Could our trash become local fishes’ treasure?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Short Wave – “Could Our Trash Become Local Fishes’ Treasure?”

Podcast: Short Wave
Hosts: Emily Kwong (NPR) & guest Eva Tesfai
Air date: February 24, 2026
Duration: ~15 minutes
Theme: Exploring the science, environmental impact, and social debates surrounding artificial reefs—especially those made from human-made debris—off the Gulf Coast, with a focus on Alabama.

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Overview

In this episode of Short Wave, Emily Kwong and Eva Tesfai, now a coastal reporter at WWNO New Orleans, take listeners on a “Nature Quest” to investigate a fascinating question: Can trash ever be good for the environment? Specifically, they explore the practice of creating artificial reefs in the Gulf of Mexico—often from unconventional objects like washing machines and helicopters—and ask why fish are drawn to these ocean “junkyards,” what their impact is on fish populations, and how this practice reshapes the ecology, economy, and ethics of the coast.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Origins and Rationale for Artificial Reefs

• Historic Practice:
  • Since the 1980s, objects like “Cobra helicopters, old washing machines tied together, sunken strip boats, car, old voting machines” (Sean Powers, 00:42) have been sunk in the Gulf of Mexico to create artificial reefs for fish habitats.
• Intentions:
  • Fishermen realized any hard structure attracts fish. These became known as “honey holes”—reliable fishing spots.
    • “In Mississippi, we call that a honey hole. And if you can go [to] the honey hole and catch fish every time, you gonna keep going back.” (Mike Ezell, 01:09)
• Regulation:
  • Modern reefs use safer materials like concrete and limestone, and are now subject to strict laws.

Geographic Hotspots for Artificial Reefs

• Global Leaders:
  • Japan (using artificial reefs since the 1600s).
  • Surprisingly, Alabama—with just 53 miles of coastline, it boasts over 10,000 artificial reefs, making it one of the world’s “capitals” for these structures. (01:57)
• Alabama’s Motivation:
  • Artificial reefs help replenish sport fish populations, particularly red snapper, which nearly collapsed from overfishing in the 1990s but later rebounded.

How Artificial Reefs Work

• Ecological Mechanism:
  • The Gulf Coast seabed is mostly “vast, empty, sandy bottom”—ideal for shrimp, but not reef fish (04:03).
  • Hard structures create a substrate for algae and barnacles, which provide food, and offer protection from predators.
    • “So the algae serves as the base of the food web. Then there’s small shrimp-like creatures that will feed on that, and then there’s barnacles and encrusting animals that the fish will feed on.” (Sean Powers, 05:54)
    • “When you see a shark swim through there, they will all seek the cover of the reef.” (Sean Powers, 06:21)
• Success:
  • Underwater robotic surveys show hundreds of fish congregating on new reefs within weeks.

Social and Economic Impacts

• Red Snapper’s Value:
  • “People, I think, believe it’s a constitutional right for them to be able to go out and catch their red snapper.” (Sean Powers, 07:18)
• Tourism and Economy:
  • Artificial reefs boost tourism by supporting charter fishing, restaurants that serve fresh catch, and attracting scuba divers and snorkelers (07:45).
• Promotional Efforts:
  • Alabama’s tourism ads explicitly tie the coast’s appeal to artificial reefs (08:11).

Drawbacks and Debates

• Shrimping Industry Opposition:
  • Artificial reefs obstruct trawl nets and make areas off-limits for shrimpers, causing financial loss (08:44).
    • “If they accidentally trawl over one of these artificial reefs, their equipment could get damaged, so they’ll lose time and money.” (Eva Tesfai, 08:51)
• Scientific Debate—Attraction vs. Production:
  • Do reefs produce more fish (increasing total population) or just attract existing fish, making them easier to catch and potentially harm populations?
    • “The artificial reefs might not be producing more fish at all. They might just be attracting the fish to a place...and then the fishermen catch them and that doesn’t allow them to live longer and reproduce.” (Eva Tesfai, 09:46)
  • The answer depends on location and accessibility—reefs closer to shore may make overfishing easier; those further out or near estuaries may genuinely boost fish populations (10:18).

