Evolving Through The Mess ft. Brandon Kyle Goodman: “Permission to break the boxes.”

Summary

Silver Linings with The Old Gays

Episode: "Evolving Through The Mess" ft. Brandon Kyle Goodman: “Permission to break the boxes.”

Date: August 19, 2025
Host: The Old Gays (Robert Reeves, Jessay Martin, Bill Lyons, Michael "Mick" Peterson)
Special Guest: Brandon Kyle Goodman

Overview

The season one finale of Silver Linings with The Old Gays features their first-ever guest, the dynamic Brandon Kyle Goodman. Best known as a writer, comedian, activist, and host of the podcast Tell Me Something Messy, Brandon joins the Old Gays for a candid, intergenerational conversation about queerness past and present. Together, they reflect on coming out stories, chosen family, self-love, sex positivity, grieving rituals, and the evolving experience of LGBTQ+ community life.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Generational Perspectives on Queer Identity

• The Old Gays and Brandon compare Silent Generation, Boomer, and Millennial experiences:
  • Bill clarifies the "Silent Generation" vs. Boomer labels and their cultural significance.
  • Robert notes how different waves of boomers experienced big movements (civil rights, women’s, LGBTQ+ rights).
  • Brandon shares millennial hallmarks: focus on mental health and feelings, 90s nostalgia, and the embrace of singlehood.
  • They discuss the idea that generational labels are both informative and sometimes irrelevant when it comes to personal journeys.

  “I never figured out these boomers and exes and all that stuff. I’m just me.” – Mick Peterson (07:03)

2. Coming Out: Stories & Challenges

• The group shares unique coming out journeys, illustrating generational shifts:
  • Jesse’s was gradual and internal:

    “For me there was no single event or anything. It was just a very gradual natural process that took place when I was probably five…” (07:56)

  • Robert recalls coming out to his mother while high on LSD, and her wary acceptance:

    “Oh, okay, I still love you, but don’t tell your father.” (09:28)

  • Bill quips he “came out of the womb gay” but never officially told family; his sexuality was always apparent.
  • Mick narrates a supportive yet emotional coming out process with his mother, highlighting the importance of love and acceptance.
  • Brandon came out in his early 20s to his Trinidadian mother, resulting in a 15-year estrangement, and speaks to chosen family:

    “My journey has been learning to love myself regardless of whether or not my family could show up for me.” (12:28)

3. Chosen Family & Community

• Brandon and the Old Gays discuss how queer community fills familial gaps.
  • Brandon credits older generations for making out-loud living possible.

  “It would feel disrespectful…to not honor the people who have come before and who were living out loud…if I feel safe enough to do it, I should.” – Brandon (13:31)

  • Robert reflects on sharing more with chosen family than blood relatives, particularly regarding queer culture and experiences:

    “I have so little in common with [my family]...I have to relate on their level…” (24:04)

  • Bill expresses gratitude for strong blood family support, but notes he knows he is lucky. (26:06)

4. Sex, Shame, & Liberation

• The group ditches taboos, covering joyful and awkward sides of queer sexuality:
  • Brandon describes Tell Me Something Messy as “a safe space to talk about relationships, sex, and identity”—from cringe to soulful.
  • They share “messy” stories: lost butt plugs, porn, and oral sex tips (like the “BK Goodman Yawn” for a better blowjob).

    “I taught people how to give a better blowjob, which is by yawning...you suppress the gag reflex.” – Brandon (20:46)

  • Brandon’s definition of “hoe” (spelled ‘heaux’):

    “Someone who commits to the liberation of themselves and others by thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication, and compassion.” (22:24)

  • The hosts agree that sex for queer men, especially before AIDS, was equal parts connection and fun, but often began with conversation and community.

    “Sex is not just about penetration, but it’s about conversation.” – Brandon (22:40)

5. Self-Love, Worth, and Aging

• On self-acceptance and aging:
  • Jesse suggests self-love starts by recognizing uniqueness.
  • Robert:

    “I think loving yourself begins with masturbation.” (33:22)

  • Brandon adds that self-love is about embracing imperfections and past trauma, not perfection.
  • They challenge ageism, with Brandon (aged 38) declaring he feels like life is just beginning.

    “30 is when life begins…Some people may experience what looks like externally the success...but who you are as a person...you don't know...until you’re further along.” – Brandon (35:14)

  • Bill and Jesse share how their 80s are unexpectedly wonderful and fulfilling.

    "It's the best time of my life." – Bill (36:19)

6. Grief, Loss, and Rituals

• The group discusses rituals for processing grief and the importance of talking about loss:
  • Robert and Bill both use classical music, especially opera, as a grieving tool.
  • Mick describes using support groups and helping others as a way to heal after the loss of his partner.
  • Jesse shares a more analytical, problem-solving approach to grief, though admits to crying and emotional releases.

    “I try to look at what the cause of the grief as a problem to be solved…” – Jesse (44:08)

  • Brandon and Robert note the freedom (and responsibility) that can come with parent loss or estrangement—a chance for self-actualization.

    “Because I'm not...no longer a representative of the bloodline, I can kind of play and explore.” – Brandon (37:43)

7. Passing on Strength and Visibility

• Brandon asks the elders how to best protect and lift up one another today:
  • Robert stresses visibility—using your voice for those before and after.

