Common Objections to Leverage Email for Sales

Summary

Simple Pin Podcast: Common Objections to Leverage Email for Sales

Host: Kate Ahl
Guest: Matt Mullen
Original Airdate: March 4, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Kate Ahl and email strategist Matt Mullen tackle the most common objections business owners have toward using email marketing for sales and growth. They explore the evolving landscape of email in 2026, the impact (and limitations) of AI, practical list-building strategies, overcoming fears of being “spammy,” unsubscribes, and the importance of authenticity. The tone is straightforward, encouraging, and sprinkled with practical analogies (expect food, football, and Disney cruise metaphors!).

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Email Isn’t Dead

[01:26-05:23]

• Email’s staying power: Despite predictions—especially from younger generations—that SMS or new tech would replace email, Matt emphasizes that email remains fundamental, especially in the business world.
• Email vs. Other Channels: Unlike social media or pins, you own your email list and can communicate directly; algorithms don’t dictate visibility.

“With email they've raised their hand and said, you know, ideally they've raised their hand and said, hey, I would love to hear from you.”
—Matt Mullen [02:38]

• Gen Z insights: Even younger users often segment their email accounts for different interests, signaling continued relevance.

2. Objection: “I Don’t Want to Seem Spammy”

[06:59-10:00]

• Spam is subjective: Frequency alone doesn’t make emails spam; lack of value does.
• Best counter: only send when you have something genuinely valuable/helpful.
• Analogy: If you need information for a Paris trip, you’ll want many detailed emails when planning.

“Spam is in the eye of the beholder. It's not based on frequency, it's based off of what value are you providing?”
—Matt Mullen [06:59]

• Sending is serving: Think of frequent, relevant emails (e.g. food creators) as ongoing service, not spam.

3. Objection: “I Don’t Know What to Offer as an Opt-In”

[10:00-16:58]

• Focus on the hook, not the format: Stop overthinking PDFs or e-books; a plain email with real value often works better.
• Target opt-ins to solve specific, urgent problems visitors/readers have at that exact moment—micro-target hooks.
• Pop-ups: Not inherently bad, only if annoying. Match the pop-up’s promise closely to why the visitor is on your site.

"Nail the hook first. Like what, what problem are you solving? 'Never miss an update' is not solving their problem. They don't care."
—Matt Mullen [16:58]

4. Objection: “I’m Not a Good Writer”

[16:58-19:00]

• People don’t read, they skim: Prioritize clarity and brevity over eloquence. Solve their problem quickly.
• Use simple language focused on moving the subscriber toward your product/content.
• Use email to “bridge” to your website, product page, or channel where deeper value lies.

"Give yourself permission to write less. Get to the point. People don’t read, they skim."
—Matt Mullen [18:29]

5. Objection: “What If People Unsubscribe?”

[19:59-22:55]

• Unsubscribes are natural—focus your energy on those excited to hear from you.
• Segmentation: Ideal for advanced users; otherwise, know your core audience and speak directly to them.
• Analogy: “He’s just not that into you”—don’t chase uninterested subscribers.

“The unsubscribes will happen naturally when people kind of check in and check out. Good, Let them go.”
—Matt Mullen [22:50]

6. How Much Time to Spend on Email

[22:55-25:30]

• Email as a long-term investment: Like eating your vegetables, it pays off over time. Most regret not starting sooner.
• Time commitment for email is similar regardless of list size; the biggest impact comes for those with smaller audiences trying to build loyalty and authority.

7. Using AI for Email Writing—Friend or Foe?

[25:30-28:58]

• AI is a tool to speed up and streamline, not replace, authentic communication.
• Best practice: Use AI to get drafts 75–80% of the way, then infuse your own voice.
• Tip: Feed your best past writing into AI (like ChatGPT or Claude) to teach it your style.

“If you're not using [AI], I think that's a huge, huge mistake. It still needs to be you. What problem are you solving?”
—Matt Mullen [27:18]

8. Strategy Trends for 2025 & Beyond

[28:58-32:38]

• More targeted lead magnets/hooks: Multiple, highly relevant opt-ins across your business, matched to moment and interests, outperform generic freebies. Seasonal/“trend-jacking” hooks work well.
• Don’t get overwhelmed: Even 4–5 targeted lead magnets—aligned with your best-performing content—is better than dozens with no real purpose.

9. Personalization & Authenticity in the AI Age

[32:38-36:26]

• Personal touch matters more, but consistency trumps long, personal stories.
• Show up more often before worrying about “telling your story.” Start small.
• Analogy: People only care about an artist’s personal details (“Taylor Swift’s cats”) after many touchpoints with their primary work.

“If you want to be personal, be more present, be there more, send. You can send more emails than you think.”
—Matt Mullen [33:19]

10. Leveraging Automations for Storytelling

[36:26-38:42]

• Forever Series/Automated Sequences: Strategically ordered welcome or story sequences ensure every subscriber gets your “greatest hits” and brand touchpoints, not just your most recent updates.
• Use automation to share your story and evergreen resources without redoing work.

