Data Centers, Icy Moons And Chameleons

Summary

Podcast Summary: Short Wave – "Data Centers, Icy Moons And Chameleons"

Host(s): Emily Kwong & Regina Barber (with guest Scott Detrow)
Date: November 14, 2025
Duration: ~15 minutes

Overview

This biweekly News Roundup episode of NPR's Short Wave brings listeners up to speed on three science headlines—with the show's signature humor and accessibility. Hosts Emily Kwong and Regina Barber, joined by Scott Detrow (of All Things Considered), tackle:

• The climate impact of AI-powered data centers
• A new understanding about Saturn’s moon Enceladus and its potential for life
• Surprising discoveries about chameleons’ famously funky eyes

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. AI’s Power-Hungry Data Centers and the Climate Crisis

[03:42 – 06:17]

• The Problem:

  • AI computation depends on vast data centers that "gobble up gigawatts of energy, sometimes millions of gallons of water for cooling." (Emily Kwong, 03:52)
  • Most of this energy still comes from fossil fuels, according to research from Tian Qishi Xiao and colleagues at Cornell.

• State-by-State Impact:

  • The team created a detailed, state-by-state map of AI’s environmental toll, taking three years to complete.
  • By 2030, AI growth in the US could add "24 to 44 million metric tons of carbon dioxide" and use as much water "as 6 to 10 million Americans do every year." (Emily Kwong, 04:44)

• Tech Companies’ Climate Goals at Risk:

  • Companies like Google, Microsoft, and Meta have net-zero and water-positive goals by 2030 ("Amazon has set their net zero carbon deadline for 2040." – Regina Barber, 05:14).
  • Researchers warn these goals could be "out of reach" without addressing the energy and water needs of AI.

• Hopeful Solutions:

  • "Never despair, Scott… a big part of the study is about solutions. The biggest takeaway is location," says Emily (05:40).
  • Co-author Feng Qi Yu advises building data centers where there’s "a clean power grid and efficient cooling technology"—favoring the Midwest and "wind belt" states (Emily, 06:02).
  • "If we build AI in the right place on a clean power grid and with efficient cooling technology, it could really grow without blowing past climate and water limits." (Feng Qi Yu, 05:53)

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2. Saturn’s Enceladus: Stable Oceans, Stable Prospects for Life

[06:25 – 08:24]

• Enceladus Basics:

  • Saturn has over 270 moons; Enceladus stands out with a global ocean hidden under thick ice. This makes it a focus in the search for extraterrestrial life. (Regina Barber, 06:35)

• The Ingredient List for Life:

  • "The ingredients for life [are] liquid water, chemicals like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon." (Regina Barber, 06:52)
  • New research (Georgina Miles, Southwest Research Institute) adds another ingredient: stable heat.

• Key Study Finding:

  • Heat flow on Enceladus "seems to be pretty consistent," creating a stable ocean environment "now and probably has been for most of the moon's existence." (Emily Kwong & Regina Barber, 07:11–07:25)
  • "If it started on Enceladus, there might be something for us to see today." (Carly Howitt, planetary scientist, 07:46)

• Future Exploration:

  • The European Space Agency is proposing a mission to Enceladus. NASA’s upcoming "Dragonfly" mission goes to Titan (Saturn’s largest moon) in 2028. (Regina Barber, 08:07)

---

3. Chameleons: The Science Behind Their Bizarre Eyes

[08:24 – 10:51]

• Chameleon Weirdness:

  • "Every aspect of them is weird." (Ed Stanley, evolutionary biologist, 08:46)
  • Features include fused fingers, ballistic tongues, unique body shapes—and most notably, their eyes.

• Optic Nerve Discovery:

  • Unlike most lizards’ straight optic nerves, chameleons’ are coiled—much like old telephone cords. (Emily Kwong, 09:08)
  • This coil may allow for their famous "independently moving eyes" that scan for predators and prey at the same time. (Regina Barber, 09:35)

• How the Discovery Was Made:

  • Traditional dissection often damages delicate eye structures.
  • The research used 3D CT scans to see the internal structures undamaged—published in Scientific Reports (Regina Barber, 10:28).

