← Simple Pin Podcast: Simple ways to boost your business using Pinterest
Simple Pin Podcast: Simple ways to boost your business using Pinterest
How Pinterest Views Creators and Merchants {An interview with Pinterest}
00:53:44
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- [00:00]
Kate All
Hey there, and welcome back to another episode of the Simple Pen podcast. This isn't a regular podcast. This is an episode with Pinterest. Specifically Malik Ducard, the Chief Content Officer at Pinterest. So probably, I want to say, about six to seven months ago, sometime this summer, I posted something on LinkedIn where there was this rumor happening within the community where people were getting the assumption that Pinterest was removing links from the platform. And as you can imagine, for both content creators and merchants, this was a big. Oh, my gosh, what is happening to Pinterest? Is this the end of Pinterest? And specifically, some communication had been sent that By December of 2024, links would be gone. And so I took to LinkedIn. I tagged as many people in the C suite at Pinterest as I could to say, this is a rumor going crazy. It's taking a hold within the community, and we just need clear communication. Within two hours, Malik was in my DMs and said, this is not the case. We are not getting rid of links and we want to partner with you. This was amazing, because what I have wanted for years is this connection with Pinterest, something that says, how can I help bridge the gap between what Pinterest corporate is and what these small business owners are and how. How we can work together to all amplify the voices that need to be amplified and help business owners achieve their goals? And so we began talking about having him on the podcast and having him talk about what are the visions for content creators and merchants on Pinterest? Where is Pinterest going and who is it serving? And so that's what I'm going to talk about today. It's a little bit of a longer interview than I normally do, but I think you're gonna love it. I think you're gonna enjoy it. I feel like Malik is our people, those who are content creators. He gets what it's like to be a content creator. He resonates with that, and you'll hear that in his story when he talks about that in the beginning. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. Make sure you share it with your friends. I think there's a lot of great resources and information within this episode that will support small business owners looking to use Pinterest as. As their marketing tool. In fact, you want to stay till the end when he delivers his elevator pitch as to why you should be using Pinterest. With that, let's dive into the interview.
- [02:47]
Malik Ducard
You're listening to the Simple Pen podcast, Pinterest for Business Advice that goes down smooth and easy. Here's your host, Kate All.
- [03:01]
Kate All
Malik, welcome to the Simple Pen podcast.
- [03:04]
Malik Ducard
Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here, Kate.
- [03:07]
Kate All
I am too. And I was reading through your bio and I was looking at all your extensive history, and you have previous work at YouTube, previous work at Paramount Pictures, and you've even written a children's book. And so actually, when I was reading through, I was like, oh, Malik's a content creator. He understands this. So I just want to jump off from that. Like, tell me a little bit about either you have a love of writing or content. Like, bring me up to speed with your connection with content.
- [03:38]
Malik Ducard
Sure. Well, thank you for asking. I've always loved content before I even knew that word content. You know, I love stories. I come from a family of storytellers, and I remember even going back to when I was a kid in New York, growing up in the Bronx. I would go into school with little flip books that I would animate page after page and like, I was like the guy at recess that people would come huddle around and see, like, what story Malik had today. And then when video cameras became a thing and I was able to borrow one from the school, I created videos and short films and stories and documentaries and even had a public access TV show back in my late teen, early 20s year. So I've always loved content, storytelling, storytellers, creators, makers, doers. And, you know, I consider myself like part of that crew of people. And I feel super fortunate that, like, throughout my both, like, professional personal life, I've. I've always been able to kind of stay in touch with that, stay close to that. That's what I do at Pinterest. So at Pinterest, I lead content here with. With a great team and a lot of great partners internally. And what we do is work really hard day in and day out to support content creators, merchants, publishers, also advertisers and brands who are storytellers, pinners who curate and create as well and really strive to make the platform something for them where they can turn their dreams and ideas and interests into real life. And I'm happy to, like, dive into all of that. But, yeah, for me, it goes back to the very beginning. I don't ever not remember telling stories and being a part of that.
