Behold a T-Rex holotype, paleontology's "gold standard"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Short Wave - “Behold a T-Rex holotype, paleontology's ‘gold standard’” (Jan 6, 2026)

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Regina Barber takes listeners on an in-depth tour of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, focusing on the extraordinary fossils kept there—especially the holotype of the Tyrannosaurus rex. Joined by curator Matt Lamanna, director Sarah Crawford, and paleobiologist Sarah Davis, the episode delves into the meaning and significance of holotype specimens, offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the museum’s “bone room,” and explores how fossils are preserved, studied, and shared with the public.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Awe of Dinosaur Fossils (00:17–01:31)

• Regina visits the Carnegie Museum, describing the impactful sight of towering dinosaur fossils.
  • “It's so big. It's so like, I don't think people understand how big this is.” – Regina Barber (01:08)
• Matt Lamanna shares that about 75% of displayed specimens are real fossils (00:42).

What is a Holotype? (01:31–02:18)

• Matt Lamanna explains holotype specimens as the “gold standard” fossils upon which a species is based.
  • “So they're the specimens upon which a fossil species is based. It becomes like the gold standard...” – Matt Lamanna (01:39)
• The museum has about 500 holotypes; 10–20 are in the gallery (01:57).

The T. rex Holotype Reveal (02:06–02:39)

• Regina is surprised to encounter the true holotype of Tyrannosaurus rex on display.
  • “And these are like the real bones.” – Regina Barber (02:18)
  • “They are the real bones... All these people that are in here right now are looking at most of what we have, of what, by definition, the world’s first fossil, the world’s most famous dinosaur.” – Matt Lamanna (02:20)
• The skull, due to its fragility, is stored downstairs.

Descending into the Museum's Bowels – Behind the Scenes (04:22–06:09)

• Regina explores the museum’s basement accompanied by Sarah Crawford and Sarah Davis, where research and storage happen away from public eyes.
• The basement holds millions of specimens—“22 million objects”—mainly for research, not exhibition (05:12).
  • “Most of our collection are things that people probably never see if you’re just the general public, but scientists see them.” – Sarah Crawford (02:54)
• Space constraints mean items are rotated between storage and display (05:35).

Meeting the T. rex Skull – Science in Action (05:46–07:47)

• Regina sees and touches the heavy T. rex jawbone holotype, usually accessible only to researchers.
  • “So people come here specifically to study Tyrannosaurus Rex and they want to see the holotype... the skull has a lot of really important information on the biology, the identity of these animals. And so keeping this down in the collection makes it more accessible for science.” – Sarah Davis (06:32)
• Regina is amazed (and thrilled) to touch the 67-million-year-old fossil.
  • “Oh, my God. Okay, I'm done.” – Regina Barber (07:17)

Science Meets Museum-goers (07:47–09:36)

• Sometimes, researchers work on fossils while they're on public display.
  • “We actually do have scientists go on exhibit and study things while visitors are around.” – Sarah Davis (07:47)
• Anecdote of a visiting scientist studying a Coelophysis skeleton during public hours, to the curiosity of museum guests (08:13).

Protecting Priceless Fossils (09:01–09:36)

• Before and during exhibition, environmental care is essential—sound vibrations, for example, can damage bones.
  • “We also have to keep an eye out for, like, sound levels in the space...” – Sarah Crawford (09:13)
  • “Even vibrations of sound can move the specimens and over time, could cause damage.” – Sarah Crawford (09:14)

A Tour of the Basement’s Treasures (09:37–10:56)

• Regina explores fossil storage: dinosaur bones, a room-filling American mastodon, fossilized skin, and rare Antarctic marine reptiles.
  • “This is a mastodon, American mastodon, Very old, and it comes from Indiana, but was found on a farmer’s land and then donated to the museum.” – Sarah Davis (10:01)
  • Regina is shown a 66-million-year-old lobster claw fossil—a moment of humor: “Looks so delicious.” (10:56)

The Emotional Impact of Collections (10:57–12:08)

• Sarah Crawford reflects on the unique sensory and emotional experience of working in the collections.
  • “Like the smell of going into collections... the sound, that smell of the mothballs, these drawers that have these, like, really ornate handles... There’s just so many details and so many feelings... impossible to communicate. That sound, that smell...” – Sarah Crawford (11:04, 11:44)
  • “How do I give people that feeling... going behind the scenes and being this close to, like, these amazing specimens.” – Sarah Crawford (12:08)

The Museum Ecosystem – Community, Play, and Science (12:08–end)