    “A lot of people died for our freedoms…so when I say something publicly, I think of generations that are younger than me…All of that has given me the courage to join in.” (30:19)

  • Robert reminds young queers to act with courage and integrity, even at the cost of career.

    “I’d rather be true to myself and to my peers than to be fake.” (31:40)

8. Silver Linings and Queer Joy

• Brandon’s key silver lining from being queer:

  "The permission, the invitation, and the embracing of being able to be my full self...in the queer community I felt like I've been given permission to break the boxes and live, like, to build my own blueprint as opposed to following a societal one." (45:28)

• In closing, Brandon expresses gratitude to the Old Gays for their joyful, boundary-pushing presence:

  “You are healing so many people by just being.” (46:14)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On generational labels:
  “I never figured out these boomers and exes and all that stuff. I’m just me.” – Mick Peterson (07:03)
• On coming out:
  “Oh, okay, I still love you, but don’t tell your father.” – Robert Brie’s mother (09:28)
• On chosen family:
  "My journey has been learning to love myself regardless of whether or not my family could show up for me." – Brandon (12:28)
• On healing:
  “You don’t need somebody’s response to heal…you just need to say the truth of what you’re feeling…that healing has to come from you.” – Brandon quoting Lena Waithe’s therapist (15:08)
• On sex positivity:
  “Sex is not just about penetration, but it’s about conversation.” – Brandon (22:40)
• On queer aging:
  "30 is when life begins." – Robert Brie (35:14)
• On queer community:
  "In the queer community I felt like I've been given permission to break the boxes and live..." – Brandon (45:28)
• Closing gratitude:
  “You are healing so many people by just being.” – Brandon (46:14)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Generational Banter: 00:04–04:50
• Coming Out Journeys: 07:15–12:28
• Chosen Family & Parental Relationships: 12:28–14:06
• About 'Tell Me Something Messy' Podcast: 14:11–17:21
• Sexual Stories & Conversation: 17:33–24:01
• Family & Celebrity: 26:05–27:18
• Community Protection & Activism: 29:54–32:17
• Self-Love & Aging: 32:47–36:14
• Grief & Rituals: 36:55–45:19
• Silver Linings Reflection: 45:21–46:14
• Brandon’s Closing Gratitude: 46:14–47:00

---

Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is a blend of raucous humor, moving vulnerability, and insightful wisdom. The Old Gays and Brandon riff off each other with honesty and warmth, creating a unique space where taboo topics—from butt plugs to grieving rituals—are welcomed with laughter and loving curiosity. The tone is playful, frank, affirming, and deeply rooted in lived queer experience—making this episode a touchstone for listeners seeking both entertainment and connection.

---

For new listeners:
This episode is a vivid journey across generations of queer experience, full of hilarious asides, heartfelt stories, and practical wisdom. Whether you’re wrestling with coming out, seeking community, healing from grief, or just wanting a laugh about queer sex and senior sleaze—a silver lining awaits you here.

Transcript

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Ruby.

[Bill Lyons]

I came out of the womb.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Gay sex is not just about penetration, but it's about conversation.

[Robert Brie]

I think loving yourself begins with masturbation.

[Mick Peterson]

From just beyond the lights of Los Angeles in steamy Palm Springs, California, it's Mick, Robert, Bill, Jesse, and this is.

[Robert Brie]

Silver Linings with the Old Gays.

[Jesse Martin]

So far, it's been just the four of us talking, but we think it's time we open the door to a special guest.

[Bill Lyons]

I told you, I. I don't do those kind of things anymore.

[Mick Peterson]

So who's going to be the fifth wheel on this old gay tour?

[Robert Brie]

They're half our age, so it's more like four and a half wheels.

[Bill Lyons]

I think they make up for their youth with their intelligence, talent, and bone structure.

[Mick Peterson]

That's right. For our season one finale, the Old Gays are welcoming our very first Silver Linings guest, Brandon Kyle Goodman. Brandon is a writer, actor, comedian, educator, and activist, best known for their brilliant work on the TV show Big Mouth.

[Bill Lyons]

Their heartfelt book youk Gotta Be youe.

[Robert Brie]

And their I Heart podcast series tell Me Something Messy.

[Mick Peterson]

We're thrilled to have them with us. So please welcome the fabulous Brandon Kyle Goodman.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yay.

[Mick Peterson]

Hey, Brandon.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Hi, everybody. Hi.

[Bill Lyons]

Hi.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I'm so excited to be here. How y' all doing today?

[Jesse Martin]

We're doing great.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah? Where do I find y'? All?

[Robert Brie]

Palm Springs.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Palm Springs. Is it hot?

[Jesse Martin]

Oh, yeah. Maybe 110, 115 today.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

How do y' all stay cool in that weather?

[Mick Peterson]

It's called air conditioning, honey.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Well, that's right.

[Robert Brie]

And swimming pool.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And pools.

[Jesse Martin]

We have our pools.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Mick Peterson]

Of the evening, in the evenings, and.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Any Popsicles?

[Mick Peterson]

Maybe I do.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Okay.

[Mick Peterson]

I love Popsicles. And ice cream sandwiches. It's summer.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

There we go. I love it.

[Mick Peterson]

So what's going on in la?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

LA is also hot. Not as hot as Palm Springs, but, you know, I went to the gym this morning. I had a little meditation.

[Mick Peterson]

Look at you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You know, I ate a string cheese. So I'm feeling good. I'm feeling.

