← Shed and Shine
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- [00:00]
Gino Wickman
Imagine when you know you're wrong and you can laugh at being wrong and you're willing to be wrong. So, like, humility is the ability to be wrong.
- [00:23]
Rob Dubay
Hello, everyone. My name is Rob Dubay, and I am here with Gino Wickman. Gino, so great to see you today.
- [00:30]
Gino Wickman
You as well, my friend.
- [00:32]
Rob Dubay
All right, so here's what we're going to talk about today. Humility. Ooh. I think that's discipline. Number 10, be humble. Is that right?
- [00:40]
Gino Wickman
Something like that, yeah.
- [00:42]
Rob Dubay
So why is this coming up? Well, at our last true self mastermind, someone asked to the group, I'm questioning whether I'm truly humble. And most of the people in our mastermind, I have to say, are pretty damn humble, that's for sure. So we ended up having a really interesting conversation about it. So something else came up where one member said they liked being recognized. And then they were asking, like, is that pride that's sneaking in and is that humility? So I remember one thing I shared with them was that if you're doing something in order to be recognized, then there's probably a lack of humility. But if your intent is pure, if you're serving, if you're creating, and especially if you're leading from your true self and recognition comes in, then that's humility. And enjoy it. Enjoy the recognition, but do your best to not have it inflate your ego or define your worth. So why is humility so confusing for people? So, I don't know. Let's just have a discussion about it, see where it goes. So what's coming up for you?
- [01:48]
Gino Wickman
So there's a few things coming up. First, when I think about being humble, a couple almost like examples of when you do this, you're probably being humble. Okay. So the first one that came up is if you're able to laugh at yourself. Okay, so, you know, driven people, you know, we're typically type A. We're out there, we're well known out in front. And so sometimes we create a facade, and we're not really good at laughing at ourselves, you know, because the facade doesn't allow for that. And so what I've learned recently, so this one is, you know, 6 to 12 months old. But when I'm able to just laugh at myself, that, to me, is like a litmus test of humility. And when I can't laugh at myself, so for some reason, I'm trying to protect myself or, you know, I didn't find it that funny. That's the other side of it. And that's kind of arrogance creeping in. I hope that makes sense. And I say a couple other things. The other thing is the ability to laugh in a debate, an argument, a passionate discussion where, I mean, you're literally vehemently disagreeing with each other. And I think about friends, family, my spouse, I mean, the whole gamut. And what I'm realizing more and more is that I'm able to laugh and smile in that. And there's this. About five years ago, there was this great quote on a beer bottle, and it said, don't you hate the moment in an argument when you realize you're wrong? So here you are in this fierce debate. And so that made me laugh that hard when I saw it. And so to keep pulling this thread. So just imagine that ability. But now imagine when you know you're wrong and you can laugh at being wrong and you're willing to be wrong. So, like, humility is the ability to be wrong. And so I just think about myself, and I'm just becoming more and more comfortable being wrong. I mean, it's like I kind of. I'm not gonna say I love it, but it just doesn't bother me. And so you can, you know, follow that thread. The ability to laugh at it, the ability to laugh at yourself, the ability to laugh in a debate, the ability to be wrong. That's all humility. So that's kind of the first thing that's coming up in my mind. I'll throw it back to you.
- [04:19]
Rob Dubay
Yeah. You know, one of the things I was thinking about was people with strong personalities. So you talked about just a moment ago, people being out front, you know, the facade. Some people can really command a room, and those in that room can sometimes perceive that as somebody who has a lack of humility. Is that true to you?
- [04:46]
Gino Wickman
Oh, man, what a great question. Well, that was the point I made about, you know, being out in front. So, you know, I'm reminded of the time. And I may have shared this many episodes ago, but it's so appropriate here now because of how different I react to this. I reminded of the time I had a hole in my sweater right here on my elbow. And I didn't know. There's no way to see that, you know, on the. On the sweater. And so I'm in a session with the leadership team, and somebody was just bold enough to say, hey, you know, you have a hole in your sweater. And I'm like, oh, my God, I see that. And I literally blushed. I turned red. And this goes back, you know, again, it's more like 10, maybe 10 years ago. But to be so embarrassed by something so simple. And it's like today, if that would have happened, I would just laugh at it, you know, so. So I don't know if that's indirectly answering your question, but ask it again and let's. Let's dig because there's. There's something.
