Shawn Ryan Show #231 — Gerard Barron: CIA Project Azorian & Deep Sea Mining That Could Change the World

Date: August 28, 2025
Host: Shawn Ryan
Guest: Gerard Barron, Chairman & CEO of The Metals Company

Episode Overview

In this episode, Shawn Ryan sits down with Gerard Barron to discuss the geopolitical, environmental, and technological story behind deep sea mining—a burgeoning industry that could redefine global access to critical minerals. They trace Barron's entrepreneurial journey from the Australian outback to the cutting edges (and abysses) of mining innovation, uncovering how deep sea nodules could secure the future of American industry, jobs, and national security, while sidestepping the environmental cost of traditional land-based extraction. Along the way, the episode delves into the infamous CIA Project Azorian, China’s dominance of mineral supply chains, the obstacles posed by activism and international treaties, and the practical nuts and bolts of mining the ocean at 4,000+ meters deep.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gerard Barron's Origin Story & Early Mining Ventures

• [01:51-05:05]
  • Grew up on a Queensland dairy farm, built companies in media, tech, and eventually resources.
  • Early investor in Nautilus Minerals, which targeted seafloor massive sulfide deposits (focused on copper and gold).
  • Nautilus eventually collapsed after Barron's exit; taught him scale and location are everything, shaping his next venture.

“We started this company [The Metals Company] in 2011...here we are, 2025, what I believe to be the final stretch before the industry becomes big and commercial.” — Gerard Barron [08:52]

2. Introduction to Deep Sea Nodules & Critical Minerals

• [11:50-14:26]
  • 70% of planet’s surface is ocean, yet metals like nickel, copper, cobalt, and manganese—vital for batteries, military, and industry—are almost entirely mined on land.
  • “Polymetallic nodules” on the seafloor present an enormous resource: billions of tons of high-grade metals in a single zone (Clarion-Clipperton, Pacific).

“In this one little deposit...70% of the known reserves of nickel and cobalt and manganese sit in the form of these polymetallic nodules. They literally just sit on the sea floor.” — Barron [12:45]

3. The CIA “Cover Story”: Project Azorian & the Birth of Deep Sea Mining

• [14:26-19:25]
  • Deep sea mining research in the 1970s was triggered by the CIA’s operation to recover a sunken Soviet sub—mining was the cover story.
  • Hughes Glomar Explorer, funded by the CIA, set off a global rush; eventually stalled by UN treaty efforts.
  • The U.S. led initially, but opted out of UNCLOS, ceding regulatory ground.

“The CIA went ahead and started to plan how they could recover this... they said, ‘Well, we need to use the recovery of these polymetallic nodules as the cover story’.” — Barron [14:38]

4. What Makes Deep Sea Nodules a Game Changer

• [19:25-24:44]
  • Nodules are 33% metal by weight, practically all turned into product versus fractional “ore grades” on land.
  • Minimizes waste, environmental impact relative to tearing up rainforests for nickel (“rainforest nickel”)—often managed by China, devastating ecosystems.

“On land... average grade of copper mined was about 0.6 of 1%. Whereas we lift these up, take them to shore, process them, and we turn it all into salable material.” — Barron [19:53]

5. China’s Resource Strategy and America’s Wake-Up Call

• [24:44-37:09]
  • China controls 70%+ of global nickel, much of the processing for copper, cobalt, and manganese.
  • U.S. has let primary industries atrophy; 20,000 manufacturing companies have vanished since 2002.
  • Only with political changes (Trump Era) did the U.S. recognize the urgency and create permitting pathways.

“When China sets its mind on things, they become very, very impactful and successful. And... this industry almost went that way as well, man. And it was only the election of President Trump that provided a pathway to us rescuing it.” — Barron [24:38]

6. Environmental & Geopolitical Stakes—Driving Deep Sea Mining’s Acceptance

• [43:08-47:58]
  • The abyssal plains: half of Earth’s surface, minimal life, making them ideal for resource extraction vs. biodiverse rainforests.
  • Years and hundreds of millions spent on environmental research; strong case that deep sea nodules have much less impact than terrestrial mines.
  • Aspirational shift toward a future where all metals are recycled—“metals as a service”—but the metal stock isn’t currently large enough.

“We should be carrying out extractive industries in parts of the planet with the least life, not the most life... The abyssal plains... are the perfect thing.” — Barron [45:19]

7. NGO Pushback, International Treaties, and the New Regulatory Landscape

• [69:33-79:25]
  • International Seabed Authority, driven by the U.N., regulates access—except the U.S., who opted out, and now finds an advantage.
  • EU/France flip-flop: Once pro-mining, now restricted by Green Party coalition demands and NGO pressure.
  • NGOs (e.g., Greenpeace, WWF) described as aggressive, targeting companies and governments to slow or halt progress.
  • Blockages unintentionally empower China, who lags but is catching up.