• Memorable Analogy:

  • "We discovered at some point that if you made this cord twisted, you can have more range of movement." (Juan Dassa, study author, likening it to old phone cords, 10:05)
  • Emily adds: "Maybe the coil in the optic nerves of chameleons is what allows their eyes to go all catawampus like that." (Emily Kwong, 10:10)

• Fun Takeaway:

  • "I wish I could look backwards like a chameleon. I think that's my takeaway." (Scott Detrow, 10:48)
  • "And I miss phone landlines." (Scott Detrow, 10:51)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If we build AI in the right place on a clean power grid and with efficient cooling technology, it could really grow without blowing past climate and water limits."
  — Feng Qi Yu, study author (05:53)

• "Every aspect of [chameleons] is weird… fused fingers, a ballistic tongue, absolutely bizarre body shape."
  — Ed Stanley, evolutionary biologist (08:46–09:04)

• "We discovered at some point that if you made [the telephone cord] twisted, you can have more range of movement."
  — Juan Dassa, study author (10:05)

• "Maybe the coil in the optic nerves of chameleons is what allows their eyes to go all catawampus like that."
  — Emily Kwong (10:10)

---

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 03:42 | AI Data Centers and Environmental Crisis (with research insights and climate goals discussion) | | 06:25 | Enceladus, Saturn’s Ocean Moon – Heat stability and prospects for life | | 08:24 | Chameleons – New findings on optic nerves, weirdness, and analogies | | 10:48 | Hosts’ takeaways and lighthearted wrap-up |

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Tone and Style

Short Wave’s tone throughout is energetic, curious, lightly humorous, and scientifically rigorous, with the hosts and guests encouraging hope even amid serious challenges. The conversational exchanges make complex science clear and relatable, with playful banter and genuine awe on topics ranging from climate policy to animal oddities.

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This summary condenses the essential scientific findings, discussion highlights, and notable quotes so listeners (or non-listeners!) can absorb the episode’s value at a glance.

Transcript

[Announcer]

This message comes from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer center working to change the story of pancreatic cancer. And during Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month, your support goes twice as far to accelerate breakthrough treatments. Donate [e-mail] give hello, my lovely waivers.

[Emily Kwong]

It is me, your fearless co host, Emily Kwong here with a quick free ask right now on the app or platform where you're listening. Can you leave us a rating or review like this one from Tristan, who says howdy from Texas. I love y' all's show. It is always a way for me to learn more about the world, especially as a student. I learn more than I would at school listening to y'. All. But also listen to your teacher. Tristan says thanks y' all so much for being an excellent source of knowledge. Oh, listeners like Tristan, we appreciate you so much. You help people find our show. So keep it coming. Write a few bars, drop it into the review section, give us some stars, and spread the shortwave word. All right, onto the News Roundup. You're listening to Short Wave from npr.

[Regina Barber]

Hey, shortwavers. Regina Barber here and Emily Kwong with.

[Emily Kwong]

Our bi weekly science news roundup featuring the host of All Things Considered.

[Regina Barber]

And today we have one of our favorites, the amazing space nerd, Scott Detrow.

[Scott Detrow]

I'm back. I'm here. I'm thrilled. I assume we're gonna talk space, otherwise, I'm leaving. But what other stories?

[Emily Kwong]

First, we're gonna talk about AI and the kind of the energy crisis they're in, broken out by state.

[Regina Barber]

Then we're gonna talk about how scientists are learning more about an ocean moon of Saturn.

[Emily Kwong]

And finally, after going to space, we're gonna come back to Earth to talk about chameleons and what makes them so weird and cool.

[Scott Detrow]

Okay, these are two joyous interesting things and one existential downer y things, so I'll take that ratio.

[Emily Kwong]

Sounds about right.

[Regina Barber]

Excellent. You're listening to Short Wave, the Science podcast from NPR.

[Announcer]

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[Regina Barber]

Okay, Scott, we're gonna get to space, but before that one, where do you want to start?

