Podcast Summary: Short Wave

Episode: This is your brain on pleasure (even the guilty kind)
Date: March 16, 2026
Hosts: Emily Kwong, with producer Rachel Carlson

Episode Overview

In this episode, the Short Wave team dives into the science of pleasure—how we experience it, why sometimes we feel guilty about things that bring us joy, and what’s happening in our brains when we indulge in simple (or “guilty”) pleasures. With help from neuroscientists and pleasure activists, the episode explores the roles of “wanting” and “liking,” how they interact, and why acknowledging pleasure is important for meaningful, healthy lives. The episode balances humor and scientific insight while answering: What is pleasure, where does guilt fit in, and how can we relate to pleasure in a healthier way?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Guilty” in Guilty Pleasures

• Rachel’s BookTok Confession (00:48 - 01:21)
  Producer Rachel Carlson shares her recent deep-dive into spicy book genres, specifically romance fantasy novels with dragons, describing the immense but embarrassing joy they brought her. This embarrassment prompts the question: Why do we feel bad for enjoying things that bring us happiness?

• Cultural Attitudes Toward Pleasure
  Rachel reaches out to Dr. Sami Schalk, a pleasure activist, who suggests that guilt about pleasure is widespread and has social roots:

  “People just don’t take seriously folks who are too open and joyful. I think there’s an association with childhood, too, of it being childlike to really unabashedly love something. And as adults, we’re supposed to have, like, restraint within our emotions, and that includes our joy.” — Sami Schalk (01:51)

The Neuroscience of Pleasure

• Pleasure’s Evolutionary Role (02:35 - 03:10)
  Dr. Morten Kringelbach, director of Oxford’s Center for Eudaimonia, highlights that pleasure is essential for survival—not just for the individual (e.g., food) but for the species (e.g., sex):

  “We need to be able not just to survive for ourselves, but also survive as a species...” — Morten Kringelbach (02:56)

• The Pleasure Cycle: Wanting, Liking, Learning (04:21 - 06:45)

  • Pleasure is not a single event but a cycle:
    • Wanting: Motivation/anticipation (e.g., craving a morning coffee)
    • Liking: Actual enjoyment (e.g., the taste of coffee)
    • Learning: Associating experience with pleasure for future reference

• Brain Systems for ‘Wanting’ vs ‘Liking’
  Dr. Kent Berridge (University of Michigan) explains that neuroscientists now recognize distinct brain circuits for wanting and liking:

  “I thought that there was one unitary system in the brain that mediated both wanting and liking for rewards... But it turns out they are separate parts.” — Kent Berridge (04:41)

  • Wanting: Related to dopamine and the brain’s reward system (e.g., nucleus accumbens, ventral striatum)
  • Liking: Linked to “hedonic hotspots”—small, distinct brain regions

    “We call them hedonic hotspots.” — Morten Kringelbach (08:40)

• Memorable Example (05:23 - 06:41)
  Rachel uses coffee cravings to illustrate “wanting,” highlighting how much effort we’ll exert for pleasure, and how dopamine in the brain guides motivation—not pleasure itself.

When Wanting and Liking Get Out of Sync

• Dopamine’s Real Role (07:31 - 07:55)

  “Dopamine... doesn’t actually generate pleasure the way we once thought it did. It does, however, generate intense wants and urges for these pleasures in life.” — Kent Berridge

• Addiction & Everyday Habits (08:50 - 09:45)
  Kent describes how addiction can “trap” the brain in wanting mode, even without enjoyment—a pattern observable in daily life (e.g., doomscrolling social media):

  “We can all have wants triggered by rewards... and we want to engage with them even if we don’t even like them.” — Kent Berridge (09:31)

The Science (and Paradox) of Guilty Pleasures

• Where Guilt Comes From (10:05 - 10:36)

  • Guilt often arises from social contexts, engaging brain regions responsible for higher-order processing and self-consciousness.

  “They engage these kind of higher social networks ... that have the power to make us change how we are running through that pleasure cycle.” — Morten Kringelbach (10:22)

• Guilt Can Intensify Pleasure (11:03 - 11:48)

  • Behavioral scientist Kelly Goldsmith’s experiments found that subtly priming people with guilt (e.g., through word puzzles) made them enjoy chocolates and other treats even more.

  “And you can probably guess which group said they liked the candy more.”
  “The ones thinking about guilt.” (11:23)

• Quotes about Contradictions & Complexity

  “Humans are fascinating. We’re just like a conundrum of contradictions.” — Emily Kwong (11:52)
  “Our lives are so constrained... when you just get a chance to let go ... it can actually feel pretty excellent.” — Kelly Goldsmith (12:13)

Cultivating a Healthy Relationship to Pleasure

• Lean Into (Meaningful) Joy (12:38 - 13:14)
  The experts recommend not moderation or willpower, but variation and community:

  “It’s not really about moderation... it’s about realizing there are many different pleasures out there. And most importantly, you shouldn’t be somebody who just does it for themselves. You should share the love.” — Morten Kringelbach (12:57)

• Pleasure and Social Connection

  • Sami Schalk warns against “the pleasure police in your head”—the internalized voice stifling joy due to social judgment:

    “Just because somebody else doesn’t like something doesn’t mean it’s not good.” — Sami Schalk (13:29)

• Living in the In-Between

  • Emily and Rachel reflect on embracing the complexity of pleasure, where nothing is all good or bad:

    “We really exist kind of in these in between spaces and so does our pleasure.” — Rachel (13:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I felt really embarrassed about how much joy [dragon romance novels] were bringing me. It’s kind of like I didn’t even want to be enjoying them.” — Rachel Carlson (01:04)
• “People just don’t take seriously folks who are too open and joyful... as adults, we’re supposed to have, like, restraint within our emotions, and that includes our joy.” — Sami Schalk (01:51)
• “Dopamine... doesn’t actually generate pleasure the way we once thought it did. It does, however, generate intense wants and urges for these pleasures in life.” — Kent Berridge (07:43)
• “Nothing has to be entirely bad, nothing has to be entirely good. We really exist kind of in these in between spaces and so does our pleasure.” — Rachel Carlson (13:46)
• “You are a queen and I hope you can enjoy those books without shame.” — Emily Kwong, to Rachel (13:56)

Key Timestamps

• 00:48 - 01:21: Rachel’s guilty pleasure and self-judgment
• 01:51 - 02:11: Sami Schalk on social attitudes toward open joy
• 02:56 - 03:10: Morten Kringelbach on pleasure and species survival
• 04:41: Kent Berridge on splitting “wanting” and “liking”
• 05:23 - 06:41: Coffee craving as an example of the pleasure cycle
• 07:43 - 07:55: Dopamine’s role in wanting, not liking
• 09:31 - 09:45: Wanting without liking, social media parallels
• 10:22: Guilt and higher-order social brain processes
• 11:23: Experiments: guilt increasing enjoyment
• 12:57: Variation, not moderation, in the pursuit of pleasure
• 13:29: Addressing the “pleasure police” in our heads
• 13:46: The nuance of pleasure—nothing is wholly good or bad

Conclusion

This episode unpacks the science behind why we enjoy “guilty pleasures” and why guilt often attaches itself to joy. The hosts and their expert guests reveal that pleasure is not only multifaceted in the brain but also deeply influenced by cultural and social expectations. The message: embrace joy in all its messy, complex forms, share it with others, and don’t let guilt—or the “pleasure police”—diminish what brings you happiness.