- [06:00]
Kate All
Yeah, so the storyteller piece, really, I mean, that thread, I love the flip book, like, having that. My daughter's really into animation, so I get that. So you were at YouTube for quite a long time and then you made the Leap to Pinterest. What drew you to Pinterest? Why? Was it the next career step for you or was there? I'm, I'm gonna put some questions together here, but I would say like, what drew you? And then was there an awareness about Pinterest in this platform? And kind of, it's, it's kind of like YouTube, but it's different. So tell me a little bit about the leap.
- [06:35]
Malik Ducard
Well, you know, it's, it's so, so interesting. Like when, when I was at YouTube, I would look over the fence at, at Pinterest and, you know, see what Pinterest was doing, how proactive they were around their approaches and policies and centering, inspiration and, and, and positivity. So from a distance, it was really interesting. And when I was at YouTube and I was there long enough that I've worked in many different roles within content over the years and my past or last few years at YouTube, I focused on an area called responsibility that focused on family and kids, content and product and education, social impact, health. It was kind of like the positive corner of YouTube and I really jumped at the opportunity to move to Pinterest and to move from the positive corner of YouTube to the positive corner of the Internet. So for me, it was a really seamless transition, but also one where the idea of really having and working on and with a platform that centers inspiration, that centers actionability, that really proves a thesis that you can have focus on positive and inspiration and actionability and a great business, that the two are not at odds, that the two are actually the reason for each other. And when you look out in the social media landscape, you might not always see that at play. There are many platforms or other platforms that kind of lean a little bit more into enragement equals engagement. And that's the business model. And I love that from a Pinterest standpoint, from the very early days of how and when the company was founded to now that that centering of, you know, healthier outcomes, healthy business and, you know, individual well being has, has been something that, that, that, that's been a really strong focus and center for the company.
- [09:17]
Kate All
Yeah, I have a phrase that I use a lot here, which is the Pinner doesn't necessarily care about you, they care about themselves. And when I say that, it's a lot of this drive towards a place that allows them to dream into their own world without the input of all the exterior. And I think so many other platforms have so much coming at you from all different directions. And it's almost like Other people's stories are infusing into your life all the time, but Pinterest, you get to write your own story. So I love that you connected this with that positive place. And as an outsider, what I think I've been able to observe is that in the last couple years, especially with kind of this new development of leadership, is that it's embracing that even more. It's going back to the core to say, yeah, we want to be the positive place on the Internet. And I want to talk a little bit about that whole change in leadership a little bit, because you're a part of that in the last couple of years. I also see that this, I, I don't want to call it like the dream team. Right. But I will say what has been great is I've seen inspiration kind of rise up and this excitement for the future and going forward. Have you experienced that internally too, with kind of this really great leadership surrounding Bill Ready and what he's built?
- [10:35]
Malik Ducard
Yeah, I, I, I absolutely feel that here. And you know, it's a big reason, you know, why, why I'm here. Bill Ready is, is really, really a great leader. And, and, and I think that a lot of that, that leadership and, and what leadership is often is helping organizations and people see the potential and the greatness, you know, in organizations and like, what are your superpowers? And, and I think that with the leadership that is here, we've really gotten back to almost in some ways, like the beginning of what are the strengths? What do we have to bring to the world? And I think it's several fold. I think it goes back to centering inspiration, focusing on quality experiences. That doesn't necessarily mean long time spent on the platform, like social media, just in general is tuned for, hey, how long can I keep you on my platform? And we're not perfect as we know. And as you know, we've had times where we actually did start dialing the knobs towards time spent. And we, you know, with the leadership here, we got back to what is time well spent. And that actually might mean not only time well spent on the platform, time well spent elsewhere, time spent helping the user where a visual search engine helping the user, the pinner, get to where they want to go. Maybe the journey starts on Pinterest, but then goes to checkout on a site elsewhere or goes to more information on another site. So I think that focus of how can we be more useful to our users not in a time duration standpoint, but more in a sort of a quality of experience, a Less ephemeral experience and a more sturdy experience. Focusing on signals like saves. Like when you save something that, that, that means much more than just like a quick, you know, hit of the, like, that's something that you want to come back to, that's something that maybe you want to purchase later or an idea that means something to you. So, so that, that, that's been, you know, big area of kind of like doubling down that we've had in, in, in the past few years.
