Could Wormholes Exist?

Summary

Short Wave: Could Wormholes Exist?

Host: Regina Barber
Guest: Ron Gamble, Theoretical Physicist
Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction to Wormholes

In the episode titled "Could Wormholes Exist?" Regina Barber delves into the intriguing concept of wormholes—hypothetical passages through spacetime that could potentially enable instantaneous travel across vast cosmic distances. Drawing listeners in with references from popular culture, Regina sets the stage for a deep dive into the scientific underpinnings and the tantalizing possibilities these cosmic portals present.

Regina Barber [00:16]:
"Wormholes are a funky but possible solution to Albert Einstein's famous equations for the theory of general relativity. These theoretical cosmic portals can shorten a trip from hundreds of light years to minutes. Wormholes have been a mainstay of transportation in movies like Interstellar and TV shows like my favorite Star Trek."

Understanding General Relativity

To grasp the concept of wormholes, Regina introduces her guest, Ron Gamble, a theoretical physicist whose expertise lies in the intricate solutions to Einstein's equations. Ron provides a foundational overview of general relativity, emphasizing its geometric nature and its implications for the fabric of spacetime.

Ron Gamble [04:24]:
"General relativity is, in a nutshell, geometry. We're thinking about spheres, cylinders, pyramids... but there is a specific set of dimensions where general relativity works. Physics tends to work well in our reality, but general relativity describes these geometries using curved surfaces or curved spacetime."

He further elucidates how massive objects like stars and planets warp the fabric of spacetime, resulting in what we perceive as gravity. This curvature is fundamental to understanding not just black holes but also the theoretical existence of wormholes.

Ron Gamble [05:29]:
"The Earth sits in the curved surface that the sun creates. And that's why we're being attracted to it. That is, that's General relativity in a nutshell."

Exploring Wormhole Geometry

Transitioning from the general framework, Regina and Ron delve into the specifics of wormhole structure. Using vivid analogies, Ron paints a picture of how wormholes might function within the cosmos.

Regina Barber [06:10]:
"So very plainly, I would kind of describe the wormhole like a subway tube. So you get in on one side, let's say at Penn Station in New York, and you get off at Grand Central. But instead of traveling underground like a subway, you're tunneling through spacetime itself and emerging on another side."

Ron critiques the commonly used rubber sheet analogy for explaining spacetime curvature, proposing a more accurate representation using putty to capture the multidimensional aspects of general relativity.

Ron Gamble [07:19]:
"I tend to use putty. You can ball it up into whatever shape you want and then deform it and curve it and spin it around. And now you're getting all of the physics that's kind of involved in the different configurations of space and time."

This discussion leads to a more refined understanding of black holes and white holes, contrasting the simplistic "pothole" metaphor with the reality of these celestial objects as squished spheres that rotate, much like the depictions in Interstellar.

Ron Gamble [08:24]:
"Black holes are not holes in space; they're spheres. And so they're actually squished spheres because they're rotating."

The Challenges of Wormhole Existence

Despite the fascinating theoretical framework, the existence of wormholes remains speculative. Ron outlines the primary barriers to their existence, focusing on the necessity of exotic matter and the complexities of higher-dimensional travel.

Ron Gamble [09:19]:
"One of the requirements for a wormhole is you need exotic matter. You need matter that's pushing out. It's like anti-gravity. We would need very weird atoms or something to hold the wormhole together and keep it open."

He further explains the need for an additional dimension to facilitate wormhole traversal, introducing the concept of hyperspace as a medium for such travel, reminiscent of the methods used in Star Trek and Star Wars.

Ron Gamble [10:46]:
"It could have a fifth dimension. So that you can have the ability to travel through it. And this is where we get the idea of hyperspace."

Why Haven't We Found Wormholes?

The conversation then shifts to the skepticism surrounding wormholes within the scientific community. Ron emphasizes the lack of empirical evidence and the immense technological advancements that would be required to detect or create a wormhole.

Ron Gamble [12:50]:
"It's mainly because we can't test it. It's still kind of looked at as science fiction. We have real mathematical solutions, but in terms of something being viably testable, because that's the scientific method, we have to recreate it."

He posits that if a wormhole were to be discovered, it would likely be the product of an advanced civilization or perhaps even a construct from the future.

Ron Gamble [12:26]:
"It does suggest that something created it and not it being kind of naturally occurring because it seems unnatural to exist."

The Importance of Theoretical Research

Despite the challenges, Ron advocates for continued theoretical exploration of wormholes. He draws parallels to past innovations, asserting that what was once deemed fiction can become reality with persistent scientific inquiry.

