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Shiny New Clients!
Accidentally blowing up on Tiktok and the Storytelling strategies that made it happen (with Marsha Shandur)
00:20:49
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Shiny New Clients, the marketing podcast that helps you attract shiny new clients to your business. We'll talk about social media, what makes people buy, how to go viral, and marketing psychology all in 20 minutes or less. Whether you're a coach, a stylist, or a wedding planner, if you've got a service based business to sell, this is the show you need to fill your calendar. I'm Jenna Warner, your new marketing coach and this is Shiny New New clients. I'm going to be fully honest with you. We were gabbing before this episode and I hate to leave you out. So we're tapping record and we're just jumping right into it. This is Marcia Shander. Is that how you say it?
- [00:42]
B
That is how I say it.
- [00:44]
A
Beautiful. Because normally I would have asked, but we're starting this in a weird way. You blew up on TikTok. Tell us. She's a storyteller. She's a storyteller coach who works with corporate people. She talks about how to get sales from stories. We'll tell you all of that later. I need to know about how you resisted TikTok for so long and then I resisted it.
- [01:00]
B
I have to tell you. I have a flip phone. I have a flip phone and I have an iPhone that has no SIM card and it doesn't have an email app and it doesn't have any social media apps. When I use social media, I download the app and then I post and then I like scroll for three hours and then I delete the app. It doesn't know any of my passwords, so I have to type in all of my passwords. I use email on the browser and it doesn't know any of my passwords. And I have an app called OneSec O N E S e C Life Changer that literally every time I want to get into any of these apps, like the browser, any, any social media, even LinkedIn, I have to answer three questions of Russian vocabulary. And then I have to say why I'm going on the app. And then I have to say how long I'm going on it for. And it's not even typing in a number. You have to like scroll around this circle that shames you. And then every one minute, three minute, five minutes, it keeps putting a pop up. Do you still want to be in the app? And then after we get to the end of the time, it's like, do you still want to be on LinkedIn? And if the answer's yes, it's like, well, then give me three more questions of Russian Vocabulary. And yet, Jenna, and yet I'm still on it all the time.
- [02:03]
A
So you intentionally put all of these barriers in front of yourself so that you're not on your phone too much.
- [02:09]
B
So I'm not addicted to my phone because I can also only use my phone on WI fi, but I still. I find ways anyway. And so I was just like, TikTok seems like a nightmare. Like, I'd looked on it once on someone else's phone and, like, nearly just, like, died because I stopped eating or peeing because I was just scrolling TikTok forever. And then I was telling a friend of mine, Jeff Harry, Jeff Harry plays, who's kind of quite big on TikTok. And he was like, you gotta get on TikTok. I'm like, no, it's super addictive. And then I was telling him how I've been posting these videos on LinkedIn because I really like making video. I find it really easy. And so I've been posting these videos on LinkedIn. And each video, if I am lucky, gets two likes. But people who aren't liking or commenting, why not are seeing them? Because I was getting clients. Because some former client would get in touch, or some person I did a course with 13 years ago was like, oh, hey, I'm now head of H of HR at this company. Let's talk about. So I teach storytelling and how to write captivating presentations. So I was like, okay, I'll keep posting them. So I'm talking to Jeff Harry and I'm like, I'm actually using the TikTok app to edit because it's the best editing software. And he went, whoa, let me get this straight. You are drafting videos on TikTok, but you're not posting them? And I was like, I have zero followers. Why would I post them? He's like, just post them on TikTok. So I posted one and it went viral and got over a million views. And then I posted a few more that went viral. And Now I have 50, 53,000 followers on TikTok. The first video that went viral got, like something like a million, a hundred thousand views. That's when they stopped counting. I'm sure it's had more since then. It had like 200,000 comments or something ridiculous. Like, so many comments, so many likes, the same video. And it was a very linkediny kind of video. It was all about, like, negotiating a wage increase. And the same video on LinkedIn. Three likes, one comment. LinkedIn just doesn't love me. I'm like, me and LinkedIn are like a man in a 90s Rom com. And the woman where just like, she's just constantly being like, I'm not interested. And he's like, oh, but I think that you might be. I'm just like, LinkedIn, try this video, try this caption. LinkedIn, LinkedIn. I think you're gonna love this one. Nothing. But because. So I keep posting videos on LinkedIn and Instagram even though they don't get as much love. Instagram kind of feels like my living room. Like it's just me I'm posting work stuff on, but it's mostly just me, you know, I feel like I'm just playing with my friends. But I keep posting the videos on LinkedIn because I know that that's often where some of my corporate clients are. And I get enough love on TikTok. And what's interesting, I don't know if you found this with TikTok, but 53,000 followers, it's kind of meaningless in some ways. Like I posted a video last week that got 300 views and I knew it wasn't going to get a ton. You know, it wasn't an instructional. It was like me promoting something, but like it doesn't show all my stuff. That's kind of what I like about TikTok in a way, it's very democratic. Like it doesn't throw all my stuff.