- [13:34]
Kate All
Yeah, I appreciate that too because I know when there was this movement towards more time spent on the platform, what we heard from people who were using was that sentiment of, well, I can't get to what I would like to get to. There seems to be this block in front and removing that block, I think you have that back again where it is. Oh yeah. Time spent on planning a trip or doing, taking action on a project or doing the recipe, which is the main core of the people using Pinterest is that they find these amazing ideas and then they want to take action. So I like how you frame that because it helps me teach actually these small business owners to say, don't just be thinking about getting a click or getting a session or getting whatever. Think about the person that you're engaging with and you helping them complete that project or you helping them make that purchase. That is going to be a really great purchase in their life. And so I know, I have felt that and I know my mother, who is 75 who uses Pinterest all the time will tell me all the things like this pin won't lead somewhere. So she cracks me up when, when we were going through that phase, she wasn't a happy woman, but she's happy now and she saves all the time.
- [14:45]
Malik Ducard
You know, I would love to share. Also you mentioned your 75 year old, my 82 year old mom, but when she was closer to 80, when I let her know, I was so happy to call her like mom, like guess what, like I'm moving to Pinterest. She, she said, oh my goodness, that's so great. That's where I get all my crochet patterns. But then Kate, I told my, my sons and my, my youngest son says, you know dad, that's where I keep all my sneaker collections. My other son said, dad, that's where I capture all my hairstyles. So it, it, it, it is so interesting like the, the, the fact that there's like so many demographics and audiences who it is, their Pinterest and the way that you said it's like not a lot of like outside influence or people coming in to pass judgment on you. It's like your personal media. I've seen it from my mom, my sons, myself, and I think that that's like one of the reasons we're resonating so much with audiences like Gen Z who don't have a lot of spaces like that out there in of the social media landscape and are finding Pinterest to, to, to be a great home for them.
- [16:09]
Kate All
Yeah. And I'm finding too for marketers or creators or even merchants, they are saying the same thing about where they put their time with their marketing because they are feeling so distracted by Instagram or by other platforms where they want to invest in Pinterest because it feels like it is worth their time. So it goes back to even what you were saying, not just for the pinner to make good use of their time, but the small business owner to make good use of their marketing time. And when I looked through the Pinterest predicts that came out in December, what I appreciated was this call to multiple generations that you could say something like Moto Boho worked for Gen Z and for Gen X or something else worked for Gen Z and for Boomers. And how unique for a platform to provide kind of the same content in the same theme, but to hit these different generations at a place that works for them to where they do feel seen, where they can create a sneaker collection. I know my daughter captures quotes all day long. I can hear the little like ping of Pinterest kind of happening in the other room. Just save, save, save. And I love, you know, and I've said it once already, but I think I'll say it again. What I have appreciated within these last couple of years is that acknowledgement by leadership to say we're gonna lean into this. We're, we're really gonna be the app that nobody gives up in a social media detox, nobody doom scrolls on and we're gonna own that. And that has been really helpful to see as somebody who teaches marketing about Pinterest.