11. The Value of Email over Other Platforms

[39:46-43:12]

• Email helps develop your voice and direct relationship with your audience.
• You own the channel; algorithms and platform changes don’t dictate your reach.
• Expense vs. Investment: Paid email tools are the most important investment for a business owner—email is a profit center, not a cost center.
• Social platforms are volatile; email is stable and foundational.

“Email is a profit center. Email is a brand builder. Email shares who you are with the people that you want to share with. Where else can you do that?”
—Matt Mullen [42:29]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Spam is in the eye of the beholder. It's not based on frequency, it's based off of what value are you providing?”
  —Matt Mullen [06:59]

• "Nail the hook first…'Never miss an update' is not solving their problem. They don't care."
  —Matt Mullen [16:58]

• "Give yourself permission to write less. Get to the point. People don’t read, they skim."
  —Matt Mullen [18:29]

• “The unsubscribes will happen naturally when people kind of check in and check out. Good, Let them go.”
  —Matt Mullen [22:50]

• “If you're not using [AI], I think that's a huge, huge mistake. It still needs to be you.”
  —Matt Mullen [27:18]

• "If you want to be personal, be more present, be there more, send. You can send more emails than you think."
  —Matt Mullen [33:19]

---

Favorite Email Tool Discussion

[40:54-42:26]

• Both Matt and Kate endorse Kit (formerly ConvertKit) as their preferred email provider for automation and ease of use, but Matt stresses: the best tool is the one that works for you and doesn’t create friction.

“The email platform that you get to work best for you is the one that I recommend. But it’s no secret. I do love Kit.”
—Matt Mullen [41:49]

---

Practical Takeaways

• Don’t overthink your opt-ins: focus on solving a specific, time-sensitive problem.
• Send more often than you think is “safe”—especially with real value.
• Use AI as a support tool, not a crutch; your voice still matters.
• Build multiple hooks/opt-ins across your ecosystem, but start with a few tied to your top content.
• Embrace unsubscribes as healthy list hygiene.
• Let automation tell your story to every new subscriber, not just your regular broadcasts.

---

Connect with the Guest

• Email Crush (Matt’s website)
• Email: [e-mail]

---

For more thoughtful conversations and ongoing support, Kate invites listeners to join the SPM Insiders group (details in episode description).

Transcript

[A]

Email marketing in 2026. Where is it and what are the objections that people have? I am Kate all, your host of the Simple Pen podcast, and today I am interviewing Matt Mullen. He has been doing email marketing for the last several years. He has a lot of history within it. He has a lot of experience with the clients that he's managing. I wanted to ask him what his thoughts are in 2025 and 2026 about the use of AI with email. But most importantly, what role does email play as the landscape of the online business change, as it moves, as it iterates into something new? Where is email? Is it an anchor? Is it something that's going to keep us grounded? Or is it a fool's errand? Is it not something you want to spend your time on? So I give Matt five or six objections to go through, including PDFs, opt ins, unsubscribe rates, and we even talk about his favorite email program at the end. So I hope this will inspire you to think about email marketing in 2026 and how it will really change your business for the better and that maybe it's not this huge overarching thing you need to do. Maybe it's just like a tiny little thing you need to do. So I hope you'll be encouraged by this episode. Matt Mullen, welcome to the Simple Pen podcast.

[B]

Wow. I finally made it. Dreams really can come true.

[A]

Everybody, you've arrived. Okay, so why do you spend your days and your nights talking about email marketing?

[B]

Well, number one, nobody listens to me when I tell them about my fantasy football team. That's the first reason? Yes. The second reason, I have been involved with email, well, small businesses for my entire career. So 30 plus years now. And where it's been, email has always been something that we've relied on very heavily for not just communication, but for lifeblood of sales. Prior to doing this gig, for example, I was the chief marketing officer for a daily deal website. We were one of those Groupon clones and email and affiliate were our two biggest ways that we made money. So I learned a lot in that process over time. I've just come to. It's kind of interesting. The truth is, I didn't set out to, you know, like, email is going to be my passion or my life. It's just always worked for me. And I started telling people what I was doing about seven or eight years ago and it worked for them and it worked for those, you know, for other people. And it kept working. And I think it's because a lot of people are. While we all use email, it's not the, I don't know, it's not, it's not the shiniest object when it comes to marketing because it's been around a long time. We all have, I think certain, you know, certain mindset around what email is, what it should be, what it shouldn't be, and we don't want to be those things that it shouldn't be. So if something, you know, sometimes that keeps us maybe a little bit fearful from embracing it. But I, I'm here to tell everybody that it can be your most powerful communication medium, your most powerful marketing strategy because unlike almost every other algorithm based means of growing your business, you get to send stuff out to people who want to hear it. If we put it out on social media, it may or may not be shown. If we put it, you know, if we make a pin, it may or may not show up in somebody. So with email they've raised their hand and said, you know, ideally they've raised their hand and said, hey, I would love to hear from you. And, and there's a reason that they love to hear from us. And I think that the power is in there that we forget about that. We get caught up on worrying about spam, being spammy or exactly what it should look like. And the reality is that it's a fantastic way to communicate what sets you apart, what makes you special.

