Saving the Best For Last with Vanessa and Chris Williams

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson Episode: Saving the Best For Last with Vanessa and Chris Williams
Release Date: April 21, 2025
Host/Authors: Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson
Guests: Vanessa Williams and Chris Williams
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Saving the Best For Last," hosts Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson welcome their guests, Vanessa and Chris Williams, to delve deep into the intricacies of sibling relationships, family dynamics, and personal growth. Vanessa and Chris, both successful in their respective fields, share personal anecdotes and insights that highlight the universal experiences of growing up with siblings.

Family Background and Musical Upbringing

Vanessa and Chris Williams discuss their unique upbringing in Westchester, New York. Both their parents were dedicated elementary school music teachers, fostering a household filled with constant music and artistic expression.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Williams [18:27]: "We were required through high school to play an instrument. Vanessa plays the French horn, which is like the hardest, and I played the oboe."

Their parents' passion for music not only influenced their careers but also shaped their interpersonal dynamics as siblings.

Individual Careers and Sibling Rivalry

The conversation shifts to their individual career paths, highlighting the inevitable sibling rivalry that arises from having a close age gap of four years. Vanessa, known for her achievements in pageantry and acting, often found herself trailblazing, leaving Chris striving to carve out his own identity.

Notable Quote:

• Vanessa Williams [23:35]: "We were never in school at the same time except elementary school, but we were always in different schools. He was the annoying tattletale until he got to college, and then we ended up getting much closer."

Chris shares his journey from aspiring lawyer to Broadway actor, emphasizing the challenges of distinguishing his achievements from Vanessa's.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Williams [44:38]: "Starring on Broadway in 'A Kiss of the Spider Woman' in 1994 was incredible. It was a defining moment where I truly felt I was paving my own road."

Dealing with Public Scrutiny and Resilience

Vanessa opens up about her tumultuous experience during her tenure as Miss America, facing both racial prejudice and intense media scrutiny. The episode explores the emotional toll of public judgment and the resilience required to overcome such challenges.

Notable Quote:

• Vanessa Williams [51:12]: "Watching comments about you on television was enormous. Breaking down the judgment was so severe. It took me years to get through it."

Chris echoes these sentiments, discussing the lasting impact of public perception on their personal and professional lives.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Williams [52:02]: "Social media is immediate. There's no race it all. It goes on fire, something somebody up, and it is on blast worldwide."

Personal Experiences and Travel Insights

The siblings share transformative travel experiences, highlighting how immersing themselves in different cultures broadened their perspectives and contributed to their personal growth.

Notable Quote:

• Vanessa Williams [06:31]: "My trip to India with my mom shifted my perspective immensely. The joy and resilience of the people there taught me so much about happiness and contentment."

Notable Quote:

• Chris Williams [10:47]: "My trip to Ghana, especially participating in the 'Last Bath,' was profoundly emotional. It connected me to my heritage in ways I never imagined."

Parenting and Handling Rebellion

Vanessa and Chris discuss their approaches to parenting, reflecting on their own rebellious experiences and how they strive to support their children while allowing them the freedom to grow independently.

Notable Quote:

• Vanessa Williams [40:24]: "We want to make sure our kids have the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them, just as we did. It's about being there for them without imposing our own fears and limitations."

Notable Quote:

• Chris Williams [41:40]: "We were always fiercely protective of each other. When my sister faced challenges, we supported her without judgment. It's about loyalty and understanding."

Final Reflections: Two-Part Questions

The episode concludes with a heartfelt segment where Vanessa and Chris answer two-part questions reflecting their desires to support and emulate each other.

1. What is one thing you would alleviate from your sibling’s life to make it smoother?

   • Chris Williams [62:58]: "I would want to alleviate Vanessa's fear of moving on. She's a big dreamer, and overcoming that fear would help her embrace new opportunities effortlessly."

   • Vanessa Williams: [Response not provided in the transcript]

2. What is something you would love to emulate more of your sibling?

   • Chris Williams [63:31]: "I would love to emulate Vanessa's resilience and her ability to lead by example. Her dedication and hard work are truly inspiring."

   • Craig Melvin [63:56]: "I would love for Vanessa to have her own Broadway show tailored just for her, showcasing her incredible talent and resilience."

Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, Vanessa and Chris Williams illustrate the complexities of sibling relationships, especially when both siblings achieve significant success. Their stories underscore the importance of individuality, resilience, and mutual support in overcoming personal and professional challenges. The episode serves as an inspiring narrative for listeners navigating their own sibling dynamics and personal growth journeys.

Final Notable Quote:

• Savannah Guthrie [40:09]: "How does one have that resilience? How do you instill it? I think it's our parents."

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Key Takeaways:

• Family Influence: Strong parental guidance, especially in artistic endeavors, can shape career paths and personal identities.
• Sibling Dynamics: Close age gaps can foster both rivalry and deep bonds, influencing each sibling's journey.
• Resilience: Overcoming public scrutiny and personal challenges requires inner strength and familial support.
• Personal Growth: Travel and diverse experiences contribute significantly to one's perspective and growth.
• Parenting: Supporting children while allowing them independence is crucial for their development.

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Highlighted Quotes:

• Vanessa Williams [03:17]: "That song takes me right back to where I was in my life and what I was going through."
• Chris Williams [27:00]: "I was always the troublemaker, always getting into some kind of fight or causing chaos."
• Craig Melvin [12:00]: "We're mutts. We're really mutts."

---

This episode of Sibling Revelry offers a profound exploration of the sibling bond, enriched by personal stories and insightful reflections from Vanessa and Chris Williams. Their journey underscores the enduring impact of family, the pursuit of individual identity, and the unwavering support that defines true sibling relationships.

Transcript

[T-Mobile Representative]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

Every morning brings a fresh new energy. And no matter what the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Melvin]

We get the best start to the day because we started together.

[Vanessa Williams]

Watch the Today show weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Craig Melvin]

All right.

[Vanessa Williams]

I just got back from shooting a movie in Toronto. Yeah, I was shooting a movie. Don't be so surprised. And I loved it, okay? Because believe it or not, I love the cold. I enjoy the cold. I'm with my son here, which is another amazing experience. We just had coffee this morning. We walked to our coffee shop, had a croissant and coffee and I cried. I had a blast experiencing the city off the set and cannot wait to go back. And if you also have some upcoming travel, you can consider hosting your home on Airbnb. Cause Airbnb has made hosting even easier with the co host feature where you can hire a co host to do the work for for you. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Hello darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series Vanderpump Villa.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Let's do this.

[Chris Williams]

Ciao. It's Daci.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Of course.

[Chris Williams]

Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the castle.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Dassi is an icon.

[Stassi Schroeder]

She's my eyes and ears.

[Chris Williams]

I love this.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Craig Melvin]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in The Castle.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Season two of Vanderpump Villa. Premier April 24th.

[Chris Williams]

Streaming on Hulu.

[Vanessa Williams]

We're leaving today and entering a world.

[Craig Melvin]

Of Cinderella, Castle, sightseeing. Tron Light Cycling.

[Vanessa Williams]

Jungle cruise.

