"A Very, Very Big Deal." Countries Take On Fossil Fuels

Summary

Short Wave – "A Very, Very Big Deal." Countries Take On Fossil Fuels

Date: December 17, 2025
Hosts: Emily Kwong (NPR), with guest Julia Simon (NPR’s Climate Desk)

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Episode Overview

This episode covers the dramatic and pivotal moments at COP30, the 30th UN Climate Change Conference held in Belém, Brazil. As the global summit unfolds amid unexpected chaos—a major fire—NPR’s Julia Simon brings first-hand reporting on a new international effort by a coalition of "high ambition" countries to transition away from fossil fuels. With the main UN process stalling, these nations chart a parallel path, planning the Santa Marta Conference and the push for a Fossil Fuel Treaty, potentially shifting the landscape of climate action.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. COP30: Tension, Fire, and Frustration with the Status Quo

• Opening Scenes: Julia Simon recounts the chaos of a fire in the conference tent, disrupting the closing moments just as a big announcement was due ([00:39-02:09]).
• The Core Problem: The global climate negotiations (COPs) are consensus-driven, meaning a single country's disagreement can block progress on key issues, notably the transition away from fossil fuels.
  • Quote, Juan Carlos Montery (Panama): "Every time that we come to this cup, we try to re debate science. We try to avoid talking about fossil fuels. It's really, really stupid. It's like trying to deal with a patient that has Covid but not treating the patient for Covid." ([05:23])
• Frustration: Many countries—especially those already feeling severe climate impacts—are fed up with the slow pace and lack of direct action on fossil fuels.
  • Several oil producers (Norway, Mexico) support a fossil fuel phaseout, while others (notably Saudi Arabia) oppose it, leading to gridlock ([06:15]).

2. The Santa Marta Conference: A New Coalition Rises

• A New Approach: Frustrated by lack of progress at COP, a group of around 20 ‘high ambition’ countries, led by Colombia and the Netherlands, plan a separate summit: the “Santa Marta Conference: the First International Conference on the Just Transition Away from Fossil Fuels” ([07:24-08:49]).

  • Quote, Andres Gomez (Colombia): "We have these high ambition countries...convinced that we need to do something really quickly, and we are going to do that in April." ([08:15])

• Why Not Stick With COP?: The Paris Agreement set global temperature goals, but offered no detailed plan—and current national pledges aren’t nearly enough to meet targets ([09:28-10:22]).

  • Quote, Nikki Reich (Center for International Environmental Law): "The existing framework, the Paris Agreement, it doesn't contain a step by step playbook for how we're going to combat climate change or phase out fossil fuels." ([09:47])

• Santa Marta’s Goals: To create actionable, equitable pathways for phasing out fossil fuels, including:

  • Re-directing fossil fuel subsidies toward renewables and transition support.
  • Ensuring fair labor transitions for tens of millions currently employed by fossil fuel industries ([10:27-11:11]).
  • Quote, Irene Velez Torres (Colombia Environment Minister): "The idea of the Santa Marta conference is to have this first space in which we are completely clear that the phasing out is necessary because it's not easy. No one is saying that it is easy, but if we don't face the problems, we cannot build the solutions." ([08:49])

• Concrete Action: Dutch Minister Sophie Hermans underscores that the Santa Marta meeting is about implementing the ambition declared in Paris.

  • Quote: "In Paris, 10 years ago, we all said, okay, we have this ambition. But after you have said you have the ambition, you also have to come to action. And that's what we are doing now." ([11:37])

3. The Fossil Fuel Treaty: Toward Legal Commitment

• What is it?: A proposed international treaty—legally binding—for a “just transition” away from fossil fuels.

  • Already, 18 countries (including Colombia and Cambodia) and several large cities (Chicago, London, Kolkata) have expressed support ([12:02]).

• What’s Next: Santa Marta will lay groundwork for drafting this treaty and for involving more countries in the legal push ([12:49]).

  • Quote, Jessica Green (Univ. of Toronto): "We need to sort of smaller groups of countries, coalitions of the willing to forge ahead because the laggards are not willing to get with the program." ([13:04])

• Industry Pushback: The American Petroleum Institute (API) argues such efforts distract from “innovating to deliver the energy the world needs with a smaller environmental footprint” ([13:21]).

