← Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson
Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson
Revel In It: Surviving the Wolf of Wall Street
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- [00:00]
Oliver Hudson
Sister Wives returns at last. And while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle form an unlikely alliance, Christine is off living in newly married bliss, and Kody and Robin are left wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship? And after all the joy and drama, they hit the hot seat and answer the questions everyone has been begging to know. Sister Wives return Sunday at 109 Central.
- [00:22]
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- [00:54]
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- [01:10]
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- [01:25]
Oliver Hudson
We're leaving today and entering a world of Cinderella, Castle sightseeing, Tron Light cycling jungle cruise Punning Pirate swashbuckling Everest. Climbing Dapper Danning. Danning. Dunning, Soaring, soaring. Fireworks show of I'm not crying. You're crying. World of favorites for whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth. Walt Disney World Resort. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
- [02:03]
Walmart Advertiser
We wanted to do something that highlighted.
- [02:05]
Oliver Hudson
Our relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no sibling R for free.
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Dr. Nadine
Don't do that with your mouth.
- [02:24]
Oliver Hudson
Sibling revelry.
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Dr. Nadine
That's good.
- [02:33]
Oliver Hudson
Oliver Hudson here, taking you down the yellow brick road of another podcast which leads to Oz. What is Oz? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe Oz is me. Maybe I'm leading you down a road to myself. You see how deep I can get sometimes when I just let my mind wander? I got A week left on this show in Toronto. And if you've listened, you understand that I'm here, ready to get home, loving what I'm doing, loving the cast, loving the movie, loving my son being in this movie. But I'm ready to get home. I love you, Toronto, but LA is calling me. LA is calling me. But in the meantime, we are here. We're doing a show, we're doing a podcast. I'm in my room as I am. It's so unprofessional. Everyone else has these, like, incredible setups with neon lights and signs and mics that sort of float in the ether. And, you know, here I am, like, super analog with a white V neck on, horrible lighting in a room. But I guess that's what makes it me. I'm not very flashy, but at the same time, once I get back to la, maybe I'll set something up. Really dope, but we're on the fly, baby. We're on the go. Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much time talking about myself because we have Dr. Nadine, Dr. Nay in the waiting room doing awesome work involving toxic relationships. But, you know, I'm pretty sure she. She came to it late, too. I think she got her PhD, you know, pretty late in life. I think, obviously, her character, she was the inspiration for Wolf of Wall Street. Margot Robbie's character. Belford. Naomi Belford. Well, without further ad, let's bring her on.
- [04:39]
Dr. Nadine
Hi.
- [04:40]
Oliver Hudson
How are you?
- [04:42]
Dr. Nadine
I'm really good, thank you.
- [04:43]
Oliver Hudson
Are you good? Where are you?
- [04:45]
Dr. Nadine
I'm in Boca Raton, Florida.
- [04:47]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, nice. You're in the warm. I'm in the freezing cold.
- [04:50]
Dr. Nadine
I know. You're filming, right?
- [04:52]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, I'm doing a fun movie for Netflix. And I got about a week left. And then. And then home.
- [04:59]
Dr. Nadine
Good.
- [05:00]
Oliver Hudson
And then home. And I can't wait. I can't wait to be home.
- [05:02]
Dr. Nadine
I'm sure there's no place like home.
- [05:06]
Oliver Hudson
No, I know, I know. So let's start where you are now. Okay. And then we can go back. But, you know, your patience. Let's talk about your patience. Let's talk about what you do. Let's talk about what you specialize in, because I'm sure you could probably help me. So give us a little rundown of sort of your situation, the kind of people that you're helping. And then also, didn't you come to this a little later in life?
- [05:33]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't go back to school until I was 39 and got my master's and then got my Doctorate. Yeah, I definitely came to this later in life. I'm a late bloomer for sure. And I love what I do, though. I'm so. I just love it. I help women every single day recognize, heal, and escape from trauma bonds, which is a toxic relationship. I get women now, thanks to Zoom, I get women from all over the world.
- [06:02]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. So trauma bond, you know, explain for those who might not know what that is. You know, explain that.
- [06:12]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. So a trauma bond is any toxic, dysfunctional connection between two emotionally attached people. Right. It could be between parent and child. It could be between boss and employee. It could be between friends. But the way I write about it is between lovers. But what makes it pathological is that one of the partners wants power and control over the other partner.
- [06:38]
Oliver Hudson
And do you find that it usually goes, man wants the power over the woman?
- [06:44]
Dr. Nadine
I think it could be 75, 25. I think definitely women that want power over their men, you know, and do it. And so in that relationship, usually that person wants control. So they will, though, this is the way I say it, the pathological partner, right, Will lie, harm, exploit, and betray their lover to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure and status. It's that simple.
- [07:12]
Oliver Hudson
Okay. Whoa. It's simple. But there's all kinds of different caveats and avenues as to how they might achieve that.
- [07:21]
Dr. Nadine
Correct? Correct. Correct. So, yeah. So what happens in the beginning of a trauma bond is that this pathological person, I call them Romeo, they come in and they're charming and kind and warm and generous and, like, so adoring and so that you fall in love because you're like, oh, my God, I met a unicorn. This person is awesome. They meet all my needs. They're obsessed with me. But then over time, the mask falls and you get to meet Dirty John.
