It's not getting any better. But let's move on. Let's move out of this subject. So did you leave California?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So freshman year, like I said, I think with that situation with that pro skateboarder gator, they didn't know about this judge, but they knew. I think they could just sense. And I was running with some rough kids at this time. Like in that era, we're basically like feral kids, you know, just in the streets of San Diego on our skateboards and surfing and, you know, a lot of those guys went on to be professionals and then burn out and ended up, you know, sadly somewhere dead or in jail or whatever. You know, it's a rough scene.

[Sean Ryan]

Were you getting into trouble?

[Dale Stark]

I was getting so. My older brother was getting into more trouble. So I think that's where my parents attention was and so I could fly under the radar and just. We did whatever we wanted, you know.

[Sean Ryan]

What kind of trouble were you getting into? Drinking or.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I think that was the first time probably that, you know, drinking just. There were, man, there were so many just crazy scenarios. Like there's basically like surf gangs in Southern California. Like, people are very localized really, and there's surf spots. So if somebody comes there that's not from there and they have bad etiquette. This is again, back in the 90s, I don't know what it's like now, but there'd be fist fights, you know, a lot of them, and just. It's just a wild time, you know, like, it's like you're not this innocent kid anymore. Everybody drinks, everybody smokes weed, everybody's trying to do something in Hollywood. Like, you know, it's just. I think my parents just generally had a sense that this is not a good, healthy environment for kids.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So they're like, let's get back to our small town in Oregon and, you know, finish out high school out there.

[Sean Ryan]

Makes sense. So you moved back to Oregon. What got you interested in the military?

[Dale Stark]

So I had an uncle, his name is Arthur Stark, and he served two tours in Vietnam. He was a crew chief on Huey's. He tried to volunteer for a third, but apparently his command told him he was crazy and he needed to stay home. And then anyhow, so he ended up becoming a warrant officer and then a Chinook pilot in the Army Reserves. Continued serving his entire life. He did 18 months in Iraq at 58 years old. One of the most experienced helicopter pilots in the Army.

[Sean Ryan]

No shit. When was he in Iraq?

[Dale Stark]

The early, like, the very initial invasion.

[Sean Ryan]

This war.

[Dale Stark]

The gwat03? Yep.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

They're 58 years old. It was a Vietnam tour. Vietnam vet. So he was just a hero to our family, a personal hero of mine. And so, you know, and then, like, I had mentioned I was kind of one of those dorky kids that wore camouflage from, like, basically the time I could remember up until about. Until we moved to California. So I just always been interested in the military, but it wasn't something that was in my focus, you know. So go back to Oregon. I start wrestling. So now I'm doing the sport of wrestling and I'm surfing a bunch in Oregon there. And I'm not a great student, so I've always hated sitting down, paying attention, listening to a teacher just really never worked for me. So they're like, oh, he's got, you know, probably has adhd. He's. He's got all these issues. He will not pay attention, you know, Terrible student. So I barely graduated high school and. But I had some good friends now that I came back and had some good influences. They were going to school, and so I was like, man, I want to go to school. I don't want to. I was, like, terrified of being a loser. So I was just going, like, you know, you start feeling that pressure build as you're getting older, you're getting closer to graduating high school, and you're going, what? What am I going to do with my life? And I'm working, like, lots of menial jobs, like, you know, landscaping, worked at a movie theater, just, like, worked at a gas station. Just doing these normal jobs and going like, man, like, on my current trajectory, I, like, I've got nothing going for me. Like, this is not gonna end. Like, you know, I'm just. I start having, like, anxiety attacks, even, like, in my later teenage years.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

I'm just sitting there going, like, feeling like I'm gonna have a heart attack sitting there at, like, you know, midnight at home for no apparent reason. Just start. Just start feeling that pressure, wondering what I'm gonna do with my life. But anyhow, so I finished up high school and I was getting pretty good at wrestling. So I picked up a. Just, like, a tuition scholarship at the local community college. They're starting a wrestling program. So I just. I was going to wrestle at this place called swac, so Southwestern Oregon Community College. So that's what I did, but my parents were more of like the old school type where after high school it was time to get a job. So if you want to stay at home, well, you're an adult now, so you need to start paying rent. So this became like a point of contention between us, right? So I'm going to community college, I'm wrestling, I'm surfing all the time, any money I get. Like in the summer I'm buying like one way ticket to Mexico City, going on these surf trips to like, you know, Puerto Escondido and Pasquales. And these just like, I'm just doing my thing, thinking I can figure this out. And my parents are going, you're just wasting your time, you know, what are you even doing anyhow? So we go through that for dang near about at least a solid year. And my grades are terrible, I'm drinking, I'm not wrestling that great. Cause I'm just, my life is just kind of in shambles, you know, it's like a high school kid that is like stuck in neutral, you know what I mean? Anyway, so I keep trying to make this happen and it's just not working. And we're button heads and eventually it's like the movies, like they talk about, they're like, you gotta pay rent, you're behind now. You're three months behind now I get home and all my stuff's on the porch and figure it out, you know, Damn. They're like, we're, you know, that is old school. They're like, we're not gonna enable you, you know, and a lot of, a lot of people criticize that technique now. They're just like, man, you gotta, you know, and I'm not kicking my girls out, cause they're girls. But you know, my parents knew me well and they probably knew that I needed some motivation. And so from that point forward, I'm trying to do the same things now. So I'm trying to go to school, trying to wrestle, and I'm living in the back of my Volvo station wagon at the beach and you know, couch surfing at friends houses, like surfing and then using the showers at the beach, the beach, campground, stuff like that. And just like not doing good at anything, so getting terrible grades, not wrestling great and really not moving forward. So I had thought about joining the military, like right out of high school, like it had crossed my mind. I talked to the recruiters a little bit, but I decided against it. So then now a year and a half later, I'm basically at like rock bottom, you Know, you can't get much lower than living in your car. You know, I guess you could. I never became a drug addict, so I had that going for me. But, you know, and then. So I almost joined the Marines. Like, I. That was kind of my first idea. I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. You know, these guys are badass, right? Like, look at the uniforms, how sharp they are. I. You know, I was just like, okay, that could be awesome. And I remember talking to my uncle, the helicopter pilot, and he recommended I join the Air Force. And he's like, well, you can get a technical skill. He's like, right now you're living in your car. Like, are you enjoying that? Wouldn't it be nice to, like, get the GI Bill, have a technical skill? I had talked to him about becoming a pilot, but there had been nothing in my life that would suggest that I had the capability to be a pilot. So I remember him saying, though, he's like, if you decide you want to be a pilot, like we've talked about, the Air Force is all about airplanes. And he's like, yeah, the Marines, they have some airplanes, but they're all about infantry. The army, they have helicopters, but that's not the main show, you know, same with the Navy. So he's like, if you want to have a skill that can lead to a career afterwards, if you want to even think about being a pilot, your best chances are going to be in the Air Force. So at the end of the day, talking to all the recruiters, I decided to enlist as a C17 crew chief. And so, like, I think I just turned. It was like, December of 99, so it's like 1920. And then off I went to Lachlan Air Force Base for basic training.

[Sean Ryan]

How long did it take you to fold once you were living in your car when your parents said, get out?

[Dale Stark]

I think it was around six months.

[Sean Ryan]

You lasted six months?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Nice, nice. That's longer than I would have expected, but right on, right on. So you enlisted?

[Dale Stark]

Yep. So I enlisted in the Air Force and went off to basic training to be a crew chief at that time.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, before we get into your military career, let's take a quick break.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Folks.

[Sean Ryan]

You know it.

[Advertisement Speaker]

America has never been this close to collapse. To make matters worse, we're right around the corner from an unprecedented political powder keg. And, folks, the sparks are flying. But smart Americans know this and are fighting back by investing in emergency preparedness now while they still can. And I strongly urge you to do the same by Going to prepare with Sean.com right now. @ my Patriot Supply you'll find the best in class survival, food critical, potentially life saving gear like solar generators, biomass stoves, water filters, heirloom seeds and much, much more. Everything you'll need to deal with what's right around the corner for this country. My Patriot Supply is the nation's largest and most trusted emergency preparedness company and has helped over 3 million American families prepare for the unthinkable. Their famous delicious food kits, which are packed in ultra durable heavy duty pouches, deliver over 2,000 calories a day and can last up to two and a half decades in storage. Plus, your essential supplies ship lightning fast, which frankly these days could make all the difference. Order by 3pm and your supplies will ship that same day in discreet unmarked boxes. Go to prepare with Sean.com right now so you can join the ranks of the elite Americans who are ready for what's coming.

[Sean Ryan]

Have you struggled to find tees that.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Fit right and feel good? Are you tired of the boxy, unflattering look? Let me tell you about True Classic. True Classic makes T shirts, hoodies, jeans and more in multi packs that actually fit like a premium piece of clothing tailored just to you. And you can get this premium fit at a super affordable price. I love the fitted T shirts and hoodies from True Classic. They fit perfectly, wear well and I feel great in them. The holidays are here and True Classic's ultra comfortable perfect fitting essentials make for the perfect gift for you. And if you're a woman, that special man in your life. So if you're ready to upgrade your closet, shop now and unlock big savings during their huge holiday sale, just go to my exclusive [e-mail] SRS to save. That's TrueClassic.com SRS. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. End the year with holiday cheer. Thanks to True Classic.

[Sean Ryan]

All right, Dale, we're getting into your military career now. So you joined the Air Force to be a crew chief or not? I'm sorry, not a crew chief. Crew chief, correct.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay, let's talk about day one in the military you just came from. It sounds like kind of a childhood life of debauchery and now it's, it's time for some serious discipline. So how did that, how'd that work?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it was pretty natural fit. So my dad was pretty disciplined, you know, with us growing up. He had went to military school as a kid and you know, and then I'm just straight out of two years of college level wrestling. So I'm as fit as you can be. I mean, we had wrestlers train really hard. You know, we had 10K Tuesday where they literally get us in the team bus, drop us 10k away from practice, and we would run to practice every Tuesday. So, you know, and then you're in Air Force basic training. So it's not gonna be that tough for you in that situation. So it just like, was immediately felt like almost like a relief. It was like, oh, I can. I can be good at this. Like, I don't have to worry about money. I don't have to worry about where I'm gonna eat next. You know, I don't have to worry about anything except for whatever the task is right in front of me. So basic training was kind of a breeze. I was a honor graduate out of BMT and then just right onto tech school from there.

[Sean Ryan]

So just rewinding real quick, something. Were you. Did you have a relationship with your parents when you joined or were you guys not speaking?

[Dale Stark]

We were speaking. Yeah, we were speaking, but there was a lot of bitterness. Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you think they were proud of you for making the decision to go into the military or.

[Dale Stark]

Oh, yeah. They couldn't have been more proud. I mean, they were. They were ecstatic. They were. You know, they went to my basic training graduation and they, they couldn't have been happier. They, you know, looking back, you know, the tough love thing, they just, they wanted the best for me and they had seen so many people just kind of get stuck in that phase of life where, hey, you're done with school and you're not really progressing towards the next thing. At least, you know, I was kind of going through the motions, but I really wasn't. I was getting terrible grades in community college. Yeah, look, this is. These are not the brightest bulbs out of high school. And I'm getting like, D's and C's and F's. So it's not like I was showering myself in glory. If I had been doing great, I'm sure it would have been an entirely different story. But, you know, I'm getting terrible grades, getting home at 2am every night. So, yeah, they did the tough love thing and when I got on the path, they couldn't have been happier.

[Sean Ryan]

Good.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So I just kind of cruised through basic training and then off to C17 Tech School, where you learn how to be a mechanic. And I was in Shepherd Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, Texas.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. And that went pretty smooth. And that was actually the first kind of real introduction I had to the A10. And so the nice thing about the military, which almost everybody who went in and talks about this is, it doesn't matter where you came from, it doesn't matter your background. If you had to get in with multiple waivers for being arrested.

[Sean Ryan]

Nice.

[Dale Stark]

It's like, okay, you met the threshold. And now everybody starts in the same, same, you know, same place.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And that was just such a relief because, like when I was going to school, I remember feeling like, you know, kind of taking on a little bit of a victim mentality, like, this isn't fair. Why do I have to work and go to school and wrestle? My friends don't have to work. Their parents are taking care of it, you know, and so you kind of get that victim mentality if you're not careful. Well, now all that doesn't matter and you don't have to worry about money. I feel like I was rich. It was like an E1. I'm like, wait a minute, I have no expenses and I'm getting like 400 bucks every two weeks. This is awesome. This is great. You know, so I thought it. I really enjoyed it. It was like if you're a very goal oriented person, it's very like mapped out for you. It's like they give you the syllabus, here's what we're doing. We're all in class, the same class. Then you can study in your off time. Here's when the test is going to be, here's what's going to be on the test. So it's just all laid out for you. And then I'm starting to stack up some wins. I get the top, graduated out of basic training and then tech schools going really smooth. And I start realizing like, oh, like maybe this is, this is for me is kind of where I started feeling like this is a good, good path that I'm on.

[Sean Ryan]

What year, what time frame is this?

[Dale Stark]

I raised my right hand on in December of 99.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

And then I was in the delayed entry program for, I forget, a couple months. So this is early 2000.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay. So just before September 11th.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So before we get to September 11th, can you. What does a crew chief do on a SU17?

[Dale Stark]

You're the, you're the, basically the chief mechanic. So you do all the servicing, you do most of the maintenance. That's, that's just kind of routine maintenance. And then you sign off on the jet when the pilots come out and they're ready to fly.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

You're basically the lead crew. Chief. If there's more in depth maintenance, then it would go to the back shop. So like the hydraulic specialist or the engine specialist or the avionics specialist or whatever that may be. But you're kind of overseeing the overall like health and care of the airplane when it's not in the air. But it's a, it's a really cool opportunity for a young person because, I mean, you know, I just told you where my background was and now I'm working on this multimillion dollar airplane and once you get a little experience, you can go and go on the missions with the aircraft. And so now I'm traveling all over the country and all over the world and it's really a cool experience.

[Sean Ryan]

Nice, nice. So I'm not sure where to inject this into the interview, so we'll just do it now, but because we're talking early 2000 time frame. So where are you on September 11, 2001?

[Dale Stark]

Okay. So I finished out my time as a crew chief, so I finished up tech school, then I went to Charleston, South Carolina, and that's where I got picked up on an ROTC scholarship.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So as soon as I got to my unit, so I did, like I said, great in bmt, did great in tech school, and then got a great start in Charleston. And I started realizing that, hey, maybe I could actually become a pilot and maybe I can get good grades if I actually go to class and pay attention. So I started knocking out classes in my off time. Still training.

[Sean Ryan]

What kind of classes?

[Dale Stark]

Just basically my undergraduate.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, so you're working, you're back in school.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, so I'm trying to, like, I'm realizing. So I had this epiphany. So when we're at tech school, we're at the same base as the pilot training base, one of the pilot training bases. So I'm talking to these guys flying the T37 and the T38, going through pilot training like they're at the cafeteria, they're at the BX or whatever. And so. And they're basically spelling all this out of what it takes to become a pilot. And they're like, okay, here's what it is. You take the standardized test, they look at your gpa, your physical fitness test, and like anything else in the military, you can kind of reverse engineer it. So you're like, well, if I want to be competitive, here's the cut line and here's the criteria for that. And I'm going, I think I could do that. Like, I can get good grades if I have this, like, fire under my ass, you know? So as I'm. Even before I even get to my first base, I was thinking that that's what I wanted to do, that I'm going to just take this and run with it. So I get to my first base and I just start. Basically, after about six months, I start putting together my paperwork to go to officer training. So I'm working as a crew chief again. I'm taking these, like, challenge exams, these CLEP tests. So I'm studying on my own, challenging the courses, and all of a sudden they're like, okay, well, your standardized test scores were good because I, again, I just became fanatical about that goal. So I'm like, to do that, you need to be. You have to be good at your primary job. If I fail as a crew chief, this isn't going to work. But I also need to. You know, I didn't have any math background to speak of. I didn't really pay attention at all in high school, so really junior high either. So I was basically building it from the ground up. But I was smart enough to figure out what I needed to do to get where I needed to be on this testing. So like I said, they made it very clear what the test was going to be on so you could just shore up those areas of your weaknesses. So when I took the aptitude test, I was middling to slightly below average in every area except for pilot aptitude. I was top 10%.

[Sean Ryan]

No shit.

[Dale Stark]

Because there's a hand, eye coordination part of it. I was always a good athlete. I maxed the physical fitness test, and then I did pretty good on every other category for that test. So the Air Force has gotten pretty good at being able to identify the characteristics that would make you good at the job. I mean, they've been doing it for a while.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So for some reason, though, they were able to identify that. And I was just really fortunate to have some good leaders at that time. There was a group commander that was just an awesome guy. I'd gone on some trips with him, and he's just like, what do you want to do? What are your goals? And I told him I wanted to be a pilot, and he's like, I think you could do it. And so I just got support early on and I just went for it. So I did everything that was required for the application and got accepted for an ROTC scholarship. So within a year and a half, so I'm living in my car. Year and a half later, the Air Force is Cutting me loose on a full scholarship to get my undergrad.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

And go to pilot training. So I was.

[Sean Ryan]

So you crushed it?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I just, I, like, I didn't go home. I didn't. It's hard to articulate. Like, I try to tell people like, this is what I had to do to make that happen. They're like, I'm gonna do that. I want to do that. And then they're like, hey, do you want to go to like, you know, Chili's tonight and talk about it? And I'm like, dude, you're not getting it. Like there's no more Chili's. Like there's no more anything. Like you are going to. If you want to do with what I did, with the capabilities that I had, maybe someone smarter than me could have done it, done it better. But that's, that's your new life is studying, working, training, sleeping. There's no more hours in the day. So I just, I just went all in on it and it magically worked out. I mean, I think if I tried to do that a thousand more times, it would probably, you know, fail 999 times. Like it was just all the circumstances just lined up perfectly. It's kind of pre 911 too. So they would cut you loose for programs like that back then. After 911 hit, there was like a stop loss that lasted many years. So they cut me loose to go back to school just right before 9 11. It was in August of 2001.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

So I, I think it was August 18th. I separate from the Air Force. I joined the Air Force reserves while I'm a cadet and show up at the school. At this point I only need two years left just based on what I did pass in community college and all the challenge exams and the courses that I had done while I was in. So I'm on a two year ROTC scholarship and I'm sitting in the cafeteria eating breakfast, getting ready to go to class. And the news is on and I watch, watch the planes impact.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow. What was your. I mean, what was the first thought that went through your head?

[Dale Stark]

I just like wanted to kick ass. Like, I just remember thinking like, oh like we have to go, you know, we have to go get these guys. And it just increased my motivation even more. Like I just felt like, hey, we're under attack. There's this evil threat out there and people need to step up and do their part. And I knew that. I just wanted to get through training as quick as possible and I wanted to get in the fight and that's how I felt at the time.

[Sean Ryan]

What was your. Did you have any prior experience with a 10s? You kind of brought that up.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So my, like, crew chief, fundamentals instructor. So you're basically assigned to one main instructor. He was an A10 crew chief, and he was a Gulf War veteran. So the whole time we're going through that course, I'm hearing stories about the A10, you know, crushing tanks and Scud hunting. And he, like, he had all these stories that were just fascinating to me. And it just. I just again, became kind of obsessed with the idea of flying this airplane. And the A10 is so simple to work on. It's very straightforward. So they use that for your basic crew chief training. So say you learn about the fundamentals of a hydraulic system, per se. So you're in the classroom. Here's the reservoir, here's the pump, here's the lines, here's the, you know, the different types of valves, whatever it may be. You do the classroom instruction, and then you go out to the A10 and you pull off the panels and there it is. You can see it. It's, you know, it was designed for ease of maintenance so it can operate in these austere environments. So it's a perfect airplane to learn the basics of being a mechanic on. So I'm sitting in the cockpit of this thing, you know, that's in the hangar for maintenance, looking through the heads up display. And, you know, I'm still a young guy. Even though I took kind of the practical route to be a technician, thinking more of like, hey, this could lead to a job, I still wanted to be, you know, kind of rose that desire to be a warrior within me. And then, you know, he had this story of. He's like, there was a surfer guy and he flew, like, right over the top of us, went inverted and gave us the hang loose. And he's like, I could see his hand. That's how low they fly.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

And I remember just thinking, like, how cool is that? Like, I mean, you're basically like, it combines everything that I loved. You know, you're like.