[Mick Peterson]

Did you say a string cheese?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

A string cheese. Just say.

[Robert Brie]

Okay.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Just the one. Just the one to hold me over.

[Mick Peterson]

It's filling.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

O good.

[Jesse Martin]

So our conversation today has an intergenerational focus. We've covered a lot of ground on this podcast so far, and now we'd like to mingle with you about the ways things have changed or stayed the same in queer life.

[Mick Peterson]

Yes. The four of us are considered baby boomers. And, Brandon, you are a millennial, I believe.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Bill Lyons]

What's the most millennial thing about you?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I feel like what's the most millennial thing about me is probably my love of mental health and feelings and my love of living single, which is one of my favorite TV shows. So I love the 90s nostalgia. I love wearing overalls now, but I also love my mental health. That's like. That's my jam, you know, talking about our feelings.

[Bill Lyons]

Understand?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. What's the most boomer thing about y'? All?

[Jesse Martin]

Bill can be more specific, but we're not really boomers, Bill and I. Yeah.

[Bill Lyons]

Something that's not really talked about a lot is the silent generation. But Bob was born in 43, I was born in 44, and the silent generation goes from 1928 through 1945. And the silent generation was very disciplined, and it was a very strict generation. And the boomers kind of broke into it in that they started expressing their own things and not things that they were taught like in the past.

[Robert Brie]

Oh, I beg to differ.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Uh, oh, differ then.

[Robert Brie]

I'm a baby boomer. You know, there are older boomers, and then there are younger boomers. I was born in 1956, so it was probably between the two boomer generations. Remember, Barack Obama is a baby boomer. He was born at the very end. And I can see that there is a very big difference between, say, like, a Bill Clinton and a Barack Obama. You can see the difference in attitude and approach to life. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the early boomers were very much involved in civil rights protests, the beginning of the women's movement, the LGBTQ queer movement, and also just to open up the way we approach life. Boomers are, first of all, were expected to achieve a lot, but they are also the most spoiled generation. And I would say that about ourselves.

[Jesse Martin]

I also think that World War II, the end of the war, had a really big impact and shaping how many of us viewed our place in the world in a positive way, and how if we all work hard and work together, what we can achieve. And so that, I think, was instilled in many of us by our parents and by just society at the time, that it really shaped our formative years and what we chose to do later in life.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah, that's an early boomer. Okay. It's much different.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And just say, where do you fit into all this? Where do you think?

[Mick Peterson]

I don't.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You don't?

[Mick Peterson]

I just. I just am.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You just am.

[Mick Peterson]

I never figured out these boomers and exes and all that stuff. I'm just me.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. Have that relationship been just you?

[Mick Peterson]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Was it easy to carve a space out for yourselves or did you have to? I mean, obviously there was resistance, but what was your relationship to that resistance?

[Mick Peterson]

I don't remember the big issues. It's been a smooth journey because of my parents educating us on what to do, when to do, and when not to do. And then I became vocal as I became a teenager with the racial issues that were going on. I still had to stay in the closet for quite a while. So I wasn't out.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

When did everybody come out? How old were you all when you came out to ourselves or publicly? Oh, that's a great question. To yourself. And then publicly.

[Robert Brie]

Okay, yeah.

[Jesse Martin]

For me there was no single event or anything. It was just a very gradual natural process that took place when I was probably five years old. And I knew at that point in time I was different and I knew what visual matters stimulated me. I have never been to bed with a woman. I have never had the desire to.

[Robert Brie]

I think each of us has a different definition of coming out. It really wasn't until my junior year of college where I finally came out. And that's when I started doing the bars and the circuit, but also going to meetings because Minnesota is a pretty liberal state and had already developed a high level of gay organization. And in 1977 I moved to California and I went to a party with my ex and we had done lsd. And so it was a Sunday morning and it was around 2 in the afternoon and my sister called and then she put my mother on for some reason and I was still so loaded. And so I told my mother that I forgived her for all any things, any resentments that I had against her. And then I said, oh, and by the way, I'm gay.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, how did that happen?

[Robert Brie]

And she said, oh, okay, I still love you, but don't tell your father.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, wow.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah. So I thank God that I left Minnesota. That's all I say.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, that makes sense. So you could be yourself. How about you, Bill?

[Mick Peterson]

And just say, I came out at birth. I know that's right. I was cut out at birth, but I came out to myself all my life. I was never into girls, but I had to be, unfortunately, because I didn't want to hurt them, but I did. I was close to marriage but was got out of it. But I came out publicly. When was that? Oh, when I moved to LA in 82 and joined LA Gay Men's Chorus. And it's just been the journey of the choruses in that community leading me to where I am Today.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I love that.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah.

[Bill Lyons]

And, Bill, I always knew I was gay. I mean, I came out of the womb gay, and a lot of the other kids played doctor with one another, but I always avoided that situation because I didn't want anybody to know I was gay. I never came out to my family, never told them I was gay, because they just knew I was gay. But I always restrained from playing around or anything until I was 16 and a half years old and I got my driver's license, and I made a beeline right down to Laguna beach, and the rest was history.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I love it. I love it.

[Mick Peterson]

I have one more, please. I don't know how I could forget this. My mom coming out to my mom. Oh, I was. I was in a relationship already in California. And she kept saying, you know, how parents. When are you getting married? When are you getting married? I'm like, okay, girl, you don't know. So I wrote a letter and sent it to my sister and her husband, and they took the letter to my mom to read with her. And it was just amazing. She was crying and she was feeling guilty for not being able to be there for me. But I told her, I said, you were. You just didn't know it. I says, that's it. I says that you love me and accept me for who I am is all I need.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's everything.

