Nature Quest: The Climate-Kid Question

Summary

Short Wave: Nature Quest — The Climate-Kid Question

Episode Release Date: May 27, 2025

In this compelling episode of NPR's Short Wave, hosts Emily Kwong and Hannah Chin delve into a pressing and emotionally charged topic: the impact of climate change on decisions about having and raising children. Titled "Nature Quest: The Climate-Kid Question," the episode navigates through personal stories, scientific research, and expert insights to explore how environmental concerns are shaping reproductive choices.

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1. Introducing Alessandra Rahm's Story (00:16 - 02:16)

The episode opens with Emily Kwong introducing Alessandra Rahm, a journalist and former documentary producer for Al Jazeera. Alessandra shares her profound journey from covering climate narratives globally in places like Thailand and Canada to witnessing the direct impacts of climate change in her hometown of California.

• Alessandra Rahm (00:45): “A lot of those stories, even if they didn't start out focusing on climate, there were climate narratives there because so many stories are climate stories.”

Her recent experience of becoming a new parent brings a personal dimension to her environmental concerns. Alessandra expresses anxiety over the future her daughter Zara will inherit in a warming world.

• Alessandra Rahm (01:34): “Everything has changed in the last two weeks. For me, I can only think in like two and a half to three hour increments for when I'm feeding her or when I'm trying to get sleep, which is not often. So life becomes very moment by moment.”

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2. The Climate-Kid Dilemma Explained (02:16 - 05:13)

Emily and Hannah Chin introduce the central question of the episode: How does climate anxiety influence the decision to have children? They highlight that this concern is particularly prevalent among younger generations. Citing a Pew Research survey, Hannah notes that over a quarter of people under 50 who choose not to have children cite environmental worries as a major factor.

Hannah Chin delves into the origins of this concern, tracing it back to a pivotal 2017 study published in Environmental Research Letters titled "The Climate Mitigation Gap."

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3. The "Climate Mitigation Gap" Study and Its Impact (05:13 - 07:05)

Kimberly Nicholas, co-author of the study and a professor of sustainability science at Lund University, Sweden, explains the key findings. The research emphasizes actionable climate solutions such as reducing car usage, adopting plant-based diets, and minimizing air travel. Notably, the study highlights that high-frequency flyers contribute significantly to their carbon footprint.

• Kimberly Nicholas (05:13): “One round trip flight emits 1.6 tons and that's equivalent to two years of eating meat. So for a high flyer, someone who frequently flies, by far the biggest action you can do is reduce your flying.”

However, media coverage of the study disproportionately focused on the controversial fourth recommendation: having fewer children. This sparked intense debate, given the sensitive nature of reproductive choices.

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4. Historical Context: Population Growth vs. Climate Change (07:05 - 08:18)

Jade Sasser, an associate professor at UC Riverside, provides historical context, tracing the harmful narrative linking population growth to environmental degradation back to the 1800s. She references Thomas Robert Malthus, whose theories suggested that population control was necessary to prevent resource depletion.

• Jade Sasser (07:05): “The consensus among environmentalists for a long time has been that population growth is bad for the environment because it means that more human beings on the planet will consume more resources and there will be less available for all of us and that we will all suffer as a result.”

Sasser clarifies that contemporary climate science identifies fossil fuel use and industrial activities as the primary drivers of climate change, not population growth per se.

• Jade Sasser (07:24): "Population growth, particularly when it comes to consumption, definitely has local impacts on local resources. But science tells us that is not what is driving global climate change."

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5. Shifting the Focus to Immediate Climate Actions (08:18 - 11:21)

Kimberly Nicholas discusses the limitations of focusing solely on reproductive choices as a climate solution. Instead, she advocates for high-impact actions that can be taken immediately to reduce emissions, such as:

• Reducing air travel

• Adopting sustainable diets

• Supporting policy changes and renewable energy initiatives

• Kimberly Nicholas (08:18): “The math doesn't pencil out. If you say, okay, well, I'm someone who doesn't want to have a child. That means I get 50 flights a year.”

Hannah Chin emphasizes that while personal choices matter, the most significant impact comes from collective actions and systemic changes. Kimberly developed a High Impact Climate Action Guide to help individuals identify and implement effective strategies.

• Hannah Chin (10:28): “...the people best positioned to do those high impact climate actions aren't just politicians and energy CEOs. They're also anyone who makes a little over US$42,000 a year. Those people are part of the top 10% richest people on earth and we have a lot of power in this situation.”

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6. Addressing Climate Anxiety and Finding Support (09:01 - 13:59)

The episode sensitively explores the psychological toll of climate anxiety. Climate distress, recognized by environmental psychologists, affects mental health and life decisions, including whether to have children.

