What drives animals to your yard? It's complicated

Summary

Podcast Summary

Short Wave (NPR)

Episode Title: What drives animals to your yard? It's complicated
Date: January 27, 2026
Hosts: Emily Kwong & Hannah Chin

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Overview

This episode of Short Wave investigates why people are noticing an uptick in frogs and lizards in their yards, focusing on a listener’s question from Lawrenceville, Georgia. Hosts Emily Kwong and producer Hannah Chin go on a "nature quest" to answer: What drives animals to your yard, and what can (or should) you do about it? With humor, curiosity, and local experts, they unpack the science behind urban wildlife, how humans shape animal habitats, and what options homeowners have when their gardens become unexpectedly rich in visitors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener's Dilemma: Too Many Amphibians ([00:59]–[02:15])

• Listener Shabnam Khan reports a recent explosion of frogs and lizards in her Atlanta-area garden, making her uneasy enough to avoid gardening.
  • “Every time I'm gardening, every time I'm working in the yard, I get scared by lizards and frogs. Oh, no… The quantity boggles my mind.” – Shabnam ([01:25]–[02:11])

2. Identifying the Creatures ([04:02]–[04:59])

• Shabnam sends photos—her visitors are common, native species: green anoles, five-lined skinks, and green tree frogs, confirmed by herpetologist Daniel Sullenberger (Georgia Dept. of Natural Resources).
  • Emily: “So this one, it's like a peacock lizard. It has this pink throat sack…”
  • Sullenberger: “The top animal is the green anole. That's one of our most common lizards… Really common in gardens and home areas.” ([04:27]–[04:45])

3. Why Are There So Many? Habitat and Human Influence ([05:19]–[06:34])

• Adaptable species thrive in suburban and urban yards, especially if those yards are hospitable (native plants, water features, infrequent mowing).
  • Sullenberger: “There are things that you can do in your yard, intentionally or unintentionally, that tend to make better wildlife habitat.” ([05:52])
  • Mara Dudley (Oglethorpe University): “What species might actually be found in your listener's area is going to depend a lot on the habitats that are present. And primarily, is your listener within about 100 yards of a body of water…” ([06:34])

4. What Can You Do—Reduce or Accept Wildlife? ([07:07]–[09:11])

• Two main strategies:
  • Eradication Approach: Make the yard inhospitable by frequent mowing, removing vegetation and hiding places.
    • Sullenberger: “Just places for animals to hide. These are all terrible ideas in my opinion. But if you want to see less wildlife…have nothing but concrete and sod and you’ll see a lot less stuff.” ([07:18]–[07:55])
    • Trade-off: Less wildlife also means fewer birds and pollinators. ([08:00])
  • Sharing is Caring Approach: Create a sanctuary—leave wild areas for frogs and lizards away from human activity.
    • Dudley: “They probably don't want to see her as much as she does not want to see them… So build a spot for them to do that.” ([08:25]–[09:00])
    • Amphibians and reptiles help gardeners by eating pests.
      • Dudley: “…having snakes or frogs in her garden because they are some of the biggest consumers of insects and other pests like mice and rats…” ([09:11])

5. The Big Picture: Urbanization and Shifting Wildlife ([10:07]–[12:17])

• Urban development pushes animals into remaining green spaces, including yards (seen in Atlanta, Florida, Yellowstone, etc.).
  • Dudley: “What was potentially suitable habitat for a lot of amphibians and reptiles now is no longer suitable. And those species have to move…”
• Fragmentation and chemical use (pesticides), as well as domestic cats, have significant negative impacts:
  • “It was estimated that up to 92 million frogs were killed per year by cats in Australia… It's in the millions. That's just frogs.” – Dudley ([11:47])
• Humans can help wildlife by planting native plants, avoiding pesticides, keeping cats indoors, and supporting wetlands.
  • Emily: “There is so much we can do to help amphibians in our neighborhoods.” ([12:40])

6. Are There Actually More Frogs and Lizards? Lack of Data ([12:46]–[13:59])

• No long-term studies track amphibian/reptile populations in metro Atlanta—so increased sightings may not mean higher numbers.
  • Community science is helping fill this gap: Metro Atlanta Amphibian Monitoring Program (MAMP) trains locals to observe and record species.
    • Dudley: “The community science program is called the Metro Atlanta Amphibian Monitoring Program, which we like to refer to as MAMP because that's quite a mouthful.” ([13:20])
  • Anyone can join, not just scientists ([13:31]); info in show notes.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On changing the yard:
  • Sullenberger (07:18): “These are all terrible ideas in my opinion. But if you want to see less wildlife around your home, have nothing but concrete and sod and you'll see a lot less stuff.”
• On animals' perspective:
  • Dudley (08:25): “They probably don't want to see her as much as she does not want to see them.”
• On community involvement:
  • Dudley (13:20): “The community science program is called the Metro Atlanta Amphibian Monitoring Program, which we like to refer to as MAMP because that's quite a mouthful.”
• On cats and amphibians:
  • Dudley (11:47): “It was estimated that up to 92 million frogs were killed per year by cats in Australia… It's in the millions. That's just frogs.”

