The Shawn Ryan Show – Episode 253

Guest: Chase Hughes

Title: Real MKUltra Documents, Alien Deception and Simulation Theory

Release Date: November 13, 2025

Episode Overview

In this captivating and candid conversation, host Shawn Ryan interviews Chase Hughes, a retired U.S. Navy chief, behavior profiling expert, bestselling author, and co-founder of The Behavior Panel on YouTube. Together, they explore the undercurrents of psychological operations (psyops)—how they shape society, foster division, and influence beliefs and identity. They delve into the mechanics of manipulation, the fate of institutional trust, secret government programs like MKUltra, alien narratives, simulation theory, and the role of technology and AI. Packed with memorable stories, scientific insights, and practical frameworks, this episode is an eye-opener for anyone questioning what (or who) is really pulling the strings in our information-saturated era.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Psyops and Digital Manipulation

• Algorithms & Isolation: Shawn describes modern algorithms as cages that reinforce our beliefs, noting the deep personalization and isolation this creates. Chase expands on how algorithms and psyops are narrative-driven methods to shape perception and behavior (02:18–03:26).
• Definition of a Psyop: According to Chase, a psyop is “narrative-driven control of perception with the aim of shaping behavior ... It’s more about identity than ideas.” (03:26)
• Collapse of Trust: Both discuss the historic low in public trust toward institutions and media, a result of apparent top-down manipulation and engineered division (04:09–05:04).

“It’s more about identity than ideas. And who you are.” – Chase Hughes (03:26)

2. Evolutionary Psychology & Social Media as Placebo

• Tribal Brains in a Modern World: Chase contextualizes human behavior via ancestral “tribe size” psychology—our brains are wired for social circles of ~150. Exceeding this capacity (modern cities, social media) triggers apathy, not connection (05:35–10:24).
• Placebo of Connection: Social media provides attention, not genuine connection, amplifying a global loneliness epidemic (10:26–12:17).
• FATE Model: Chase outlines the FATE model—Focus, Authority, Tribe, Emotion—as the four psychological levers for manipulation, drawing analogies with dog-training and social engineering (12:18–15:59).

“We are in a loneliness epidemic because what we’re getting is a placebo of social connection.” – Chase Hughes (10:26)

3. How Psyops Work: Principles & Execution

• Focus on Identity: Effective psyops don’t just target ideas; they rewire identity using incremental steps and “small agreements." Social commitment, as shown by Cialdini, makes manipulation easier (29:00–35:07).
• Perception Management: Manipulation begins with understanding an individual or a population’s needs (significance, acceptance, approval, etc.), then weaponizing corresponding insecurities (27:01–29:43).
• Case Study: Chase details experiments and real-world examples (e.g., Cialdini’s safe-driving sign experiment) demonstrating how small, identity-based cues can result in large behavioral shifts (30:06–35:07).

“If I can modify your perception, who you think you are, I have all your insecurities mapped out in a minute and a half.” – Chase Hughes (29:14)

4. Societal Division as a Psyop: The Mechanics of Us vs. Them

• Divide and Conquer: The duo discuss engineered tribalism along political, racial, and cultural axes. Social media algorithms and media reporting amplify division by showing extreme outgroup behavior, stoking outrage and reinforcing echo chambers (38:13–42:31).
• Maslow’s Hierarchy & Social Needs: Chase connects modern division to unmet psychological needs, noting how safety and belongingness influence the kinds of conflicts seen in advanced societies (44:42–46:53).
• Who Benefits from Division? While some suspect a global cabal, Chase suggests multifaceted causes—foreign actors, profit-driven corporations, and “just a byproduct” of systems designed for money and control (47:37–48:58).

"You have more in common with someone who voted for the other guy than the billionaire who is funding a lot of these ideas." – Chase Hughes (41:04)

5. Psyop Implementation, Signs, and Case Studies

• Execution Phases: Psyops begin with data collection—understanding target beliefs and social context in order to shift perception and engineer behavior. Chase shares examples from military and intelligence contexts (23:47–26:07).
• Signs of a Real Psyop: Chase lists clear signals, including:
  • Silencing dissenting opinions (20:25)
  • Making examples of dissenters to amplify tribal fear (21:16–23:21)
  • Manufacturing events that spike focus and emotion (“novelty”)
  • Use of authority figures and artificially inflated social proof (bot farms)
• FATE Model Applied: Regardless of context, manipulating focus, authority, tribe, and emotion remains fundamental (75:52–77:22).

"If an opinion has to be silenced for something else to flourish, you’re in a psyop, guaranteed." – Chase Hughes (20:25)

“Anything new generates focus.” – Chase Hughes (71:59)

6. Mainstream Media, Social Media, and Social Apathy

• Apocalyptic Algorithms: Exposure to constant violence and outrage on platforms like X/Twitter intensifies division, normalizes apathy, and triggers a “death of outrage”—it takes more shock to grab attention today (80:39–81:39).
• Normalization of Sociopathy: The endless highlighting of tribal violence breeds lack of empathy, especially in cities, creating atoms of social isolation and even celebration of public figure harm (85:31–86:42).
• Socialized, Minimized, Rationalized, Projected: Chase describes a four-step interrogation technique—socialize, minimize, rationalize, project—now deployed on populations via social media to normalize otherwise unthinkable behaviors (89:36–93:41).