• Jade Sasser (09:01): “It is in fact, according to environmental psychologists, quite normal to feel deeply anxious about these changes in our environment. There's nothing wrong with the feeling of climate anxiety or being reproductively anxious in response.”

Elizabeth Bayshard, of Mom's Clean Air Force, shares her journey from experiencing devastation during Hurricane Florence to mobilizing parents for climate action. She underscores the importance of community and support in navigating climate-related fears.

• Elizabeth Bayshard (12:31): “You need community. We all need community. None of us were meant to carry this alone.”

Practical tools like the Climate Emotions Wheel are recommended to help individuals and families process their feelings about climate change, fostering open conversations and collective resilience.

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7. Embracing Hope and Collective Action (13:10 - 15:04)

The episode concludes on an optimistic note, highlighting how caring for children can be a source of hope and motivation for climate action. Engaging in parenting and community efforts fosters a sense of purpose and interconnectedness.

• Hannah Chin (14:27): “Caring for a child can also be a hopeful thing to do. It can connect us to each other, it can help us act because the future isn't set in stone.”

Listeners are encouraged to access the High Impact Climate Action Guide and other resources provided in the episode notes to take meaningful steps toward combating climate change.

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Key Takeaways

• Climate Anxiety is Real: The psychological impact of climate change significantly influences reproductive and parenting decisions, especially among younger generations.

• Reframing the Narrative: While reproductive choices do contribute to carbon footprints, the primary drivers of climate change are systemic issues like fossil fuel dependence and industrial emissions.

• Empowering Actions: Individuals can make high-impact changes through collective efforts, policy advocacy, and supporting sustainable practices within their communities.

• Support Systems are Crucial: Building communities and utilizing emotional tools can help alleviate the distress associated with climate anxiety, enabling more informed and supported decisions about parenthood.

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Resources Mentioned

• High Impact Climate Action Guide: Developed by Kimberly Nicholas and Christian Nielsen, available online.

• Mom's Clean Air Force: A group mobilizing parents and caregivers for climate action.

• Parent Climate Group: An email-based support network for parents concerned about climate change.

• Climate Emotions Wheel: A tool recommended by Jade Sasser for processing and discussing climate-related feelings.

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Final Thoughts

Nature Quest: The Climate-Kid Question masterfully intertwines personal narratives with scientific research, offering a nuanced exploration of how climate change intersects with one of the most intimate human decisions: having children. By highlighting both the anxieties and the avenues for hope and action, the episode empowers listeners to make informed choices while contributing to broader climate solutions.

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This episode was produced by Hannah Chin and Rachel Carlson, with editing by Rebecca Ramirez and fact-checking by Tyler Jones. Special thanks to Sam Paulson for the theme music.

Listen to more episodes of Short Wave here.

Transcript

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[Emily Kwong]

You're listening to Short Wave from NPR. Hey, everyone. Emily Kwong here. And welcome back to Nature Quest, our monthly segment that brings you a question from a fellow shortwaver who's paying attention to the environment and how our choices shape the world.

[Alessandra Rahm]

I used to travel around the world with Al Jazeera as a documentary producer.

[Emily Kwong]

Alessandra Rahm is a journalist.

[Alessandra Rahm]

And a lot of those stories, even if they didn't start out focusing on climate, there were climate narratives there because so many stories are climate stories.

[Emily Kwong]

The stories Alessandra covered at the time were unfolding in other countries in Thailand and in Canada. But over time, she watched these climate narratives get closer to where she's from, Puerto Rico, Flint, Michigan, and eventually to her home state of California.

[Alessandra Rahm]

A house I was living in. We had to evacuate because of a wildfire threat. But now that's kind of a threat that everyone around here lives with.

[Emily Kwong]

And more recently, Alessandra has had other reasons to be thinking about the future, because a couple weeks ago, she and her partner had a kid.

[Alessandra Rahm]

It's 8am we woke up how many times last night?

[Hannah Chin]

Three. Three.

[Alessandra Rahm]

You know, everything has changed in the last two weeks. For me, I can only think in like two and a half to three hour increments for when I'm feeding her or when I'm trying to get sleep, which is not often. So life becomes very moment by moment.

[Hannah Chin]

Zara, wake up.

[Emily Kwong]

Alessandra has always wanted to be a parent. But as a climate journalist, she worries about the future her daughter will have on a warming planet. And we know a lot of you shortwavers carry this worry, too.

[Alessandra Rahm]

I mean, the world doesn't feel like it's in a great place, I'll admit, in addition to the climate crisis. So you're just aware that you might have more work to do to set your kid up to be in a place where they can thrive.

[Emily Kwong]

So today's kids having and raising a kid can feel like such a fraught decision these days. So what do experts have to say about it? And for people who do have and care for kids, how do you raise them in a way that's good for them and for the planet? You're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

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[Emily Kwong]

So joining me in the studio for this NatureQuest is producer Hannah Chin, my fellow NatureQuest co creator hey Emily.

