The Indicator: American Science Brain Drain

Summary

Short Wave Podcast Summary: "The Indicator: American Science Brain Drain"

Release Date: May 12, 2025

In this insightful episode of NPR's Short Wave, hosts Emily Kwong and Regina Barber delve into the pressing issue of the American Science Brain Drain. Drawing from the collaborative reporting of Darian Woods and Adrienne Ma from NPR's daily economics podcast, The Indicator, the episode explores the factors driving U.S. scientists to seek opportunities abroad and the broader implications for the nation's scientific community.

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1. Introduction to the Science Brain Drain

The episode opens with Regina Barber introducing the topic, highlighting recent labor reports indicating a significant trend among U.S. scientists considering relocation. Darian Woods mentions that the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported an addition of 177,000 jobs in April, signaling a robust economy. However, the focus shifts to a concerning trend: the interested exodus of scientists from the United States.

Darian Woods [00:41]: "The important thing for you and Short Wave listeners is that recently co-host Adrienne Ma and I zoomed in specifically on scientists and the U.S."

2. Factors Contributing to the Brain Drain

The core of the discussion revolves around several destabilizing factors within the U.S. scientific landscape:

• Federal Funding Cuts: Darian Woods points out that frozen NIH funding and government layoffs are primary drivers pushing scientists to seek opportunities abroad.

  Darian Woods [01:10]: "The frozen NIH funding and government layoffs are pushing some scientists abroad."

• Increased Job Insecurity: Armando Rosario LeBron, a biological science technician at the Smithsonian Institution, shares his personal struggles amidst recent job cuts. As a union vice president, Armando has witnessed firsthand the anxiety among his colleagues regarding job security.

  Armando Rosario LeBron [06:06]: "We have employees who every day are really worried that they're going to make a misstep. Will I say the wrong thing one day and I will be fired."

• Declining Funding for Research: The episode highlights how institutions like the NIH have blocked numerous grant applications, stifling crucial research areas. For instance, Adrienne Ma notes that 33 grants related to studying vaccine hesitancy and uptake were terminated by the NIH.

  Adrienne Ma [08:40]: "Already we've seen 33 grants related to studying vaccine hesitancy and uptake terminated by the National Institutes of Health."

3. Personal Stories Highlighting the Exodus

Armando Rosario LeBron's story serves as a poignant example of the brain drain phenomenon:

• Passion for Entomology: Armando, who works full-time at the Smithsonian and consults for Hollywood productions, reflects on his deep-seated passion for entomology. Despite his love for his job, the uncertain future due to funding cuts compelled him to consider further studies abroad.

  Armando Rosario LeBron [06:35]: "What other job like this exists in the world that you can work with your love of bugs... I mean, it doesn't get any better than this."

• Decision to Leave: Faced with an offer from a PhD program in the UK and mounting job insecurity, Armando decides to relocate, marking a personal loss for the U.S. scientific community.

  Armando Rosario LeBron [10:31]: "You can tell, I do a lot of different things. We're losing a lot of expertise in this kind of agricultural entomology."

4. Canada's Response to the Brain Drain

In response to the growing concern, Kevin Smith, President and CEO of University Health Network (UHN) in Canada, shares his organization's proactive measures to attract American scientists:

• Increased Interest from U.S. Scientists: Kevin observes a five to tenfold increase in inquiries from U.S.-based scientists looking to move to Canada, particularly from prestigious institutions like Harvard and Stanford.

  Kevin Smith [07:56]: "It's a big. It was a big deal... five to 10x increase."

• Recruitment Strategy: UHN has initiated a plan to recruit 100 early-career scientists, leveraging philanthropic support to build a robust scientific community in Canada.

  Kevin Smith [09:19]: "We stepped back and said this is a profound opportunity that we have not seen, at least in my career, to this level and why don't we move on it?"

• Attracting Diverse Expertise: The outreach spans various fields, including cancer research, neuroscience, organ transplants, and the application of AI in healthcare.