[A]

Well, and here's an interesting thought too, that when you were talking about this, this brought it up for me. A couple years ago I heard a lot of people SMS is going to replace email. Email's gonna be dead, only sms. What's your thoughts on that? Because at the time it was a lot of younger people who were saying that. But then I thought, oh, everybody has to have an email. Like I don't know, my whole, my

[B]

whole career by keeps telling me, well, recently I guess keeps telling me, isn't email gonna die? It hasn't yet. I, you know, and the argument usually is, well, you know, the younger generation never uses email. They text or they snap or whatever. But the reality is once you get into the kind of the business world, into the grown up world, we all have email accounts. For practical purposes, it's just become the default thing. So for our purposes of audience growth, of brand strategy, of communicating what sets us apart, it can work really, really well. And in a way that, so with sms it's kind of like all or nothing. I have to love getting something from you on my phone. With email there's lots of different ways that you can, you know, modify the preferences or the frequency with which you send. Without getting too technical, but there's just, there's. You have, you have a lot more levers you can pull there.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. I appreciate that point because I will so fast unsubscribe from SMS text, like way faster than I will unsubscribe from an email. I mean people, Nordstrom can email me seven times a week and they're still on my list, right? But probably the moment they send me a text I'm like, ah, like, no, we're out. But again, I am a Gen Xer. I'm not a Gen Z or a millennial. But what's interesting about that too, to take, just take a sidebar, is my kids who are Gen Z actually have like three emails sometimes and they're very segmented for what they want each of those to receive. So I see that as an indicator of saying, yes, I will receive it. I just want it in a certain way when I want to read it. So I think it's further supports that evidence that like email isn't dead, it's just using it more strategically. And I think with that, one of the things that I wanted to do in my conversation with you was talk about the most common objections because I think in our current landscape there is a lot of changing and shifting and where does AI fit and all those kinds of things and what will people look to? So we talk about common objections with email, especially leveraging for sales. Whether sales could be your own products or affiliate products or even selling yourself. Here are some really great common objections that I hear currently and have heard for years. I think the number one thing is I don't want to email my audience too often. I don't want to see be seen as spam. What would you tell somebody to counter that?

[B]

Well, so spam is in the. It's in the eye of the beholder. It's not based on frequency, it's based off of what value are you providing? So if you don't want to be spammy, then make sure you're always providing value. For example, there are times when we need to get a lot of. Let's say you're planning for a trip and you're in the mode of you're going to go to Paris for the first time and you get on Rick Steves or whoever's you know, email list and they hit you at the right time with where to stay, what to eat, how to save money, what apps to take, you know, whatever those things are. That's super helpful in that time period, you wouldn't be mad to receive that, that quantity. If I, if I sign up for Nordstrom and they have a sale, I want to know when the sale is. I would not consider Nordstrom as being spammy if they said, oh, we have our semiannual sale. We don't want to send you one because we think it's too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it all comes down to it's not spam if you provide value. Now, a lot of that comes down to how did they get on your list in the first place, why are they there? And I'm sure that we'll touch on list growth as part of our conversation as well. But once they're on your list, if you have, if you're not doing Visa card giveaways, almost anybody else that's a creator has e Commerce business, they were interested in whatever solution to their problem you had at that moment. Right. The typical lead magnet is, I will give you something in exchange for your email address. They raised their hand, said, yes, I want that. Or even better, they're like, man, I love Kate so much. I'm going to sign up proactively to get on her newsletter that says, I value you and your wisdom, your product, your service, your insights. So what is it about you that extends that experience and allows you to keep serving? In my world, I've, I've adopted the phrase that sending is serving. I. One of my, my biggest jobs is I run a done for you services agency for email for food creators. Think about food. For example, we eat all the time. There's a strong likelihood I will eat multiple more times today, and I've already eaten once today. And we don't get mad at food creators for sending us recommendations of what to cook tonight or what to make, because I may not, I may not be in the mode right now. I may be traveling. Maybe we're not going out to dinner tonight. Maybe I'm sick. Maybe dinner's already taken care of. I'll just skip right over that. Like you with the Nordstrom. Right. But tomorrow you hit me up with the pineapple quinoa salmon. I'm like, wow, that's perfect for me. And, and I want it with jalapeno sauce. It's. It's just right, right there for me. So that's kind of my. As long as you're providing value, it's not spam.

[A]

Yeah. And I like that. Opening spam is in the eye of the beholder. Right. And even though we have a spam inbox or we have a spam box and oftentimes I'll go through it and I'll say no, this isn't spam, I may not read it all the time, but I, I want this in my inbox. I don't want this over in spam. So I think leading to the opt in piece, I think that's another objection for people is they get stuck, stuck in this creative kind of just not knowing what to do. And so they go, well I'll just create a PDF, right? And they start with the idea of PDF. They don't start with what's in the PDF, whether it's five recipes or whatever, or it's connected to what it is that's most talked about like on their website. So then you have this stop of like paralyzation of like I don't know what to do or I'll just throw up a PDF. So, so what would you say to somebody that is stuck in this? I keep hearing PDFs are the way to go. I don't know how to do it, I don't know how to set it up. I'm not even going to do an opt in.

