Inside the lab taste-testing the world's chocolate

Summary

Short Wave (NPR) – Episode Summary Episode Title: Inside the lab taste-testing the world's chocolate
Date: June 15, 2026
Hosts: Regina Barber, Ari Daniel
Guest(s): Julia Butak (Lab Assistant), Julien Simonis (Chocolate Scientist & Program Manager, Cacao of Excellence), Run Kampan (Tintin Chocolate), Rosada Laura (Juan Lauda Farm)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the flavorful world of chocolate science, focusing on the international effort to standardize cacao tasting and quality—a project that’s transforming how chocolate is valued, traded, and appreciated. Hosts Regina Barber and Ari Daniel take listeners from the Chocolate Experience Museum lab in Perugia, Italy, through the process of chocolate-making, taste-testing, and the global Cacao of Excellence program, offering an engaging blend of food science, sensory analysis, and social justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Science of Chocolate: From Bean to Bar

• Chocolate’s Global Crisis: Regina opens with concerns about chocolate shortages due to climate change and economic pressures on farmers. (00:36)
• Science at the Museum: Ari introduces listeners to the Chocolate Experience Museum in Perugia, where cocoa beans are physically processed and taste-tested. (00:59)
  • Notable detail: Julia Butak, a lab assistant from the Philippines, wasn’t a chocolate fan until working in the lab deepened her appreciation. (01:46)
  • Quote – Julia Butak:
    “Oh, it’s my baby. I would say I need to care. I need to look after it.” (02:08)

Standardization: Cacao of Excellence

• Why Standards Matter: Previously, there was no consistent way to compare the many types of cacao globally. The Cacao of Excellence program, started in 2009, aims to standardize evaluation, similar to wine or coffee tastings. (02:42)
  • Quote – Regina Barber:
    “So you mean like chocolate having different, like, tastes and different smells? Kind of like a wine sommelier would…have this internationally agreed upon rubric.” (02:32)
• Process Details:
  • Beans are carefully sifted, sliced, roasted, shelled, milled, and then combined with specific amounts of sugar and cocoa butter. Each step is meticulously measured and recorded for comparability. (05:27-06:22)

Chocolate Science as a Career

• Meet the Chocolate Scientist: Ari interviews Julien Simonis, program manager and chocolate scientist (cue a bit of envy from Regina at this job title). (06:36)
  • Regina’s lighthearted tone:
    “So I became the wrong kind of scientist. I should have been a chocolate scientist.” (06:44)

Economic and Social Impact

• Global Supply Chain: Most cacao comes from tropical suppliers like Ivory Coast and Ghana, where farmers face poverty and limited compensation. The standardization aims to help them get fairer prices for higher-quality beans. (07:20)
  • Quote – Julien Simonis:
    “A lot of the cacao producers live under poverty limits. And so there are a lot of economical challenges. Access to markets, access to education.” (07:58)
• Direct Farmer Benefits:
  • Farmers participating in the program have seen greater visibility and improved sales; for instance, Run Kampan (Thailand’s Tintin Chocolate) and Rosada Laura (Peru’s Juan Lauda Farm) share firsthand the positive impacts. (10:38-11:24)
  • Quote – Rosada Laura:
    “I think this is a good way to dignify the laborers and change the mind of people regarding the farmers.” (11:15)

