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- [00:11]
A
You're listening to the Simple Pen Podcast, Pinterest, for business advice that goes down smooth and easy.
- [00:19]
B
Here's your host, Kate All. Hey there, and welcome back to another episode of the Simple Pen Podcast. If you are listening in your podcast app, all of the things that we're going to be talking about today will be down below in the show notes. If you are listening and watching on YouTube, welcome. We are so happy to have you here. Make sure that you like and subscribe so you can get notified for the next video that comes here on Instagram. Today we're going to be talking about Pivots, and I feel like more and more I have been having these conversations with people about how they are pivoting their business, how the online business has changed. And we wanted to do some of these episodes kind of around the holiday time to where we don't want to give you a lot of, like, action items, things you need to do for Pinterest, but we want to give you stories of people who are doing big things and even small things in their business, but they're making changes. They're not staying where they are, but they're choosing to lean into something new. And Pivot has been a conversation I've had with so many people. And actually, my guest today, Jenny Melrose, she is somebody that I was thinking about with Pivots. We were having conversations, we were catching up. We've known each other in the industry four years, and I think her story of Pivots is one that I hope inspires you today to just think about where you're at in your business, think about 2025, think about how much our industry has changed. So this is just a conversation between two online friends who have been in this industry forever talking about Pivots. So, Jenny, welcome to the Simple Pin podcast.
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A
Thank you so much for having me, Kate. I'm really excited about this conversation because I know we could probably talk about this for our worth.
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B
Yes, we were. And actually before this, we recorded on Jenny's podcast, and we started talking about it at the beginning because it is so top of mind for so many people. I'm having Instagram conversations, voxer conversations of people who are asking those questions about, okay, our industry has changed so much. Where are we going? And I want to start with this, your story first. Um, because when I met you, you were doing something completely different. You had a blog, you were working on sponsorships and media kits and things like that. So take us back to when you started and kind of walk us through the Multiple pivots that you've had to make.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Or wanted. Had to is different than wanted to. For sure. Yeah.
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A
So I started blogging in 2010. I was a full time inner city school district teacher that had just had a baby and I kind of needed something that was my. And writing just came natural to me. It was my background. I have a creative writing major. It just made sense. So I started a blog and realized that I could monetize it relatively quickly from traffic, coming from ads as well as from sponsorships. And sponsorships for me was a very large part of my income. Because I was a lifestyle blogger, I would create content that kind of was every whim. It was my interests. This was back in a time when dinosaurs roamed the Earth in 2010 and we wrote about what we ate for lunch and then we wrote about how we went to the zoo with our kids. And that was just the way that content was. And we quickly realized, okay, we can't write it like this. We have to actually be using keywords and we need to make sure that we're creating content for people that they are looking for and build an audience through social media. And of course, social media at that time was very different. You would put a pin up and you would have thousands of people coming to your site immediately because it was all about how many followers the person had that pinned your content. And it was the same thing with Facebook and any of the other platforms at that time. So it was really about traffic and page views and we were big time page view chasers. And I quickly started to listen to a lot of the marketing I was all about, I want to make this into a business. I knew that I didn't want to be an inner city school district teacher for the rest of my life. I never got to see my kids once, especially once I had the second one. It was insane, the hours that I was working and the little amount of time I got to see them. So I said to my husband, I want to retire, I want to leave teaching, I'm done with this. And he said, okay, have your blog and come replace your teaching salary. And I did that through sponsorships at that time and was able to, largely because I was lifestyle, I could pretty much talk about almost anything and started to see the writing on the wall. So really early on, I think that I knew I needed to segment my list. I knew I needed to figure out what I was going to be known for instead of it being lifestyle. I had to pick a lane to settle into. And at that Time I was more comfortable and confident talking about food. I wanted to create recipes that were easy and simple for new moms like myself to be able to get on the table and still have time to actually enjoy my kids. So that was the direction that I kind of turned. I created my first ebook and continued down that path of trying to grow my email list and have products and services. I also though, was largely still doing sponsorships. They all were primarily coming from food. Because I was really good at pitching, I understood how to reach out, how to show that my audience was the perfect fit for the brand. And at that time, I did replace my teaching salary. In 2015, I retired from teaching. We moved our family from New York down to North Carolina and I was blogging full time. But then I started getting asked by other bloggers, how did you do it? What were you doing? So I turned back into my teaching and created a course that taught them how to pitch from A to Z. And that business goal became a lot. So I was running two businesses at that time, two kids, it was a lot. And I had hired a full team to then run the Melrose family. So as the Jenny Melrose side of my business continued to grow, I understood more and more about growing my email list, having a suite of products to be able to offer funnels and what services I could actually offer as upsells. And I started teaching more of this to other bloggers, knowing that they were not going to be able to simply rely on ads and sponsorships in the future. And I think it took 10 years to get here where most of them are finally realizing that. But I've been screening it from the rooftops probably since 2015 when I retired. 2019, I sold the Melrose family because the Jenny Melrose side was just too much time. And I've been doing it ever since. I have my podcast and work one on one clients as well, in small groups, and then also have on demand self paced courses and workshops. People can take.
