Sea Camp: To Mine Or Not To Mine

Summary

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Short Wave – “Sea Camp: To Mine Or Not To Mine”

NPR • Hosts: Emily Kwong & Regina Barber • August 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

In the final episode of the "Sea Camp" summer series, hosts Emily Kwong and Regina Barber dive into the controversial topic of deep sea mining. They explore the science, politics, and environmental stakes surrounding the extraction of rare earth elements (REEs) from the ocean’s benthic zone. With exclusive insights from scientists and industry leaders, the episode evaluates whether deep sea mining is a necessary step toward a “green transition” or a dangerous threat to irreplaceable marine ecosystems.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Deep Sea Mining

• The ocean floor (benthic zone) hosts nodules containing rare earth elements, critical for modern technologies (phones, EVs, fighter jets).
• Current land-based mining practices are highly destructive; thus, interest shifts to deep sea mining.

“The deep sea is home to a lot of things... but it’s also home to nodules of rare earth elements used for everything from smartphones to electric cars...”
— Emily Kwong [00:41]

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2. The Regulatory Wild West

• Deep sea mining is largely unregulated; the UN International Seabed Authority (ISA) is working on rules.
• Some companies and countries, unsatisfied with the pace, are pushing forward without waiting for regulations.
• Examples: U.S. under President Trump fast-tracking mining; Norway’s government contemplating issuing licenses soon.

“The deep sea cannot become the Wild West.”
— UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres (quoted by Emily) [01:41]

“They want green transition, but they don’t want the effect of the green transition because the green transition is, is mining. You cannot take that out.”
— Walter Sognes, CEO, Glomar Minerals [03:06]

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3. Science of the Nodules – Formation and Ecosystem Importance

a. Formation of Nodules

• Form in the Clarion Clipperton Zone (CCZ) – international waters between Hawaii and Mexico.
• Two formation processes:
  1. Adsorption: Metals accumulate on falling objects (bones, teeth) over millions of years from the water column.
  2. Diffusion: Microbes break down organic marine snow, releasing metals that migrate up and attach to nodules.
• Nodules grow at just tens of millimeters per million years—effectively non-renewable.

“The CCZ is an ancient and pristine place. It’s kind of like an old-growth forest, but in the ocean.”
— Emily Kwong [06:01]

“At an average rate of tens of millimeters per million years... these nodules are not a renewable resource.”
— Emily Kwong [06:20]

b. Ecosystem Anchors

• Serve as essential habitats for corals, anemones, worms, brittle stars, crustaceans, and countless microorganisms.

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4. Green Transition vs. Environmental Impact

• Proponents argue deep sea mining is crucial for the transition to green tech due to metals needed in EV batteries and wind turbines.
• Other technology shifts (e.g., sodium-ion batteries) and recycling offer alternatives, though still in the early stages.

“Standing on the shoulders or the foundation for a green transition is all these different minerals...”
— Walter Sognes [08:41]

• Currently, China dominates REE supply chains, raising concerns about global dependence and environmental regulation standards.

“The issue is then where are they mined from and who is controlling the mining.”
— Walter Sognes [09:26]

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5. Environmental Uncertainties and Known Risks

• Historic mining “test sites” in the CCZ and Peru Basin simulate long-term effects.
• Recovery in disturbed areas is extremely slow—decades later, environments show little to no rebound.

“The sediment had very little recovery.”
— Emily Kwong [12:27]

“They basically looked like yesterday. The specific fauna that needs these hard substrates... for their life, the basis... is gone permanently on our human timescales.”
— Matthias Haeckel, Marine Geochemist [12:29 / 12:55]

• Mining vehicles generate sediment “plumes,” affecting water and habitats well beyond the extraction site.
• 38 countries have called for a moratorium—to pause deep sea mining until impacts are better understood.