4. Emotional Moment: Despite Fire, the Announcement Happens

• After the Fire: The next morning, the announcement proceeds. Colombia's Environment Minister stands with other envoys to declare the Santa Marta Conference ([14:09-14:51]).
  • Quote, Irene Velez Torres: "This declaration is grounded in a simple scientific truth. Fossil fuels are the primary driver of climate crisis. For that reason, the government of Colombia, in alliance with the government of the Netherlands, announces today the first international conference on just transition away from fossil fuels." ([14:22])
• Reactions: Organizers and attendees express hope and emotion.
  • Quote, Andres Gomez: "That was so moving and I don't know, like very inspiring. Like the perfect 10 for a cop that wasn't promising anything. Probably this would be the most important outcome of this cup." ([14:59-15:04])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Julia Simon, on the urgency: "We came to Berlin with a clear goal. Keep the 1.5 limit within reach. Of course, align with science. This is powerful war science. We need to trust science." ([02:14])

• (On the new conference) "Concrete measures to help countries actually deliver on the goals of the Paris Agreement? Well, that's the goal, right, Is to make the transition away from fossil fuels really happen." —Julia Simon ([11:17])

• Jessica Green highlights the moment’s significance: "This is a very, very big deal." ([12:49])

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:39-02:09]: Julia Simon describes the fire disrupting COP30, forcing evacuation and uncertainty.
• [04:43-06:49]: Discussion of why fossil fuels are not named/targeted explicitly in previous agreements, and the resulting frustration.
• [07:24-08:49]: Introduction to the Santa Marta conference and its purpose.
• [09:28-10:22]: Limitations of the Paris Agreement for real action.
• [11:17]: Plans for equitable measures in the transition away from fossil fuels.
• [12:02]: First explanation of the proposed Fossil Fuel Treaty.
• [14:09-14:51]: The Santa Marta Conference announcement finally delivered after the fire.
• [15:04]: Emotional response from the Colombian delegation.

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Conclusion & Takeaway

While COP30 failed to deliver a collective commitment to end fossil fuels, a vanguard group of countries is breaking new ground, organizing the Santa Marta Conference and planning a “Fossil Fuel Treaty.” Their aim: to turn ambition into actionable, equitable transition strategies, and—crucially—to write binding international law. Despite setbacks and opposition, this episode marks a possible inflection point in global climate politics.

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For listeners: If you want to follow this new front in climate action, watch for the Santa Marta Conference in April 2026. The momentum from COP30 could shape the future of fossil fuel policy worldwide.

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End of summary.

Transcript

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[Emily Kwong]

You're listening to short wave from NPR. Hey, shortwavers. Emily Kwong here with Julia Simon from NPR's Climate Desk.

[Julia Simon]

Hey, Julia. Hey, Emily. It's so good to be here.

[Emily Kwong]

I'm so excited to talk to because you just got back from COP 30, the UN Climate Change Conference in Belen, Brazil, at the edge of the Amazon rainforest. How was it?

[Julia Simon]

Well, I would say eventful is a good word to describe it. The conference took place in these big plastic tents, and the day before the conference was supposed to end, I was on the phone with my editor in the US Sadie Babitz. And then people started running through the tent saying, there's a fire. Okay, there's really a fire. Jesus effing Christ, Sadie.

[Emily Kwong]

Oh, no.

[Julia Simon]

I know. I gotta move on. Sadie's telling me to get out. The Brazilians are pretty upset and they speak the language. So what happened? It seems to have been an electrical issue. Something caught fire. There was a huge blaze enveloping part of the tent. At least a dozen people were treated for smoke inhalation. Tens of thousands of us were evacuated. But when I ran out of the tent, the first thing I did was was find this guy named Andres Gomez. Because, Emily, today's podcast, it's not about the fire. It's about what was supposed to happen just 15 minutes after the fire broke out. Andres is from Colombia, and he was working with the Colombian government and a group of about 20 other countries to make this big announcement, something that climate experts say promised to be one of the most important things to come out of this conference. Yikes. So you guys are trying to reschedule, I'm guessing.

[Andres Gomez]

Who knows? We need everything to calm down. And the Colombian government.

[Unidentified Short Interjection Speaker]

Oh, man.

[Emily Kwong]

Today on the show, what almost didn't happen at the climate conference in Brazil.

[Julia Simon]

A fire upends a major announcement about tackling the biggest driver of global warming, fossil fuels. We came to Berlin with a clear goal. Keep the 1.5 limit within reach. Of course, align with science. This is powerful war science. We need to trust science.

[Emily Kwong]

Will this announcement happen? Will it not happen?

[Julia Simon]

Stay with us.

[Fernando Madera]

I'm going to stress eat chocolate. Anyone want to do that?

[Julia Simon]

That would be a lovely idea.

[Emily Kwong]

Thank you. You're listening to Short Wave, the Science podcast from NPR.

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[Emily Kwong]

About whether this announcement happens or not, what was on the table at this year's UN climate conference called COP30?

[Julia Simon]

Well, quick refresher course. About 70% of the greenhouse gas emissions heating our planet, Emily, they come from burning fossil fuels. Facts.

[Emily Kwong]

Burning coal, oil and natural gas is the single biggest driver of global warming.

