Why Gene-Edited Babies May Be Closer Than Ever

Summary

Short Wave: Why Gene-Edited Babies May Be Closer Than Ever

Host: Regina Barber
Guest: Rob Stein
Release Date: August 12, 2025
Source: NPR’s Short Wave

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Introduction

In the August 12, 2025 episode of NPR's Short Wave, hosts Emily Kwong and Regina Barber delve into the controversial and rapidly evolving field of gene editing, specifically focusing on the prospect of gene-edited babies. This episode examines the scientific advancements, ethical dilemmas, and societal implications surrounding the use of CRISPR and other gene-editing technologies in human reproduction.

The First Gene-Edited Babies

Regina Barber opens the discussion by recounting a pivotal event: a year before the COVID-19 pandemic, a Chinese scientist made headlines by announcing the birth of the world's first gene-edited babies, twin girls named Lulu and Lala. These twins were brought into the world using the CRISPR gene-editing technique, which, at the time, was both groundbreaking and highly controversial.

“A year before the pandemic hit, a scientist in China made a shocking revelation to the world. He had secretly engineered the birth of the first gene edited babies,” Regina Barber states ([00:18]).

Rob Stein, a colleague and expert on the subject, elaborates on the fallout from this announcement. The scientific community widely condemned the act as reckless and unethical, leading to the imprisonment of the scientist, He Zheng Kui, for three years due to his violation of medical regulations.

Rebooting the Gene-Editing Movement

In recent weeks, Short Wave brings attention to a resurgence in the pursuit of gene-edited babies. Rob Stein reports that efforts to create genetically modified children are gaining momentum, driven by a coalition of scientists, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, and pronatalists—individuals concerned about declining birth rates threatening humanity's future.

“The quest to produce gene edited children appears to be getting a reboot,” Stein explains ([02:05]).

This renewed interest involves diverse players, including venture capitalists and cryptocurrency billionaires, who are either investing in or founding startups dedicated to advancing gene-editing technologies. A notable development is the announcement of a new startup named the "Manhattan Project," founded by Kathy Tai and Ariana Hysoli, aimed at developing safer and more precise gene-editing techniques than CRISPR.

CRISPR and Emerging Gene-Editing Technologies

To provide context, Regina Barber prompts a discussion on CRISPR, a revolutionary gene-editing tool that allows scientists to modify DNA with unprecedented ease. “CRISPR can be kind of messy,” Rob Stein notes ([07:18]), highlighting the challenges associated with its precision and safety.

In response to CRISPR’s limitations, researchers are exploring newer methods like base editing, which promise greater accuracy and fewer off-target effects. Kathy Tai and her team aim to utilize these advanced techniques to eliminate genetic diseases such as cystic fibrosis and Alzheimer’s by editing embryos at the embryonic level ([07:46]).

Ethical and Societal Implications

The potential to edit human embryos raises significant ethical questions. Regina Barber draws parallels to the film Gattaca, which depicted a dystopian future of "designer babies," indicating public concern over the societal impact of such technologies.

“If this ever really became possible, how would it affect society, our sense of fear, family or relationship with our own genes?” Regina Barber asks ([01:48]).

Rob Stein echoes these concerns, discussing the blurred lines between therapeutic applications and enhancements, such as altering physical features or intelligence. The conversation extends to the formation of a coalition advocating for reproductive choices at the genetic level, driven by the belief that parents should have the freedom to use these technologies to benefit their children.

Scientific and Regulatory Perspectives

The scientific community remains divided on the issue. While some scientists support the potential benefits of gene editing for preventing hereditary diseases and advancing basic biological research, others warn against the ethical pitfalls and the possibility of a new era of eugenics.

“Human heritable germline editing is quite clearly a terrible solution in search of a problem,” remarks Regina Barber ([11:29]), emphasizing the irreversible consequences of mistakes in genetic modifications.

Dr. Paula Amato from Oregon Health and Science University stresses the importance of prioritizing safety and adhering to strict oversight if gene editing research is to move forward. However, current U.S. regulations prohibit the creation of gene-edited babies, and major scientific organizations have called for a ten-year moratorium on such practices.

The Manhattan Project Startup

Kathy Tai’s startup, aptly named the "Manhattan Project," aims to navigate these regulatory and ethical challenges by demonstrating the safety and efficacy of new gene-editing techniques. The project plans to conduct methodical experiments, starting with mice and primates before progressing to human cells and embryos ([14:04]).

Despite the ambitious goals, the initiative faces significant skepticism and opposition from bioethicists who fear a recurrence of eugenic practices under the guise of scientific advancement. Hank Greely, a bioethicist at Stanford, likens the potential misuse of gene editing technologies to dangerous and sinister endeavors, raising alarms about the ethical trajectory of such research.