- [07:53]
Oliver Hudson
Hmm. Now, do you think that this is a premeditated, calculated situation, or does it just happen? Are you with a narcissist who might have good intentions at first, but they can't get away from probably and potentially their own trauma, which has led them to be who they are?
- [08:19]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, I think it can go both ways. I think that sometimes they do unconsciously, like, believe that they believe they want to love, but they're just so self centered. But I think a lot of the times it really is calculated and premeditated. And I'll tell you why. Because they can act totally differently when they want. And then the second they're alone with their lover, that's when they get controlling and cruel and they lie right to their face. But Then they have to go out to dinner and they're just back to their Romeo selves.
- [08:58]
Oliver Hudson
Mm. Yeah. And it seems to be. It seems like these people may lack empathy.
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Dr. Nadine
Yes.
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Oliver Hudson
Right.
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Dr. Nadine
Yeah. Yeah, they definitely lack empathy. They definitely lack remorse and compassion. Because think about it, if you are just a tool on their tool belt, they can't see you as a person and have empathy.
- [09:21]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. It's so interesting because, you know, obviously narcissism, there's degrees of it, I'm sure. Sometimes I question whether I have some sort of narcissism. I mean, do we all have a little bit of it? Is there sort of some self preservation in being a narcissist?
- [09:42]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, like we, we all. I mean, healthy narcissism is okay. I mean, healthy self esteem. Esteem based upon like your actual accomplishments or what you are really capable of. But like a narcissist is much more entitled and grandiose and they're exploitative. So you can like, you can be selfish sometimes. That's normal. Like sometimes, you know, self care is selfish. Like it's okay selfish, but this is like an extra. This is a pattern of it continually where you're exploiting people, using people and harming people to get your needs met.
- [10:21]
Oliver Hudson
Mm. Gosh. And then the bond comes from the flip side of that. Right. So it's. It's the, like you, you know, I think, I think you talked about how in your past and sort of what led you down the path that you are on right now is your relationship and how it would be complet. Total and utter devastating dog. And then you would come into your apartment and there'd be a billion roses.
- [10:47]
Dr. Nadine
That's right. That's right. And that's what creates the bond is that intermittent reinforcement where, you know, extreme acts of generosity and kindness but mixed with extreme cruelty. And that's what creates the bond, which seems counterintuitive, but it actually does because you're always hoping for Romeo and that kindness and generosity to come back. So you tolerate, as you say, the dog shit times.
- [11:17]
Oliver Hudson
Do you think that, you know, there is a certain kind of a person who is more susceptible to sort of being taken advantage of that way, you know, who has. They're more susceptible to having that trauma bond, you know?
- [11:38]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, I. I have two thoughts about that. So first of all, everybody can be conned by a con artist.
- [11:44]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, Right.
- [11:45]
Dr. Nadine
If a con artist is really good and they want to manipulate you, they're going to do it. They're going to read you. They're going to figure out ways to manipulate you. But if you are a very trusting person, like, I was strong and naive and I just thought everybody was like me. I was like, oh, I could trust this person. They have the same intentions that I have. And so if you are a very trusting person and you are agreeable and loyal and tolerant and you fall in love with a pathological person, you're in trouble.
- [12:17]
Oliver Hudson
And how long did you actually stay in it for?
- [12:20]
Dr. Nadine
Eight years.
- [12:21]
Oliver Hudson
Eight years. And at what point did you know? Because you are a highly intellectual person, you are most likely very evolved, maybe more so now than then. But was there moments where you're like, wait a minute. Like, this is so fucked. I am, I. I shouldn't be here. I'm smarter than this, but I can't, I can't.
- [12:47]
Dr. Nadine
Oh, there were so many moments like that. I mean, that's the whole thing that you feel in the relationship. You're like, what am I doing? I'm going against myself here to stay connected in to this person in this relationship. And my ex's drug addiction was so insane that I was really always focused on that and trying to figure out ways for him to be sober, which didn't work very well. But it really started for me right in the beginning, because when I first met him, he was like, if you don't. If you don't marry me, if you're not going to tell me, we're going to marry me, I'm not going to date you. And I was like, what? I'm 23. I don't want to get married like the goalpost while he's moving. And then if you don't, if you don't. If you're not going to have kids and I'm not going to marry you. And I was like, what's happening? But I just was rationalized and I was like, oh, my God, he just loves me so much.
- [13:45]
Oliver Hudson
What does your parents say about all this?
- [13:47]
Dr. Nadine
Oh, my God. My mother took me to lunch and she was British and she was like, you know, you don't have to do this. And I was like, my mom, I love him so much. And she just was like, okay, yeah.
- [14:02]
Oliver Hudson
And what about your dad? I don't, I don't know what your relationship with your parents.
- [14:05]
Dr. Nadine
My dad was a gambling. I mean, as a gambling addict. So he was excited because he knew he'd have access to a lot of money. So he was like, go for it, go for it.
- [14:18]
Oliver Hudson
Not to be too analytical because I've been in therapy for fucking 24 years. I've been to the Hoffman process like I am. Oh, yeah.
