Shawn Ryan Show - Episode #238: Sriram Krishnan (Senior White House Policy Advisor for AI)
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Shawn Ryan
Guest: Sriram Krishnan
Episode Overview
In this dynamic and deeply insightful episode, former Navy SEAL and CIA contractor Shawn Ryan sits down with Sriram Krishnan, Senior White House Policy Advisor for AI and renowned Silicon Valley technologist. Their wide-ranging conversation explores Sriram’s journey from humble beginnings in India to shaping U.S. AI policy at the highest levels. The discussion focuses on the realities and consequences of artificial intelligence, the U.S.-China AI race, the dangers of ideology in AI, the future of open source, and the fundamental importance of American innovation and opportunity. The episode also offers memorable stories of pro wrestling, mentorship, family values, and a behind-the-scenes look at 21st-century tech leadership.
Main Themes and Purposes
- Demystifying AI: Separating hype, doom, and reality.
- The U.S.-China AI race: What is at stake for the country and the world.
- Sriram’s personal journey: From Chennai to the White House—an “American Dream” story.
- The critical fight against ideology ("woke AI") and for open-source tools in AI models.
- How government, innovators, and entrepreneurs can ensure AI benefits all Americans.
- The intersecting worlds of tech, policy, entrepreneurship, and the unique pressures of leadership.
Key Discussion Points
1. Sriram’s Backstory and the American Dream (01:10–05:37, 32:07–46:55)
- Raised in Chennai, India, lower-middle class—strong family values, emphasis on education.
- “My whole story exists because my dad took a big bet on me, buying a computer with a year’s salary.” (38:32)
- Taught himself to code; wrote code late at night on dial-up internet; met future wife Aarthi through online coding circles.
- Breakthrough came when a Microsoft exec discovered his blog post, leading to his first job in the US.
- Reflects on parents’ sacrifices and the responsibility to honor them through achievement and service.
2. Career Journey in Tech (22:17–73:59)
- Helped build early Microsoft cloud products; cultural shock adjusting to the U.S. but found mastery through expertise.
- Significant product leadership at Facebook—built ad ecosystem; learned from and about greatness (“When you know what greatness looks like…” 91:01).
- Discussed mentorship, taking bets on talent, and the crucial role of empowering the next generation.
3. Social Media – Power, Politics, and Censorship (110:16–128:35)
- Worked at Twitter and saw firsthand the power of algorithms to shape public discourse and the dangers of centralized censorship and “nudged” political narratives.
- “I became convinced that centralized social media platforms are not good for all of us… It taught me the absolute power of social media and made me very distrustful of top-down centralized control.” (122:51)
- Shared how the rise of "woke" ideology (“DEI virus”) and political activism inside Silicon Valley led many tech leaders to feel intimidated by their own employees and outside media pressure.
- Praised courage of leaders like Brian Armstrong (Coinbase) and Alex Wang (Scale AI) for defending mission-focused, meritocratic values.
4. Open Source, Crypto, and Investing (132:28–194:12)
- At Andreessen Horowitz (a16z): “You pick a person and that's the only person you work with… founders value loyalty.” (185:19)
- Described investing in and championing decentralized tech, especially in social media (e.g. Farcaster), to empower end-users and prevent lock-in and deplatforming.
- Advocated strongly for open-source AI and decentralized tech as core to American competitiveness and innovation.
5. Artificial Intelligence—Promise, Fear, and Policy (194:42–236:58)
The Scope and Power of AI
- AI’s recent leap comes from scientific breakthroughs—e.g., “Attention Is All You Need” (Google, 2017)—that enabled large language models to scale with more data and compute.
- Differentiates closed-source (ChatGPT, Gemini) and open-source AI models.
- “For the first time, we found a mechanism that just continues to scale and work… Transformers and attention are as historic as Einstein’s theory of relativity.” (197:57)
- Strongly opposes AI doom narratives (“doomers”): “I think fear fundamentally underestimates human ingenuity and our ability to harness technology.” (216:53)
Concerns about “Woke AI” and Ideological Capture
- Detailed how even open-source AI can be subtly or deliberately skewed through training data, post-training, or rule sets.
- Led an executive order, “Stopping Woke AI,” mandating federal AI to be truth-seeking, not ideological: “We just want no ideology in AI. We don’t want employees to put their thumb on the scale.” (141:03)
- “Sunlight is the best disinfectant. I am a transparency maximalist when it comes to technology.” (145:32)
Human Relationships with AI
- Acknowledged AI is already used for personal advice, therapy, companionship—and the risks of manipulation, privacy, or bad advice.
- “AI models can manipulate entire populations. That is at the heart of why we made that executive order happen.” (234:40)
- Warned of mental health risks—“AI has encouraged people down very bad paths,” and stressed the need for detection and safety protocols (237:42).