“We are breaking babies,” Regina Barber highlights a comment made by Hank Greely ([12:12]), underscoring the moral gravity of manipulating human genetics.

Future Outlook and Conclusion

The episode concludes by acknowledging the complex landscape of gene editing, where scientific possibilities collide with ethical constraints and societal fears. While proponents argue for the immense potential benefits of eliminating genetic diseases and enhancing human capabilities, critics caution against the moral and societal repercussions of such profound interventions.

“Some political forces whispering in his ear that have a decidedly pronatalist bent... are interested in these technologies,” Rob Stein notes ([11:36]), indicating the delicate balance between innovation and ethical responsibility.

As Short Wave wraps up, the hosts emphasize the need for ongoing dialogue and careful consideration as humanity stands on the brink of potentially redefining the essence of human reproduction and genetics.

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Notable Quotes:

• “A year before the pandemic hit, a scientist in China made a shocking revelation to the world. He had secretly engineered the birth of the first gene edited babies.” — Regina Barber ([00:18])

• “Would parents have the freedom to use it in all sorts of ways, like physical features?” — Rob Stein ([08:29])

• “Human heritable germline editing is quite clearly a terrible solution in search of a problem.” — Regina Barber ([11:29])

• “We are breaking babies.” — Regina Barber, quoting Hank Greely ([12:12])

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This episode of Short Wave offers a comprehensive exploration of the cutting-edge advancements and the profound ethical questions surrounding the potential creation of gene-edited babies. By featuring expert insights and addressing both the scientific and moral dimensions, Regina Barber and Rob Stein provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of a topic that sits at the intersection of innovation and ethics.

Transcript

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[Regina Barber]

You're listening to shortwave from npr. Hey shortwavers. Regina Barber here. A year before the pandemic hit, a scientist in China made a shocking revelation to the world. He had secretly engineered the birth of the first gene edited babies.

[Rob Stein]

Two beautiful little Chinese girls named Lulu and Lala came crying into the world.

[Regina Barber]

As healthy as any other babies.

[Rob Stein]

A few weeks ago.

[Regina Barber]

The birth of the twins was seen as reckless and unethical by the scientific community because among other things, the CRISPR gene editing technique the scientists used was so new. My colleague Rob Stein is here to tell us about that now infamous announcement of the world's first gene edited babies, known as CRISPR Babies. Hey Rob.

[Rob Stein]

Hey Gina. Yeah, and I've been continuing to follow all this, including when China imprisoned the scientists for three years for violating medical regulations. His name is He Zheng Kui. And I continue to follow this world of gene editing and human reproduction and this stuff. I just find it fascinating. Not only is the science just amazing, it also raises all kinds of provocations, social, legal, moral and ethical issues.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah, absolutely. Like this is very controversial and there's so many questions.

[Rob Stein]

Right. Would it ever be safe? Would it be ethical? Why would someone want to make gene editor babies to prevent diseases or even go further.

[Regina Barber]

Right. Like that movie Gattaca making so called designer babies.

[Rob Stein]

Exactly. And that's just a few of the tough questions. If this ever really became possible, how would it affect society, our sense of fear, family or relationship with her own genes?

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. And you've been investigating a new piece of all this that's unraveled in just the last few weeks, right, Rob?

[Rob Stein]

Absolutely. I've been on the case and I recently discovered that the quest to produce gene edited children appears to be getting a reboot.

[Regina Barber]

Like all the movies we've been seeing today on the show, the new movement to jumpstart the pursuit of genetically modified babies. You're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr. This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more support for NPR.

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[Regina Barber]

Okay, Rob, I have so many questions. First, tell me what prompted a story about this now?

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, so earlier this summer I started hearing about it. Unexpected new development. It involves scientists, Silicon Valley startups, East coast entrepreneurs, and even some so called pronatalists. Those are the folks who fear declining birth rates pose an existential threat to humanity. Turns out they're kind of forming a coalition of forces eager to try to accelerate the creation of more gene edited babies.

[Regina Barber]

A coalition? Wow.

[Rob Stein]

I talked about this with Alta Charo. She's a lawyer and bioethicist from the University of Wisconsin who's actually was sitting next to the Chinese scientist at dinner the night before he made that big announcement in Hong Kong.

[Regina Barber]

Wow.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah. And she's been following this too and is now consulting with governments and private companies.

[Regina Barber]

You've got a convergence of people who are thinking that they can improve their children, whether it's their children's health or their children's appearance or their children's intelligence, along with people who are comfortable using the newest technologies and people who have the money and the chutzpah, the daring to try and do this through starting companies that would bring these forces together.