“It is clear these environments are fragile. They take a long time to recover.”
— Emily Kwong [13:41]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Political & Economic Stakes:
  “Walter equates REEs to oil, which is largely controlled by countries in the Middle East. ... Deep sea mining could be an effective short-term solution to distributing that power...”
  — Regina Barber [09:59]

• On Technological Shifts:
  “There is a push to not use metals that would be mined in the oceans though.” — Emily Kwong [09:09]

• On Irreplaceable Loss:
  “If mining were to ever happen someday and nodules were to be removed, Matthias says they would not come back anytime soon.”
  — Emily Kwong [12:51]

• On Caution and Balance:
  “It does have to be a balance. But what is the right balance, you know?”
  — Emily Kwong [11:23]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:41: Introduction to deep sea nodules and their technology relevance
• 01:24: Regulatory status & ISA background
• 02:17: Countries pushing ahead; the case of Norway & The Metals Company
• 05:02: Science of the CCZ and nodule formation begins
• 08:20: Economic argument for deep sea mining; green transition
• 09:26: Geopolitics of mineral control; China’s dominance
• 11:03: Recycling & techno-innovation challenges
• 12:04: Deep-sea disturbance experiments and results
• 13:41: Call for moratorium and reflections on ecosystem fragility

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Conclusion

This episode brings listeners to the crossroads of climate solutions and conservation, highlighting that the promise of deep sea mining comes with profound scientific, ethical, and environmental questions. While proponents champion it as necessary for green technology and strategic autonomy, scientists warn of lasting, possibly irreversible damage to some of Earth’s most ancient and unspoiled ecosystems. The debate continues, with the future of the ocean’s “old-growth forests” hanging in the balance.

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Transcript

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[Emily Kwong]

Today, you're listening to shortwave from npr.

[Regina Barber]

Hey, shortwavers.

[Emily Kwong]

Regina Barber here and Emily Kwong with news with We've reached the final episode in our summertime series Sea Camp.

[Regina Barber]

And our final story brings us back to the ocean floor, the benthic zone, with one of the most significant human activities in the deep sea, mining.

[Emily Kwong]

The deep sea is home to a lot of things, animals, sand, but it's also sediment. Sediment, but it's also home to nodules of rare earth elements, elements used for everything from smartphones to electric cars to fighter jets.

[Matthias Haeckel]

And the ones that are of economic interest are then cobalt, nickel, copper, rare earth elements, lithium and others.

[Emily Kwong]

This is Matthias Haeckel, a marine geochemist at Guillaumer Helmholtz center for Ocean Research, Kiel in Germany.

[Regina Barber]

Currently, these metals, cobalt, nickel, copper, are mined on land, which is super destructive to the environment. So mining companies have long wanted to open the ocean for commercial mining.

[Emily Kwong]

But commercial mining in the deep sea is not regulated. There's no blueprint for how to do it safely. Which is why for the Last decade, the UN's International Seabed Authority has worked to draw up regulations, basically rules for how countries should mine in international waters. At the UN Ocean Summit in early June, the UN Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, called for countries to respect the ISA's process. I support the ongoing work of the International Seabed Authority on this important issue. The deep sea cannot become the Wild West.

[Regina Barber]

But mining companies and some countries don't want to wait any longer.

[Emily Kwong]

This spring, President Trump signed an executive order to fast track deep sea mining in both domestic and international waters, basically in defiance of the Isaac and the company.

[Regina Barber]

Among the first to throw their hat into the ring is the metals Company, a Canadian startup led by Gerard Barron. Speaking to Daniel Ackerman for NPR earlier this year, he compared these polymetallic nodules to golf balls.

[Matthias Haeckel]

They literally sit there like golf balls on a driving range. We can pick those nodules up and turn them into metals at a fraction of the environmental and human impacts compared to land based mining.

[Emily Kwong]

Norway's government has also been pushing for deep sea mining in their own waters. That so far hasn't come to pass because of pressure from environmental groups that oppose mining.

[Regina Barber]

But Walter Sognes, CEO of Glomar Minerals, thinks that the first step towards mining in Norwegian waters. Issuing licenses to mining companies could start soon, like early 2026. And he has a response for those who are against this kind of mining.

[Walter Sognes]

They want green transition, but they don't want the effect of the green transition because the green transition is, is mining. You cannot take that out of the equation.

[Regina Barber]

Today on the show, in the clash between the mining industry and international regulators, what does deep sea science have to say?

[Emily Kwong]

What happens when we disturb the sediment at the bottom of the sea?

[Regina Barber]

I'm Regina Barber.

[Emily Kwong]

And I'm Emily Kwong. And you're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from n.

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[Matthias Haeckel]

I have kids under 18, so like, time is very limited. That's why at BetterHelp, our therapists try to have sessions, sometimes at night, depending on the therapist or during the weekend. So I think that's what we need to tell the parents. You're not alone. We can help you out.

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[Regina Barber]

All right, Em, let's start with science. How are rare earth elements developing in the deep sea? So, and let's also call them rees from now on.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay, I'm going to hit you with another acronym.

[Regina Barber]

Oh no.