[Craig Melvin]

Punning Pirate.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Swashbuckling.

[Craig Melvin]

Everest. Climbing. Dapper Danning. Danning. Soaring, Soaring. Fireworks show of. I'm not crying. You're crying.

[Vanessa Williams]

World of favorites.

[Craig Melvin]

For whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth.

[Vanessa Williams]

Walt Disney World Resort. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We wanted to do something that highlighted.

[Vanessa Williams]

Our relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are. A sibling rivalry.

[Savannah Guthrie]

No, no.

[Vanessa Williams]

Sibling revelry.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Don' do that with your mouth.

[Vanessa Williams]

Sibling re.

[Savannah Guthrie]

That's good.

[Vanessa Williams]

Sometimes the snow comes down in June.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Sometimes the sun goes round the moon.

[Chris Williams]

There you go. And when you thought the chance.

[Savannah Guthrie]

He can't. He can't help himself.

[Vanessa Williams]

Because 1991, that song was not. In case you need. In case you forgot. Vanessa, that was 1991. And it was such a. It's one of those memories, you know, when you hear a song and it takes you right back to where you were in your life and what you were going through and what you were feeling. That song does that for me. So.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah, that's like one of those core memory songs where it does.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, it's that. And then We Built this City on rock and roll. Those two.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, hi, guys. Welcome. Hey, it's nice to see. Where is everybody? Vanessa, you're in London, right?

[Chris Williams]

I'm in London. I got a show tonight. Yeah. So I'm doing Devil r. Prada. Across the street, the Dominion Theater.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, fun.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah. So it's been fun.

[Savannah Guthrie]

How's that going? Are you enjoying every second?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah, I mean, we've been doing it since pretty much like almost entire year. We did the workshop last January for two weeks. Then we came back and started rehearsals in London, May, June. Then we went to Plymouth June through August, and then came back end of September. So we've been running here for a while.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So you're ready for. You're ready for a vacation.

[Vanessa Williams]

And then is theater something that you've done for a long, long time?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah, yeah. I was a. I mean, I majored in musical theater in college. Then first I've done off Broadway, and that first Broadway show was 1994, so that's already. Jesus. Wow. 31 years ago, I did Kiss the Spider Woman. I've worked with Cicely Tyson and Trip to Bountiful. I did into the woods with Sondheim and James. I've done After Midnight. I just did POTUS two years ago with Leo DeLaria and Julie White and.

[Vanessa Williams]

Wow, so you're a real actor. Yeah, Kate just does rom coms and Netflix shows. And I. And I pretty much stick to Hallmark and Fox.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Chris, where are you? Are you in la?

[Craig Melvin]

I'm in la, yeah. I'm in LA right now as the moment. I'm usually. I'm going all over the place. I'm traveling a lot. So.

[Vanessa Williams]

Are you?

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, I'm in 52 countries now.

[Vanessa Williams]

Whoa.

[Craig Melvin]

I like to get around.

[Vanessa Williams]

What are you. Just for fun? Are you doing this for work?

[Craig Melvin]

Just for fun.

[Vanessa Williams]

Good for you.

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, I shot a movie in Bulgaria, which was interesting, and shot some stuff on other countries, but, yeah, I just like to see different. Like, the more I see other countries and other places, the more it gives your perspective on your own place. You know what I mean? Oh.

[Vanessa Williams]

Without it, like, people are people everywhere. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

All across the world, you know, people are crying, laughing, you know.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

So I had a trip like that, actually, with my mom. I was 19 years old and I just quit college because I didn't want to do that anymore. And she took me to. She took me to India and I was there for three weeks and experiencing sort of an entirely different civilization in my mind. And I came back with, realistically, your life isn't changed, but it does sort of shift your perspective.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And Ollie, Ollie was like the scene in White Lotus when she was sitting down and she was like, I don't know.

[Vanessa Williams]

But I just, that just, that was so funny.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I just really like air conditioning and.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was. Ollie, it was, it was incredible. And the best thing I took from it, One of the most important thing was that, you know, you, you think you're entering a world of extreme poverty, and of course you are at times, but the joy that a lot of these people had with nothing was just so incredible to see. And that was the perspective shift. It was like, wow, you are. There's so much happy and smiling and laughing. And then of course, Assadu chased me down to the Ganges and wanted to kill me because I filmed, I filmed him with a camera not understanding that, you know, he thought I was. I don't know what was happening. And, and this old Sadhu literally was screaming after me and I ran down to the Ganges and Varanasi.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I would give anything to have seen that. Chris, you just gave me an idea that. What an amazing thing to know, how many countries you've seen. I, I, now I want to go through and kind of think about. Because I love to travel so much and I've never really thought about it like that. Like, how many countries have I seen? And you just think, there was such a short time on this earth, there's so many places to see, even when you see something.

[Craig Melvin]

And like, I, I was in Spain 36 years ago and it's completely changed. You go through it again. And so you can never really get, you know, you need a sense of some countries and stuff. But, like, I've been back to Italy. I love Italy. I've been going back, you know, two, three times a year in the last. Last two years. So I really want to move there. That's like. And I. It's nice to have Vanessa as a base in. In London. So now I can. I can go from there, which is good.

[Chris Williams]

You studied there your junior year abroad when you're at Georgetown, so that gave you your Italian flavor. They lived in the. The former Rockefeller estate, looking over Florence and Fiesole. So he was like, in college.

[Vanessa Williams]

Wait a minute. How did you. How did you score that pad?

[Craig Melvin]

Georgetown. My university owns the villa. So we had 12 students there in this beautiful. It just overlooks the. The Florence. And then I remember the first time I walked into the villa, it was like 10 in the morning, 9 in the morning, and there was just a mist over all of Florence, and you could just see the dome, the Duomo. And I was like, oh, this is why the Renaissance happened here. Because that looks like a painting.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

You know, so I'm obsessed with Italy.

[Vanessa Williams]

Wow.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I, I, We're. We're Italian. We're half Italian. And when I remember, I, like, went to Sicily for the first time, and I, I was like, because we're Sicilian. And I was like, everything functions better here. My skin, my hair, my life, my personality. I belong in Italy, and I'm with you. I would love to move to Italy. I would love to. Or at least spend a lot of my year in Italy. It's like my. One of my.

[Craig Melvin]

You did the ancestry. We did the ancestry. DNA. So I'm 12%, supposedly. 12% Italian.

[Savannah Guthrie]

What.

[Vanessa Williams]

What.

[Savannah Guthrie]

What is your hair? What is everything? What's your. Is it.

[Craig Melvin]

It must be.

[Chris Williams]

It goes. It's. It's pretty complicated. I have to pull it up. Chris, you can mark time while I'm doing this. But, yeah, I mean, that's the. The two things. When you said that your trip to India changed your life. When I went to Ghana a couple of years ago, that was life changing because I got a chance to not only go into the slave trade museum of Castle, but we did this thing called the Last Bath. And the local chief came up to the women that were traveling with me and gave us, like, a laurel of fresh leaves. And we all had bowls with our Ghanaian names. Mine was Adjoa, which means born on Monday. And we took our bowls down barefoot down the path where they used to bring the slaves chained for their last bath before they trip. So it was trippy.