  Adrienne Ma [09:27]: "They span cancer researchers, neuroscientists, experts in organ transplants, and also people using AI to answer health questions."

5. Institutional and Governmental Responses

The episode also touches upon the reactions from key institutions and the government regarding the brain drain:

• NIH's Stance: The NIH emphasizes its commitment to fostering a vibrant biomedical research workforce despite the challenges.

  Darian Woods [10:07]: "We asked both the NIH and the White House if they were concerned. The NIH responded that it is committed to fostering a vibrant biomedical research workforce."

• White House Position: A spokesperson for the White House mentions efforts to realign research spending to maintain America's innovative edge, albeit amidst critiques of the current administration's policies.

  White House Spokesperson Kush Desai [10:31]: "The Trump administration had been reviewing the previous administration's projects, identifying waste and realigning research spending to maintain America's innovative dominance."

6. Implications and Future Outlook

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of the science brain drain:

• Loss of Expertise: The departure of skilled scientists like Armando represents not just a personal loss but also a significant gap in expertise within U.S. institutions.

  Adrienne Ma [10:54]: "We're losing a lot of expertise in this kind of agricultural entomology."

• Opportunity for Other Nations: Countries like Canada are poised to benefit from this influx, potentially reversing the traditional flow of the brain drain where smaller countries lose talent to the U.S.

  Adrienne Ma [09:53]: "Brain drain is something that happens to smaller countries all the time... Now it seems that the tables could be turning."

• Calls for Policy Reevaluation: The situation underscores the urgent need for the U.S. to reassess its funding and support structures to retain its scientific talent.

Conclusion

"The Indicator: American Science Brain Drain" sheds light on a critical issue threatening the United States' standing in the global scientific arena. Through compelling personal narratives and expert insights, the episode underscores the urgent need for policy interventions to stem the exodus of talented scientists. As nations like Canada seize the opportunity to attract these professionals, the U.S. faces a pivotal moment to reclaim and reinforce its scientific workforce.

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Notable Quotes:

• Armando Rosario LeBron [06:06]: "We have employees who every day are really worried that they're going to make a misstep. Will I say the wrong thing one day and I will be fired."

• Kevin Smith [07:56]: "It's a big. It was a big deal. And what was most notable is where they were from."

• Adrienne Ma [09:27]: "They span cancer researchers, neuroscientists, experts in organ transplants, and also people using AI to answer health questions."

Credits:

This episode was produced in collaboration with The Indicator by Julia Richie, engineered by Maggie Luthar and Sina Lofredo, fact-checked by Sierra Juarez, and edited by Kate Concannon. For Short Wave, production was handled by Burleigh McCoy and edited by showrunner Rebecca Ramirez.

Transcript

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[Regina Barber]

You're listening to Shortwave from NPR. Hey, Shortwavers, Regina Barber here with one of the co Hosts of NPR's daily economics podcast, the Indicator from Planet Money, Darian Woods. Hey, Darian.

[Darian Woods]

Hey, Gina.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, so we brought you on because of some labor reporting you've been doing.

[Adrienne Ma]

Yeah.

[Darian Woods]

This is a regular installment at the Indicator. We look at how many jobs the US Economy has added.

[Regina Barber]

Okay.

[Darian Woods]

The latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show us that it was 177,000 jobs in April, which is a pretty healthy number. But the important thing for you and shortwave listeners is that recently co host Adrienne Ma and I zoomed in specifically on scientists and the U.S. right.

[Regina Barber]

Like all of the federal spending cuts that have been like changing the landscape for people who like do the science that we discuss on shortwave day in and day out.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah. The frozen NIH funding and government layoffs are pushing some scientists abroad.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. I remember reading like 75% of respondents to this Nature poll back in March have considered leaving the United States.

[Darian Woods]

And some of those people are putting their money where their mouths are.

[Regina Barber]

I actually know some researchers who are applying abroad.

