Alive Or Not Alive... Is A Tricky Question

Summary

Short Wave Episode Summary: "Alive Or Not Alive... Is A Tricky Question"

Release Date: August 15, 2025
Hosts: Emily Kwong and Regina Barber
Guest: Dr. Crystal Rogers, Developmental Biologist at University of California, Davis

---

1. Revisiting the Definition of Life

Timestamp: 00:26 – 01:53

Regina Barber opens the episode by taking listeners "back to school," delving into the fundamental question: What is life? She references a commonly taught list of criteria that define living organisms, which includes characteristics such as high organization, the ability to reproduce, metabolism, growth, responsiveness to the environment, and maintaining homeostasis.

Regina Barber states:

"You might remember a list of life, a set of bullet points that are the criteria for being alive. They include things like being highly organized, like the machinery inside a cell, using energy and responding to the environment." (00:26)

Crystal Rogers adds depth to this introduction:

"So something that could reproduce itself. They have to be able to have a metabolism, also growth." (00:52)

She emphasizes her passion for understanding life at its most fundamental level:

"So my lab studies how embryos develop from a single cell into a complex organism." (01:05)

---

2. Challenges in Defining Life

Timestamp: 03:33 – 09:05

Dr. Rogers discusses the complexities involved in defining life, noting that while the standard criteria provide a framework, they do not encapsulate all forms of existence, especially those that might not fit neatly into our Earth-centric view.

Crystal Rogers reflects on the non-linearity of defining life:

"I don't think so because I think all of us have our different perspectives on life." (01:19)

She elaborates on the ambiguity surrounding certain entities like viruses:

"If you can't reproduce yourself and if you need to invade somebody else like a living animal cell to reproduce and to survive, then I don't think they're alive." (04:32)

The discussion highlights the subjective nature of life definitions, influenced heavily by human biases and our limited understanding based on terrestrial life forms.

Regina Barber probes further:

"So is this list of life like, do you think it comes from the idea of what life actually is, or does it come from describing what we have already decided is alive?" (05:40)

Crystal Rogers acknowledges the inherent biases:

"I think it gets to the latter. I think that scientists over multiple years have been defining what we already think is alive." (05:50)

---

3. Speculating on Extraterrestrial Life

Timestamp: 06:34 – 08:16

The conversation shifts to imagining life beyond Earth. Crystal Rogers admits her preconceived notions are influenced by popular media but advocates for a scientific approach by looking at resilient life forms on Earth, such as bacteria and cockroaches, to hypothesize what extraterrestrial life might resemble.

Crystal Rogers imagines:

"I am completely biased based on what I've seen on TV and in movies... What is the need for that? I think more... there might be some sort of single cell type of organism elsewhere." (06:38)

She underscores the evolutionary success of certain Earth organisms:

"Cockroaches are indestructible. Scorpions, sharks... These animals have this really long term success." (07:30)

Rogers contemplates human uniqueness and efficiency:

"We stand upright, which is really not very effective for traveling... I don't think that this is something that would necessarily evolve elsewhere." (08:07)

---

4. Is Data from Star Trek Alive?

Timestamp: 09:05 – 10:38

A fun segment explores whether the Star Trek character, Data—a highly sophisticated android—is considered alive based on the previously discussed criteria.

Regina Barber begins the analysis:

"So if we're talking about the Star Trek Android, crew member Data, is he alive?" (09:05)

Crystal Rogers examines each criterion:

"He definitely evolved... but does he have a metabolism? I don't know that they ever addressed whether he is using, like, how he does use energy." (09:12)

They proceed to evaluate Data against the life criteria:

• Organization: Confirmed (09:55)
• Metabolism: Unclear (10:05)
• Reproduction: Partially demonstrated (10:12)
• Growth and Development: Uncertain (10:16)
• Response to Environment: Evident (10:34)

Regina Barber summarizes:

"So is Data alive? That was the whole list." (10:38)

Crystal Rogers concludes:

"I think that the crew on Star Trek Enterprise would tell you that, yes, Data is alive." (10:48)

---

5. The Beauty and Importance of Life

Timestamp: 10:51 – 11:43

Dr. Rogers shares her profound appreciation for life, stemming from her work in developmental biology. She reflects on witnessing the transformation of a single cell into a complex organism, which fuels her passion and belief in the importance of defining and understanding life.