- [05:43]
Rob Dubay
Oh, no. You know, I was thinking, like, you do a lot of speaking, and when you're on stage, you command a room, and there could be thousands of people in the room, and some percentage of those people might. And I've heard some of them. I know you're okay with me saying that. You know, I just don't. You know, when he's up there, it just seems like his ego or his this or that, you know, so there's something that they're perceiving that isn't true about you, because I know you to be humble.
- [06:10]
Gino Wickman
Yeah.
- [06:11]
Rob Dubay
Yeah. So, you know, and people, I do think, as part of. When we were in the Mastermind, I do believe that was something that some people were struggling with. Now, they may not be giving talks to thousands of people, but maybe to their teams, and they may be feeling that same kind of energy. Yeah. But I.
- [06:28]
Gino Wickman
What I wonder in that, you know, so 20 years ago, that would have bothered me so bad, and I would sit here and think about how do I come off as less arrogant on stage? Because that person said that when what I've learned is, you know, that's their stuff. I'm just being me. As long as I feel like I'm being real and authentic, then, you know, then. Then I think I'm doing my part. I can't control what everybody thinks. So I think the same thing applies to know, like you said that that driven person might just be in a meeting talking to eight people around a conference table. We can't control what they think of us.
- [07:07]
Rob Dubay
Yeah.
- [07:07]
Gino Wickman
And so that's judgment, and that's letting go of that. And there's, you know, just some pain from the past that's coming up when that happens. And that's what we just got to check ourselves. You know, are we staying humble? Are we staying grounded? And if. If, if I truly feel like I'm being real and authentic in myself.
- [07:25]
Rob Dubay
Yeah.
- [07:25]
Gino Wickman
I can't control how they react.
- [07:26]
Rob Dubay
Love that. You know, I think for people who are addressing groups on a smaller scale or even on a large scale, I think, you know, again, I was doing a lot of thinking about you during this particular one, and, you know, it's how you're using your gifts. You all have a gift out there, and how are you using it? Are you using it to try to seem like you're something that you're not? So you're not really using your gifts. Your gifts are when you're rooted in your presence and when you're not coming from ego and when you're lifting people up through your presence, which is what you do in your talks. People come away feeling energized. They've come away feeling connected.
- [08:12]
Gino Wickman
You know, I'll share something else you're prompting with that whole analogy of, you know, being in front of an audience. Two things. You know, first is I'm reminded of how obsessed I would get 10 and 20 and 30 years ago. Like, I could do a talk and I could get all nines and tens, and there'd be like 1 6, and the 6 would make me crazy. I mean, it would drive me bonkers. I would obsess about the six, which makes no sense. You know, there's 99 great ratings, and there's one point. 1.2 is. And this is the most important message that, you know, kind of gives me peace. And for everyone out there is. And. And so my dad, who is a hall of fame speaker in the National Speakers association, would talk about, you know, the audience, and he would talk about. In an audience, you know, 30% are there to be entertained, 30% are there to be motivated, 30% are there to learn something. And 10% you'll never please. In other words, you just can't please them. And so that's helpful. So you're not going to please them all, you know, and so with that, I think that helps calm us down and, you know, not take that blow and just. And keep ourselves humble and just know that, you know, you're going to take some lumps and you're not perfect. And so hopefully that helps.
- [09:22]
Rob Dubay
And I love that. I had that same advice from one of my mentors, by the way, Ari Weinsweig. He gave me that same advice many years ago. You know, we talked on the Mastermind about the feeling when you like to be recognized. Like, that feels good. And I think you may have even mentioned, I like to be recognized. I like that makes me feel. So how do you reconcile humility with that? I mean, when you're speaking to a team, a big group, whatever, and people are feeling your message, feeling it coming up to you, saying, that was so good. Thank you for that. You know, how do you use that energy so it doesn't turn into Like a head swelling.
- [10:06]
Gino Wickman
Yeah. Well, what I'm thinking about is, you know, first of all, what I shared in the Mastermind was not that I liked recognition. It was advice somebody gave me that I realized I liked recognition. And what she said to me is, she said, your ego likes recognition. She said, you like recognition and so why don't you accept that? You know, and then the idea, you know, she said, you accept that recognition. And then her way of saying it was just give it back to God, you know, then just be grateful for it. And so what that does for me and what that tells me is it's like validating. So it is nice, you know, to hear that compliment or whatever that accolade is, but I don't dwell on it. And when I really looked into that, it's. I think where it's dangerous is if you're feeding on it, if you need it, if you're seeking it, you know, that's where I think you're crossing a line. And so where I am in my life is I don't need it, I'm not looking for it. And so I just accept the compliment and then, you know, give it back to God and just say thank you, you know, for this gift. And so I don't know if that helps. And that explains it, but that's how I've learned to deal with it. But I do enjoy it. It's, it's. I do appreciate it. I do, I am grateful for it, you know, so, yeah, in there is kind of how I'm dealing with it.
