Learning A Second Language As An Adult

Summary

Short Wave: Learning A Second Language As An Adult

Host: Emily Kwong and Maddie
Guest: Sara Phillips, PhD Student in Linguistics, New York University
Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this engaging episode of NPR’s Short Wave, hosts Emily Kwong and Maddie delve into the complexities and science of learning a second language as an adult. Emily shares her personal journey of learning Mandarin Chinese, setting the stage for a rich discussion on bilingualism, neural plasticity, and the challenges adults face when acquiring a new language.

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Personal Stories and Motivation

Emily kickstarts the conversation by sharing a heartfelt family anecdote. She reminisces about a Kwong family home movie from her childhood, highlighting the bilingual environment she grew up in—speaking both English and Mandarin Chinese with her grandparents during holidays.

Emily Kwong [01:19]: "There are two languages being spoken by our family. There's English, but there's also Mandarin Chinese."

Despite her early exposure, Emily admits that her Mandarin was limited to basic phrases until her adult years, prompting her to embark on the journey of learning the language more seriously.

Emily Kwong [01:52]: "All year, I've been taking Mandarin classes virtually... am I too old to try?"

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Expert Insights: Language Acquisition

To shed light on the science behind second language acquisition, Emily and Maddie invite Sara Phillips, a neuro linguist from NYU, to discuss the cognitive processes involved in becoming bilingual.

Sara Phillips [04:03]: "Bilingualism gets studied in at least three different fields. Linguistics, psychology, and cognitive neuroscience."

Sara shares her own background as a bilingual individual, emphasizing the significance of language in connecting with family and cultural roots.

Sara Phillips [04:39]: "Learning Korean was very important to be able to communicate with my mom's side of the family... speaking African American English was very important... for my dad's side of the family."

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The Critical Period Hypothesis

A central theme of the episode is the Critical Period Hypothesis—the theory that there is an optimal window during childhood for language acquisition. Emily explores whether this theory restricts adults from achieving fluency in a new language.

Emily Kwong [06:09]: "The critical period hypothesis... there's a biological window where language learning is the most automatic."

Sara explains the origins of this theory, drawing parallels with studies on zebra finches, which lose the ability to mimic calls after a certain age.

Sara Phillips [06:37]: "In zebra finches... they have to learn certain songs... These calls are important for communicating certain things..."

While acknowledging the challenges, Sara and Emily discuss how the brain remains capable of forming new neural connections beyond the critical period, albeit with increased effort.

Emily Kwong [09:03]: "In the first three years of life, your brain was developing 1 million new neural connections per second... Your brain doesn't stop building neural connections after your pubescent."

Sara Phillips [09:33]: "The critical window should actually be called a sensitive window... easier and even optimal to learn languages."

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Overcoming Challenges in Adult Language Learning

The hosts address the practical difficulties adults encounter, such as ingrained speech habits and pronunciation issues. Sara emphasizes that while challenges exist, they are not insurmountable.

Sara Phillips [10:10]: "Most scientists agree that this process becomes more difficult with age because your body, including your brain, has already developed certain habits."

Emily shares her personal struggles with Mandarin pronunciation, a common hurdle for adult learners of tonal languages.

Emily Kwong [11:03]: "Mandarin is a tonal language, and some of these tones my mouth has never made before."

Sara reassures that striving for native-like pronunciation is unnecessary and that effective communication is the primary goal.

Sara Phillips [12:46]: "You might not ever actually become native like in your pronunciation. But that shouldn't be something people stress over."

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Pronunciation and Identity

The episode delves into the relationship between language learning, pronunciation, and personal identity. Emily reflects on letting go of the pursuit of flawless pronunciation to embrace her unique linguistic identity.

Emily Kwong [13:14]: "I can let go of the idea of sounding just like my grandparents... I long to be understood."

Sara reinforces this perspective by highlighting that language use is intertwined with one’s identity, making the fear of imperfect pronunciation less significant.

Sara Phillips [13:28]: "Are you saying it well enough to be understood? That should be really the threshold upon which you want to cross."

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Conclusion: Personal Reflections and Takeaways

Wrapping up the episode, Emily expresses gratitude for her family's influence and the personal fulfillment she gains from learning Mandarin as a tribute to her grandparents.

