Lauren Robinson (2:09)

Snow monkeys, they have what's called a strict hierarchy. So there is always someone at the top, but someone always ends up at the bottom of the hierarchy. Right?

Katia Riddle (2:18)

So it's a global spectacle for us. But in Japanese snow monkey land, this is just another day.

Lauren Robinson (2:24)

If we get mad at snow monkeys for being aggressive to each other, we might as well be mad at the rain for being wet. It's just who they are as a species.

Katia Riddle (2:34)

Today on the show, we're getting into monkey business. Is baby Punch an anomaly in the monkey world? Should we be defending him or leaving him alone? And what's the difference between monkey and human social hierarchies. Anyway, you're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.

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Katia Riddle (3:29)

The U.S. launches a military operation against Iran. Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating imminent threats from the Iranian regime. On State of the World, we'll bring you the latest on the operation as well as reaction from the region and around the globe. Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Lauren, so at the heart of this viral story about Punch is his mother's rejection. And I guess I'm wondering how common is this? Like a mother macaque rejecting or abandoning its baby?

Lauren Robinson (4:05)

Yeah, well, it's a tough situation. You know, it does happen where infants get left by the mother for whatever reason. We certainly hear about it in other facilities, so research facilities. They will try to actually, you know, give the baby to a surrogate, which does happen and works sometimes. So it's not uncommon to the extent that we have, you know, methods that we can try if there's an appropriate female to take on the infant who's actually interested in doing so. But that doesn't always happen. So. Yes, it doesn't. It's not uncommon is the best way to put it.

Katia Riddle (4:44)

And this obviously happened at a zoo in Japan. What would happen if this occurred in the wild?

Lauren Robinson (4:52)

It wouldn't be good for pun without anyone to support him. I don't think there's really any question about what would happen in the wild. I don't think he'd make it, you know, and that's important to remember as well that nature is not necessarily kind. Nature is just what it does. There's no need to judge it as like a negative or anything. It's just how nature works.

Katia Riddle (5:14)

Right? Right. And out there, you know, out in the wild, there aren't obviously zookeepers, as you're pointing out, to ease baby sadness.

Lauren Robinson (5:27)

Right.

Katia Riddle (5:27)

At the zoo there are. What do you make of this strategy to give him this adult size plush monkey?

Lauren Robinson (5:35)

Well, I suppose it does definitely bring back thoughts of Harry Harlow's work with the cloth mother. So that's a classic study where they take baby away and they give him a cloth mother and they tend to cling to it quite a lot. As far as a method, I'm not sure I've seen it done before. But then again, these things don't go viral all the time. And if he is getting comfort from it, then sure, why not? It's worth a try. I will say I think it very much brings back that work. We know how important mom is and it seems like he's getting an attachment from it.

Katia Riddle (6:09)

Right, and you're talking about Harry Harlow's experiments with Rhys's macaques. If I remember correctly, researchers gave the babies both a cloth mother and a wire mother. Both mothers offered milk, but the babies still prefer the cloth mother. So the thing that study was establishing was it's not just food that's developmentally critical, it's also affection. You're saying this feels similar?

Lauren Robinson (6:34)

Well, it only applies in the sense that there is a cloth mother that he is attached to. Harry Harlow did some of the early work as far as understanding the nature of love. He was very charismatic as far as how he presented it. A lot of us have conflicted feelings about him in psychology because obviously choosing to take an infant away from its mother to test how love works is not something that nowadays we would really want to see. But at the same time, that's really core information, obviously that helps us understand. He definitely took things a bit too far, in my opinion, in some of the work he did over the years. So really extreme isolation for monkeys, which is really bad for them. But yeah, he's one of the original researchers into the importance of mother bonds in primates.

Katia Riddle (7:26)

But what do we understand, just generally, what do we understand about how maternal guidance or lack thereof affects a baby monkey's development and well being? How might that be affecting Punch?

Lauren Robinson (7:39)

Well, as far as how it affects it, there have been studies where they have put babies with other juveniles to be raised in juvenile social groups. The truth is, in those situations, they're not as normal as we'd like. It's certainly not as ideal as having a mother because mom protects the baby, she provides a lot of social relationship education, teaching baby how to communicate rank as well as apologies again. It's not an ideal situation. So as far as how it's impacting Punch, I think we'll have to wait and see. But I think the zoo's doing the best they can. But I don't know if there's A good alternative.

Katia Riddle (8:23)

Also at play are the social rules of the macaque trope. Like his mother left him, and now to reintegrate, he has to find where he fits into the larger social hierarchy. How does that figure into his struggle?