Ron Gamble [14:05]:
"At one point, space travel was fiction. Quantum mechanics was fiction. So I look at all of these theories, and this is kind of my motivation as a theoretical physicist, that someone has to work on these problems creatively to generate advancements in technologies decades later."

Conclusion: A Glimmer of Hope

As the episode wraps up, Regina expresses a renewed sense of optimism about the possibility of wormholes, reflecting the broader sentiment that while wormholes remain theoretical, the pursuit of such knowledge is integral to scientific progress.

Regina Barber [14:54]:
"Ron, thank you so much for talking with us today. I've become slightly more hopeful for the existence of wormholes."

Ron Gamble [15:02]:
"That's great. Thank you for having me. This was fantastic."

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Key Takeaways

• Wormholes Defined: Hypothetical passages through spacetime that could enable instant travel across vast distances.

• General Relativity: Einstein's theory describing how mass warps spacetime, fundamental to understanding gravity and potential wormhole structures.

• Analogies Matter: Traditional rubber sheet models are inadequate; putty better represents the multidimensional nature of spacetime.

• Exotic Matter Required: Wormholes would need matter with anti-gravitational properties to remain open, a major barrier to their existence.

• Technological Hurdles: Current technology is far from being able to detect or create wormholes, keeping them within the realm of theoretical physics and science fiction.

• Future Possibilities: Continued theoretical research may one day bridge the gap between speculative science and practical application, much like past scientific advancements.

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Notable Quotes

• Regina Barber [00:16]:
  "Wormholes have been a mainstay of transportation in movies like Interstellar and TV shows like my favorite Star Trek."

• Ron Gamble [04:24]:
  "General relativity is, in a nutshell, geometry."

• Ron Gamble [09:19]:
  "One of the requirements for a wormhole is you need exotic matter."

• Ron Gamble [14:05]:
  "At one point, space travel was fiction. Quantum mechanics was fiction."

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Final Thoughts

"Could Wormholes Exist?" serves as an enlightening exploration of one of the most fascinating concepts in theoretical physics. Through engaging dialogue and clear explanations, Regina Barber and Ron Gamble make the complex subject of wormholes accessible to a broad audience, inspiring both curiosity and a deeper appreciation for the mysteries of our universe.

Transcript

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[Regina Barber]

You're listening to Shortwave from NPR. Space. I love it and the things inside of it. Us, of course, stars and galaxies. I studied and I even love the other cool hypothetical stuff that mostly lives in science fiction, like wormholes. Wormholes are a funky but possible solution to Albert Einstein's famous equations for the theory of general relativity. These theoretical cosmic portals can shorten a trip from hundreds of light years to minutes. Wormholes have been a mainstay of transportation in movies like Interstellar.

[Ron Gamble]

There, that's.

[Regina Barber]

That's it.

[Ron Gamble]

That's the wormhole.

[Regina Barber]

And TV shows like my favorite Star Trek, the aliens who live in the wormhole, as you call them, which Ron Gamble says is not far off from how scientists think about these wormholes.

[Ron Gamble]

It's very much like a bridge. You can do this thought experiment yourself. You take a sheet of paper, you fold it kind of like in half, and you poke a pencil hole right through the middle. And that is essentially a wormhole. It connects two points in space and time together.

[Regina Barber]

Ron's a theoretical physicist and he wrote his PhD on funky solutions to Einstein's equations for general relativity, like wormholes. Basically, he did this by studying spacetime, the four dimensional existence we all live in. It includes three dimensions of space and one dimension of time moving forward as that fourth dimension. And general relativity talks about how spacetime itself has a shape to it, a shape that is distorted by all of the wonders inside of it, all the beautiful stars, planets, galaxies, black holes. Their distortion of spacetime is gravity. And if you push that gravity to its extreme, you get black holes. And some physicists theorize that white holes could also exist and that would be the opposite to a black hole. They'd push out matter instead of consuming it. And the thing that could connect them is a wormhole. But scientists have never seen one. And as a lifelong Trekkie, I have long wanted to know, could we ever or are wormholes purely science fiction?

[Ron Gamble]

I think according to the physics, there is a non zero chance that we could find a wormhole.

[Regina Barber]

So you're saying there's a chance?

[Ron Gamble]

I think if we find a wormhole, that means someone else created it.

[Regina Barber]

So today on the show wormholes, the geometry of Space, Time and how to a theoretical physicist, if the math checks out, you can't rule it out. I'm Regina Barber and you're Listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

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[Regina Barber]

Okay, Ron, let's start with hard stuff today. Honestly, because like, before we can talk about like fun wormholes, we kind of need to talk about Einstein's theory of general relativity. And this seems like kind of jargony, but it has been talked about in movies. Can you help us out? Can you summarize the theory of general relativity?