- [14:25]
Dr. Nadine
So you've done it. You've done it?
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Oliver Hudson
Yeah, I have and I continue to try to do it. Although I should probably get back into therapy. It's funny because I was in the car ride to work today and I'm thinking, man, you know, it's been a minute since I've been in therapy and I'm an advocate for it. Meaning not just when you are, you know, feeling bad about yourself or you have something you need to get through. It's. There's, it's more of just sort of a checkup. That's that one should do. If they have the means every week, why not? And I'm like, man, why have I, you know, why am I not in therapy right now? You know, why am I not doing this? Yeah. So gambler.
- [15:03]
Dr. Nadine
That's right.
- [15:04]
Oliver Hudson
Probably some sort of a hustler if you're a gambler. I like to gamble. You know, I have my vices. I consider myself a lowercase, a addict. And I don't even in many different things, you know.
- [15:17]
Dr. Nadine
Yes, yes, I like that.
- [15:18]
Oliver Hudson
So I can kind of understand that idea. Is there a part of that, you know, that attraction essentially, like, this is my father and this is what I want.
- [15:29]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. I think that, you know, my dad wasn't that much in my life. He was like, I work a real Disneyland dad, like literally came and took me to Disney and then I didn't see him that often. Of course, in retrospect, when you think about it, the stock market is just legal gambling. Yeah, right. So there is that risk taking, living on the edge experience to it. And for me, you know, my was. I grew up with a mother who was in the 70s reading young and Freud and like, oh, wow. So we were always talking about our feelings and my family was very psychological and I grew in a really calm, peaceful household. So when I first met my ex husband and he's like raging at me and so angry, I'm like, what the. I'm like, what's happening? I really didn't know what to do. Now I am from Brooklyn, so I fight back, but I was no match for him.
- [16:24]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, but what was the allure? I guess, you know what I mean? Was it the money and the fun and the things?
- [16:30]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was modeling in New York city in the 80s, the 90s.
- [16:35]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Oh my gosh.
- [16:37]
Dr. Nadine
Okay. And he was, Listen, I was 22, I was 23, he was 28. We didn't have a big age difference. I'M from Brooklyn, he's from Queens, he's charming, he's handsome, he's very bright. And it was easy to fall in love with him. But then as the Romeo mask fell and I got to see this other side of him. That's what happens in the trauma bond. I'm like, what the hell is happening? Wait, where's the guy I fell in love with? And I had no point of reference for the way he behaved. Not that many people would after you see the movie.
- [17:11]
Oliver Hudson
Right, right. Of course.
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Dr. Nadine
You know, it's pretty out of control. And I think. And I put. What happened is I put myself right into therapy at 23.
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Oliver Hudson
Oh, wow.
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Dr. Nadine
I can't handle this life. So I never lived in a 10,000 square foot house before and had help. And then I couldn't manage him. So I believe therapy saved my life.
- [17:31]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
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Dr. Nadine
And that's why I became a therapist.
- [17:37]
Oliver Hudson
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- [18:39]
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- [19:38]
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- [20:13]
Oliver Hudson
When did that mask fall? You know, I mean, how long was it. How long was that beautiful mask on before it started to melt off?
- [20:20]
Dr. Nadine
I only on for six months.
- [20:24]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, shit.
- [20:25]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, because six months later we got engaged and six months later we got married. So now I'm in it.
- [20:31]
Oliver Hudson
Wow.
- [20:32]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. And that's why trauma bonds often can be. They're like fast and furious and super intense.
- [20:37]
Oliver Hudson
Was there ever. Were there moments where you're like, I'm out of here.
- [20:42]
Dr. Nadine
Oh, yeah. Like when he ripped the phone out of the wall. I wouldn't. I didn't want to have kids right away. Yeah. But then just like a typical trauma bond, you know, I laugh about this. We'd have a fight and then there'd be a horse in my driveway. Okay. I guess we could work this out. And, you know, and being raised by a single mother in Brooklyn, you know, we didn't have a lot of money. And so then to come into all this money, of course, that was alluring and fun. Yeah. So. So that was a. That was a big. But there was a lot of strings with that.
- [21:22]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, of course, the infidelity starts and everything starts, and then you're just. It seems like you just get wrapped up in this tornado.
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Dr. Nadine
Yeah.
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Oliver Hudson
And. And that funnel is just spinning you around. And even though you can get an arm out and you're trying to, you know, sort of crawl your way out of this cyclone, it's near impossible. It's just, it's spinning too fast.
- [21:45]
Dr. Nadine
And the thing with him, too, is that, you know, in the movie, they depict, you Know that he was. That I was very jealous and he was cheating on me, which I'm sure he was cheating on me. But the interesting part is we never had a fight about a woman.
- [21:58]
Oliver Hudson
Really?
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Dr. Nadine
Yeah. But he wrote.
- [22:01]
Oliver Hudson
Why is that like that?
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Dr. Nadine
Because I never knew.
- [22:04]
Oliver Hudson
Oh.
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Dr. Nadine
He wrote the book like that and made the movie like that. But so that's just so interesting. We really thought about the drugs all the time.
- [22:12]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. And did you find yourself. Because you seem like a pretty grounded, compassionate person. Did you find yourself having compassion for this man as well?