Crystal Rogers remarks:

"I am a developmental biologist because we get to watch life become life and it's the coolest thing ever." (10:51)

She connects this appreciation to broader societal implications:

"If more of us appreciated the beauty of life and how it happens, maybe we would be kinder to each other." (11:43)

Regina Barber responds gratefully:

"I love that. I'm gonna try to be more patient and love life more because of you, Dr. Rogers." (11:34)

---

6. Closing Thoughts

Timestamp: 11:43 – 12:18

Regina Barber wraps up the episode by highlighting Dr. Rogers' contributions and inviting listeners to engage further with their science questions. The team behind the episode is also acknowledged, emphasizing the collaborative effort in bringing such insightful discussions to the audience.

---

Guest Profile:
Dr. Crystal Rogers is a developmental biologist at the University of California, Davis. Her research focuses on embryonic development, studying how single cells evolve into complex organisms.

Production Credits:
Produced by Burley McCoy, edited by Gabriel Spitzer, fact-checked by Anil Oza, with audio engineering by Josh Newman.

---

This episode of Short Wave offers an engaging exploration into the elusive definition of life, blending scientific insight with imaginative speculation. Dr. Crystal Rogers provides a nuanced perspective that challenges listeners to rethink preconceived notions about what constitutes living beings, both on Earth and beyond.

Transcript

[Vanta Ad]

This message comes from Vanta. In today's fast changing digital world, proving your company has trustworthy security practices is essential. Vanta helps companies of all sizes earn and Prove Trust. Visit vanta.comnpr to sign up for a demo today.

[Regina Barber]

Hey, shortwavers. Regina Barber here. Today we're going back to school. It's been a while since we've done one of these episodes where we revisit a science topic you may have learned about and go a little deeper with it. You might remember a list of life a set of bullet points that are the criteria for being alive. They include things like being highly organized, like the machinery inside a cell, using energy and responding to the environment.

[Crystal Rogers]

So something that could reproduce itself. They have to be able to have a metabolism, also growth.

[Regina Barber]

That's developmental biologist Crystal Rogers at University of California, Davis. And she thinks about life a lot.

[Crystal Rogers]

So my lab studies how embryos develop from a single cell into a complex organism.

[Regina Barber]

And she says even though we have this list, defining life is not that straightforward. Can we boil it down to like some? That's one thing?

[Crystal Rogers]

I don't think so because I think all of us have our different perspectives on life.

[Regina Barber]

And even though it's a tricky question, Crystal thinks life is worth defining.

[Crystal Rogers]

There are things we would do to non living things like use them for resources, build a house out of a tree which is alive and then we've now killed it and now it's just a thing, right? Whether a rock is alive, I don't think so. But the bacteria that's living on it is probably alive. So I don't know if I have an answer to your question except for the idea it's important to understand what life is so that we don't destroy it and so we can protect it.

[Regina Barber]

Today on the show, what is life? The standard criteria, but also why defining it is so hard. Plus, we get a little sci fi by imagining what life might look like outside of Earth. And ask is the Star Trek character Data, who is an Android, alive? Hi, I'm Regina Barber and you're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.

[Charles Schwab Ad]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Vanta Ad]

This message comes from BetterHelp. As a dad, BetterHelp President Fernando Madera relates to needing flexibility when it comes to scheduling therapy.

[Fernando Madera]

I have kids under 18. So like time is very limited. That's why at BetterHelp, our therapists try to have sessions sometimes at night, depending on the therapist, or during the weekend. So I think that's what we need to tell the parents. You're not alone. We can help you out.