[Vanessa Williams]

Was that emotional?

[Chris Williams]

Oh, my God.

[T-Mobile Representative]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

Just you're sitting, go into the water and you're holding the bowl and it gives you some spirits. And he's like, just, you know, talk to your ancestors. And it was just like, thank you for making the trip to make my life possible. If you didn't survive, I wouldn't be on the other side. So it was. It was. It was incredible.

[Vanessa Williams]

I mean, did you feel. Did you feel a certain energy, like when you're. You know what I mean? Like, that's just profound, deep energy. It would seem.

[Chris Williams]

Exactly.

[Craig Melvin]

To give an idea of what our family is mixed with.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Mine is different from obviously hers, but I'm 12% Nigerian. 12 Southern Italy. 11 Ghana and Ivory Coast. 10 Banana Togo. 10 Scottish. 8% Denmark. 4% Central West Africa. 4% England. 3% Senegal. 3% Mali. 3% Yoruba land and Bantu people. 3% Spain.

[Vanessa Williams]

Wow.

[Craig Melvin]

2% Cameroon. 2% Bantu. 2% Philippines. 2% Nigerian woodlands. 1% another, like Iceland. 1% France, Wales. So it's like, very you.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So you're.

[Craig Melvin]

We got a lot of mix.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Wow.

[Craig Melvin]

We're mutts. We're really mutts. And both of our parents have brown eyes as well. So there's recessive traits on both sides.

[Chris Williams]

But our grandfather had blue eyes. Are all of my father's siblings, you know, or aunts and uncles? So it's, you know, it's the mix. 25 English, you know, and he was only. What were you? English? So it all.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

But it just shows you our American history.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. I just pulled mine up. I remember this. I'm. I'm two, two and a half percent North African.

[Craig Melvin]

Nice.

[Vanessa Williams]

I feel. Feel pretty solid about that.

[Chris Williams]

Welcome, my brother.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah. Riders. 2.6 North African. And he's. Or he's 1. 1% or them. And then he's actually 2.6% West African.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. I'm 1.3 Iranian.

[Chris Williams]

Ah.

[Craig Melvin]

Wow.

[Vanessa Williams]

I just knew it. I. I could have guessed it. I could have guessed all that.

[Savannah Guthrie]

You know, when you.

[Craig Melvin]

We.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We're actually pretty. We're kind of. We've got a.

[Craig Melvin]

We're.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We're mutts too. But. But our biggest thing is. Is Sicilian and then everything else. We're all over East Asian, North African, Middle east.

[T-Mobile Representative]

With T Mobile. No. Trendspotter has to deal with trendspotty service because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch. Now. Keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service report in 90 days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption. Required card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It is springtime and for me that means heading out on vacation with my kids and my family for spring break. And I love going to see new places. And one of the fun things about exploring new places is being able to get on my Airbnb app and see what is out there. We travel with the whole family. It's really nice to be able to all be under one roof and in a beautiful home. So if you are looking for a experience this spring, what better way than to go on Airbnb? Then on the flip side, if you are going away on spring break, maybe you should consider hosting on Airbnb because now with the co host feature you can access a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you with almost everything. So as you're vacationing at your Airbnb you could actually be making some extra cash hosting your home on Airbnb. So find a co [e-mail] host from.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Stassi Schroeder]

Hello darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series. Band a pump for let's do this.

[Chris Williams]

Ciao. It's Daci. Of course Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the castle.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Stassi is an icon.

[Stassi Schroeder]

She's my eyes and ears.

[Chris Williams]

I love this.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Craig Melvin]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in the castle.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Season 2 of Vanderpump Villa premieres April 24th.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Streaming on Hulu every morning brings a fresh new energy.

[Craig Melvin]

This is TODAY with and no matter.

[Savannah Guthrie]

What the day holds we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Melvin]

When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.

[Craig Melvin]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So from DNA to, like, family background.

[Chris Williams]

Where.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Where were you both? Where were you born? Where did you grow up?

[Craig Melvin]

So we're from Westchester, New York. Small hamlet called Millwood in the town of Newcastle, which is about 45 minutes outside the city. So it's not upstate. I don't consider it upstate. I consider Albany upstate. So we had close proximity to New York City. My. Our parents took us to Broadway shows, to museums, to all kinds of events and in the city.

[Chris Williams]

And I did live in the Bronx for a year, so I've got Bronx cred.

[Craig Melvin]

We were one of the first black families in our town, so we were the. Yeah. And when I graduated, there was 20 black kids out of 1200, so. But we didn't really know any better just because, you know, that's all I knew. All we knew.

[Vanessa Williams]

But your parents decided to settle in that town.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

They're both music teachers, elementary school music teachers. And my dad supposedly took my. Where my mom was working and where my dad was working and made a giant circle around a map, and they just started looking for places to live. We found this really great, great neighborhood. And we were there for almost 50 years, probably.

[Chris Williams]

What.

[Savannah Guthrie]

What is your age difference?

[Chris Williams]

Four years.

[Craig Melvin]

Four and a half years? Yeah. Four years.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And are you full siblings?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

God. Okay. So. So ma. And there are any other siblings?

[Chris Williams]

No.

[Craig Melvin]

Nope. They can only handle two of us.

[Vanessa Williams]

I get that. Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So when you were. So you were born, your mom and music teachers, were you immersed in music as children? Completely.

[Chris Williams]

Both our parents taught elementary music teachers. My mother was the voice teacher in Austin. My dad was the instrumental in Elmsford. So there was. There was, like, lessons going on all the time in our house. Like, my mom would be downstairs teaching somebody piano. My dad would be upstairs on the clarinet, trombone, trumpet. So constant music all the time. People coming in out of the house. And then, of course, they made us play. So I played.

[Craig Melvin]

We were required through high school to. To play an instrument. And supposedly, you know, and they. They chose. They chose the most difficult instruments. And like, Vanessa plays the French horn, which is like the. The hardest.

[Vanessa Williams]

Wow.

[Craig Melvin]

And I played the oboe, which was like Mason. We chose. I chose the oboe. I'm like, in third grade, I chose the oboe because their philosophy was if you learn something at the highest level, the hardest one, anything else after that will be easier to play.

[Vanessa Williams]

Right. You're like, dad, dad, what's an instrument that all the girls are going to like? He's like the oboe song.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So. So your dad was a horn player. Did he play any other instruments? Piano, guitar, or anything like that? Or was he just mostly saxophone, flute.

[Chris Williams]

You know, when he was brass? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Awesome.

[Craig Melvin]

You always have music.

[Vanessa Williams]

Did they play professionally before they were teachers? Is this something that they.

[Craig Melvin]

They.

[Vanessa Williams]

It was just sort of a p. Passion.