- [11:28]
Rob Dubay
Did you ever have a time in your life where receiving that kind of feedback was hard for you?
- [11:34]
Gino Wickman
Oh, for sure, yeah. Oh, my goodness.
- [11:36]
Rob Dubay
So what would you do then?
- [11:38]
Gino Wickman
Well, let's think. Let me take myself all the way back to that.
- [11:42]
Rob Dubay
Well, as you think, like, I feel like I would deflect it all the time. And someone gave me advice once to just stop deflecting. You never accept praise. What's going on with you? I had to really take a deep dive into that.
- [11:55]
Gino Wickman
Yeah. And I, and I. So that's the two sides to it. When I think about, if I take myself back to 25 years ago when I started standing in front of audiences, it was dual sided because absolutely, I would say, oh, no, no, no. While at the same time, prior to that, I'm like, God, I hope they love this. I hope I hear great things. I hope so. You know, I. Back then, my ego really needed it. It needed that validation, you know, because of the insecurities. And so ironically, How. How badly I needed it to validate myself while at the same time going, oh, no, no, no, no. So, yeah, it's a very different world now where I accept it freely and I don't need it. You know, I don't need it now. I just put the message out there, and it either resonates or it doesn't. And I'm just trying to be the best version of myself when I deliver that message.
- [12:44]
Rob Dubay
Is there a. Like, at some of the conferences that I've been at, mainly at the eos, there's many people that want to talk to you after, and many just want to thank you for what you had to say. So when you get that coming in, do you have, like, a microsecond process to give it back to God, or is it. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just kind of curious.
- [13:07]
Gino Wickman
No, I think it comes back to what we've talked about several times in these episodes is just saying thank you. You know, so it's like it's. It's not always verbal.
- [13:14]
Rob Dubay
Yeah.
- [13:15]
Gino Wickman
You know, sometimes it's just going like this. Sometimes it's just various ways of just being grateful.
- [13:21]
Rob Dubay
Yeah.
- [13:22]
Gino Wickman
You know, thinking it, saying it, feeling it. So it's never this one way that I do it every single time.
- [13:29]
Rob Dubay
Someone taught me to put my hand on my heart.
- [13:30]
Gino Wickman
Yeah, it's beautiful.
- [13:32]
Rob Dubay
That works. You know, in the book Shine, one of the people that shared a story with us started to. Or he shared that he used the title, and I don't remember the exact title, but it was something like, you know, chief Fixer or something like that. And, you know, he felt in his role at the company as the. As the founder, as the owner, I can't remember if he was the visionary, that his job was to fix all the problems and, you know, where's humility playing there? And for somebody like that person who has since changed and is completely different, how does that person, you know, really start recognizing, like, there's lack of humility there? You think you're the person that can fix it all.
- [14:18]
Gino Wickman
Yeah. And furthermore, I don't know if you said it exactly this way, but what he said to all of his people, he says, when you have a problem, give it to me. Like. Like, he created a monster, so they're just all defaulting to him. So that's obviously what he needed at the time. And like you said, he's a different person now in terms of how he handles that. So, I mean, I think that's all ego when you're saying Give me all of your problems. And I don't think I have this perfect, concise, tangible answer for you. And so I'm going to give you a very vague one that I hope answers it. And let's dig if it's not clear, but it's that particular person in the place that they are in. As long as they are being their true, authentic selves, as long as they have delegated and elevated, you know, all $25 hour work and they've got people that are carrying their weight, responsible for their issues, the things that fall to that person will naturally fall to that person that they need to get involved in. And there's your answer, you know, so it's not this perfect, tangible. I'm kind of backing into it from a standpoint of as long as they're being their authentic self, then the right issues are going to come to them and the other issues are for everyone else.
- [15:23]
Rob Dubay
Do you think people that get into business are oftentimes not humble people and that they come in and they really want to be the, you know, the fixer, the person who can handle all the problems because there's actually something deeper going on, like they have something to prove?