The Tasting Panel: Sensory Science

• Professional Tasting: A panel of 15+ tasters evaluates chocolate for acidity, bitterness, astringency, and more, using a dedicated flavor wheel. Chocolates processed identically reveal only the bean’s inherent differences—akin to wine terroir. (09:59, 10:10)
  • Memorable Tasting Descriptions:
    • Julien Simonis (11:41):
      “It’s extremely creamy…a splash of sultanas that gives way to a nuttiness.”
    • On Hawaii chocolate: “My God. Each time I taste this, I’m always amazed. You have a boost of acidity. This burst of fresh flavors.” (09:41-09:55)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Regina Barber (host, on chocolate shortages):
  “I would love any good news about my beloved chocolate.” (00:36)
• Julia Butak (lab assistant):
  “Oh, it’s my baby. I would say I need to care. I need to look after it.” (02:08)
• Julien Simonis (chocolate scientist, on standards):
  “Harmonizing the way of talking about a food product, it’s to see the differences, to let people appreciate it…” (07:12)
• Julien Simonis (on poverty):
  “A lot of the cacao producers live under poverty limits. And so there are a lot of economical challenges.” (07:58)
• Tasting Moment (Hawaii chocolate):
  “My God. Each time I taste this, I’m always amazed. You have a boost of acidity. This burst of fresh flavors.” (09:45)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:36: Chocolate shortages and climate crisis context
• 01:12: Exploring the Chocolate Experience Museum and lab work
• 02:32: The need for standardized taste evaluation
• 05:27: Detailed walk-through of the cacao-to-chocolate process
• 06:36: Introduction to chocolate scientist Julien Simonis
• 07:58: Global cacao economics and the problem of farmer poverty
• 09:30: The sensory science panel and tasting methods
• 10:38: How standardization has helped small producers and farmers
• 11:15: Social implications—dignity for laborers and changing perception of farmers
• 11:37: Closing—common chocolate “language” and the power of science to bring value to the whole supply chain

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Tone and Takeaways

This episode is playful and enthusiastic while being deeply informative—mixing food geekery, sensory wonder, and social advocacy. The science of chocolate, it turns out, is not just about pleasure; it’s about fairness and global connection too.

Final Thought:
Regina sums it up best:
“See, we did get to the good news. Ari, thank you so much. This was delightful.” (11:37)

For more:
The hosts reference an additional episode on climate change and chocolate alternatives, encouraging listeners to dive deeper into the science and social stories behind everyone's favorite treat.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Regina Barber]

You're listening to Short Wave from NPR. Hey, shortwavers, it's Regina Barber and today we're talking chocolate. Do I have that right?

[Ari Daniel]

You sure do, Regina. Awesome.

[Regina Barber]

Okay. This is science reporter Ari Daniel. Hey, Ari.

[Ari Daniel]

Hi, Regina.

[Regina Barber]

I love chocolate. Dark chocolate specifically.

[Ari Daniel]

Me too. But milk?

[Regina Barber]

Oh, I do not like milk chocolate. But I respect you, Ari. And I know from our reporting at Short Wave and prices at the grocery store that there's shortage of chocolate like due to many things, the climate crisis being one of them. Because of where it's grown. I would love any good news about my beloved chocolate.

[Ari Daniel]

Well, you've come to the right place.

[Regina Barber]

Thank goodness.

[Ari Daniel]

And to find that good news, we are going to start about 100 miles north of Rome in this hilly village. It's called Perugia. And we're headed to the Chocolate Experience Museum.

[Regina Barber]

Yes, I need to go there so bad.

[Ari Daniel]

You should. It's an incredible place. And tucked inside this museum is a lab that is dedicated to processing cacao.

[Regina Barber]

Cacao being what chocolate's made from.

[Ari Daniel]

Exactly. And Julia Butak, a lab assistant here, starts by sifting a bag of beans. Yes, you're just removing the little bits that aren't full beans.

[Regina Barber]

So it's really physical work.

[Ari Daniel]

Julia is from the Philippines. She was never a huge chocolate fan, actually, but her job here has helped her gain a decent, deeper appreciation for the stuff.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, I bet. All that work to see the development of the flavor, like nuts, fruits, spice. It satisfies you.

[Ari Daniel]

How would you define your relationship with the chocolate you work with?

[Regina Barber]

Oh, it's my baby. I would say I need to care. I need to look after it.