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [01:25] Shabnam describes her newfound fear of gardening due to amphibians
• [04:27] Daniel Sullenberger identifies lizards and frogs from listener photos
• [05:52] Sullenberger explains role of human landscaping in attracting wildlife
• [07:18] Eradication approach to removing animals from yards
• [08:25] Sharing-the-garden approach and its ecological benefits
• [10:07] Mara Dudley on urbanization's impact on local wildlife
• [11:47] Domestic cats’ toll on amphibian populations
• [13:20] Community science: Metro Atlanta Amphibian Monitoring Program

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Conclusion

The episode unpacks the complexity behind why more animals are being spotted in urban and suburban yards, revealing that what seems like a critter "invasion" is often a result of human landscaping choices and broader development trends. Listeners are encouraged to shift perspective: with a little planning, we can create space both for ourselves and native wildlife. And, with the help of community science, everyone can contribute to understanding and preserving the creatures that share our gardens.

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Transcript

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[Emily Kwong]

You're listening to shortwave from npr. Hey, everyone. Emily Kwong here with producer Hannah Chin.

[Hannah Chin]

Hey. Hey, Emily. Okay, so I've been looking into a question from one of our listeners in Lawrenceville, Georgia, which is a suburb about 30 miles outside downtown Atlanta.

[Emily Kwong]

It's very pretty here in Atlanta, lots of hills and very green. When you're landing at the airport, you can see it's just a green canopy all over the city.

[Hannah Chin]

So this is Shabnam Khan. She's lived in and around the area since 1986, and clearly she really loves the place she lives, partly because it's so lush.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah, Atlanta is beautiful. It's also subtropical, so I imagine there's lots of plants that thrive there.

[Hannah Chin]

Exactly. Which is great for Shabnam because she loves to garden. But there's one problem with her garden, Emily, a problem that's been visiting pretty regularly that started small, a lizard here and there, and it's just not going away.

[Emily Kwong]

I do gardening quite a bit and now last two or three or four years, every time I'm gardening, every time I'm working in the yard, I get scared by lizards and frogs. Oh, no. And there are many of them and lots of different varieties, like stripes and like beautiful colors, but I'm still scared of them.

[Hannah Chin]

Shapnam told me she doesn't even want to be in her garden anymore, she's so stressed out by this spike in garden visitors. And she says it's not uncommon for her to hear an army of frogs croaking in her neighborhood at night or to find multiple brightly colored lizards sunning on the grass. And now she's like, where did all of these come from?

[Emily Kwong]

It's just the quantity boggles my mind.

[Hannah Chin]

Just the population seems to have exploded.

[Emily Kwong]

Today on the show, we are going on a lizard hunt.

[Hannah Chin]

We're talking to local experts about why so many lizards and frogs are showing themselves now and whether there's a way to manage Shabnam's clammy, scaly little problem.

[Emily Kwong]

You are listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.

[Mara Dudley]

Foreign.

[Emily Kwong]

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[Emily Kwong]

We are on a nature quest. This is our monthly segment bringing you a question from a fellow shortwaver who's paying attention to their local environment and how it's changing.

[Hannah Chin]

And this month, Emily, you and I are investigating the world of herpetology. Frogs, snakes, lizards, salamanders, to help out our listener, Shabnam in Georgia.

[Emily Kwong]

I love it.

[Hannah Chin]

Okay, so first things first. To start this nature quest, I needed to know what specific frogs and lizards Shabnam was seeing in her yard. Naturally, There are around 180 reptiles and amphibians native to Georgia. So I kind of needed to narrow it down, so I asked her to send me some pictures. Emily, I'm sending them to you right now.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay.

[Hannah Chin]

Do you want to describe these little creatures for our listeners?

[Emily Kwong]

So this one, it's like a peacock lizard. It has this pink throat sack hanging from his little lizard head.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

Yeah. The top animal is the green anole. That's one of our most common lizards found pretty much statewide. Really common in gardens and home areas.