[Mick Peterson]

After that, I could care less who knew or who didn't know.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, I mean. Yeah, moms are. I mean, I think for.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah, moms are something.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Moms are something. I'm wanting that approval or that acceptance. My mom. My mom is from Trinidad, so I'm first generation American. I came out to her when I was 20 or. No, sorry, 21 or 22.

[Robert Brie]

Very good. Very good.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. Yeah. She didn't take it well, and she. Unfortunately, we've been estranged for about 15 years now. So my journey has been learning to love myself regardless of whether or not my family could show up for me. And this is, like, where, you know, chosen family became such a huge part of my life. I remember having this moment. Cause we're, you know, I'm a PK pastor's kid. My grandmother was a minister. My mom is now a minister. And so we just kind of grew up under the scrutiny. Not the. I won't call it the scrutiny, but the. I always say, like, the Sasha and Malia Obama of church, like, you're just always being watched and how you behave. It's always reflective, of course, you know, always, Always. But I remember after I came out to my Mom. And that didn't go so well. And just like, wrestling with, is it okay to be gay? Is it okay to be queer or not? And then looking at my friends who were also queer and loving them so deeply and being like, well, if they're wonderful, I don't think they're a sin, then why would I be a sin? And that allowed me to release that shame and realize it was more my mother's journey and not mine, you know, that I get to be proud of who I am, and also because of all the people that have come before, yourselves included, who have lived out loud and made it okay. And I was saying to my friends, I don't know, it would feel disrespectful to me to not honor the people who have come before and who were living out loud and who were bold about it, to not do that. If I feel safe enough to do it, I'm in New York City. If not there, then where are you?

[Mick Peterson]

Thank you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You're out. So, you know.

[Robert Brie]

Well, Brandon, following up on that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Robert Brie]

Tell me about the podcast. Tell me something messy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, My podcast, my iHeart podcast is a safe space to talk about relationships, sex, and identity. And so we range from, you know, really wild things to really soulful things, but the point is to just have these conversations about the quiet things out loud. So to me, we are steeped in a culture that doesn't wanna talk about stuff. And everyone is moving around in their spaces thinking that they're alone. And so the intention of the podcast is that you're not alone. That, like, there are the. That happen during sex that. Or the cringe things, or the embarrassing things, the vulnerable things. There are things that happen with your family. There are things that happen at work. And here's a safe space for us to talk about it all with curiosity, communication, and compassion.

[Robert Brie]

Can you tell me what was your most memorable quiet but explosive memory from the show?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

From the show. You know, this one was from Emily Nogoski, and she wrote the book Come as yous Are. Um, and we were. You know, that book is revolutionary and just, like, incredible in terms of. Of understanding one's body and sexuality and. And what you. What the shoulds are and. And how to release all. I should do this and I should be this and just kind of exist. Uh, and she said to me, who you are as a sexual being deserves to exist. Hearing that and, like, just, like, broke me down in quite the way, in an unexpected way, because to be given that permission that who you are as a sexual person has Every right to exist and be. And then Leno waithe came on and also gave us a moment. We were talking about mothers and not having adult relationships with our mothers. And she said something to the effect that her therapist had said, which is, you don't need somebody's response to heal. This idea that, like, you know, even if a person has passed away or you're no longer in conversation, you don't need their response to heal. You just need to say the truth of what you're feeling. Whether that's to a candle that you've lit, whether that's to the stars, whether that's in a letter. But you don't need to. Their response is not going to bring you your healing. That healing has to come from you. And so those are two very incredible moments on the show. And then Katya from RuPaul's Drag Race told me about, you know, how she likes to work out with butt plugs. And then one time it fell out while she was at the gym, and she had to pick it up real fast. Cause she wasn't sure if it was, as she said, pristine. So we have the range. We have the range on the show. We talk about everything.

[Robert Brie]

Did she have to, like, run across the room to find it at the other wall?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

No, no, no, no. I think it just slipped out the shorts and it was right there. And she just grabbed in a butt pocket. Just like flying out.

[Robert Brie]

Bedding itself, too.

[Mick Peterson]

Wong fu moment.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, yes, yes. Slingshotting across the room. No, it wasn't that. It just fell on the floor. She had to grab real fast. So we talk about it all. It's just. It's a shame. Free space to have imperfect conversations that hopefully make people feel less alone.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, great. I had that, too.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Did anybody tell Jesse?

[Mick Peterson]

No, I didn't. It's a joke.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I know, I know.

[Robert Brie]

Let's go back to the subject of butt plugs.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, please.

[Robert Brie]

Did anybody talk about, like, you know, losing one up their.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I have. I did once. That's why you need a flared base. So I had a silver chrome butt plug, had a little jewel on it. It was sent to me. You know, because of the work I do, people will send me different sex things. And I was like, all right, cool, let me do this. So I, like, put it in. And I was like, cool, cool. And then I think I coughed or something, and that thing went up into my guts, and I said, this is not happening to me. This cannot happen to me, girl. And I tried to reach for it, and I could feel it but it was moving and twirling, and I couldn't get to it. And I was about to be like, I have to go to my husband and be like, hey, babe, we might have to go to the hospital. But I gave myself one more moment, and I sat on the toilet and I said, just one big push.