- [05:01]
A
Let's break. Okay, A lot of what you're saying, there's reasons for this. So like, let's break. So firstly, I want to acknowledge that you were getting clients even though you weren't getting likes on LinkedIn. And let's remember that people are watching quietly. I like to tell everyone, you all have hot leads right now. You just don't know they're there. So remind yourself that they're there and post for them because they're sneaky, sneaky little creeps in there watching. Secondly, the big benefit of TikTok is it puts you in front of new people. So like you said, you're getting in front of new people and not so much those 50,000 also same. I have about 50,000 on TikTok as well. It's the exact same situation, but its power is in the for you page. I used to say we use TikTok for growth and Instagram for sales because Instagram is only now starting to get you in front of the amount of strangers that TikTok has always got you in front of. Like TikTok still wins, but on Instagram it's a lot of the same people you're gonna be able to nurture your connections with people because your hot leads are gonna see every single video versus TikTok is that tool to get in front of the masses. But maybe only once ever.
- [06:07]
B
And by the way, one of the ways I knew it was working was not only was I getting rando people I haven't been in touch with for years getting in contact to offer me potential work, but I was getting friends asking me to do to help them out for free. And it was like people where I'm like, how do you. You're like a parent at my kids school. You're like a guy I went on two dates with. How do you know what I do? And then I was like, oh, he's seen the videos. He's never liked or commented, but he's seen the videos.
- [06:33]
A
Yeah. And also something I think about is I have like so many guys in my phone who I went on a date with once in my 20s and I.
- [06:41]
B
Are they all called like Jim, Brown hair or even sweater guy? For sure.
- [06:46]
A
There's at least two guys I know I dated because I liked their sweaters. And then I got on the date and I was like, ah, that sweater got me again. Um, but. But I just learned TikTok shows your content to the people that are in your phone contacts and you have to go into your settings to turn that off.
- [07:02]
B
Yeah, so I have it turned off and it still does it because a friend of mine works at this magazine, a friend of mine works at McLean's. And TikTok keeps being like, Bae, bae, can I have your contacts? And I'm like, no, you cannot. And then it keeps being like, you really want to see something from McLean's though, don't you? And this friend is not on TikTok. It's like, but you love McLean's. Like, I really think you would be in to this mag magazine. Let me tell you about it. It's called McLean's. So sneaky.
- [07:30]
A
Do you want to tell us about the content of those videos that first took off? What were you talking about?
- [07:36]
B
I teach storytelling and how to write captivating presentations. But there's this other thing that I teach that's one of those kind of sell them what they need as opposed to give them what they want. Nobody ever asks me for this, but what often happens is I'll get on a consult and they'll be like, we need to learn about storytelling. We need to be better storytellers. And I'm like, no, you don't. Like, you can because what was happening was I was going into all these organizations and teaching them how to tell stories or working with people one on one and making them into great storytellers. And they were telling great stories that made zero difference. And so I realized if you don't do the foundational work that I used to do with like all my speaker clients, all my coach clients, the foundational work is who am I talking to? What is the problem that I'm helping them solve? Not the problem I know they have, but the one that they think they have. What is the desired outcome I'm helping deliver to them? Not the one that, like that I know that they need, but the one that they think they want. And, and then you use that to edit your stories. So I was running a workshop on that and you know how like we all have certain stories that we just really love to tell because they're fun to tell. So I had this story that I just would sometimes tell because it was like fun to tell. And then I told it in a workshop and everybody was like, oh my gosh, that's so helpful. And I was like, I can justify telling this single time. So the story, can I tell you the story?