[Emily Kwong]

Then I'm looking at. Whoo, I really like this. It's a salamander with like an electric blue tail.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

It is one of our skinks, probably a five line skink, but there's a couple other species that look similar. Green tree frog. That's.

[Hannah Chin]

So this is Daniel Sullenberger, and he's a herpetologist and senior wildlife biologist with the Georgia Department of Natural Resources.

[Emily Kwong]

He identified these animals very quickly. I guess this is what he does for a living. So. But could he tell you anything else about them or why they might be populating Shabnam's yard?

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, he did.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

The things that are using her yard in Lawrenceville are very adaptable, common things, things that can tolerate a wide range of conditions. They're fine living neighborhoods and homes. They can Live under, you know, the deck on your porch or clump of cattails next to a retention pond.

[Hannah Chin]

Basically everywhere.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay, so these are not invasive lizards and frogs?

[Hannah Chin]

It appears not, no. They're just super common.

[Emily Kwong]

But Shabnam also said she's seen increasingly more of these critters. So did Daniel tell you why that might be?

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, I asked him that too.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

You know, I guess I would ask her, has anything changed in your neighborhood or your yard in that period of time? You know, there are things that you can do in your yard, intentionally or unintentionally, that tend to make better wildlife habitat.

[Hannah Chin]

Things like not mowing your grass as often or planting more native plants. Maybe putting in a water feature like a fountain or a pond.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

You know, like if you put in a goldfish pond in metro Atlanta, you're going to get tree frogs and stuff using it.

[Emily Kwong]

Oh, duh.

[Mara Dudley]

Right.

[Emily Kwong]

Because amphibians love water.

[Hannah Chin]

Right. And other local experts told me this too, like Mara Dudley. She's a biology professor at Oglethorpe University and she's also the urban ecologist for the Amphibian foundation in Atlanta.

[Mara Dudley]

What species might actually be found in your listener's area is going to depend a lot on the habitats that are present. And primarily is your listener within about 100 yards of a body of water is going to make a big difference in terms of what species they might find.

[Emily Kwong]

So even a pool a block away could be contributing to what Shopnam is seeing in her yard.

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, totally. It's like the length of a football field.

[Emily Kwong]

So what can she do then to avoid seeing more lizards and frogs in her garden?

[Hannah Chin]

Daniel and Meyer told me there's two different ways to kind of go about it. There's the full eradication approach, basically making your yard as inhospitable as possible to any animal. Uh huh.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

So things like cutting your grass very frequently, keeping it very short and neat. If you have flower beds around your home, either don't have those, or keep the shrubs and things trimmed so there's not layers of vegetation all the way to the ground. Make sure you don't have any rock piles, piles of limbs, piles of leaves, things like that. Just places for animals to hide. These are all terrible ideas in my opinion. But if you want to see less wildlife around your home, have nothing but concrete and soda and you'll see a lot less stuff.

[Emily Kwong]

Yeah.

[Hannah Chin]

Which Daniel does say comes with trade offs.

[Daniel Sullenberger]

Now keep in mind, when you're creating or destroying wildlife habitat around your home, it's hard to control what you're going to See, so, for instance, if she really likes the birds, well, this is going to maybe decrease the amount or diversity of birds you see, too.

[Emily Kwong]

So that's the eradication approach.

[Hannah Chin]

So that's the eradication approach. And then there's the sharing is caring approach.

[Mara Dudley]

I'll say this to your listener. They probably don't want to see her as much as she does not want to see them. Right. Because any large organism is going to appear to be a predator to any kind of amphibian or reptile in the area.

[Hannah Chin]

Because, Emily, these reptiles and the amphibians, they want to hide. So Mara suggested build a spot for them to do that. Rather than tearing rocks and native plants out completely, just put them in a separate part of a garden, the part that maybe Shabdam doesn't garden in.

[Emily Kwong]

So create like a little amphibian sanctuary in a dedicated spot of the garden.

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, exactly. And Mara says this gentler approach, it has benefits for people, too.

[Mara Dudley]

If your listener loves to garden, then she is probably benefiting significantly from having snakes or frogs in her garden because they are some of the biggest consumers of insects and other pests like mice and rats and chipmunks that might be consuming things in her garden.

[Emily Kwong]

I feel like this is a whole perspective shift on amphibians in Atlanta from these herpetologists. They're like, that may not be so bad.

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Emily Kwong]

Of course, I imagine this is happening in other places, not just Atlanta, where someone is noticing their garden being frequented by more and different animals. Are there larger trends in urban wildlife? Like, can we link what's happening in Shabnam's yard to a, like, bigger ecological rise and fall in urban lizards and frogs?

