Shawn Ryan Show Episode #164: Mike Grover - How Hacking Tools Are Changing Cyber Warfare

Release Date: January 29, 2025

Introduction

In episode #164 of the "Shawn Ryan Show," host Shawn Ryan welcomes cybersecurity expert and entrepreneur Mike Grover. With a rich background as a hacker, Red teamer, security researcher, and educator, Grover delves into the evolving landscape of cyber warfare, focusing on innovative hacking tools like the OMG Cable and the implications of hardware implants in modern cybersecurity.

Guest Background

Shawn Ryan initiates the conversation by highlighting Mike Grover's multifaceted career:

"Mike Grover, AKA mg. You're a hacker, Red teamer, entrepreneur, artist, security researcher and educator... The most well known hardware design is the OMG cable, a malicious USB cable."
(01:23)

Mike Grover responds by recounting his journey from a help desk technician to a cybersecurity innovator, emphasizing his passion for understanding both technical and human aspects of security.

Hacking Techniques and Red Team Operations

Red Teaming Explained

Grover differentiates Red Team operations from traditional penetration testing:

"Red teaming... is repeating exactly the entire chain. It's often called a kill chain, where you're connecting all of these different vulnerabilities to go from completely outside to completely... to the crown jewels."
(12:19)

He elaborates on how Red Teaming not only identifies vulnerabilities but also tests an organization's response to sophisticated attacks, akin to being "punched in the face" (13:46).

Common Hacker Tricks

When asked about simple tricks hackers use:

"Just ask them, ask them for access granted... you pretend to be somebody you're not. Like, I'm your IT department... at that point you've got their password."
(04:19)

Grover underscores the prevalence and effectiveness of social engineering in compromising security.

Evolution of Hacking Tools

From Exploding USBs to the OMG Cable

Grover shares his early experiments with hardware hacks, including an exploding USB drive designed as a prank:

"When you plug the cable in, it does the keystrokes automatically to open Chrome, login, and execute commands... It's a way to inject malware via keystrokes."
(116:19)

This led to the development of the OMG Cable—a covert USB cable capable of remote access and keystroke injection without raising immediate suspicion.

Notable Innovations

Grover discusses the challenges and breakthroughs in miniaturizing components for the OMG Cable:

"It was $100 drill press at the time. You just do like cross drilling through all different directions... Every time I want to do a run of an A layer PCB, six layer PCB is a minimum $1,000."
(97:28)

He highlights the meticulous engineering required to embed advanced functionalities into seemingly innocuous hardware.

Hardware Implants and Cyber Warfare

Capabilities and Uses

Grover delves into the functionalities of hardware implants like the OMG Cable:

"When you plug it into a computer, it's primarily targeting laptops and desktops. It emulates a keyboard and types really fast... It's designed to infiltrate secure environments without detection."
(112:12)

He explains how such tools can bypass traditional security measures by masquerading as everyday peripherals, facilitating unauthorized access and data exfiltration.

Government and Corporate Implications

Discussing the potential misuse of hardware implants, Grover raises concerns about national security:

"If you're thinking about, like real politics and participating, the creation is amazing to me... It's hard to revoke them."
(80:48)

He reflects on historical instances like the Israeli pager bombings and the Stuxnet virus, illustrating the profound impact of hardware-based cyber attacks.

Building and Scaling a Cybersecurity Business

Manufacturing Challenges

Grover outlines the complexities of producing sophisticated hacking tools:

"I was throwing away 50% of what I made... Spent a lot of time playing with that... Getting the precision right was crucial."
(100:55)

He emphasizes the necessity of outsourcing manufacturing to scale production while maintaining quality and reliability.

Collaborations and Team Dynamics

Highlighting his collaboration with Hak5, Grover discusses the importance of partnerships in expanding reach and enhancing product capabilities:

"Hak5 was amazing. They're like, let me just kind of show you the ropes... All of my products are available on Hak5."
(151:20)

His team comprises diverse experts, including retired military personnel and individuals with unique skills, fostering innovation and resilience.

Security Concerns and Ethical Considerations

Abuse Potential and Safeguards

Grover acknowledges the dual-use nature of his creations:

"There's a lot of creativity involved... I want to make sure it's used for securing environments, not for malicious purposes."
(132:01)

He implements features like geofencing and self-destruct mechanisms to mitigate misuse, ensuring tools remain within ethical boundaries.

Privacy and Surveillance

Addressing broader security implications, Grover discusses the balance between technological advancement and privacy:

"If nobody's got privacy, it changes society in ways that aren't very good... Humans have been what on this planet for some say 300,000 years."
(85:57)

He advocates for responsible innovation to preserve individual freedoms amidst escalating cyber threats.

Future Endeavors and Closing Thoughts

As the interview concludes, Grover shares his vision for the future:

"I don't know yet. I'm just gonna... like hanging out with my kids, spending more time with them while I got time."
(143:37)

He contemplates further innovations in cybersecurity tools and maintaining a balance between personal life and business growth.

Final Remarks

Shawn Ryan wraps up the episode by commending Grover's contributions to cybersecurity and his innovative spirit, expressing anticipation for his future projects.

"You are a super sharp, fascinating individual, and what an amazing conversation."
(154:19)

Key Takeaways

• Red Teaming goes beyond traditional pen testing by simulating end-to-end cyber attacks, assessing not just vulnerabilities but organizational responses.

• Hardware Implants like the OMG Cable represent a significant shift in cyber warfare, enabling covert access and control over target systems.

• Ethical Innovation is crucial in developing cybersecurity tools, with safeguards implemented to prevent misuse and ensure they enhance rather than compromise security.

• Collaboration and Scalability are essential for growing a cybersecurity business, requiring strategic partnerships and efficient manufacturing processes.

• Privacy and Security must be balanced to protect individual freedoms while advancing technological capabilities to counter evolving cyber threats.

Notable Quotes

• Mike Grover on Red Teaming:

  "Red taming is going to be repeating exactly the entire chain. It's often called a kill chain, where you're connecting all of these different vulnerabilities to go from completely outside to completely... to the crown jewels."
  (12:19)

• Mike Grover on Social Engineering:

  "Just ask them, ask them for access granted... you pretend to be somebody you're not. Like, I'm your IT department... at that point you've got their password."
  (04:19)

• Mike Grover on the OMG Cable:

  "When you plug it into a computer, it's primarily targeting laptops and desktops. It emulates a keyboard and types really fast... It's designed to infiltrate secure environments without detection."
  (112:12)

• Shawn Ryan on Mike Grover:

  "You are a super sharp, fascinating individual, and what an amazing conversation."
  (154:19)

Conclusion

Episode #164 of the "Shawn Ryan Show" offers an in-depth exploration of the intersection between innovative hacking tools and modern cyber warfare. Mike Grover's insights into Red Team operations, hardware implants, and the ethical considerations of cybersecurity innovation provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the evolving threats and defenses in the digital age. This episode underscores the importance of staying ahead in cybersecurity through creativity, collaboration, and responsible innovation.