- [22:23]
Dr. Nadine
So much.
- [22:24]
Oliver Hudson
Right. I mean, I. I would. I would assume that part of the trauma bond is the one who is experiencing that trauma is also experiencing, at the same time, real genuine compassion for this person who's out of control. So they're almost preying on, you know, your softness.
- [22:43]
Dr. Nadine
Completely. Completely. I had so much empathy for him. And that's exactly what they do, is weaponizing my empathy. Right. Because of course I felt scared for him. You know, when you go to dinner with your husband, and all of a sudden you get yourself. You go to dinner and you don't see him pop 10 quaaludes, and then you sit down to dinner and he's like, oh, how's this checking, you know what happens? And you have to make a bread pillow for his face because. Right.
- [23:14]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [23:15]
Dr. Nadine
I was just like, who would want to do that to themselves?
- [23:18]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Yeah. And you never got caught up in that world.
- [23:22]
Dr. Nadine
No, I would take one.
- [23:23]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [23:26]
Dr. Nadine
I just. I never had that crazy desire to escape that myself that much. You know, I could have, like, a balanced sense of one for my.
- [23:36]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [23:37]
Dr. Nadine
But now.
- [23:39]
Oliver Hudson
And when was that moment where you sort of found the strength to just be like, I'm out. Once he got. Once he got dinged.
- [23:46]
Dr. Nadine
Well, what happened was that he was. The coke turns in. I mean, the preludes turns into coke. And I say, he was cooking crack in my country kitchen, and I was little babies upstairs. And I'm like, okay, this is done. This is done. And I said to him, I'm not going to sit here and watch you kill yourself like all your friends do. Said, you have to go to rehab or I'm leaving you. And that's crazy. Do all my clothing and jewelry into the fireplace and let them on fire. And was like, you're not leaving, and I'm not getting sober, and you're not going to tell me what to do. And I just went to my closet and said, God, give me the strength to do this.
- [24:26]
Oliver Hudson
Did you? Did, yeah.
- [24:28]
Dr. Nadine
And I did. And that's where the movie. You see where he gets violent with me.
- [24:32]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [24:33]
Dr. Nadine
It's because I confronted him about that. And you see when he drives my daughter. And so that was that moment. But I actually jumped in the car and put. Had my housekeeper put the garage door down, so everybody was fine. And then he did get sober. He did, he did. He went. Yeah, it was. We almost all got killed. But he did get sober and then he came back. But emotionally I was done.
- [24:59]
Oliver Hudson
You were?
- [25:00]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah.
- [25:00]
Oliver Hudson
And.
- [25:01]
Dr. Nadine
And he got arrested.
- [25:03]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [25:03]
Dr. Nadine
It's like, okay, here your ankle bracelet. Now is my freedom.
- [25:08]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [25:09]
Dr. Nadine
Because the power imbalance shifted.
- [25:11]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, exactly. Interesting. Right, Right. You took the throne essentially.
- [25:18]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, Yeah. I. He just couldn't have power over me anymore. So like, I'm done, I'm out.
- [25:26]
Oliver Hudson
Was that just so liberating?
- [25:28]
Dr. Nadine
You have no idea.
- [25:29]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. I mean you could take a big deep breath. It feels like.
- [25:33]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. I always. I did a post about this with Tom Cruise in Risky Business. When he's on the couch dancing in his parents sleeve and his underwear.
- [25:45]
Oliver Hudson
That's how I felt. Yeah.
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Dr. Nadine
Yeah, that's how I felt.
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Oliver Hudson
And how old were your kids when you actually left?
- [25:51]
Dr. Nadine
They were three and five.
- [25:52]
Oliver Hudson
Okay, so they were little. So there's not a ton of recollection.
- [25:57]
Dr. Nadine
No, no. I mean, you know, my kids have a great relationship with their dad. My son.
- [26:01]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
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Dr. Nadine
My daughter's a therapist.
- [26:04]
Oliver Hudson
Amazing.
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Dr. Nadine
Yeah, they. They have a great relationship with their dad and they're close. I went to the premiere of the movie.
- [26:11]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
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Dr. Nadine
You know, I would never gatekeep my kids.
- [26:14]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [26:15]
Dr. Nadine
As long as I know that they're safe and he's sober and he's being a good dad.
- [26:19]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. And at what point? And then I want to get into sort of how this propelled you into what you do. Let's just do that now actually, because then I'll go back to sort of your current relationship with your ex husband, which I'm. I'm assuming it's okay, right? At this point.
- [26:36]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:38]
Oliver Hudson
And I would assume right now that you would not change a fucking thing in your life because of where you are now and what it has given you and how many people you're actually helping.
- [26:50]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. You know, I wish, I wish I could say I had like some big grand scheme that I thought all this was going to happen. It should have been so obvious to me, but it really wasn't. And so I got license and what was happening was that the movie came out when I got my doctorate was when. When the movie came out. I got my master's No, I got my doctorate.
- [27:14]
Oliver Hudson
Were you consulted on the movie?
