← Shiny New Clients!
Shiny New Clients!
The 4 types of buyers your sales copy must speak to (with Samantha Burmeister)
00:21:47
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Shiny New Clients, the marketing podcast that helps you attract shiny new clients to your business. We'll talk about social media, what makes people buy, how to go viral, and marketing psychology all in 20 minutes or less. Whether you're a coach, a stylist, or a wedding planner, if you've got a service based business to sell, this is the show you need to fill your calendar. I'm Jenna Warner, your new marketing coach. And this is Shiny New New Clients. All the words you write in your business that are designed to sell something are copy, C, O, P, Y. And you know why that is a stupid, stupid word? Because when you're a new entrepreneur and you've got this new business and you're trying to learn all the things about online business and online marketing and, and like marketing your own business, you can't Google copy. What are you supposed to Google? What does copy mean? Copy, copy, definition. None of it's going to get you there. You need someone to tell you. So if I'm that someone, here we go. Awesome. If someone else once told you what copy is and what that word means, let's just send a little thank you up into the ether for them, illuminating the language of entrepreneurship to the rest of us. All right, so today I have brought in a special guest, Samantha Burmeister of Nomad Copy, who's going to give us some tips on copy. Now, last time we had a copywriting episode, we had Laura Belgray. It was one of the most popular episodes of this show. So you can go back and listen to that if you want. And Sam is an exceptional copywriter with a whole bunch of degrees behind their name. And furthermore, she is my copy coach. It is invaluable to have somebody looking over your work and giving feedback if you want to keep improving. And this is something that we do for our clients. In Magic Marketing Machine, you submit a post and we give you feedback. You submit your big, long, juicy sales carousel or sales caption and we go over the messaging and we go over your copy with you, or you create a reel and you post your reel in our private Facebook group and coaches will look at it and be like, great, that, that's awesome. Let's tighten up the hook. Can we refilm that? Can we edit it differently? All of that. So it is so, so valuable. And I've seen firsthand how valuable this is for, you know, hundreds and hundreds of business owners. So of course I had to go and get my own. I had to get, go and get my own coach. She's help improve my copywriting a lot. You know, you just need that outside eye. I'm going to bring her in in a second. But you are so inside your business and it creates blind spots. And no matter how good you get, that is just the fact of the matter. So Sam's going to come in today. We're going to keep this short. She's going to give you some brilliance, teach you a little bit about copywriting and her approach to it. And then if all goes well, every word you write for your business will be stronger just because of this episode. Let's go get her. Sam. We almost had a shower together the other day.
- [03:03]
B
Loved it.
- [03:05]
A
I felt the need to immediately vox you to come be on the podcast while I was getting in the shower. Like it was just one of those pre shower thoughts where it was like, I think this needs to happen and it does.
- [03:16]
B
And I'm so glad that we're here.
- [03:17]
A
I don't have formal education in marketing, but you do. So what is your. Could you just tell us?
- [03:25]
B
Yeah, for sure. So I have degrees in marketing and international business. And then when I went into my sales career, I worked for really good companies. I'm really fortunate that they put me through through formal sales trainings. And the last company that I worked for full time had like, some of the analysts that worked for the company are the same folks who are writing the books on sales, including the challenger sale and other ones. So I have this deep understanding of sales not just because I did it because I sold something, but like I was, I was a tech sales girly. Which means that our joke was we were selling hundred thousand dollar passwords because when you're in tech sales, you're not really selling a product, you're selling a promise. So our joke was, you know, we're selling hundred thousand dollars passwords and I was doing it alongside people who understood the brain in like crazy ways. So yeah, that's my background.
- [04:12]
A
Love that. Okay, so not to throw shade at, you know, post secondary education, which we definitely need. Which place do you think you got more of what you use on a daily basis? The private sales training or the formal education?
- [04:25]
B
I think I learned how to learn differently in my like formal education, but like how to actually do it different. Definitely comes from on the job.
- [04:34]
A
Just curious.
- [04:35]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I think I've told people many times that I think the biggest benefit to my formal education was my edu email address because I was audacious. I would reach out to people and just be like, this is what I want to learn. This is what I want to do. And people love helping people, which we can talk about with like buyer types and stuff, because people love to be helpful. So when I was like, oh, I'm just a student and I'm trying to get experience here, they'd be like, great, I love helping people. And so that was probably the most beneficial part of going to college.
- [05:07]
A
You're also a person. I'm just throwing questions at you that I did not tell you we were.
- [05:10]
B
Going to talk about.
- [05:11]
A
But you are a person with a lot of integrity and a lot of love in your heart. And often people that listen to this show think that you can't have that and be in sales at the same time.
