The Indicator: Take A Penny, Leave A Penny, Get Rid Of The Penny

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Short Wave (NPR)
Episode: The Indicator: Take A Penny, Leave A Penny, Get Rid Of The Penny
Date: December 18, 2025
Hosts: Emily Kwong, Darian Woods, Waylon Wong
Main Theme:
This episode, a collaboration with NPR’s economics podcast The Indicator, dives into the end of the penny’s long run as an American coin. Through voices from history, art, and finance, it explores why the penny is disappearing, its cultural resonance, and what happens to all those coins still in circulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Penny in History and Culture

• Pennies Are Ubiquitous:
  • "Pennies are everywhere. They're between our couch cushions and on the floor of our cars. They're in fountains and junk drawers. And there's even a penny on Mars." — Waylon Wong [02:08]
• A Symbol of America:
  • Christina Shutt (Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum) highlights that the penny’s design was changed in 1909 to feature Lincoln, making him the first US president to appear on a circulating coin.
  • "If the one thing that you know, some other life form knows about us is Abraham Lincoln, like, that's a pretty good representation of what's the best of us, right?" — Christina Shutt [02:50]

2. The End of Penny Production

• The Final Penny Minted:
  • In November 2025, the US government minted the very last penny.
  • "There are still around 300 billion pennies in circulation. That's almost nine bucks for every person in the U.S. but the coin's 232 year run is coming to an end." — Waylon Wong [03:16]

3. Why the Penny Became a Problem

• Rising Costs:
  • Ed Moy, US Mint director (2006–2011), explains the economics:
    • The Mint tries to break even or profit via 'seigniorage'–making coins for less than face value and sending the profit to the US Treasury.
    • Dimes, quarters, and dollar coins made money; pennies and nickels didn't.
    • "2006 was the first year that the cost of making a penny went above $0.01... I started consulting with Congress saying costs are going up." — Ed Moy [06:37]
• Lawmakers’ Response:
  • Congress did not see the penny’s losses as urgent. The scale: $80 million lost annually is "a rounding error of a rounding error in the federal government." — Ed Moy [07:24]
  • 2025: A penny costs 3.7 cents to produce.

4. Alternative Penny Materials Considered—and Rejected

• Swapping zinc or copper for cheaper metals like steel didn’t sufficiently lower costs.
• Non-metallic alternatives also proved impractical.
• "Swapping in a cheaper metal like steel would still cost more than $0.01." — Waylon Wong [07:43]

5. The Cultural and Artistic Afterlife of Pennies

• Artist Robert Wexler:

  • Has spent over 20 years making penny-based art, including a "100,000 Penny Cube," completed after seven years.
  • "I was worried that the penny would be canceled and removed from currency before I finished, because if I finished the piece after that, it would be nothing but a memorial to the penny. And I didn't like that idea because for me, it has a lot more to say." — Robert Wexler [09:20]
  • He describes the transformation of penny surfaces: "...they do turn blue and green, but they also turn like these spectacular oranges and reds or these like really lovely waxy blacks. And it's so unique and special and just it's like a little world." — Robert Wexler [10:20]
  • Anecdotes about the practical difficulties of sourcing large quantities of pennies from banks [09:56].

• Museum Culture:

  • Lincoln Library and Museum volunteers hide pennies for kids to find, tying Lincoln's image to a sense of discovery and national identity.
  • "So it's really cute seeing kids like 3 and 4 year olds running around the plaza looking for the penny to find it." — Christina Shutt [11:12]

6. What Happens Next? (and the Nickel’s Fate)

• Pennies will linger in art, bank deposits, and museum experiments.
• Gift shops, like the one at the Lincoln Museum, are already refusing pennies.
• "How about nickels? I hear these lose even more money now than the penny did. … last year it cost the mint close to 14 cents to produce a nickel. That's more than double its face value. So I don't know, maybe we'll do a nickel obit next year." — Waylon Wong [11:38–11:43]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Penny Humor:
  • "I would give you a penny for your thoughts. Except that pennies are worth 4 cents so you're getting a bonus." — Ed Moy [04:53]
• Congress’ Priorities:
  • "A $80 million loss. It's a rounding error of a rounding error in the federal government." — Ed Moy [07:24]
• Artistic Vision:
  • "They live in muck and they're exposed to unspeakable filth. But… they do turn blue and green, but also spectacular oranges and reds..." — Robert Wexler [10:20]
• Nostalgic Magic:
  • "His grandfather would pretend to pull a penny out of his ear. He kept those coins in an orange Tupperware container because they felt magical to him." — Waylon Wong [09:36]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:06] – Introduction to the penny’s cultural reach (including Mars!)
• [03:16] – The last penny minted; scale of remaining pennies
• [04:41] – Interview with former US Mint Director Ed Moy
• [06:37] – Rising production costs; Congressional response
• [09:07] – Robert Wexler discusses his penny art project
• [10:47] – Where do old pennies go? (art, coin jars, museums)
• [11:38] – The nickel’s even-worse cost problem

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Structure & Tone

The episode blends playful banter and gentle humor with surprisingly heartfelt reminiscences and sober economics. Listeners leave with a sense that even an “innocent” coin like the penny is tied to big themes: national history, culture, and the hidden math behind government decisions.