[Chris Williams]

Well, my mom definitely played piano and organ going through up the church and. And all kinds of groups. And then when. And then growing up, she used to play at church for holidays and weddings and all that kind of stuff. So very great at the piano. And dad played in the army in the bar.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. Is the army band.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah. So he was. He was in Korea for two years playing in the army band, and he used to do parades and stuff with his. His students. So we would always be dragged to the Memorial Day parade to watch his class go. And then we ended up, you know, there was a marching band in my high school, so they're also part of.

[Craig Melvin]

A choral group, a baroque choral group that we. Every Sunday night we'd have to go and they rehearse and we, you know, so we were constantly surrounded with music that's intense.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Baroque is a very.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Very intense music. Like. Right. It's all the. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williams]

Lots of pews, lots of churches. Concerts. Yes.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Wow. So you. So you guys, like, had no choice.

[Stassi Schroeder]

It was like.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It was like. It was just ingrained in you. Chris, do you still. Do. Do you still have any connection to music? Do you play or do you sing?

[Craig Melvin]

Interesting. Interestingly enough, I did a. A small little ditty of when I was in, like 22 years old. I found these cassettes that I had written like 30 years, 36 years ago that I wrote these silly songs. And Vanessa's daughter, my niece, Lion Babe, they're her and her partner. They're a very popular group. They did Coachella a couple years ago, and I found this. This tape that I did 36 years ago, and I was like, oh, this is pretty good. And so I gave it to them, and they're like, oh, Chris, this is good. And they just remade it.

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Melvin]

And they've been playing it in the club. So that's my. My latest year. So the. And Lucas is a dj, so he's been playing. Playing the song in the club. And this is getting a response. Oh, that's my, like, recent connection to music.

[Chris Williams]

But what's the name of the song?

[Craig Melvin]

It's called Physical. Physical. It's a really silly. Well, it's. Yeah, it's a nice little dance tune. It's fun. It's fun.

[Savannah Guthrie]

That's so fun.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, but I play. I mean, I play the saxophone like once a year. I just take it out just to try to play something. And you gotta really. You gotta. Gotta really keep up with it, you know?

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, I'm sure. I. I have a female saxophonist in my. Her name is Rachel Mazer. She's amazing. And. And I, I love the saxophone. It's like I. I feel like it's one of those instruments that when you hear it, when it's done right, especially in recording that it just, like, it's. It's just one of those instruments that just ends up standing out. Like the great saxophone solos, you know, you just never forget them.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Much sexier than the oboe.

[Vanessa Williams]

No, I know, but that's what I was about to say. The saxophone can also bring back memories of, like, soft core on cinema, looking in the. Yeah. Like some, like, hazy, sort of gauzy red shoe.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Red Shoe Diaries.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So, Vanessa, when you were. Were you a good big sister or did you guys have, like, a really good relationship or was it challenging?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, I was about to ask that because four years apart is. Is an interesting gap.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

We were never in school at the same time except elementary school maybe when I was in fifth grade and you were in first. But besides that, we were always in different schools. So, you know, he was the annoying tattletale until he got to college, and then we ended up getting much closer.

[Craig Melvin]

And she was always four years ahead just to leave a trailblaze for me to go, oh, what do I have to say? Like, now what? I have to step in. Oh, your sister did this, and your sister did this. And your sister. I'm like, okay, so she had already blaze through middle. When she was middle school president, then I had to become middle school president. And then she went to do all this theater and. And all these accolades in high school. And I came in and I was like, okay, well, she won Miss America. Now do I have to start lifting weights?

[Vanessa Williams]

Wait a minute.

[Savannah Guthrie]

How old were you when you won Miss America, Vanessa?

[Chris Williams]

20.

[Savannah Guthrie]

20. So were you doing pageants in high school?

[Chris Williams]

No, no, I was in. I was at Syracuse majoring in musical theater and the Local board members would go and look at who's in the shows, and they kept asking me. And I was supposed to do Cyrano de Bergerac at Syracuse Stage. I got cast in it, which would have gotten me equity points. And the show got canceled and I had April free. And I said, called my mom and I'm like, think I should do this thing? She's like, is there scholarship money? Oh, yeah. I said, well, then do it. So I. My parents didn't even come up for it. One won it in April, went to States, July won that and went to Miss America. September won the whole thing. So within six months.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, my God, that's crazy.

[Chris Williams]

To London for my junior year abroad. And obviously my couldn't make it, but my roommate was ready and didn't make it to London. But Now I'm here 40 years later, you know.

[Vanessa Williams]

That's amazing. Well, my wife was Miss Teen Massachusetts. I don't want to brag, but, you know, and then she. She was runner up Teen usa, so, you know.

[Craig Melvin]

Oh, wow.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Wait, she was.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I didn't know this.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Aaron was Ms. Runner Up Teen USA.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. It was one of the reasons why I almost didn't marry her.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Is she. Do we have this footage?

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, yeah. Pictures and. Oh, it's crazy.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, how I. I am so fascinated by the pageant world because I remember being little when, when we were young. When I was little, it was like I never missed it. It was like. I mean, I watched it every single time from, you know, Miss Universe, Miss usa. I was obsessed with it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, I want to go back real quick because the four year spread, so growing up, basically, it was passing ships, kind of. He was the annoying little brother. Were you sort of on her coattails? Meaning, like you wanted recognition, you wanted her to recognize, or were you okay with sort of the power dynamic? Chris?

[Craig Melvin]

Well, it was. It was. Four years was just enough where she was like a little bit of a rebel. So I was trying to be the good boy, you know, so to speak. So I want to get more.

[Vanessa Williams]

I want to rebel.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I want to get into that.

[Craig Melvin]

She got a lot more trouble than I did.

[Vanessa Williams]

Really? But you were like class president. You were this, you were that, right? I mean, so you had a little bit of both, huh?

[Savannah Guthrie]

What kind of trouble did you get into?

[Chris Williams]

Me? Everything. Good Lord. I was. I thought you were talking when I was burning things down, like my. My reputation, you know, if my parents said, you're not allowed to go, I would sneak out and go and then just Take the heat, you know?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

I was grounded. Okay, guess what? I'm still gonna go out. I'm still gonna take the heat. And so, you know, hitch. I hitchhike. I got my stereo taken away. I had a boyfriend, and we came in late and grounded yet again. I couldn't go to the prom because I was grounded. Always in trouble.

[Craig Melvin]

Oh, about the. The pipe nest.

[Chris Williams]

Well, yeah. Smoke pot. In high school, we had a greenhouse. My dad. My parents were avid gardeners. My dad built a greenhouse downstairs, and I had a friend over, and we were smoking in the greenhouse, and I dumped the bowl in the. To get rid of it in the. And the dirt and burn it down comes into my room, like, months later, like, how dare you? You planted pot. And I was like. And I honestly did not know what he was talking about because I didn't remember jumping the plan. And I knew I wasn't stupid enough to actually play pot in.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

He's like, you planted it? And I really. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And so I again, got grounded.

[Savannah Guthrie]

You're like. And then my father became the best pot, and then he started.