[Ron Gamble]

General relativity is, in a nutshell. It is geometry. Cubes. We're thinking about spheres, cylinders, pyramids. Pyramids, tetrahedrons. Pick your favorite geometry. Yeah, but there is a specific set of dimensions where general relativity works and it does not. We have found that in dimensions of three. So we're talking about xyz, up, down, left, Right. And the added dimension of time. Right. Physics tends to work. Or our reality tends to be well behaved, like a well behaved child. Right. But the difference here is that general relativity describes these geometries using curved surfaces or curved space time. How does event A and event B relate to each other? Through a curved surface, which is just a. A webbing of multiple events in between the two. So you can think of like a.

[Regina Barber]

Planet going around, like Earth going around.

[Ron Gamble]

The sun, Earth going around the sun. You know, if the Earth has mass, the sun has mass. The Earth is actually going to be more attracted to the sun. It will. They both will pull on each other. But the Earth sits in the curved surface that the sun creates. And that's why we're being attracted to it. That is, that's General relativity in a nutshell.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Regina Barber]

Like. Like the things at the mall where you put the coin in. That's what I would always say to my students.

[Ron Gamble]

It is a perfect example.

[Regina Barber]

Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Space is curving. And one consequence of, like, that curving is wormholes. Like, can you describe a wormhole?

[Ron Gamble]

So very plainly, I would kind of describe the wormhole like a subway tube. So you get in on one on one side. So let's say you're getting in on Penn Station in New York and you get off at Grand Central. But the in between. Right. So just like, the subway's going underground. The wormhole is kind of like what we call, like, a hyperspace. So you're not actually, you know, traveling. Like, if you were on the surface, you're kind of tunneling through space time itself and then coming out on another side. So it's a. It's a very weird kind of, like, physical attribute.

[Regina Barber]

I love it. Okay. And like we said earlier, right, like, the tunneling of a wormhole is this, like, connection from a black hole that consumes matter to this, like, theoretical white hole that pukes out matter somewhere else in space.

[Ron Gamble]

Yeah.

[Regina Barber]

This image is, like, hard to reconcile with, like, the classic way teachers describe space time. Like this 4D stretchy sheet. Like, think of this trampoline material with, like, a bowling ball in the center. And that's like, a star in space time. Like, how do you feel about this, like, stretchy sheet metaphor?

[Ron Gamble]

I think the rubber sheet analogy is a scam. I think it's because it doesn't actually. So, again, like, our definition of general relativity, it doesn't give you the accurate description. This is an introductory to curved surfaces and things like that.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah.

[Ron Gamble]

But it doesn't actually show you the dimensionality of space and time.

[Regina Barber]

Okay.

[Ron Gamble]

So instead of using the rubber sheet, I tended to use putty. You can ball it up into whatever shape you want and then deform it and curve it and spin it around. And now you're getting all of the physics that's kind of involved in the different configurations of space and time, which is general relativity.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. And maybe like, another complication, like, for people who have heard it, is this idea that black holes are like potholes in the fabric of space time. And we've said it before on this show because it's a great way for scientists to convey this huge amount of gravity. But in a conversation about wormholes, maybe it's too simplistic. It's better to think about a black hole as a sphere.

[Ron Gamble]

This is why Again, I say that the, the rubber sheet analogy is a scam because we assume that black holes are actually holes in space. They're not, they're spheres. And so they're actually squished spheres because they're rotating. Right.

[Regina Barber]

And so like an interstellar that. That artist.

[Ron Gamble]

Just exactly like an interstellar.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah.

[Ron Gamble]

So it's a great image. And we've seen these. We've taken pictures of black holes and galaxies and seen that they. These are circles. These are spherical objects.

[Regina Barber]

Wow.

[Ron Gamble]

And so then the next thing would be okay for a wormhole, what would it look like? If I entered a wormhole from one side, would it be a hole or would there be just some tube sitting in space? Well, no, it would be one sphere connected to another sphere.

[Regina Barber]

Okay. I love that image. It's like, it's like a dumbbell. But why are people so resistant to like wormholes existence? Like, why would we not see one in nature?

[Ron Gamble]

So one of the requirements for a wormhole is you need exotic matter.

[Regina Barber]

So like not regular matter that like clumps to itself.

[Ron Gamble]

Yeah. So you need matter that's pushing out. You need matter to keep the wormhole, so to speak, open. And that means that that is matter that's not trying to clump together like our matter that we know of. You know, if you drop a ball, it's going to fall towards the Earth. But this matter, if you drop a ball, it will repel, it will go in the opposite direction.