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For Further Listening

Though the penny’s days are over, its story embodies the intertwining of policy, memory, and everyday life. For those interested in more on the economics of currency, follow NPR’s The Indicator.

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Transcript

[A]

This message comes from BetterHelp. The holidays bring traditions and joy, but they can be tough, too. Therapy helps you care for yourself so you can truly show up for what matters most. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off. Hey, everyone, just a word before today's episode 2025 is almost over. And at NPR and our local stations, we are excited to begin a new year. This year was tough, the loss of federal funding for public media, attacks on the free press. But despite it all, we are not shying away from our jobs, from exercising the critical right to editorial independence guaranteed by the First Amendment. With your support at npr, we will continue our work without fear or favor, and we will continue to produce a show that introduces you to new discoveries, everyday mysteries and explains the science behind the headlines. If you're already an NPR supporter, thank you. We want you to know how important your support is right now. And if you're not a supporter, please become one today before the end of the year, at least. @plus.NPR.org Sign up to unlock a bunch of perks like bonus episodes and more from across NPR's podcast. Plus, you get to feel good about supporting public media while you listen. So end the year on a high note and invest in a public service that matters to you. Visit plus.NPR.org today at. Thank you. You're listening to Short Wave from NPR. Hey, Shortwavers, Emily Kwong here. Tis the season of giving, and we are giving you a little extra something to listen to today, an episode from our podcast cousins, NPR's economics show, the Indicator. Now, this piece you're about to hear is all about the penny. Why this innocent piece of currency may soon be a thing of the past. This episode's got a little science. It's got a little math, it's got fun penny facts. We think you'll like it. And we'll be back with our regular show tomorrow. In the meantime, give the indicator a follow. There's a link in our episode notes. Okay, here are Waylon Wong and Darian Woods.

[B]

I'm Darian Woods.

[C]

And I'm Waylon Wong. Pennies are everywhere. They're between our couch cushions and on the floor of our cars. They're in fountains and junk drawers. And there's even a penny on Mars.

[D]

If there is like other life out there, that's the thing, maybe, that they would find about the United States.

[C]

Christina Shutt is the executive director of the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum in Springfield, Illinois. And if some alien were to pick up that penny on Mars, it would be holding an artifact from 1909. That's the year that the penny's design was changed to put Abraham Lincoln on it. And fun fact, he was the first American president to be put on a circulating coin.

[D]

If the one thing that you know, some other life form knows about us is Abraham Lincoln, like, that's a pretty good representation of what's the best of us, right? And so, I don't know, that's kind.

[C]

Of cool to me.

[B]

So the penny, with its image of Lincoln has made it all the way to outer space. But it has also reached a different kind of final frontier. Last month, the US government minted the very last penny.

[C]

There are still around 300 billion pennies in circulation. That's almost nine bucks for every person in the U.S. but the coin's 232 year run is coming to an end. On today's show, we trace the pennies long decline and pay tribute to this humble bit of American currency.

[E]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it. This message comes from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. With nearly 2,000 clinical trials underway at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer center, the next breakthrough in cancer research is just around the corner. Like a recent clinical trial where 100% of participants achieved complete remission from rectal cancer, that outcome is now inspiring new trials that could change the standard of care for other types of cancer. Give the gift of hope this holiday [e-mail] holidaymatch and your gift will be tripled.

[A]

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[B]

We wanted to talk to somebody who was there when the penny first started to become a problem. So we called up Ed Moy and when we got him on the line, he didn't waste any time.

[C]

It is really nice to meet you and get you on the phone so.

[F]

I would give you a penny for your thoughts. Except that pennies are worth 4 cents so you're getting a bonus.

[C]

You have the penny jokes coming already and I love it.

[B]

Ed served as the director of the US Mint from 2006 to 2011. The Mint is the government office in charge of making money. Literally. It produces and circulates currency.

[C]

Ed's interest in coins started way before he joined the government. His immigrant parents ran a Chinese restaurant when he was growing up, and he started manning the cash register at age 10.

[F]

When I was bored, I would paw through the change drawer and, and pick out coins that looked all silver or just unusual designs. And that began kind of a lifelong interest in the coin area. And this is the story about America. Little did I know that fast forward 40 years later, I would become director of the United States Mint.

[B]

The job of the Mint is to make enough circulating coins to meet demand within the economy. And Ed says the office tries to do this at no cost to the taxpayers. And that means it shouldn't cost more to make a coin than the face value of that coin.