Emily Kwong [13:58]: "My grandma was trying to teach me Mandarin in the years before she and my grandfather died. So I feel like I kind of owe it to them to try."

Maddie commends Emily’s dedication, reinforcing the message that while adult language learning is challenging, it is both achievable and deeply rewarding.

Maddie [14:18]: "Emily, thank you so much for bringing us a story that's as personal as it gets. Your heritage, your family, your brain chemistry. Thank you."

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Key Takeaways

• Bilingualism Across Lifespans: While early childhood is optimal for language acquisition, adults can still successfully learn new languages with dedication and practice.
• Neural Plasticity: The adult brain retains the ability to form new neural connections, facilitating language learning beyond the so-called critical period.
• Overcoming Pronunciation Challenges: Adults may struggle with pronunciation and accent, but effective communication remains achievable without striving for perfection.
• Cultural and Personal Motivation: Learning a language can be a profound way to connect with one's heritage and honor familial relationships.

This episode of Short Wave offers a compelling blend of personal narrative and scientific insight, making the journey of adult language learning both relatable and inspiring for listeners.

Transcript

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[Maddie]

You'Re listening to Shortwave from NPR.

[Emily Kwong]

So, Maddy, you and I have known each other for a while now, and I think we're ready to take it to the next level.

[Maddie]

Oh, my God. Are we going whitewater rafting?

[Emily Kwong]

No.

[Maddie]

Are we doing it?

[Emily Kwong]

No, not today. But I have brought you something just as invigorating and just as vulnerable. A Kwong family home movie. I like eggs.

[Maddie]

Yes. I think there's more eggs. Do you need more eggs? My baby Kwong.

[Emily Kwong]

So I'm two years old, and we're on an Easter egg hunt. I got my floral Easter dress. I got my grandparents Hui and Edgar Kwong, and they are all about this right now. Flake.

[Maddie]

Yes. Chocolate for you.

[Emily Kwong]

Oh.

[Maddie]

Honestly, you still react that way to chocolate? Let's be real.

[Emily Kwong]

It's true.

[Maddie]

Emily, you want an egg?

[Emily Kwong]

That's my uncle Timothy Quang. And you'll notice, Maddie, throughout these home movies, and I've brought a few today, that there are two languages being spoken by our family.

[Sponsor]

Right?

[Emily Kwong]

There's English, but there's also Mandarin Chinese. Those are my grandparents during Christmas. But for years, all I could say in Mandarin was hello, thank you, and goodbye. English was the only language I knew until now.

[Sponsor]

Mm.

[Emily Kwong]

All year, I've been taking Mandarin classes virtually. Oh, no. I got this tie trying to learn this language. And in the back of my brain, I'm wondering, of course, you know, am I too old to try? Please hold. Tai, can you really learn another language as an adult? I have to say restaurant first, don't I? Right. I don't know.

[Maddie]

What do you think? So today in the show, we ask some big questions about second language acquisition and get answers from neuro linguist Sara Phillips.

[Emily Kwong]

This is Shore Wave from npr.

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[Maddie]

All right, Emily Kwong, Today we are talking about the science of learning a second language because you are learning Mandarin Chinese, which, like, as far as a hobby goes. More power to you, Emily. More power to you.

[Emily Kwong]

Right. For, for real, though it is a hard language to learn, language itself actually is an incredible ability if you think about it, that we humans have. It involves many parts of the brain, and the study of language spans across many different disciplines.

[Sara Phillips]

So bilingualism gets studied in at least three different fields. Linguistics, psychology, and cognitive neuroscience.

[Emily Kwong]

Sarah Phillips is a PhD student in the linguistics department at New York University and exactly the person I wanted to call up to talk about language learning.

[Maddie]

Oh, yeah, I remember Sarah from our episode on P600. Like how the brain responds to sentences with confusing grammar or syntax.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, brains and language are her jam. So her parents met in Korea while her father was serving in the Marine Corps, and they raised her bilingual here.

[Sara Phillips]

In the US Learning Korean was very important to be able to communicate with my mom's side of the family in the same way that growing up speaking African American English was very important in being able to communicate and be a part of my dad's side of the family.