[Mick Peterson]

Relax, girl.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And I had that. And that thing went clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, all up in the toilet bowl. But then I told the Internet about it, and they said, girl, you need a flared base. So anyone listening, if you got a butt plug, it better have a flared base. So don't go up into your guts.

[Mick Peterson]

And make sure you kegel so you can keep that thing tight.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

There you go. Yes.

[Mick Peterson]

Grab it.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah, I had a vibrator.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And you go all the way up.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah. And, well, somebody was using it. And I gotta tell you, I have a very powerful record. And I guess I just.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's right.

[Robert Brie]

Sucked it, right? I'm just a greedy little pig.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

What's one of your favorite sex stories? Can I ask? If you want to share? No.

[Jesse Martin]

They've been buried.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

They've been buried.

[Robert Brie]

Yes. You know, the thing about. There's a lot of bad sex out there. Let's face it, folks.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Let's be honest. Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

But, you know, first of all, the only way you can improve your skills is by practicing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's like riding a bike. You just got to keep getting on it.

[Robert Brie]

You just got to keep on it, and you just got to keep riding it or, you know, take riding it or taking it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Exactly.

[Robert Brie]

And, you know, the one thing I will say is, you know, I got a lot of pointers watching porn. Porn. Porn. Porn. I got a lot of pointers watching porn.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Porn pointers.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah, porn pointers. And like, you know, you know, the way those guys. Some of those guys, you know, take it down their throats. I am just so impressed.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You said I'm a do that. It's inspired.

[Robert Brie]

It's an art. And one of the things, you know, that. That really separate us from the others, you know, the 99 percenters over there, you know, is sex is fun. And sex is. Should be unashamed and out there, you should try as many different positions and. And scenes and just to enjoy it, because sexuality is what defines us.

[Bill Lyons]

And, Brandon, speaking of that, you put a word in the dictionary, correct?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, Bill. It's an urban dictionary. The bkgy. The Brandon Kaukman. Yawn. I taught people how to give a better blowjob, which is by yawning. So that you open up the back of your throat, lift that soft palate, and then you can take it.

[Mick Peterson]

How do you yawn with your blah.

[Robert Brie]

How do you yawn? When you yawn?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

There you go, Jesse. Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

When you yawn, you suppress the gag reflex.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Uh huh, Exactly. So, yeah, it's like, it's the. When you don't yawn, it constrains the vocal cords and then you're getting, you know, you're not gonna get it all the way in there.

[Robert Brie]

Yes.

[Mick Peterson]

Where'd you be in.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Huh? Where am I being? I know.

[Robert Brie]

And you know, the best thing about it is when they think. Gets all the way down to your voice box.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's the best. There you go. There you go. Give it a battle cry on that dick. Huh?

[Mick Peterson]

Did he say the D word on the D?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

My back? Yes. No, I. You know, on my podcast, we talk a lot about. We talk about relationships, sex and identity, but I'm always talking about sex because there's so much shame around it, especially for women and queer folks, because we've been trained to find what we do as not sexy or not, or is a sin or whatever. And so just having to undo that and unpack that and then discovering that inside of learning about sex, you really just learn about who you are. So I call people on my show, we call each other hoes, spelled H, E, A U X. It's a fancy word. And my definition of it is someone who commits to the liberation of themselves and others by thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication, and compassion. And so this idea.

[Robert Brie]

Well, that's a mouthful.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It is a mouthful. And, you know, we like a mouthful. Mick, come on. I know.

[Robert Brie]

That's right. I know.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You gotta yawn, Mick, you gotta yawn.

[Robert Brie]

I know, baby.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. So just like having those conversations and creating a space to have conversations that it's not just about. I always say sex is not just about penetration, but it's about conversation. It's about intimacy, it's about pleasure, it's about, you know, curiosity. Can you be curious about what you love and what you don't love? Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

You know, I seem to remember in the days before aids, like when you would go to a bathhouse in San Francisco, you were always engaging in conversation with somebody outside the showers, and then you just saunter into a room, you know, and all of a sudden you've discovered your long lost friend.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Robert Brie]

And you know. Or your alter ego or, you know, whatever.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, I know.

[Mick Peterson]

I love.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I love a bathhouse conversation. The first time I Went to a bathhouse. That was my favorite part about it, was sitting in the Jacuzzi and just talking and, you know, like, without there having to be anything sexual, just like a bunch of men naked, having conversations about life and whatever. And then, you know, you go in the steam room and do whatever. But that the. The center of it, the core of it was actually the community, was actually the. The emotional connection. I talk about having safe sex. Safe being satisfying, affirming, freeing, and emotionally connected.

[Mick Peterson]

You better stop.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Come on. You know, listen, I came here. Come on, my brother.

[Mick Peterson]

Preach.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Pk. Yeah.

[Mick Peterson]

You know, it's still in my year.