The Bigger Ethical and Philosophical Questions

• Human Impact:
  • “We are altering the ecosystem, and that’s what humans do. They alter the ecosystem.” (Sean Powers, 11:18)
  • Ethical considerations of manipulating nature for economic gain and human recreation.
• Reconsidering Growth:
  • “As humans, are we willing to acknowledge that maybe sometimes it just has to be enough? Maybe I don’t need to catch more fish... It’s an uncomfortable question because it runs counter to some of the most powerful concepts running through society, which is positive economic growth, capitalism, other concepts that extend well beyond reefs.” (Edward Camp, 11:59)
• The Push and Pull:
  • Ongoing tension between improving artificial reef design and asking whether there should be limits to our exploitation of marine resources (12:21).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s trash. Why would people be dumping trash into the Gulf of Mexico?” – Emily Kwong (00:52)
• “So the first one is Japan... The other one... Alabama.” – Eva Tesfai (01:47)
• “Within a matter of weeks, algae and barnacles will start to grow.” – Eva Tesfai (05:49)
• “People, I think, believe it’s a constitutional right for them to be able to go out and catch their red snapper.” – Sean Powers (07:18)
• “If they accidentally trawl over one of these artificial reefs, their equipment could get damaged, so they’ll lose time and money.” – Eva Tesfai (08:51)
• “We are altering the ecosystem... They alter the ecosystem.” – Sean Powers (11:18)
• “Maybe sometimes it just has to be enough. Maybe I don’t need to catch more fish.” – Edward Camp (11:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:34–01:28 — Early days: strange objects used to make artificial reefs, intent and immediate impact
• 01:47–02:24 — The surprising global leaders in artificial reefs: Japan & Alabama
• 04:03–06:12 — How artificial reefs attract and support marine life
• 06:41–08:11 — Alabama’s economic interest; tourism and fishing industries thrive
• 08:44–09:46 — Drawbacks for shrimpers and introduction of “attraction vs. production” debate
• 10:18–12:21 — Scientific and ethical debates; potential reforms and philosophical questions
• 11:59–12:21 — Reflective quote from Edward Camp on societal values and limits

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Episode Tone and Style

• Language: Conversational, accessible, and lightly humorous.
• Approach: Balanced reporting with a blend of practical science, local stories, and philosophical reflection.

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Conclusion

The episode blends science, local color, and environmental philosophy to explore the surprising benefits and unresolved questions around turning “trash” into artificial reefs. While Alabama’s experiment has aided fish populations and local economies, it ignites serious debate about the limits and ethics of molding nature for human ends. As Eva Tesfai says, the answer to whether trash can become “fishes’ treasure” is both “push and pull”—and as always, complicated.

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Transcript

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[Emily Kwong]

You're listening to Short Wave from npr. Hey, short waivers. Emily Kwong here. And for this month's NatureQuest, I'm joined by Eva Tesfai, former shortwave producer and the current coastal reporter at WW New Orleans Public Radio. Hi, Eva.

[Eva Tesfai]

Hey, Emily. So did you know that in the 80s people purposefully dumped a lot of weird stuff in the Gulf of Mexico?

[Sean Powers]

I've done Cobra helicopters, old washer machines tied together does a sunken strip but car old boating machines tied together.

[Emily Kwong]

It's trash. Why would people be dumping trash into the Gulf of Mexico?

[Eva Tesfai]

They were trying to create artificial reefs. Those are man made structures placed in the water to create habitat for fish. Fishermen realized they could put pretty much anything in the water and the fish would gather around it.

[Mike Ezell]

In Mississippi, we call that a honey hole. And if you can go the honey hole and catch fish every time, you gonna keep going back.

[Eva Tesfai]

That's Mississippi House Representative Republican Mike Ezell. He and some others recently introduced a bipartisan bill to streamline a federal program that turns retired oil rigs into artificial reefs.

[Emily Kwong]

This is so interesting. I've never heard of artificial reefs as a way to attract fish.

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah, Emily, there are two places in the world with the largest amount of reefs. Can you guess which ones they are?

[Emily Kwong]

Like Australia, I guess. I'm thinking of the Great Barrier Reef, though. Like, these are not. This is a washing machine reef. So where?

[Eva Tesfai]

So the first one is Japan, which by some accounts has been using artificial reefs since the 1600s to attract fish.

[Emily Kwong]

Huge fishing economy in Japan. That makes sense. Okay, what's the other one?

[Eva Tesfai]

The other one, I don't think you would have guessed. It's the state of Alabama. Alabama has a tiny stretch of coastline, just 53 miles. So that's really small compared to like Japan or even Louisiana. But that coastline hosts more than 10,000 artificial reefs and most of them have been put there just in the last 30 years. And so I wanted to answer a question for myself. Can trash ever be a good thing for the environment?

[Emily Kwong]

Today on the show, artificial reefs. What makes fish attracted to them and why? Alabama has become one of the artificial reef capitals of the world. You're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.