- [08:57]
A
Oh, please.
- [08:57]
B
So, so where it comes up in the workshop is one of the other things that you want to think about. What, what are any objections or myths they might have? Like I'm always interested in that person who sat down the back of the room or you know, eyeing side, eyeing their phone, going with their arms crossed, going, this isn't going to work. This doesn't apply to me. This isn't going to work. But you know, it would. So I'm always like, what are they thinking? So we talk about addressing directions. Sorry, addressing objections, directly or indirectly. So directly would be to say, so these four promises at the beginning of my workshops, and one of the promises is now I know you've been told this workshop is super interactive. You don't need to worry. I'm never going to make you look stupid. I'm always going to be super clear about what I'm asking for. So that's a direct addressing. Like you're worried that you're going to look stupid. I am telling you you're not going to be indirect. Is that my very first promise always is you're going to learn at least one thing you don't already know. And the reason I say that is because in every single one of my in person workshops, either there is someone who has been forced to be there by their boss or there's someone who chose to come, but now they've heard it's interactive, and suddenly they're worried they're going to make a fool of themselves in front of everyone else. And so their response is to just hate me. And I understand this. I'm British. That's our thing. We're like, I'm going to hate you first, because then if you judge me and find me not good enough, it doesn't matter, because I already hate you. So they're hating me. And one of their internal monologues is often, I know all this already. Why am I wasting my time with this stuff? And so when I say, you're going to learn at least one thing you don't already know, they're like, challenge accepted. And now they're listening because they want to catch me out. I don't care why they're listening. They're listening anyway. So. So I talk about that in the workshop. And then I say. And it was just. It was a. It was a room. The room. When I first brought it up, it was mostly women. It was a nonprofit, like, women are non binary people. It was a nonprofit. And I was like, ooh, I need to tell them that they shouldn't always bring up the objections. So this story that I told them is when. So my first career is I was a radio DJ. I did that for 15 years. And. And I'm. I'm like, in pretty much my dream situation, I'm sitting in the back of this car in the French Alps, and I'm sitting with a. With a friend of mine who's the producer. And he goes, oh, yeah, we're getting paid a travel day. And I'm like, what? So this was like the cushiest thing I had ever done. My radio station were paying me, paying me every single weekend to go to the French Alps. And. And to get there, we had. We'd, like, go to the airport and hang around. I love airports. We'd fly on a plane. I love planes. Then we would have to drive for three, three hours through the mountains and streams of the French Alps. I love being a passenger so much. I don't even have a driving license. And I also can't drive, so it's good that I don't have one. And then we were staying in this hotel that had, like, heated toilet seats. It was so fancy. We were getting free skiing gear. And then the only work I had to do, work in inverted commas, was I had to do a live radio show, which I loved doing in front of a bunch of people. And then for half an hour of that show, a band were playing, and I would just have to sit, just sit and watch the band. And I was getting paid to do that. And the whole thing was being paid for by. Can I name the beer company? Maybe I can. You might say, cor blimey, what a great beer company. That's very light. Okay, anyway, that beer company, I don't know if you know, if you got that. So that beer company were paying, and they were paying to send out, me, my producer, all of the equipment for us to do a radio show, a band, all of their instruments, a dj, all of their equipment, plus radio listeners from two different radio stations. And they were also paying for the. Of being allowed to pay for all of this. And so when I have this conversation with my producer, I find out he's being paid a travel day, and I'm not. Now, what I would have done ordinarily was be like, well, sucks to be me. I'm not getting paid a travel day, but I should be grateful for doing this. However, I had just had a conversation with this incredible woman called Deborah Francis White, who