[Emily Kwong]

She's got a really interesting backstory, and I told her about my project about taking Mandarin class for two hours every Monday, flashcards on the other nights, watching movies I can't understand. And listen to this.

[Sara Phillips]

Someone who is engaging in learning a second language thereby uses another language on a pretty regular basis. That means you're a developing bilingual. So in essence, you are a bilingual. Oh, but, but you know, we would probably call that baby bilingual.

[Emily Kwong]

Exactly.

[Sara Phillips]

Baby bilingual.

[Emily Kwong]

Maybe.

[Sara Phillips]

Maybe as an alternative to baby bilingual, maybe we should think of this as a developing bilingual.

[Maddie]

Oh, that's pretty cool though. You're a developing baby bilingual.

[Emily Kwong]

And Sarah says, more specifically because she's a scientist, that I am a developing sequential bilingual, meaning I'm learning a second language after acquiring a first language. But that's really different from a simultaneous bilingual like Sarah, who developed the ability to speak two or more languages in the earliest years of life. And one of the reasons I never tried to learn myheritage language, honestly, is because of something called the critical period hypothesis. Have you ever heard of this?

[Maddie]

I think so. Is that the idea that you can only become fluent in a language when you're young? Like, there's this critical window for language learning? Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

It's a theory that dates back to the 1950s.

[Maddie]

Okay.

[Emily Kwong]

And basically argues there's a magic window for a person to learn a fluent first language somewhere between age 2 and puberty. Scientists debate the cutoff age, but the key idea is there's a biological window where language learning is the most automatic.

[Sara Phillips]

Where this comes from actually starts really early on with work done with zebra finches and how zebra finches and maybe even other types of birds. But the literature that I'm familiar with points to zebra finches, where early on in their development, they have to learn certain songs or calls that are particular to their kind. And these calls are important for things like mating and, you know, detecting trouble. In essence, they're important for communicating certain things that are important for their communities.

[Maddie]

Okay.

[Emily Kwong]

And, Maddie, Researchers found that if baby zebra finches were separated from adults for long enough, they couldn't produce the same calls as their parents. Which isn't good. Right. When you think about how important these calls are for mating and socialization in zebra finch communities.

[Maddie]

Dang. Okay, so does the same thing happen with humans? Like, I don't know that you could ethically study that, but I'm curious.

[Emily Kwong]

Well, there have been cases where children were denied language before puberty because of abusive parents or extreme social isol. And when many of those children tried to learn their first language past puberty, they couldn't pick up the grammar.

[Maddie]

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, but how does this apply to second language acquisition? In your earlier question, like, how late is too late to learn another language?

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, this has been the big question, because the critical period hypothesis has totally entered our popular consciousness as kind of this rule of second language learning, too, that you can't really learn a language fluently when you're older.

[Maddie]

Right.

[Emily Kwong]

And scientists kind of disagree with this. Let's unpack why by looking at the developing baby brain.

[Maddie]

Ooh, neuroscience. We love it.

[Emily Kwong]

So little. Humans experience an explosive amount of language learning in the first few years of life. Our brain cells change over time, and that change is most rapid when we're little, as our bodies produce neurological structures and connections we'll use throughout our lifetime. Researchers at the center for the develop at Harvard University estimate that in the first three years of life, your brain was developing 1 million new neural connections per Second every second.

[Maddie]

That's too many. Take it easy, brain. You know what I mean?

[Emily Kwong]

That's a lot, baby. Brain's gotta grow. But here's the thing. Your brain doesn't stop building neural connections after your pubescent. Right, right, right, right. And in the 90s and the early 2000s, researchers took note of that. They began to argue that second language learning is not bound to a biological period. How. And this idea emerged that the critical window should actually be called a sensitive window when you're most susceptible to picking up a new language. Sarah agrees with that.

[Sara Phillips]

When we think about the critical period, we really want to think about this period of time where our brains are going through an explosive amount of growth and change. And so it's easier and even optimal to then want to learn as many things, including languages. And during that time period, because our brains are so quick and easy to soak up information.