[Robert Brie]

You know, the. The relationships that I had lasting with my gay and queer friends have always begun through a sexual encounter. And I think those are the ones that last longer. I don't know why. Maybe there's a little twinge in the heart for that person. And as long as they're alive and as you remember them. And that's special, you know, that I find now even when I do go home and visit my family, that I have so little in common with them, you know, and that I have to relate on their level because God knows, you know, they're not going to turn around and just say to me, you know, yeah, well. Yeah, how was the bath? Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I know the blood family is so interesting because I know that everyone, not everyone, but a lot of us try to hold onto it even when the blood family is not necessarily the healthiest for us, doesn't necessarily make us feel our safest or make us feel our softest. You know, if they do, wonderful. But a lot of times, you know, we talk about people going home for Thanksgiving and dreading it. You know, this generation that's, you know, our generation at Gen Z that's coming up is going, hey, if it's not a safe place, I don't necessarily owe them anything. Just because, you know, you gave birth to me and gave me a home, which wasn't my choice to be here, doesn't mean that I now have to. I owe you holidays or I owe you attention, if you are not a safe space.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You know, especially as queer folks, I think that your. Your emotional safety is of the utmost importance. And if your family, your blood is not that, then it's okay to say, you know, there's a boundary here. And like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna spend time with my chosen family and I wanna pour into the people who pour into me, regardless of if we're related, regardless of gender or sexual orientation or any of that it's like another human who's pouring into me and I'm pouring into them. That's where I wanna be.

[Mick Peterson]

Yes.

[Bill Lyons]

Well, I'm really lucky on the blood family thing because I have great support from all of my family. In fact, for the 4th of July, my cousin always throws a big family reunion. And since there had been Covid and that I hadn't been there in like five years and they all knew about the old gays, three of them asked me for selfies and two of them asked me to talk, do a video for friends of theirs who liked them. So I know I'm a very lucky guy, but I've got extremely strong blood family support.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's beautiful. And let me ask you, what is it like being a celebrity now? Like, what's it like going home and being wonderful?

[Bill Lyons]

I'm still Bill.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Okay?

[Bill Lyons]

That's how I feel. I'm still Bill.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. Chester, you said it's wonderful.

[Jesse Martin]

It's a lot of. It's a lot of fun. Almost every time you go out, somebody approaches you for some reason or another.

[Bill Lyons]

And they all want to know how we started and that kind of thing.

[Mick Peterson]

And I tell them to read the book.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's right.

[Bill Lyons]

We'll be right back after a quick break. This ad is brought to you by Vive Healthcare, the makers of Devato Dolutegravir lamivudine.

[Jesse Martin]

The life of an old gay is only about trendy dances, clapping back and being a good sugar daddy.

[Mick Peterson]

If you've done it like us, the old gays, it also means facing the daunting road to coming out in the.

[Robert Brie]

1970S and 80s and sadly, witnessing the loss of friends and loved ones to HIV over the years.

[Jesse Martin]

Thankfully, treatment has come a long way and there are more options for people with HIV to live full and healthy lives.

[Bill Lyons]

Unlike most HIV treatments that have three or four medicines, Dovato has just two medicines in one pill.

[Robert Brie]

Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Dovato is right for you.

[Mick Peterson]

No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines to help you stay undetectable than Devato.

[Pharmaceutical Ad Voice]

It is unknown if Devato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B, if you have hep B. Don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms. Stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements. Medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy, no matter who.

[Bill Lyons]

Or what you're into, own every era of your life.

[Jesse Martin]

So if you're living with hiv, do dream about tomorrow.

[Robert Brie]

Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Do Devato.

[Mick Peterson]

Visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872 to learn more. Welcome back to Silver Linings with the Old Gays.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I have two questions. One is how do you muse that we protect each other based off of having lived a life where you've had to show up for each other and where a lot of the rights that my generation has is because of the fight that your generation partook in? How do you muse that we today take care of each other and show up for each other, protect each other?

[Robert Brie]

Well, one of the things I wanted to just say in background is a lot of people died for our freedoms and I think of them. And so when I say something publicly, I think of generations that are younger than me, particularly young people between 18 and 25, especially coming out. All of that has given me the courage to join in. You know, it's so important because we have to face this intimidation and we have to stand up for who we are because, you know, there's no going back into the closet.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Right.

[Robert Brie]

The world is just too complicated and diverse and quite frankly, fragmented place.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. What I hear you saying is that the visibility is important and that so whatever you're, whether you have a big following or a small following, it's the courage to say who you are, the truth of who you are, and show up in that way. And that the other piece of it is, in terms of the activism, is that it's not just for you. It's for who's come before you and who's coming after you.

[Robert Brie]

You know, like, I can think of how many times at work I would hear a gay Slurpee or I would think, particularly I worked in television, Okay. I worked in show business as an actor. And talk about being behind the eight ball and having to do all of that stuff. And I just, in the end, refused. And I suppose that cost me a career, but I'd rather be true to myself and to my peers than to be fake.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, it cost you your career but gained you Your peace. And I don't think you can put a price on one's peace of mind and one piece of heart. You know, there's no price tag for that piece. For being able to look at yourself in the mirror and say, I know that I acted with the integrity that is aligned with the truth of who I am. That is a. That is an invaluable.

[Mick Peterson]

So it all starts with self love. It really does. Getting to that point, you know, self.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Love is something that we. I talk about often on the show and with friends. And I'm so curious your thoughts on how one loves themself. You know, how do you begin that process? Like, what is the starting place of learning to love yourself?

[Mick Peterson]

It varies.

[Jesse Martin]

I think you recognize that you are special, that you are unique. There's no other person like you and understand who you are and be the best at that image.

[Robert Brie]

I think loving yourself begins with masturbation.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's right. Incorrect.