[Vanessa Williams]

You dumped the bowl out, and there was seeds in the bowl, and it grew. This is back when. This is back when our weed seeds in it.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oliver decided one time to. To try to. To. He tried to plant. To. To be. Have a little green thumb. Plant some marijuana plants up in the hills. Yeah. Over by where we.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. A few weed stories. I mean, the first time I ever planted weed, they grew, like, a hundred feet tall. Didn't know what I was doing, you know, There was no trimming. There was no nothing. And then we see, like, a bug on it, and we're like, oh, we got a pesticide, and they turn, like, pink. And then we dried. And then we dried out all the leaves, stripped the leaves, and then crushed the leaves up. Not even understanding that the buds is what actually gets you high. We rolled these pesto joints, and we were giving them around, and people were coughing and throwing up, and it was a disaster. But everyone was so young. They were like, oh, that's good shit. Like, I can't believe I'm coughing this much. This is amazing. They're not getting high. They're just going to the hospital.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, my God.

[T-Mobile Representative]

With T Mobile. No. Trendspotter has to deal with Trendspotty service, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now. Keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service report in 90 days device, knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption. Required card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It is springtime and for me that means heading out on vacation with my kids and my family for spring break. And I love going to see new places. And one of the fun things about exploring new places is being able to get on my Airbnb app and see what is out there. We travel with the whole family. It's really nice to be able to all be under one roof and in a beautiful home. So if you are looking for a experience this spring, what better way than to go on Airbnb? Then on the flip side, if you are going away on spring break, maybe you should consider hosting on Airbnb because now with the co host feature you can access a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you with almost everything. So as you're vacationing at your Airbnb you could actually be making some extra cash hosting your home on Airbnb. So find a co [e-mail] host from.

[Unknown Speaker]

Prioritizing time to keep our bodies active to simply creating space to check on our well being happiness Lab listeners take their health very seriously. But when it comes to treating complex issues like heart disease, neurological disorders, or even cancer, the right care can make all the difference. That's why Cleveland Clinic has been elevating world class patient care for over a century. Whether they're raising the bar in heart care, uncovering the mysteries of the brain, or researching new treatments for cancer, Cleveland Clinic continues to redefine what's possible for every breakthrough in health for every care in the world. Explore a wide array of health and wellness information by visiting clevelandclinic.org today.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Hello darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series Band a Pumpkin Villa.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Let's do this.

[Chris Williams]

Ciao. It's Stassi.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Of course.

[Chris Williams]

Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the Castle. Dassi is an icon.

[Stassi Schroeder]

She's my eyes and ears.

[Chris Williams]

I love this.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Craig Melvin]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in the castle.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Season 2 of Vanderpump Villa premieres April 24th.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Streaming on Hulu every morning brings a fresh new Energy.

[Craig Melvin]

This is today.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And no matter what the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Melvin]

When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.

[Craig Melvin]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So you were a troublemaker. I like Ness. I like that.

[Chris Williams]

That's your family nickname, Ness. Yeah. My dad actually became famous because now I've told the story so many times. At one time, I got in trouble and he said, well, you don't deserve. I slammed the door after getting into a fight with my, my parents or my mom or something, and he came, went to the garage, came up, got his electric screwdriver and took my door off the hinges and put in the garage, like, you don't deserve to see. So.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay, great move.

[Chris Williams]

It's a great door again. And I didn't have privacy for like, at least two months. Like, literally no privacy in my room. So.

[Craig Melvin]

Oh, my God, I should have known better. And then my door got taken off after I slammed it. So then I try to put a sheet, I try to put a sheet up and like, no, you don't deserve privacy.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Wow. Well, not to get good move. Not to get all psychological, but where do you think that rebelliousness came from? You know what I mean? Do you think you were just born with that sort of piss and vinegar or was there a reason for it, you know?

[Chris Williams]

Well, I, I think, I mean, my mother and I butted heads a lot and the more I got to know her and I knew that she was at a troublemaker and an upstart and very vocal and so that fire in my belly certainly was from her.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah. Were you able to time. What's your sign?

[Chris Williams]

I'm. I, I am Pisces Sagittarian moon and a cancer rising. Venus is in Aquarius. Mars is in Leo.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, I would have thought you were a fire sign.

[Chris Williams]

Well, the, I think the, the Sagittarius moon. I love adventure or whatever and yeah, but also I, I, I'm such a mother and such a. Come, let me fix it. Okay, everybody. So that's.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I'm a cancer rising too.

[Chris Williams]

Okay.

[Craig Melvin]

Double Scorpio. Virgo rising. Moon and sun are in Scorpio.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Everybody you ever meet that's into science is like, oh, exactly.

[Vanessa Williams]

I have no clue.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Scorpio.

[Vanessa Williams]

I did my thing and I Was like, I know I'm a Virgo, but like, I'm born on a full moon. I. I'm of something rising. I don't know, maybe I'm a pale moon. I'm pale moon. I'm a pale. But wait, I want to go back. So did you witness. Did you think you saw who your mother was and be able to witness that and you took that on or. Or found that as to be a part of you?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah, I think I matched her energy.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

She came from Buffalo. She had, you know, like an urban, always high achiever and so much expectation and she wanted to get out of there on the first thing smoking as soon as she got. Went to college and married my dad that summer and got out. So, you know, it. She came from this. The streets of Buffalo, which is. Yeah, still urban, but my dad was from Long island, grew up in Oyster Bay, you know, so, you know, pick beans and farm kind of that really relaxed, chill environment. Big family, Very, very affectionate. So it was a. Thank God we had our dad to be the, The. Just the counterbalance. Yeah, because my mom, you know, didn't give physical touch, really. It's really hard for her to be loving. And I remember my dad read to us every night. And I remember having talked with my dad's like, why can't mom love me? Why can't. And he would say, it's been really tough for her. Your mom had a tough childhood. So that was, that was our balance, thank God.

[Craig Melvin]

And she was not a morning person.

[Vanessa Williams]

Right.

[Craig Melvin]

My dad was at least a morning person. So there was a great counterbalance between the two of them.

[Chris Williams]

But the more she, like, didn't trust me and was always kind of putting limitations on me, I. I broke out of it. So we were head to head for a long time.

[Vanessa Williams]

You know, it's interesting and I. And there's a reason for this sort of line of questioning because, you know, I have kids. Kate has kids and they're my. My oldest is 17. You're getting to the ages now where, you know, rebellion is natural and it's real. And then as far as parenting goes, I'm. I'm not a hip. Hypocrisy is. Is my biggest pet peeve. I don't understand it essentially. And when I look back on my childhood, I'm 15, 16, 17, and the things that I did. And then now I'm trying to parent. Do you give your children or how come your mom didn't understand who she was and use that, you know, as far as now Raising you. Meaning, oh, wait, this is who I was. How am I now? Why am I getting on these kids so hardcore?