now is famous for running this hugely successful podcast called the Guilty Feminist. But at the time, she was stand up, who I had just interviewed, and she was running a workshop for business women called how to Be a Charismatic Woman in a Man's World. And this was, you know, before we knew that gender was a construct. And so it was looking at, like, male brains and female brains. And she was talking about how, like, a male brain person, a man, might go into a meeting and be like, hey, I think we should open an office in France. What do you think? And. And a female brain person, a woman, might walk into the meeting and say, I think we should open an office in France. And I know that you're worried about this, this, and this, but actually, you don't have to be. And I know that you're worried that this and this might happen, but actually you don't have to be. And all she' is putting those worries inside her boss's head. So I just had this whole conversation with Deborah. So I call a meeting with my boss at the radio station, who, by the way, was the best boss I ever had. I loved him so much. And I go into this meeting and I want to go in and be like, hi, Andy, they're getting paid to travel there. I'm not. Is it okay? Can I actually. It's totally fine. Don't worry about it. I'm sorry. Don't worry. About it, but I don't. I go in and I say, hey, Andy, they're being paid a travel day. I'm not. That's not fair. And then I shut my mouth and he says, oh, you know, the thing is, Marsh, when we put together the budget with the beer company, we didn't actually budget for this. And I want to be like, oh, my bad. I'm sorry. But instead, I think about Deborah and I say, that's not fair. They're being paid a travel day. I'm not. He's like, okay, I'll look into it. And so I go back two weeks later, and by the way, I'm already doing the job. This is like halfway through the run, so it's not like I'm threatening them with anything. Um, so I go back in two weeks later. He says, marsh, I'm so sorry. We've tried to move the numbers around. We just can't find budget for this. At this point, every cell in my body, Jenna, wants to go, andy, I cannot believe I have put you through this inconvenience. I am so sorry. But instead, I channel Deborah Francis White and I say, andy, that is a day I'm missing out on work. I was very lazy. I never would have got work that day. But in theory, you know, I said, that is the day I'm missing out on work. That's not fair. He goes, goes, okay, I'll look into it. And then he comes back and he goes, okay, you can charge. So I was being paid two show fees per weekend because I was doing two shows. He goes, you can charge an extra show fee per weekend, which is a 50 pay increase. Not for being like an. A rude, obnoxious person. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on your podcast, but just for what I didn't say. So that's the story that I tell. And it's like a five minute video. This is not a 20 second use my audio, go viral kind of TikTok. But I put that on TikTok and it just blew up. And it was like maybe 70% people saying, oh, my gosh, this has helped me so much. And 30% people saying, yep, my experience, absolutely. Oh, and I also will say that I'm good at headlines because so I think I started by saying, I'm gonna tell you the best piece of advice I ever heard.
- [15:49]
A
Ah, yeah, Good. A hook. So good hook.
- [15:51]
B
So I hooked them in. But honestly, I didn't think about it too much after that. So then I was like, okay, I guess take TikTok likes me. And I have a friend called Spencer west who has 4 million followers on TikTok. So I immediately messaged him and was like, what do I do? And one of the things that he had told me is that one of the directions TikTok is moving towards is being more like a kind of YouTube style search engine. And so they like it when you teach. And I had actually I tried some other kind of cute videos and because it was the early days, everybody just loved me at the beginning. But I was finding, okay, the cute ones where I'm just like, oh, guys, I let me just have a little chat with you. We're not doing that well. But the ones where I was like, here's the biggest mistake you can make in storytelling. Here is the most important thing you need to know about storytelling. And then a few of those were going viral as well. And so then I've sort of been playing with that ever since. And then I started getting clients because people started getting in touch and. And then I was like, okay, if I'm getting clients and I was getting one on one clients, I have subsequently got corporate clients from it.