[Hannah Chin]

And today we're going to talk about what some people consider the third rail of climate change, the kids question. And to be clear, this decision is not just limited to parents. True, it can include aunties and uncles and grandparents and other caregivers. So if you're thinking about making a kid a part of your community, this is for you.

[Emily Kwong]

It's something that a lot of folks, but especially younger folks are thinking about. Right Hannah?

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, I mean, the majority of gen zers report that they're worried or anxious about climate change. Period. And more broadly, a Pew Research survey last year found that of folks under 50 who don't plan to have kids, more than a quarter of them say concerns about the environment and climate change are a major factor in that. And I really wanted to figure out where is this concern coming from? Like who or what told us that having kids was a major contributor to climate change. So I started reporting on this back when I was working on the Gimlet podcast How to Save a Planet. And I found a bunch of recent articles like in the past five or so years that all cited the exact same paper. It was published in 2017 in the Academic journal Environmental Research Letters. It's called the Climate Mitigation Gap.

[Emily Kwong]

I have read this paper and the actions, the climate actions are pretty clear. They're things like go car free, eat a plant based diet and reduce flying as much as possible. So if you are a high emitter, about half of your carbon footprint comes from transportation.

[Kimberly Nicholas]

One round trip flight emits 1.6 tons and that's equivalent to two years of eating meat. So For a high flyer, someone who frequently flies, by far the biggest action you can do is reduce your flying. You'd have to be a vegetarian for 25 years to equal out the flying of one year. So it really adds up.

[Hannah Chin]

This is Kimberly Nicholas. She was the co author of this paper. She's a professor of sustainability science at Lund University in Sweden. And she told me that when she and her colleagues published this paper, the press coverage really focused on the fourth individual action, have one less child.

[Kimberly Nicholas]

That's because in the long run, having a kid produces a lot of emissions.

[Hannah Chin]

Specifically an average of 58.6 metric tons of CO2 a year. If you're in an industrialized country, that's an equivalent of 7.9 homes energy use for one year. And this kicked up a lot of debate because people already have very strong feelings about children and reproductive choice.

[Emily Kwong]

Yes. And while this paper was focused on the individual decision of whether or not to have a child, I think that part of the public's reaction to this work had to do with these long standing debates about population and the environment.

[Jade Sasser]

The consensus among environmentalists for a long time has been that population growth is bad for the environment because it means that more human beings on the planet will consume more resources and there will be less available for all of us and that we will all suffer as a result. And it has been proven wrong by scientists over, over and over again.

[Emily Kwong]

This is Jade Sasser, an associate professor of gender and sexuality studies and society, environment and health equity at UC Riverside. And she traced this idea all the way back to the 1800s and a British economist named Thomas Robert Malthus, who was writing against British laws that offered food aid to the poor.

[Jade Sasser]

He said the poor had too many children and if the government supported them with food, they would never stop having too many children. So his argument was to let them starve and die out.

[Emily Kwong]

To be clear, this is not the argument that Kimberly and her colleague were making. But it is important to think about how this broader dialogue about population and the environment has a checkered past. And in reality, population growth, particularly when it comes to consumption, definitely has local impacts on local resources. But science tells us that is not what is driving global climate change.

[Hannah Chin]

Right. What is driving global climate change is fossil fuel use. Human development overall is definitely part of that, but it has more to do with energy companies and governments and how we set up our infrastructure.

[Emily Kwong]

Science tells us the issue is how we live, not that we live.

[Kimberly Nicholas]

The math doesn't pencil out. If you say, okay, well, I'm someone who doesn't want to have a child. That means I get 50 flights a year.

[Emily Kwong]

So Kimberly Nicholas, the scientist in Sweden, talks really differently about the kid question now. Now she focuses on the actions we should take to eliminate emissions today.

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, as someone who does want to co parent a kid someday, that's the journey I'm interested in. Like, I think reproductive autonomy is really important and I'm still worried about the climate impacts of my individual actions, including things like flying and driving and maybe having a kid.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, and Jade understands that too. She is really sympathetic to the emotions that that climate change elicits.

[Jade Sasser]

It is in fact, according to environmental psychologists, quite normal to feel deeply anxious about these changes in our environment. There's nothing wrong with the feeling of climate anxiety or being reproductively anxious in response.

[Emily Kwong]

This is a whole field of research now, climate anxiety, sometimes called climate distress. It's defined as the psychological distress that individuals experience due to climate change and its impact impacts. And this growing body of research is showing that, yes, climate change is harming people's mental health and affecting their life choices. These are not flimsy feelings.

[Hannah Chin]

I think it helps to hear that because I don't even know what my future is going to look like. Right. So how could I bring another new human being into that?