[B]

Yeah, we're talking in this situation, we're talking about the form and the function of what to send versus what is the content and the heart of what you, you're going to send. If you want to grow your list, it's actually the concept is fairly simple and I think nobody out there is going to go whoa, you know, that's brilliant one. But it's your existing traffic, your existing audience is your best source of list growth. Why are they there listening to you in the first place in that moment? Now for if you're doing E commerce and you're doing lead gen, lead generation and you're trying to, that's a maybe a little bit different animal. But let's talk about your existing audience. Even if you're just starting, you still probably have some, you have your friends and neighbors or Whoever it is, that is 10 people, your 10 people or you have 10,000, you have 10 million that listen to you. Why? What problem are you solving for them? So if it is, for example, let's just use the food example. I maybe I rank number one for maple syrup, maple syrup strawberry pancakes and you land on my website. What does that person want? Do they care about, about mattmolensrecipes.com they don't care about my logo, they don't care about any of that, but what they care about is some creative form of breakfast. So what other creative forms of breakfast do I have? And how can I make this value exchange that says, hey, I got you? You know what you're looking for? You're looking for crazy breakfast. I got the craziest breakfasts of 2026. They're right here. Now, let's say they sign up for that. If I've, if I have adequately identified that, that hook, do I have to send them an ebook? Do I have to have that, you know, created through Canva, or do I have to spend a lot of time on that? Or would they be okay with a plain text email from me that says, hey, Kate, remember those crazy pancakes? I promise you, these are nuts. Here they are. It's in an email. It takes you, it takes you 30 seconds to write that thing. Now is that ideal for your brand? Maybe not. Maybe your brand is more visual. Maybe your brand is, is, is beyond that. My point though is what does that person need in that moment? Are we overthinking it with this whole PDF thing? If you can make a PDF, great. Here's. I have, I have a very strange animosity towards ebooks. I don't know why I chose them. It's them and zucchini. Those are my two mortal enemies in life. So. And again, I use ebooks, so just take it with a grain of salt. But if you, if you get an ebook, where does it. And you, you download it, where does it go? You tell. Yeah, it on here.

[A]

I know, I know. It's so frustrating. And I, when I heard you say that somewhere else too, I was like, you're right. Like, it's so annoying. I can't even find it says it goes to files. Where do you find files?

[B]

Who knows? And then you spent all this time making it perfect and looking pretty, maybe even paid a designer to do that, when really you could have crafted an email using your mailchimp, your flow desk, your kit, your mailer light, whatever program you use and had that sent. And that would have taken literally 90 seconds to do. We're overthinking this stuff. The thing to think about is the hook. Why are they there? Why are they listening to you at this conference? Why are they on this pin? Why are they, you know, on your Facebook page? What? Why are they listening to your Instagram reel?

[A]

Yeah. Do you think that that has to be. So thinking of the maple syrup strawberry pancake, does that have to be like a pop up or just a box on that particular post? Like what do you find is like the good vehicle to get that in front of people? Because pop ups annoy people. And oftentimes if I'm on my phone, especially coming from Pinterest, I get a pop up that takes the whole screen. I'm like, I can't even find the X.

[B]

Sure. The in talking about pop up specifically, there's a reason that they exist. It's because it's a pattern interrupt. And you know, e commerce people, they live and die by them in, in, you know, just in the blogging world or the creator world, you have to make a decision on the. For those reasons that you just talked about. Some people find pop ups very annoying. My answer to that is don't be annoying. My example here is my. My wife and I, we had a. For a long time we had a blog that ranked number one for Disney cruise tips.

[A]

Okay, interesting.

[B]

So when you land on Disney cruise tips, you're scrolling through 101 tips. They would get this pop up and it said what to expect on your first Disney cruise. Now think about yourself in that moment. The pop up is not sign up for my newsletter or never miss an update about Disney cruise or learn everything there is to know about Disney Cruise. We had thought through, why does somebody Google Disney cruise tips? They're probably going on a Disney cruise and it's probably their first one. Otherwise why do they need that? So when we said what to expect on your first Disney cruise, it wasn't annoying. It was actually helpful. So my answer is don't be annoying. Pop ups, embedded forms, many chat grocer's list. You know, there's all sorts of different mechanisms whereby we can, I mean, we could spend hours just talking about the different ways to get lead magnets into their hands. Certainly that is a common objection. But I guess what I'm getting at is nail the hook first. Like what, what problem are you solving? Never miss an update is not solving their problem. They don't care. They don't care.

[A]

It's true. And I think, okay, so nail the hook. That's the. It's not even getting into the technical pieces. It's like people are going way too far into the tech before they're going back to the connection with a consumer. Which I totally get that. Okay, so what if somebody comes to you and says, I am not a good writer. I. I'm an E commerce person. I' really good at creating digital or physical products. That is where I crush it. It is hard for me to get in my head, out into the Email. What am I supposed to do?