[Emily Kwong]

The ccz. Okay, so the zone of the ocean at the center of this debate, where a lot of the REEs are, is the Clarion Clipperton zone, right, the CCZ. This is an area that stretches from Hawaii to about Mexico in international waters. So an enormous ocean space Diva Aman is a marine biologist affiliated with the Benioff Ocean Initiative at the University of California, Santa Barbara. And she's traveled to so many different parts of the ocean, including the Clarion Clipperton zone, which contains billions of tons of what are known as polymetallic nodules, these cherry to potato sized lumps of metal, if you will, that sit on top of the sediment and act as anchor points for all kinds of marine life. So things like corals, anemones, sponges, worms, they all attach to these nodules and.

[Regina Barber]

Those become a home for mobile organisms. Right, like brittle stars and crustaceans. And like all kinds of microorganisms too.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, A lot depends on these nodules. Matthias, the German scientist we met earlier and diva emphasized again and again that that the clarion clipperton zone, the ccz, is an ancient and pristine place. It's kind of like an old growth forest, but in the ocean. And the nodules down there grow super slowly.

[Regina Barber]

Right.

[Emily Kwong]

At an average rate of tens of millimeters per million years. So like fossil fuels. These nodules are not a renewable resource.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, em, let's talk about like how these nodules form in the first place over that long period of time.

[Emily Kwong]

Millions of years.

[Regina Barber]

Right. Like, so why are so many metals inside of them?

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, There are two main ways to make a nodule. Adsorption of metals through the water column and diffusion of metals from the sediment. Let's talk about adsorption first.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, I was going to say I've never heard adsorption before.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, me neither. It happens when a particle, so picture a fishbone or a shark tooth Falls to the bottom of the ocean floor.

[Regina Barber]

My eyes are closed. I can see it.

[Emily Kwong]

Yep. It's just like drifting down. It lands. And then over millions of years, Metals from the water column Accumulate around that shark tooth and coat the tooth with layers of adsorbed metals, Mainly manganese oxides and iron oxyhydroxides, which co precipitate to produce the metals that everyone's talking about.

[Regina Barber]

Right, this cobalt, nickel, copper, these rare earth elements, Rees.

[Emily Kwong]

Yes, that's the first way. The second way, Diffusion is driven by microbes breaking down organic material.

[Regina Barber]

So where is this organic material coming from?

[Emily Kwong]

It comes from the upper ocean, from those endless predator prey relationships We've heard about through sea camp. Organisms dying and digesting and pooping. All of that organic material Sinks down to the sea floor.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, I've heard it called marine snow. And less than 1% of marine snow makes it all the way down.

[Emily Kwong]

But given the chance, Microbes in the sediment will degrade that organic material. And during this process, metals are released. Diffusion then transports these metals to the sediment surface.

[Matthias Haeckel]

They oxidize again and then precipitate as oxyhydroxides and get incorporated into the manganese.

[Emily Kwong]

Nodules and form dun dun dun polymetallic nodules.

[Matthias Haeckel]

That's a second pathway and that's a little bit faster than the adsorption through the water column.

[Regina Barber]

And this is where science meets economics. Right? Em, like proponents of the deep sea mining say that there can't be this large scale transition to green energy when without deep sea mining. Because the batteries used in electric vehicles contain the very metals found in deep sea nodules as nickel, copper and cobalt. And there's been a big surge in EV demand since the 2010s.

[Walter Sognes]

There is a reason why all countries and all nations, they have a critical mineral strategy. It's because standing on the shoulders or the foundation for a green transition is all these different minerals. We are putting away the hydrocarbons, electronics.

[Regina Barber]

That's Walter again, the CEO of Glomor Minerals. Now a lot of this green technology is actually moving away from using RE's. Like some battery manufacturers in China have already shifted away and launched sodium ion batteries for these EVs instead.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, we've definitely reported this on the show before. There is a push to not use metals that would be mined in the oceans though. What does Walter have to say about that?

[Regina Barber]

So some people, including Walter, say deep sea mining is about shifting political control of these metals.

[Walter Sognes]

The issue is then where are they mined from and who is controlling the mining.

[Regina Barber]

For over 30 years, China has dominated the RE supply chain from mines to owning the processing and recycling plants, all with very little environmental regulation. Which is part of why right now China is among the most contaminated regions on the planet. And for the rest of the world, we're dependent on China for the vast majority of this REE supply.