[Robert Brie]

I mean, where else? I mean, I think, you know, I learned to love myself by pleasuring myself and realizing, you know, you're a hot gay man and I wouldn't have in any other way in this life.

[Mick Peterson]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Giving yourself pleasure, like learn. I mean, it's funny, but it's true. The masturbation and like learning how to love yourself and not being ashamed of it and giving yourself pleasure is a form of self love.

[Mick Peterson]

In the day youth, I feel like.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

With self love, I try to remind people that it doesn't have to be perfect. Sometimes I feel like the pursuit it's not. But the pursuit of self love isn't like I'm a perfect person. It's like, no, it's loving your flaws. It's loving your insecurities. It's loving the best parts of you and the scary parts of you. That to me is the journey of self love. That you're not trying to be a perfect person who is worthy of love.

[Robert Brie]

I think we compensate for our. What we feel our deficiencies are because we're queer. And so there's this kind of neuroticism that comes involved in being a perfectionist.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, yes.

[Robert Brie]

And not living or having like issues of body consciousness and stuff like that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's how we get our worth.

[Robert Brie]

Yes, yes. And I think, well, you know, so much of gay culture. Yeah. Unfortunately, is a lot about that. It is about look, and it's like talking about aging is that the fear is that once you turn 30, you disappear. And that isn't what happens. 30 is when life begins.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Robert Brie]

Oh, yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, my goodness. Yes. I'm 38 and I'm like, I'm just getting started. It's not.

[Jesse Martin]

You are.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

You're a baby.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I'm a baby. Thank you. You're a baby. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Cause I feel it. I feel like a baby. And I feel like I've just. But there was a fear in my 20s and my teenage years that, like, if I had to be at a certain point by 30, which I. And when I didn't hit that, that became scary. And then in the last few years, it's been like, oh, no, baby. Some people may experience what looks like externally the success or whatever that you're going after at a certain age, but who you are as a person. Oh, you don't know who the hell you are yet until you're. You're much further along. And that this. I'm excited about the journey. I'm excited about the 40s and the 50s and the 60s, and it gets better. Maya Angelou was like, there's her masterclass when she said the 80s. If you can make it to the 80s. The 80s are fabulous. And I really. I'm so excited.

[Robert Brie]

Is that right, Bob? Bill.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

Are you 80s?

[Jesse Martin]

Yes.

[Bill Lyons]

I never thought I'd live this long. So just being able to enjoy myself now and the freedom that I have, I mean, it's. It's. It's the best time of my life.

[Jesse Martin]

And I feel so content and like everything is almost in its place where it needs to be. And as long as there's not an external interruption, which is possible, that life's going to be nice to coast on out.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah. And I think one of the rituals of passing message is actually to go through the death of your parents. When my father died, I called a friend of mine and I rang her up in London and I told her that my father had died. And she said, oh, you're an orphan now. And she said, you know, that's not such a bad thing. And I said, why? And I said, well, you don't have anyone to answer to now. You don't have to be something you're not just to please them. You are on your own. And in so many ways, that was true. I think with both the loss of my parents, even though I grieved that, I realized that there was a certain freedom.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

There is. I have the. You know, as someone who's estranged, there's the emotional. You know, I talk about the physical passing of a parent versus the emotional passing of a parent. So I have the emotional one. And a friend of mine saw a performance of mine, and they were like, you're so free. Is it because you're not in relationship with your mother? And I never considered it that, like. Oh. Because I'm not. I'm no longer a representative of the bloodline. I can kind of play and explore.

[Robert Brie]

You can be yourself.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

And you can. It's self actualization. Yes, that's what they call it. And, you know, you just latch onto things that interest you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Robert Brie]

And you do it because they interest you and nobody else.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

And that's. That's really, I think, the first step in being an adult.

[Jesse Martin]

And that's where creativity comes from. Daring to take that step is what generates new ideas.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Can I ask, do y' all have any grieving rituals? I have been using that as a culture. We are not good at talking about aging. We're not good at talking about any kind of death, emotional, physical. And so I'm so curious about building a grief practice, because, you know, with change is grief, with growth comes grief. And so sometimes it's relationships, sometimes it's people, sometimes it's, you know, a home that you lived in. And I'm so curious if you have any thoughts on or have your own grief rituals that you've built over the years, ways in which you've allowed yourself to feel.

[Robert Brie]

I do. Yeah, I do. I use music for that. When I think about the dogs that Joel and I had raised, I have specific music that I selected for them so that whenever the music plays, and it's all usually classical music, I do cry. And I think about that. But, you know, that was really special. And I even have music associated with people. Like, after I divorced my ex, I selected a piece of music that kind of summed up the relationship. And let's just say it was French.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Lovely. How about the rest of you? Any grieving rituals or.

[Bill Lyons]

Well, I'm right along with Mick as far as that, because nothing gives me more inspiration or calms me down than classical music, especially opera. I mean, it is just. It gets right into my soul, and it makes grieving a lot, lot better for me. And I feel wonderful when it's happening.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

What particular music? Just out of.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

What's your favorite opera?

[Bill Lyons]

Tosca. Mario is sitting down and waiting for Tosca to come, and he's writing the letter. And then she comes in and it just explodes with glory. They're both talking about their love and going on after the pretended shooting and that. And it just. It just.

[Robert Brie]

It's heartbreaking, isn't It. It's heartbreaking because you know what's going to happen.