[Sean Ryan]

So when you went to. When you went to school, you know, with the intention to become a pilot, I mean, your intention the entire time was to be an A10 pilot?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So once I decided that I was going down that path, I just wanted to fly the A10. Like, I just. The airplane kind of captured me in a way that none of the others did. And then when 9, 11 hit, I knew that that airplane would be critical in this war that was going to unfold. So my ROTC commander was an AC130 guy and so he basically laid it out. He's like, this situation will impact the rest of your careers and probably your whole lives. So he's like, get ready for the long war because this is not going to be over quick. And so I knew there was going to be a lot of ground combat. I always thought like the, like the F15 and you know, then the F22 that came out after F16, I always thought they were awesome. But in my mind at that point I thought they're more oriented towards air to air and our generation is going to be fighting this counterinsurgency. And so if I want to contribute, I need to get into the air to ground game. And so yeah, I just wanted to fly the A10.

[Sean Ryan]

Very cool.

[Dale Stark]

And it became a little unhealthy because I felt like anything other than achieving that goal was a complete failure. And if I couldn't do that, I just might as well just quit or die trying.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, you had mentioned earlier that you got some laser focus.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. And it's just like I watched all the documentaries, read all the books and that's what I wanted to do.

[Sean Ryan]

So let's fast forward through your time at school and pick up when you come back into the Air Force.

[Dale Stark]

Okay, so and now it's finished it up in two years. So now I'm a second lieutenant in the Air Force and getting ready for pilot training. So go off to Pensacola, there's an exchange.

[Sean Ryan]

So hold on real quick. So did you have a guarantee that if you went through school that you are guaranteed to get into the pilot program?

[Dale Stark]

No, I had to compete. So at the end of your junior year you are basically track selected for a job in the Air Force. So I finished my junior year and now they take a combination of factors. So now same types of stuff. So your gpa, standardized test, commander's recommendation, physical fitness and basically give you a number, you know, your overall score and then you're racking stacked against every other, you know, cadet that wants to be a pilot. And then there's a cut line. Everyone above it goes to pilot training. Everyone below it has to compete for something else. So I did pretty good in rotc. I graduated with honors. Now for my undergrad in history and then off to pilot training. So yeah, nothing's guaranteed. You always have to compete for what you're going to do.

[Sean Ryan]

What about what type of plane you're going to fly?

[Dale Stark]

So how that works is Pilot training is essentially split up into two parts and it's always changing. So the way the details of how they do this. So I'm going back to my era, obviously. But after the first phase of flight training, they put you on a track. So there's fighter bomber track, which is you go fly the T38 and that's for the guys that are going to be tactical.

[Sean Ryan]

What is the T38?

[Dale Stark]

The T38 Talon is a twin engine tandem cockpit. It's a trainer aircraft. But it looks a lot like the F5 that you saw that they call the MiG in Top Gun, the original. So it's just basically like a 50s era fast jet.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

It's super hard to fly. It's got like a tiny wing and it's really fast and you don't have any experience at that speed. But. But yeah. So you finish up the first phase of training and then they track select you again. So fighter bomber heavies, so like cargo aircraft or tankers and then like helicopters and then C130s are their own track. So you're constantly being sorted as you.

[Sean Ryan]

Go and you have no input on this.

[Dale Stark]

You have your dream sheet. So the way you get what you want is you graduate higher and then they match that up with what's available, the needs of the Air force. So number one guy say he wants to fly the tactical track go T38s. Well out of say like 35 people, there's five or six go into the fighter bomber track. So top five or six guys that have identified that that's what they want to do, go on that track, on down the line until the bottom, the bottom graduate gets what's remaining.

[Sean Ryan]

What does nobody want?

[Dale Stark]

In my era it was the awacs. So the big command and control, like the giant heavy with a big radar.

[Sean Ryan]

Above you, what does everybody want?

[Dale Stark]

It changes the way it was for us at the very beginning of class. They're like, who wants to be a fighter pilot? And nearly everybody raised their hand. And then like three months later they're like, who wants to be a fighter pilot? And like half the people raise their hand because training, it's very difficult. You're just getting kicked in the face every day. Like as you know, coming from your background, we don't have time to pat you on the back and tell you how good you are and how much potential you have. And it's okay, you did good yesterday, but you just had a bad day. There's no time to talk about all the things you did right because that's the standard, that's the expectation. So you have to have a thick skin because everything revolves around the things that you need to improve on. So it doesn't feel good to every day just get shredded and you just, it just breaks you down over and over and over again. And then I think a lot of people halfway through that start going, yeah, I don't know if I want this life continuing on. Because if you go the heavy track, it's just known as being a little more chill. Like, so. So this phase of my life is going to be over and then I can travel the world. And I'm sure it's an awesome career. I'm not diminishing it in any way. But not everybody wants to again get. Keep getting kicked in the teeth for another three years.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So then, yeah, so then about half the people still wanted to fly fighters. And there was probably the top half of the class as you start to sort. And then that's about how it was at the end. But then it was early 9 11, I would say, like it started. It was, I'd say traditionally in the Air Force, in that timeframe, everybody, the best guys want to fly the F15C. Cause that was a strictly an air to air platform. So it was like, that's like straight out of Top Gun, right? You just go crush migs. And those guys are better at what they do. So F15 still flies, but a lot of those guys went on to the F22 and they'll just kill anything that moves in the sky. Like, their capability is unbelievable. Like you would not want to face these guys in the air. They're just single mission, single minded. Eth Breton, you know, the whole deal, just nothing but air to air focused. Like is just every day, all day, all about killing migs. That's what they live for. And so, and this is a very difficult mission because if you're talking like 4v4, 4v8, there's all these little fur balls everywhere. And the guys that are good at it, they're fighting. And they know where everybody else in their formation is fighting. And they're tracking it like second by second. And they know exactly the right ways to deconflict the flight, to make the right radio calls, to recreate what happened in the debrief to a precision that just is mind blowing. So traditionally, the very best guys wanted to go do that mission. But when 911 hit, then I would say there was starting to be a divergent because of the type of mission that the Global, you Know the global war on terror was going to bring to us. So then you had a lot more guys want to fly the A10 and then the F15E and then the F15, or, sorry, the F16 because they had an air to ground component. So I would say at that point, the best guys still want to fly kind of fighter attack. And then it was just varied, depending on personality as far as whether they want to fly after pilot training.

[Sean Ryan]

Interesting, interesting. So when you get to. When you get to flight school, how long is it before you're actually in a plane off the ground?

[Dale Stark]

It varies, but I think it's like you're waiting to start because, like, any program that's managing a large number of people, they might not flow you in immediately. I think I sat for like, two months just waiting to start. Then I want to say it's six weeks of ground school, and I think that included some simulator time. And then you're in the air with your instructor.

[Sean Ryan]

What's the first plane you flew?

[Dale Stark]

Well, they did send me to get a private pilot's license in Cessna kind of after. I think it was after college, but before pilot training. And then the first military plane I flew was the T34C with the Navy. So I was in an exchange program. Took a handful of Navy and Marines and put them through Air Force primary training and then Air Force. A handful of Air Force guys went and trained with the Navy.

[Sean Ryan]

How'd that feel, your first time up?

[Dale Stark]

Oh, it was incredible. It was like. It was almost surreal. It was like, I can't believe I actually am pulling this off, you know, but. And then you quickly snap to it because you're behind the aircraft. So they talk about just like, hanging from the vertical stab. Like things are happening before you can compute what you're supposed to do. So say there's a certain amount of tasks, even just for something simple as coming into land. So as you're on short final or getting ready for short final, you need to drop the flaps, you know, get below certain airspeed, drop the landing gear. You know, you're going through all these tasks. Well, now you're inside of the minimum range to get all those things done because your central processor is just bogged down. You're still thinking about what you messed up 10 minutes ago.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So it just hits you like, okay, this is incredible. I can't believe I made it here. And I don't know if I'm going to be good enough to actually do this because it just seems overwhelming. You're looking at all the instruments you're behind, and it's tough.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, Yeah. I can't imagine. I tried to fly once at Assess. Now I ran it into the middle of the. I didn't get very far. I ran it into the, like, the grass media and at the airport. And the guy that was teaching me was like, what the fuck are you doing?

[Dale Stark]

That's so funny.

[Sean Ryan]

I didn't know you stared at him.

[Dale Stark]

That's a bad instructor.

[Sean Ryan]

Hey, I was. Yeah, it was. Plus, I don't like heights, but. So what kind of stuff were you learning ground school?

[Dale Stark]

You're just learning the systems of the aircraft. You're learning some basic aerodynamics, you're learning about aviation weather. Just going through the main emergencies for, you know how you're gonna handle these different malfunctions that can happen in the airplane. So they say it's like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose. And that's what it feels like. So you're just. They're just blasting you with information for eight hours a day, and you're trying to absorb it all are there.

[Sean Ryan]

Like. I just want you to go through the whole timeline, you know, of your experience. You go to ground school, six weeks, then you're in your first. You're in the air for the first time in a military craft. Is it broken up into phases?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, exactly. So there's what they call contact phase, which is just basic of flying the aircraft. Daytime, visual, flight rules. So similar to kind of the stuff you'd learn in a Cessna. So just how to fly in the pattern, how to land the airplane, how to get out to the airspace, how to recover from stalls. You know, it's just the. Just the fundamentals of flying in the most kind of benign environment possible. So then you go through and there's like, format, or it's not necessarily in this order, but there's instrument phase. So now you're learning how to fly when you can't see outside just by looking at your instruments. And there's aerobatics, formation phase, low level, and then kind of tying it all together.

[Sean Ryan]

So when they. When you guys. When. I love to get a little more descriptive on each phase, but when you got like. As they continue to sort the class out, I mean, does the class get broken up or is it all the same pipeline?

[Dale Stark]

You're all in the same pipeline, so you're all going through, and if someone gets ahead, they'll kind of slow them down, and then people catch up. And at any time throughout this process, you're Three flights away from going home. So you fail a ride, you go to a progress check with your flight commander, you pass that ride, continue on in the syllabus. You fail that ride, you're on an elimination ride with your squadron commander or someone he designated to do that for him. So it's a tremendous amount of pressure because you have this in the back of your head and you see it happen, is just you have a bad week and your hopes and dreams are gone.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So you see that guy shows up Monday morning, no problems, and started to out process Friday afternoon.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. What's the attrition rate like?

[Dale Stark]

I don't know exactly. It's not that high. I want to say like 10, 15% when I was going through. And they, they have a pretty thorough vetting process. So by the time you get there, you know, you've, you've probably have a pretty good GPA through college, you've done through all the standardized testing. So they, I think they do a pretty good job of finding the people who it's just not for. And then if you're having a hard time, they might have a community that would make sense for your skill set. So say you barely make it through formation phase. Well, there's aircraft you can fly that don't necessarily fly in close formation all the time, you know, so if you're capable and you're good enough to get there and you don't quit, there's a pretty good chance I'll get you through.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

But when you're going through that as a student, you don't feel that.

[Sean Ryan]

What, why do planes, why do you guys fly in a formation?

[Dale Stark]

There would be a lot of reasons. So they call it basic admin. It might just be getting to the target area as easy as possible. So say there's a bunch of weather and you're getting vectored around by air traffic control and you're leading a four ship, you might just want to bring everyone in close formation. If it's really busy airspace or something and they just fly visually off you and then everyone else deconflicting around you doesn't have to deconflict from this. Massive airplanes that are all a mile and a half apart from each other, they could all be close in. So yeah, so basically it's for close in formation is for admin. And then you have tactical formations which are obviously more spread out and that's for like employing and surviving and killing the target.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

So yeah, there's a, there's an endless amount of discussion on the tactics it would, you know, the skill set that you need to be able to employ these airplanes.

[Sean Ryan]

What is the, I mean how, how is the relationship between instructor and student? Is it, is it like they're yelling and screaming?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it just depends on the instructors. Like it was funny. Like I, I flew with, one of my first instructors was a Marine and he sitting behind you in the T34 and he would just get furious. He'd grab his water bottle and throw it at the back of your head and you'd keep tally of things you screwed up and make you push the ground when you land, you know, so you land and you're sitting there like under the wing of your airplane just doing like 100 push ups or whatever. He tallied up and then some of the guys were like, they're like, man, this is like shore duty for us. This is fine. Like just like here's what we're going to work on today. Like it really came down to the individual. The Navy is way more chill in primary flight training than the Air Force.

[Sean Ryan]

No kidding.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, absolutely. The Navy's like, it was, it was an awesome experience. They're like, I remember that a lot of the IPs are like chilling on the beach and surfing and you know, doing their thing and they're.

[Sean Ryan]

What's an ip?

[Dale Stark]

Sorry, Instructor Pilot.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I'll try not to use acronyms, but yeah. So the instructor pilots overall, they had a real big picture. You know, they're still, they're still a standard to meet. Like, like I was saying, like if it's just, they might just have a smile on their face as they do it. They stab you in the guts. But overall I really enjoyed, enjoyed flying with those guys.

[Sean Ryan]

What did you find to be the most challenging part of flight school?

[Dale Stark]

Well, all of flight school. So after you finish the T34, then you're track selected, as I mentioned. So I'm off to the T38 now. I'm in Vance Air Force Base in Oklahoma and I'm going flying a 150 knot prop airplane to flying a supersonic jet with a tiny wing, which the syllabus has you soloing in like six rides. So that entire program of the T38 was excruciating. Like I have never felt that level of stress in my life. So just trying to keep up. I'm the kind of guy who has like a slow learning curve. So there's like, there's standards, right, like little milestones along the way and then you hit an end of block and a check R So I get to the end of the block and checkride and my learning curve keeps going, going up. And then I hit where I'm supposed to be at that like exactly when I have to, and then start over, like sucking.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So, and in my mind I'm like, if I don't get an A10, like I'm just. This whole thing was for nothing, you know, I don't. And like there's. There was literally one. There was one a 10 out of my entire class. So I'm feeling like, are you serious?

[Sean Ryan]

So do you know, hold on. So do you know what the slots are that you're competing? Competing for? Like when you show up to Clyde's school, are they saying, we got one A10 slot, we got two C17 slots, we've got six F22 slots.

[Dale Stark]

You don't know exactly, but you kind of have an idea just based on the trend data.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So you kind of see where it's going and you realize like, typically there was one per class. Couple F16s, F15e and like an F. Oh, sorry. A couple F16s, F15e AND an F15c. That was like pretty standard. So if you have a single minded goal of what you want to fly, you might be very disappointed because threading that needle is very difficult.

[Sean Ryan]

So what was it like on the first sorting in your class?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, so they brought us in and I think I was the first one they told. And they're just like, Lieutenant Stark, T38. And then right after me was my buddy John Deloney, who went on to fly the F15C and the F22. And they're like, Lieutenant Deloney, T38. And we're just like, yes, we're so stoked. It was just this huge relief. And then they go through, they're like T1, T1, T1. There's a whole bunch of cargo aircraft to fly and then like C130 helicopter. And then you're done. Everyone's just like, well, I guess we're done.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. Damn. A lot of disappointment or.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, little disappointed. There's some people that, you know, their dad was an F4 pilot and they wanted to be a fighter pilot and it just wasn't going to happen. And they're devastated. But most people, I would say, start seeing the good and what they're going to be doing and you kind of have a idea of where you're at in the class as you're going through.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha.

[Dale Stark]

So if you're passing most of your rides and you're getting decent scores. You can look around and be like, well, they're not necessarily. Not everyone's making it through is effortless, effortlessly. That's not the right word. But you're struggling, but you're still progressing on time. And that's not the case for everybody. So you start to kind of have the natural hierarchy kind of develop in the class so there's not a ton of surprises.

[Sean Ryan]

So you get, you go through your first sorting and then, and then what happens?

[Dale Stark]

So now I leave the Navy and I go out to Vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma and start to fly the T38. So that's where you get your fighter bomber pilots from. So that's six months flying the T38. And it's basically the same syllabus that you just went through, but now it's in a much more advanced aircraft.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay, what was your first time like going up in that?

[Dale Stark]

It was like, it was, it was devastating because it felt impossible. Like, I was like, there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. Like, the airplane was so fast I was not able to keep up. Like, it's like CPU overload. Like, I'm still thinking about what I need to do for pre takeoff checks. And we're 10 miles from the base.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

And my instructor's basically doing everything, you know. And you've practiced it, rehearsed it, studied it a ton, been in the simulator. And it's just, it's so difficult to make that transition. And it's a really hard airplane to fly. Like, we've lost a lot of pilots in the T38. In fact, they're getting ready to replace it with an airplane that will be much easier to fly, still prepare you to fly, you know, tactical aircraft. But it's tough, man. And if you make a minor mistake, you're going to end up as a fireball at the end of the Runway. So it's deadly serious.

[Sean Ryan]

This is the one you were saying that's similar to a MiG.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay, so if it's so difficult, why do you think they chose that aircraft?

[Dale Stark]

It's been around since the 50s, so I think it's just been a effective, like, it's like if you can fly the T38, you can fly anything.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you think it's a wise decision to move to a easier aircraft to fly?

[Dale Stark]

I think so. I think as we move, as we move on to more advanced fighters, they're actually not that difficult to fly. Like, just the basics of taking off and Landing and flying the airplane. They're extremely stable aircraft. So I think that they will be effective and there'll be a lot more use of avionics that will be similar to your follow on assignments in fighter aircraft. So yeah, I think it will work and I think it'll save a lot of people's lives.

[Sean Ryan]

Is there any animosity within the pilot community that they're moving to an easier aircraft to fly?

[Dale Stark]

I don't think so. I think most, most people are looking at it going, it's time.

[Sean Ryan]

That's good.

[Dale Stark]

It's past time and we've all lost friends in that airplane too. And for just minor little errors, you know, like if you forget to drop the flaps on the final turn, which guess what students do all the time, and you get 5 knots slow, the aircraft will stall and go nose down and impact the ground and kill you. So there's very little margin for error in that airplane.

[Sean Ryan]

Shit. Have they already made that change?

[Dale Stark]

They're still flying them. I don't know exactly where they're at in the transition, but they've identified the new aircraft. It's a Boeing product, so who knows? Uh, oh, probably be mini donors.

[Sean Ryan]

Don't blow the whistle on that. You might get assassinated.

[Dale Stark]

Right, yeah, I'll leave that one alone. But we'll see how that goes.

[Sean Ryan]

Interesting, interesting. How many sortings are there?

[Dale Stark]

So now you get to the. So the first big sort is after primary training. Then you go to the T38 and then at the end of this six months, then they assign you to your actual airframe that you're going to fly for the rest of your career, for the most part. So out of my class it was six guys, I think. And according to our flight commanders, they really.

[Sean Ryan]

Six pilots total in the program.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit. Out of all the Air force. And how many years long is this training?

[Dale Stark]

The whole program is a year.

[Sean Ryan]

So every year there's like they're starting.

[Dale Stark]

A new class every few weeks.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So I'm not exactly sure what the timeline is. They vary that based on demand signal from the combat air forces. But I want to say every like three to six weeks they start a new class.

[Sean Ryan]

Shit. That's still not very many pilots a year.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I mean you start out with 35 and now six of you are in this new track and out of that it might be three, it might be five. Usually actually get a fighter aircraft.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. So was that the last phase?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So you get done with that, then you get assigned to the aircraft you're gonna Fly.