[Ari Daniel]

Julia says that like people, each kind of cacao is special. And I want to tell you about this process because it in turn is rather special. For a long time, there wasn't a standard way of comparing the dizzying array of cacao beans that are produced on farms across the tropics.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, so you mean like chocolate having different, like, tastes and different smells? Kind of like a wine sommelier would like, have this, like, internationally agreed upon rubric.

[Ari Daniel]

Yes, that's true. But then in 2009, this sustainable agriculture nonprofit headquartered in Rome started a program called Cacao of Excellence. And they began working to develop a standard way of preparing and evaluating cacao. Just like those sommeliers do with wine today.

[Regina Barber]

On the show Cacao, documenting its splendor and by doing so helping a growing number of small scale farmers. I'm Regina Barber and you're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Support for NPR comes from IBM On Smart Talks with IBM, host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM. Hello.

[Ari Daniel]

Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at UFC, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fight data.

[Alon Cohen]

With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how. Like when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder, that's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.

[Ari Daniel]

That is until IBM entered the octagon.

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Listen to Smart Talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Regina Barber]

Follow us to make sure you never miss a new episode. New ones drop every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. All right, Ari. Earlier we got a hint of the chocolate making process, but that chemistry is some of the most delicious science I know of. So I want to give you a chance to walk us through the rest of it.

[Ari Daniel]

Okay, so to continue the process, Julia takes 50 of the beans Regina, and slices them in half nearly simultaneously with something that looks a lot like a guillotine. That's satisfying. A chocolatey fragrance wafts into the air and it's mixed with notes of citrus. Julia records her impressions on a spreadsheet. Next, she roasts a bunch of the remaining beans for a specific amount of time. Before separating out the shells and then running the nibs through a mill. Oh, I just got a. That smells like chocolate. Yeah, it's intoxicating. I don't know how you get any work done. Julia then adds a precise amount of sugar and cocoa butter and tempers it all before pouring the resulting chocolate into molds.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, so the point of all this is that those beans, the way they're being prepared is being standardized so that you can compare them. How did the Cacao of Excellence program go about working out the standard method of handling cacao?

[Ari Daniel]

Well, they relied on a team of people, including Julien Simonis, a chocolate scientist who now serves as the program manager.

[Regina Barber]

So I became the wrong kind of scientist. I should have been a chocolate scientist.

[Ari Daniel]

It's never too late.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never heard of this job.

[Ari Daniel]

Me neither. But that's why I was so excited for Julien to take me to this park in the middle of Rome, where he tells me that having standards for cacao, like they do with wine or hazelnuts or olive oil or coffee, could do a lot for that industry.

[Julien Simonis]

Harmonizing the way of talking about a food product, it's to see the differences, to let people appreciate it, and that

[Ari Daniel]

can help persuade consumers to pay for higher quality chocolate money that, at least in part, can find its way back to the farmers. And because what happens is that farmers across the tropics will produce large amounts of cacao during the year, and then that cacao gets transported away and it moves through the supply chain, eventually making it to the places where it's turned into chocolate and sold and upsold to consumers. But those farmers don't often get that much in terms of compensation. And that's especially true in two of the countries that produce the most cacao globally. Ivory coast and Ghana.

[Julien Simonis]

A lot of the cacao producers live under poverty limits. And so there are a lot of economical challenges. Access to markets, access to education.

[Ari Daniel]

It took years, but the team now has a process that they stand behind.

[Julien Simonis]

And so it's been revised, it's been adapted, it's been challenged.

[Regina Barber]

And this whole thing starts in that lab in the Chocolate Experience Museum in Perugia.

[Ari Daniel]

Yes. And the second half happens in the mouth. Julien has a tote full of samples from the lab.

[Julien Simonis]

You want to taste?

[Ari Daniel]

The only answer is yes, Regina. So Julien, in that moment, he selects a small chocolate from Peru, and it's wrapped in gold foil. So he unwraps it.

[Julien Simonis]

You let it cover, well, your palate, and Your tongue.