7. Hypnosis, MKUltra, and Brainwashing

• Hypnosis Explained: Chase is a renowned hypnotist, discussing the neuroscience (GABA, homo vanillic acid), induction process, and powerful real-world applications (e.g., anaesthesia, behavioral change) (110:59–115:53).
• MKUltra & Government Experiments: He shares inside knowledge and documents on MKUltra and associated mind control programs, including “Manchurian Candidate” (alter ego assassination programming), Project Midnight Climax, and dissociative identity programming (118:47–126:59).
• Manchurian Candidate Methodology: Trauma, hypnosis, and suggestibility are used to implant alternate personalities and triggers, with trauma and expectation as keys (132:46–133:56).
• Realism & Danger: Chase stresses it’s not science fiction; brain “hacking” is relatively easy, and the majority of compliance comes from our wiring rather than advanced technique (135:03–135:36).

"It’s not hard ... If you could, without any trauma, any programming ... strangers will kill another stranger in 40 minutes, 67% ..." – Chase Hughes (135:08)

8. The Future: Artificial Intelligence, Deepfakes, and Trust Collapse

• AI as a Psyop Tool: Shawn and Chase discuss rapidly evolving AI—voice cloning, deepfakes, and video manipulation—and how these could devastate public trust, furthering an age of unreality (135:44–136:47).
• Hope in the Search for Real: Despite growing manipulation, Chase expects that a crisis of authenticity will push people to seek unfiltered, real human content and connections (137:12–138:14).

9. Simulation Theory, Psychedelics, and the Mysteries of Consciousness

• Is Reality Real? Deep conversation on the lack of scientific knowledge about consciousness, neural plasticity, and "simulation theory” as a plausible hypothesis—though not necessarily a computer-based one (144:05–149:56).
• Psychedelic Revelations: Both host and guest recount the power of psychedelics in deconstructing ego, dissolving division, and offering glimpses into consciousness beyond ordinary experience. Chase describes groundbreaking laser code experiments on DMT and research into IV DMT for explorations of consciousness (154:35–159:56).
• Language as a Parasite: Language, originally a transactional tool, is discussed as a simulation or even a kind of “parasite” that has shaped and restricted conscious communication (167:06–169:46).

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Nature of Psyops:
  “A psyop ... is narrative-driven control of perception with the aim of shaping behavior. More about identity than ideas.”
  — Chase Hughes (03:26)

• On Social Media Loneliness:
  "We are in a loneliness epidemic because what we're getting is a placebo of social connection."
  — Chase Hughes (10:26)

• On Manipulation Techniques:
  “If an opinion has to be silenced for another idea to flourish, you're in a psyop, guaranteed.”
  — Chase Hughes (20:25)

• On Society’s Division:
  “You have more in common with someone who voted for the other guy than the billionaire who is funding a lot of these ideas ... stand in line at Walmart—you're not slapping each other in the face.”
  — Chase Hughes (41:04)

• On MKUltra:
  “The [CIA] discovered a way to create a Manchurian candidate ... I have access to the documents that survived the destruction order ... it’s not hard to do. You don’t need a bunch of advanced training.”
  — Chase Hughes (120:55–125:43)

• On Hypnosis:
  “Hypnosis is just a cool thing that we go into naturally. We’re trance machines ... our brains are hyperplastic, hyper suggestible.”
  — Chase Hughes (110:59–113:29)

• On Social Media Manipulation & Apathy:
  “We get exposed to so much content designed to inflame our mental state, that outrage starts dying and going away ... We need an extreme amount of novelty in order to spike that wave.”
  — Chase Hughes (80:39–81:39)

• On Simulation and Consciousness:
  “Do you think we’re in a simulation?”
  — Sean Ryan
  “I think this is a simulation. I don’t think it’s computer ... we’re using very limited perspective to make sense of something incomprehensible.”
  — Chase Hughes (144:07–144:26)

• On Psychedelics and Perception:
  “First time I saw [laser code on DMT], I wept ... the only thing you have coming out of that is like, what the hell did I just see?”
  — Chase Hughes (157:54–158:03)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Background (00:00–02:14)
• Definition & Purpose of Psyops (03:26–05:29)
• Tribal Psychology & Digital Loneliness (05:35–12:17)
• FATE Model, Manipulation, and Authority (12:17–21:10)
• Silencing, Fear, and Tribal Enforcement (21:10–23:33)
• Step-by-Step Psyop Planning (23:47–35:07)
• Division as Tactic—Case Studies (38:13–49:07)
• Algorithmic Outrage & Social Apathy (80:39–86:42)
• Four-Step Manipulation (Socialize, Minimize, Rationalize, Project) (89:36–93:52)
• Hypnosis, Neuroscience, MKUltra (110:59–126:59)
• Simulation Theory, Quantum Mechanics, and Consciousness (144:05–151:35)
• Psychedelics & Laser Code Phenomena (154:35–159:56)
• Conclusion & Reflections (169:46–end)

Memorable, Candid Exchanges

• On Being Manipulated:
  “I'm as vulnerable as anybody else. Knowing about this stuff helps ... but truly understanding that we are hardwired ... makes decisions about things way before we think we make decisions.”
  — Chase Hughes (15:59)

• On Waking Up:
  “I think a lot of people are waking up ... but I don't think the waking up period is done. I think they're going to go twice as hard ... within the next year.”
  — Chase Hughes (57:37–58:43)

• On Manchurian Candidates:
  “A lot of the hard work is target selection ... The science is there and the science to hack the brain is only getting better. It's going to be a new world very soon.”
  — Chase Hughes (140:32)

• On AI and the Future:
  “AI is going to become so pervasive that all we're going to do is crave something real again.”
  — Chase Hughes (137:12)

Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in behavioral influence, cognitive warfare, and the fragility of human perception. With a balanced tone of skepticism, expertise, and hope, Shawn and Chase leave listeners equipped to spot the signs of psyops, question digital narratives, and seek authentic human connections.

For real-world frameworks, referenced documents, or the “FATE” and “FEAR” models, check out Chase’s book “Behavior Ops” and related links in the episode description.