[Sean Ryan]

All right, let's not go there yet. Sure, let's stay in training. So I mean, what questions should I be asking you about training?

[Dale Stark]

No, these are all good questions. The biggest like thing that I have that stands out to me from this experience is just, it's like how brutally stressful it was every day. And at this point now your instructors are looking at you like, hey, this guy's going to be on my wing, potentially in combat in a matter of months. And is he cut out for this? He's going to be in a single seat airplane. The instructor is not going to be there for you to save you. So it's all going to be you. And so they're just making sure, leaving every, you know, making sure there's no stones unturned. So if you have a weakness, there's no way to paper over it. Like so they will find it and exploit it. And until you either figure it out or you go do something else.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So it's, you know, like, it's like any difficult transformation it has, you have to be under pressure. So by the end of that program, I mean, you're a very capable pilot. So six months of extreme stress and I had like a terrible checkride at the very beginning of the T38 program. So I'm essentially starting the program dead last in my class.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

I'm going like, like the whole time in the back of my mind they're going, they're going to send me to a bomber, I'm going to get a bomber, like. And I did not want to do that. So, you know, now being older, seen a little bit more and more mature. I know that those guys go on to have great careers and do amazing things, but you know, 22 year old me saw that as the biggest failure ever if I couldn't go fly the A10.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So it's just tough, man. It's like, I mean you go to bed, shut your eyes and you're still seeing like radials and instruments and different sight pictures that you need for flying this airplane. It just, they're turning you into just like a normal person, into someone who can fly a fighter by yourself. So it's difficult.

[Sean Ryan]

Is there? So in phase one and phase two, which we're covering right now, what I mean are you, is this straight up, this is how you fly the plane or is there any engagements happening, like using the weapons?

[Dale Stark]

Not during this phase. It's basic flying.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

Like again, contact, which is just taking off and landing stalls and falls. We call it just Learn how to recover from stalls, all your emergency procedures. Then it's aerobatics, you know, instruments, formation, low level. So this is, it's funny because it's so difficult. And then later on in your career, it's the stuff you don't even think about. You like. You cannot be an effective fighter pilot if you're thinking about flying the airplane.

[Sean Ryan]

So basically what you're saying is the fundamentals have to become muscle memory.

[Dale Stark]

Yes.

[Sean Ryan]

It's like, for me, that would be like shooting or you shouldn't be thinking about.

[Dale Stark]

You're not thinking about your controls and this and that. And then I'm going to pull the trigger. It's just an extension of your body. You have to strap on the jet and it just becomes a part of who you are. And you're thinking about, you know, fast forwarding now you're thinking about everything else that's going on in the battle space. And you're flying your airplane.

[Sean Ryan]

So flying it becomes flow state.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

It has to. Like, if you're focused inside your airplane, flying it, you can't manage the stack of all the aircraft and keep track of all the targets, threats, friendlies, artillery. Like, it's just impossible. So you, they, they build this into you. So then going forward, it just becomes second nature. You do it without thinking. How fast are you guys flying in the T38? I think the standard cruise speed was 300 knots.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. What is that, an mph?

[Dale Stark]

It's similar. There's like a minor variation, but then it's supersonic. So up at altitude you can break the sound barrier.

[Sean Ryan]

Man.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Sean Ryan]

I mean, what is that like?

[Dale Stark]

It's awesome.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you feel it?

[Dale Stark]

Oh, oh. When you break the sound barrier? No. It's funny, you just actually just see the little mock meter going. Okay, I guess. Cool. I've done something not everyone has done.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn, that's cool.

[Dale Stark]

My first solo in the T38 was pretty funny. So, you know, you've gone through all this training and finally they're like, they give you the keys to the airplane and they're like. The last thing they always tell you is don't do anything dumb, dangerous or different. You're going to fly this very generic profile. But what does everybody do? Go do something dumb, dangerous and different. So I remember sitting in the end of Runway waiting to take off and just being like, I'm looking to my left and right, seeing the jets. You know, you see yourself in the mirror and you've got the visor and the oxygen mask on. You're just like, I cannot believe this is happening. And you're like, I don't know if I can land. Like, you're like, I'm okay at it with the instructor coaching me, like, I don't know if I can pull this off, like, smoothly, you know? And like I said, people die trying, so it's no joke. But anyway, once you get cleared for takeoff, then it's just go time and you do what you're trained to do, and it's not so bad. But I get out to the airspace and I've got a 10,000 foot block. So that's my working airspace, and I'm scheduled for, like, 20 minutes out there.

[Sean Ryan]

What does that mean? Does that mean you can't go higher than 10,000ft?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So your block would be like, just as an example, it might be like your working airspaces within these, like, geographic confines, you have the altitude 10,000 to 20,000ft. And once you're established in that airspace, they'll keep all the other airplanes out of it, and you can maneuver how you wish, and you're not going to have to worry about deconflicting with other aircraft. So I get out to my working airspace, and the first thing I do is get to the very bottom of it, put in full blower, go as fast as humanly possible, and then just this is something we've never done practicing, of course. And just point the nose directly at the sky and go full aileron deflection. So now I'm just like, corkscrewing.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Dale Stark]

In the vertical. And I'm like, this is like. It's like, this is awesome. Like, I can't believe I have this, like, Ferrari and I can do anything I want with it. And I'm like. I'm like, man, I am kicking ass right now. This is so cool. I glance at my altimeter and I'm like, 5,000ft out the top of my airspace.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, shit.

[Dale Stark]

You know, you're getting into, like, airline territory now. I'm like, oh, damn it. Like, this is not good. So I like, rip it to idle, pull the nose down. And now the jet is like, now I'm screaming, oh, my God. At the ground. And the T38 has a tiny wing, which means it has a huge turn circle. So when you're at speed, like, the radius of the turn is ginormous, right? So now I'm like, trying to dish out this turn. And I'm like. I'm like, max. Performing the aircraft. I can't pull any Harder. And I'm just trying to dish it out. I go through the top of my block, and I'm still basically vertical. And I barely bring it back down to altitude right at the bottom of the floor, like 10,000ft. And now my heart rate is racing. I'm at like 200 beats per minute. And I'm just going, I am such an idiot. I'm going to get kicked out of this program. And it's like the first solo. So I, like, stand the throttles up, put it in 30 degrees angle bank, and for the next, like, 24 minutes, I just fly this perfect circle around the airspace.

[Sean Ryan]

Can they see you? Can they see what you're doing now?

[Dale Stark]

They can see everything. Back then, not nearly as much. So they might have, like a radar feed, but it's like, you know, have latency.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And anyhow, so then I like, I bring the jet back. No issues. I walk in. First thing I do, I kind of look at the ops desk, see what they're going to say. They're like, hey, welcome back. You got another sortie in 20, you know, two hours. Get ready. And I'm like, okay, we're good. We're good.

[Sean Ryan]

How do you not get sick doing that? I just remember when your corks growing up at 300 miles an hour and then going straight down.

[Dale Stark]

I don't know. I think air sickness is a lot of. It's psychological. This is my view. I'm not a flight doctor, but I just refused to get air sick. I was like, I saw people wash out because of air sickness, and I was just like, I'm not gonna get sick. I'm just gonna look outside. It's not gonna happen. I think that maybe some people are more prone to it, but I think exposure, you know, it helps. So if you're flying all the time, you're used to being hot, sweaty maneuvering. You just. Your body acclimates it like it does to anything else.

[Sean Ryan]

Can you explain the G force?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So as you turn, pull on the stick. It's just that centrifugal force is pulling you down into your seat. So, you know, if whatever your weight is, you have to times that by the number of G forces. So right now we're at 1G. Right. So if we were at 10G's, you would. Your frame would be carrying 10 times the amount of your body weight. So as you're under G, like, so as I'm pulling out of that turn, you're doing what's called an anti g straining maneuver. So you have A G suit on, which looks like a pair of, like, cowboy chaps, and then they have air pockets in them. You plug that into the jet, and then it uses the pneumatic system to squeeze your legs tighter and tighter the harder you pull. So you do that in combination with an anti G straining maneuver, which is you just flex your legs, flex your butt, flex your abdomen, and keep high pressure in your lungs. And then you just take these quick, short, choppy breaths with. The idea is you're forcing all the blood to remain in your brain so you don't lose consciousness and die because you're by yourself.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

So you got to learn how to fly and fight in that environment. And that's a lot of the training is just getting. Finding out who's capable of doing that and then train yourself to be able to do it.

[Sean Ryan]

Was that hard for you to master that?

[Dale Stark]

It came pretty natural being, like, kind of a shorter, stockier guy. I think the guys that I saw that had problems pulling a lot of GS were kind of taller and skinnier. So it's like, I think the distance from your heart to your head has an impact and then just your overall musculature. So if you can hold that high tension in your body, you can just force that brain, that blood up to your brain a little bit easier.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow. Do a lot of people go out?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, especially in, like, the F16. Happens all the time. A lot of. I've lost friends that way.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, man.

[Dale Stark]

You know, it's. It's. They're pulling nine GS, which is a lot. The A10 Max, I think, was, like 7.5. But, yeah, they're pulling a ton of GS, and they're right on that threshold, and nobody wants to lose. Right. So they're. Your vision. As you start to G out, your vision starts going tunnel vision, blacking out around the periphery, and you're just looking right down the center, and then it just closes up, and guys go unconscious. But, like, even the best guys will fly in that gray area where they're, like, about ready to pass.

[Sean Ryan]

Whoa.

[Dale Stark]

Just. They want to, you know.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you do that?

[Dale Stark]

No. The A10 being primarily air to ground was not. This is. I'm talking more air to air now.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

A 10 is more just repetitive. Like, you're pulling GS off target and then off target maneuvering, so you're getting that continuous stress. But it's not like you're in a turning fight. And if you can just get your nose around, you can gun the guy. Or get a missile on him. Now that's where they are under that prolonged sustained G. And like, the thrust to weight ratio of those fighters is incredible. So they can just, you know, full blower, full turn and sustain that energy. So, yeah, it's a pretty dynamic environment.

[Sean Ryan]

I don't know how you do it even. Just doing elevators in a helicopter, man, going straight up. I feel like my brain's gonna go out my ass.

[Dale Stark]

Dude. It's so much better when you're flying yourself. It starts to feel just like an extension of your body, right? Like it's just you and the machine merge and you're just thinking about your mission and what you're trying to do in that moment. So if I. Yeah, I'd be way worse off in the back for sure.

[Sean Ryan]

Right on. So you go through. So you go through, you get through phase two and what happens?

[Dale Stark]

So now I'm a know that I'm borderline of what I'm gonna get. And essentially how it goes down is they bring you, you have an assignment night party and they bring you into the officers Club and all your friends and family are there and they bring someone up and they have different ways of doing it that are just funny, kind of make it seem random, but it's not. They have like big wheel of fortune and then there's your entire drop. So you get in the room and you're looking at like all the airplanes on the wheel of fortune, right? And like I said, they have many different ways of doing it. But then a guy like, they'll just call somebody up and they'll spin it and then they'll like stop it and then keep it going. You know, it's like someone's actually manipulating it and then it stops and they go grab that airplane and then spin it. The next guy does. And so you basically just get assigned where you're going to go. So for me, I had no idea what I was going to get. They don't tell you. And my flight commander knew how bad I wanted to fly the A10. In fact, approaching the end of pilot training, he had told me that There were no A10s in the drop, which was true. And I told him that I wanted to cross commission to the Marines and fly the Harrier or the Hornet. And I told them all about this cross commissioning program that I was going to do if I didn't get the A10. In my stupid mind, I thought like I could actually do that because there's an official program for transferring to other services. And he just Laughed. He's like, you have a 10 year commitment. The Air Force is not going to let you join the Marine. And I'm like, I'm having nightmares that I'm not going to get what I, you know, set out to do. I, I, I would have been again, it was a lot of immaturity at the time, but that's just how I felt about it. And anyhow, I got up there and they're just like, Lieutenant Stark. And they like messed with me a little bit. Showed different airplanes and then they're like, congratulations, a 10 to Tucson, Arizona. Then it was just total relief at that point.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn, man. Do you get pinned or anything like that?

[Dale Stark]

No, it's before you've got your wings.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

It's like you're, it's like maybe two weeks left. You have just a handful of sorties before you actually get your pilot wings.

[Sean Ryan]

So you get the A10. How long is it before you go to Tucson?

[Dale Stark]

So there's still some more training you need to do. So you go to survival school out in Spokane, Washington and you go to Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals, which is another washout program.

[Sean Ryan]

What'd you think of Searschool? I've never talked to a pilot about Searschool.

[Dale Stark]

I loved it.

[Sean Ryan]

You loved it?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I was like in my element, you know, like out of the woods, being just. Yeah, back in the woods I was with my buddy, my buddy John. We were kind of like combat pair together. And I'm a wrestler, so I'm used to not eating and cutting weight, used to being in the woods. So I had a great time. And then like everyone else is like starving to death. And I think I kind of like relished in this, the suffering. It was. Yeah, there's a lot you don't want to divulge about it because when someone goes through it, you want them to have that experience unfold so they get all the training value that they need out of it. But that survival school turns into your advanced beatings or your powder internment school or whatever they're calling it. So you end up as a pow and then you go, go through that. And it was, it was a great experience. Like, I mean, just going through the full range of emotions as you're thinking about all of Those, you know, POWs who've actually went through that and the guys at the Hanoi Hilton and Japan and Germany and just going back and you're like, this is scripted. We know that they're not going to kill us. It's not that stressful. I know when we're leaving here. So it's not the same, but you do reflect on what those guys have been through and what your mindset would be if you were captured. So I just thought it was a great experience.

[Sean Ryan]

Good, good. And so then you go to some type of a fighter school.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So now you have another six week program. It's called Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. It's in the T38 and it's the last, like, vetting before they actually let you go fly a fighter aircraft. So that program again is six weeks, and now you're starting to learn tactics. So you're taking everything you learned about the fundamentals of flying, and now you're flying in tactical formations. You're learning the communications, the formations, and everything you need for all the, like, air to air engagements. So that way when you get to your first squadron, you've got like the vocabulary and the basic understanding of how to set these things up. Then you're learning the basics of air to ground and, you know, so you're, you're going through the six week program and the way that the instructors are looking at it as now, these guys are really close to getting to a fighter squadron and this is our last chance to make sure they're good to go. So then that's also, like I said, a washout program. And in our era, we lost. I don't know the stats, but it was a fair amount of people, they were just getting ejected left and right.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

And I had such a hard time in T38s. I was pretty stressed out about heading out there. But for some reason, just a combination of luck and timing or whatever it was, I just flew right through that program. I think I busted one ride and passed the recheck and was done like two weeks before everyone else. So I was just like, life is good, man. I made it.

[Sean Ryan]

Right on, man. So I guess at that point you're heading to fly the A10.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. The next going out to fly the hog.

[Sean Ryan]

Let's, let's take a quick break and when we come back, we'll pick up right there.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Time is our most precious commodity. And I've heard from so many of my listeners who have asked for my advice about how they can spend it wisely to improve themselves and the people around them. That's why I'm excited that Hillsdale College is offering more than 40 free online courses in the most important and enduring subjects. You can learn about the works of C.S. lewis, the stories in the book of Genesis, the meaning of the US Constitution or the rise and fall of the Roman Republic with Hillsdale College's online courses, all available for free. That's right, for free. I personally recommend that you sign up for the Great American Story, A Land of Hope. In this course, you'll hear from Hillsdale College professors as they explore the history of America as a land of hope founded on high principles. In presenting the great triumphs and achievements of our nation's past, as well as the shortcomings and failures, it offers a broad and unbiased study essential to the cultivation of intelligent patriotism. The course is self paced so that you can start whenever and wherever. Start your course free the Great American Story A Land of Hope today. Go right now to Hillsdale Edu Srs to enroll. There's no cost and it's easy to get started. That's Hillsdale Edu Srs to register Hillsdale Edu Srs. Donald Trump is officially the next President of the United States of America. While millions of Americans are celebrating the victory, thousands of others are still concerned about their savings. The unfortunate truth is we still have a $35 trillion debt. The interest on that debt could now be larger than our entire defense budget for the first time in history. Plus, the wars that started during the Biden administration are still raging across the globe. So what can you do to help protect your savings? Many Americans are already taking action by reaching out to a top rated precious metals company. That's goldco. Right now, Goldco is offering a free gold and Silver kit to show you how precious metals like gold and silver could help you diversify your savings before it's too late. Visit seanlikesgold.com or call 855-936-gold to get your copy free of charge. Plus, you could receive up to a 10% instant match on bonus silver. For qualified accounts, visit seanlikesgold.com or call 855-936-GOLD. That's Sean likes gold.com performance may vary. Consult with your tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment decision.

[Sean Ryan]

All right, Dale, we're back from the break. You're getting ready to sit in and fly the A10 for the first time. Let's start right there.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, that was just an incredible experience. I mean, you've been through so much, you start to maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel a little bit like you're actually. You just can't believe you maneuvered through this maze and ended up exactly what you had set out to do. And the training in the A10 was just a great Experience like the mentality was, you're one of us now and we're going to train you how to employ this weapon system. And there are guys and gals who don't make it through that training, but it's not for lack of trying from the instructors. So you do have a little bit of relief from that constant pressure, but not a ton. But again, you just feel like you might actually make this happen. Now.

[Sean Ryan]

What'S it like for you? Like you'd un. You had not wavered in what you wanted this entire time. So, I mean, just describe your first time climbing into that aircraft.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I still remember it like it was Yesterday. Like, the A10 is huge for like a tactical aircraft. If you see one next to an F16. We used to joke that you could put the F16 on one of our hardpoints and it would like work as a missile. Like, it's just a massive airplane. It looks similar size, like a B17 from the World War II era. And yeah, you get there and you're just. It's almost surreal, you know. So you go through again, ground school simulator training and then you hit the flight line and there's no two seaters in this airplane. Like, they made a couple and they never went operational with them. So every A10 in the fleet is a single seat airplane. So you go through your simulator training and then next thing you know, you're out there on your first flight by yourself and you have an instructor and he's just kind of tucked in behind you the whole time. And he's there and he's talking on the radio and it feels similar to having him in your cockpit, but he can't take the jet from you if needed, so it's on you. But yeah, you just, you walk around this airplane, you see the Gal 8 Avenger. You know, you're looking at the seven barrels, looking at all the hardpoints, the titanium bathtub.

[Sean Ryan]

What do you mean by the hardpoints?

[Dale Stark]

Oh, sorry. The hardpoints underneath the wing and the fuselage that hold your conventional weapons.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So missiles, bombs, things of that nature.

[Sean Ryan]

Are those all attached for your first flight?

[Dale Stark]

So you don't. For your first flight, you might have some like, AIM nines. You just have to have like a symmetrical configuration.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So. But there's not much on it. They depend on what you're doing. There's, there's like a couple aim nines on it and then something to counterbalance it on the other side, if I recall correctly. But yeah, so you're like, this is actually like, is this. Someone pinch me. Am I going to wake up? And this whole thing was a dream because it's just such a whirlwind. But, yeah, it's. It's incredible. And then you climb up the ladder, you know, fired up, drop the canopy, and it's got this big bubble canopy, so you're just kind of looking over your shoulders, and you don't see a ton of the jet when you're sitting in the seat, because they want you to have really good visibility to execute the mission. So it's just. It's an incredible feeling. Like, the T38, you feel like you're in the jet. The A10, you feel like you're sitting kind of on top of it. You know, like the jet's just basically underneath and behind you is how it feels. And. Yeah. And then you again, do everything that you've been trained to do. Take the Runway, get cleared for takeoff, throttle comes forward, and off you go and, you know, get airborne, bring the gear and the flaps up and turn out into your working airspace, and you're just like, you know, maybe look over at your instructor who's now your wingman, and you're like, holy shit, I did this. I pulled it off. Like, if I die tomorrow. I was an A10 pilot. I remember thinking that. I'm like, no one can ever take this away from me.