[B]

The good news here is that people don't read emails. They skim. So when you write an email, what problem are you solving? If you solve that, even if you're not a good writer, if you can solve that, what problem am I solving? Okay, I'm going to Paris for the first time. Do I need a passport? What problem are you solving there? Well, some people wonder, do you need a passport? The answer, yeah, you do. If you're coming from the United States or Canada, you need a passport. Here's where to get one. Here's a link. Here's what mine looks like done. I mean, people don't need the whole backstory about how passports were invented or your. Your. Your pre. Your poetic, you know, prose about the stamps and how cute they are in the back of the passport. They don't need any of that. So, again, should you include some of that? Maybe if you're. If that's the type of writer and creator that you are, then maybe. But if we're just focused on solving a problem, people don't read emails. I look at emails. So, again, going back to this fun device, most people, statistically speaking, are looking at them on this device. Where do we want them really to go? I want them on my product page. I want them on my YouTube channel. I want them on my blog post. That's where I've done all the work. So. So give yourself permission to write less. Get to the point. People don't read. They skim. If you just remember those things, as far as email writing, you'll be just fine.

[A]

Well, and I think that hits on a point to really think about yourself in the position of the reader, to say, like, what do you do every morning when you open up your phone and you go through your emails? How do you go through them? What do you choose to click on? How do you really resonate with that as a user? And I find sometimes we get so caught up in our marketer brain that we're like, oh, what can we do with this and this and this? And we forget you are actually somebody that's already being marketed to. So sit in that seat for a while. And that helps you understand how to connect with your audience, which is. I think sometimes we miss that because we're so in the weeds. Right? Like, we just can't see it. Okay. The unsubscribe. The fear of the unsubscribe. I've helped coach a couple nonprofits as they get their emails set up, as they get the you know, kind of their foundations. And one of the number one things. One of the nonprofits that I work with says I don't want to email too much because what if the unsubscribe rate goes up? What would you say?

[B]

There was a. Was it a movie or was it a book from several years ago? It was called he's just not that into you.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Okay, I'm. I'm going to say something. I. I don't know if I want this friend to hear it or to or not. I've got this one. I've got this one friend that I would really love to be closer with. And I feel like I'm the one that's like constantly, hey, dude, do you want to. Hey, dude. Hey. Did you see that? I feel like I'm that guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And his actions are kind of telling me because he doesn't respond, and I get my feelings hurt a little bit. You know, he's just not that into you. So it's kind of like that with email, too. We need to move on and find the people who are into us because there is that audience now. If you are habitually terrible at sending, you know, this, this. These emails that, that don't provide any value, then everybody's going to subscribe. But that's not you, is it? You're awesome. You have solutions to people's problems. Honing in on who you serve makes a big difference, too. I would. It's probably worth spending a moment on that. Segmentation is this fancy term that, that we hear a lot about. And in an ideal world, we would have really smart email segments for the beginner, for the intermediate, for the advanced, so we could send them stuff they want. And the glory of email is that you can do that if you take the time to figure that out. So if your business is advanced like that, then focus there. If you aren't advanced like that, then you may have to make a tough decision and decide, I can't be everything to everybody. And here's who I am to most people. Maybe seven years ago, maybe five years ago, we didn't need to have this conversation. But I feel today more than ever, understanding the real estate that you occupy in the mind of the recipient is crucial. If I'm sending to the Disney cruise people, I know I can picture them. I know what they look like. They're mostly moms and grandmas. They're excited to take their kids. They're Disney lovers. I can even tell you regions of the country that they live in. Mostly So I can start to figure out who that person is and I can talk about what they're going to be interested in. I also know that they're probably interested in some things about Disney parks, other Disney things from time to time, but mostly it's going to be that. So should I be doing Disney tattoos, Disney cosplay, Disney recipes, maybe Disney tattoos for the grandma. But. But for the most part, focusing in, on, on understanding your audience is probably, you know, more than half of the battle here. The unsubscribes will happen naturally when people kind of check in and check out. Good, Let them go.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I say too. Like, they're not your ideal person. They're not interested, and they just told you that and that's okay. So kind of moving past objections into, like, just one practical question before we talk about 25 and 26 and what we've seen is like, how much time would you tell someone? Or it doesn't have to be in the term of like, hours or minutes, but looking at all that we have on our plate, right, like we're writing, we're doing video, or we're podcasting or creating products, we're doing all these things. And I will say, my assumption is a lot of social media gets a lot of our time, sometimes disproportionately. So if we're going to, like, bring that back and calibrate in 2026, what would you say is an appropriate amount of time to spend on email in your work week?

[B]

Email is like eating your vegetables. No matter when you start, the more you do it and the more it's part of your diet, the healthier you're going to be long term. You'll probably live longer, be stronger, be able to bend over and pick stuff up longer. However, there's plenty of shiny. Well, there's a Cinnabon sitting there in front of me, right? That cinnamon roll is oozing, going, it looks amazing and it tastes fantastic in the moment. And so I want that right then email. What's interesting about the change that's happening in the space with AI kind of, you know, creeping in on SEO results. People's SEO results aren't working the way that they might have in the past. They're turning to me for email now. And many of those folks were having great success with, were taking big portions of their audience and having a lot more page views from email than ever before. However, what they all inevitably say is, man, I wish I had done this five years ago.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what you're doing. And here's another little secret. What I do for the blogger that has 10 million page views a month is the exact same stuff that I do for the blogger that has 10,000 page views a month. It's the same activities, it's just the lever of the scale is different on how much it impacts. But for you, it's. If you're at that 10,000 level, it's probably even more important than ever that you build an audience that is loyal and cares about you, hears your voice in the, in the emails and is, you know, you become that business, that service provider, that creator in that space for them over and over and over again. I'm not answering your question directly, but with numbers.