- [05:24]
B
No, you have. I really think you have to be both. Because I think sales is a service. And when I write people's websites, my goal is not to get people on sales calls, it's to get them on fit calls. And I think when we shift the way that we think about sales as far as like selling them something versus giving them a solution that they need and making their life easier and better, when we have that shift in sales mindset, it becomes I so deeply want to help you, not I so deeply want to separate you from your dollars. Yeah, I think the most integritous integrity filled place on the Internet can often be Redd because in the online business world there's so little regulation because we're not making typically enough money to really like stand out to the IRS or the BBB or anything. So when people go to Reddit and they're like, I bought Jenna's program and it didn't work for me, like, that's really hard as a small business owner because Reddit has really good SEO and you're going to get found. So that's just another like less altruistic reason to sell with integrity is because if you're selling to people who it's not a good fit for, then you're going to get eaten alive by the Internet and we don't want that.
- [06:34]
A
E. And you're going to get more refunds and then that's going to be stressful. And yeah, when I phoned you from the shower, really wanted to talk about buyer archetypes because this has come up in my business in some stuff I've been listening to with some friends and I know that I'd heard you talk about it before and I just want to know everything.
- [06:55]
B
Okay, then let me tell you everything. Okay. I think the first thing is that we have to Understand that different people think differently than we do, especially in a world where people are becoming much more open about things like their neurodivergence. Also, I think our brains just change when we come home from the office. As far as, like those of us who used to work outside the home, now we're inside the home and we are inside of our businesses. And without that, like, workplace banter and people looking over our shoulder, both in a positive and a negative way, we get way too close to our message. And so then we just like write whatever feels right or whatever little chatty tells us to write or whatever was handed to us on a well meaning template. And I love templates and I love using technology to excel. But like, sometimes we're just like, yeah, what? Like, I'll trust what they said because I don't have another sounding board. So then we just write what we're told to write. And as a copywriter, I encourage everybody that I work with, whether I'm writing their copy or coaching them on how to write their copy, to think about it. Not from what you're thinking, but what does your ideal buyer need to know to buy and just give them that information in a way in which they can consume that information?
- [08:09]
A
Laughing at well meaning template, which I love. One of the first things I do with my clients is work on their messaging. But we don't talk about it a lot in the marketing because it's not like sexy and fun. But you could have all the templates in the world. And if you never worked with someone on your messaging and got like that outside pov, I feel like it's, you know, the templates aren't gonna slap. And then with ChatGPT, one of the issues is it's really good at making stuff sound passable. And even I can read it four times before I realize it doesn't make sense or it doesn't have the right marketing psychology baked into it because it just sounded good off the hop. So yeah, it's a. I don't want to freak people out when they're using these shortcuts because they need to use shortcuts because we're busy. But I. I'm with you.
- [08:56]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there's patterns in there too, right? Like somebody who wrote a template and is giving it out in their program again, well meaning. And you're probably going to write faster, better, like it's gonna accelerate your process or at least give you an outline for what you want so they truly are well meaning. I sell templates like I'm pro template. I just am also pro. Like rub both of the brain cells together at the same time and see what sparks here. So like, when we're given a template, it's gonna be super long because the person selling it to you wanted you to have all of the information that you might need to be able to put on this page. But if you're using a sales page template to write something that's like a freebie and you could pro accomplish in a pop up, then you're also still wasting the time that you would have wasted with blank page syndrome. You're also writing way too much information. And there's going to be sales psychology indicators and trust indicators in there that are like, am I getting got? Is this so complicated? Like, people are going to question, why do I have 16 scrolls to give me something for free? What's the catch here? What are we doing?
- [09:59]
A
Rule number one is think about not what you want to say, but what the ideal client needs to hear in order to make a decision.
- [10:08]
B
Yes.
- [10:09]
A
And you mentioned that there's different brains and different people, work differently, think differently, and buy differently. Like for instance, I takes a long time to get me to buy something. I just bought Blundstones and I thought about it for eight years.
- [10:28]
B
They've been on my wish list for probably as long. So you're gonna have to give me the full rundown once they're broken in.
- [10:33]
A
They are, they are. You need them. I'm obsessed with them. I keep saying I wish I did this sooner, but I literally have been thinking about it since my 20s. But other people, like, you know, my mother in Law bought $200 boots online yesterday.
- [10:47]
B
Boom.
- [10:47]
A
Bought it. No research, just like to them, bought them. Everybody is so different in how we're making our buying decisions. So then it's up to the seller to appeal to the different types of people.