- [17:49]
Malik Ducard
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. And you know, two, two, two things I'll, I'll, you know, say, you know about that one, you know, back on sort of the generations like Jen, I'm Gen X, you've got Gen Z, you've got what's also Millennials was so interesting is not only how they all live like well together on the platform, but how it all marinates. So Gen Z, our largest audience, our fastest growing audience, which Is, you know, pretty wild when you think about it, because typically as platforms age, the younger generations are like, now like my, my, you know, parent or my older, you know, like, not for me, my grandma. What we're seeing is as, as we get older, the younger generation actually engages at a level higher than the older generations. So one, that's interesting, but two, the content that Gen Z is creating is obviously, you know, and sharing and bringing onto the platform. The Gen Z love it, but so do Gen Gen X and Millennials to a point where they're actually consuming that content at a rate higher than content from their own generations, which I thought was interesting and telling. But the other thing that you said about kind of how Pinterest is really, really embracing positivity more and actionability more, and I think another area is honestly internal culture and how we talk about it more. I, I think that there is a much like, you know, broader comfort level with sharing. Like, hey, here's what we're working on, here's what we're thinking. And you know, we're always working to, to get communications right. And, you know, not perfect. But I remember, Kate, when, when you put a post about something that, you know, we, we had some. We were being confusing and you rightly called it out and shared with us that we were being confusing. And I think that the, the, the, the culture is such that let's like, clear it up as soon as possible. As soon as possible. The second I saw your note and like, you know, we, we kind of shared it internally. Like, like literally within probably two hours, we, we responded to clear things up and, you know, had to, you know, do more work after that. So first, thank you. But two, I think that, you know, another, another thing that we're really, really trying to do is like, let's not wait for the perfect story to share. Like, let's share things in motion so that we can get feedback from the community so that we can understand what's working for the community, what's not working for the community community, and then, like, do better by the community. So, you know, thank you very much. And it comes from, from that space.
- [21:07]
Kate All
Yeah, I appreciate that. And I appreciated that at the time as well, because what I have always been passionate about with small business owners is to say, use Pinterest as part of your marketing and if you. And don't get lost in the weeds. Right. And sometimes we get lost in the weeds of rumors and myths and all these things. And my job is to help people, like, rise above that. And I have Found when there are holes in communication, people fill the vacuum, right? And they fill it with whatever they want. And so this for me actually was a great jumping off point that eventually led to this podcast. And it was good because it said, we're going to bridge communication. And like you said, we're going to try these things in real time, we're going to test them, we're going to see how they work. And we know that this is part of how this works. As people use a platform differently, as business uses it, they use it differently. You have to figure out what's working and what's not working or what the needs of business owners are versus what the needs of the pinner is. And there has, there's that tension all the time, right? What's, what's good for the end user might not always be good for the business user. But I think again, it's just this great point of communication why we're having this podcast and just to hear where y'all are at and where you're going. And I think that's a good jump off point for me to dive into. Where is the future going? And let's start a little bit with. We see a lot of case studies that are around big brands and how they're using Pinterest and they're really successful, they're doing great. And there's these smaller business owners that I think are asking themselves that question, is, is that possible for me? And for some, they have already seen great success. So as leadership, how do you kind of ride that tension? Or maybe it's not a tension between the bigger companies that kind of already have name recognition and these smaller companies that are working to sell their products or get in front of a new audience. How do you kind of look at those two groups differently, if at all?
- [23:10]
Malik Ducard
Yeah, we do look at, you know, all, all groups on, on the platform and, and really, really, really strive to have a balanced platform and a balanced approach where everyone can be successful or find their path to success. The way we think about our audiences on Pinterest, it's threefold. So there are users, pinners, there are content suppliers, so merchants, publishers, creators, you know, so on, and then there are brands and advertisers. And I think that the unique, one of the unique things about Pinterest maybe compared to other platforms is while each one of those audiences is specific, it they're more profiles because it's a little bit less binary. You know, an advertiser can be a content supplier, a brand can be a content supplier. Pinners are curators and can be creators too. So while we internally organize sort of with those three groups in mind, we also know that folks travel through those three groups and you know, one day I might be an advertiser and maybe later on that afternoon I'm, you know, got a more, you know, creator posture. And the reason why it works on, on Pinterest is because of our user base. When, when our users come to the