[A]

Yeah, no, I get it. I think I see where we're going. And actually it highlights another thing which is in this switch of AI. I think the big question is also how much does AI play into the help of writing our emails or writing emails for us? Because I see a lot of debate about that happening right now where, you know, there's the whole M. Dash thing and people are like, I know ChatGPT wrote this or whatever. And so it's. Now I see some people being fearful of using AI or losing authentic voice. What's your thoughts on AI writing emails?

[B]

It's, it's a tool like a calculator, you know. You know, you wouldn't tell a mathematician to not use a calculator. You and I have a real experience with this together. The first email that, the exchange that you and I had a couple of weeks ago, I sent a goofy response that was. It was not me, it was AI mostly with a few me dropping in, stuff like that. Yeah, hopefully you didn't think, oh, Matt Mullen's a robot, he's a. No, it was, it was a goofy response that led, I think, kind of foundational to our relationship.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

How you use it is everything. I have a James Beard award winning author. This author as one is a client, has created a tool that allows the author to, has uploaded all the books and the AI generates emails based off of the writing style from the books. From there, the creator then takes it and then modifies it and turns it into the here and the now. But it gave them 75, 80% right as a starting point. And it's fun and it's fast. Can you use AI effectively? 100%. And if you're not using it, I think that's a huge, huge mistake. It still needs to be you. What problem are you solving here's? A little tip. If you are, if you are totally new to this, take your favorite pieces of writing that you've ever done that you think is your voice and give it to Claude. Give it to ChatGPT at the highest levels. Don't be stingy. And then let it and ask it to analyze and identify all the things that make your writing your writing and see what it says. You'll be shocked to go, you know what? I do use exclamation points a lot. I can talk in the third person a lot or whatever it may be. So yeah, that was a long winded answer. I'm not scared of it. We shouldn't be. It's, it's, it's, it's all about solving your readers problems. Still being you. I think that we're all struggling with what, how AI makes us feel with that, how we use it. But, but it's there. It's certainly a tool to be used.

[A]

Yeah, I think too. I love using it for after I write. Like, I'll just get out all my thoughts. I won't have it be cohesive. And I love Claude. It's my favorite and I'll give it to it and just say, I just need this tightened up. I want to keep the same, you know, me in it. And it doesn't, it's like, oh, yeah, that sounds so much better. Like, and I just didn't get there right. It's like it took me from a C plus to an A plus. And if I didn't have that and I was still sitting in front of the computer trying to write this email, there's a chance that I might not send it because I don't feel good about it. But this allows you to feel good. Okay, so let's talk strategy. What you saw in 2025 that you were like, this worked for email.

[B]

Okay. Repeat what we said before, but it's more lead magnets. More lead magnets, more hooks. Okay. Because they're coming to you at different places at different times. Food's an easy example. Do you remember where you were 30 days ago? What you were thinking about 30 days ago as far as your recipes? Very different. We're, we're recording this in, in January. So very different in December than it is in January in terms of the types of recipes I might be interested in. Can I talk to the user in the same words and same voice and the same subject matter? No. I mean, I could, but it would be ridiculous. Christmas time is the best time to talk about Christmas cookies. Science has Proven this. And if you talk about protein stuff right now, you're going to get a much better result right now than you will any other time of the year. So what is it for you and your business? What's happening seasonally? What's happening you could do trend jacking. What's happening in the news? What's happening with your products and services? What's happening with you personally? What problem can you solve for the person who's landing on your website? If they're landing on, on a post about how you use Bitcoin in your portfolio, then maybe your lead magnet should be about Bitcoin and not about how to use Quicken. Now, I know that means it takes time. That takes time. But what we've been talking about is up to this point is giving yourself permission to make them shorter, faster, bang them out quicker. The point is find the hook first and then keep leaning into that. Find the hooks. That's where most people think that I, oh, I made this ebook and I'm done.

[A]

Right? If you want to grow, an important distinction is that it's not like you're saying create a hundred new lead magnets, but what you're saying is pull back the curtain and go, what are the things that people actually like? Maybe that's four to five posts, and maybe you have only the bandwidth to do 4 to 5. We see the same with Pinterest. People are like, I want to create 20 new pins for each, you know, blog post or maybe 50. And it's like, well, how do you know that that's worth your time? You haven't even looked at Gone and Gone. Oh, lots of people are visiting this page on my website. You're just picking one and going, oh, well, Matt said to create a bunch of lead magnets. So I'm just going to do a hundred of them. And that is not a targeted approach,

[B]

even in your own business. And I'm not picking, I'm not picking on you. I'm not analyzed your business. But let's say that I'm just, I'm just guessing here. You probably work with DIYers, crafters, lifestyle shopping experts, food experts, folks that are selling services, folks that are selling products, every one of those probably have an interest in knowing how to use Pinterest a little bit differently. And when you talk to them in their terms and their language. And the hook is you know how to make money as a food creator with Pinterest, that is going to hit me more if I'm a food creator than how to make Money with Pinterest.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Could it be the same thing? Mostly. Probably could be the same thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Usually is a lot of the same things. You swap out some words, whatever. For the most part it's the same. It could be the same concept or maybe it's totally different. Maybe the, maybe the person who is selling the, you know, the, the fidget gadget thingy online is different than the person who has sewing patterns and uses Pinterest differently. You might want to have a different lead magnet. So that's just using your, your world.