- [15:40]
Gino Wickman
Well, I feel like you're crossing two thoughts and I'm having trouble correlating arrogance and humility to what I think is the bigger issue in that. And that is absolutely most driven entrepreneurs, business owners, visionaries, when they start the business, take responsibility for everything and they are the firefighters for everything. Whether that's humble or arrogant, I wouldn't attach that to that. As much as they feel like they need to be the heroes. And we can call that arrogance and we can call that not being humble. Because then what happens? At some point, the next five, 10, 20, 30 years, depending on when they learn this, you know, they realize that they can't be the firefighter for everything and they are burning out and they're becoming exhausted, which humbles them. So I'm just coming at it from a different direction. I would not apply, I would, you know, I would not say all business owners are arrogant when they start their first business. I just, I can't apply that theory to that. They're just, you know, full of piss and vinegar and want to solve every problem that comes up.
- [16:53]
Rob Dubay
Yeah, yeah. Last question on this. When you were coming up with Your list of 10 disciplines, which I think was a longer list than 10, was humble like a no brainer one? Be humble. A no brainer one for you. And then how did it end up being number 10 yeah.
- [17:12]
Gino Wickman
Yeah. Well, they are in a specific order. As best I could put them in an order. There's a couple that I could debate to my death. You know, I could have flipped, should have flipped, but it was. They were coin tosses. So I think there were a total of somewhere between 12 and 14. I think the number was 13. And humble and gratitude were the two that were battling for the number 10 position. And I chose humble because I believe gratitude is the root of humility. And if we practice gratitude, humility is a byproduct. So, again, going back and forth, I mean, that one was a coin toss. I mean, it could have been if the wind blew a different way. Gratitude, you know, be grateful would have been discipline, number 10. But again, I still in my heart, feel humility wins out. And so, again, gratitude is just simply the root of humility.
- [18:08]
Rob Dubay
Yeah. Good. Good. All right. Any last thoughts on humility?
- [18:12]
Gino Wickman
Yeah. You know, it's this thought I'm having, and I don't know who I'm talking to out there, but it's for someone out there listening, and it's where we kind of started. And that is people's reaction to you, which can sometimes hurt. And I'm speaking from experience, you know, and again, it's all about this. And again, that humility that I've learned, you know, kind of helps keep me on the ground and accepting that I can't please them all. You know, what I've learned is, you know, now that I'm relatively well known out there in the business world, and when I speak, I can't win. I can't win. And I. And it's like I tried so hard to win them all over, you know, and so it's like anywhere I go where there's multiple people, somebody's pissed off, you know, it's that old saying, never meet your heroes. You know, never meet your idols or something like that. So everybody has a preconceived notion of me, and, you know, I'm a pretty simple guy, and I am what I am. And so it's so freeing to just be me. And there's still pain. Even as I share this, there's still pain because I just. It drives me crazy why it has to be that way. But it is what it is. And so any of you out there that are becoming celebrities, you know, it's a blessing and a curse, you know, make sure you're tough enough to handle the fact that you are not going to please them all. They're not all going to like you. And that's just the nature of the beast.
- [19:47]
Rob Dubay
Yeah. And for those that aren't celebrities, like myself, you know, then you have a team, and it's going to be the same dynamic. Say you got 20 people, 30, 40, 50, 100, whatever. It's going to be the same thing. We kind of alluded to that earlier, but a fun exercise. You just made me think about it. I'm surprised I didn't put it in my notes. Is the humble, arrogant exercise, where on one end of the continuum, you write humble and then you draw a line, and then the other end it's arrogant, and then you ask people to draw a line where you're closest to and ask, like, five people closest to you in your life. And this is in the book Shine as well, if you want to reference it. And you get some pretty remarkable results. I've had so many people that. That I've coached or worked with who come back and were very surprised about the results, meaning they thought they were more humble than they were, for sure.
- [20:36]
Gino Wickman
And then the other thought I had to. With this point I'm making about as you become more well known and to your point, let's pretend you have 10 employees or 50 employees, or 100, or you're reaching audiences of 100 or thousands, whatever the number is. If my dad's math is right, you're not going to please 1 out of 10, okay? And so if you have 10 employees, 1 out of 10 ain't gonna like you so much all of a sudden. If you have a hundred, there's ten. If there's a thousand, there's a hundred. If it's a hundred thousand, if it's a million, there are a hundred thousand people that are gonna like you. So learn to get good at that. Learn to stay humble around that. So for what you know, that math is worth, that's a little bit of a lot.
- [21:16]
Rob Dubay
That's fun. All right, everyone, thank you as always for joining us, and we'll see you next time. In the meantime, stay focused and much love.
- [21:25]
Gino Wickman
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us, and please tune in for the next episode. Until then, we wish you all the best in freeing your true self. Stay focused and much love.