[Sean Ryan]

How did it maneuver?

[Dale Stark]

It maneuvers great. So one of the key aspects of the aircraft and its design was making it highly maneuverable. So, you know, to execute the close air support mission, you need to have certain characteristics that enable you to do that effectively. So you need to be able to fly low altitude. You need to be. Have good stability at low airspeeds, because you need to be able to battle track of what's going on. And then you need to be highly maneuverable so you can survive. So it's just. It's a. After coming out of the T38, the A10 is just a pure dream to fly. It's got a big, straight, fat wing that creates a ton of lift. It's very forgiving. Like, you could teach any pilot to fly the A10.

[Sean Ryan]

No kidding.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. Just as far as, like, flying from A to B. It's just a joy. Yeah, it's great to fly.

[Sean Ryan]

So it was everything that you had hoped?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, yeah, you're in your early 20s. Especially, like, where I had come from. You're going, I'm just gonna. I kept genuinely asking myself if it was real. Like, it was almost unbelievable. And then it just. Yeah, I just ran with it.

[Sean Ryan]

And are you the only student there?

[Dale Stark]

No. So now, so there, there's five pilot training bases. And so now you're pooling then with like say one or two people from all those bases. And then they'll wait a while to start a class. There's fewer A10 classes than there are pilot training classes. So once they get like a dozen students, they'll start your class.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, good.

[Dale Stark]

So yeah, so now I'm with a new group of friends and we're all starting day one in the hog together. And go. And that's a six month program until you get done and go to your first fighter squadron.

[Sean Ryan]

Another six months.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So yeah, it was just, it was incredible. I mean. And it's again drinking through the fire hose. You're learning the basic maneuvers. The next thing you knew is you're doing air to air, then you're doing air to ground, then you're doing more complex air to ground, then you're doing everything at night. You know, it's just, it just quickly becomes where all of those skill sets you've acquired, they just have to be rote and muscle memory. And you don't have time to think about it because now you're employing this airplane as a weapon system, which is a whole nother ballgame.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow. Wow. So can you go through some of the weapons that are attached to the A10?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So the most popular and the most fun to employ is the 30 millimeter. So it's seven barrel Gatling gun. It's powered by electrical and hydraulics. So it's kind of like a throwback to Some, you know, 20th century weapon is what it feels like. It's freaking awesome. Carries 1174 rounds and it shoots 70 rounds a second.

[Sean Ryan]

70 rounds a second?

[Dale Stark]

Yes.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Dale Stark]

There's. You can carry.

[Sean Ryan]

What's the math on that? How many rounds? 11.

[Dale Stark]

1174.

[Sean Ryan]

1174, the way I think about it is 70 rounds a second. So what's that, like maybe 10 seconds?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. You don't necessarily employ it like that. You don't just empty the gun. You just, you get. They call it like a combat burst. So a couple.

[Sean Ryan]

How many comes out in a combat burst?

[Dale Stark]

As long as it takes you to say die, Call me die. And that's how we trained our students. Like you engage the. There's more that goes into it, but you roll in, acquire the target, line up your symbology so you have a continuously computed aim point. So it's the computer's looking at the Winds, your airspeed, your attitude, your altitude, the ground. And it's giving you a computerized sight that's going to tell you where those bullets impact. And then you have something called precision attitude control. So you squeeze the trigger halfway and the jet will lock in place to just drive a nail through that point on the ground.

[Sean Ryan]

Shit.

[Dale Stark]

So it's for like killing tanks or armor, anything like that. You need to get reduce, you know, increase bullet density, reduce that dispersion that allows you to do that. So yeah, you roll in, acquire the target, check your parameters, you know your dive angle, your airspeed, your altitude, things like that. Engage pack one, make any minor adjustments. Die commie, die. Release the trigger, see impact, pull off target, look over your shoulder, assess bda. It's just awesome.

[Sean Ryan]

Die commie, die. That's gotta be a second, right?

[Dale Stark]

No, I think it's more like three seconds.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, you say it's slow?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So that's like 210 rounds.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, there'd be a good burst depend on the target, you know.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit. What else?

[Dale Stark]

Well, last thing on the bullets is you have high explosive incendiary rounds which basically like little hand grenades that explode on impact. So anti personnel, things like that. And then we also can carry the armor piercing incendiary which are the depleted uranium rounds which can punch holes in armor. So load out just depending on the potential targets. So it's pretty, pretty badass weapon.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Amazing.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. Everyone loves the gun. So when the first day you shoot the gun, it's, it's like I love.

[Sean Ryan]

The sound of it.

[Dale Stark]

Oh yeah, yeah. And then the smell, it's probably terrible for you, but the cordite kind of fills the cockpit and you're just like.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, I'll bet, man. Yeah, that brings the memories back.

[Dale Stark]

Definitely. And then what makes the A10 or has made it so awesome at what it's done is its versatility. So you know, it's maneuverable, survivable in these types of cast fights. Like I believe wherever the army can operate, wherever Apaches can operate, the A10 can operate just like the AC130. Yeah, we're not going to go in against like triple digit SAMs, but if the infantry is moving, we can be there. So you have an assortment of weapons to help meet the ground commander's intent. So I Talked about the 11 hard points and you can pretty much carry any conventional weapon that are, that's in the inventory. So we carry AIM nines for defensive purposes. So air to air missiles usually typically depends on where again, but you have some sort of ecm so like an electronic jamming pod so you can help try to jam radars. And then you just have an assortment of like 500 pound class bombs. So like early in the GWAT, we dropped a lot of GBU12s laser guided bombs. Then GBU38s came online. So GPS guided bombs, 500 pound class again. And then on my last deployment we had GBU54s which are laser and GPS guided. So they continuously update with your what you're lasing. So they just, they just react faster. As far as like the GBU 38s, you like program the bomb, release it and then it'll hit that Target is where GBU54, you're continuously sending it updates even when the bomb is in flight. And then rockets, you know, Willie Pete's, they call them white phosphorus for marking targets. Just get a big white plume. Because as a A10 pilot you might need to do the forward air controller mission. So you need to get everyone else eyes on the target area. So you might put down a couple Willy Petes and everyone says yep, contact your smoke and you can talk them on from there. And then Maverick missiles are always fun. And now they're carrying small diameter bombs which have a massive bomb range. And we're basically like just a giant bomb truck for those. Can carry a ton of them. So yeah, like pretty much any conventional weapon in the inventory the A10 can carry.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So think about a 4 ship of that showing up in a, in a gunfight, you know. Yeah, it's, it's like, it's a lot of capability.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. So you go through six months of the school, you, you graduate and then what?

[Dale Stark]

So now I get assigned to my first fighter squadron. So I go up to Fairbanks, Alaska and that's. That was my first assignment. Yeah. So load up everything I own in a short cab F150, which is pretty awesome to think about. Like I could. Yeah. Like just like some clothing and that's about it. Put it in the back of my truck and off I go. And I arrive there and it's like a ghost town because everybody is in Afghanistan and there's one guy left and he had just gotten back from a deployment, his wife was eight months pregnant or whatever it was. His name's Gekko, great guy. And he's the only one there. So he's just kind of keeping the lights on in the squadron and there welcome me. So. And he's also an instructor. And when you arrive at your first squadron, you're not fully qualified yet. You have to do a local mission checkout before they finally sign you off and say you're good to go to flying combat. So they're already downrange, and I'm just dying to get down there and join them. And I talked to the commander, and he's like, no. Like, it's too late. Like, just get settled in and you'll get on. Get in on the next rotation. And at that time, I'm thinking, this thing's gonna be over, and I'm gonna miss out. You know, I'm gonna be the, like, one a 10 guy from this era that has zero combat experience. And so I. I'm pretty bummed about that. And I'm thinking about what I can do.

[Sean Ryan]

What year is this?

[Dale Stark]

This is early 2000. So early 2006. So I graduated in 2005. Get there in 2006. So I go through my local checkout with Gecko, and everything goes fine. And something happened downrange I still am not completely privy to, but there was. I don't. Again, I don't know exactly what happened, but I think somebody screwed something up and got sent home. And morale was low. They had been there a while, and it was just kind of a lull in the deployment. And I talked to my commander, and I had a proposal. And I was like, hey, if. If you let me come out, I will bring a giant cooler full of, like, frozen halibut, salmon, you know, whatever like, I can do to kind of bring some fresh energy to the squadron. We can have a big barbecue, and it'll be. It'll be awesome. And he thinks about it, and he's. He gets back to me. He's like, okay, let's do it. Like, get your butt out here. So I get this giant cooler, and I fill it up with, like, all the halibut and salmon I could find, pack it with dry ice, and off I go to Afghanistan. So my first flight in the A10 that was not on a grade sheet, meaning was not part of an official syllabus, was actually in theater, which was pretty cool. But anyhow, before we even get there, to get to Afghanistan as a single, they call it a singleton by yourself is kind of a chore because, you know, as a squadron goes, they have, you know, airlift, tanker, bring all the people. The pilots flying. The extra pilots just fly in the airlift, whatever it may be, and you all just arrive and get it spun up and start operating. But all that I did is I had orders to Bagram and. And I Had to figure out how to get there once I got in theater.

[Sean Ryan]

So where were you headed?

[Dale Stark]

I was headed to Bagram from Alaska. So I finally.

[Sean Ryan]

That's where you were going in theater?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. That was my final destination. So I get to, like. I think it was Manus. Is that right? So it was, like, one of the staging bases back in the day. And, like, everywhere I stop along this way, along this journey, I'm like, I go find the kitchen and refreeze this giant ass pain that I'm bringing with me now. Yeah. So. And I get stuck midway. Like, they just didn't have any airlift going in at that time. So I'm like, spending all my days at the terminal waiting to get there, and I finally make it to Bagram, and I show up, and I'm like, I'm exhausted. Like, I haven't slept. I haven't got a good night's sleep since I left. I'm like, pale, bloodshot eyes, like. And I just kind of, like, straggle in with my cooler, and I'm like, I made it. Like, I'm here. And the guy at the duty desk, a guy named Neo, he looks at me, he's like, oh, you're that new guy. He's like, hey, I got a job for you. We need you to go do a maintenance engine run. And I'm going like, well, I've never done that particular check in the A10. Like, what is it? And he's like, oh, it's easy. Like, you'll be fine. Just follow the checklist. And I'm like, I'm a former crew chief. I should be able to figure it out, right? And so I haven't even been at theater, like, an hour, and I just grab my helmet, and I walk out to the. To the airplane to go help him out, do this maintenance engine run. And some crew chief walks out of the crew chief shack, and he looks like he's, like, 12 years old. Okay? This guy is super young. And I. And I talked to him, and he's like, yeah, I've never done this particular check either. And he's like, but my NCO told me that I'd be fine if we just run the checklist. So that should have been my red flag to go in and tell him this is not a good idea. But we press on, of course. And so we're working our way through this checklist, which neither of us really understood. And there comes to this point in the checklist, when you test these engine governors, they have a system in the A10, where you can throw the fuel flow switches and get excess thrust for an emergency situation. And so what that does is it basically disables the engine temp governors so it increases the thrust by, like, 20%. Okay? So there's a whole bunch of things you're supposed to do, which I understand now before you run this, check to make sure you're in a safe position and nothing bad happens, which we did not do. So we were not. We shouldn't have actually been doing this, come to find out. So he says the next thing to do is push the throttles up to max, then engage the fuel flow switches. They'll snap back into normal range and then bring the throttles to idle. And I'm like, that's like an awful lot of thrust here on the ground, just in parking. So I have them read it to me again, and we talk about it, and I go, okay, I'm going to do it, and I'm just going to be really fast. Okay? So, like, because I know this is going to. This engine temperature is going to rise rapidly, and as long as I get it quickly, we should be fine. I mean, it's in the checklist, right? So, mind you, I haven't even met the commander in person. I had just walked into the squadron, and here I am doing this check that I had never had previously. So I get ready to go. I push the throttles all the way to max. I'm trying to be slow and deliberate about it. And the engine temps just spike faster than I had ever seen because I had never pushed the throttles up with that setting. And the jet jumps, the chocks slides forward, and the crew chief has to, like, run and dive out of the way. And I almost, like, I almost killed him.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Dale Stark]

And I had been, like I said, I'd been in theater, like, not at all. And so now I have to. I have to call up to ground control and request taxi back, all the way back to parking. And I don't even have a call sign because I wasn't even planning on flying. So I've been in theater again. I just got there, and I'm making a complete ass of myself. And I'm going. I'm thinking to myself, okay. Like, he's okay. I didn't hit the aircraft in front of me. And I'm getting sent home. Like, that's what's going through my mind. I'm getting sent home on day one of this deployment.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Dale Stark]

So anyhow, I request taxi back. I don't Have a call sign. So I'm like, what's the tail number? I'm like, aircraft 069, request taxi back to parking. And they're like, aircraft 069, where are you at? I'm like, just forward of my parking spot. Like, everybody's confused. They're like, okay, go ahead. So I. I whip around, park, and walk back into the squadron and go back to the duty desk. I'm like, where's the commander? I need to talk to him right now. Like that. Thankfully, the commander is, like, one of the greatest leaders, like, I ever had the pleasure to work for in my career. But I explained to him what happened, and he's just like. Like, what are you talking about? And we go out to the flight line, and there's this giant, like, tire streaks on the ramps. And then he's like. He, like, thinks about it, and he's like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. He's like, you're gonna brief the squadron on what happened. Like, what went wrong, why went wrong, and how to avoid that in the future. So I did that. And then Q Tip's like, okay, you can fly in theater, but you're flying with me. Because I'm not too sure about this guy.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So anyhow, so I bring that up because everyone. And you know, every fighter pilot has a call sign, right? So in the movies, a call sign. Something cool. Right. In real life, it's something embarrassing. It's something you screwed up. And it's something to make fun of you. Cause that's more fun. So I got the call sign Pork Chop. Because I porked up a chop check. Cause that's what they called that particular check. Cause you chop the throttles back. So then for the rest of my next 20 years, the rest of my career, I was known as Pork Chop for that story.

[Sean Ryan]

So did you mess it up, or was that. Was it a. Did they mess up the checklist?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, like, there was a variety. Like most mishaps, thankfully, it wasn't. Didn't become a mishap. But it's like error on top of air on top of error. And that particular checklist was meant to be run one engine at a time while you're on the Runway preparing for takeoff as a functional check pilot. As a maintenance pilot, I went on later to do in my career. So I got a full scope of what you're supposed to do.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha.

[Dale Stark]

But young, dumb me, of course, just thought we could figure it out. So anyhow, lesson there is, if you are asked to do something that you don't really understand, especially if it involves giant airplanes and fuel and weapons, just don't do it. Shit, you'd be better off saying no.

[Sean Ryan]

Welcome to Afghanistan.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I legit thought I was getting sent home on day one, because if you screw something up in theater, that's the M.O. they send you home.

[Sean Ryan]

Yep, Yep. Wow. So did you fly that trip?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, so I went on to fly. I flew with some amazing pilots. A lot of these guys had experience in the Gulf War, and I was a wingman at this point. So your role as the wingman is to support your flight lead, and he's closely monitoring you, especially as an experienced flight lead. So, yeah, that deployment was cool. I caught in the tail end of it and flew on the wing of some of the best pilots in the Air Force and got to learn directly from them how to get the job done.

[Sean Ryan]

Any combat.

[Dale Stark]

I never shot the gun on that deployment. So wingman, his primary role is vis calm and lastly, firepower. So as my flight lead would employ, I would be in a position to monitor the situation. There's areas where you can't see underneath your aircraft, so you develop tactics to where when he exposes himself, so to speak, you are in position to monitor those threat areas and then call out anyone shooting at him. So I was able to just again, be in position to monitor and observe and learn, really, is what I was doing.

[Sean Ryan]

Who were you working with the most.

[Dale Stark]

Like, on the ground? You know, it was. It was in 06. It was a variety of places. I would say for the most part, we were working up near the border over, like, we called it Nixon's nose on the map. But I'm trying to blank on the region, but just up by the Pakistan border where all the foreign fighters were starting to flow in coast, yeah, definitely up in there. And it was much less of. I got to see it as a part of kind of getting oriented in the airspace, but we weren't going to, like, southern Afghanistan nearly that much in that deployment.

[Sean Ryan]

Did the flight league get any combat?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, yeah, I got to. I got to support some shooters.

[Sean Ryan]

What units were you working with the most?

[Dale Stark]

I'm not sure. Are you talking about, like, the ground units? Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

You're working with seals, Green Berets.

[Dale Stark]

So you. The way that. On that deployment, I worked with conventional forces mainly, and so the way that it worked was, is like an inexperienced guy. You're most likely going to fly for me in the day, and you're going to just support. They call it like, x Cast. A lot of times it would be just go look for, like, you know, scan routes, whatever it may be.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, okay.

[Dale Stark]

Look for, like, mortar emplacements.

[Sean Ryan]

So you're kind of picking fights? Yeah, not really a fight, but you're taking people out. You're basically like reconnaissance.

[Dale Stark]

You're waiting. You're just airborne to wait to respond to a. Troops in contact. Okay, so like that. And that deployment was the first time that I get the call. You know, like, you hear the mic key on the radio, you hear the kind of scared voice, you hear the gunfire, and then you realize, like, oh, damn. Like, this is what we're trained to do, you know, so it was a lot of conventional forces. Again, I didn't fly at night on that deployment, but just like, hey, this convoy's being engaged from this hillside or whatever, and they're stuck here or whatever, and they're shooting it out and go try to find and fix and target that enemy position. So a lot of stuff like that.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, let's talk about. I mean, what did it feel like for you being on your first real world mission operation again?

[Dale Stark]

It's just another thing. Thing of, like, this is. I can't believe this is happening. You know, you're like seeing Robert's Ridge. You know, you're seeing Tora Bora. You're seeing all these places, you know, so now we're, you know, several years after 9, 11. And then you're seeing it with your own eyes, man. You know, and you're, you know, you're doing what you've been trained to do, which is support the guys on the ground. So it felt really good to, you know, you could help them break contact just by your presence. So they're in a gunfight, they may even be taking casualties, and you show up and they break contact because you're there and they're able to get them out, you know, or you're able to provide cover for cazavac or whatever needs to be done. So, you know, and you just start realizing the reality of the situation, too. You see the losses, having the ramp ceremonies, you know, the base getting targeted with indirect fire, and you're just like, wow, like this is actually happening. This is not just something that been training for. We're actually doing it. And I actually, I love being deployed because, you know, no paperwork, no grade sheets. The briefs were very truncated. You know, they kept them short and sweet all about what you were going to do that day, and it was just all about flying.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you guys up there every day as A pilot.

[Dale Stark]

So no, you're not up there every day, maybe every other day. And it just really depends on your role in the squadron. So like every pilot has an extra duty. So like as a new wingman, I'm working in the mission planning cell. So I'm building all the products for when I'm not flying. I'm building all the products for people who are flying so they can wake up, show up. You've got their dtc, which is just like a cartridge with all their different points of interest. You can upload that information into your system. So you're getting all, everything ready for their mission. You're getting their mission data cards ready, their fuel plan and just everything all dialed in. So when the pilots show up, they just hand them all their stuff. So all they have to do is kind of look it over, talk to their wingman about what they're doing that day and then go fly.

[Sean Ryan]

Is there different, how do I say this? Are there A10 pilots that are attached to conventional units and A10 pilots that are attached to SOCOM and A10, A10 pilots attached to JSOC and like for the.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, not. And it changed throughout as the war went on. So on that first deployment there were like the most experienced pilots, kind of like our weapons officers and some of their hand selected guys that were also like instructors or four ship flight leads, like very experienced and they flew like all the night missions. Gotcha. Like you know, all the pre planned supports for the raids and things like that.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, okay, yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And then, and then everybody else just flew the line. Meaning.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay, so one's kind of like. Would I be correct if I said one is kind of like a loitering, like a, like there's conventional units out and you're just loitering, waiting for something. Waiting for a need.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, exactly. You're trying to be proactive and you've got to find those threats, but you're essentially there to respond to anyone who takes contact in theater.