[A]

I'll take it. Okay, so 20 in 2026, the question I have about email, and it's something I've seen kind of like bubbling up, is is there more personal experience that needs to be fueled into writing? Given that we do have AI overviews, we do have AI responses and they, they, we can get information anywhere. Right. Do we have to add more of ourselves into email in 26?

[B]

I'm going to answer it carefully. The answer is yes. The answer is obviously yes. But many of the people listening to this are not anywhere close to that. Many of the people that are listening to this have not sent more than two emails this month. How the heck is anybody gonna remember who you are? Yes, let's start with, let's start with that. If you wanna be personal, be more present, be there more, send. You can send more emails than you think. I know people are gonna freak out about that, but it's true. I don't know what it is for every single niche, but we have creators that send weekly, three times a week, five times a week, daily and twice a day. I have all of those. You in your audience, people listening to us today, you're somewhere in there, maybe you haven't been sending at all. Well, if you want to be more present and more personal and you want your brand to stand out, they have to remember who the heck you are. It's a C of, I mean people are doom scrolling. They're spending, they're spending a half hour on their Instagram, they don't remember who you are. So first of all, solve more problems and you will be more personal. Now if you hate the tone that you're using, if you think that it's robotic, you know that, here's my advice on that. Just add in one sentence to whatever robotic thing you do. Just add in one sentence. Start there. It's enough. It really is enough. So many people think that they need to tell a story about their dog and about their, you know, their, you know, red Light therapy and, you know, whatever it is, but you don't have to. People just, you know that there's a human there that has expertise and the thing that they care about. Here's the example I always use. We do not care about the names of Taylor Swift's cats until we've heard blank space on the radio about 3,000 times, right? So first get your blank space equivalent out in front of them and then they'll start to care about your cats. Did that analogy. That was kind of weird.

[A]

No, that actually was, that was good. I was like, okay, we could end on that. I think what, I think there's been this shift. Well, I would say, like, especially for food creators, right? There was so much with SEO where you had to, it had to be a long post and you had to add all of it into it. And then they saw this backlash of like, I just give me your recipe, give me your jump to recipe. And so it was this like, move towards more sterile. But now I feel like there's been a lot of conversation around this whole idea of like trust, recession and founder story and all these things. I think there's a swoop to the middle ground where we can say, here's why I love Disney cruises. Like, here's a little bit of why I'm sharing this tip with you. And that's what I want to know is like, oh, there, there's that there not a 20 page thing. Just you connected with me and I go, oh, you love Disney cruises. That's awesome. I've never taken one. So you must have the tips and, or you and your wife and your family have done 25 cruises or something that qualifies for me right away that you have the experience that I want to listen to you. And that I think is the most powerful thing I think that could be added in you.

[B]

You really hit on something that I think email could serve well. Telling your story. If you want to tell your story, email is the best way to do that because you can automate it. So one of the things that I teach in my course is something called a forever series. The concept behind a forever series is that you, you've been blogging, you've been creating, you've been selling for a long time. The latest thing that you just made is the thing that we're most prone to push. It doesn't mean it's, it's statistically impossible that it's the greatest thing that you've ever made and your story gets weaved into those things. The concept behind A forever series is that. Let me share with you in an order that makes sense the whatever you need to know. The the forever series for the Disney cruise. We knew that when they were signing up for this quick start guide for the what to expect on your first Disney cruise. After they were done with that, every Sunday we sent them an email in an order that we knew that they needed. Email number one was the most powerful Disney cruise tip we ever learned. Email number two is what to pack because everybody needs to know what to pack. Email number three is how to avoid getting seasick because everybody needs to know that. Email number four is where you know what happens on the pirate island or pirate night and what happens on the private island and then where to stand for the fireworks stuff that you want to share with everybody. But we can put it in this strategic order. I don't have to rewrite it, but I can make sure that people, when they come in, they get it at the right time. This is the creativity that can come with using a platform that has automation built into it like email. You can tell your story and provide solutions and you don't have to do it over and over and over and over and over again. You hit those brand main brand points. A lot of people get hung up on like the concept of a welcome series in email.

[A]

Oh totally.

[B]

That's kind of the idea there. But that can go on and on and on. You can. If you have a favorite chocolate chip cookie recipe, you don't want to, you don't want to take the chance that people have ever miss it. So make sure that every, you know, after five weeks every, every new subscriber gets that or whatever it may be so your automations can, could solve what you're talking about as far as telling your story in as much detail as you want. Yeah.