platform, they're really in a leaned in posture and they, they come to the platform with intent. They're not lean back and passive. They're coming to do something. So ads are content too. Ads are motivating. Content can help drive sales. It all works together. Content can also drive more upper funnel inspiration that then leads to a more lower funnel sort of purchase transaction. So it really works in a more seamless way on Pinterest. Now in terms of how we think about small businesses, there's a massive place on the platform for small businesses. We really try to make the platform a place that is understanding and educational for all of our constituencies. But small businesses, I believe are the life and blood of what, what users come for and brands in general, large brands, you know as well. But the fact that 96% of product searches on Pinterest is actually unbranded. So when you think about it, when, when a pinner is looking for a type of shirt or a pair of jeans, they, they more than not are coming with like the item in mind, but not necessarily the, the like specific brand. There's an opportunity to, for, for both content suppliers, small businesses and large businesses to help provide the guidance and the information to, to, to guide that user, that browser, that, that, that shopper. So unlike other platforms and, and even pulling on some of my past experience when I was at, at, at YouTube, I remember, you know, in the early days, you know, it was a lot more open right in, in, in. In terms of if you were a new brand, a new company, a new creator, you know, the landscape was pretty wide. You could come in and find your real estate and build. By the time I left, you know, close to 10 years, you know, actually 11, it was a crowded place and it was, was hard for newer entrants to kind of like find their space. You don't have that on, on Pinterest. You have a large audience, but you also have a system that is designed for discovery. And I think that that is a, a really, you know, good mix for small businesses. Last thing I'll say, and we'd love to keep talking about that or anything you want to talk about, Kate. But specifically on that, to be tactically helpful, we have two sites that are integrated in different ways, but appeal or service these different audiences. One is create.pinterest.com which is really focused on the content provider, supplier audience. And we update this all the time with new features and products that we're rolling out trends and different sort of paths to success and best practices that others have done and are happy to share. So create.pinterest.com then there's also business.pinterest.com which, you know, is sort of a parallel on. On the business side, how can, you know, ads be motivating and what are some of the new features and analytics to really lean into? So those are two specific resources. We also have communities that I think are really, really, you know, interesting and provide feedback for content suppliers. So when a creator or a business owner joins a community, the community will ask questions and there's folks within the community who will provide prompt answers, and then proactive information is shared. And then we're working on an educator program also that, that really works with people like you who are so knowledgeable about the platform and are interested in partnering up to really, you know, share out the latest, greatest information to communities, you know, on and around Pinterest. So there's a lot that we're doing, but hopefully those, you know, what I just described can be like some specific things, things for your audience that, that hopefully is useful as well.
- [30:05]
Kate All
Yeah, incredibly useful. And I would say there's already times where we will link to resources we find in there or especially back to the unbranded searches, helping our audience know how to leverage those keywords to really get in front of people who are searching for crochet patterns or, you know, whatever it is that they're looking for. Because if we're not leveraging that part and we're not educating ourselves around it, then we're really, we're not using it wisely. So I have to say, all of these resources just continue to keep getting better and better. And I can. Now, even as you're talking this through, there's so many things that people can go access, just dive into it. I think there's even a Pinterest business newsletter people can sign up for. So getting on that for sure, like.
- [30:53]
Malik Ducard
Some of the stats and understanding, like the dynamics of the platform, I think is really useful because I think that that helps partners or potential partners understand what the platform is. And maybe not every piece of content or piece of business might work on Pinterest, but others can. So where's the match the best? And we try to make it easy to get started on Pinterest as well. So for example, with small business owners who have content and engagement on Instagram, we've made it easy to really just kind of turn the key and have that content and information poured over. Because it's your content, you shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel over and over or, or quickly integrate with ones like Shopify Store as well. So we've done a lot to make it easier to access distribution on Pinterest and information about Pinterest to understand really where and what will resonate with the audience on the platform.
- [32:07]
Kate All
Speaking of shopping and content side by side, how does the feature look? As in, I'm assuming you're going to have to guess at this. You probably don't know yet. But the, the piece of distribution, right, like when somebody searches for a keyword or a phrase, is the hope that it will be met with articles and shopping side by side. Is it just a, you know, an evaluation of what people are saving, how you see that look going forward so people can both be served educational as well as the products?