[Sean Ryan]

And then for the other guys, then they would like they're in this, in the, they're in the like a SEAL task units briefing.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, so that's how it was early in the war. So. And then they would basically brief up like the entire op, you know, and be a part of it. And there would be like specific guys assigned to that role that were like I said, very experienced. But then like when I was there in 2014, there was, it had changed quite a bit. And it was like, hey, if you're combat ready and you're on the, you know, your mission overlaps with your, with this mission, you're flying that. So it was a kind of a different. Everyone was prepared for it because by that time the squadrons had evolved kind of meet the needs downrange.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha.

[Dale Stark]

So then if you're a fully qualified combat ready wingman, you need to be ready for that mission. So it would be. Whoever was scheduled at that time would be a part of that mission.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay, interesting, interesting. So you took. So what happened after that deployment?

[Dale Stark]

So go back to Islam Air Force Base in Fairbanks and just go back to like life of a normal A10 pilot, which is just training essentially. So going to Flags and Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas. Lots of, lots of travel and just some of the best flying I ever had in my life. I mean like the airspace in Alaska is just unbelievable. You're, you know, I, it was, it was really, really pretty wild because now I've got, you know, some more experience under my belt. I'm flying without that immediate oversight. I get my Ford air controller qualification quickly after that deployment. So I mean it was incredible. So Ford air controller is. It's another qualification for an A10 pilot. So what that mission is is. Are you familiar with like a jtac? Yeah, like, or TAC P or whatever.

[Sean Ryan]

So you guys go through a JTAC course?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So you become qualified to give clearance to release ordinance from the air.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So. And this goes way back. You know, they really developed this during Vietnam with like the OV10s and then the F100. Fast facts. But so yeah, you're, you're going out there, checking in with the guys on the ground, getting everything sorted, finding the targets, building the nine lines, then bringing in support fighters. And you're flying this single ship a lot of the times, maybe a wingman and then getting their eyes on and flowing them in, getting them to destroy the targets and then flow out and so you can just orchestrate this giant symphony of destruction.

[Sean Ryan]

Would you real quick? Because there's going to be a lot of people in the audience that don't know what a JTAC or attack P is. Could you describe that?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So they're like Air Force guys who are embedded with army units and they are the air experts. So what they do is they kind of provide that common language between the guys on the ground and the guys in the air. And so they're supposed to be competent in both worlds so they can get your eyes on target and give you clearance to release ordinance in the ground commander's battle space. So does that make sense?

[Sean Ryan]

Makes perfect sense. It's a for the. Yeah, it's a. Or like with us in a SEAL team, it would be a SEAL that's a communicator just trained to talk to you guys, you know, And I, I guess they know I didn't go to J Tack or Tac P or anything.

[Dale Stark]

But I employed for a SEAL JTAC once and like I, I was like blown away by those guys. This is a.

[Sean Ryan]

In a good way or a bad way?

[Dale Stark]

No, it was good. Like the guy, what stood out to me is they were in this like running gunfight and he sent me a perfect nine line. Like he was like shooting with one hand and talking on the radio and running and sent me a nine line.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. Could you see it happening?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I was watching him, man.

[Sean Ryan]

That's crazy.

[Dale Stark]

This guy is a badass.

[Sean Ryan]

What was that op?

[Dale Stark]

I don't remember. So a lot of our engagements there, it's so different than when you hear them tell the stories of the ground ops where it's like, it's like build up and then execution and then this or that goes wrong and then they make it back and then the debrief or whatever it is. A lot of ours is just, we're out there flying X casts and there's multiple. Oh, sorry, like alert for close air support. Meaning you're just, you don't have any specific tasking.

[Sean Ryan]

You're loitering, you're loitering.

[Dale Stark]

You're waiting for something to happen and then you get the call and you just go to it. So I might not know the full depth of the operation.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha.

[Dale Stark]

I just know that this team is in a running gunfight and they want some 30 millimeter on that enemy, like PKM position, you know, so that's what a lot of our engagements looked like.

[Sean Ryan]

Interesting. Very interesting. Man, I'm sorry. I lost where we're. We're back home. Fairbanks.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So it was just one of the best times of my life. So I'm like, I'm just flying my ass off. I think I look at my logbook. I have some months where I was getting like 21 sorties in a month, which is flying almost every day.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

So I'm just, I'm just flying my ass off. I'm getting much better at, you know, the job of being an A10 pilot. Great friends. Just like seeing the most amazing sights, like flying in the Alaska range. I mean, that's got to be incredible. It's so cool. We had this giant map of the entire state of Alaska. And if you ever saw like a herd of like caribou, you know, you go plot it on the map and put the date. So we just had like, just had the entire state like dialed in. You know, you're like, man, that's cool. It was awesome. You know, there's like, they always say there's nothing like your first fighter squadron. There's you'll there. It's something about being brand new in that first exposure to this new world. And it lived up to everything I had hoped for.

[Sean Ryan]

Where do you go from here?

[Dale Stark]

So from there I went to Korea.

[Sean Ryan]

Korea?

[Dale Stark]

Korea? Yep.

[Sean Ryan]

Why did you go to Korea?

[Dale Stark]

There's a permanent base of permanently assigned squadron of A10s at Osan Air Base. So it's just a one year tour and it's just normal part of an A10 pilot progression. You know, just go bang out a year at Korea.

[Sean Ryan]

And from there and then.

[Dale Stark]

From Korea?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

Oh, well, there's something noteworthy in Korea.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, is there?

[Dale Stark]

Well, a little bit. I mean, so Korea's like.

[Sean Ryan]

Sorry, I meant you made it kind of sound like just fly through Korea. Yeah. Like some type of career development just to check.

[Dale Stark]

No, I was flying out there.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, no worries. It's just there's like five active duty A10 squadrons. At the time, one of them was Korea.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

So if you want to stay in the jet, you got to volunteer for Korea. So like, people enjoy it, but it's not like a choice assignment. So you finish up a normal, you know, like Alaska, something stateside, go do a year of Korea and then come back to the community something else. But anyhow, so I do a year out at Osan and I'm again, I'm now like a first lieutenant and I'm flying like flying like crazy. And this is when I first started having like back and neck issues from a lot of. From wrestling and training hard and skateboarding and all that stuff. It's. It's like I always had like, issues even before I joined the military.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And then it's just like all these sorties with all these gear. I'm starting to like have these symptoms that I'm trying to deal with before.

[Sean Ryan]

You can you just get in. Cause that's something I'd never thought of when we were talking to breakfast this morning. Is the like the physical stuff that you guys deal with inside that cockpit. I mean, I had no idea.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So, you know, the human body is very resilient and it Adapts to a lot of different stressors. But you know, we're basically built to like run, jump, lift, hinge, press. There's all these movements that the human body is designed to do. Something it's not designed to do is just be smushed over and over again, you know, year after year. So most every fighter pilot ends up with some, you know, back and neck issues if they've been in the jet for a period of time. So I had some neck and back issues before I joined even. They were nothing to speak of, but it would just be like, oh, I threw my back out and missed a tournament or whatever it may be. But now, you know, you're wearing the helmet. Later you're wearing the helmet mounted cueing system which has these electronics and a monocle over your eye so you can see things on the datalink when you look over the rail and down on the ground. But all this adds weight to the helmet. You know, you have a visor at night, you have the night vision goggles and all the brackets and stuff that go for those attachments. So you're adding a lot of weight to your nugget, you know. And then now the demands of flying is you're constantly under G. So you're, you know, say you're, I don't know what it, what it weighs, but say your 10 pound helmet under seven GS now weighs 70 pounds.

[Sean Ryan]

Shit, yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And if you're flying 20 sorties a month and you've already have back and neck issues and now you're pulling, you know, hard on the aircraft, off target, over and over again, you're looking behind you so you're twisted and then you're being compressed. It just, it's going to bring out any issues there. So the short of my career assignment is I'm trucking along, flying nonstop there, there's exercises and I'm having a great time, but I'm starting to get like numbness in my hands, starting to kind of lock up. And like the number one rule of fighter pilots is you never talk to a flight doctor, you know, because you don't want to lose your flight status. So I'm anyhow, so that assignment, I'm like halfway through and one morning I'm getting ready to fly. I go to time my boot and I'm literally just stuck in position. I'm like, I, I'm completely locked up. I can't move and I'm like, I can't, I can't fly today. So pull myself off the schedule. Talked to the commander and he's like, he's like, Ben, you're gonna have to get this checked out. So go to a flight doc, get a scan. And they're like, oh yeah, you've got like terrible degenerative discs and you've got all these issues. And I think at that time he said something about if I eject it's going to cause all these problems. So that basically right there was grounded from flying the hog about halfway through that assignment. So now I'm sitting there going, okay, I, you know, was doing exactly what I wanted to do and now I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to fly an ejection seat aircraft again.

[Sean Ryan]

So that had to be pretty devastating.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, talk about going from a high to a low, you know, and you're like, what's, what am I going to go be like a logistics officer? I still have a 10 year pilot training commitment. And I'm like, I don't know, four years into it or whatever it was. And so yeah, I just went from where I felt like the ultimate high being on just, you know, you start to build up your. So many things came down to luck and timing. But up to that point everything had worked out exactly as I had hoped. So you just start to think that that's how the world is just going to bend to your favor on everything. And then all of a sudden it's just, all, it's all gone, you know. So then I had a choice as to. They're like, this is not going to be a short term thing. So you're not permanently disqualified, but you're disqualified for now from flying fighter aircraft, basically anything with an ejection seat. So they're like, you got to figure out what you want to do. And at that time they needed people to go fly like small ISR aircraft for afsoc. So Air Force Special Operations Command, but I was told if you do that you will never come back to the A10 because it's a different major command and it's a one way street. They're not going to go to AFSOC and then come back to Air Combat Command. It just doesn't work that way. And so alternatively they said you can take this assignment to Vegas flying the MQ9 doing the unmanned stuff. So is that the Predator? The Reaper. So the follow on to the Predator. So that's what I chose to do. So finished up my year in Korea.

[Sean Ryan]

So that's not AFSOC or that they have.

[Dale Stark]

I'll just, I'll Leave it at. There are multiple, you know, magcoms that fly these airplanes. And so I flew air Combat Command MQ9s, essentially doing the same mission I was doing in the A10. But instead of.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you know who you were flying for?

[Dale Stark]

I was. I mean, we could get into it. I was flying for pretty much anything that was going on in Afghanistan for four years.

[Sean Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Dale Stark]

Six days a week, 12 to 14 hours a day. No, no, I didn't. I was flying for. I was doing Air Force missions, so.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, good.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So does the agency have their own. Do you not want to talk about this?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I don't.

[Sean Ryan]

I watched a lot of kill TV at the agency. I wonder if you were in the control room.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Maybe. Maybe not, huh? Roger that.

[Dale Stark]

So, yeah, I. It was just. It's funny, I described this like. They're like. What was it like to go from the A10 to the MQ9? And I was like, well, like, one, it was devastating. And two was. What I realized was it was a lot. It was very similar. Just strip away everything that I liked about flying and being an Air Force officer and pilot. So you don't get to fly. You don't get to shoot the gun. You don't get to smell the gun gas in the cockpit. All your former friends treat you like you have some communicable disease because they don't want to catch whatever you had for whatever, you know, fate or however you ended up, you know, here flying these unmanned aircraft. Because at that time, they were severely undermanned, and they were just randomly grabbing people from all over the Air Force and sending them there. So, yeah, it was just like. It was pretty. It was like. At first, it was very devastating, miserable. And then I kind of.

[Sean Ryan]

So is it. Is it that the adrenaline's gone?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Is that what it is?

[Dale Stark]

And it. You, like, when you are flying the A10, like, just stepping out the aircraft, out to the aircraft, like, you've got the helmet bag over your shoulder. You see the jets. The sun's beating on your skin, like. And then you're in the airplane, the canopy's up. You're just looking around as you taxi out and get ready to fly. Like, you just feel like a badass.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

You feel like King Kong, and you're just in theater. You're hoping there's a gunfight so you can show up and just wreck shop, Right? Like, that's the mentality. And then you go from that to. It's like the opposite species now. You're like, this Cave dweller that lives underground. You know, it's like dark and you're staring at computer screens and there's nothing cool about it. There's nothing fun, there's nothing glorious or glamorous like is just work, you know, it just stripped away everything that I enjoyed about flying. And you still have the tasks, but that's it.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

But you know, I quickly realized like, so in the 18 community we talk about it's all about the guy on the ground. It's all about the guy on the ground. Like it's not about you, it's about the guy on the ground. And I realized that this was an opportunity to prove to myself that I actually believed in that. Because at that point, it's not about you at all. But I was like, I still have this tool and I'm still in the same stack. I was talking to my buddies on the radio, I was hearing some of the, all the same call signs from when I was in theater. And just now I'm controlling this aircraft remotely from Vegas, you know. So yeah, and then you, you learn a lot about insurgency because, you know, as an A10 guy, say you go deploy. Deployment started at four months and they went up to six months. So you do one of those every three years. You're probably going to have an instructor duty, staff duty, something like that. So you might do a couple of those throughout your career. Well, now I'm in theater six days a week in my brain, 12 hours a day for four years. You know what I mean? So you get really good at actually carrying out that mission of protecting the guys on the ground.

[Sean Ryan]

Man, that's interesting because not to inject myself here, but I wanted to have this discussion with you because when I was in the, I left the SEAL teams in 2006, I did one enlistment, very short pump. But RJ TACs were always. Because that was right around the time where drones were coming online more and more, at least from my perspective. But there was always a lot of discussion about having a 10s, Apaches. And our guys would go meet the Apaches and meet you guys before an operation and get that face to face kind of personal relationship building. And then as the war went on and more and more drones came online, it was, there was always a big fear like we don't have, we don't have that personal relationship where it's where we just met Dale, you know, and he knows like, oh fuck. That's Sean and his team on the ground down there that are getting the shit knocked out of him, you know, and, and when it came to drones, it was, we lost the personal touch, you know, And I mean, what did you, what were your feelings like as a pilot about that?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it was really a mixed bag at the time because it became like, we called it the land of the broken toys. So, you know, you might, as your SHIELD team, you might get a guy who was six months ago, an A10, Ford Air Controller that can speak your language, can control the stack, is going to make this very easy for you. In fact, I might even build you the nine line you can read back to me, you know what I mean? But on the flip side, you might get a guy who has been flying the AWACS for 10 years, who never upgraded to aircraft commander because they weren't quite sure of his capabilities, they didn't know what to do with him. So they're like, hey, let's send them to, let's send him to this unmanned community. And they just needed so many people. I mean they were sending, they would just send out a requirement to fighter squadrons and just say, you will send us three pilots on this next VML or even right now because it was such a high demand asset. So everybody was just throwing bodies at this program. And yeah, so the product at that time especially was just varied widely. And so what I felt like my responsibility was to do everything in my power to ensure that myself and everybody around me so my squadron was as capable as possible and we didn't lose track, you know, try to kind of instill that same mindset of like, hey, this isn't about us. Like if you find that IED emplacer before the convoy gets there, that's everyone in that MRAP going home to their family instead of just ending up, you know, in a pile of frag on the side of the road. So just trying to get that mindset to people that never really wanted to be.

[Sean Ryan]

It's gotta be.

[Dale Stark]

It was very tough.

[Sean Ryan]

I mean, even for you, it's gotta be tough to realize the, I don't know, the complexity of the situation. Being able to visualize it out of your cockpit and see what's happening on the ground versus, I mean, it sounds.

[Dale Stark]

Like you're looking through the soda straw.

[Sean Ryan]

Sounds like Call of Duty at the unmanned. I mean, it's gotta be hard to visualize and have a personal connection and realize like those are fucking lives down there, those little, I mean, white figures that are moving around, those are, those are our people. And I mean, is it, is it, is it, It's Gotta be weird, right?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I mean, it would. There's so many weird aspects to it of modern war, you know, like being engaged in a firefight. You know, your brain is there, your body is in a freaking shipping container in the desert, you're done. And then 15 minutes later, you're home with your wife.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you, do you, do you realize that the stakes are as high as they are when you're flying an unmanned?

[Dale Stark]

I never forgot that. And I. And we'll talk about getting back to the A10, which when I left the A10, they said, you'll have a chance of getting back. This is because every A10 pilot has to do a career broadening assignment. And they're like, this is your. They call it Alpha tour. They're like, this is your Alpha tour and you are welcome back to the community. So we're not ejecting you from the community, which can happen, you know. But then when I got there, the commander's like, hey, guys, like, I know they didn't lie, but the truth changed is what we were told. I remember that line specifically. They said, now you're one of us. Like, get comfortable here. This is your new major weapon system. So, Porkchop, you are not a 10 pilot. You're now an MQ9 pilot. And that's just a fact. So, you know, you can cry about it, but get over it. And we got a job to do. So they, they told us we would not go back. This is a new. They're not treating it like extra duty. This is a new platform and it will need, like, permanent party. And that's, that's what they told us when we got there. So now I'm sitting there going, okay, like I'm, I'm done, you know, like, I'm never getting back to the hog. And I'm looking at my commitment going, okay, I've got like five years left or whatever it was, and going, okay, I'm just going to finish out and separate at the end of that time. But yeah, it was kind of devastating in that regard. But when it came to executing the mission, I just felt like I needed to throw myself into this job because there are like countless Americans in harm's way, and if we do our job well, if I train the people around me so they like, almost immediately make me like an instructor pilot, an evaluator pilot, a flight commander. So they're like, we need leadership here. We need some supervision, and anyone with any tactical background can, needs to step up and fill that role.

[Sean Ryan]

So, damn, that's a big responsibility.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So now you're like a young captain and you're just. I mean, there are a lot of weapons getting sent down range by people who are not fighter pilots, who are not training to do this. In making that top cut every step of the way, it's just everybody and they might not even want to be there. But you know what, like I said, there's still Americans in harm's way. And this is not the tool I'd prefer to be doing the job in. I'd rather be in my hog. But this is what they've given me. And if this is, you know, this is what I have, I'm going to use it to the best of my ability. And I did that. You know, I went there and I. Basically all I did at that assignment was just work and sleep. We were severely undermanned on the leadership side. And I just flew or sat operations supervisor for nearly four years straight, six days a week.

[Sean Ryan]

So was this. Was flying an unmanned aircraft your first engagement with an enemy combatant?

[Dale Stark]

Yep.

[Sean Ryan]

What I mean, can you describe your first engagement? First kill.

[Dale Stark]

So we got rolled to a tick. So like I was saying, it looked very similar to the missions that we were doing downrange in the A10. It was just another capability, you know what I mean? Like, it was just another option. So there's only the A10s could only go so far. And so I'm Air Force flying Air Force missions. You're just another asset that's available. So I'm doing similar things. We're like root scanning this and that. We get rolled to a tick.

[Sean Ryan]

A tick is a. Troops in contact.

[Dale Stark]

Sorry, troops in contact. So we get there's a gunfight and we were the closest asset and they send us over there and they give us General, you know, do all the things you do in the hog. It's just now you're remotely connected, but you're still on the radio and now you're looking through a soda straw of the targeting pod instead of looking over the rail and having a targeting pod. So just a different asset altogether. But really at the end of the day, you're servicing targets for Americans. So that's what we did. So we get rolled two troops in contact. There was like a machine gun position where they were getting shot from and they give us general coordinates of where it's coming from and we start scanning.

[Sean Ryan]

Who's we?