[Regina Barber]

He's, like, whispering to you. He's great. What? What is that? What is that sound? Is he breathing?

[Ari Daniel]

Yes. He's using this breathing technique that he tried to teach me to heighten his perception of the chocolate's aroma and taste. Where he breathes in through the mouth and then out through his nose.

[Regina Barber]

It's like wine.

[Ari Daniel]

Yeah, very much so.

[Julien Simonis]

So it's extremely creamy.

[Ari Daniel]

He describes a splash of sultanas that gives way to a nuttiness.

[Regina Barber]

What is a sultana?

[Ari Daniel]

Like a small raisin.

[Regina Barber]

Oh, okay. I want to try these, like, today.

[Ari Daniel]

You should. If I have any that are remaining from my stash, I'll bring them to you the next time I see you.

[Regina Barber]

Excellent, Excellent.

[Ari Daniel]

So the next one he selects is a chocolate from Hawaii.

[Julien Simonis]

Let's go.

[Ari Daniel]

Julien looks reverent.

[Julien Simonis]

My God. Each time I taste this, I'm always amazed. You have a boost of acidity. This burst of fresh flavors.

[Ari Daniel]

He tastes fruits and a hint of cardamom and nutmeg.

[Regina Barber]

Wait, so these two chocolates were processed and prepared identically?

[Ari Daniel]

That's right. So any differences are only coming from the cacao bean.

[NPR Promo Announcer]

Wow.

[Regina Barber]

Science.

[Ari Daniel]

Simonis relies on a panel of 15 or so professional tasters to evaluate a chocolate's unique blend of acidity, bitterness, astringency, and more. They've got this whole flavor wheel that they showed me.

[Regina Barber]

Love it.

[Ari Daniel]

The result is a standardized way of comparing chocolate, allowing cacao to be priced and valued according to its quality.

[Julien Simonis]

We are trying to work with every single producing country in the world.

[Regina Barber]

So have they made progress towards that goal?

[Ari Daniel]

They've made a lot of progress, actually. I connected with Run Kampan in Thailand. He's the founder of Tintin Chocolate, and he says that this program raised his small family farm's visibility and helped improve the product. Cacao of excellence gives small producers a chance to be seen and reconciled. I believe it will help increase my income in the future. Some producers have already seen improved sales, Regina. Like the Juan Lauda farm in the forest of Peru. Rosada Laura runs the farm there and says the extra revenue is about more than just the money.

[Regina Barber]

I think this is a good way to dignify the laborers and change the mind of people regarding the farmers.

[Ari Daniel]

Above all, she says that this effort is allowing cacao producers, buyers, and consumers to finally speak the same language. One that can describe those magic beans that we transform into chocolate.

[Regina Barber]

See, we did get to the good news. Ari, thank you so much. This was delightful.

[Ari Daniel]

Of course, Regina, thanks for having me. And remind me when I see you to bring you that chocolate I will not forget.

[Regina Barber]

Don't worry.

[Ari Daniel]

I don't doubt it.

[Regina Barber]

If you like this episode, check out our other episode on how climate change is hurting chocolate production and how some people are coming up with chocolate alternatives. We'll link to it in our show notes. Thanks for listening. Short waivers and if you liked this episode, give us a follow on the NPR app or wherever else you may be listening from. This episode was produced by Nour Gill. It was edited by our showrunner Rebecca Ramirez and Tyler Jones. Check the facts. The audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. I'm Regina Barber. Thank you so much for listening to Short Wave from NPR.

[Julien Simonis]

Foreign.

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[Ari Daniel]

This is Hourglass on this American Life. One thing we like is a good mystery sometimes about really big things, but most times the little mysteries are the best. Our Lost and Found is currently filled with pants. I don't know. I've never seen this happen.

[Regina Barber]

This is true.

[Ari Daniel]

This is true. Mysteries of every size each week. This American Life. Wherever you get your podcasts.