- [32:43]
Malik Ducard
Yeah, you know, it's, it's a great question and ultimately the, the answer, the answer. And as with many things, the answer is in the user. The answer is in like the person who is navigating. Like we, we would not want to send the user in a direction that the user isn't wanting to go in. We want to be able to share and surface content that helps the user on their journey. So if they are sort of higher up in the funnel, full funnel, and really more looking for ideas and inspiration for maybe a camping trip that they're going on, but they're still deciding like, where am I going to go, what environment or temperature, then it's a little premature to start surfacing. Some specific, like, hey, how about this gear? You know, go to the site to buy. So we're trying to do a better and better job at two things. You know, one is really understanding the user and where they're at in their journey. And the great thing is because that person is coming to Pinterest with intent and with that leaned in posture, they're coming with like action or discovery or learning in mind. We've got like a really good start. And because, you know, we, we've seen what they've saved, you know, what, what, you know, they're browsing and the visual search kind of journey that they go on like a user may start with typing something in or be, you know, surface something in their feed. But oftentimes as people, I think we often don't have the words to describe the thing that we want. Pinterest is getting better and better. This is one of our, like, if we have a secret sauce, like this is like one of them. Like helping people visually articulate what they're thinking of or what they're looking for when they don't have like the text or the words to do that. So that's one part of it is really understanding the user, meeting the user where they're at and helping them move forward, but not preceding them and being steps in front of them. And then the second thing is understanding the content much, much, much better. Like, if we're doing great visual recognition, we have to recognize what that content is. We have to recognize and by we, like our systems need to understand what is this content associated with. Does this necklace go with this outfit? And because, you know, another one of our kind of sauces, his, you know, boards and curation and people, you know, pinners helping us to understand what goes with what. At scale, 1.5 billion pins are saved every week. That is, you know, huge value for, for users to be able to kind of collect and, and have boards that they come back to collaborate with and build out. And it's also helpful for our systems to really start to understand what that content is so that it can better match make with the user on their journey. So that's a bit of like the present, but also the future because we continue to invest in that. AI is really like big in all of that. Like, you can't do this without, you know, a lot of, you know, investment in machine learning and AI. And then like on that point, I'll add like a third thing that's both like the present but also the future. If I was talking to you three years ago, look, I, I think that the, the, the Pinterest narrative and the, the value that we were bringing, let's say to like advertisers was really much more awareness and upper funnel. Hey, you know what, let, let's like, you know, personalize but like send out like, you know, more awareness ads if I'm a brand, like that's how I engage or engage with PR Pinterest. And then over the years we've invested in more middle funnel and lower funnel performance because of going back to who's our user and what's their like, like actual like I would say posture coming in, leaned in and with intent on their mind. That has been a real, I would say, sea change for the company where Lower Funnel is now our fastest growing area of our business. And that actually, that performance, like actually moving to sale, moving to conversions, moving to click throughs. And Kate, like three years ago, we weren't about linking off the platform. Like when I started, I remember having a lot of conversations like in my. Because I should say I started a little over three years ago and I remember like doing like my, you know, just kind of road tour, talking to my team, talking to partners and suppliers. And like one theme I heard over and over again is like links like why, why had, you know, you been muting them? Or why, why, why, why are we not driving the, the level of traffic that we were driving before? What's happened Pinterest. And what happened was, was we turned a little bit more inward. We were kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation. We were more about time spent on platform, more like social media versus a search engine, a visual search engine, which helps you to get to where you're going, where like literally the goal becomes time off of platform. Like, how can I quickly get you to where you're going? So that really, really aligned with performance and conversion and bottom of Funnel, which really lines up with, you know, shopping and traffic and other areas as well, which I think is very aligned with brands, with small businesses, with larger businesses as, as well. So those are three things that are kind of present and future.
- [39:47]
Kate All
Yeah, 100%. I will say that that that's the experience that we have had with our ads clients as well, is that their consideration conversion campaigns are doing really good because the Pinner has spent time on the platform investigating all the options and they've saved these pins and they come back to them and they will put in these purchase orders or they're ready to take action. And that spans from hardware companies to fashion companies to weddings. Like, the amount of change. And so just to confirm what you're saying that we've seen in the last three years for our advertisers is considerable. And for those people who said, I don't think Pinterest ads are for me, we can go back and say it's different now. Like, you, you definitely want to come back. I can see what you're saying. I can empathize with where it was a couple of years ago, but it's changed. And so you need to give it another shot.