[Hannah Chin]

Mara told me to some extent, yes, the shift in wildlife that we're seeing goes beyond the greater Atlanta area. It's happening in all these places that are urbanizing. Because what we gain in real estate, animals lose in habitat. Like in south Florida where developers continue to push the Everglades boundary, or subdivisions and ranches in the greater Yellowstone area.

[Mara Dudley]

If you move into a given area and there's a low amount of development around you, and over time the demand for housing increases. What that means is all of these pockets that are natural areas tend to be then taken up and developed. And what that means is that what was potentially suitable habitat for a lot of amphibians and reptiles now is no longer suitable. And those species have to move. Right.

[Emily Kwong]

Because if they lose their habitat, then they got to go somewhere. And that somewhere could be places that people are.

[Hannah Chin]

Yeah. And Mara said this is just One of a few ways that human development can affect local amphibians.

[Mara Dudley]

Another way is fragmentation, particularly when it comes to amphibians. These species that live in terrestrial ecosystems most of the year and breed in freshwater ecosystems. If there's now a road that is going through that connection in between, that puts a lot of species at greater risk for mortality.

[Hannah Chin]

Mara also mentioned human use of chemicals like pesticides that are really bad for amphibians and reptiles. Yeah, and then there's the issue of the predators that humans bring with us, like outdoor cats. Mara likes to cite a 2020 study about this.

[Mara Dudley]

It was estimated that up to 92 million frogs were killed per year by cats in Australia. And there have been some similar studies and kind of numbers that are coming out for the United States as well. It's in the millions. That's just frogs.

[Emily Kwong]

Oh, dear.

[Hannah Chin]

That number doesn't count. Snakes, salamanders, lizards, other animals that are also killed by cats.

[Emily Kwong]

Honestly, this doesn't surprise me. Cats are. They're adorable. I have one. And they're meant to kill.

[Hannah Chin]

They are. But the good thing is, Emily, these things can work in reverse as well. Right. So just as human development can hurt reptiles and amphibians, it's also pretty easy for humans to help them, like planting native plants and removing invasives or avoiding pesticide use. Keeping our cats inside and then supporting temporary wetlands like ponds and marshes wherever they crop up near us.

[Emily Kwong]

So what I'm hearing from you, Hannah, is there is so much we can do to help amphibians in our neighborhoods.

[Hannah Chin]

Yes, totally. And there's actually one more aspect of Shemnam's question that I want to get into, Emily. This idea that she's noticing more lizards and frogs because Mara and Daniel told me just because she's seeing them more often doesn't necessarily mean there's a population increase, that there's more of them.

[Emily Kwong]

Okay, but how come we don't know?

[Hannah Chin]

Because there's still a big gap in local scientists data. And that's because long term studies monitoring the populations of these species in metro Atlanta really just don't exist. So Mara is trying to change that through community science.

[Mara Dudley]

So the community science program is called the Metro Atlanta Amphibian Monitoring Program, which we like to refer to as MAMP because that's quite a mouthful.

[Hannah Chin]

And Emily, anyone in the metro Atlanta area can apply to be a community scientist in this MAMP program. Mara and her colleagues will train them to identify each species in the field and document their findings. And then volunteers have to take a series of quizzes to basically show that they retained all that information.

[Emily Kwong]

This is like school.

[Hannah Chin]

I mean, Emily, you love school.

[Emily Kwong]

I do is true.

[Hannah Chin]

Anyway, there's an online signup form for trainings and program news. We'll link to it in the show notes.

[Emily Kwong]

And if you like, Hannah and I are not in the metro Atlanta area but still want to learn how to identify and document local frogs. Consider seeing if you have an active local Frog Watch chapter. Search your city or state and Frog Watch usa. Thank you so much for guiding us through this month's Hoppy Hippity Nature Quest. Hannah.

[Hannah Chin]

Anytime, Emily.

[Emily Kwong]

Shortwavers if you want to get in on this Nature Quest series, it's so easy. Look around your environment. Is anything changing or do you have an environmental question you want us to investigate? Well, record a memo and email it to [e-mail] and we may look into it for a future episode. This episode was Produced by Burleigh McCoy with help from Rachel Carlson. It was edited by Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones Check the facts. The audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Sam Poulston composed and produced our Nature Quest theme music. If you like this episode, follow us on the NPR app or wherever else you get your podcasts. I'm Emily Kwong.

[Hannah Chin]

And I'm Hannah Chan.

[Emily Kwong]

Thank you for listening to Short Wave from npr.

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[Emily Kwong]

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