[Adrienne Ma]

Okay.

[Darian Woods]

Well, they might make up some of the next statistic, which is that the jobs website Nature careers saw a 32% increase in US based scientists applying for jobs elsewhere in the first three months of this year.

[Regina Barber]

That is so much, it's real. So today on the show, the Scientific Brain drain, Darian and Adrienne get personal with a Hollywood entomologist reconsidering the United States and a Canadian CEO who's seen an opportunity to attract world leading health scientists over the border. You're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

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[Darian Woods]

Armando Rosario Lebron has been into bugs ever since he was a kid in Puerto Rico.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

Spending a lot of time in the rainforest will do that to you. I think it's one of those things where it's the closest thing to studying. Like a little alien. Sometimes it's just a joy.

[Adrienne Ma]

Oh, little Armando. Well, little Armando grew up to be Big Armando, who actually works with bugs for a living. On the side, he consults for film and tv. Like he's consulted on spiders for Netflix's House of Cards and on hissing cockroaches for chef Gordon Ramsay's new show, Secret Service.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

We were putting the hissing roaches across a table so that Gordon's head was going to pop over the table. A few of them kept ending up in his hair. So I was digging hissing roaches out of Gordon Ramsay's hair. That was interesting.

[Adrienne Ma]

I would love to hear the outtakes from that filming session.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah, it may not be safe for radio broadcast. Armando's full time job, though, is working at the Smithsonian Institution. There, he's a biological science technician. He specializes in looking after the collections that include the aphids and the whiteflies. He's also a union vice president representing many federal workers involved with border biosecurity. He explains the importance of entomology at the border. Like this.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

I like to start this with the story of a banana. Okay. Imagine a banana begins in Costa Rica and it arrives at a port of entry.

[Adrienne Ma]

Yeah. And actually picture a whole freight load of bananas. These bananas are inspected by a Customs and Border Protection officer who might have been trained by an entomologist. And if they see a strange bug in these bananas, that bug might be sent to an entomologist for identification. Meanwhile, the freight unloading is paused because the wrong insects getting into the US can be economically crushing.

[Darian Woods]

That could be hundreds of millions of dollars of damage to the US farmers. Is that right?

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

Potentially billions.

[Darian Woods]

Potentially billions, yeah.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

I mean, I give people the worst case scenario of what happened and it was the citrus industry from Florida. What if I told you that 92% of Florida oranges has declined because of a psyllid. Asian citrus psyllid came in, brought in a bacterial infection that infects the trees, devastated the industry, and then hurricanes came in and there were other factors, but that psyllid was a big, big factor in this.

[Darian Woods]

But recently, with job cuts, resignation offers and funding freezes, Armando was wondering whether he want working in the us. He says he lost three technicians thanks to the recent job cuts in February. And as a union representative, Armando has spent countless hours on the phone talking with distressed colleagues.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

We have employees who every day are really worried that they're going to make a misstep. Will I say the wrong thing one day and I will be fired. And this environment of fear is everywhere.

[Adrienne Ma]

A few months ago, Armando applied for a PhD program in the UK and in March he was accepted. But he was also torn about whether to take the offer, given how much he loved his current job at the Smithsonian.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

I mean, what other job like this exists in the world that you can work with your love of bugs, work in these collections that are just world class and to have this really important mission where it's keeping the country having a great safe food supply, keeping invasive pests out, I mean, it doesn't get any better than this.

[Darian Woods]

Each to their own.

[Adrienne Ma]

Clearly, Armando has found bug bliss, right? He's so passionate about what he does, really like any institution looking for an entomologist would be lucky to have him.

[Darian Woods]

Yeah, that is true. Overseas universities, hospitals and labs are rubbing their hands at all these enthusiastic smart people like Armando suddenly considering leaving the US. Kevin Smith is the President and CE of University Health Network in Canada.

[Kevin Smith]

It's about 44,000 people who make up the community at UHN.