[Chris Williams]

You know, I, I, I, I think my dad gave me the grace to be free and, and then my mother would try to counteract that. So I, I, I think, and I also think my mother wanted to protect me because she's, you know, I think she saw the lens that, oh my God, she's not gullible because my dad trusted everybody and she didn't want that, that I have from my dad to affect me. And of course I got burned because, you know, obviously, you know, that I, you know, I, I resigned from Miss America after these photos came out. And that was me trusting a local photographer who I didn't have a release from, and me being open and like, oh, I trust them. And she could see that that was a part of me that was like my dad. So it was always trying to like, you know, kind of hone and, and cut that instinct down that I had for trusting. So I think she was trying, right, Maybe.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And I think too, like, you know, especially for girls and their moms, there is that time. I think boys do the same thing, but it's a little bit different. Like we, I, I was reading this somewhere, I thought it was really interesting. But we have to individuate from our mothers. And the more your mom identifies with, with you, the more you push against it. It's like, you know, and, and it's like you aren't me. I'm not. You let me, I need to go be myself, my own person. That happens in your teenage years. Like 15, 16, with girls sometimes 14. And it's really intense, I think much more intense than it is for the boys and their fathers. And, and, and the more your mom tries to hold on, I think, or any mother tries to hold on really tight, you're, it's like you're just gonna be, you're in for it. Like, you kind of gotta let your girls go and make their mistakes, you know, and be there for them when they make the mistake, you know, and it's such a hard thing because, you know, it's like, like they say that there was this great research done that if your kids aren't doing that, then they're not following, like the actual nature of how we're supposed to be growing and individuating because you want your kids to push you away. That's sort of like what we're meant to do to survive, you know, how.

[Vanessa Williams]

Did you, how do you, with your Children, you know, watching them grow up and go through their sort of rebellious nature, if they had one. How did. How are you different in the way that you handled that, you know, from your mother, maybe?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah. I think my mom was so concerned about what everybody was going to think about her and us as a family, so we had to keep it up here, the status here, keep it, you know, Got it. Every time there was some scandal or any kind of, you know, you know, not a perfect picture that she come in and attack my kids. I mean, you know, I've got four. Three from my first husband and second from Rick Fox, who, you know, so has two parents that are in the. In the media, you know, so we wanted to make sure that she had the freedom to make mistakes and we'd be there to support her. Who cares about everybody else? Don't read any comments. So it was much more. We weren't trying to isolate her, but it was like, who cares? We'll handle it. You know, it's not that big of a deal. And don't try to even replicate anything that we've done. My eldest kind of felt. I mean, she went to a different school because all my kids actually moved back to my hometown, so they all went to my school. So she had a hard time kind of being. She was the first in trying to being her own. Her own entity. So she ended up leaving school and going to Sacred Heart for a couple years and she went to boarding school just so she could have her own identity. And nobody knew who she was, but the other kids were. Were fine.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. And then, Chris, what about you? I mean, how was it a different experience? Because Kate and I've been doing this for years now, and it's so interesting with age dynamic and parents and perception and, you know, Vanessa might have one idea of how her parents were, and then you might have another. And we've seen that. That across all siblings, you know.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. I think, well, since we were, you know, exactly four years apart, the. It was hard to see such a. Such a trailblaze that she was. She was planing through to try to figure out what my legacy was going to be. So I went to. I was actually going to be. I wanted to be a sports broadcaster. So I wanted to go to the best school in the country, which was Syracuse, which was Newhouse School, which is, you know, I think the gumballs went there. Brian. Bob Costas. Anyway, and I did not go specifically because I couldn't do another four years of being her brother and not having my own identity. So I went to a complete different direction. Went to Georgetown, and it's got a liberal arts degree. And I was going to go to law school and I was going to be a lawyer and, you know, took the LSATs and was going to defer a year to go to Georgetown Law School. And I actually, two weeks after I graduated from Georgetown, I drove out. Drove out to LA and I stayed with. Stay with her. And I, I did. I knew I. I mean, I'm a performer. I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer. I was gonna. Then I was like, maybe I'll be an entertainment lawyer. That wasn't gonna. That wasn't happening. So I was doing the. In the record industry, doing record industry stuff at Vanessa's label and with the president and just trying to figure out what I want to do. And then I did a play when I was like 25, because everyone kept going, well, when are you gonna get to performing? When are you gonna get to acting? Because all my friends were lawyers, bankers, business, pen. So I figured, you know, that's what I was going to be as well. And there's no set stage for how to become an actor. You just have to just do it and get out there and put yourself. But so I looked at it as my grad school, and at 25, I did a show and they're like, well, when are you going to start doing this? So then I started, you know, because it was. I put myself in complete debt and credit card debt because that was my grad school. So that's how I was looking at it. And then I got a tv, I did some small things. We did Fresh Prince of Bel Air together. There's some small things here and there. And then I got a TV show on the. On the WB called the Hype. It was a sketch comedy show because I do a lot of characters and that kind of stuff. I got my cheekiness from my mom was really sharp and funny, and so then knocked out all my debt. And then after that, I got Curb your enthusiasm, the dodgeball. And then from there it was just.

[Vanessa Williams]

That's where I started on wb. That's how I got my first TV show, my guide to becoming a rock star a million years ago.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oliver actually played us the song the other day, and we're like, this is great.

[Vanessa Williams]

Excited to record six songs, sounded great. Wait, hold on. I want go real quick going back. So the trailblazing of, Of. Of Vanessa.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

Talk about sort of having to. Or the pressure of. Or the expectations that you might have Put on yourself to sort of follow in the footsteps of. Was there pain or struggle there or envy or. You know what I mean?

[Craig Melvin]

It was tough. Well, I knew she was going to win Miss America. When I was watching it, I'm like, she gonna win. Watch. Gonna win. Like, I had complete confidence. I knew she's gonna do it. So it was hard for me to even. There was this small sibling robbery, you know, before that. Once she did that, I was trying to figure out, well, what am I gonna. Where's my. My port portion in it? And since, remember, you have only one phone at the. In the. In the. In the early 80s, every phone call. I never got a phone call. I was so it was, you know, I was trying to struggle to get my own identity. So that's also why I went to Georgetown, to have a whole different experience in college. And. And so then when she started, what she was, even watching her going through all her trials and tribulations, I was in college when all this stuff went down. But, you know, as a family, we've always learned to be fiercely protective of each other, regardless of if there's rivalry or any. Bottom line is, you know, you're loyal to your family. And I got into fights when I was in college and.

[Vanessa Williams]

You did.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, I got into a couple of fights.

[Vanessa Williams]

Just people talking shit or whatever.

[Craig Melvin]

Exactly. Exactly.

[T-Mobile Representative]

With T Mobile, no trendspotter has to deal with Trendspotty service because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch. Up to 4 lines of virtual prepaid card left 15 days qualified unlock device, credit service report in 90 plus days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Hey, Ollie.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah?

[Savannah Guthrie]

Can you tell why I'm just buzzing with excitement.

[Vanessa Williams]

I'm stumped. Go ahead, tell me.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We are tasting spring. Spring has arrived.

[Vanessa Williams]

Spring break, baby.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It's spring break. Yes, but it's also, like, I'm a spring baby. April, baby. So, like, every time spring starts to happen. I do love a little weather, but, like, I start to get excited because it gets colorful and I'm going east coast to do some work.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, here's why I love spring break, because I don't care about the kids. It's my spring break. I don't have to wake up in the morning and take this to school, you know, So I like to make the best of it. I like to create new memories. Yes. For the kids, more for myself. Skiing, traveling, whatever it is.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I want to go to the beach.