- [27:16]
Dr. Nadine
I was not consulted because he wrote a book first. So the only thing was that I got to meet Margo and she wanted my accent, and I took her to dinner and. And that was really it. No, it's his story, his narrative. He makes all the money. Yeah. And that's okay.
- [27:34]
Oliver Hudson
That's fine. Right? Whatever. But what percentage. If you're gonna look at that movie and give a percentage of what's real and what's not real, what would you say?
- [27:42]
Dr. Nadine
90 is real.
- [27:43]
Oliver Hudson
Is it? Oh, great.
- [27:45]
Dr. Nadine
Oh, yeah.
- [27:45]
Oliver Hudson
Wow.
- [27:47]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah.
- [27:47]
Oliver Hudson
Wow. Wow. What about the famous Leo scene when he's crawling to the car?
- [27:53]
Dr. Nadine
That's. That's real.
- [27:55]
Oliver Hudson
Holy.
- [27:56]
Dr. Nadine
That's real. That's real. I mean, I wasn't there because I was waiting the house, and then the car. The house. The car came back, crashed, and I didn't know because they put him up bed. And then the police knocked on the door, and I was like, what's up? They're like, you got into an accident. Now it's all real.
- [28:10]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Okay, so you got certified and then you decided to become your therapist.
- [28:17]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah.
- [28:18]
Oliver Hudson
How? Did you find your clientele or did they find you?
- [28:22]
Dr. Nadine
They. They think they kind. So it. So that people start just to come to me because I'm a good therapist. And then once I started to really focus on helping women, now it's just like. Like wildfire. Because the very thing I worried about, I'm like, who the hell is going to want to come to me for therapy after they see this movie maniac? But then the opposite happens. Everybody was like, wait, I want to come to you. Because you walk. Your talk like you went this. And you came out here.
- [28:53]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [28:54]
Dr. Nadine
And so it all just worked out.
- [28:55]
Oliver Hudson
No, I was about to. I was about to say that because, again, I've been in therapy for a million years now. I don't know the backstory of all my therapists, although there's only a couple, but. But I haven't. I have enough of one. Because, yes, I am the patient. But at some. At some, I'm always asking them about their lives, and they're like, oliver, this is about you. I'm like, I don't care. Like, what. What's your deal? Like, how do you handle these things? So I. I'm always digging. But most likely most therapists who are, you know, giving you professional advice are doing so through school and not necessarily life experience. You know, I would rather be with somebody who has lived it as well, especially when you are in your lane, you know, it's very specific. So if I'm going to go see someone, it's like, oh, I want to see this woman who has experienced everything that I am now, who has not just, you know, a degree, but actual street smarts, you know what I'm saying? So I'm sure that that's alluring beyond alluring. And you might. And you probably have a way different perspective than a lot of other therapists.
- [30:07]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. And you know, a lot of times therapists will really re traumatize women that are in abusive relationships. Like, are you sure that's really happening? Maybe you're exaggerating, you're being overreactive. And so I believe them. No, it's real. And I know a lot of people can wear a mask of sanity and drive you crazy at. And so they know I believe them. I have so much empathy for them. And my husband goes, I know all your patients are beautiful. They are. And I love them. You know, I genuinely love them. And they know that I'm on their side.
- [30:42]
Oliver Hudson
Do you find sometimes with patients though, that they are maybe projecting something that is sort of a false narrative or something that they have concocted and that you have to sort of take them out of that to get to the.
- [30:55]
Dr. Nadine
Real shit, you know, with this sort of scenario. Not that much. And actually they might not even come in and tell me everything because they're so embarrassed. Right. In regular therapy, for sure, you know that that happens. But in this therapy, sometimes they're just so embarrassed for tolerating it and going back and, you know, it takes four to seven attempts for a woman to leave this sort of relationship.
- [31:23]
Oliver Hudson
Wow.
- [31:29]
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- [32:29]
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- [33:44]
Oliver Hudson
Is part of this kind of therapy going back into their lives and understanding why they are this way? Or is it more focused on the current situation?
- [33:54]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, more. It is more focused on the current. I say we are in the emotional emergency room doing emotional triage work because they're almost all in crisis. They're in fear. They have kids, they got divorce attorneys, they got crazy stuff. They're getting stalked, their phones are getting tired. I mean, there's just all sorts of crazy stuff. So sometimes if we've, once we've gone through the crisis, we might go back, of course, you know, but usually it's real. Like.
- [34:23]
Oliver Hudson
Okay, yeah, yeah, that's interesting because you do again, you have to deal with the situations at hand.
- [34:31]
Dr. Nadine
Yes.
- [34:31]
Oliver Hudson
And I can only speak from just sort of standard therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy. Anyway.
- [34:37]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah.
- [34:37]
Oliver Hudson
And. But then once you dig deeper, you understand sort of why you were even in this situation. Right. Because I'm assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that not all women or some men are susceptible to these things. There are. It's, you know, some are more than others, some are more than others, more than others.
- [35:01]
Dr. Nadine
And I break it down in My book, like why Certain Personality Traits lead you. But I, but what I say is that anybody and everybody could really be fooled by a con artist now. Not at my age, but no, Right.
- [35:16]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, so yeah, exactly. That's a good point actually. You know, like life experience.