[Scott Detrow]

Let's since it seems the least joyous, let's start with AI computing. We talk a lot about AI these days, and there's a lot of concern about the power it's sucking up.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, it truly a lot of AI computing relies on data centers. Data centers are these big buildings which gobble up gigawatts of energy, sometimes millions of gallons of water for cooling. And as tech companies try to make good on AI's potential, there is an energy crisis in the making.

[Scott Detrow]

How so?

[Regina Barber]

Well, because the majority of these data centers are powered by fossil fuels. Tian Qishi Xiao is a PhD candidate at Cornell University, and he says that if the tech industry and policymakers are not careful, the boom in AI will jeopardize our climate.

[Ed Stanley]

Progress monitoring will be much important in few years because before we know the whole picture and we may already do something very bad for our environment.

[Emily Kwong]

So this week in the journal Nature Sustainability, Tianxi's team at Cornell published a state by state portrait of the environmental impact of AI. And this map took three years to make.

[Scott Detrow]

Three years. What did it tell us? Was it worth the wait?

[Emily Kwong]

Well, using data analytics and ironically, some AI, the team determined that by 2030, at the rate of AI growth in the US would put an additional 24 to 44 million metric tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. And the team said it could use as much water as 6 to 10 million Americans do every year. All of this, the paper concludes, would put the tech industry's climate goals out of reach.

[Scott Detrow]

Can you remind me what those initial goals were or are?

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. So Google, Microsoft, and Meta have all pledged to reach net zero carbon emissions and to be water positive by 2030. Amazon has set their net zero carbon deadline for 2040. But according to this paper, AI is putting all of those climate goals in peril. We reached out to these companies. Google didn't reply, and the others declined to comment.

[Scott Detrow]

I mean, I'm hearing this and I'm feeling sad and discouraged.

[Ed Stanley]

Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

Me don't.

[Regina Barber]

Never.

[Scott Detrow]

Is that the right feeling?

[Emily Kwong]

Never despair, Scott. Ever. Because a big part of this study is about solutions. The biggest takeaway is location. Study author Feng Qi Yu says where you build a data center matters.

[Ed Stanley]

If we build AI in the right place on a clean power grid and with efficient cooling technology, it could really grow without blowing past climate and water limits.

[Emily Kwong]

Bengxi wants data centers built in places with low water stress that are already transitioning to clean energy. So spots in the Midwest and wind belt states like Texas, Montana, Nebraska, and South Dakota are good candidates. And Big Tech has been scouting future data centers in some of these states.

[Scott Detrow]

This still makes me anxious and worried, and I think it's time to change the topic to an ocean moon, which I would much rather talk about. Me.

[Announcer]

What a pivot.

[Regina Barber]

Well, me too. Me too. Scott, off Earth, I know you love space, and you might remember that Saturn has 274 confirmed moons, right?

[Scott Detrow]

Confirmed moons, yeah.

[Regina Barber]

And one of those moons is Enceladus. And it's really intriguing to scientists looking for life elsewhere in the solar system because it has an ocean covering its entire surface that's locked under a thick layer of ice. And scientists say it could be a good potential spot for life.

[Emily Kwong]

It looks like all the right ingredients are there for it. All it needs is time.

[Regina Barber]

That's Georgina Miles with the Southwest Research Institute in Colorado. And the ingredients for life she's talking about are liquid water chemicals like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon.

[Emily Kwong]

And in a new paper in the journal Science Advances, she and her colleagues write about another important ingredient, a heating source.

[Scott Detrow]

Which feels pretty important for life, huh?

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah. Turns out because if the temperatures in the ocean fluctuate too much, are too hot or too cold, that's not good for life. You want a stable heat flow process. And overall, this study found that the heat flow seems to be pretty consistent on Enceladus.

[Regina Barber]

And that means that the ocean on Enceladus is very stable. It is now and probably has been for most of the moon's existence, which.

[Scott Detrow]

I assume is another good ingredient for what we're talking about here.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, it's promising because life takes a really long time to begin and develop. Here's Carly Howitt, another author of the study and fellow planetary scientist. We know that evolution is a slow process, but if we're hopeful, if it started on Enceladus, there might be something for us to see today.