Lauren Robinson (8:41)

Yeah, well, as I said earlier, it's hard to know where he'll end up in the hierarchy. And I don't know. It's a tough one to predict. If he learns quickly and he learns the ritualized aggression and how to apologize and get out of the way, I think he'll do all right. And it seems like he is getting relationships with other monkeys, so that's where you learn that information. But if he doesn't learn it and he, you know, misreads information, that's a tougher life. That's probably like getting that education as you go. In a more strict way, shall we say, when it comes to snow monkeys, the dominant male will definitely let him know his place.

Katia Riddle (9:23)

Wait, okay. You mentioned earlier that snow monkey society is characterized by a pretty strict social hierarchy. And this is common among other kind of macaques. Tell me more about that.

Lauren Robinson (9:36)

So basically, we have despotic monkeys, like snow monkeys and rhesus macaques. They're on the higher end for what we call a despotic group, meaning that they do have this more strict hierarchy with these very ritualized aggression behaviors. The other end of that is more egalitarian. So in those groups, you're allowed to threaten the dominant male, and you probably will get away with it. He's a bit more tolerant. As far as how we measure dominance, there are different behaviors that we look at. So typically, we will look at what's called a supplant behavior. So this is when one animal moves either near or physically contacts another. And if that animal moves, that's considered to be a supplant. So you've kind of forced that monkey to move. We can also look at who wins in fights, things like that. There are behaviors that we are really interested in. So, you know, those aggression displays, those chases, things like that, who's getting chased, who leaves, who runs away, who avoids. Those are the kind of things where, if we had to do it mathematically, we try to figure out who is at the top.

Katia Riddle (10:46)

That's so interesting. In recent days, we have seen punch hanging around with other macaques. When will we know when and if he's fully integrated? What would the indicators of that be?

Lauren Robinson (10:58)

Well, I think it would be that he has grooming relationships that are pretty consistent. Aggression in itself is not necessarily A sign he's not integrated. So that's important to remember. You know, the hierarchy will reinforce itself. So if he acts up or if a dominant decides that he needs to let Punch know, that can happen. It doesn't mean he's not integrated into the group. I think it's easier to identify the signs that he's not, where he'd be completely isolated and receive really high, intense aggression, which I don't think is what's happening. We're starting to see grooming relationships. So that's another really great sign that they're grooming him and, you know, spending time in proximity and near him. So those are all good signs that he's being brought into the group. But he's got quite a few years till he reaches adulthood anyway. You know, he's just a juvenile. He's just a baby right now.

Katia Riddle (11:52)

So good news for Punch fans at the moment, it seems like he is adjusting.

Lauren Robinson (11:58)

I think so from what I've seen,

Katia Riddle (12:00)

you know, in some ways, it feels like Punch is just the latest animal that humans have latched onto. We had Mu Dang, the young pygmy hippo. People have been obsessed with orcas destroying yachts. I know that you study animal psychology mostly.

Lauren Robinson (12:16)

Yes.

Katia Riddle (12:16)

But I wonder why you think we as primates are projecting our feelings onto these other species.

Lauren Robinson (12:24)

Yeah. So that's something I think about a lot. Right. It's called anthropomorphism. So projecting human thoughts and feelings onto animals. But I think it's probably because they are interesting. They are engaging in a way that very much speaks to us as people, and it's part of why I enjoy watching monkeys.

Katia Riddle (12:44)

Totally. But it sounds like what you're saying is we gotta remember that our species are pretty different and we can imagine a lot of things about them that just aren't true.

Lauren Robinson (12:55)

Yeah. Well, I think it's an opportunity that I would hope for the public to kind of step back and say, is there something I'm missing? Do I not understand this species? You know, we don't want to project our own human narratives onto animals. I think they're just kind of doing what snow monkeys do.

Katia Riddle (13:12)

Well, Lauren, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great to chat with you.

Lauren Robinson (13:17)

Yeah, thank you for having me. That was really fun.

Katia Riddle (13:22)

This episode was produced by Hannah Chen. It was edited by our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez, and fact checked by Tyler Jones. Robert Rodriguez was the audio engineer. I'm Katia Riddle. Thanks for listening to shortwave, the science podcast from npr,

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Lauren Robinson (14:07)

Hey, it's Tonya Moseley, co host of Fresh air. Don't miss my interview with actor Kate Hudson. We talk about her music, career, motherhood and, of course, her breakout role.

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You can find my interview on the FRESH AIR podcast.

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