[Emily Kwong]

And once you're past that window, like me, you can still become fluent in another language. It will just take way more conscious effort. That's the distinction.

[Maddie]

Not just like, you're essentially rewiring your brain a little bit.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah. Or a lot. And most scientists agree that this process becomes more difficult with age because your body, including your brain, has already developed certain habits. And habits are hard to break.

[Sara Phillips]

If we think about language. Like, it's not just our brains involved. Right. We also have to use our eyes to perceive what we see, and we use our mouths. If we're oral producers of language, you know, we have to finagle our mouths to do the right things. Right. And these are all habits that we've developed during our early childhood years. So once you become an adult now, you have to learn how to break those habits to adopt a new way of speaking and doing. And so it's a little harder, but it's not impossible.

[Emily Kwong]

It's very comforting. I hear you. That I'm gonna have to fight for it.

[Maddie]

Emily Kwong. You're always fighting for stuff. You're always fighting for stuff. You're a fighter. You got this.

[Emily Kwong]

And I'm willing to fight for this one, you know?

[Maddie]

Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

Like, contemporary research shows there are a lot of factors that influence language learning beyond your age. There's education and exposure and the chance to practice in your community. And I'm not going for total fluency here. I just want to know enough for my relatives to tell me how bad I am and to be able to say, wo de ming zi shi Emily kwank ni chi le man, which means, have you eaten?

[Maddie]

Nice.

[Emily Kwong]

Thank you and have you eaten? Is kind of a common refrain in a lot of Asian languages. It's kind of a way of saying, I love you.

[Maddie]

Aw. I'd really love that. That's nice.

[Emily Kwong]

So, Maddie, in response, if you've eaten, you would say chilao. Now, one area I'm kind of self conscious about is pronunciation. So if you're listening to do not come for my tone. I already know. I already know. Mandarin is a tonal language, and some of these tones my mouth has never made before.

[Maddie]

Right, right.

[Emily Kwong]

And Sarah said that's an area where childhood speakers have a clear, unmistakable advantage.

[Sara Phillips]

The sound system is really the first things we learn about our languages. Right. So the rise and fall and intonation and pitch and those kinds of things, as well as the actual speech sounds of our language, those are literally some of the first things that we learn.

[Emily Kwong]

In our infancy, which is why adults struggle to produce the speech sounds of another language. But when it comes to pronunciation and accents, Sarah kind of pushed back on my questions, asking me, who do you imagine as a perfectly native speaker anyway? Is it fair to compare yourself to that person?

[Sara Phillips]

I'm willing to bet that your lived experiences are going to be dynamically different from the person who you envision as your native speaker. And so you might not ever actually become native like in your pronunciation. But I don't think that that should be something that people stress over. And the reason being is that the way that we use language fits our identity.

[Emily Kwong]

So I can let go of the idea of sounding just like my grandparents who grew up in Beijing, because it's here in the among my extended family and other Chinese Americans that I long to be understood.

[Sara Phillips]

Are you saying it well enough to be understood? That should be really the threshold upon which you want to cross.

[Maddie]

Oh, my gosh, I love that. That's so comforting. Like, this is like language therapy right now. Like learning a new language therapy, because everybody worries about that pronunciation when they're trying to speak in a different language. Right? Yeah.

[Emily Kwong]

It took the pressure off enormously. And. And I should share with you. My grandma was trying to teach me Mandarin in the years before she and my grandfather died.

[Maddie]

Have you guys had some breakfast?

[Emily Kwong]

So I feel like I kind of owe it to them to try.

[Maddie]

Emily, thank you so much for bringing us a story that's as personal as it gets. Your heritage, your family, your brain chemistry. Thank you.

[Emily Kwong]

Thank you, Maddie.

[Maddie]

Today's episode was produced by Thomas Liu, edited by Viet Le, and fact checked by Indi Kara. The audio engineer for this episode was Alex Strewenskas.

[Emily Kwong]

Special thanks to sociolinguist Amelia Tsang, Fluent City Language School, Dennis Yue, Yu Li, Megan Arias, and my family, especially Christopher Kwong, Timothy Kwong, Linda Kwong and Amanda Kwong.

[Maddie]

This is Short Wave from npr.

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