“These NGOs, they are absolute bullies… that’s how they overtook some of these countries.” — Barron [70:40]

“America went, ‘Nah, we're not going to do that’ [join the treaty]... Oh my goodness, how insightful they were.” — Barron [69:42]

8. The Mechanics: How Deep Sea Mining Actually Works

• [62:33-68:38]
  • Robots (6m–15m wide, 90+ tons) crawl the seafloor, jetting nodules into hoppers, sending them up “big straws” to the surface ship (the "Hidden Gem").
  • Nodules are present on the surface, not buried; annual recovery targeted at 3 million tons per vessel.

“We send a robot down… it crawls along and fires a jet of water at these nodules… we then move the nodule into the vertical transport system and pump it up to the boat. 4,200 meters.” — Barron [63:15]

9. U.S. Reindustrialization, National Security, and the "Trump Doctrine"

• [83:51-97:07]
  • Decline in U.S. manufacturing and shipbuilding; China dominates, especially in shipbuilding and metals.
  • National defense tied directly to reliable domestic supply of metals: for shipyards, batteries, superalloys, and electronics.
  • U.S. is seeing job growth and GDP linked to reindustrialization—enabled by deep sea mining; automation and new industrial processes will drive efficiency.

"If you can't build a ton of steel without manganese... and the fact that we import 100% puts you very vulnerable." — Barron [84:37]

“It's about GDP growth as well. That GDP leads to more industries around it… a reliable, affordable supply of these critical minerals is the beginning of a great era, I believe, for the United States.” — Barron [102:21]

10. Future Vision: Recycling, Circularity, and U.S. as Metal Exporter

• [48:00-54:45]
  • Barron foresees a transition: mining nodules today, but moving toward comprehensive recycling (“metals as a service”) as metal stock in society builds.
  • U.S. poised not only to replace imports but to become a major global supplier and exporter of critical minerals.

“Eventually, recycled material will have a growing share… but at the moment there are not enough metals in the system.” — Barron [49:53]

11. Investment & The Metals Company’s Role

• [109:31-110:48]
  • The Metals Company (TMC) is public, listed on the NASDAQ, ticker “TMC.”
  • Barron notes resilience and loyalty among shareholders, expects TMC to be foundational to the new American industrial era.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On CIA & Deep Sea Mining’s Origin:
  “It has nothing to do with mining, but it was a great cover story.” — Barron [14:33]
• On Strategic Mistake:
  “Decades America has been outsourcing mining and processing and refining to other parts of the world, particularly China.” — Barron [21:09]
• On China’s Strategy:
  “They become very, very impactful and successful. And in this case that's what they've done… this industry almost went that way as well, man.” — Barron [24:26]
• On Environmental Approach:
  “I mean, I've always deemed myself an environmentalist… but at the end of the day, geopolitics are pretty important because we've got trading partners who've said they'll turn off supply if they choose to.” — Barron [48:00]
• On U.S. Industrial Policy:
  “The trend of this administration does... putting in long term strategic fixes.” — Barron [86:21]
• On the Future:
  “I hope in decades to come, we will not be in the business of picking up rocks. We'll be in the business of purely recycling the metals.” — Barron [50:41]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------|------------| | Gerard Barron’s background | 01:51–05:05| | Deep Sea Nodules & Significance | 11:50–14:26| | CIA Project Azorian Story | 14:26–19:25| | Why Deep Sea Nodules Stand Out | 19:25–24:44| | China’s Leverage/Market Dominance | 24:44–37:09| | Environmental Impacts & Strategy | 43:08–47:58| | Regulatory/NGO/Global Politics | 69:33–79:25| | Mining Process: Technical Details | 62:33–68:38| | National Security/Defense Matters | 83:51–97:07| | The Vision: Recycling & Export | 48:00–54:45| | Investment Opportunity (TMC) | 109:31–110:48|

Episode Tone

Candid, frank, and at times irreverently humorous. Both Barron and Ryan are direct, critical of policy and bureaucracy, but optimistic about the potential for deep sea mining to change the global resource balance—and America’s future.

Summary Takeaway

This episode pulls back the curtain on the shadowy history and enormous potential of deep sea mining—an industry poised to reverse America’s industrial and economic decline, secure national security, and do so at a fraction of the environmental cost of current practices. Gerard Barron’s blend of entrepreneurial grit, environmental concern, and geopolitical strategy makes this not only a story about rocks on the ocean floor, but about who owns the future.