- [35:21]
Dr. Nadine
Of course, yeah, yeah.
- [35:23]
Oliver Hudson
When, when you're, when you're 22 and you're getting, you're preyed upon, you're way more susceptible than if you're in your 50.
- [35:31]
Dr. Nadine
Right, exactly, exactly. So I think age has a bit to do with it too. And also like, how evolved is the person? Are they self aware? Have they been interested in psychology? If not.
- [35:42]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. And what was your relationship, what was your first relationship like after that?
- [35:48]
Dr. Nadine
Oh God, I had so much fun. I was dating everybody.
- [35:51]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, you were? Oh, good. So you had a great time.
- [35:56]
Dr. Nadine
I was like 32 in a ball. I dated Michael Bolton, like so many people. And then somebody said to me, hey, I have this guy I want you going to blind date with. And I said, oh my God, I've never gone on a blind date. I said, I'll go out with anybody once. How bad could it be? And now he's my husband.
- [36:17]
Oliver Hudson
Amazing. That's awesome. But when you were starting to date again, were you purposefully trying to just keep it, you know, pretty surface because you're like, ah, yeah. Was there, was there PTSD involved? Was, was there that kind. You know, so yeah. How did, how were you able to sort of get through that to then have a healthy 25 year relationship?
- [36:42]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, well, like, you know, you mentioned how you went to like the Hoffman Institute.
- [36:45]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [36:45]
Dr. Nadine
After I left my ex, I went to a place called the Karen foundation and they have a program there called Breakthrough, which is like a five day program for people who want to learn how to set boundaries, learn how to say no, want to go back to their family of origin, learn about themselves. So I did that because I was like, there, there's no way in hell I want to go through that again. Terrified to go through that again. So I checked myself in there so that between all the years of therapy and that, I felt like, okay, I think I can trust myself.
- [37:19]
Oliver Hudson
You know, that's interesting. It's funny you say that. You said trust yourself, not trust someone else. Right, right. Because that's really what it's about.
- [37:28]
Dr. Nadine
Exactly. 100.
- [37:30]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Because you, I mean, at the end of the day, hopefully we all find trustworthy people in our lives, but we have no control over what that other individual does. That's it. And there's something liberating about that. If you can really get down to that feeling of, well, I can't control you, I can't control what you're gonna do. And if I'm going to sort of be all up in my head about what you might do, I'm only causing myself pain. That hasn't even happened yet, you know, I mean, I. I've been married for 18 years, together for 23 or 24. Yeah. Thank you. We've been through our shit, there's no doubt about it. I mean, big time stuff, you know, and with my wife and she's had to sort of, in her mind, sort of go through these scenarios and situations where she has to let it all go because nothing is certain. Nothing is certain. So let's just exist today and make the best of the day and not ruminate and catastrophize.
- [38:43]
Dr. Nadine
Yes.
- [38:44]
Oliver Hudson
You know, because that's only causes harm.
- [38:47]
Dr. Nadine
So well said. So well said. Right. Because the scariest things live in our mind. Right. But when we could be present, focused in the here and now and just say to us, like, oh, I'm safe. This is good right now. I'm gonna take it. Yeah.
- [39:02]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. So run like hell. Is that your. Is that your first book?
- [39:06]
Dr. Nadine
Oh, it's my first and maybe.
- [39:09]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, really? I want to do another one.
- [39:11]
Dr. Nadine
Oh. I mean, of course, I'm the only, like, idiot that wrote a book before. AI. Right. It like finished. But yeah, it was so hard because you're writing about hard stuff. I take four clinical. I take four couples that are trauma bonded and then I weave all their stories throughout all the clinical material to make life.
- [39:31]
California Psychics Advertiser
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- [39:32]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. So it was really hard. Honestly, I don't even know who wrote it. I read. I'm like, I wrote this. Yeah. I'm so glad I did it because it's helping so many people.
- [39:43]
Oliver Hudson
I think that's a great. A great way to do it because it's. And I haven't read it yet, but it seems like there's a narrative aspect to it rather than just sort of a dry sort of book on. On psychology or therapy.
- [39:57]
Dr. Nadine
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so what happened is that, you know, I sit in this, my office and I hear all these insane stories and narratives and experiences. So I just wove them into all different characters, the names, and let them come to life. All different ages so different people can relate to it. And then like you say, it's a narrative and then people can really see themselves in the stories.
- [40:24]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, exactly. There's a relatability there for sure.
- [40:28]
Dr. Nadine
Yes, yes.
- [40:29]
Oliver Hudson
So you talked about. You just sort of grazed over it. But just the sort of. The kinds of people who might be more susceptible or less susceptible, is that actually categorized? Are there?
- [40:41]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So in 2019, I read a great book called Women who Love Psychopaths. There was great research in there. And there's. I don't know if you've ever taken this test, but I can send it to you. It's the five factor model of personality tests. Openness to experience, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. I give it to all my patients. And the research showed that women that scored very high in agreeableness and conscientiousness were perfect prey reason that you said those good qualities get weaponized. Guess who scores very high in both.
- [41:23]
Oliver Hudson
Conscientiousness, too.