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B
Okay, lots of things. It was a lot. Congrats on selling well. And I think what I think is really great is at each point you were like, okay, I'm going to lean into this. Okay, I'm going to lean into this. And I want to touch on this point of what you said in 2015, that you saw the writing on the wal that ads affiliates. At some point this was going to go away. And then earlier, before we recorded on your podcast, you said 2020. I just knew it was over. Right. Like we needed to pivot into this new place. So talk to me a little bit about when you would have these conversations with people about this potential change coming. Were there. Was anybody listening? Or did you feel like. Like I'm beating this drum and nobody hears the drum beat.
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A
There were certain industries that started to understand faster than others because certain industries weren't making as much money from ad income. So not to call out any specifics, and I love you all in all your different niches, but my food bloggers dragged their feet. And I was a food blogger. That was the. Those were the circles I ran in. Like, those were my friends. So it was really hard for me to know that. I knew that this was happening and they weren't wanting to listen. All I would talk about is, you got to grow your list. You have to grow your list. You have to offer them something and then you have to have a product or service that you're going to give behind that. And that was really hard for them because they were chasing keywords to put get traffic. And sometimes they would write about an Italian recipe and the next day it was Cuban. And it was because they were chasing keywords to get put content up there. There was no rhyme or reason. And their audience wasn't an audience. It was just page views. Because an audience can only be an audience when they know what they're coming to you for. And a lot of those food bloggers, they just didn't.
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B
And they weren't building their email list too. That was a big thing that I do remember from that time was I would say, do you have your email list? And they're like, why have my RSS feed turned on? I'm like, well, that's not what I'm talking about. Like, I'm talking about something different where you really deliver like a newsletter style or any of these types of pieces, right? And it was just a little bit of. I'm not going to focus on that. I'm not going to lean into that. So as you're seeing that and you're seeing kind of this massive pivot and we've seen it this year, right, with the introduction of ChatGPT and AI and we have Gemini and we've heard in the last two years. In fact, we just had a podcast guest on a couple weeks ago who was talking about this drastic drop in her ad revenue and working to try to figure out kind of a new model, I guess, for you. As you have watched this, how have you were serving people that were in this content creator space? How did you pivot kind of from serving different types of people as well, who were willing to listen to different methods of teaching, models of how they were going to make money. How did you make that pivot in your own business?
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A
Yes. So for me, I continue to talk to my bloggers and content creators that were going to listen and wanting to listen. Um, but I turned to my service based businesses. I knew that I had those that were out there that might be a therapist, that were in a therapy room trading time for money and knew that they could actually create a course, could create a workshop. They were seeing this and understanding this, and that's who I started to talk to because they still needed to have content creation, they needed to grow an email list in order to sell that product or service. Those were the. And the content creators that I continue to talk to were those that saw and understood and started to create a digital product or service that they could offer and knew I need an email list in order to do this. So it was definitely a little bit of a shift. It took me some time and it was. There were a lot of feelings for me with it because I felt like I was almost turning my back on some of them. But there were definitely those that stuck with me and listened and have put it into practice and are set up now to win. Are set up because they have a course, they have a membership, they have something that they can offer to their people, that they have gotten onto their list.
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B
You said you had a lot of feelings, which I resonate with that a little bit too, because our business grew a lot with content creators and we still serve them and definitely see that they're a big component to Pinterest, but also leaning into the E Commerce place. What were the fears that were coming up for you as you were pivoting into this and you were. You're having feelings not just about whether or not they were going to kind of come along with you, but what was your worry as a business owner looking to the future?
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A
I think for me, one, I felt like I was turning my back on them. Two, I often would get that, who am I to be telling them this? I had sold my site in 2019 and now I was serving people B2B. Who was I to be continuing down this path and trying to show them that this is what was going to happen and this was the writing on the wall. And then three, for me, I'm a loyalty person. I will stick with you and lay down in traffic for you. Unless you like stab me or do something to my kids, then we have an issue but because of that, I didn't want to turn my back on them and not be able to serve them and show them that this is the way that we are going. And it was also sad for me because I. We've watched a lot of businesses in the last six months come on to Facebook and say, a high has killed my business and I'm not able to. I have to sell my site or I have to just dump it and I'm done with this business. And I mean, we were watching and I'm probably going to trigger some people here, but we've seen an article go in the New York Times about how AI is stealing these people's content and these people's income. And I understand and feel for them, but at the same time, if your business model was different, AI wouldn't be doing anything to you. You'd be creating content that had a personal brand behind it. And those people would already see you as an expert, not just another one in the million that has done something with a tiny little bit different of an ingredient here or there. I think that we're going on and saying, AI is killing my business. It's not that AI is killing your business, it's your business model that has killed you.