[Bill Lyons]

But it helps my grieving. You know, they're grieving in another way than I am, but it's.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It gives you permission.

[Bill Lyons]

Even. Even. I had a nervous breakdown. The only thing that helped me. I had no libido, could. Couldn't care about anything. The only thing I cared about was opera. It's what kept me going.

[Mick Peterson]

I remember when my partner passed away, it was the most confusing time of my life because I had to grow up. And I remember getting songs that I was listening, but I didn't realize I was. That would just like say something, speak to where you are, and all of a sudden you just break down crying. I've had to sit on the side of a freeway during it because I didn't know how to grieve. I thought I'd have my black leather gloves, my big hat and go, you know. But society said, no, you don't do that. It was quite a journey. I finally did go to a support group to learn how to just live. And it got me off of me and got me helping another lady who had her son's remains sitting on the fireplace or something. I told her, I says, that's just death. It's just death hanging in your house. Get it out. And we actually went out and did the ship thing with them. And she says, this is really good. Thank you. I says, yeah, it helped me too, to get through it with you.

[Robert Brie]

That reminds me of a story about funerals. This was told to me, this family. They were burying one son who had died from hiv and one of the other brothers, who was gay, came in drag.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, how neat.

[Robert Brie]

Now that's current.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That was.

[Robert Brie]

Wow.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And what a way to honor. What a way to honor.

[Robert Brie]

Yeah. What a way to honor. Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Mick Peterson]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's beautiful.

[Mick Peterson]

I bet he wore flats. Honey, it's hard to work. Stabilize.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Those heels are locked.

[Robert Brie]

I don't know, but I think he went into his mother's closet. This was a very wealthy family in Beverly Hills. And I can't say the name, but she had. She was a former model and she had an entire room. You know how those Beverly Hills dames are. They have walk in closet, you know, like Nicole Scherzer. It's all of that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Bob, do you have any grieving rituals?

[Jesse Martin]

I become very quiet, very inner focused and very analytical. And I try to look at what the cause of the grief as a problem to be solved and how that fits into a larger picture and to understand more what's happening to what has happened to this piece of that larger picture and just kind of work it out mentally until I reach a point that I'm satisfied, I've solved the problem and I can move on.

[Robert Brie]

Well, actually, he can get quite emotional, so, you know, don't let him.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

He cries. He'll cry.

[Jesse Martin]

Yes, I do cry.

[Robert Brie]

He also knocks down doors with a hammer, so just.

[Jesse Martin]

There we go.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That too. Okay, Perfect.

[Bill Lyons]

Brandon.

[Robert Brie]

Yes.

[Bill Lyons]

To wrap us up, what's been your silver lining for being a part of the. The queer community?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

The permission, the invitation, and the embracing of being able to be my full self. You know, I think that there are. As a queer person, you're really given the Runway to be and express how you want to, and that is not always true. When you're outside of the queer community. There's a lot more boxes and. And in the queer community. I felt like I've been given permission to break the boxes and live, like, to build my own blueprint as opposed to following a societal one. And so that has been a gift that I will continue to honor and cherish.

[Mick Peterson]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Robert Brie]

Thanks so much for sharing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Bye.

[Mick Peterson]

It was so wonderful meeting you. Thanks for being with us today.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Thank you for. Listen, can I say before I go that this. I was so excited to come here. I know that the videos that y' all do and the content that you create is always so fun and joyful, but it also has the greatest impact being, like, we started this conversation talking about representation. And so to be able to see the four of you, to see your friendship, means so much to me and so many people. And so thank you for being. For being out loud, for using your platform, for bringing joy to all of our hearts. It. It is just. It's really healing in a way that I won't be able to fully explain to you, and you may not fully be able to feel, but just know that you are healing so many people by just being so. Thank you.

[Mick Peterson]

Thank you.

[Bill Lyons]

Thank you, Brandon.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Keep up your work. Thank you. I will talk to you soon.

[Jesse Martin]

Bye, Brandon.

[Mick Peterson]

Goodbye.

[Robert Brie]

Bye, Brandon.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Love you, baby. Love you.

[Robert Brie]

Is this a wrap?

[Mick Peterson]

We're done.

[Jesse Martin]

It's been a lot of fun.

[Mick Peterson]

Thank you to everyone who tuned into our first season of the show.

[Bill Lyons]

Silver Linings is a production of Iheart's Ruby Studios and the Outspoken Network. We're your hosts, Bill Lyons, Robert Brie.

[Mick Peterson]

Mick Peterson, and Jesse Martin.

[Bill Lyons]

Our executive producer is Sierra Kaiser. The episode was written by Ryan Amador with post production by Eric Zeiler. Our theme music was composed by Mats Hirschenau with audio direction and design by Matt Stillo. And don't forget to rate and review the show whenever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening.

[Robert Brie]

All right, bye now.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Bye bye.

[Jesse Martin]

Bye bye bye bye.

[Pharmaceutical Ad Voice]

This ad is brought to you by Viv Healthcare, the makers of Tobato Dolutegravir Lamivudine if you're living with hiv, look ahead. Do chase a dream. Do consider how you stay undetectable. Do learn about Dovato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devato is right for you. Do find out how many medicines are in your HIV pill. Most HIV pills contain three or four. Devato is as effective with just two medicines. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Devato. Do dream about tomorrow.

It is unknown if Devato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B if you have Hep B. Don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.

Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872 to learn more.

This is an iHeart podcast.