6. The U.S.-China AI Race and Policy Implications (239:27–284:40)
- Broke down the AI race into: energy/capacity, chip manufacturing, AI model capabilities, and global AI diffusion.
- Energy: China ahead in grid expansion and red-tape-free construction; U.S. catching up fast with new executive orders slashing red tape and investing in data centers and nuclear power (253:32–259:21).
- Chips: U.S. still ahead, but China catching up via innovation and new chip clusters; TSMC Arizona factory crucial but behind schedule (276:08).
- “One of the most important things we're trying to do is make American AI the default here and around the world.” (239:49)
- Models: China’s “DeepSeek” model shocked the West by demonstrating world-class open-source capabilities; major sputnik moment.
- Diffusion: If China dominates global adoption, American influence and values erode—an existential risk.
- Explains nuanced chip export policy—keeping “the latest and greatest” at home, but flooding global allies (not China) with competitive U.S. GPUs/models to prevent Chinese alternatives from gaining ground (259:52–272:42).
- On the future: “Imagine a world where every robot, every app, every business runs on Chinese models and chips. This is a nightmare scenario. We are not going to let that happen.” (280:30)
7. Practical Policy—What's Working Now (284:40–292:28)
- Open-source AI is now officially encouraged and prioritized at federal level; stopping state-by-state patchwork regulation; building national security consensus.
- Copyright and model training access framed as a national security issue, not just IP law.
- U.S. tech leaders (Apple, Meta, Scale AI) investing hundreds of billions in U.S. infrastructure following regulatory clarity from current administration.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
“My whole story exists because my dad took a big bet on me, buying a computer with a year’s salary.”
– Sriram Krishnan [38:32]
“Every single great entrepreneur is insanely fast… They work 24/7, they eat, sleep, and breathe this. There is a real sense of urgency.”
– Sriram Krishnan [187:51]
“I became convinced that centralized social media platforms are not good for all of us. It taught me the absolute power of social media and made me very distrustful of top-down centralized control.”
– Sriram Krishnan [122:51]
“We just want no ideology in AI… Sunlight is the best disinfectant. I am a transparency maximalist when it comes to technology.”
– Sriram Krishnan [141:03, 145:32]
“The whole 'doomer' narrative fundamentally underestimates human ingenuity and our ability to harness technology. We’ve always found a way.”
– Sriram Krishnan [216:53]
“Imagine a world where AI is everywhere, and it’s all powered by Chinese models and hardware. That’s a nightmare scenario. We’re not going to let that happen.”
– Sriram Krishnan [280:30]
“You control your own destiny… When you find what you’re interested in, I don’t believe there are limits. The sky is the limit.”
– Shawn Ryan [68:43]
Important Timestamps
- 01:10–05:37: Sriram’s backstory & Shawn’s introduction
- 32:07–46:55: Sriram’s family, education, meeting wife Aarthi, first U.S. breaks
- 73:59–83:19: Lessons from Microsoft and Facebook; mentorship and empowerment
- 110:16–128:35: Social media, censorship, and the power of centralized algorithms
- 141:01–153:27: “Woke AI,” ideology in tech, and new executive orders on AI transparency
- 194:42–236:58: AI science, dangers, doomers, realities, and current government actions
- 239:27–284:10: U.S.-China AI race breakdown, chip strategy, energy, open-source challenges
- 289:42–292:24: National action plan, recent White House tech/AI roundtables, policy directions
Episode Highlights – Lighter Moments
- Wrestling Gifts and Stories: Exchanged pro wrestling memorabilia and stories; Sriram described learning about American psychology and storytelling through wrestling (15:06–31:57).
- Family and Legacy: Both men shared emotional reflections on their parents and motivations—“I just wanted my dad to be proud of me” (49:57–60:26).
- Gummy Bears Taste Test: Sriram sampled American-made gummy bears as a gift from Shawn (“I have no shame, I want the gifts.” 10:19).
- Technical Deep Dives: Sriram gave the clearest, most relatable explanation to date about modern AI model architecture and why “transformers” changed everything (197:57).
Final Thoughts
Sriram Krishnan's journey embodies the American dream—from Chennai to the corridors of DC. His stewardship aims to fuse technical insight, transparency, and meritocracy with unwavering geopolitical pragmatism. The episode makes clear the AI race is not only about technology, but culture, national security, and the fundamental promise of opportunity. Krishnan insists that with the right values, deeds, and policies, America not only can win the AI race, but ensure AI uplifts every citizen.
Closing quote:
“For me, every day it’s: How do we make sure we’re winning against China, and make sure AI is working for every single American… We want to hear from everybody.”
– Sriram Krishnan [293:30]
For further reference, listeners are encouraged to read the White House AI Action Plan and revisit key moments in Sriram Krishnan's blog, as well as President Trump’s recent speeches on technology and innovation.