- [40:43]
Malik Ducard
We're doing a lot of reintroducing ourselves. Same, same, you know, core Pinterest. But some, some areas where we really, really evolved on. And, and this is, this is one of those areas. Like three years ago we were, we were awesome window shopping. Like, you know, you, you find what you like but then you will go to the door and you're like, like why is it like shut. We've opened the doors. So. But we didn't build the cash registers inside of Pinterest because like that's not our business. We handshake with the partner and get it to where, where it should get to. So that, that's ultimately how we think about it, how we kind of reoriented our strategy and execution and with the future.
- [41:35]
Kate All
And you brought up AI a little bit. A conversation that a lot of people have been having is you have two groups, right? You have. The group that says AI feels really suspicious. It feels overwhelming. I don't know how to use it. They tend to be older Gen X like us, where it's, it's foreign, right. And then there's those who say I want to embrace it, I want to lean into it. I also say would say there's another layer that is an ethical use of AI versus a non ethical use. So there's been this conversation specifically around Pinterest images and AI. It's not just Pinterest, right. It's, it's on all these platforms. When you guys think of the future when it comes to images, especially because Pinterest is so image based, what's the thought kind of or the conversation around where do we see AI images on the platform and what does that look like in the future?
- [42:31]
Malik Ducard
Sure, we want to do a few things and are doing a few areas we're focused on and building out. So one is really this is content AI or not AI, it's content. And our community guidelines are our trust and safety efforts are what's acceptable on the platform or not. Like that applies to all types of content. AI, not AI. Sometimes it's hard for systems to even tell the difference between the two images, text and video. So that's like baseline is that there's a kind of, you know, it's under the umbrella of content. Another thing that we're working on is really putting the user in the driver's seat of control and having the context that they want to have around that content manifest as well. So we're thinking through user tools and also labeling and doing some testing around that so that there's more clarity around. Hey, you know what? Here's content that I want or not, but also here's content that's classified as this, you know, or not. So we're keeping a really, really close eye on it. Where AI really, like, where we've really tried to be leaders and invest and focus on with AI is really, you know, in our core platform and making it better for users. So, you know, I mentioned like content understanding and discovery. Another like, you know, over the past couple of years where there's been a lot of growth is through better recommendations to use it. So when you are searching for something or your feed is giving you recommendations, over the years, those wrecks have gotten better and better and better. And that has really, really come out of AI investments and moving from things that I barely understand, like CPUs to use and how our systems like really, really crunch these like large data sets and come up with like, well, what's the best thing to help the user? Another area that I'm really excited about is inclusive AI. What I mean by that is we've been using AI and inclusive product just in general to help our pinners see themselves and see their communities much more directly in the platform. So whether it's investment in hairstyle tools so you can filter Pinterest by the type of hairstyle you're looking for, or body size and shape, like, we actually see 75% more saves on the platform when these inclusive AI tools are used. So that's another way that we've really leaned in to AI and we've seen the direct benefit to our users there.
- [46:13]
Kate All
Okay, I like that. I'm curious of where it's going to go in the next couple of years. I think there's going to be a lot of change, but lots of good things on the horizon too.
- [46:22]
Malik Ducard
I think so. And I do think that one way I think about AI just being someone who, like, I love content, you know, been around content creators, makers, you know, have been one myself. I think that AI should help to enhance content creation, not replace content creators. So just want to say that concretely and I think we're at an interesting time, like in this space where technology is moving really quickly, quickly. You know, Pinterest has intentionally not been early adopters on, you know, some of, you know, what you see out there. Like we, we've invested in AI in, in the ways I've described or in advertising. Like there's, you know, some investments and, and features that, that we made that help turn images that are ads that maybe there was a plain white background and we can help the advertiser or the brand automatically put in A background to that image that is more contextual and actually puts the product in a setting that like, show me a product that lives in white background. Like, we don't live in white background world. So I actually think that that's like more enhancement and we've actually seen like growth, like brands and, and, you know, businesses, you know, small and large have seen, you know, benefit, you know, come, come out of that.