[Vanessa Williams]

We go to the beach. Either way, I do Airbnb.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It's always the go to, isn't it? Like, even when you're thinking about, oh, where should I go? Like, sometimes I'll look on my Airbnb app first and be like, oh, yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

It'S a nice scroll. It's a way to dream. It's like, oh, I'm gonna go here. And then you can see what's available.

[Savannah Guthrie]

You've been a host, an Airbnb host?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes, I have some places in Albuquerque.

[Savannah Guthrie]

So did you find that challenging?

[Vanessa Williams]

No, it's the easiest thing in the world. You can also consider hosting your home on Airbnb while you're away. So, you know, I've done that with my own home to make some extra money. The best part about it is the Airbnb is a co host feature and that offers a network of very high quality local co hosts. They can do everything for you. They can create your listing, they can design and style a stay that's great for your guests. That's why I love it. You find a co [e-mail] host.

[Unknown Speaker]

From prioritizing time to keep our bodies active to simply creating space to check on our well being. Happiness Lab listeners take their health very seriously. But when it comes to treating complex issues like heart disease, neurological disorders, or even cancer, the right care can make all the difference. That's why Cleveland Clinic has been elevating world class patient care for over a century. Whether they're raising the bar in heart care, uncovering the mysteries of the brain, or researching new treatments for cancer, Cleveland Clinic continues to redefine what's possible for every breakthrough in health, for every care in the world. Explore a wide array of health and wellness information by visiting clevelandclinic.org today.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Hello, darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series Vanderpump Villa.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Let's do this.

[Chris Williams]

Ciao. It's Stassi.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Of course. Course.

[Chris Williams]

Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the Castle.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Dasi is an icon.

[Stassi Schroeder]

She's my eyes and ears.

[Chris Williams]

I love this.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Craig Melvin]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in the castle.

[Stassi Schroeder]

Season two of Vanderpump Villa premieres April 24th.

[Chris Williams]

Streaming on Hulu.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Every morning brings a fresh, new energy.

[Craig Melvin]

This is today.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And no matter what the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Melvin]

When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.

[Craig Melvin]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Vanessa, what did that feel, feel like for you at the time? Did it feel so violent? Like, was the. Was it just an incredibly violating experience?

[Chris Williams]

It was so huge that by the end it was like, who are they talking about? I mean, right. When every news station, everyone is like jumping on a plane to get. I mean, I had news crews waiting for me all over, camped out in front of my house. I had to hide at my. My lawyer's house down the street. So no one where it was. It was insane because again, there's only a few, you know, a few network shows. And so it was nuts. And then watching make comments about you on television, it was so big, it's like they don't even know who I am, you know, so it was enormous.

[Craig Melvin]

And interesting enough like, like white people did not like the fact that she was the first black Miss America. And then there's some black people that didn't say she wasn't black enough. So you could never win on, you know, you basically, you can't win. So you just have to take it and just let it go through you and. And, and persevere through it. Which you did.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah. It's like, it's like a roller coaster ride you never wanted to be asked to be on. You're like, wait a minute.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

You're just. It's like you're.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

And it negates any kind of intellect or talents that you had. So all the years, all the shows that have been previously anything, you know, any interview that I had, it didn't matter because I was a scandalized beauty queen. And to break down the judgment was so, so severe. It took me years.

[Vanessa Williams]

It did. I was about to say, how do you deal with something like that? Because at the end of the day, obviously, intellectually, we know that these people, they don't know what the. They're talking about. They can say what they want, but I know who I am. So I. All right. It's much easier said than done. So how did you.

[Craig Melvin]

I remember she was. She was 20. It's not like she's a full grown.

[Vanessa Williams]

Right.

[Craig Melvin]

She was a young, she was a young woman. Young girl.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. So you let that seep into you and then how did you sort of deal with it and how were you able to sort of get through it and finally be like, you know what?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah, just. So at 21 is when it all. I only had like a month left of appearances, so I had done 10 months of miss America. So, so the. I think I've definitely threw myself into. I'm going to prove to everybody. So I kind of committed to just you wait and see kind of attitude. And then I got harsh lessons that, you know, talent doesn't matter. You're still going to be judged and you're still going to. I got crazy, crazy offers with, you know, scripts that were horrible and, and then taking meetings with people that I knew I was, wasn't to get it, but they just want to say, oh, I took the meeting with the former Miss America. So I know Hollywood, you know, you know, all the dinner parties that people go to and all that chatter that everybody is talking about. Yeah. So I, I was the, the, the, the, the butt of all those jokes for years, but it always.

[Craig Melvin]

And my mother was, she still, she still had resentments of remembered comedians who had said something about them, like in their opening monologue, and she's like, I don't like, I don't like. So, you know, my mother remember, remembered all of everything.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I think there are certain women, like what you were sort of put through, like put through the ringer at a time when people found those things to be acceptable, which wouldn't be acceptable right now, but like, thank God you had that fire spirit that could get you through it. Because I think that, you know, sometimes I look at these young girls and it's a very different time than then. Like, you know, you had, I think you like the intensity it's, to which you experience what that, that kind of, you know, the microscope and all of the judgment and all of the, all of the being at you. I feel like young girls feel that every day on, on social media. Like they have this sense of like, you know, they can be shamed so quickly and they could be gossiped about. And one little thing goes, it's. Everything's so exposed now. But not everybody has that fire that, that spirit that can really like, push them through it. And I think when women and young girls hear, like when you went through something like that and they actually hear it, I think it's so important for, for young girls to Hear how you can get through the hardest of those kinds of moments because it's still happening on a, on a smaller scale, but like right in the, right in here, you know, and. Yeah, and you, you had that tenfold, you know, and. But somehow you were able to just power through it and, and then, and then have come through with, you know, your talent and success. It's like amazing.

[Chris Williams]

And then social media, as you said, it's immediate. Like, there's no, like, race it all. It goes on fire, something, somebody up, and it is on blast worldwide. Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

I mean, I guess if there's entered any silver lining to that, we move so quickly now. The pacing of sort of, you know, oh, my God, bang. It burns so hot and then it goes away. So it's like, all right, just ride it out and in a week you'll be done. Whereas back in the day, it was not a week. I mean, it was like months on.

[Savannah Guthrie]

End, you know, But I, but I think what we're tapping, like, what, what's so interesting is like, how does one have that resilience? Like, how do, how do you instill?

[Craig Melvin]

I think it's our parents.

[Savannah Guthrie]

That's right.

[Craig Melvin]

Our parents are. We're. We were a unit. We were a family unit where our parents really made sure that we were well rounded, focused, well read individuals so we could represent ourselves no matter what. And I think the structure of our. Because our parents were together for 46 years until my dad, My dad passed. So we had a nice, you know, base to which to go from, which the, you know, floor is from, but.