[Vanta Ad]

If a flexible schedule would help you. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your first month of online therapy.

[Charles Schwab Ad]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Indeed. Just realizing your business needed to hire someone yesterday, speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. Claim your $75 sponsored job credit now at indeed.comshortwave. terms and conditions apply.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, Crystal. The classic items on this so called list of life are having an organized structure, reproduction, growth and development, using energy, trying to maintain homeostasis, responding to environment and adaptation. Okay, let's dig into a few of these.

[Crystal Rogers]

So for me as a developmental biologist, growth is a big part of what we study. The concept is based on an organism that changes in space and time, meaning you are a single cell egg gets fertilized and now there's me. I'm a very complex organism in my own opinion. But you know, that required growth. It required patterning and change and response to the environment and the use of energy.

[Regina Barber]

Oh, does it use energy? I mean a lot of things, even viruses use energy, right?

[Crystal Rogers]

Well, they use this. I mean they're using the cell's machinery. So they don't really have their own ability to process things. They don't have a metabolism. They're just like a sack filled.

[Regina Barber]

Viruses aren't alive then.

[Crystal Rogers]

Some folks believe that viruses are life. I'm still of the old school. I think that if you can't reproduce yourself and if you need to invade somebody else like a living animal cell to reproduce and to survive, then I don't think they're alive. But that's an opinion.

[Regina Barber]

So going back to this idea of metabolism that you mentioned, that's another bullet point on the list. Can you talk about that one?

[Crystal Rogers]

So something where they use energy sources to do things. So in our case, each and every one of the cells in our body is constantly using energy to continue whatever its process is. So your entire digestive tract is constantly using energy to make enzymes and break down food and all of that requires energy.

[Regina Barber]

What about maintaining balance with your environment?

[Crystal Rogers]

Homeostasis.

[Regina Barber]

Homeostasis.

[Crystal Rogers]

So that's, that's part of responding to environmental changes. So for us, you know, if it's cold out, we shiver and that helps to create warmth, or if it's hot, we sweat those are really simple, simple versions of environmental response. But that is something that even a single celled organism can do, but can a virus?

[Regina Barber]

So is this list of life like, do you think it comes from the idea of what life actually is, or does it come from describing what we have already decided is alive?

[Crystal Rogers]

So I think it gets to. It's the latter. I think that scientists over multiple years have been defining what we already think is alive. And this is why it's so difficult to then look at things that don't fit in this list to ask or define whether or not they live. So it's hard because if you have somebody who has been trained, say, as a biologist, they might look at a cell and say, well, obviously it has to maintain its homeostasis. It is alive. We know that it has to do that because if it doesn't, it will die or pop or something. But are we going to be able to apply this list to extraterrestrial species if they aren't exactly like this?

[Regina Barber]

So have you imagined what life would look like outside of Earth?

[Crystal Rogers]

When I imagine it, I am completely biased based on what I've seen on TV and in movies. And I'm always thinking, oh, it's going to be these, you know, these big headed bald creatures that can speak with. Without using their mouths. Yeah, it doesn't even make any sense because why would that necessarily evolve? What is the need for that? I think more. Yeah, well, so if we go at it from a scientific perspective, I think that we should look at the kinds of creatures that have thrived on our Earth. And so, for example, looking at bacteria, so you can imagine there might be some sort of single cell type of organism elsewhere or. And this part is like my nightmare because I'm an arachnophobe and I'm an insectophobe. But honestly, there are more insects on Earth than there are any type of vertebrate organism. And I do think that there's something to that, you know, or animals on our Earth who have survived all this time. Cockroaches, scorpions. Cockroaches are indestructible. Scorpions, sharks. Sharks were here before trees, apparently. And so you have these animals who have this really long term success. And so I imagine that we probably humans are like, no offense, but we are the stupidest creature in terms of how we're built. Like all of our organs are just presented. We stand upright, which is really not very effective for traveling. We come out premature because our brains are so big that if we continue, we have to be Taken care of, we're completely useless for like, a year and a half or more. And so I don't think that this is something that would necessarily evolve elsewhere because it was the perfect storm that got us where we are.