- [10:58]
B
Mm. Mm. There's needs and wants. And we know this from like what, grade four social studies class or whatever. So there's needs and wants. And most of what we buy is a want. Even the groceries that we buy, like, you don't need the fancy chicken nuggets. You can buy the cheap chicken and make your own food, right? Like we can go outside and find berries. Like even those decisions are very much wants. So 95% of our purchasing decisions happen subconsciously. They are emotional decisions. And then we rationalize them after. So it's, I went to Costco and I bought all of the paper towels available. Available to me. Because this is going to save me time down the road. So we make it a rational decision when really we needed like a roll of six to get us through 2028. We have to understand first that most of what we buy are wants and that we're rationalizing them. So every decision that we make is then a subconscious decision. So then after that there's different types of buyers. There are people who are going to be skimmers. They're going to go through your sales pages, your website, your online content and they're just going to skim. They're here for the vibes. And like your mother in law with those boots, she's like boots pretty purchase like boom. It's that easy. Then there's going to be high fact finders. I would guess that you were on the Blundstone website. You might have gone over to Nordstrom to see if you could get them. 20% off. You might have looked at okay, but do I really want the ones that are like booties or the ones that go like another inch higher because it snows where I live.
- [12:26]
A
And see if there's a third, if there's an archetype I fall into Because I don't think that I was a fact finder. I was a, I was a social proof seeker. Is that one of them? I asked everyone in their mother what they thought of their. I can think of three people whose brains I picked on whether they liked theirs.
- [12:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think that would probably fall into like being the skeptic too. You want social proof to again, it's just a form of rationalizing that you should purchase it. When we think of it that way, like what are the ways in which people rationalize their purchases? One of them is are the cool kids doing it? There's also another famous, famous psychologist is Maslow. So there's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So at the base that's food, water, shelter. Then we get into relationships and love. And then at the tippy top is self actualization. And if you have any sort of pocket change, you're living in that self actualization space where again you could go to Walmart and buy a pair of like rubber boots and they're going to do what you need them to do. But when you go for social proof it's the self actualization of am I going to fit in? Are other people liking it? Are they trendy, are they fashionable? You know, whatever you're looking for in that social proof, if someone else tells you, then you're like getting out of that skeptic brain and you're rationalizing that, like, they will make me. That's cooler or safer or whatever.
- [13:52]
A
That one's me because I just thought of two more people who I asked, and one was my friend who lives in Toronto because I moved to the woods, so I never know what's cool. And I asked her, are, are people still wearing Blundstones? And another girl, I was like, are Blundstones still cool? And they didn't. They don't even have them. I just wanted to know if they thought that I would still be cool if I got them. Yeah.
- [14:13]
B
Yeah. So you.
- [14:14]
A
It.
- [14:15]
B
It's a fact. You are cool now that you have.
- [14:17]
A
Blundstones, they'll last you your whole life, Sam. And the leather is insured, so they will replace the leather if it fails you. Not the sole, but the leather forever. So I'm gonna have these until I die. You see all of the ways to justify the purchase.
- [14:33]
B
Yeah. So you'd probably be on the skeptic side. And so then when we think about this from what needs to go on the sales page, you don't just need a testimonial on your sales page that says, joining MMM was the best decision I ever made. You need something that says, the community behind MMM helped me feel so much more confident in my social media skills. And now that I know Jenna's Growth, Nurture Self framework, I know that I'm doing this in a way that's, like, based in fact. Right. So they're not just saying mmm was great. They're saying, this is why MMM was great. So that when people visit your sales page and they see a testimonial that says, this is what it's going to do for me, their subconscious brain is then rationalizing, saying, okay, I'm not just learning how to make a bunch of posts, I'm learning how to make posts that accomplish something for my business.
- [15:20]
A
Right, Right.
- [15:21]
B
So your high fact finders want the details from a sales page perspective. If you're writing a sales page, that's where you see a lot of dropdowns. That's where you see. That's where you go to the FAQs, and there's a lot of dropdowns there. That's for those people. What we want to do. This is a pro, pro, pro tip is not just then name that section FAQs, but we want to name that question, potentially something with the most common question that they have. Also, we're putting pricing clearly on our website, but we also want to make sure that if you're selling in dollars. You want to be able to control f the dollar sign to get you to the facts that people need. So what are people actually searching for when they want to know, if they want to know how much time this is going to take? Maybe we put that right in the heading and not in the dropdown so that it's easily searchable. So we've got high fact finders and skimmers. Again, your skimmers also want those really potent headlines because they're going to just skim through what the biggest, brightest words on the page are. So if you're using headlines like imagine if and do you ever. They're only going to read imagine if do you ever. This is probably you dollar sign. And they're not going to have any value before they get to the part where you frame up the pricing. Everybody needs better headings. That's, that's all I will die on. We all need better headings. So then you've got your folks who are more skeptical versus people who just trust everything. But it's not that they trust everything, it's that they're probably this other archetype that's more amiable and they're just like, I trust people who are referred to me. So they're going to be more amiable, but they're still looking for that relationship and that power. We're still up in that top of Maslow's hierarchy of looking for self actualization. So those people are going to be looking for the relationship and looking for the hype. People love hype. There's also people who are more expressive and they want the vision of success painted for them.