• Regina concludes her journey uplifted by the vibrant intersection of scientific research and public engagement in the museum.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “This is my big reveal for the tour. This is the holotype of Tyrannosaurus Rex.” – Matt Lamanna (02:12)
• “You straight up touched it? Oh my gosh.” – Regina Barber, on witnessing Sarah Davis handle the T. rex bone (07:06)
• “One kid wanted to join. They were like, well, I'll see the dinosaur. And I was like, we'll see the dinosaur from over here.” – Sarah Davis (08:41)
• “Even vibrations of sound can move the specimens and over time, could cause damage.” – Sarah Crawford (09:14)
• “That feeling of going behind the scenes into collections is something that I wish I could communicate to every visitor.” – Sarah Crawford (11:44)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17 – Arrival and dinosaur gallery introduction
• 01:31 – Holotype definition and significance
• 02:12 – Reveal of the T. rex holotype
• 04:22 – Down to the research basement
• 05:46 – Encounter with the T. rex jawbone
• 07:47 – Scientists at work on public display
• 09:01 – Fossil protection and environmental challenges
• 09:37 – Exploration of the fossil basement collection
• 10:58 – The awe of the museum’s behind-the-scenes experience
• 12:08 – The museum as a living ecosystem

---

Tone: Friendly, enthusiastic, endlessly curious, and peppered with humor and wonder at scientific discovery.

For Listeners: This episode offers a rare, accessible glimpse into the critical—and sometimes hidden—work that keeps natural history alive, balancing research, preservation, and public fascination with the world’s most legendary dinosaur.

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Regina Barber]

You'Re listening to Shortwave from NPR. This summer, I got to go on a grown up field trip. I got in my car and I drove a little over four hours to the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh. I was so excited to learn about dinosaurs. And I'm not the only one. People have been coming to this museum since 1895 to see all the dinosaur bones on display.

[Matt Lamanna]

Most of what you see in the dinosaur gallery are real fossils. So there's about, you know, roughly 250 specimens on display, and about 75% of those are the actual fossils.

[Regina Barber]

That's Matt Lamanna, the curator of vertebrate paleontology at the museum. He'd just come back from a dig in Wyoming and he was nice enough to walk me through the dino exhibit when I first arrived.

[Matt Lamanna]

So not all the creatures that you see in here are dinosaurs. Those two are, and that one is. But this guy is a croc relative.

[Regina Barber]

Almost immediately, I was in awe. The ceilings were high, the plastic greenery was lush, and the pieced together dinosaur bones, they towered over me. It's so big. It's so like, I don't think people understand how big this is.

[Matt Lamanna]

Yeah, this animal's about 85ft long, probably a good 15ft tall at the hips. And as we walk around here, you can see those whiplash like tails that.

[Regina Barber]

And one of the coolest things about the Carnegie Museum is that it holds special dinosaur bones. They're called holotype specimens.

[Matt Lamanna]

So they're the specimens upon which a fossil species is based. It becomes like the gold standard for.

[Regina Barber]

That species, meaning these fossils are the reference point. Scientists can compare other similar bones to them and figure out are they part of the same species or distinct enough that they're a different, sometimes new kind of dinosaur.

[Matt Lamanna]

We have about 500 of these, these original gold standard fossils. These holotypes on display, we have prob between 10 and 20 are up here in the gallery.

[Regina Barber]

And what I didn't expect was to see the holotype of one of the most famous dinosaurs ever, believe it or not.

[Matt Lamanna]

And this is my big reveal for the tour. This is the holotype of Tyrannosaurus Rex.

[Regina Barber]

And these are like the real bones.

[Matt Lamanna]

They are the real bones. Every real bone that we have of this animal, with the exception of the eight bones from the skull, which we keep downstairs are built into this mounted skeleton. So all these people that are in here right now are looking at most of what we have, of what, by definition, the world's first fossil, the world's most famous dinosaur.

[Regina Barber]

And after I heard that I needed to see that fragile T. Rex skull downstairs, I wanted to know what happens even deeper inside the museum to those specimens in the basement. So I headed downstairs with the director of museum experience, Sarah Crawford.

[Sarah Crawford]

Most of our collection are things that people probably never see if you're just the general public, but scientists see them.

[Regina Barber]

And guess what? So did I. So today on the show, I'll be taking you with me to learn about what science is happening in the bowels of the museum basement and touch a fossil from around 67 million years ago. I'm Regina Barber, and you're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Edward Jones. What does it mean to live a rich life? It means brave first leaps, tearful goodbyes, and everything in between. With over a hundred years of experience navigating the ups and downs of the market and of life, your Edward Jones financial advisor will be there to help you move ahead with confidence. Because with all you've done to find your rich, they'll do all they can to help you keep enjoying it. Edward Jones, Member, SIPC this message comes.