[A]

And I'll, I'll say this and then I have one last question for you to end on. Is that email for me? When I started my business in 2014, I went straight into email and I don't know if it's because like somebody had told me and. But I realized very quickly that this was a place for me to learn my voice even before podcasting, for me to be able to write my thoughts out, figure out who I was connecting with. And I've never given it up since. It's like every Wednesday. Our newsletter has been there and it's a centering point for me to come and go. What is the conversation right now? Where are we at? But the newsletter model isn't necessarily Right. For everybody. So I think what you're saying, too, is figure out what is right based on what your audience is telling you, based on what's good, and spend some time with it. And when you do that, it's actually really fun. Like, it can be really. And I'm sure those who hate writing, who their objection is, I'm not a good writer, are going to be like, oh, my gosh. But I still think it's. It's such a good touch point with, you know, your email and your community.

[B]

It's so important for them to get to know you. It's important for them to understand what's happening with your business. I learned a little bit about what was going on with your business with the recent email that you sent out where you're talking about what you're focusing on going forward. I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have known that. I wouldn't have naturally gone to your website and tried to dissect that from the website or.

[A]

Right. Or even social media.

[B]

Yeah, I wouldn't. It wouldn't. It may or may not have shown up. I may have been in the mood to pay attention at that moment. So, you know, it's. It. It's so valuable on all of these different levels. Just stop overthinking it. If it needs to be messy and dirty, give yourself permission to allow that. If it needs to be super short and plain text, that's fine, too. Start there. It's okay. Nobody's gonna be mad at you if somebody unsubscribes. Yeah, it costs. It actually costs you less with your email provider. Yes.

[A]

You saved money. It's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so last question. This is probably like picking a favorite child. Do you have a favorite email service provider that you love? And that's not like an endorsement of Matt, but, like one that you're like, yeah, I really like using this.

[B]

Yeah, I. I don't. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm a unabashed shill for Kit, formerly Convert. Yeah. I've been using them for a long time. The reason for that is. And look, let me back up. I believe that the best platform is the one that you can get to work for you. I have plenty of clients that come to me and say, man, I've been using such and such for a long, long time, and it works great. And I'm like, we do not mess with that, all right? Because it's just gonna be more. More frustration. But to do all the cool automated stuff that I've been Talking about here, I figured out how to do it in Kit a long time ago. They keep adding features that are, you know, adjacent and helpful to what I'm doing. Unlike say mailchimp, who adds a whole bunch of features that just Frankenstein's the thing and makes it of kind confusing. Yes. So anyway, but the, the email platform that you get to work best for you is the one that, is the one that I recommend. But I do, it's, it's no secret. I'm. I do love Kit.

[A]

I do too. I think I transitioned from get response in 2016 and so you know, it's 2026, like 10 years of using this. Like, I can appreciate that Kit has like iterated over the years. And you're right, it has to work with your brain. If you go into it and you're like, I don't know where anything is. I don't know how to pull it all together and that is not the right one for you. But if you go in and you're like, oh, this makes sense, that's it. And it's hard to think about paying for it too. I know when you're a beginning creator or a seller and you're starting out and you're like, oh, this is another expense. I would say this is your most important expense. Like just do it, invest in it.

[B]

You know, I will not argue with you there. The most important expense. A lot of people, that's where they get hung up on this. They think of this as emails, a cost center. When the reality is that if you're thinking of it that way, you're thinking about email the wrong way. Emails. Email is a profit center. Email is a brand builder. Email shares who you are with the people that you want to share with. Where else can you do that? Okay, so you're killing it on TikTok. Great. For how long? I mean, I'm being a jerk now and I don't mean to be.

[A]

Nah, it's fine.

[B]

It's just we've seen this, this roller coaster. If you've been in, in this, in this space at all, you've seen this roller coaster. And again, go back to eating your vegetables. You'll feel great. It'll make you healthy. You will not be sorry.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's a great place to end. Matt, where can people connect with you?

[B]

Email crush.com is probably the best place to find my website thingy. And it's a little outdated, I'll admit, because I've been so busy serving clients. But if you have any questions, just Email me either through that site or mattmailcrush.com I'd love to hear from you and see if we can help you out.

[A]

Perfect. Thanks Matt. We appreciate all your tips and for joining me today.

[B]

Thanks so much.

[A]

Hey there. Following up here after my conversation with Matt. So I want to say two things. One, we love Kit as well. It has been my email provider, as you heard in the episode, for the last 10 years. I'm going to put a link below. But number two, if you want to have more more thoughtful discussions about Pinterest marketing, about email and Pinterest marketing, I'd love for you to join our new group, SPM Insiders. It's a very small, low monthly fee and the reason that we have this small paid group is because that's where I am sharing everything, my thoughts, articles I find, anything I'm just really frustrated with or anything I'm excited about. It's a very great curated, thoughtful discussion platform on school. I love school. If you're thinking, oh my gosh, not one more platform, don't be thinking that at all. It's actually such a useful platform. When I told my team we were going to be using it, they hard eye rolled and then the moment they got in there they were like this is amazing. So much better than Facebook has an app on your phone, on your desktop. It is such a great tool. So I hope you'll join me at SPM Insiders. You can find that by clicking on the link below and we would love to have you join us. Let us know that you made your way into the group via this episode and find the conversation thread where we talk about this episode and have more thoughtful discussion about email marketing in 2020.