- [17:16]
A
Would that be like future pacing? Like this is your life. Imagine you wait, you roll over in bed and wake up and you already have comments and likes and DMS because you scheduled your content.
- [17:26]
B
Exactly. Expressive people love enthusiasm, they love a good story and also they're going to love social proof. So when you say you wake up in the morning and see a gazillion DMs, you're going to put a little testimonial right there that says, I wake up every morning to a million DMs. You know it's gonna be craftier than that. But basically that. And also I wanna clarify that you're not either or you can be all of them at the same time. So it's just important to like know what people are looking for. I think the biggest thing to note here is that nobody is looking at their pain points. People are not buying from the past. They're buying from their potential. So while we do want to mention pain points, I think this is where we tend to go wrong of like all of our hooks, all of our headlines. People have like a whole big chunk on their sales page where it's like the hero part of the sales page. The first scroll the above the fold, whatever you want to call it, and then they go into like problem section, problem section, problem section. This might be you. Everything sucks, you're stuck. All of this is wrong. Well, then what we're unconsciously doing is aligning yourself with the problem and not the solution. So we can acknowledge people's problems by aligning the solutions. Something Chat loves to do is go from X to Y in just three days or whatever, but we can take them on that story where we acknowledge that, like you're gonna go from stuck to thriving. But we're not living in the stuck part. So all of these people are looking for results. They're looking for trust. They're looking for self actualization. They're looking for what is going to happen not when I buy this thing, but as a result of buying the thing for you as the seller, this ends at the sale. You want to make a sale, but you have to understand that the people reading everything, reading your captions, reading your sales pages, reading your emails, didn't wake up this morning wanting to buy something. They woke up this morning, wanted to be something. And how can we help them become who they want to be in the future?
- [19:30]
A
Mic drop Mike broke it on the floor. That's all there is to it.
- [19:34]
B
Yeah. Yeah. You're not just selling your solution. You're selling the transformation that your solution provides. So that's where we really get to live in the future. So anytime you're on your website and you're looking at it and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so problem focused. One, call me. Or two, look at it and be like, okay, but what's the problem that I'm talking about? What's the solution and what happens when that's no longer a problem problem?
- [19:57]
A
Beautifully said.
- [19:58]
B
If I had a worksheet, it would literally just be a piece of paper, horizontal with two lines down it. And the things would be like, problem, solution, transformation. And you just draw a line like, okay, the problem is you wake up tired in the morning. The solution you provide is you sell energy drinks. The transformation is you have so much more energy for your kids and you're a better person. Like, that's what we're selling is you have so much more energy for your kids and you're a better person. We're not selling that. You don't have energy drinks.
- [20:24]
A
Yeah, absolutely. That's such a simple way of putting it. We could go on for hours, leave them wanting more. And if Sam they wanted more, what might they stream after this episode?
- [20:37]
B
Yeah, so I have a podcast called Copy and. And episode three digs more into sales psychology and gives a different perspective on sales psych. So that would be a great place to find me. I'll make sure that we have that linked in the show notes. If you want more of me, I too am on Instagram. Nomad Copy.
- [20:54]
A
Awesome. You can tell them your offers too. I think we might as well.
- [20:57]
B
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, great. Well, Jenna and I actually work together in Copy on Demand, which is a very low ticket membership, so that entrepreneurs can write copy. That sounds like them, but converts better. And when you write copy, you send it to me to make sure that it's great before you hit publish. And sometimes it's just absolute shower thoughts out of Jenna's fingertips onto a Google Doc and that's super fun. And sometimes it's okay. This is almost perfect. How do we bring it across the finish line? So that's Copy on Demand. It's currently in the wait list, but we'll make sure that that link is in the show notes as well. And I also write really freaking great copy for service providers. So if you're looking at this and you're like, oh my God, Sam knows way more than I do, can I just hand it to her to do? Absolutely. Just reach out.
- [21:43]
A
Well, bye then. I'll see you on the Internet.
- [21:45]
B
Okay, sounds fantastic.