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[Emily Kwong]

Okay, Eva. So this segment is known as Nature Quest, where we try to figure out a mystery unfolding in a local ecosystem. And I gotta say, the question of why fish would be attracted to an ocean junkyard is one of the strangest mysteries I've ever heard. How does that even happen?

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah, so I should clarify. There are laws now regulating what you can put in the water.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay.

[Eva Tesfai]

It's less helicopters and washing machines nowadays and usually these reefs designed out of concrete and rocks. But to answer your earlier question, most of the Gulf coast has this vast, empty, sandy bottom. It's a really great habitat for shrimp, which, you know, is good for the Gulf's big commercial shrimping industry. But to find the hard structures that reef fish are attracted to, you have to go pretty far offshore. Back in the 80s, people start to realize fish would be attracted to basically any hard structure you put in the water. The washing machines, the helicopters, the voting machines.

[Emily Kwong]

Interesting. Why would fish be attracted to any hard structure? How does that even work?

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah, so I spoke to a scientist at the University of South Alabama in Mobile to answer that question. His name is Sean Powers, and he showed me this underwater video of a cargo container that was converted into an artificial reef. So we'll use that as an example.

[Sean Powers]

That's an old cargo container that's been weighted down to put there, and it's kind of rusted a little away.

[Eva Tesfai]

And you want to put it somewhere where it's not going to interfere with exactly existing reefs, which is why the Gulf coast with its empty bottom is perfect.

[Sean Powers]

The other thing you can see is that what that system would be is just sand. Those fish would not be there if it wasn't for that reef.

[Eva Tesfai]

And in Alabama, they've designated A thousand square mile zone where you can put the artificial reefs. One person I talked to that designs artificial reefs said he finds Florida limestone works best for attracting sea life.

[Emily Kwong]

Shout out Florida limestone. Okay, so what happens next after it's

[Eva Tesfai]

dropped in the water? Within a matter of weeks, algae and barnacles will start to grow.

[Sean Powers]

So the algae serves as the base of the food web. Then there's small shrimp like creatures that will feed on that, and then there's barnacles and encrusting animals that the fish will feed on.

[Eva Tesfai]

So that's what attracts the fish, which is really the goal.

[Emily Kwong]

Food.

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah. And Sean says they're attracted to the container, one, because of the food and two, because of the protection it offers from predators.

[Sean Powers]

When you see a shark swim through there, they will all seek the COVID of the reef.

[Eva Tesfai]

So in the video we watched, there were hundreds of fish. And that's a fact because the university sends out these ocean robots to film the reefs and see how successful the reefs are. And it turns out they are pretty successful. Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

Can you talk about that more, Eva? Like, what's in it for the state of Alabama to support artificial reefs?

[Eva Tesfai]

So in Alabama, the goal is really to attract these coveted fish that sports fishermen like to catch, like, for example, grouper and a Gulf coast favorite, red snapper. Some listeners might already know that the population of red snapper in the Gulf was on the brink of collapse in the 90s due to overfishing. It's recovered now, partly thanks to federal and state governments dealing with the overfishing in various ways. But here's a quote from Sean to give you an understanding of how important red snapper is in Alabama.

[Sean Powers]

People, I think, believe it's a constitutional right for them to be able to go out and catch their red snapper.

[Eva Tesfai]

I actually checked the Alabama Constitution, and obviously the right to capture red snapper is not actually in there, but. But the right to hunt and fish is really, huh?

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Eva Tesfai]

And almost everybody I talked to in Alabama said the artificial reefs also help the population of red snapper recover in those waters.

[Emily Kwong]

Wow.

[Eva Tesfai]

Plus, artificial reefs have been huge for Alabama's coastal tourism economies. So there's all these charter fishermen there that will take people out to fish for sport. And I talked to about five of them, and all but one fishes off of some sort of artificial reef. There's also, you know, seaside restaurants that serve fish like snapper. There's hotels, snorkeling, scuba diving. Even the tourism ads for Alabama's beaches reference the artificial reefs.

[Mike Ezell]

Did you know the waters off Of Gulf Shores and Orange beach, Alabama are considered some of the richest in the country. This area is also home to one of the country's largest artificial fishing reefs. Come discover a new state of excitement when you reel in the big one on the Alabama.

[Sean Powers]

Wow.

[Emily Kwong]

My environmental brain, though, is wondering like, are there any. There have to be some drawbacks to putting man made structures in the water to become reefs, right?

[Eva Tesfai]

Well, yes, of course. So you know how I said the empty sandy bottom off the gulf coast is better for shrimp?

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah.

[Eva Tesfai]

So probably one of the most vocal opponents to artificial reefs are shrimpers.

[Emily Kwong]

Shrimpers like people who catch shrimp in the gulf.