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B
Yeah. And that is a hard pill to swallow. And how, how do you, I guess, like when somebody comes to you in that position and they says, they say, like, okay, I see it. What is kind of your first step to address where they're at with a business that is drowning? Right. Do you feel a sense of like, I can help you pivot away from this kind of, how do you approach the mess, if you will?
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A
Yes. So I actually have a pathway that I kind of walk them through, asking them questions to figure out how their foundation has been laid. And if their very first question I often will ask is, what are you offering them in order to get onto your list? And if they tell me nothing, that's where we start. That is absolutely the first place. And a lot of times when they tell me that they don't have an opt in, I also then have to take another step back and say, okay, give me your positioning statement. What is your business all about? And oftentimes they can't tell me that. They can't tell me how they're different than that other food blogger, that other DIY or home decor blogger. They can only say, I'm a food blogger that creates healthy recipes for moms that are busy. Like, it's all the same. That's not a positioning statement. That is, it's an overarching what everyone does. You have to be able to be that expert. And I know women are very uncomfortable with the word expert. So to me, an expert is someone to educate, figure out what problem you solve really well and step into that and make that part of your positioning statement and make it part of your content so that now you have a way to tie everything back to that to educate them on how you can continue to solve that problem. So I really try to look at their foundation and figure out how can we move forward with what you already have. You've already kind of established yourself. How can we clean this up and really start to get clear on that?
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- [16:32]
B
And when you're tackling these things that are very tangible step like things, how do you help work through the level of emotion with it? And I think, you know, females have sometimes more emotion than men. There's that component. But my husband's very emotional I would say like there is that emotion tied to it of this is all I know and this is how I grew and I think there was this false sense. In fact I read this on a quote the other day of it was really easy between 2019 and 2022, 23 even to where if things just came easier and it created this false sense of business ownership that it's just a plug and play model. It's just these things. So how do you work through with people when they confront that question of am I going to be a business owner? Am I going to own a small business? Because now the rubber meets the road. Right. Because if you're going to make these changes, you're committed to doing things different because you believe in yourself as a small business.
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A
Yes. And I think that that's the question, right? That's the are you going to be a business owner? Because in the past chasing pages, you're not a business owner. You're chasing something that that isn't yours. It's rented property. Whether you're getting page views from social media, from Facebook or Instagram or Pinterest or however else it's coming from, or if it's from Google, you have to really start to look at what is going to be mine. How am I going to monetize this in a way that I control it? I'm not relying on someone else on cookies and on how Apple is going to decide what can be seen and what can't be seen so that we stop being Chicken Little. The sky is falling every six months because something changes and instead we already have a business model where we see, okay, I own this, I have a product. This is how I'm growing my list, how I'm going to engage with my list, and how I'm going to continue to offer a suite of products that show that I am the expert and should always be top of mind for them when they are struggling with this whatever it is that is your niche.
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B
Yeah. And how do you see your business? Like you as a small business owner who have made a pivot, made these changes. What do you see for yourself in the next couple of years? 25, 26, 27, which even that feels like a very big question to ask anybody who's working online because of how much we've seen shift in the last three. There's a propensity sometimes to not want to dream into the future because it feels so unsteady. But I'm curious how you're viewing that. Are you taking it year by year? Are you looking at the next couple years?
- [19:13]
A
I still will set 90 day goals for sure so that I know where I am ideally looking to go. I have had things that have what I want to do and how I want to see my business continue to grow. Kind of sitting on the sidelines because 2020 I had a conference that I was hosting in person in April of 2020 in Charlotte and two weeks prior, yes, two weeks prior I had to cancel and I quickly pivoted and was probably the first virtual summit ever done because it was an in person conference that had to get totally shifted and changed. We had to figure out ways to make our sponsors happy, how to get out of my contract from the hotel because they were trying to still hold me responsible for 50 different rooms. Because of that, I was always very nervous to ever again do in person. I do a virtual summit twice a year. I love doing virtual summits because I love to teach, I love to educate, but for myself, I miss that in person that you get from hugging someone and having intimate conversations about your business and getting to know them beyond just business, but also family. Because a lot of us may feel like family. I mean, there are friends that I have that they go through a scare with breast cancer. And I feel like they're my people, whether I've met them in person or not. So because of that, I have wanted always to get back in person. I'm actually hosting my first retreat in November. We're recording this in October. Yes. My people were like, you've been talking about this, you've been talking about it, let's do it. So that is the trajectory where I'm looking to go is to do more in person retreats because we need to come back together and have a plan. And I think because we have got away from that, we weren't being held accountable anymore. Yes. You could do a virtual summit and it was like you're drinking from a fire hose. Right. All this information, all these different speakers. But when you're in person, you're held accountable to do it and take steps to actually make sure that you have goals set. And that's what I want my retreat to be is that 90 day goal setting process so that you are ready to hit the ground running with wherever, whenever you come to the retreat, so that you have a playbook that you are working from.