[Darian Woods]

That's like the size of a city.

[Kevin Smith]

Well, a small city for sure, but by far Canada's largest academic health science centre.

[Adrienne Ma]

Kevin says a few months ago he was hearing from his researchers that something unusual was happening.

[Kevin Smith]

All of a sudden the phone started ringing and saying, hey, I'm kind of interested in what opportunities you have. It was a sizable shift. I would say it was, you know, five to 10x increase.

[Darian Woods]

Huh? Five to 10 times.

[Kevin Smith]

It's a big. It was a big deal. And what was most notable is where they were from. Among the finest academic organizations in the United States. Harvard, Stanford, nih, National Cancer Institute, Hopkins, the list goes on. We were hearing from a lot of early career scientists who'd recently discovered that perhaps their funding was not as assured for even the next year.

[Darian Woods]

The NIH has been blocking thousands of grant applications and has threatened billions of dollars of further health sciences funding if scientists weren't asking the right questions.

[Kevin Smith]

For example, some in vaccine science who felt like maybe they'd have less access to grants than they had in the past.

[Adrienne Ma]

Already we've seen 33 grants related to studying vaccine hesitancy and uptake terminated by the National Institutes of Health. The FDA has also made a new COVID vaccine go through extra testing hoops.

[Darian Woods]

And the Trump administration has been threatening to withdraw funding from colleges like Harvard unless they change the way they recruit and also how they admit international students. So Kevin thought there may be an opportunity here. He spoke with his senior leadership team and board.

[Kevin Smith]

We stepped back and said this is a profound opportunity that we have not seen, at least in my career, to this level and why don't we move on it?

[Darian Woods]

They came up with a plan to work with philanthropists and other funders to recruit 100 early career scientists to their hospital system.

[Adrienne Ma]

Kevin says around 400 people have already formally inquired. They span cancer researchers, neuroscientists, experts in organ transplants, and also people using AI to answer health questions.

[Kevin Smith]

Scientists are sending a message. They want to be in an environment where they can ask curiosity driven questions that are of importance to them and they want to be able to disseminate the results of those findings.

[Adrienne Ma]

Brain drain is something that happens to smaller countries all the time. Their high performers go overseas looking for opportunities, often in the US it can be bad for these smaller countries economies. And now it seems that the tables could be turning.

[Darian Woods]

We asked both the NIH and the White House if they were concerned. The NIH responded that it is committed to fostering a vibrant biomedical research workforce. And White House spokesperson Kush Desai said the Trump administration had been reviewing the previous administration's projects, identifying waste and realigning research spending to maintain America's innovative dominance.

[Adrienne Ma]

As for Armando, the entomologist, he reflected on all the chaos that he's been seeing and he decided, yeah, he's going to take that PhD offer in the UK and he actually moves in September.

[Darian Woods]

So what is the US losing by having Hollywood consultant entomologist union leader Armando Rosario LeBron leave the U.S. well, as.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

You can tell, I do a lot of different things. We're losing a lot of expertise in this kind of agricultural entomology. I do my knowledge of the collections we have here, my knowledge of how we operate, we're losing that expertise.

[Adrienne Ma]

And that's not even taking into account the creepy crawlies that we lose from TV shows.

[Darian Woods]

I think Gordon Ramsay will be happy about that.

[Regina Barber]

That was Darian woods with the Indicator Podcast along with co host Adrienne Ma Darian. Thank you so much for bringing your reporting to Short Wave listeners.

[Darian Woods]

You're welcome.

[Regina Barber]

This episode was originally produced for the Indicator by Julia Richie with engineering by Maggie Luthar and Sina Lofredo. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. Kate Concannon edits the Indicator. It was produced for Short wave by Burleigh McCoy and edited by showrunner Rebecca Ramirez. I'm Regina Barber. Thank you for listening to this special collab episode of Short Wave from npr.

[Armando Rosario LeBron]

Foreign.

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