[Dale Stark]

So this is now a two person aircraft. Okay. So you have a sensor operator that sits next to you. So in the A10 I'm my own sensor operator, right? I control the targeting podcast now. I fly the airplane, I control the weapon systems, and the sensor operator controls the sensor or the targeting pod, if you will. So we, you know, so now instead of. And it's insanely frustrating because I would rather do it myself. And you're going, okay, look here, look there, look there. And you know, and the more experience they get, there's. Some of them were awesome and they would do what you wanted to do before you could even say it out loud. But yeah, so they just, you get to that general area, you start searching and then next thing you know, you find, you know, a couple guys. There was one pkm, I still remember the image. There's two guys and they're they're just like shooting at the friendlies, you know, they're laying in a prone position. So we get a nine line select GBU12 and roll in and put a GB12 right on the target.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn. What's a GB12?

[Dale Stark]

500 pound laser. Got a bomb.

[Sean Ryan]

Did you get any satisfaction out of that?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I mean, I got, it's like, it's mixed feelings. It's like I got satisfaction knowing that our guys made it home, like, so I didn't have any kind of moral qualms with it. I would much rather physically be there because it feels kind of like there is a part of you. Like killing at a distance has been, it's been a feature of warfare since the beginning of time, since someone figured out you could throw a rock at somebody, right? Then spears, then, you know, archers, you know, automatic weapons, all the way to, you know, aircraft and then drones. So it's just, it's just an advancement in warfare. But yeah, you feel kind of like a coward, like taking life sitting thousands of miles away.

[Sean Ryan]

But I never thought about that.

[Dale Stark]

I didn't, I didn't at the time. And how I kind of framed it to my people and to myself was, hey, we've got a choice to make. This is not morally ambiguous because these guys are fighting each other and they're actively engaged against Americans. And it's them or it's our guys. So that's an easy choice for me. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure those Americans come home safe. So again, I try to frame it like it's not about us, it's about the guys on the ground. And, you know, in doing so, we became very effective. Like, I look back on that four years and it was probably the most important four years of my entire Career. Because the number of threats that we neutralized was just. It's uncountable. I mean, things that people never even knew about.

[Sean Ryan]

Like, you've killed that many people?

[Dale Stark]

I'm saying just the whole squadron, you know, but I wouldn't even begin to count.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

But you're just. I mean, four years straight? Six days a week? Ten.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you killing like, every day?

[Dale Stark]

No. You might go months or months without nothing. You know, there's fighting season. There's. It might be quiet for a long period of time, but it ebbs and flows, you know, with like, who's the commander? Like, remember the surge in, like, 2000? Was it when Patraeus took over for McChrystal, they brought in all the Marines into South Afghanistan.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

Like, it was just non stop then, you know, but then it quieted down again after that.

[Sean Ryan]

Were you flying then?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, every day.

[Sean Ryan]

You may have.

[Dale Stark]

I'm sure there's tons of overlap.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. We got overrun in a safe house in Lash Karga, and there was like. I can't remember, like, a hundred Taliban fighters on the other side of the river. Does that bring any bells at all?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, right on.

[Sean Ryan]

It was.

[Dale Stark]

It was gnarly. Like, if you. I mean, if you.

[Sean Ryan]

Man, that's crazy, man.

[Dale Stark]

It's a small world.

[Sean Ryan]

Does that. I mean, can you talk about some more of these missions? Let's talk about maybe anything that sticks out.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. I mean, you see some dark shit, you know, like one. Actually, we'll talk about a mission supporting Marines in southern Afghanistan during the surge. You know, I'm flying the MQ9. We get rolled two troops in contact. And this is, you know, it's kind of rural down there, but there's a lot of development, you know, And I find the enemy shooting the Marines. And again, they've got an automatic weapon and they're just at the side. There's eight guys and they're just at the side of this. It's like this compound, you know, all those little. Everyone has a house and then this big mud fence around it. So they're on the outside of this big mud fence and they're just kind of like. They'd have like one guy leaning around the corner just wailing at the Marines. So I see that. And they're taking pretty effective fire. Like, we need to serve as his target now. So get a nine line, decide to put a Hellfire missile on it and swing around so it's like parallel to this wall. Put the Hellfire right down at the very first point on that Wall where the first person was. And then all of the frag of that missile kind of bounces off the wall, does this, like, vortex and just fires down the wall. Dust settles. And is this daytime mission we switch over to, like, the daytime camera, and it's just like the guns go quiet. So it was just them shooting at the Marines, and it's just like a freaking pile of body parts. Okay. And that's, you know, if you've seen war, it's like, it's not something completely. Completely uncommon. But afterwards, it's kind of quiet, you know? And then I see this figure come out of the adjacent building. And it looks like an old lady. She has, like, a walking stick, and she's. You can kind of see her hunched over. And she leaves the house, leaves a compound, and she's just moving all the parts around. And I'm thinking she's probably looking to see if there's anyone alive. That was my best guess, seeing what was going on. And nothing happened to her. The marines eventually sent a team out to go do battle damage assessment, and she went back in. But you just see the actual real impact of war on these people's lives. Yeah, you know, it's like, I don't know. We can get into it, but you're going. You're looking at the. Just the morality of us being there in the first place. Now, this many years after 9 11, you're like, most of these fighters, would they even know anything about 9 11, or are they just fighting the people that are in their country? You know, I'm starting to ask myself some of these questions, and this. These, you know, this woman, these civilians, they're just caught in the crossfire, you know, so just something to think about, you know, before we get engaged in these conflicts overseas.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

It's like, what does this actually look like on the ground? Cause it's not a video game. It's not a movie. In the real world, it's much uglier, much more gray area.

[Sean Ryan]

You were thinking that at the time, or is this later?

[Dale Stark]

I remember being kind of. Some of the things I saw just kind of screwing with my mind a little bit. But it took a lot of time to reflect on it.

[Sean Ryan]

Man, that's interesting, because I've always. I've heard that, and please don't judge me, you know, but. Because I'm a ground guy and I don't fucking know, but I've heard about drone pilots talking about PTSD and the impacts of war and stuff, and I never. I mean, I'm not gonna. I never said anything negative about it, but I did always wonder, like, how can that even be? Like it's so far away. You're half a world away. And does it even. That's why I'm asking. Does it even feel real? There's no personal connection.

[Dale Stark]

It feels very real because your mind is there. In my experience, again, I would never discount anybody's claims.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

Of ptsd, but in my experience, it wasn't the guys that were doing most of the engagements that were having those issues.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha. I'm not, I'm not discounting. I don't want to say that it was, it was more curiosity.

[Dale Stark]

There was. There was a lot of things that happened. And you're going. It was like, pretty quick ticket out of there anyway. Like, I'll just leave it.

[Sean Ryan]

What do you mean?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So if you, if you didn't want to do that job, whether you're an intel troop or you just weren't liking the schedule, the lifestyle was pretty miserable because we were severely under manned.

[Sean Ryan]

I see what you're.

[Dale Stark]

And it was just kind of like, again, I would never point the finger at any individual, but it was well known within the community that people would have a escape route, if you will.

[Sean Ryan]

Gotcha. It's a ticket out.

[Dale Stark]

It's a ticket out. Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Is this a ticket out back to the old unit, or is it just a ticket out?

[Dale Stark]

Just ticket out. Just. Yeah. You could be. People would just, you know, I'm looking at my five year service commitment left and. And they're like, well, I'm done, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. Man. This is. I gotta be honest with her. This is just as interesting to me as the. As the A10 stuff.

[Dale Stark]

I thought it might be because it's. You see a lot of it on the news, you hear a lot about it, but most everything I heard about on the news, I just, I feel like it's. It's a lot of things that are false.

[Sean Ryan]

Like what, you don't believe the news?

[Dale Stark]

Like, I mean, I can't speak to every unmanned engagement that ever existed, but there's this kind of like this theme of like, oh, they just use unmanned assets to target like civilian weddings and shit like that. You know what I mean? Like, and it's like, I never saw anything like that. I mean, it was an Air Force unit supporting the guys on the ground. That's what we did, you know, like we engaged combatants that were engaging our guys.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

So, like, I can't speak to whatever else ever happened, you know, in the history of these unmanned assets, but it was very clear in our unit who we were supporting.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wonder. I mean, like, the USAID worker that got killed during the withdrawal that the Biden administration told us was within this. ISIS fighters. Do you remember this?

[Dale Stark]

Yes.

[Sean Ryan]

And there was. That was a drone strike, correct?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. And it hit that family, right?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's like another lie from the media.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, that's. That's all they do is lie, right?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. And the White House.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, whatever. Whatever fits the narrative.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

At the time is usually what they say.

[Sean Ryan]

Do you think we should have. Well, do you think we should have been there in Afghanistan or Iran?

[Dale Stark]

I think we had. I. I think Iraq. No, I think there's so many. You look at Iraq now and it's like, are we better off without Saddam? Strategically, geopolitically. So you look at. Saddam was basically a counterbalance to Iran, and we let them kind of go at it. Right. And it was. It would have kept Iran from gaining too much power. And now basically Iran controls Iraq. So how can that be seen as a success? Not to mention all the lives lost. And it was sold on completely untrue basis of WMDs. So I think that one's a clear no. And then Afghanistan, I mean, they did harbor Al Qaeda, and so I think that was justified. But I mean, pretty much the war was won by like 2003. And then big army comes in. It gets turned into this giant forever war that I think was used to help people get promotions and to make a lot of money. And everyone just said they played their part. They said what they were supposed to say to the American people when it was clearly untrue to anyone who was there. And 20 years later, you know, they pull out in shame. Just this complete debacle still, you know, makes me sick to think about. And then we immediately shift gears to, oh, yeah, actually the Taliban wasn't so bad. It's these ISIS K guys are the real threat.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And you're like, okay, but we've been fighting these guys for 20 years.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. And now we're sending them $80 million a week.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

I don't know if we'll still be sending that by the time the interviewers. But because it's, you know, in the House now, they now it's on to the Senate to shut that shit down.

[Dale Stark]

But it's unbelievable to trust our government at all. No.

[Sean Ryan]

Any aspect of it.

[Dale Stark]

No. I think all they do. I think something happens organically or inorganically, and they just look at it. How can we spin this to further our own interests? So 9, 11 happens and then we go into Afghanistan, we go into Iraq. I mean, you look at like all the money that was made and it's just, I don't know, it's just hard to articulate the level of like rage that I have for these people that just lied to us for so long. I mean, we all have friends whose kids, you know, grew up without a dad, you know, and this was like 10 years into the war, 15 years into the war. Abby Gate 20 years later, it's like, why, like we all knew. Anyone who knew anything about that war knew that the strategy that they were employing was going nowhere. I mean, that was obvious to the youngest private. And then the four star general goes and briefs Congress and says everything's great. The ANA and the ap, you know, Afghan National Army, National Police, they're getting up to speed, they're gonna be ready to go. You know, they basically had the same talking points for 20 years. Yeah, you get that. You know, there's a lot of careerism because, you know, they're dressing up like Patton and all these generals, but really they're acting more like empty suits, you know, saying whatever it is that kind of the powers that be want them to say. And then they get that combat command tour, go on, get promoted, and then eventually end up at Raytheon or on the board of some defense contractor. So you just look at it and you realize that there were a lot of interest in that entire war that had nothing to do with what they were telling the public.

[Sean Ryan]

It's crazy how many sellouts this country produces. It's just everybody up there is a fucking sellout.

[Dale Stark]

It's like that four star pension isn't good enough.

[Sean Ryan]

You need more greed, man. Yeah, American greed.

[Dale Stark]

It's sad to see. Hopefully there's.

[Sean Ryan]

I mean, even looking back, I mean, there's so many things that you can kind of piece together. Like you were talking about southern Afghanistan, we were talking about southern Afghanistan. And the big. And the big push down in Lash and Marja and I mean, Marja was supposed to be with the second biggest offensive force since Fallujah. And I remember when Obama came out, those Roes, it was for the, for the Marine infantry at least, was because I was at the agency down there when that was all happening. And I remember those, when those Roes came out, they were saying that if you get shot at and they drop their weapon, you're not allowed to engage.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

And at that point, it's like, what the fuck are we doing here? Like, why are you chopping our guys legs out from under him? Like you're not even giving.

[Dale Stark]

I wouldn't send them outside the wire.

[Sean Ryan]

That's what I'm saying. You know, second of all, like, it's. It makes it impossible for them to complete the, the mission or you, you strip them of all confidence because now they're all worried that their superior is going to send them to jail if they dime them out. That a guy dropped. I mean, what, what if he drops his weapon while you're shooting him? I mean, what.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I remember. I think it was McChrystal who gave this speech. He's like, it's the bullet you don't fire that will win the war. And it was supposed to be some like, you know, guru. Yeah, like, strategy. Some like, you know, some strategy to a level that us normal people could never understand. I'm like, if that's the case again, why send anyone outside the wire? Oh, well, we're gonna go do community engagement. It's like, okay, we're all dressed up like stormtroopers in a tribal society and we're gonna turn them into like a Jeffersonian democracy. Like, this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. And, you know, I think they kept trying to build it up, like, oh, they have a plan. There's just. Stay the course. They have a plan. And eventually, I mean, maybe I'm a slow learner, but after like a decade and a half, you're like, there is no plan. This is the plan. It's just to keep the contracts going and then keep getting promoted.

[Sean Ryan]

It's sad, man. It's. Our standing in the world is just. I feel like it's completely shot. I think people, I think other countries just protect, just lie. They don't want to challenge because of the repercussions because we are so powerful and, and. And the rest of the world hates us. I mean, I don't even. I hate fucking saying this shit, but.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, it's depressing because bad guys. Yeah, like, what, what good was done from that? Like, I mean, we're the people. We're fighting over there again, like, I think the vast majority of them had no concept of 9 11, and like, a lot of them were like teenagers pulled from madrasas in Pakistan that were given, you know, five bucks and some opium and said, hey, go put on this suicide vest and walk into, you know, go find someone in uniform and bloat up. It's just, it's like, I Don't know. A lot of these people that just seem to want us to go to war everywhere have no actual firsthand experience of what it. What it looks like.

[Sean Ryan]

Man, that shit makes me so fucking angry.

[Dale Stark]

It does, yeah. And then I couldn't believe how fast they shifted from the global war on terror to Ukraine. And I know Putin invaded Ukraine, but I also remember when Putin invaded Crimea in 2014, and it was hardly a news cycle. And call me suspicious, but I remember thinking, like, they're just going to, like, shut down all these contracts. I remember thinking that, like, there's so much money being made in Afghanistan. I mean, I got invited. This is kind of weird. I got invited to the Raytheon plant.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, really?

[Dale Stark]

To celebrate the thousandth laser Maverick coming off the production line. Because I had. In my 2014 deployment, I had fired some Laser Mavericks in combat. So they're like, we want a combat vet who's fired this missile in theater to be at the ceremony. So we go there and get a tour of the facility. And anyhow, I just remember thinking, like, after the Afghanistan thing going, there's a lot of. I was actually surprised they did it. And I was like, there's a lot of money going all over the place for these contracts. So are they just going to get shut down now? Is that going to be. Are we shifting gears into some new economy? Something else going to happen? And then it was like clockwork. Then the Ukraine thing hit. And then, of course, this time, unlike 2014, now it's the biggest thing on the news, and it's something that we need to spend hundreds of billions of dollars for. And then you're like, oh, yeah, those. You know, not to be a cynic, but all those contracts are just keep Ukraine.

[Sean Ryan]

Could have been a simple real estate purchase. Those people didn't want to be a part of that anyways. Yeah, Russia wanted it. That could have been a very simple real estate transaction.

[Dale Stark]

Seems like that's not what they wanted. Yeah, they wanted it to drag out.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. I wonder how long it will drag out. I wonder who's going to dismantle what we know today is the US because getting. That's one of the new things that I want to do with the show, is start going around and getting the perspective of us from the rest of the world and not what the fucking media tells us. I think that would be very interesting.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. And what's crazy is I rarely meet people in real life who think we should be involved all over the world. And I don't know, maybe that's my bubble. But for some reason, no matter who we vote for, we get, like, Liz Cheney's foreign policy.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

There's, like, no way out of it. Like, it's not the. I don't think it's the American people driving this. They consistently try to vote their way out of these forever Wars. I mean, Obama 2008 campaign ran on, you know, getting out of these stupid wars. Trump ran on getting out of the wars. You know, it's like everybody runs on disengagement because that's what the. That's what I think, what most people want, but it just never happens.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, that's depressing. But let's get. Let's get. Let's get back to your career. So you do four years at the. What was the program called?

[Dale Stark]

I was at the 4th 42nd attack squadron.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

Just flying MQ9s in Vegas.

[Sean Ryan]

Were you just flying Afghanistan or were you flying Yemen?

[Dale Stark]

Just Afghanistan. I did another deployment to Afghanistan during that time, and, yeah, I mean, I learned a lot about insurgency during that tour. And as I got back to the A10, I think it helped me quite a bit in kind of unexpected ways. But if you're. You're staring at the battle space and on the radio for four years straight, you're gonna see and learn a lot about how the enemy operates, their behavior. I got to the point where I could see the way somebody was walking and the way, like, their tunic laid over their arm. Be like, that guy's got an ak, and it's like, if you're looking at it right now, it would look like a little pixel poking up maybe, you know, and you're like, I can just tell he's not walking like a civilian. You watch. Watch. Sure enough, as soon as he gets a chance, pulls it out, starts to take a shot at friendlies. So you. You got. You got really good at studying the enemy and just looking at their normal, like, patterns of life and things that just did not make sense. So you just. Yeah, see that stuff, report it up to the guy, you know, the guys on the ground. And I know for a fact that we saved just untold American lives, you know, during that tour. So no, you know, no regrets. I guess that's what God had in store for me.

[Sean Ryan]

You very likely saved my ass. But, man, that's. That's interesting. I. It's really. That stuff is just really interesting because I've never talked to a drone pilot, at least not knowingly.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So. And I've always had these questions about, you know, what's what's. I mean, what's it like to kill from thousands and thousands? I mean, half a world away, you know, and. And you described it perfectly, so thank you. But on that note, let's take a break and then when we get back, we'll pick up back at the A10.

[Dale Stark]

Absolutely.

[Advertisement Speaker]

I'd like to invite you to gain access to an exclusive experience on Vigilance Elite, Patreon. Our patrons are the driving force behind the success of this show, and their support allows us to keep doing what we do. Depending on the tier you choose, you'll get access to benefits, like behind the scenes footage before each interview, early access to episodes, end of the month live, zoom calls with me, exclusive merch and more. Join us and become a patron starting at just $5 a month by visiting patreon.com vigilanceelite that's patreon.com vigilance elite.

[Sean Ryan]

Thank you for listening to the Shawn Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to itunes, and leave the Shawn Ryan Show a review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, Dale, we're back from the break. What were we talking about? Do you remember?