[Regina Barber]

From BetterHelp President Fernando Madera shares BetterHelp's commitment to expanding access to therapy. Our State of Stigma report helped us understand that believing in mental health is easy, but asking for help is not. Now, with the report on our hands, we can work to make mental health care more accessible.

[Sarah Crawford]

To get matched with a therapist, visit.

[Regina Barber]

Betterhelp.Com NPR for 10% off your first month. Okay, short wavers. We have descended into the research and archive basement of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History, where I was chatting with Sarah Crawford and Sarah Davis, a paleobiologist. While it surprised me that I would be directing my questions across two people with the same name. So what was your so Sarah Davis. Sarah Crawford. Sarah Crawford. It also surprised me just how much I suddenly was privy to everything that I and all the guests in the floor above were completely unaware of.

[Sarah Davis]

As you walk down the hall, this is the big bone room, and we have a little bone room that's the size of the room, not the size of the bones. Most of the dinosaurs are over here, but then we have things like mammoths and mastodons and rhinos across the hall. So Our big stuff is spread out.

[Sarah Crawford]

And the other kind of factor is there's just so much. There's so much. And so this is something that visitors are always surprised by. Like, you have 22 million objects in your care. Like, you know, when are those going to go out on floor? You know, they're not here just for exhibition. They're mostly for research purposes.

[Regina Barber]

It's also kind of a math problem. 22 million objects is a lot of objects for any place, even a large museum.

[Sarah Crawford]

We only have 100,000 square feet roughly of space. And so, you know, anytime we, you know, take something out on the floor, we have to pretty much put something else away. So it's just a lot of choices.

[Regina Barber]

One of the first things Sarah Davis showed me was the T Rex jawbone, the one that was missing from the display upstairs. Oh, here we. Oh, my gosh, that looks so cool.

[Sarah Davis]

So this diagram here is showing the entire what we have from the skeleton of that individual. And the whole body is on exhibit upstairs in Dinosaur Hall. But the skull is down here.

[Regina Barber]

The jawbone was a little shorter than the length of my arm and browned with age. It was laying flat, safe in a drawer.

[Sarah Davis]

And that's for several reasons. One, it is very heavy. It takes two people to lift this, takes about three people to lift this one. And then we actually do flip these so you can see both sides, and it's a whole ordeal.

[Regina Barber]

And like we mentioned earlier, they're not just tucked in the basement because of their weight.

[Sarah Davis]

So people come here specifically to study Tyrannosaurus Rex and they want to see the holotype. So the skull has a lot of really important information on the biology, the identity of these animals. And so keeping this down in the collection makes it more accessible for science.

[Regina Barber]

And again, this is the T Rex holotype, the reference point that scientists use for every other T Rex fossil that gets discovered in Ever. So given how important the bones were, I was shocked to my core when Sarah Davis reached out and touched them. You straight up touched it? Oh, my gosh. No, the bone.

[Sarah Davis]

Oh, that's my job. But also that there are certain things like this I know is relatively stable.

[Regina Barber]

Can I touch the bone?

[Sarah Davis]

You can, yeah.

[Regina Barber]

Oh, my God. Okay, I'm done. That's right. I touched a 67 million year old fossil, something other paleontologists came from around the world to study in this bone room. But that line between research and public consumption isn't always so clear as it was with the T Rex skull. Sometimes the bones that scientists need to study Aren't in the basement or easily accessible. They're already on display in an exhibit, maybe in a pile of bones to accurately represent the world Millions of years ago.

[Sarah Davis]

We actually do have scientists go on exhibit and study things while visitors are around.

[Sarah Crawford]

What?

[Sarah Davis]

Yeah, Actually, this week, we've had a visitor come in looking at coelophysis, which is a small theropod, Triassic age, from New Mexico. It's, like, about Great Dane height. One of the earliest known theropod dinosaurs, I think. Very cute.

[Regina Barber]

So cute. How could they not put them on display for all these adoring, curious kids and adults?

[Sarah Davis]

They lived in, like, groups, and we actually have these huge fossil assemblages of them where they've died and been swept into a river basin. So there's of plenty. Piles of skeletons. We have one of those piles of skeletons on exhibit in the dinosaur hall. And our visitor that's here all week is studying Coelophysis. He had to go in the exhibit yesterday. Like, crouch down in the exhibit, look at the bones. And so I had. I was, like, standing outside the exhibit as kids were coming up, being like, that guy's not supposed to be here.

[Regina Barber]

And I'm like, tell him to get out.

[Sarah Davis]

Well, then one kid wanted to join. They were like, well, I'll see the dinosaur. And I was like, we'll see the dinosaur from over here.