[Regina Barber]

Can you talk about why you think it's so hard for science to define what life is then?

[Crystal Rogers]

Hmm. Well, I do think that a lot of that gets into our biases when we think about life. Most of us think about human life first or animal life, and it's hard to consider what that actually means. And it differs based on our belief systems. And so when we extend that net out to other organisms or thinking about, you know, is a virus life, for example, it's really hard to get past that. None of us are in our own echo chamber and we aren't affected by outside things. And so, I don't know. I think that we all form our beliefs of what life is based on what we've learned and what we've experienced.

[Regina Barber]

So if we're talking about the Star Trek Android, crew member Data Commander, what are you?

[Crystal Rogers]

An Android, which is. Webster's 24th Century Dictionary, 5th Edition, defined an Android as an automaton made to resemble a human being.

[Regina Barber]

Is he alive?

[Crystal Rogers]

He definitely evolved. I know. Okay, so this was really hard because watching Data evolve over the seasons into this. This creature who was humanoid, it seemed like he was developing feelings or, you know, he had, like, relationships.

[Regina Barber]

That totally did. Totally did.

[Crystal Rogers]

That got weird. I'm not gonna lie. That got a little weird.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, let's actually take Data and let's go through the list. Okay, so, like, okay, he's highly organized. That's definitely. He's check. He can.

[Crystal Rogers]

Does he charge? Is there a metabolism there? I don't know that they ever addressed whether he is using, like, how he does use energy.

[Regina Barber]

I think he has some sort of battery source that's like limitless or something.

[Crystal Rogers]

Okay.

[Regina Barber]

He does reproduce. Not successfully, but he has.

[Crystal Rogers]

Right.

[Regina Barber]

He does grow and develop. Let's see here.

[Crystal Rogers]

I don't know that he grows physically.

[Regina Barber]

Okay. He doesn't know physically.

[Crystal Rogers]

Well, maybe his biological. The skin portion maybe actually functions as skin, which would be. Then a tissue, which would be multiple cells dividing and maintaining homeostasis. Right.

[Regina Barber]

Okay.

[Crystal Rogers]

Okay.

[Regina Barber]

And does he respond to his environment? Definitely.

[Crystal Rogers]

Definitely. So is Data alive?

[Regina Barber]

That was the whole list.

[Crystal Rogers]

Multiple seasons. It was the whole question about Data, is he alive? I think that the crew on Star Trek Enterprise would tell you that, yes, Data is alive.

[Regina Barber]

I'm gonna say he's alive.

[Crystal Rogers]

I don't disagree. I am a biologist because I find life amazing. That's the thing that really got me into this. I thought I wanted to be a physician and I went to graduate school and I watched a frog embryo develop from a single cell into a froglet, which is basically like a mid metamorphosis stage frog. And to me, that was it. I am a developmental biologist because we get to watch life become life and it's the coolest thing ever. So I think if more of us appreciated the beauty of life and how it happens, maybe we would be kinder to each other.

[Regina Barber]

I love that. I'm gonna try to be more patient and love life more because of you, Dr. Rogers.

[Crystal Rogers]

Why thank you. That's amazing.

[Regina Barber]

Crystal Rogers is a developmental biologist at UC Davis. If you have a science question, send us an [e-mail] Today's episode was produced by Burley McCoy, edited by Gabriel Spitzer, and fact checked by Anil Oza. The audio engineer was Josh Newman. I'm Regina Barber. Thanks for listening to Short Wave from npr.

[Vanta Ad]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the US get started with your own design studio. Sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] NPR this message comes from Warby Parker.

[Charles Schwab Ad]

What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost, like free adjustments for life. Find your [e-mail] or visit one of their hundreds of stores around the country. This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you. With plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5GB plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.