[Rob Stein]

So then I went out and, you know, I started talking to some of these Silicon Valley venture capitalists who were trying to decide whether there are any companies out there that they could invest in or whether maybe they should just start, try starting up a company themselves. And I found out that a prominent cryptocurrency billionaire publicly had announced that he wanted to start an embryo editing company. And there were rumors swirling that a startup was getting going in California. And just as I was about to put my story on the radio, guess what happened?

[Regina Barber]

What? What happened?

[Rob Stein]

Well, there's this woman that I've been trying to interview. I found out she was just about to reveal that she was starting the first company to publicly announce plans to pursue editing human embryos.

[Regina Barber]

Wow. So this is starting up again.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, it's a real thing. And so I quickly, finally scored an interview with that woman to break that news. Her name is Kathy Tai, and what she was announcing was her latest startup, a fledgling company based in New York. That. And get this, she was calling the Manhattan Project.

[Regina Barber]

Wow, that is. That is something.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, yeah. And Kathy Tighe says she chose the name deliberately because she thinks the scale of what she wants to do is just as bold as the original Manhattan Project that created the atomic bomb.

[Regina Barber]

And just as controversial, apparently.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah.

[Regina Barber]

Manhattan Project will explore how to do gene correction in human embryos more safely. We want to be the company that does this in the light, with transparency and with good intentions. Okay. I mean, in the light and good intentions, it all sounds good. But, like, what exactly is she saying she wants to do, you know, Ty.

[Rob Stein]

Says her Manhattan Project plans to test newer, potentially less risky gene editing techniques than crispr. You know, that's the techniques that Chinese scientists use.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah.

[Rob Stein]

So she co founded the company with Ariana Hysoli. She headed biological scientists at another company called Colossal Biosciences.

[Regina Barber]

This is the company that wants to de extinct mammoths and the dire wolves, all that.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are the folks that are using gene editing in the hopes of kind of bringing back extinct animals, like you said, like the woolly mammoth.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, so I think this is a good place to pause and just like, talk about what CRISPR is. Exactly.

[Rob Stein]

Sure. It's, you know, it's a relatively new technology that allows scientists to modify DNA much more easily than ever before. And many scientists think CRISPR will revolutionize scientists. That it may be already is because it's already led to new treatments for inherited diseases like sickle cell. But CRISPR can be kind of messy. So scientists are exploring newer gene editing techniques that could be more precise for this sort of thing. Like a technique known as base editing.

[Regina Barber]

Okay.

[Rob Stein]

And so Ty and her colleagues hope to prove that one of these newer gene editing techniques would be safe to modify embryos to make babies. Babies, you know, that wouldn't be born with diseases like cystic fibrosis, maybe Alzheimer' by editing out disease causing mutations at the embryonic level.

[Regina Barber]

Wow. There are so many diseases that have no cures, and there's not going to be a cure for them for many more decades. And I think that we have a responsibility to talk about this with patients that do have those herbal diseases and see if they want the option to not pass that on to their future generations.

[Rob Stein]

But, you know, Gina, some investors and other Folks are talking about going further with this sort of thing.

[Regina Barber]

Right. I mean, where do you draw the line?

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, and that's part of the problem. That's a very fuzzy line. But some people are saying that if this does turn out to be safe, they say parents should basically just have the option, have the freedom to use it in all sorts of ways.

[Regina Barber]

Right, like physical features.

[Rob Stein]

Exactly, exactly. And this is where that odd coalition I was talking about earlier starts to come in. I talked about this stuff with Malcolm Collins and his wife Simone. They're vocal pronatalists.

[Regina Barber]

Okay. So they think people should be having more kids.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, yeah. And they're funding many cutting edge reproductive technologies. People can say, well, you're playing God by using this type of technology. And I'd say people would say that with any technology of the past. They'd say, you're playing God with glasses. They say you're playing God with blood transfusions. I'm really excited for a future within.

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Human history where there are some people that have decided to really lean into technologies like this.

[Regina Barber]

We fundamentally believe in reproductive choice. And we also very much support parents rights to give their children every privilege they can. And if people would like to start to do that at a genetic level, they should have every right to do so.

[Rob Stein]

Now, I think it's really important to point out that, you know, many scientists do not endorse that point of view. They do endorse researching genetic modification of sperm, eggs and embryos, however. And the reason for that is they think it could lead to big discoveries about basic human biology and reproduction, and that could have lots of benefits, like leading to new ways to treat infertility, maybe prevent miscarriages. I talked about this with Dr. Paula Amato. She works on embryo editing at the Oregon Health and Science University. And she says it's tough because the federal government doesn't fund this kind of work.

[Regina Barber]

NIH doesn't typically support human embryo research. So if the technology bros are interested, that would be welcome in the field.

[Rob Stein]

Oh, yeah. But as long as they make safety the top priority. She says, and at least initially would only try to edit out diseases, she knows this kind of work has to be done very carefully and with strict oversight.