- [16:51]
A
But I was just gonna say you earlier when you said to me, because I know that my corporate clients aren't on TikTok, wanted to argue that because there's billions of people on TikTok. So they are.
- [17:00]
B
Some of them are totally. And so it has happened since. But at the beginning it was one on one clients. And I was like, okay, I'm not actually really selling storytelling, I'm selling presentations. So I need to be talking more about presentations. And definitely every time I make a video about storytelling, it's much more popular than when I make a video about presentations. But the quality of person who's engaging with my presentations video are much more my clients. And so now you know, and then I'm playing with different things and like ironically, the kind of storytelling that I would usually do, TikTok doesn't like that. For me, I see TikTok liking it for other people, but for me it's not a fan where I'm like hooking them in with the beginning of the story. And TikTok for me mostly likes me doing the like, teachy, teach, teach, teach. But I'm still putting my personality in there and putting stories in there and because that's who I am. And there's also certain things like I've really, I've talked a lot to Spencer about what he's doing and there's things like I know that if I did edit, edit, edit, and I recorded every line of the video in a different room of my house, I would, you know, and I tightened everything up, I would get way more success. But I also know my own capacities, and I know that if I do that, then the video will get made maybe in five years time, maybe never. Whereas if I just point and shoot and maybe I have like two or three runs at it, then done is better than perfect. And so.
- [18:16]
A
Well, a hundred percent. And in the way that I teach Instagram, it's the same. It's like, we need to know. Like, maybe I could tell you to edit it and make it wild and put lots of colors and stuff and smash edits and stuff. But if that's not realistic for you, then it's immediately not sustainable. Like, if you don't want to learn how to do it and you don't want to spend time, like, practicing it, which is totally understandable, that's not the route you're going to take because you're not going to stick to it anyway. So then you have to find ways to, like, like. Another example of that would be habit stacking. So if you. I always say, like, if you already have zoom calls on Wednesdays and your hair is clean, then make your, like, record your videos on Wednesdays because your hair's already clean. Like, habit stack. Like that.
- [18:54]
B
That. Love that. I love that. Yeah. And then, like, one of the tips that I did take from Spencer is posting every. He posts every day, Monday to Friday, he posts at the exact same time. I'm like, I do not have the capacity to do that. I did once ask him. I'm pretty sure it's okay to share this. I said, why don't you do Saturdays and Sundays? He said, because I would die. I would die if I had to do it every single day. Yeah. So I think, yeah, habit stacking, knowing. Knowing what your capacities are. And. And then. And then into that stuff, I put my presentation skills. So it's like, do we have a hook at the beginning? You know, are you using storytelling? I have a whole. We can go into this. But my whole theory on storytelling is that it's not about narrative beginning. When you're using storytelling for work or for persuasion, ethical persuasion, it's not about narrative beginning, middle and end. It's about describing moments and that you don't need because so many people are like, oh, I don't have any good stories. And what I always say is, if you have been alive and conscious, you have stories. Stories because it's not about the story that you tell, it's about the way that you tell it.
- [19:56]
A
Okay, I have an idea.
- [19:58]
B
Yes, go on.
- [20:00]
A
I feel like the. The thing about objections and. And the tips about tick tock and the tips about Instagram and everything, like, people are already. Already have ideas in their head. But if I end this episode now, they're gonna miss you. But my episodes are only 20 minutes long, so let's start a new one right now, and we'll do a double bill, and they're gonna be obsessed.
- [20:20]
B
I love it. I love it. Double bill. Oh, my God. I've got so much more to say to you all.
- [20:23]
A
Okay, so first, tell them where they can find you. And then we're gonna start the next one.
- [20:28]
B
I'm going to make a secret webpage for you, which will be. Yes, yes, Marcia, Marsha, like it sounds. M A R S H A dot com. Forward slash.
- [20:40]
A
Shiny new clients.
- [20:42]
B
Shiny new clients. Forward slash, shiny new clients. Okay, so yes, yes, marcia.com, forward slash, shiny new clients.
- [20:49]
A
Beautiful.