[Dale Stark]

It's all blended in.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. More corruption, but it'll come to me. So. But anyways, back to your story. So we wrapped up the M9 tour. M9, MQ9. MQ9. Excuse me. Fascinating stuff, by the way. Thank you for sharing that. And so you're going back to rotation with the A10.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So that whole time I was flying the MQ9, they were saying, you're never going back. And I just kind of didn't accept that. And again, I think God was looking out for me again, because as I approached the end of that tour, they were going to send me to the MQ9 schoolhouse to be an instructor. And I've never been one to hold my true thoughts, you know, And I just told my commander, like, I absolutely do not want to do that. I want to get back to the A10. You know, that whole time I'm in Vegas, probably the first time in my life I'm giving my body a rest because, you know, high school wrestling at a high level is really tough on your body. Cutting weight training really hard. Then two years of collegiate wrestling and then into flying. And it was just, you know, it was just nice to get a break physically. And I did physical therapy. I had some sort of different kind of shots and stuff, like spinal. Spinal shots. And I started feeling much better. Like, I was getting the feeling back in my hands and stuff. And anyhow, so he's like, well, like, you gotta get a waiver to get back to the hog, a medical waiver and this and that. But he wasn't completely, like, closed down to it. And I think it made a big impact that I gave my all during that assignment. If I had just, you know, phoned it in, there would have been zero chance. But I mean, as far, I did everything I could do during that four years to contribute to the mission. And he knew it, and he wanted to get me what I wanted after that. So anyhow, went through the medical process, and they granted me a waiver to return to fly. And my former director of ops from Alaska is now the wing commander at an A10 base. And so I'm just, like, throwing hail Marys. I'm like, hey, sir, Trying to get back to the A10. If there's any chance, like, if there's any spot for me anywhere, like, I will. I will be the, you know, squadron cleaning guy. Like, I will do any extra duty. I will deploy immediately. Like, whatever you need, I will. You'll never hear a complaint from me. I just want to get back to the hog. And they, like, made an exception and let me go back to the A10. And so I didn't have to go be an instructor in the MQ9. I made it back to the hog. So from there, I went to. Back to Tucson and went to the bulldogs at the 354th Fighter Squadron and just kind of try to pick up where I left off.

[Sean Ryan]

What was it like being back?

[Dale Stark]

It was awesome. You know, like, I was.

[Sean Ryan]

It's like riding a bike.

[Dale Stark]

I. I got back into it quicker than. Than I would have thought. I went through a retraining course, and it was just awesome because now I'm going through something similar to, like, the initial qualification. But I had, like, several years experience flying the A10, so it was. It was not difficult.

[Sean Ryan]

Had anything changed? New technology?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So I had flown the A10Amodel when I had left, and it was all, like, steam gauges in the jet. Like, just looked like a Cessna. You would fly, like, an old Cessna, you know, like, you had this weapons control panel where you literally, like, analog scroll in, like, what weapon you wanted, how many. You know, you press the button, the timing for the release sequence, like, it was all analog. And while I was gone, they had upgraded to the A10C model, and everything was digital. So now you have like these multifunction displays, GPS with like moving map displays. Some new weapons had come online that I hadn't been trained on. But, you know, flying the jet, doing the mission, and then all the avionics were very intuitive, so I picked it up pretty quick. And yeah, from there I did a couple years in the squadron, started upgrading again. So getting my flight lead, four ship flight lead qualification, eventually upgraded to instructor and evaluator. So just kind of like caught up on the time I had missed when I was gone. Then first daughter's born around this time too. So now I'm back in the jet and the family's growing. So it was, it was similar to my first assignment in that it just nothing but fond memories, you know, it was, it was almost like I had another shot at a first assignment. And yeah, it was fantastic.

[Sean Ryan]

What, How. So you had your daughter. How did you meet your wife?

[Dale Stark]

Okay, yeah, so I've known Amanda since the fourth grade. So we.

[Sean Ryan]

Since fourth grade, yeah.

[Dale Stark]

We grew up together. You know, I was moving around a bunch, so we kind of lost contact. But then when I was in Alaska, she's amazing. She has a master's degree in chemistry from Vanderbilt and she had gotten a job teaching in the Bay Area. And we were closing down. The squadron, like that squadron I was at in Alaska was shutting the doors. And so we were taking all of our jets and transferring them to this base in Utah that refurbishes them and then was going to send them out to other units anyhow. So I'm flying jets back to the continental US Fairly frequently by myself, like single singletons. And then I'm rooting all my flights with the longest delays possible in the Bay Area where she was, so I could have an excuse to go see her and meet up with her and stuff. So I'd be like, yeah, I've got a 22 hour layover in the Bay Area. She's like, well, that sounds like the worst flight ever. That's like a red eye. And then. Yeah, anyhow, so I kept doing that and we just hit it off again. Kind of reconnected since high school. Then she came out to Korea because she was teaching chemistry at the time. So she came out there for the summer and then got married in Vegas. So good background on my lovely bride.

[Sean Ryan]

And you guys have been married for how long?

[Dale Stark]

15 years now.

[Sean Ryan]

Congratulations.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's awesome. I. I did not love being single. Like, being married is amazing.

[Sean Ryan]

So with. And she's been through all the deployments or a lot of deployments.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, she's. She's. Yeah, we were. We started talking when I just got back from my first deployment in Alaska.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay, so switching gears, and then we'll get back to atem. What do you think is the secret to a successful marriage?

[Dale Stark]

Um, that's a good question. I think, you know, like, it's. Being married is really easy before you have kids. Right.

[Sean Ryan]

So just found that out.

[Dale Stark]

So. Yeah, when, like, we just had so much fun together, you know? Like, to me, being married to her was. Is just. I love it. Like, she's. I'm so happy with her. Like, we're just a good team. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, wow, I'm really excited that she likes me enough to marry me. Like one of those situations, you know? Like, she's beautiful, smart, loyal. We grew up in the same place, you know, so have shared background. And so being married to her, I would say, is easy. And then the kids come along, you know, and neither of my girls slept at all for, like, two years straight. Like, just hard sleepers. And we were so paranoid. We're, like, following all the rules, like, oh, no co sleeping and they have to be on their back. They can't be on their side or, you know, whatever it is. We're, like, freaked out following all the rules now. If we could go back, we probably wouldn't follow none of those rules. It was just too hard. It was hard. So introducing kids definitely adds challenges because now all your focus is on. For me, it was like my career and then my kids and then my wife is really what was happening. And, you know, I think if your wife is unhappy, she might not necessarily tell you, but you can feel it, you know, and it's like when you're working 70 hours a week and then you have kids, then you're not sleeping, and then any spare time is, you know, if you're, like, doing anything else and, you know, you're kind of not putting your family, you're not prioritizing correctly, which we can get to later about what I'm doing now. But, yeah, I think we definitely had struggles when I'm starting to deploy again, you know, we have kids, and even when your home station in a fighter squadron, you might go tdy, a temporary duty, like a training exercise, you might be leaving 10 times a year, and those training workups might be two weeks, three weeks long. So it's just. It's a demanding career field, obviously, but so to wrap this up, what makes a happy marriage Like, I think you have to reprioritize. Should be wife first and then kids. And then your kids are going to be as happy as possible if you and your wife are getting along. So if you're getting along with your wife, everything's going to fall into place after that. So it's just being deliberate. And I still work at that, but it's like, okay, we're going to go on a date. We're going to spend time with just you and I, no distractions, and try to do that regularly. Just make that time a priority. And then she'll feel that you care about her, and then she'll be happy and your life will be good.

[Sean Ryan]

That's great advice, man. Thank you. Thank you. And congratulations on 15 years. Is there a high divorce rate in the as a pilot?

[Dale Stark]

I mean, I don't know the stats, but from anecdotally, yes.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, I would say I could see that it's brutal.

[Dale Stark]

And that's why I love her so much too. Like, she was just rock solid through my entire career and supported me 100%. So it's like she deserves that attention, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. Well, back to the A10.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So do you deploy again as an A10 pilot?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So now been back for a good period of time a couple years. And I really wanted to get back in the fight, you know, I deployed as a young wingman again. Just kind of been to some troops in contact and some interesting situations, but really not fully engaged, you know, then deployed in the MQ9. So it's like I really want to get in the mix in the hog again. And so I was able to jump in on a. A deployment with the 303rd Fighter Squadron. It's a reserve unit out of Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri. And they were going to Afghanistan and they had like two empty billets that they wanted active duty to fill. And so I saw that and I volunteered and so got to jump back in on another deployment in 2014. And yeah, that trip was. Was incredible because that unit was highly experienced. So being a reserve unit, they. They're full of, like, just some of the most experienced pilots in the Air Force. Like, some of them had been there for decades. Like, I flew with a guy. Carl Marks has like, more a 10 hours than anyone ever will. No one will ever catch him. It's like 7,000 hours.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

He's a machine. He destroyed, I want to say, 27 armor pieces in the first Gulf War as a lieutenant.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

And then flew like the entire G watt, you Know, and he's still flying right now. He'll be probably the last one to climb off the ladder when they're done.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn.

[Dale Stark]

But yeah, so I'm flying with these, these just incredible, incredible people in Afghanistan that, that 2014 deployment. And yeah, it was just a, it was just a great trip. Just did the mission. Flew for like seven months. Did nothing but fly.

[Sean Ryan]

Flight lead.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. Yep. I was a flight lead now. And yeah, I'm just. Engagements, more engagements. Yeah. Now I finally get to do the job in the hog.

[Sean Ryan]

Let's talk about that. Let's talk about, let's talk about your first kill in the A10. We talked about it in the drone. Let's talk about it here.

[Dale Stark]

Okay, so we're, we're supporting this. Troops in contact over by, I want to say, FOB Right again, up in north, forgive me, northeastern Afghanistan, kind of north of Nixon's nose on, on the border. And so we report to this tech, check in, give them our loadout, our time on station, and start getting the dope on what's going on in the ground situation. And as soon as, as soon as we show up, there's like these, these little birds, you know, the. I'm sorry, not little birds, the Kiowas, you know those. They shoot like they're tiny little helicopters and the pilots are such badasses, like. And so they're like, they're out of munitions and they're like shooting it out.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you serious?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, they're shooting. They're in like M4 out the door. They're like straight up cowboys. They're in a firefighter. Like, I'm overhead watching these guys like, holy. Shoot it out. And he's like shooting his right mag dumping out the door at this enemy fighting position. And we get him on the horn and I'm like, oh, dude, I'm Gonna put a 500 pound bomb right on it. Right. But I gotta get them to move away. And they're like, they're not having it. Cause they're like, they're just shooting it out with these guys, man. That's what they're.

[Sean Ryan]

That's what they want to do.

[Dale Stark]

That's what they wanted to do. I mean, I have so much respect for those guys. Like, they just, they just get in the mix. But anyway, finally it was real basic. I fixed the enemy position, got them outside of the bomb frag range, so like a safe distance. And they just came in medium altitude and put a 500 pound bomb and silence the guns.

[Sean Ryan]

I bet that would do it.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. Yeah. And then there were quite a few more employments on that trip. It was pretty active at that time.

[Sean Ryan]

I mean, how did that feel compared to the drone?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, and it's just like, like I said, the tasks were very similar. Like, hey, you gotta get in bomb range, you gotta be flying a specific heading and airspeed. You gotta get in the window, you know, pickle the bomb off and lays it into the target. So the tasks were very similar, but the, in this case, it was a GPS guided bomb, so it just went to the coordinates. But. But it just. When you're physically there in the firefight, it makes a difference. Yeah, it just, you know, you feel like King Kong again. You're like, I can't believe you just have all this firepower at your fingertips. And then, you know, these guys are harming my guys, they're hurting them, and now I'm just going to make them go away, you know, and that's. And you're just like, what do I want to select what makes sense for this tactical situation? And then you just do it. And guns go quiet and everyone's happy.

[Sean Ryan]

What about, have you ever flown a mission where you went Winchester? Winchester for the audience means out of ammunition.

[Dale Stark]

I never did in theater. I may have gotten pretty close. I never, I've never been in a situation where I needed bullets. I've gotten close to being Winchester, but I don't think I fully emptied the gun.

[Sean Ryan]

Well, let's talk about that specific moment in time.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So, like, the. All these situations are very similar. Like, because that's basically what we do. And in this case, I think it was like, we're seeing. We're kind of out in the middle of nowhere and we're seeing muzzles, flashes from a tree line, but you can't really pinpoint the point of origin. You're just like, I know that that's an enemy position and they're ambushing these friendlies who are pinned down. And you might want to, like, there's a whole variety of factors on weapon selection. Like, you might not want to put a bomb there because of collateral damage concerns. You know, they're. Again, there's just so many factors of what you decide, but in this case, we're like, let's just strafe the tree line until these guys can break contact and keep moving. And so Wingman and I just kind of set up like, we call it like a race car pattern to ship and just did multiple passes on this treeline until pretty quickly they broke contact and blasted out of there. So yeah, this is like more like suppressive fire at this point.

[Sean Ryan]

Which weapon system do you like utilizing the Most on the A10?

[Dale Stark]

It's gotta be the gun.

[Sean Ryan]

The gun, yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And then second would be Maverick missiles. But the gun is awesome.

[Sean Ryan]

Can you talk about that? Another experience.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So it was funny. I was flying with Carl, this legend, and at this point I'm like, I think I'm a major, he's a lieutenant colonel, but he's such a legend that I'm like, okay, I don't want to embarrass myself, so I'm acting like a lieutenant and he's a general officer or something. Sir, how do you like your coffee? Like we get to fly together. I just don't. I don't want to lose his respect, you know. So he's like, just professional all the way down. Very little expression. Here's our mission, here's what we're doing. I'm flying on his wing and we're going to support an infill, you know, and it's at night now and we're out there and he needs gas. So he goes to the tanker and then this, of course this thing just pops off with him gone. And he's like, damn you, Pork chop. Wait for me. I don't know if he actually said that, but you could tell he was like, he's like, where are you at? What's going on? He's just like, he's getting to the tanker and wants to get back as fast as he can. Because he hadn't shot a laser Maverick yet on that trip. He hadn't had the opportunity to. So anyhow, I knew that because we had talked about it and I'm like, I know exactly what we're going to do. I'm going to set up this attack. And the ground commander requested laser maverick for this particular target. And I just set it up to where he rolled off the tanker. And then I was wheeled up around the target and then he just came in, got a good spot on the laser energy, got it within proper range, rifled off the Maverick and then I provided the terminal guidance and we crushed the target and then came back around and strafed the follow up targets together. So damn, it was like, it was awesome.

[Sean Ryan]

That's badass, man.

[Dale Stark]

Oh, and then on the way back, Carl, it was so cool. Cause now we're like best buddies. He's like, pork Chop, that was awesome. He dropped the stoic warrior for just like just a few minutes.

[Sean Ryan]

That's awesome, man.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

So was that Your final deployment?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, that was my final deployment. My daughter was born, like, just prior to that. So I want to say she was like, I don't know, four months old when I left, and by the time I got back, she was like a year old. And so. And I had volunteered for that deployment and I promised my wife, like, if I get sent, you know, I'm happy to go, but I won't volunteer. Like, I won't, you know, force the issue.

[Sean Ryan]

Won't chase it.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. I'm like, I've done everything I ever set out to do in this jet times 10, you know, so I'm happy with what I've done. And. Yeah. So I get back from that deployment and I pick up my first instructor assignment in same location, which was cool, so we didn't have to move. So I moved from the operational squadron over to the training squadron. And so now serving as an instructor for those new pilots coming straight out of pilot training. So kind of full circle from where I started.

[Sean Ryan]

Now, how'd that. I mean, were you a tough instructor?

[Dale Stark]

I think I was kind of a Santa Claus.

[Sean Ryan]

Really.

[Dale Stark]

I just, I don't know. I held the standard because, you know, what the Air Force needs is competent, you know, proficient A10 pilots. But they were, I feel like they were pretty damn good. They worked their ass off and they had been through so much that, I mean, maybe, I don't know, I. I didn't feel like I had to be a hard ass. I just had to uphold the standard.

[Sean Ryan]

So you. So when you went to instructor duty, it was, you were, it was. They'd been through all the phases. Now it's the A10 pilots.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So, like, I got to fly with students on their very first flight in the A10.

[Sean Ryan]

That has to be pretty cool to see.

[Dale Stark]

It was awesome. I, like, some people scoff at instructor duty, but it was one of my favorite times in the Air Force. Like, they're just, they're so excited about every mission. I mean, some people, you know, it's like early in the phase, they're not doing anything particularly exciting. You're just, you know, flying around the flagpole, getting them familiar with the jet. But to them, it's exciting. This is brand new, so I thought, I thought it was awesome. It was very rewarding.

[Sean Ryan]

When did you separate from the military?

[Dale Stark]

So I basically did that for a while. I stayed on as an instructor, and then I became the director of ops for the instruct for the training squadron. So writing the syllabus and things like that. And then I Got picked up for Squadron Command out at Avon park in Florida. And that's a training facility, so it's not where they send their future four stars, you know, but, like, for a guy like me that was prior enlisted and made it back to the hog, it was. It was a great honor, you know, so just run this, basically this training compound for exercises. Did that for a couple years, and then came back to Tucson, and I was able to stay flying during that assignment. Came back to Tucson, taught for a while, and then at the end of that, again, it was just more kind of like neck and back issues kind of coming back, doing a lot of staff work, and at that point, just decided that I was basically done and ready to hit the door.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. You had mentioned at breakfast that, you know, when you're done. Without a doubt.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

And so what. Was there anything in particular that. I mean, you're fresh out. You got out on 2023.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, there was a few factors. Like, first and foremost, I was just kind of physically spent. Like, I was a spent force. Like, I. From all the back and neck issues, I went, like, I went so long, like, I couldn't even feel half my hand, like. And just. They put me on pain meds. They did. We were doing different things to kind of try to eke out a few more months. You know what I mean?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

Just kind of like, what am I doing? Like, I fly one sortie, and for the next week, I can't even rotate my neck. Like, this is. I'm like, the Air Force is going to move on just fine without me, you know, So I just. I was just feeling it. And then the Air Force was changing, too, now. So, you know, I had come in, I think I said, I enlisted December 99. You know, so we're like, over 20 years later now. And, you know, I was a squadron commander during COVID During all the riots, you know, during the Trump presidency, you know, all the Russia collusion hoax narrative. And it's just going like, what are we doing as a country? Like, this is. This is not what I signed up for. Like, to, you know, we all believe in this, like, you know, this colorblind meritocracy, like, you put in the work. This institution will give you the ability to reach your potential. You know, America needs war fighters, and if you are willing to do what it takes, no matter, you know, what you look like, where you came from, we're going to give you that opportunity. And I actually remember, so it was like 20. 20 riots kicked off and the chief of staff of the Air Force put out a video, this guy, CQ Brown. And I was like, oh, great. He's going to be kind of a reassuring voice. I figured we're all kind of wired the same way. And he was going to put out a great statement about how this is a great country. And I was looking forward to hearing it, you know. And then I listened to his video, and I don't know if it's just the way I interpreted it, but it was like, not at all what I was expecting. It was like kind of that, I don't know, woke race communism, grievance kind of mindset about how awful, you know, his career was and how everyone was racist. And I don't know, maybe I'm over reading into it, but I'm just going, like, can't we hear, like, a unifying voice? Not more grievance, you know?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And so just stuff like that's happening, and I'm basically just over it.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

I'm going like, you know, the whole DEI thing is just so toxic for the military. It's like, if you start injecting this quotas and requirements and this and that, it completely diverges from the institution that I love, which is. Which I truly believe. And every commander I ever served with was amazing. And they didn't care who you were. They're like, where you came from, what the color of your skin was. They didn't care any about any of that. And if you were good like you, you were going to be respected and you were going to get all the opportunities. And it just felt like they were shifting to something else, you know, just kind of a combination of all that. I just, like, I remember talking to my commander when I was. My group commander, when I was a squadron commander about going to Air War College. And it's not that I'm some, you know, fantastic officer, but I think so many people were separating that they had a lot of slots available. He's just like, hey, what do you want to do for school? So if you go to Air War College, it's kind of get your ticket punched at 06 and group command. And I talked to my wife about it, and it's just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to move every 10 months. I'm physically over it, and I don't even know what the hell our leadership is saying.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

On half of this stuff. So I just decided it was time for us to go and so told him I was going to get Out. And then that's why I was able to get back to Tucson and picked up another instructor tour, which is at that point is basically you're saying, hey, I'm not on the path to promotion and I'm just waiting to get out.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, man, I can't imagine, you know, I talked to guys that are still in and like, guys like yourself that had. And women who have recently retired and man, the morale, it just seems like it's at an all time low, you know, and.