[Scott Detrow]

Something for us to see today. Does that mean we're going there? Are we sending robots there? What's the situation?

[Emily Kwong]

Not NASA, but the European Space Agency. May, Carly and Georgina are based in the uk and the European Space Agency is proposing a mission to enceladus in the 2000s.

[Regina Barber]

But there is a NASA mission going to another promising moon of Saturn, Titan. It's set to launch in 2028, which is really soon. This moon has mountains of ice and methane lakes. The lander on this mission, Dragonfly, will do close up measurements of a Titan surface.

[Scott Detrow]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Ed Stanley]

Yeah.

[Scott Detrow]

Can we also talk about chameleons? And can I make a request? My 3 year old daughter has recently started calling chameleons colorful lizards.

[Emily Kwong]

They are, it's true. They're part of a clade called Old World lizards, and they are incredibly colorful and funky.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. And Scott, let me also start with this, like stone cold, like this universal truth about these colorful lizards, these chameleons.

[Ed Stanley]

Every aspect of them is weird.

[Regina Barber]

This is Ed Stanley, an evolutionary biologist at the Florida Museum of Natural History.

[Ed Stanley]

They have fused fingers for grasping onto branches. They have all the color change stuff. They have a ballistic tongue. Their body shape is absolutely bizarre.

[Announcer]

Right.

[Ed Stanley]

Most lizards are short and wide. These ones are incredibly thin and tall.

[Emily Kwong]

And there's another trait to add to the list. They've got really weird optic nerves. Okay, so optic nerves, that's the bundle of nerve fibers that send information between the eyes and the brain. In lizards, they're more straight, but in chameleons, those optic nerves are coiled in short wave.

[Scott Detrow]

And all things considered, we love weirdos. Yeah, it's very true.

[Emily Kwong]

Three of them are in this room. Yes.

[Scott Detrow]

But in terms of our chameleon friends, why does all this weirdness matter?

[Regina Barber]

Okay, so researchers suspect it could help chameleons move their eyes in those, like, strange, twisty ways. I'm sure you've seen this before, Scott. Like when one eye of a chameleon is like moving independently from the other, like maybe one is looking at an insect for lunch and the other one's looking at another chameleon.

[Ed Stanley]

Chameleons can even look backwards. So it's really bizarre for an animal.

[Scott Detrow]

What?

[Emily Kwong]

Right, okay. This is Juan Dassa. He's one of the study authors and he compared the coils of their optic nerve to those old landline telephone cords.

[Announcer]

Oh.

[Ed Stanley]

We discovered at some point that if you made this cord twisted, you can have more range of movement.

[Emily Kwong]

Like remember the days when the phone would be in the kitchen and you could walk into the living room so your mom could extend. Yeah. You didn't want that. Maybe the coil in the optic nerves of chameleons is what allows their eyes to go all catawampus like that.

[Scott Detrow]

I mean, I'm kind of surprised this is all new information. We've all been loving chameleons for a long time.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. And scientists have dissected them. They've looked at chameleons, but that's probably why we didn't know this. So like dissections can damage the optic nerve. Researchers in this study used CT scans which allowed them to get a 3D view of the chameleons internal structures without destroying the optic nerve. They wrote about it this week in the journal Scientific Reports.

[Scott Detrow]

I wish I could look backwards like a chameleon. I think that's my takeaway.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah.

[Scott Detrow]

And I miss phone landlines.

[Regina Barber]

I kind of.

[Emily Kwong]

That's really what we wanted you to take away from this story.

[Regina Barber]

Scott, we've had a great time with you. Please come back as much as you want.

[Scott Detrow]

Always happy to be here.

[Regina Barber]

You can hear more of Scott on Consider this and Pierre's afternoon podcast about what the news means for you. This episode was produced by Daniel Offman and Rachel Carlson. It was edited by Rebecca Ramirez and Christopher Intagliota.

[Emily Kwong]

Tyler Jones checked the facts. Simon Laszlo Jansen and Kwesi Lee were the audio engineers. I'm Emily Kwong.

[Regina Barber]

And I'm Regina Barber. Thank you for listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.

[Announcer]

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