[Chris Williams]

Also a great combination of realism and love too, because even even though my mother wasn't tremendously affectionate at all, she. If anything happened, she was my biggest cheerleader. When I was going through divorces and stuff, she was like, she deserves a divorce. Listen to what she's saying. So she always stood up for me as a woman. And then my dad, when it all came crashing down, and at 21 years old and, yeah, he picked me up and. And we were still in, in hiding and stuff, and he. And he said, we were in the car and he said, well, you really blew it, Ness. And that's all. That's all he said. I said, yeah. And that was it. That was it. That was it. And then it's just like, how do we. How do we get through this together? So it was, it wasn't judgment and. How dare you? What an idiot. What were you thinking? Right? Wow.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

You blew it. Yeah, I did. Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And then from then on from that point on, did your dad. Was your dad able to sort of give you nuggets of advice, or was it just kind of like, hey, you blew it, now you gotta clean it up type vibe?

[Chris Williams]

Yeah. Surrounding us with helpful people.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

They were always there to support. So having family and friends that believe there was, like, a local. They did a local parade in front of my house, you know, saying that me. I mean, like, our little town, amazing together. So I had all that love to support.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. And then your brother. I mean, that's tough for you too, Chris. I mean, I'm not taking any experience, obviously, way gnarlier, but as the younger brother, too, having to deal with that, of course, you got in fights as. As talking to the tennis.

[Craig Melvin]

You know, going to play tennis with my friends, and then there's these cameras and everybody's watching you, and.

[Vanessa Williams]

Gnarly. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, it was. It was crazy. It was. It was nice.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, it was crazy. Did you guys have conversations at that point, you know, where you had heart to heart, or was it kind of. You separated yourself a little bit from the whole thing?

[Chris Williams]

I wish you had gotten that. I wish he had gone to Syracuse, because I was only there for. I never went back, so.

[Craig Melvin]

But your. Her legacy is so strong in so many different things. She's been so successful in so many different arenas, you know, from film to stage and tv. It's. You just have to find your light, you know, within your own. Your own being. So, you know, being in the same businesses. You know, a lot of times when I would get a role, they would say, oh, did you get it because of your sister? Or did you get, you know, So I don't know.

[Vanessa Williams]

I don't know what that feels like. But, yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

You'Re paving your own. Your own road.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oliver just hasn't gotten the roles.

[Vanessa Williams]

What do you mean?

[Chris Williams]

I'm.

[Vanessa Williams]

I'm killing it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

You're killing it. I know you are. What. What has been the most, like. Like, for both of you, you know, it's like, because the arts are mercurial, you know, when you're in it, it's just constantly moving and changing. In one minute, everything is going great, and the next minute you're like, wait, what happened? What has been, like, the most for you, defining moment in your career where you've been like, oh, I can't believe I'm here right now.

[Craig Melvin]

One thing. Let me take this natural. We did. Vanessa was nominated three times for Wilhelmina on Ugly Betty at three Emmys, and I got to be on her show playing her doppelganger. So if you're gonna have someone to do dragons and be her. The fact that we, that we got to, to act together, we did it once before or twice before. But to be able to be doing scenes and work together on that show, that was, that was one of the things for me that was really, really special that we could do that together. Mom, Mom.

[Chris Williams]

Love that.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

Kate and I haven't done that yet. I think she's a little nervous.

[Savannah Guthrie]

What about you, Vanessa?

[Chris Williams]

Probably my opening night of on Broadway. Starring in A Kiss of the spider woman in 1994. I had all my family in the, in the audience and my kids and, and my, my fellow castmates from, you know, college and high school. And knowing that you're a New York kid, taken the train in to see a Broadway show. And I always, in my high school yearbook, it says, I'll see you on Broadway. So the fact that I was like, okay, took. I had a gigantic detour. But starring on Broadway, I'm taking over from the legendary Chita Rivera, who I adored everything she ever did. And you know, she welcomed me. And I still have the stationary that she wrote said welcome to the web and the big kiss. So that legend to pass on, like, here is. Here's a great show. You've got it in great hands. Fly. That was incredible. That was.

[Craig Melvin]

And by the way, her birth announcement says, here she is, Miss America.

[Chris Williams]

No, that was the trippiest thing ever. Stop 63. Yeah. Back then they used to do like. And it was a baby carriage and says, here she is, Miss America.

[Craig Melvin]

That's crazy.

[Chris Williams]

Isn't that weird?

[Savannah Guthrie]

Oh, my God, that's so weird.

[Vanessa Williams]

That is true.

[Craig Melvin]

All the talking about how it affected me. The stuff from my senior picture.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

On for my senior picture for my yearbook in high school. Yeah. I was a, I was a really tiny kid. I put on her gown that she won Miss America and I posed in it like this. And they wouldn't let, they wouldn't let me use it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, my God. That's amazing. That's amazing.

[Savannah Guthrie]

All right, before we go, before we go, we do this thing with each other, which is a two part question for each sibling, which is if there was one thing that you could take kind of alleviate from your sibling to make you think that would make their life just a little bit smoother, a little bit better, what would that be? And then the second part of that question is, is what is the thing that you would love to emulate more of that your sibling has?

[Chris Williams]

O. I would Want to alleviate from your life the. The fear of moving on. Because I know you're a big dreamer and I know that you've got. You can be happy wherever you end up. And I know that it's scary to move and sell something. You sell your house or move on. And I know that's just. It's scary for anybody. So I want to alleviate the fear of moving on to something spectacular and new.

[Vanessa Williams]

Love that I can relate.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And then what about emulate Vanessa?

[Chris Williams]

I would want to emulate his. Chris is very gregarious. He talks to everybody. He knows everyone's first name. He gives chocolates to when he's checking into a hotel, the staff when he's in the. On the airplane, the hostess. Everybody loves Chris. He does magic tricks everywhere he goes. So he always has an audience.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Chris Williams]

So I would love. And my mother said he was the fun one, I was the serious one. He's to be more fun like Chris.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, amazing. Sounds like me.

[Craig Melvin]

I would love to. If she could have her own Broadway show that was made just for her, like that was tailor made to her where she could because she's so fucking good at what she does and to have something that's originated just for her, that's. I would love her to have that, that moment where she chooses to be able to do whatever she wants to do whenever she wants to do it and be showcased for it. I would love, love her to have that and emulate. She. I'm telling you, this woman so resilient. Her resiliency and her, you know, she works so hard at what she does and everybody, you know, talking to other people in her cast and other people that talk to her. She such a great example for being a number one on the call sheet type person that has to be worked just as hard as the person in the back. But she gives such a great example of being number one and making sure that everyone else is involved and everyone else feels included.

[Chris Williams]

It's.

[Craig Melvin]

It's pretty amazing. So also resiliency, just from all she's gone through and to where she. And where she's brought herself to is. Is pretty incredible.

[Vanessa Williams]

Beautiful. Well, thank you guys.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Thank you.

[Vanessa Williams]

Appreciate y'all. You gotta go.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

Have a good night.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Have a great show. Chris, it was so nice.

[Craig Melvin]

Good to meet you, Chris.

[Vanessa Williams]

Good talking to you.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Chris Williams]

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[Craig Melvin]

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[Vanessa Williams]

And no, those were not raisins.

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