[Dale Stark]

I can't get anyone to join. I mean, it's like, how hard should it be to get young men to come shoot guns and fly airplanes and hang out with their friends? I mean, it's awesome. I think I want everybody to have that opportunity if they want it, but it's making it so divisive.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, well, I mean, there's so many agendas, it seems like being shoved down everybody's throat that. I mean, I get asked that all the time, you know, do, do. I'm sure you do too. Probably on social, you know, you got young, young adults asking if I would serve in the military now or should they serve? And that's a tough question for me. Yeah, you know, I don't know. I don't really agree with anything we're doing and I don't agree with any of the agendas coming out. I mean, why are we talking about sexual preference?

[Dale Stark]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

In a war fighting machine, why is that relevant? It's not, you know, why does it keep getting brought up?

[Dale Stark]

Dude, I remember going to MacDill Air Force Base in the summer of 2020 for a medical appointment. And in the hospital where all these flyers and signs up that had like the LGBTQIA flag with like the BLM fist superimposed on the front of it and thinking, like, how is this acceptable? This is like far left, you know, divisive political imagery. But in the military I Served prided itself on being nonpartisan, being neutral. We serve the American people, you know, like, we're not. You leave your politics at home.

[Sean Ryan]

You weren't even allowed to speak out about that kind of shit. If I remember corruption. I mean, it's been a long time. I left in 06.

[Dale Stark]

I came in during don't ask, don't tell.

[Sean Ryan]

But I mean, what do you. What are you. What are your thoughts when people ask that question?

[Dale Stark]

You know, I. I've thought about it a lot and I think I would be giving bad advice if I talk to a guy just like me and shut him down and told Him. You can't do this because now it's ruined. And then it's like, what are you supposed to do? Kid living in his car that has, you know, tons of ambition but no direction.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And it's like, fly these jets, do these things. It's like, do it. If me telling you not to do it would have stopped you, you probably weren't going to make it anyway. But go do it and serve honorably. And we're going to need people that have that experience and we're going to need good people because hopefully this madness ends and reasonable people take charge again. So go do it and do the best you can and serve with honor and don't do anything that violates your conscience. I mean, one thing they teach us all, I hope they're still teaching it, is that you are not to fall unlawful orders, you know, so just know that we might be going into an era where that's actually relevant, you know, so, you know, I would say do it. Go. I mean, there's amazing benefits. I had the time of my life.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

You know, like, I had so much fun. I served with the most amazing people. And I want that to be an opportunity for young people to continue doing so. I say, if you want to do it, go do it. But just know that there may come a time where you have to actually stand up and say, no, I'm not doing that.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, that's good advice. You know, I tell them.

[Dale Stark]

If you.

[Sean Ryan]

Like the direction that the country is going, join.

[Dale Stark]

And starve them out kind of thing.

[Sean Ryan]

If you do, when you get up there to the ranks, hold your ground, man. Like, don't fold like all these other upper brass. I mean, look at. Look, she's. And then I also tell them, I say, you know, there's a lot of. Nothing's ever what you think it is, in my experience. And you're not joining the military that you probably think you are, and times have changed and, you know, and, man, it's just. It's really disheartening. It breaks my heart to see what everything is turning into. And, you know, a lot of. There's the argument about. And I get it. It bothers me, too, you know, the. Well, we have to have a military who's going to defend the country. Well, we have a second Amendment. And so if this country gets invaded, guess what? We're all in the fucking military now, buddy. And there's a lot of guns in this country, and there's a lot of people that know how to use them. And it would be extremely hard for somebody to invade.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, I don't think it's feasible with today's technology.

[Sean Ryan]

I don't either, you know, but.

[Dale Stark]

But I see where you're coming from and kind of my darker angels just want to say, tell everybody to, like, starve the beast. You know, don't. Don't send your kids to, you know, die for pedophile rights in Uganda or whatever the latest thing they're sanctioning someone for. Yeah. So I.

[Sean Ryan]

Is that a thing?

[Dale Stark]

There was like, there was this recent event where Uganda passed a law that was deemed anti lgbt, and in that included, I think, like, capital punishment for pedophiles, which is a pretty good law in my book.

[Sean Ryan]

It's appropriate to me.

[Dale Stark]

But then there was like, massive outrage from D.C. from the left and the right, and they got, like, sanctioned for it as a violation of human rights. So.

[Sean Ryan]

Sanctioned from. What do we get from Uganda?

[Dale Stark]

Some sort of aid.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow.

[Dale Stark]

I mean, I'm out of my wheelhouse here, but it's like, you just see, what are our values? What do we. What do we. Is it hard work treating people fairly? Or is it, let's go spread gay rights overseas? That's the only thing I see.

[Sean Ryan]

I mean, like, mutilate children.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Rip them from their homes, let them make a decision that's gonna affect the rest of their life when they can't even smoke a fucking cigarette till they're 18 or drink a beer until they're 21.

[Dale Stark]

Like, that's our value system.

[Sean Ryan]

I thought that was what it is.

[Dale Stark]

Now, if that's the case, like, it's. What's the point of any of this? Right? Like, why would anyone sacrifice to prop that up?

[Sean Ryan]

I don't know. But. So you moved to. You moved to Oregon.

[Dale Stark]

Yep.

[Sean Ryan]

And now you're. You're working a branch. How's that. How's that learning? How's that learning curve?

[Dale Stark]

It's awesome, man. You know, the. We've talked about the kind of demands of military life, all these moves, you know, and as I'm moving around at the end of my career, I'm watching my oldest daughter go from this, like, the brightest light, full of joy and happiness to kind of like shutting down, you know, like, we move from Tucson to Florida, and then she makes new friends, you know, and then I get my beautiful Sarah comes along and she makes friends, you know, and they're like, we're getting into a good routine there, but it's a two year assignment. Then we. It's the third move for my oldest Holly back to Tucson, but now everybody's gone that she knew then. And I just see her, like, kind of shutting down. Like, she didn't, you know, at this time, she's like 7, 8 years old. She doesn't want to make new friends. She's not being outgoing. She's kind of lashing out at mom, and it's difficult. And I'm going, like, man, like, every. Every child is different, right? But I see this child is not going to do well with this lifestyle, and we got to do something different. And so I started looking at this, going like, okay, do I want to do the airlines? Do I want to go? You know, the Air Force paid for me to get an mba, so do I want to go to corporate America? Like, what am I going to do? It's basically a blank slate. It's like graduating high school again, right? And I'm looking at all the time away, all the long days from my family and thinking like, we're, you know, my wife was successful. I'm doing pretty good. Like, together, we don't need a ton of money to make it. So why don't we do something that. Where we can really just pour into these kids and invest in our family and, you know, completely off the beaten path. So decided to forego airlines, forego corporate America, and we bought an old dairy farm that hadn't been operational in, like, 30 years. All overgrown with briars and alders, and barn was leaking and. But there was. It was still there. And just decided to step off onto this journey of transforming this property that had just kind of gone into disarray, back into a functional cattle ranch. So, yeah, just been a lot of time, you know, working outside, homeschooling the kids, so building fences, you know, planting grass, trimming trees, clearing out brush, you know, doing roofing, just. Just manual work outside. And that's basically what I've been doing since I got out.

[Sean Ryan]

Is that therapeutic for you?

[Dale Stark]

Oh, it's amazing. I just, like. I don't know, I think it took me at least, you know, six to nine months to even begin to understand the amount of stress I was under on active duty. And, yeah, it's just reconnecting with nature, you know? Yeah, you're just outside every day. You kind of live by the natural conditions. Like, it's like, okay, what's the rain looking like? What's the temperature? What's the sun exposure? How's my grass gonna do? Also back surfing. So what's the swell look like you're surfing again? Yeah. Nice man, nothing like I did when I was younger, but taking my girls out surfing, going with my dad, he was always a surfer.

[Sean Ryan]

Damn, that's awesome.

[Dale Stark]

So, yeah, it's just, it's like, it's a chance to take each day and maximize it for what's important to me.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you, Like I said, I've been following you for a while on X and man, you posted a fourth of July, Independence Day. You posted a photo of your daughter, one of your daughters. What is that, a 22?

[Dale Stark]

That's a 22 mag, yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Walking in the creek barefoot. How old is she there?

[Dale Stark]

Seven.

[Sean Ryan]

Seven years old. I think the caption was like, the European mind can't fathom this, this, this level of freedom or something. I was like, holy shit, that is amazing. That is so fucking American. It's awesome. But are you guys like, are you 100% self sufficient out there?

[Dale Stark]

I mean, we are still connected to the power grid and we still go to the grocery store. We probably, I don't know, produce 80, 90% of the calories we eat, you know, just from, you know, I do Angus grass fed grass, finished beef. So you. It's really difficult to get to fully like comprehend what you're eating. Even if you shop at like, you know, the highest end natural grocers or whatever it may be, you can't really know exactly what you're putting in your body, what you're putting in your kid's body, unless you raise that food from the ground up. So yeah, to just, you know, see a calf born and watch it grow and you know, process steers and put it in the freezer and feed it to your family. It's the most rewarding feeling ever.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you guys growing too?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, we have a huge garden, but just for personal use.

[Sean Ryan]

Greenhouse?

[Dale Stark]

Yep, we got a greenhouse.

[Sean Ryan]

Man. Like you guys got it made out there.

[Dale Stark]

It's a little slice of paradise.

[Sean Ryan]

It looks amazing and it makes me jealous every time I see you post a picture of your property. But yeah, you know, with the homeschool thing, we're, I mean, we're thinking about doing homeschooling, but it's always this like issue of, you know, are the kids going to be socialized enough? And so somebody who's going, who's doing it, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, you look pretty isolated out there.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah, we're not too far from civilization. You know, it's like it's within, you know, you be in civilization in 30 minutes. So it's not crazy, but yeah, it's something you have to think about and I think plan for. I honestly think moving around in the military every couple of years is probably harder on kids and socially than homeschooling. And homeschooling now looks very different than it did like when we were kids because so many people are doing it. You set up these cohorts filled with homeschoolers that have like, similar values. You know, we're all Christians. We all want to raise our kids with good Christian values. And they meet once a week. And that day looks a lot like a traditional classroom. So they're in there with. I think they're. It's growing so fast.

[Sean Ryan]

Where do you do it? Is it on? Is it like move around to people's property?

[Dale Stark]

No. A really awesome family that's done really well in real estate just bought a property and completely renovated it for the school. And it's just like a community resource now for homeschoolers.

[Sean Ryan]

No kidding.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. It's amazing. And like my wife was a, you know, like we said, she went to Vanderbilt, she taught chemistry, and she teaches a chemistry course there to like all the kids who are like junior high, high school age. And then there's just amazingly talented people there. So I would say homeschool nowadays looks a lot more. It's like merges homeschool and traditional school. It's just on your own terms.

[Sean Ryan]

That's interesting. You know, I had this. I mean, we're. We're a little way. Actually we're not far out now, but we had a. Several families over at our house that all have kids around the same age. And I had this idea where it sounds like very similar where. Except we would all pitch in and because everybody's concerned about what the public's schools are teaching now and the private schools and who's coming. And like in this state we have this wave. Ungodly amount of people from California, Illinois, New York, they're all moving here. And it's raising a lot of concerns. I mean, some of these neighborhoods around here are 60%. 60% of the people in some of these neighborhoods are California. This is Tennessee.

[Dale Stark]

Oh my gosh.

[Sean Ryan]

It's driving all of the locals out of here. None of them can afford to live here anymore. And we're not talking. We're even talking like, well to do young professionals, like, can't afford a house. Yeah, like attorneys. Like, we have a friend who's in a newer attorney who's built a hell of a business and she's got to move out of here because they can't afford it anymore. And. But anyways, all this influx of people moving from all these states that are completely upside down, it's raising a lot of concern to people that have our type of values. And I'm just curious what you think of this. I had this idea where we get a bunch of like minded family friends together who have kids around the same age and we all pitch in money to buy a piece of real estate. So it turns into a. Everybody has skin in the game. It's a real estate investment. You turn that investment into a school.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

It's not a business, it's a real estate investment that just so happens to be where we homeschool all of our kids.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

And, and everybody, like I said, everybody pitches in. We all pitch in. We get a teacher and then everybody has different expertise. We got a finance guy, we've got healthcare professionals, we've got businessmen, we've got entrepreneurs. You know, we've got all these, all these specialties that don't get. Especially how to manage money. Oh yeah, look at what the fuck is going on in this. Nobody can manage their own money. Everybody's drowning in debt because they don't know any better. And then at the end the investment liquidates and the equity gets divvied back up into the percentage that you pitched in.

[Dale Stark]

I think that's a great idea. Do you know Tucker Max? Have you ever.

[Sean Ryan]

Is that the guy that. Is that the I hope they serve beer in hell guy?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. He is so cool. Like, do you know him? I know him. I'm gonna introduce you guys. No way.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you shitting me?

[Dale Stark]

He's come full circle. He is like, you would be shocked with this guy. Like he has a bunch of kids, he raises sheep and he did exactly what you're talking about. They like bought or built a school with a bunch of like minded families. I think he may be writing a book on it now on like what he's doing now. But yeah, he's hilarious and just a really cool person. But they basically did that. It sounds similar to what we did and it works really well. And I think the demand signal will be off the roof, you know, because everyone's looking at the public school system even in the so called good school systems and you know, even in like the, some of the reddest areas in the country. The public school systems are little, you know, propaganda making machines. And I don't know, everything we just did and assumed was normal for our childhoods. I think we're all coming to the realization like oh, you can't trust that these people are giving your kids proper education and values. And I mean, my. If you're like, socially, I think our kids are fine. You know, they do swimming, they do theater, they do all kinds of stuff in the community. And then academically they're like off the charts. So when you get that one on one time. Plus my wife's amazing. But you don't have to slow down if they need to move on and you don't need to. If they need extra work on some area, you don't just skip it. You make sure they understand it. So I mean, my oldest, when she took her last, she took like this, I think it's called the Stanford 10. It's a standardized test. And then they like categorize what is your equivalent grade average? She was in first grade and they rated her in like 10.5 for her overall academic achievement. So it's like, I don't know what that means.

[Sean Ryan]

10 points.

[Dale Stark]

So I'm saying she's basically like a sophomore in high school.

[Sean Ryan]

Are you fucking serious? What?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. I mean, she's very intelligent.

[Sean Ryan]

Like, holy shit, dude.

[Dale Stark]

When she was 7, she read every Raoul Dahl book. Like, she's just, she's a reader. And my youngest is amazing too. Like, they're just, they're killing it. They're going to be so far ahead academically. I mean, I do their math just to give my wife a break because she was doing all of it for the whole time. And then this year I took over the math, so. And I enjoy it. And not only is it, is it kind of fun to teach them math, but you're bonding because you're giving them like an hour of direct one on one attention.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Dale Stark]

And it's just you and them and you're working through these problems and you know, they're not always into it and you gotta motivate them and get them moving. But it's just an incredible experience.

[Sean Ryan]

How do you teach them both at the same time?

[Dale Stark]

So how we do it is. And we've done it different ways. Used to be my wife just did it all. And then what we've evolved to is my wife does like, she does all the like core curriculum. And while she's doing teaching one of the girls all teach the other one math and then we'll switch.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, okay.

[Dale Stark]

Yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Okay.

[Dale Stark]

And you can knock it out in a short amount of time. Like if you do like two hours of focused work every day. That is probably more than they're getting in eight hours at a Public school with all the waiting and the disruptive children and all the other issues. It's these little mini prisons, you know, creating factory workers or whatever. It's tailored for when it was derived. But, yeah, you just do that focused work for a couple hours. You do all kinds of other activities that are educational, like taking care of animals, taking care of a garden, you know, taking my girls flying. Like, so if they want to, you know, I'm an instructor. I can teach. They can be certified pilots before they get their driver's licenses.

[Sean Ryan]

I like how you disqualified yourself. I mean, I am an instructor.

[Dale Stark]

I can teach them. I know I can do it.

[Sean Ryan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dale Stark]

So, like, former. I can teach them how to fly Cessna. But, yeah, so you're like, you can. You have the core curriculum, which is a classical education, which is, like, what you think of what you thought every student was learning, like, the classics and basic math, like, sentence structure. All this stuff is, like, what you're actually working on. And then outside of that is just like, what are their interests? Like, you know, singing lessons, piano lessons, swimming. All that stuff is just. That could be considered school, but it's just kind of extracurricular stuff.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, I want to teach my kid how to run a business, you know, and, like, both of my kids, like, I can't wait. I don't want to skip any steps. But, I mean, it's. It seems to me that you can make homeschool whatever you want it to.

[Dale Stark]

Be and think about all the experiences you have in your life. Like, you were a Navy seal, you know, all the other things you did after that, started a business from the ground up. All these. This knowledge and all these lessons learned, all the mistakes you made that you wish you could have avoided. And I just had this epiphany. It was like, if you don't take the time to communicate that to your children, they're not going to learn it through osmosis. Yeah, they're not going to learn it magically. Like, it just. You need to take your time and spend that time with them and teach them. And it's like when we're out feeding animals every morning, we're just talking about life, you know, like, and what they're going through and, you know, who they're fighting with and who's bugging them and who, you know, whatever it may be. And it's an opportunity just to bond with them, you know, So I just had this epiphany at the end of my career, because we don't talk about This a lot, but a military career, you know, people always thank me for my service or thank you for your service. And it's like I had a great time, I did exactly what I wanted. Like I had so much fun. Thank my wife. Like the family is the one who I think sacrifices the most for our high speed careers. And I just had this epiphany. I'm like, they're not going to know about anything I did or care if we don't have a relationship. And so how you build a relationship is you are deliberate about it and you spend time with them and then you can teach them the things that you've learned in your life. But if you fail to do that, don't be surprised when you lose that bond. And I mean, we've all seen it a million times, you know, and then off they go into the world without that anchor.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, you know, that's very true. Is there anything we should cover that I haven't touched?

[Dale Stark]

No, I think we hammered it all.

[Sean Ryan]

I do have one more question. It has to do with your wife, but you know, being out there raising and growing your own food, raising and growing two little girls, homeschooling them all that land to take care of. How do you find time to get on a date with just your wife? Well, does that happen?

[Dale Stark]

Yeah. So thankfully we've got parents that live there and so they're so great. You know, as they get into their, you know, 70s, they just want to spend as much time as possible with those little girls. So they go over there once a week and allows us to get a date. So we do. You just have to prioritize it. And if you have a farm in which you'll find out if you, if you do this like the work never ends. Like you could, you could work on it 24 7, you could have a whole crew and the work would never get done because it's unending. So what I decided was like, where's good enough? And then I'm going to schedule work. You know, there's things you have to do like feed the animals and stuff like that. But that's not that big of a deal. It's just a morning routine, you know, and then you just have to decide how much time you want to invest into additional projects. And so you're like, okay, I'm gonna work out in this field X amount of hours today and then I'm gonna be done at four and then you just stick to it. So you just have to understand that the work will never be done. Do what you can and then move on with your life.

[Sean Ryan]

Sounds like a business, but thank you for that advice. And I know I'm gonna wind up doing that at some point in time, hopefully sooner than later, but. Well, Dale, man, it was. I'm so glad we met, and it was an honor to interview you and get your life story and your experience as a pilot in combat. And I know you. You're. You're. You're coming out with a website and you're selling beef, and so all of that will be linked below. But, man, just. God bless you, and I just wish you and your family the best.

[Dale Stark]

Thanks for having me. It was awesome.

[Sean Ryan]

Hey, it's Rich Eisen here. Join me and my compadre Chris Brockman every Monday on the Overreaction Monday podcast. Rich Jameis has taken the Browns to the playoffs.

[Dale Stark]

Dude, why can't they win seven, eight games to finish the year? Why not? I'm not saying that it's no why.

[Sean Ryan]

Not, but this is a definitive statement that's clearly an overreaction and is perfect fodder for a show like this one. I appreciate you coming out of the gate hot come react or overreact with us. Overreaction Monday. Wherever you listen, it's game over over, man.