[C]

The best case scenario is when a coin's face value is more than the production cost, then the government makes a profit. There's even a special term for that seigniorage. This money goes to the Treasury's general fund to help pay down the national debt.

[B]

In 2006, Ed's first year on the job, the US Mint was making money on dimes, quarters, and dollar coins. But it was losing money on nickels and pennies. In fact, 2006 was the first year that the cost of making a penny went above $0.01. Ed remembers it going to 1.4 cents.

[F]

This is the run up toward the financial crisis. And the economy was still kind of hot in 2006. So base metals started increasing in price. And all of a sudden, this penny that was made of 97.5% zinc, 2.5% copper started creeping up above one penny to make. So I started consulting with Congress saying costs are going up.

[C]

Congress has the constitutional authority to regulate currency. And Ed remembers that lawmakers did not see the increasing cost of penny production as an urgent problem. Producing coins was still profitable overall, and losses from the penny then and now were super small compared with the federal budget.

[F]

You know, a $80 million loss. It's a rounding error of a rounding error in the federal government.

[B]

Yeah. So the federal budget is around $7 trillion. So 80 million out of 7 trillion, that's like $0.01. One penny out of $875.

[C]

Still, Congress gave Ed the green light to study cheaper ways to make the penny. And he considered some alternatives, but they didn't pan out. Swapping in a cheaper metal like steel would still cost more than $0.01. And switching to non metallic materials was also impractical.

[B]

Ed left the Mint in 2011. He didn't get to finish that study on what to do with the penny. And by then, the cost of making it had gone from around 1.4 cents to 2.4 cents. Demand for pennies was also declining as people used less cash.

[F]

That was up to my successor to deliver that report to Congress. And every other successor has had to deal with this problem.

[B]

By last month, when the Mint announced it was producing the last penny, the cost to make the coin was 3.7 cents. Ed says he understands why the government finally made the call.

[F]

It wasn't a surprise that eventually someone's going to have to make that decision. We have enough pennies. It's time to end the production of pennies.

[C]

A lot of people are totally over the penny. They throw them away or just let them sit around in jars.

[E]

They.

[C]

But we did find someone who really treasures this little guy.

[G]

My name is Robert Wexler, and I'm an artist. And for more than two decades now, I've been focusing on the US penny. And I just finished 100,000 Penny Cube.

[C]

Robert cut notches into 100,000 pennies. Then he slid them together to form a 3D lattice. The sculpture took him seven years to finish, and it's on display at Wellesley College in Massachusetts.

[G]

I was worried that the penny would be canceled and removed from currency before I finished, because if I finished the piece after that, it would be nothing but a memorial to the penny. And I didn't like that idea because for me, it has a lot more to say.

[C]

This coin has fascinated Robert ever since he was a kid and his grandfather would pretend to pull a penny out of his ear. He kept those coins in an orange Tupperware container because they felt magical to him.

[B]

For his art, Robert needs a lot more than Tupperware containers of pennies. So he orders them in bulk from his bank.

[G]

They really don't like doing it because they're heavy and they take up space in the vault, and they insist that you pick them up immediately, but they can't tell you when they're going to arrive because they don't want you to know when their bank truck is going to be there, because for security reasons.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Because what if you pulled off a heist?

[E]

Exactly.

[C]

You just have to be on call when the pennies arrive.

[B]

The hassle is worth it. For Robert, though, he still finds wonder in the penny.

[G]

There are these, like, lowly gutter things. You know, they live in muck and they're exposed to unspeakable filth. But that has this incredible effect in that they. They do turn blue and green, but they also turn like these spectacular oranges and reds or these like really lovely waxy blacks. And it's so unique and special and just it's like a little world.

[C]

So what's to become of all the pennies still circulating in the world? Well, Robert will take them to use in his art. Former US Mint director Ed Moy saves them in a coin jar until he has enough to deposit at the bank.

[B]

And back at the Lincoln Museum in Illinois, volunteers set out pennies for school children to find on the ground. Executive director Christina Shutt says they've given away more than 200,000 pennies in the last couple of decades.

[D]

So it's really cute seeing kids like 3 and 4 year olds running around the plaza looking for the penny to find it. And it gives the volunteers great delight and joy because then they get an opportunity to talk about how Lincoln really is everywhere.

[C]

He's coming out of your ear.

[B]

That will explain the waxy patina that Robert's finding.

[C]

The black wax.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Unspeakable filth. Darian. You know what, though? The gift shop at the Lincoln Museum no longer accepts pennies.

[B]

How about nickels? I hear these lose even more money now than the penny did.

[C]

Yeah, last year it cost the mint close to 14 cents to produce a nickel. That's more than double its face value. So I don't know, maybe we'll do a nickel obit next year.

[B]

Dropping like flyers.

[C]

This episode was produced by Julia Ritchie with engineering by Sophie McArthur. It was fact checked by Corey Bridges. Kate Kincannon is the show's editor, and the indicator is a production of N Foreign.

[E]

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