[Julia Simon]

Exactly. And for the past 30 years, countries have been coming to these UN climate conferences to discuss how to tackle global warming. But many countries say these conferences, they're called cops, do not have nearly enough emphasis on the need to transition away from fossil fuels, again, which is the main driver of climate change. I spoke to Juan Carlos Monterey, he's special representative for Climate Change of Panama, about this topic.

[Juan Carlos Monterey]

Every time that we come to this cup, we try to re debate science. We try to avoid talking about fossil fuels. It's really, really stupid. It's like trying to deal with a patient that has Covid but not treating the patient for Covid.

[Julia Simon]

Yeah, Emily, it took 28 years for the COP agreement to even mention transitioning away from fossil fuels.

[Emily Kwong]

Ooh, I imagine that's really frustrating for so many countries who come to this conference.

[Julia Simon]

I would say some of the countries I spoke to would say frustrating is an understatement. Climate change is happening, and many countries came to Belen explicitly demanding language in the final agreement about a roadmap away from fossil fuels. In fact, many countries like the United Kingdom, Mexico, Norway, they said they didn't want to leave the conference without that fossil fuel roadmap language. Hmm.

[Emily Kwong]

Did they get their roadmap?

[Julia Simon]

No. No mention of fossil fuels. Wow. And so, like we said, many countries are deeply frustrated with this UN process. It's a process by consensus, Emily. So every country has to agree to the text of this agreement. And you have close to 200 countries in the process. And while Norway and Mexico are oil producers and they want a roadmap off of fossil fuels, some other big oil producers like Saudi Arabia, they do not. So you have some countries pretty consistently blocking text that mentions fossil fuels.

[Emily Kwong]

Interesting. So this is the dynamic at cop. Is anyone doing anything about it?

[Julia Simon]

Well, remember that guy we met from the top of the episode, Andres Gomez from Colombia? Yes. You.

[Emily Kwong]

You found him after the fire.

[Julia Simon]

Exactly. He works for a group that is developing something new. I met with and that morning before the fire, and he told me what was supposed to happen later that day. I consider this under embargo. This isn't going to go out until later today.

[Emily Kwong]

Famous last words.

[Julia Simon]

I know, right?

[Andres Gomez]

Yeah, it's very interesting. Countries like Mexico, for instance.

[Julia Simon]

Andres was showing me on his phone a list of about 20 countries that plan to announce something called the first international conference on the Just Transition Away from Fossil Fuels, or the Santa Marta Conference for short.

[Emily Kwong]

What is the Santa Marta Conference?

[Julia Simon]

Well, like we said before, some of those countries that really want this roadmap away from fossil fuels, they're again frustrated with those consensus rules of cop. Everybody has to agree. These countries want to take action urgently. And just like if you're doing a group project, Emily, and there's some people who are really into it and some people who are not so much these countries, some call them the high ambition countries. They're like, we want our own space, we want our own conference to really tackle the phase out of fossil fuels asap. Here's Andres.

[Andres Gomez]

We have these high ambition countries which are 20, let's say that we get the same number that we have now. So we'll have these countries which are convinced that we need to do something really quickly, and we are going to do that in April.

[Julia Simon]

So this conference in April 2026 that Andres is Helping to organize that will be the first global conference for the phase out of fossil fuels. It's in Santa Marta, Colombia, hence the name. And that's a big deal. Colombia's an oil, gas and coal producer. Here's Irene Velez Torres, Colombia's Environment Minister.

[Irene Velez Torres]

The idea of the Santa Marta conference is to have this first space in which we are completely clear that the phasing out is necessary because it's not easy. No one is saying that it is easy, but if we don't face the problems, we cannot build the solutions.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay. This is fascinating that this new conference has emerged.

[Julia Simon]

Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

I gotta ask, though. Why. Why not just bring this to cop? I mean, COP is the place where the world came together around the Paris Agreement. Around 190 countries agreed to try to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. So why can't countries just, you know, stick to that?

[Julia Simon]

I mean, it's an important question. And in the Paris Agreement, countries did agree to limit warming and cut their emissions. But the thing about the Paris Agreement, Emily, is that it doesn't specify the specific steps countries will take. Here's Nikki Reich. She's Climate and Energy Director at the center for International Environmental Law.

[Emily Kwong]

The existing framework, the Paris Agreement, it doesn't contain a step by step playbook for how we're going to combat climate change or phase out fossil fuels.

[Julia Simon]

Also, it turns out the pledges that countries are making for the Paris Agreement, they're not enough to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. A new UN report finds that right now countries are pursuing policies that would cut emissions by just 12% by 2035. What scientists say countries need to do is cut emissions in half by 2035.

[Jesse Diggins]

Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay, so how does the Santa Marta conference intend to be different?