- [41:25]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, conscientiousness. Like, meaning that's how I got my PhD. Because I'm organized and diligent and I'm driven and I'm like, I'm going to get it done. Great. But not when you're in a toxic relationship.
- [41:35]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [41:36]
Dr. Nadine
You're like, I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna make this work.
- [41:41]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. And it seems like most women are aware that they are in this. They are not unaware of it. Yeah, right.
- [41:50]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, they're. They're aware of it. And I. I started a trauma bond recovery community, and it's really inexpensive because I really want to democratize, like giving women access to. To these resources. They're aware of it and they're crying because they want to go back, knowing they shouldn't go back, but still longing for this person. It's a real mind bend.
- [42:20]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. It's so interesting. It just sort of warps your own psychology. It warps your own values, you know, or what you thought. You know, I would. I'll never stay in something like this three years later, like, oh, my God. Oh, what am I doing? I can't get out.
- [42:37]
Dr. Nadine
Right. Women come to me after 20, 30, 47 years.
- [42:46]
Oliver Hudson
47 years and they finally got out.
- [42:49]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. Oh, that's the jail. It's worse.
- [42:54]
Oliver Hudson
No, no, I know, but like, then. It's like, now what? Holy.
- [42:57]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, yeah, but. And then some younger people come. Two years.
- [43:01]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah, sure.
- [43:01]
Dr. Nadine
You know, but. Yeah.
- [43:03]
Oliver Hudson
Is abuse. Is it. Is. Is physical abuse always part of this trauma bonding? No, it's not.
- [43:11]
Dr. Nadine
It's not. It's usually coercion, which is like pressuring somebody to do what they don't want to Do. So it's manipulation, gaslighting, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, lying right to somebody's face, financial abuse. So in 19, early 1970s, physical abuse became a crime. Right. So then people got smarter, I guess.
- [43:36]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:37]
Dr. Nadine
Just got smarter. Yeah.
- [43:40]
Oliver Hudson
And I know that you work primarily with. Only with women, but, you know, because I'm a man, I wonder, you know, how that role. How those roles can be flipped and reversed. What kind of man it would take to stay in something that toxic to where he is experiencing that trauma bond.
- [44:02]
Dr. Nadine
That's right.
- [44:02]
Oliver Hudson
Have you. Have you messed around with that or looked at that?
- [44:06]
Dr. Nadine
Oh, sure. Yeah. And I get so many direct messages from men, too, that resonate with what I write. And again, they're highly empathetic people that are very trusting and don't think there's evil in the world and want to love. And I think for men, it could even be harder because it might be even more shame, you know? But, yeah, it happens to men too. Sure.
- [44:30]
Oliver Hudson
I wonder if. I wonder if. And I don't even know this or not, but I was just thinking, like, you know, just how the empowerment of women, feminism, how women now are taking control, you know, they've found their centers and their power. Have we seen a decline in. In this or. Or is it sort of remained steady?
- [44:54]
Dr. Nadine
You know, it's. It. I think it's Covid. Everything got accelerated, exacerbated, because.
- [45:02]
Oliver Hudson
Okay, so you saw. You saw a spike.
- [45:04]
Dr. Nadine
It was a rise because.
- [45:05]
Oliver Hudson
Right, because people. People are just forced to be together. Right.
- [45:09]
Dr. Nadine
So we know that there was a rise in domestic violence incidences due to Covid. So you would think that it would be declining, and I think it is, to a point, but it's just still so prevalent, you know, it's still so prevalent because it's not about the woman being empowered. Right. She stays. She doesn't stay as long, but it's the pathological partner, and they don't care whether we're empowered or not.
- [45:41]
Oliver Hudson
Mm.
- [45:43]
Dr. Nadine
You know.
- [45:43]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [45:44]
Dr. Nadine
So our empowerment isn't necessarily changing their mindset and their desire to have mind control.
- [45:49]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Did your ex husband ever apologize to you?
- [45:53]
Dr. Nadine
No, not really. No.
- [45:54]
Oliver Hudson
In fact, no.
- [45:56]
Dr. Nadine
Well, that was one of my last strong moments, was after he had that whole scene ensued where I told him he has to get sober, and he got violent. We were at sushi one night, and I never forget it, and I said, you know, all that stuff that happened between us was really painful and horrible. And he was like, it wasn't that bad. And. And you know what? I didn't know the word callousness. I never, I was young and. But something inside me closed and I was like, that's it. It was a seminal moment for me.
- [46:29]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Wow. What about later on, though? What about now? You know, I mean, you do, you guys have a. You guys have a relationship. I'm sure that's.
- [46:38]
Dr. Nadine
We do, we do. You know, later on.
- [46:41]
Oliver Hudson
Not that you needed it because it feels like you've done your own. You know what I mean? Like, I don't need an apology from my dad who wasn't there. And we have reconnected, you know, and things are, things are great and we've talked it out. I don't need him to say that he's so sorry because I, I understand it and I've done the work and it's not something that's going to make me whole in any way. So. Not that you need it, but still, the idea that your ex husband wouldn't look inside, especially after sobriety, and be like, holy fuck, I was fucking nightmare and I'm so sorry I put you through this.
- [47:20]
Dr. Nadine
He has written it in letters.
- [47:21]
Oliver Hudson
Got it.