[Emily Kwong]

Absolutely. It's a concern, especially among our generation, among Gen Z and younger millennials. Jade took this topic so seriously. She wrote an entire book about it called Climate Anxiety and the Kid Question. And she told me that we don't know yet if people's climate, reproductive concerns or hesitancy is driving large scale demographic changes.

[Hannah Chin]

Right. We do know that birth rates in the US are down, but it kind of seems like that's due to a variety of factors. Right. The cost of living crisis, job and housing, insecurity, a lack of social safety nets, et cetera, et cetera. So we can't attribute it solely to climate change. Maybe we'll know in 10 years once more Gen Z and young millennials have.

[Emily Kwong]

Kids or don't have kids. So if you're struggling with this decision, here's what Kimberly has to say.

[Kimberly Nicholas]

For people who don't want a child, who don't see themselves as a parent, I think that's a really valid choice and something that needs to be accepted and supported. But if you feel like your time on Earth is going to be missing something essential and have a big hole in your heart if you don't have a child, then I think you should absolutely go for it. And that gives you more energy and incentive to fight for and work for a better future and do these high impact climate actions that will help us get there.

[Hannah Chin]

In fact, Kimberly says the people best positioned to do those high impact climate actions aren't just politicians and energy CEOs. They're also anyone who makes a little over US$42,000 a year. Those people are part of the top 10% richest people on earth and we have a lot of power in this situation.

[Kimberly Nicholas]

If you are lucky enough to live in a democracy, then you have citizen actions available to you, which most of the world does not.

[Emily Kwong]

To figure out what actions you can take, Kimberly has created a high impact climate action guide based on a study that she and researcher Christian Nielsen published in the journal Nature in 2021. It's kind of a choose your own adventure that you can fill out online.

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, we'll link to this guide in the episode notes. And when I was working through this guide, I was struck by how many of these actions were things that we do collectively, like encouraging your loved ones to take their money out of banks that use fossil fuels or working with your union to change industry standards. Here's Jade again.

[Jade Sasser]

I think it's really important to reframe that narrative and understand this is a large scale social, political and structural problem. And when we take these on as personal problems or individual problems that we suffer with in silence, it actually lets our leaders off the hook and they should be on the hook.

[Hannah Chin]

So researchers say, if you're hearing all this and you're upset, join the fight.

[Elizabeth Bayshard]

I think the first thing that I would want to say to parents is just, I see how hard you are working.

[Hannah Chin]

Elizabeth Bayshard got involved back in 2018. That was the year Hurricane Florence devastated coastal North Carolina, where she grew up. And the IPCC came out with a report saying we have 12 years left to keep global warming below 1.5 degrees Celsius and limit globally climate catastrophe.

[Elizabeth Bayshard]

And you know, I remember thinking, my kids, they'll be 14 in 12 years. That's not even the full length of their childhood.

[Emily Kwong]

So now Elizabeth works for a group called Mom's Clean Air Force that mobilizes parents and caregivers. She's also written a book called Parenting in a Changing Climate in which she tells parents to find support around this issue.

[Elizabeth Bayshard]

You need community. We all need community. None of us were meant to carry this alone. So if you, you know, have a tiny baby and all you can do is sign up for the email Parent Climate Group, that is a place to start.

[Emily Kwong]

Another place to start is with feelings. Jade recommended this tool called the Climate emotions wheel to help kids process how they feel, but more importantly, help parents talk about how they're feeling. Yeah, research shows that one of the barriers for parents even talking about climate change with their kids is their own unprocessed emotions. So Elizabeth shares those emotions with her twins. They see her pain and they see her taking action on it.

[Elizabeth Bayshard]

They are also aware that there are a lot of adults, including their mom, who are working on it and who are not giving up and who are fighting every day for their future.

[Hannah Chin]

And Emily, that's the last thing that really stuck with me, that caring for a child can also be a hopeful thing to do. It can connect us to each other, it can help us act because the future isn't set in stone. And that's true whether we have kids in our lives or not. We've linked all the resources we mentioned in our episode notes, along with books written by our guests for whatever role kids and climate might play in your life.

[Emily Kwong]

And just as a reminder, Nature Quest is our new monthly series. It is built around you and on the changes you're noticing in the world around you. So send us a voice memo with your name, where you live and your question and we might make it into a whole episode.

[Hannah Chin]

This episode was produced by Hannah Chin and Rachel Carlson. It was edited by our showrunner Rebecca Ramirez, and fact checked by Tyler Jones. Jimmy Keeley was the audio engineer.

[Emily Kwong]

Special thanks to Sam Paulson for writing the NatureQuest theme music. Beth Donovan is our Senior director and Colin Campbell is our Senior Vice President of Podcasting Strategy. I'm Emily Kwong.

[Hannah Chin]

And I'm Hannah Chin.

[Emily Kwong]

Thank you for listening to Shortwave from npr.

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