[Regina Barber]

And that got me thinking. When the curators want to put these fossils on display, when they're pulled out of the basement and placed in an exhibit, how are they protected from damage? But Sarah Crawford told me not to worry. The scientists are thinking all about that all the time.

[Sarah Crawford]

I mean, you have to think about all these things before something goes on exhibition. But then after it's on exhibition, we also have to keep an eye out for, like, sound levels in the space and other things.

[Regina Barber]

Why?

[Sarah Crawford]

Because even vibrations of sound can move the specimens and over time, could cause damage. So we just had an evening event a couple weeks ago, and we had musicians playing violins. And I was like, violins? You know, like, that should be fine. But we have very specific sound levels. They can't go above that, or the bones could vibrate, and that could cause some damage.

[Sarah Davis]

But.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, let's get back to the treasures in the basement. After the T. Rex bones, we went through a series of rooms to check out more stuff, like all the ways the bones are cleaned and the sandboxes the fossils rested in between. I even saw a whole room that housed just one animal.

[Sarah Davis]

This is kind of a holding room.

[Regina Barber]

Oh, my God. What is that. That's so huge. That was terrifying. And it was like dark. I know.

[Sarah Davis]

You felt spooky.

[Regina Barber]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Davis]

Okay, this is a mastodon, American mastodon, Very old, and it comes from Indiana, but was found on a farmer's land and then donated to the museum.

[Regina Barber]

A surprising amount of fossils get acquired that way. At least. I was surprised how common it seemed. What was less common was the dinosaur skin I saw. And then rounding out our basement adventure, fossils from a recent expedition in Antarctica.

[Sarah Davis]

And then a lot of marine reptiles. So this is a plesiosaur or a long necked marine reptile. This is one of their vertebrae. It's broken here and here. But it would have also been a really large animal and crustacean. So this is a lobster.

[Regina Barber]

That's really. Oh, my gosh. It's a lobster claw. Oh, my God. Okay, how old is this lobster claw?

[Sarah Davis]

66 million years old. What about roughly end of the Cretaceous?

[Regina Barber]

Looks so delicious.

[Sarah Davis]

I know.

[Regina Barber]

But to Sarah Crawford, it isn't the individual fossils that give her that awe she feels when she comes to work every day.

[Sarah Crawford]

It's that feeling when we were turning the wheel and you're hearing that sound of the shelves moving. Like the smell of going into collections. Like, I'm an art kid, I'm not a scientist. I don't have the kind of background that Sarah has or that Matt has. You know, I never expected in a million years to be hanging out here with dinosaurs. Never, ever, ever. And there's just so many details and so many feelings that you get when you walk into a collection that it's just like impossible to communicate. That sound, that smell of the mothballs, these drawers that have these, like, really ornate handles. There's, you know, you have.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, they're like Victorian handles.

[Sarah Crawford]

Yeah. And you have like little details, like handwritten labels with, you know, reams of signs, information. It's just like that feeling of going behind the scenes into collections is something that I wish I could communicate to every visitor. And that's what I'm chasing after with every exhibition is like, how do I give people that feeling that I feel so privileged to have, going behind the scenes and being this close to, like, these amazing specimens.

[Regina Barber]

As I left the bone room and walked back to the main floor, I saw more visitors walking through the dinosaur exhibit that I had seen in the morning. Little kids were smiling and running up to certain displays. And it felt like the perfect end to my journey seeing the whole museum ecosystem, science, community, play, and gift shops. Because, you know, you always exit through the gift shop. If you like this episode, check out our episodes on how realistic movie dinosaurs are and our episode on how scientists know birds are dinosaurs. We link to them in our show Notes this episode was produced by Hannah Chin and edited by our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones checked the facts. Robert Rodriguez was the audio engineer. Bette Donovan is our vice president for podcasting. I'm Regina Barber. Thank you for listening to Short Wave from N.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Foreign. This message comes from Greenlight Parents say financial literacy is the hardest life skill to teach. Greenlight's debit card and money app for families makes it easy for kids to learn to earn, save and spend wisely. Start today, risk [e-mail] NPR this message comes from Vanta. What's your 2am security worry? Is it, do I have the right controls in place, or are my vendors secure? Enter Vanta. Vanta automates manual work so you can stop sweating over spreadsheets, chasing audit evidence and filling out endless questionnaires. Their trust management platform continuously monitors your systems, centralizes your data, and simplifies your security at scale. Get started advanced.com that's V A N T A dot com this message comes.

[Regina Barber]

From Bombas when you're playing sports, you're focused. Your socks should be too. Bombas engineers socks to fight sweat and cushion impact for every sport. Visit bombas.com NPR and use code NPR.

[Sarah Crawford]

For 20% off your first purchase.