[Regina Barber]

Okay, but even if tech people in Silicon Valley, like, want to do this, I thought they couldn't. Because it's illegal to try to make gene edited babies.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah. It is prohibited in many countries. And in the United States, US Regulations would prohibit trying to make gene edited babies out of genetically modified embryos. And several leading scientific organizations just recently called for at least a 10 year moratorium on anyone trying to make gene edited babies, including Tim Hunt. He's the chief executive officer for the alliance for Regenerative Medicine.

[Regina Barber]

Human heritable germline editing is quite clearly a terrible solution in search of a problem. If you make a mistake, the mistake passes on to all future generations. So that's a pretty big ethical roll of the dice.

[Rob Stein]

But some wonder whether this could change. I talked about this with Glenn Cohn. He's a lawyer and bioethicist at Harvard.

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There's a president who has summone advisors.

[Regina Barber]

And some political forces whispering in his ear that have a decidedly pronatalist bent that are interested in these technologies. All of that is opening up a.

[NPR Sponsor]

Moment where some of what would have.

[Regina Barber]

Been unthinkable may now become possible.

[Rob Stein]

But all of this is setting off lots of alarm bells, as you might imagine.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah. Like tell me about those alarm bells.

[Rob Stein]

So I talked to Hank Greely about that. He's a bioethicist at Stanford.

[Regina Barber]

Move fast and break things has not.

[Rob Stein]

Worked very well for Silicon Valley. In healthcare.

[Regina Barber]

When you talk about reproduction, the things.

[Rob Stein]

You are breaking are babies.

[Regina Barber]

And I think that makes it even.

[Rob Stein]

More dangerous and even more sinister. And Greeley, you know, he's far from alone. I talked with a bunch of bioethicists who agree that renewed interest is making them very worried. And they argue that this movement is today's version of eugenics. You know, that long discredited pursuit of supposedly genetically superior people.

[Regina Barber]

Yeah.

[Rob Stein]

And I talked about this with Katie Hassan. She's the associate director of the center for Genetics Society, a genetic technologies watchdog group.

[Regina Barber]

We're going to mass produce genetically engineered human beings. And I think that's a very dangerous way to approach these technologies. Right. I'm very worried. Right. That all of this together is, you know, means that we're headed straight into a new era of high tech market based eugenics. Yeah. What do the folks like the founders of the Manhattan Project say about all this?

[Rob Stein]

You know, so they agree that safety has to be the number one top priority and would only move forward if they can show that it is. But the Manhattan Project, Haisoli argues the potential benefits of editing human embryos could be huge.

[Regina Barber]

If you have the tools to actually correct the pathogenic mutation that can be passed down to other generations. Is it sort of like ethical to do it or not to do it? And I would argue it would be more ethical to stop that mutation.

[Rob Stein]

And remember the CRISPR baby scientist?

[Regina Barber]

Yeah.

[Rob Stein]

Since getting out of a Chinese prison. He's gone from repentant to defiant and is vowing to resume working on gene edited babies, too.

[Regina Barber]

Wow.

[Rob Stein]

But it turns out that Ty, the Manhattan Project co founder, was briefly married to that scientist.

[Regina Barber]

What? What?

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, I know, I know. But she says they recently divorced and that he has nothing to do with their new human embryo gene editing company.

[Regina Barber]

Wow. Okay.

[Rob Stein]

Yeah, I know. Well, it's kind of a small world in many ways, but she's already assembled a small scientific team and developed protocols to start working on a methodical set of experiments in a Manhattan lab. The team plans to start by studying mice before moving on to primates and then human cells before ultimately, they hope, working with human embryos. And the project's first goal will be to produce enough evidence to hopefully convince the federal government fund this kind of research and also persuade the Food and Drug Administration to authorize them to keep going.

[Regina Barber]

Oof. Well, Rob, you've given me a lot to think about today. Thank you so much for bringing all of this to Short Wave anytime.

[Rob Stein]

It's always great to be here, Gina.

[Regina Barber]

For all of you listening, if you liked this episode, make sure you'll never miss a new one by following us on the NPR app or whatever podcasting platform you're listening from. And if you have a science question you'd like us to investigate, send us an [e-mail] this episode was produced by Rachel Carlson and edited by Shore and Rebecca Ramirez. Rob Stein checked the facts. Jimmy Keeley was the audio engineer, Beth Donovan is our senior director, and Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Regina Barber. Thank you for listening to short wave from NPR. This message comes from LinkedIn ads. One of the hardest parts about B2B marketing is reaching the right audience. That's why you need LinkedIn ads. You can target your buyers by job title, company role, seniority and skills. All the professionals you need to reach in one place to get a $100 credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com results. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

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