[Eva Tesfai]

And so they're trawling. So they're like dragging these nets across the the ocean floor. And if they accidentally trawl over one of these artificial reefs, their equipment could get damaged, so they'll lose time and money. And that makes areas functionally off limits to shrimpers.

[Emily Kwong]

Though trawling isn't good for the environment either because of the bycatch issue when you pick up stuff that you're not supposed to catch. Complicated. Complicated. Are there any other drawbacks?

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah. So the other drawback has to do with this scientific debate called attraction versus production. And this is a question for any habitat you're creating, even on land. The question is, are these reefs actually producing more fish than were here before?

[Emily Kwong]

Wait, so by producing you mean like, is the fish population that's coming having babies in. In ways they wouldn't if the reef were not here?

[Eva Tesfai]

Yes. Is it becoming a habitat for the fish? And are there more fish in the end?

[Mike Ezell]

Yeah.

[Eva Tesfai]

But on the other side, fishermen are the ones placing down these reefs, 80% of them. So the artificial reefs might not be producing more fish at all. They might just be attracting the fish to a place where they're EAs and then the fishermen catch them and that doesn't allow them to live longer and reproduce?

[Emily Kwong]

I was wondering about this. If in fact the reefs were concentrations of fish, but the biomass wasn't like increasing because of them, you know.

[Eva Tesfai]

Exactly. That's the question.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah. Do we know the answer?

[Eva Tesfai]

The answer, according to Sean's research, depends on how close you place the reefs to the shore and therefore how easy it is for fishermen to access. And so a lot of Sean's research now is about planning where these reefs go a bit more to make sure the reefs are more on the production side. That includes putting them further away from the coast so that fishermen can't get to them as easily. But it also means putting some more inshore closer to the estuary where baby fish can use them to survive longer.

[Emily Kwong]

So in both cases, it's like taking the reefs outside the sweet spot for fishermen.

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah, exactly.

[Emily Kwong]

I mean, big picture, Eva, the fish wouldn't be there if the reefs weren't there. So, like, are there ethical questions that come up for you or. Or came up for any of the scientists you talk to?

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah, I mean, I asked a few scientists about this. It's always interesting when you're asking scientists to get a little philosophical. And Sean, you know, he would say, yes, that's exactly right. We are altering the environment. But that's what humans do.

[Sean Powers]

It's a value decision because the public and the state resource agencies and even the federal agencies have decided that transition is worth more to the public. Now, that worth could be dollars. That worth could be enjoyment. But, yeah, we are altering the ecosystem, and that's what humans do. They alter the ecosystem.

[Eva Tesfai]

But I also spoke to Edward Camp. He's a scientist at the University of Florida that looks at how governments manage fisheries and aquaculture. And when I asked him this, he got very thoughtful and quiet. And basically, maybe we need to rethink how we manage fisheries entirely as humans,

[Edward Camp]

are we willing to acknowledge that maybe sometimes it just has to be enough? Maybe I don't need to catch more fish. Maybe I don't have to always catch larger fish. It's an uncomfortable question because it runs counter to some of the most powerful concepts running through society, which is positive economic growth, capitalism, other concepts that extend well beyond reefs.

[Eva Tesfai]

You know, lately, as I report in Louisiana, I struggle with this idea that humans in nature are these separate things where one imposes its will on the other. People have been using some form of artificial reefs for centuries, and even though here on the Gulf coast, we haven't always been doing them in the most environmentally friendly way, like the washing machines. I think there's people like Sean Powers that are out there trying to make them better. And then I think there's also people like Edward Camp asking that question of when do we stop? When is it enough?

[Emily Kwong]

The push and pull. I am so glad you came on the show. Thank you so much for sharing with us what you found at the bottom of the sea.

[Eva Tesfai]

Eva, thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be back.

[Emily Kwong]

If you liked this episode, make sure to follow us on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts, because it really helps the show. And if you want to learn more about artificial reefs, check out WWNO's podcast, Sea Change. Eva and her colleagues have more reporting there too.

[Eva Tesfai]

Yeah, I went to Alabama and I met a charter fisherman, a chef, an artificial reef builder. Two of those people are reality TV stars. You'll have to listen to find out who Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Emily Kwong]

Also short waivers. If you have a question about how your local environment is changing, email it to us, Record a voice memo and send it to ShortwavePR.org, we may look into it for a Future episode of NatureQuest. This episode was produced by Hannah Chin. It was edited by Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones, Check the facts. Robert Rodriguez was the audio engineer. Sam Poulson composed and produced our Nature Quest theme music. We publish new episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening to Short Wave from N.

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