[Julia Simon]

They tell me they're still nailing down the official agenda, but the big conversation topic is how to transition away from fossil fuels in an equitable way. So globally, there are still lots of subsidies for the oil, gas and coal industries. One thing that organizers tell me that they'll probably be discussing is how to redirect that money away from oil, gas and coal to towards helping countries pay for things like more renewable energy and batteries. Also, there are tens of millions of people who work in the fossil fuel industries, people who work in coal mines, and people who work on drilling rigs. These organizers say countries are gonna have to find a way to get these people new jobs in an equitable and fair way.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like these would be concrete measures to help Countries actually deliver on the goals of the Paris Agreement?

[Julia Simon]

Well, that's the goal, right, Is to make the transition away from fossil fuels really happen. Sophie Hermans is Minister of Climate Policy and Green Growth of the Netherlands. The Netherlands is co hosting this new conference with the Colombian government. And the Minister says the Santa Marta conference is complementary to what they promised in Paris.

[Unidentified Short Interjection Speaker]

In Paris, 10 years ago, we all said, okay, we have this ambition. But after you have said you have the ambition, you also have to come to action. And that's what we are doing now.

[Julia Simon]

But Emily, there is one other thing that they plan to discuss in Santa Marta in the spring, and that is something called the Fossil Fuel Treaty.

[Emily Kwong]

Ooh, what is the Fossil Fuel Treaty?

[Julia Simon]

It is an initiative to make a legally binding treaty for a just transition to phase out fossil fuels. So 18 countries are already signed on, including Colombia, Cambodia, also a number of small island nations like Tuvalu, Vanuatu, a number of big cities, Chicago, London, Kolkata. And this is the group that Andres works for. Nikki Reich, the lawyer we spoke to, advises them in her role at the center for International Environmental Law. The hope is that in Santa Marta they will get the ball rolling for another conference to begin this treaty writing process. The ultimate goal being to make this legally binding document that would commit countries to transition away from fossil fuels.

[Unidentified Short Interjection Speaker]

This is a very, very big deal.

[Julia Simon]

This is Jessica Green, political science professor at University of Toronto. She thinks this Santa Marta conference and this potential fossil fuel treaty represent an inflection point for global climate politics.

[Unidentified Short Interjection Speaker]

Of course, it remains to be seen what they will accomplish together. But this is something that academics have been talking about for a long time, is that we need to sort of smaller groups of countries, coalitions of the willing to forge ahead because the laggards are not willing to get with the program.

[Julia Simon]

And by the way, we reached out to the American Petroleum Institute, or API, about the conference. The API is the biggest oil and gas trade association in the US with offices around the world. API spokesperson Charlotte Law said in an email, quote, global energy demand is surging, and quote, ideological debates are about eliminating single energy sources are frozen in the past and distract from the real work ahead. Innovating to deliver the energy the world needs with a smaller environmental footprint.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay, good to know. So back to this conference. Did Andres and everyone get to announce what they wanted to say at cop given the fire?

[Julia Simon]

Well, we were all evacuated after the fire. We weren't sure what would happen. But the next morning, we all gathered in the press conference room.

[Irene Velez Torres]

Thank you very much for being here.

[Julia Simon]

And then Colombian Environment Minister Irene Velez Torres. She got on stage, flanked by about a dozen other country representatives and made this announcement.

[Irene Velez Torres]

This declaration is grounded in a simple scientific truth. Fossil fuels are the primary driver of climate crisis. For that reason, the government of Colombia, in alliance with the government of the Netherlands, announces today the first international conference on just transition away from fossil fuels. This conference.

[Julia Simon]

I looked over at Andres a few times during the press conference and he looked like he was tearing up. I caught up with him after Andres.

[Andres Gomez]

That was just so great.

[Julia Simon]

Were you tearing up?

[Andres Gomez]

Almost. That was so moving and I don't know, like very inspiring. Like the perfect 10 for a cop that wasn't promising anything. Probably this would be the most important outcome of this cup.

[Julia Simon]

And Emily, some climate experts agree with him. The fact that this conference announced the establishment of another conference to phase out fossil fuels, that may end up being one of the most important things to come out of this cop.

[Emily Kwong]

I'm guessing you will be there in Santa Marta in April to cover it.

[Julia Simon]

You know it. I will be there to cover it 100% Colombia, pal. Mundo Papa from Colombia for the World.

[Emily Kwong]

Yes, Julia, thank you so much for coming on Short Wave.

[Julia Simon]

Thank you, Emily.

[Emily Kwong]

If you liked the this episode, follow us on the NPR app or your preferred podcasting platform. This episode was produced by Hannah Chin. It was edited by Sadie Babbitts and our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones checked the facts. Jimmy Keeley was the audio engineer. Beth Donovan is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.

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