Short Wave (NPR) – "How To Disagree Better"

Release Date: November 26, 2025
Hosts: Emily Kwong & Rachel Carlson
Episode Length: ~17 mins

Overview

In this episode, Short Wave explores the science and art of disagreement—particularly how to navigate conversations with people we fundamentally disagree with. With family gatherings and heightened divisiveness in society, hosts Emily Kwong and Rachel Carlson dig into neuroscience, psychology, and practical tools to help us disagree better, featuring perspectives from long-term couple Jeannie Safer and Richard Brookhiser, and insights from leading researchers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Landscape of Disagreement

• Divisiveness Is Widespread: Polling from SNF Agora Institute and Pew Research reveals that nearly half of the US electorate views the opposing party in deeply negative terms—dishonest, immoral, closed-minded ([00:45]).
  • "It's not just in our imaginations. We really are becoming more divided." – Emily Kwong ([00:45])

2. Lessons from a 45-Year Inter-Political Marriage

• Meet Jeannie and Richard: Jeannie Safer, a liberal psychoanalyst, and Richard Brookhiser, a conservative National Review writer, married for over four decades, share their approach ([01:11–03:32]).

  • They met in a Renaissance singing group—bonded by a shared interest, not politics ([01:39]).
  • Setting Boundaries: Some topics, like abortion, are off limits. "The thing we could not talk about really was abortion. We both had strong opinions that were opposite and so we realized we can't talk about this. So we won't." – Jeannie Safer ([02:29])
  • Mutual Respect: Their long-standing relationship is underpinned by deep mutual respect and admiration, even as they maintain opposing views.

  "It really opens your mind to think that somebody that you disagree with, takes care of you, helps you, is there for you. It was really a revelation to me, actually, how much that means."
  — Richard Brookhiser ([02:56])

3. The Neuroscience of Disagreement ([05:29–10:44])

Physiological Responses

• Disagreement activates our physiological "threat" systems: dilated pupils, racing heart, sweat ([05:44]).
• Trust and the Amygdala: Our brains instinctively react to perceived group differences.
  • "There's lots of research showing that there's this discordant perceptions of trust and how trustworthy people actually are." – Oriel Feldman Hall, Brown University ([06:21])
  • When encountering someone from a different group, the amygdala (the brain's threat detector) is activated ([06:39–06:57]).

Brain Synchrony in Agreement vs. Disagreement

• 2021 Yale Study (Joy Hirsch):

  • Monitored brain activity of strangers during real, substantive discussion.

  • When people agreed: Brainwave synchrony rose, especially in social and visual areas.

    • "When two people agreed, their brain activity looked pretty similar." – Rachel Carlson ([09:09])

  • When people disagreed: Less synchrony, more widespread brain activity; used more emotional/cognitive resources.

    "The amount of territory that the brain has devoted to disagreement was astonishing to me...so much neural energy is consumed by disagreement..."
    — Joy Hirsch ([09:55])

  • Key Takeaway: Disagreement is taxing—mentally and emotionally.

4. Scientific Toolkit for Better Disagreement ([10:44–15:52])

Step 0: Assess Safety and Respect

• Before engaging, ask: Is this person receptive? Is it safe to proceed?
  • "I am not inviting people to have a conversation with people that are violent towards you or dehumanizing towards you. That's not a requirement." – Allison Briscoe Smith, psychologist ([11:20])

Step 1: Regulate Yourself

• Breathe and Slow Down: Before diving into disagreement, ground yourself with a breath.
  • "Can you take a breath? Can you slow this down just a little bit so you can kind of come back into yourself, your body?" – Allison Briscoe Smith ([11:46])

Step 2: Clarify Intentions

• Focus on your purpose for the conversation.

  • Are you aiming to learn, build connection, or “win”?
  • Research shows that dialogue aimed at understanding, not persuasion, leads to greater openness.

  "I'm not talking about persuasion debate. I'm not even talking about having my mind changed when I talk about bridging differences. I mean about the mere connection with another person and the space around seeing that person as a human."
  — Allison Briscoe Smith ([12:36])

Step 3: Practice Empathy

• Ask questions and seek to understand the person, not just their viewpoint.

  • Humanizing details—such as jobs, families, or mundane preferences—reduce perceived distance ([13:59]).
  • The less we know about someone, the easier it is to demonize or “other” them.

  "When we learn personal details about others...immediately people were able to view them with more warmth."
  — Juliana Tafour, Bridging Differences Program ([14:25])

Step 4: Humility

• Acknowledge limits to your own knowledge; openness to learning is foundational.
  • "I know I don't know everything, and even the things that I think I know well, like, there's always more to learn." – Rachel Carlson ([15:13])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When you live with somebody for how many thousands of years that we have, you learn that some of the things that you thought were wrong, maybe weren't, and you know, if also, if you really care for somebody and admire them, if they have certain opinions, it slightly changes how you feel about it."
  – Richard Brookhiser ([15:52])

• “It’s about seeing the person and not the label.”
  – Rachel Carlson ([14:01])

• “[Arguing to learn] helps us keep an open mind about the topic at hand.”
  – Emily Kwong ([13:20])

Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |---------|-----------------------------------------------| | 00:45 | America’s growing divisiveness (poll stats) | | 01:11 | Introduction to Jeannie & Richard | | 02:29 | Boundaries in their marriage | | 02:56 | Reflection on respect and compassion | | 05:29 | Physiology of disagreement | | 06:21 | Trust, amygdala, and group threat response | | 07:06 | Joy Hirsch's brain synchrony study | | 09:55 | How disagreement consumes neural energy | | 11:03 | The science-informed toolkit starts | | 11:46 | Focus on breathing and intentions | | 12:36 | Bridging as connection, not persuasion | | 13:37 | Using empathy to change perceptions | | 15:13 | Practicing humility | | 15:52 | Richard Brookhiser reflects on long marriage |

Tone & Takeaways

• The discussion is open, encouraging, and empathetic—emphasizing genuine curiosity, humility, and human connection over adversarial debate.
• Science suggests “disagreeing better” requires not just mental effort but emotional regulation and a willingness to see beyond labels, always prioritizing respect and safety.

Recommended Action:
Before your next difficult conversation, breathe, clarify your intentions, get curious about the person, and remember: understanding is the real goal—not winning.