- [47:22]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. But I don't know that we had like some deep in depth conversation about it, but he definitely has written it in letters and I just chose, you know, and one thing I can say about Jordan and I, we put our kids first. You know, we're like, we're going to, you know, I moved. After I left him, I moved to California, so I was living in New York. And then I moved to California with my. My current husband, lived there and came out two years later to be with his kids in Manhattan beach, too.
- [47:53]
Oliver Hudson
Wow.
- [47:54]
Dr. Nadine
Ironically, we both live in Florida, so we follow each other around the country, I guess. But no, we made a conscious decision to be. To parent together.
- [48:04]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. That's great.
- [48:06]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. And that's great.
- [48:07]
Oliver Hudson
And there was never contentious between your new husband and Jordan?
- [48:10]
Dr. Nadine
No, they. Oh, my God, they get along so good. When I, when I first met my current husband, he said, you know, I think I'm going to take Jordan to breakfast. I was like, what? Don't do that, don't do that. And he said, I just want you to know who I am because I'm going to be around your children.
- [48:28]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [48:29]
Dr. Nadine
Ever since then, they've just respected each other.
- [48:31]
Oliver Hudson
Beautiful.
- [48:33]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. He definitely likes John more than me right now, since I started posting about him all the time.
- [48:40]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, is he ever like, Is he ever like. He's like, dad, come on, babe. Like, what the fuck?
- [48:46]
Dr. Nadine
He's like, you tell your Mother, she can't do that. I was like, tell your dad he wrote a book, he made a movie. I can make a three minute TikTok.
- [48:53]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. Good for you.
- [48:56]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah. So I think he's like, he's, he's okay with it now.
- [49:00]
Oliver Hudson
Well, it's, it's all a beautiful story at the end. I mean, it's, it's healthy. You know, I'm glad to hear that everything is, is good. The kids are good.
- [49:09]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah.
- [49:09]
Oliver Hudson
You know, you've been through what you've been through. It's created this incredible movement for you, and I'm sure you've helped a ton of women. And what's next? Just to continue on this path. Do you have anything coming up that's.
- [49:21]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, just to continue on this path. And like I said, I started this recovery community online. I wrote an online course for my book that's in the community. What's next is, first of all, just to enjoy my grandkids because they're so great.
- [49:36]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [49:37]
Dr. Nadine
And just to, just to reach more people.
- [49:39]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [49:40]
Dr. Nadine
You know, democratize what I do through the course and community and reach more people.
- [49:44]
Oliver Hudson
I love that. I love that. Because, you know, again, being in therapy, the truth of it is now, you know, there are these apps and better help and, you know, these things that are coming out that, that are allowing people don't have a ton of money to actually seek help. The problem with fucking therapy is it's so expensive and there are so many people suffering, not just women sort of who are in these, in these trauma bonding situations, but all across the board will never be able to afford the help that they need to get them better.
- [50:14]
Dr. Nadine
I know, I know. So that's why I made my community and course totally, you know, very accessible, much to the. Of my husband. But charge it up. I'm like. Because I really want to help people.
- [50:28]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah.
- [50:28]
Dr. Nadine
And. And it's great because for 1499, you can join the community.
- [50:33]
Oliver Hudson
Oh, amazing.
- [50:34]
Dr. Nadine
At 29.99, you can get the course. So it's.
- [50:37]
Oliver Hudson
Is there a website or, or how.
- [50:39]
Dr. Nadine
Does it just go to Dr. Nae.com.
- [50:42]
Oliver Hudson
Okay.
- [50:44]
Dr. Nadine
Everything there. And I have so many free resources, assessments.
- [50:48]
Oliver Hudson
Amazing.
- [50:48]
Dr. Nadine
Because this is, I guess, what I was meant to do.
- [50:51]
Oliver Hudson
Yeah. That's so great. Well, I appreciate you coming on and talking. Thank you so much.
- [50:57]
Dr. Nadine
Glad we got to do this.
- [50:59]
Oliver Hudson
I know. Do you have a. Do you have a. Do you have a podcast or.
- [51:01]
Dr. Nadine
No, I don't.
- [51:03]
Oliver Hudson
Okay, maybe that's next. I know there's a. I know there's 10 billion of them. But, like, maybe, maybe that's next.
- [51:10]
Dr. Nadine
Yeah, no, I think I'm good.
- [51:12]
Oliver Hudson
Okay.
- [51:13]
Dr. Nadine
And getting to meet, you know, wonderful people like you. So thank you so much.
- [51:16]
Oliver Hudson
I appreciate that. Thank you.
- [51:18]
Dr. Nadine
All right, take care.
- [51:19]
Oliver Hudson
Take care. See you later. I will, I will, I will. Bye. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Doing good things. Doing good things. I feel like I want to rewatch the movie now, you know, now that I like. I've spoken to her, 90% of it is on point. I haven't seen it in a while either. All right. I don't feel like doing any more talking, so I'm gonna leave. And yeah, everyone just loved me. I just. I need everyone to love me. All right, peace.
- [51:58]
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- [52:29]
California Psychics Advertiser
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- [52:58]
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- [53:22]
Walmart Advertiser
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