[Regina Barber]

And so it's like anti gravity.

[Ron Gamble]

It's like anti gravity. But in a sense that we would need, you know, we very weird atoms or something to hold the wormhole together. Hold it together and keep it open. So you need a force, you know, if you will, to push against the fabric of space time to hold it open so that you can go through.

[Regina Barber]

Right.

[Ron Gamble]

The other thing is, is that you need kind of like, so to speak, a. I would say like a fake extra dimension so that you can travel from point A to point B. If point A is in four dimensions and point B is in four dimensions, how do you get from A to B if you only have four in between? Right. So you would need kind of like an extra dimension to travel through and then fall back down into four.

[Regina Barber]

So like the wormhole itself is a fifth dimension.

[Ron Gamble]

It could have a fifth dimension. Right. So that you can have the ability to travel through it. And this is where we get the idea of like hyperspace.

[Regina Barber]

What?

[Ron Gamble]

Star Trek, Star Wars. It's all in there. They went to a hyperspace that was an Extra dimension larger than the one that they actually lived in.

[Regina Barber]

Wow.

[Ron Gamble]

To travel from point A to point B. Yeah.

[Regina Barber]

So I remember reading that, like, you were saying, you need this, like, weird matter or energy to keep wormholes open because they're going to collapse otherwise. So if we were to detect a wormhole, someone from, like, a different alien civilization would have had to make it.

[Ron Gamble]

Somebody. Yeah.

[Regina Barber]

Why would somebody have to make a wormhole? Like civilization?

[Ron Gamble]

Yeah. It's entirely based on our understanding of our, our reality. And so according to physics and the standard model of everything. Right. We have not seen any possible evidence or any clues the way matter behaves to suggest that there would be exotic matter without it escaping to use for us specifically that wormhole. So that is why most people, if you ask them, well, what would happen if we found a wormhole? That means, well, we found evidence of another civilization.

[Regina Barber]

Wow.

[Ron Gamble]

Or we put it there from the future. Right. Which is another possibility.

[Regina Barber]

But I love talking to theoretical physicists, like, anything's possible.

[Ron Gamble]

It could be. Um, but all in all, it, it does suggest that something created it and not. And not it being kind of naturally occurring because it seems unnatural to exist.

[Regina Barber]

So we're talking about all these, like, possibilities. Right. You would have to find this exotic energy, this exotic matter. But, like, so what is the main skepticism when, when you're talking to astronomers, when you're talking to other scientists, what is the main reason why wormholes is something that's kind of still in, like, the outlier research topics?

[Ron Gamble]

Yeah, it's mainly because we can't test it. So it's, it's still kind of looked at as like a science fiction. I wouldn't say it's fringe because we, we have, you know, real mathematical solutions that we can, you know, kind of simulate, if you will, but in terms of something being viably testable, because that's the scientific method, we have to recreate it. You can't test for a wormhole. You can't even create one experimentally. And so that is, I would say, the, the pushback or the, you know, the, the, the grief against wormhole research is that, you know, this is. It seems like it is decades, if not centuries of technology ahead of us. And so then the question is, well, why would you study wormholes? Well, I would say why would you not? Why? Why, why not? That is, you know, that's kind of giving us another clue about how our universe could behave and then giving the fact that we've only seen 5% of our observable universe the other 95% could have wormholes in it. And we just not looked hard enough for you.

[Regina Barber]

Why is it so important to not rule out these mathematical solutions to general relativity?

[Ron Gamble]

Because at one point, space travel was fiction. At one point, the cell phone was fiction. You know, the computer was fiction. Quantum mechanics was fiction. So I look at, you know, all of these theories, and this is kind of my motivation as a theoretical physicist, is that someone has to work on these problems but do it creatively to generate the advancements in technologies decades later. And so that is why, you know, I work on black holes and jet physics and things like that and why one would work on wormholes. Because we need somebody to solve these very, very fundamental, basic problems and do it creatively and innovatively, right? So that we can have something to advance our technologies to later on.

[Regina Barber]

Ron, thank you so much for talking with us today. I've become slightly more hopeful for the existence of wormholes.

[Ron Gamble]

That's great. Thank you for having me. This was fantastic.

[Regina Barber]

This episode was Produced by Burley McCoy, edited by showrunner Rebecca Ramirez, and fact checked by Tyler Jones. The audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley, Beth Donovan is our senior director and Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Regina Barber. Thank you for listening to Short Wave from npr.

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