[Walter Sognes]

It's going to be very difficult for Western companies to come into that. And the deep sea minerals are an alternative.

[Regina Barber]

Walter equates res to oil, which is largely controlled by countries in the Middle east. And the supply and the price are very subject to their decisions. And so he says deep sea mining could be an effective short term solution to distributing that power because those nodules are largely in international waters which are not controlled by any one country.

[Emily Kwong]

Oh, I'm starting to see the political dynamics at play here. Yes, though short term. Right. Because again, long term companies may move away from products that require rare rare earth elements. You mentioned earlier, sodium ion batteries and alternative tech.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, and countries may be able to build up the recycling capabilities for these metals, Though for that to happen at a larger scale, it's still a ways away. A review paper I found claims Europe is recycling these metals the most, but that's only at 5%. And also this thirst for current EV vehicles, wind turbines, weapons, the supply doesn't seem to be meeting the demand Walter also doesn't believe we have enough of these metals now and that the ocean is the more reasonable place to get them.

[Walter Sognes]

Any mining will disturb where it's mined. So we are saying that with current technology, we believe that disturbance we are making in the ocean is a less of effect than the mining in the rainforest, for instance. So it has to be a balance.

[Emily Kwong]

It does have to be a balance. But what is the right balance, you know?

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, I mean, we don't know exactly what mining will do to the ocean floor. There has been testing sites. Yes. And that's true. And you looked into this, like, what did those reveal?

[Emily Kwong]

Yes, there have been quite a few studies on the potential environmental impact of deep sea mining. One of the most significant is the European JPI Oceans Project mining impact, which Matthias has led since 2015. As part of their work, they went to two places, the Clarion Clipperton zone, the CCZ. Yes. Which we've been talking about, and a part of the Peru Basin to look.

[Matthias Haeckel]

How in the last up to four decades, these disturbance experiment areas have evolved.

[Emily Kwong]

In the 80s and 90s, both the CCZ and the Peru Basin were used to stage experimental sites, basically areas where scientists simulated mining by disturbing the sediment.

[Regina Barber]

So I mean, what does it, what does it look like decades later?

[Emily Kwong]

The sediment had very little recovery.

[Matthias Haeckel]

They basically looked like yesterday. And the reason for that is that the energy flow into the deep sea.

[Emily Kwong]

Is very low because like you said, Gina, less than 1% of marine snow of that organic material falls into the deep sea. Everything down there just grows so slowly. So if mining were to ever happen someday and nodules were to be removed, Matthias says they would not come back anytime soon.

[Matthias Haeckel]

They are gone. So the specific fauna that needs these hard substrates, the manganese nodules, for their life, the basis of their life is gone permanently on our human timescales, which.

[Emily Kwong]

Means there could be fewer animals and less biodiversity in places where mining has happened. This could affect habitats all the way up the water column.

[Regina Barber]

Right. Because historically, the vehicles that have gathered up these nodules use a suction device like a vacuum cleaner to remove the top 15 cm of sediment, which kicks up a huge mining plume.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah. It creates almost a dust cloud in the ocean.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. And as material gets pumped to the surface for processing, the nodules are kept and all the other material just goes back down into the ocean.

[Emily Kwong]

Right. Kind of affecting habitat all the way to the bottom. And now there are newer and better methods for deep sea mining right there. But at least when you look at just the research, what we know from these test sites, it is clear these environments are fragile. They take a long time to recover. And it's one of many reasons that 38 countries have now called for a moratorium, a pause on deep sea mining until scientists can figure out the safest way to do it.

[Regina Barber]

This episode was produced by Rachel Carlson and Burleigh McCoy. It was edited by our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez and Tyler Jones. Check the facts. Jimmy Keeley was the audio engineer, Beth Donovan is our senior director, and Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Regina Barber.

[Emily Kwong]

And I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to this final episode of Sea Camp, the summer ocean series from Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

[Regina Barber]

Just keep swimming, just keep swimming Just.

[Emily Kwong]

Keep swimming, Just keep swimming, swimming, swim.

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[Emily Kwong]

Nearly 30% of marathoners end their race blistered. Bombas running socks are strategically cushioned to help. Say bye to blisters. Run to bombus.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase. Support for NPR comes from DonorsChoose. In a time full of uncertainty, one thing is Students are ready to learn, to dream, to grow. But they need fully stocked classrooms to thrive. Every pencil, book and paintbrush funded through Donors choose helps unlock creativity, confidence and a brighter future. Learn how to [e-mail] backtoschool.