- [48:00]
Kate All
Yeah, I've seen those in the Performance plus, and I think they're, they're genius because there are so many companies, especially product sellers, that they put their heart and their soul into creating this product. And oftentimes this marketing piece of creating great images or hiring somebody to do great images, they either can't afford it or it falls by the wayside. So this allows them to match up a really great background or a really great scene in order to position their product in a way that people will want to buy it. Because you're right, nobody lives in a white background. And I think also to your point too, one of the things I've realized as a user, as a pinner, is I will come across an article that I've clicked on via Pinterest and I will read it. And I know pretty quickly it's not a human. And that's because what I'm looking, looking for is somebody's perspective. I just don't want a list of 10 great genes for spring. I want to know why you love them. I want to know if you've tried them, especially if we get to the body type. Right. I want to know that somebody who's creating this list has a similar body type to me or has gray hair like me, and I can connect with them. So I actually think the user is going to get smarter and smarter about identifying that and saying, I don't, I don't want this, because this isn't really something that connects with me. And that's what I love about Pinterest, is that people on the other side, they get me. And so I think we'll see how that pans out.
- [49:29]
Malik Ducard
Yeah.
- [49:29]
Kate All
Okay. I have one last question for you.
- [49:31]
Malik Ducard
Yeah, please.
- [49:32]
Kate All
All right, so you have, let's say you have somebody in front of you who has a small business owner and they are looking at all of their marketing options that are out there right now. And specifically they are looking at what we would call, quote, unquote, social media channels, which I wouldn't categorize Pinterest as that, but we'll lump it in. What would you tell them that would sway them, convince them to choose Pinterest as one of their primary marketing channels.
- [49:59]
Malik Ducard
I would tell them a few things. One I would share with them and tell them that 50% over 50% of Pinterest users see Pinterest as a place to shop, a place to discover, a place to find what to buy. So that's like, you know, a little bit of the landscape. I would share that on Pinterest. It's easy, it's easy to come onto the platform, whether it's a turnkey, Instagram, you know, light up your Pinterest right away with maybe the presence you had on Instagram and bring it over or shopify. Pinterest is a partner in so many dimensions and it just kind of flows in the ecosystem and connects to the ecosystem and it makes it easier for business owners. I would share that Pinterest is evergreen and the experience is evergreen. Meaning that unlike a lot of what's out there in social media land expires right away. Or you have to be on the hamster wheel of, you know, every day, every week, every, you know, couple of days, like, post, post, post, post, post. On, on Pinterest, content lives longer season after season. What you, what you don't see on, on, on Pinterest is this like, wrap it up and then, you know, down and, and it expires. What you do see on Pinterest is this like, steady, like, growth over time. I would also share on Pinterest from a content standpoint, which connects directly to business. It's about content with personality, not only personalities with content. And what I mean is, like, Pinterest isn't a performative place. Like, you know, if you're showing how to make a tuna casserole, you don't have to have a good song and dance. It can. It better be a good walkthrough of a tuna casserole. But it's about the content, which then means that there's space on Pinterest for you to thrive on and you to build. There's room. Come into Pinterest. You can find your audience because of that openness and that focus on these types of experiences. I could go on and on, but I'm imagining I'm. I'm stuck in an elevator. I see an opportunity and that's what I would say by the time we get to the top floor.
- [52:36]
Kate All
You sold me on tuna casserole. You use that as an example. And I was like, that's the best tuna casserole.
- [52:43]
Malik Ducard
They're walking off the elevator. Yes, honestly. And this is like, like the thing and the ultimate why I would say Pinterest is the kind place and the inspirational place in, in a sea of toxicity. And, and don't we want better for our next generations? And we can prove it out that, like, you can have that and it can be good for your business, for our business, for all of our businesses together there, so. And then the elevator door closes.
- [53:18]
Kate All
I love it. It's perfect. Well, Malik, thank you so much for joining me today on a simple PID podcast.
- [53:25]
Malik Ducard
Hey, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun. I, I, I appreciate what you're doing in the community.