- [21:31]
B
Yes. I love that. And I think especially with retreats or in person events, what I always say is you get so much impact from things that happen in the margins. It's a side conversation. It's not necessarily even a session that you go to or it's a passing conversation or it's somebody telling their story. These are the things we need as business owners. Owners. We don't need this whole cascading list of things to do. We need a plan and we need encouragement and we need other people telling their stories because that's where we have aha. Moments that help us grow as business owners. So I love that you're leaning into that. And I think it is so needed to gather together. And it. I am less likely, I would say, like, I definitely teach at conferences still. I'm less likely to choose to go to some. I'm more likely to choose to go to a retreat or a small group event because I know what I'm gonna get is what you're talking about, like this connection and this depth. Right?
- [22:31]
A
Yes, agreed. It's. It just, I mean even going to, I think the first conference I ever Went to was blog her in New York City in 2011 or 12 and I remember being like mind blown to what was actually available and how many bloggers were out there and what I could would be capable of. But also I think it took me a week to recover because there were so many people and it was so much information. Whereas I just, I do better in smaller intimate groups. It just works better for my personality. And I think I'm able to really help people and get those step by steps where it's not. The biggest thing that I have watched over the years is we often talk about business as if it's one size fits all. And every single business is different. You have business owners with different personalities that can handle different things, that can go on and do a podcast or that can get on YouTube or all they want to do is write. And we have to be able to meet those business owners where they are. And that because of my teacher background, I think I do that really well. That's one of the things that I do excel at is I can differentiate my instruction for pretty much anyone out there.
- [23:48]
B
Yeah, I love that. Once a teacher, always a teacher, right? I feel like it never, it never leaves. Okay, so the last thing I would ask you is for someone listening that they are in this place of they have to consider a pivot. They, they know they're on this precipice of change, but they are either feeling really nervous or they don't have awareness of the fact that something is isn't working. What would you say to them in this place of confusion?
- [24:19]
A
I would tell them to look at the numbers and I know they are going to hate that because a lot of women are not numbers people. But. And I'm not just talking about page views numbers, I'm talking about look at your emails, what are people opening, what are they clicking on? Look at your social media, what are they engaging with, what are they saving on Pinterest? Look at other people's content that's in the same niche. What are they starting to do? What are you seeing them doing? I think when you can actually use those numbers to your advantage and understand what people are already starting to associate you with as that expert, that's what you're going to step into. And then the next place I would say, and this may make them feel a little bit more comfortable, ask your friends and family, what am I good at? What do you continually, when you think of me, what do you think of? And you will be surprised sometimes at what they will tell you that you are really, really good at that. They probably are coming to you and having conversations with you at game night or when you're out for a drink of wine. What are they asking you about? That's your expertise. That's your zone of genius. You need to step into that and start to really hone in on the content that you have and make it about that. There is a way to shift, even if your traffic is going to something about creating memory boxes, like shift into what you are an expert in. Just because something went viral 10 years ago doesn't mean that you have to stay in that lane, go with what you are the expert in and create the content around that 100%.
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B
Such great advice. And you are right. It's hard to look at the numbers. And I have faced that a couple times in my business over the last three years where it's sometimes much easier to bury your head in the sand and not know the numbers. And I have a phrase that I now say, Kate, face the numbers. They're just numbers. But it's really important that you face them. It's really important that you look at them. And that has called me back to a ground, a grounding place. Because sometimes I can think it's way worse than it is. And then I go in and I'm like, oh, it's not that bad. Or I might think, like, it's totally fine. And then I go in and I'm like, it's really bad. Like, you gotta make decisions from that place of data. Which is hard because we're so used to making it on gut and emotion and it being easy. I think that's really important, is that we were able to get away with that before.
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A
Yes, A hundred percent, yes. And I think that I was fortunate in that I had sold my site prior to it getting really easier during that whole Covid place of them searching for recipes. So I didn't have that. I had the very much. My people were busy. My people were freaking out because they were content creators and all of a sudden they didn't. They were dealing with their kids being home and having to create all this content and they were just trying to survive rather than trying to come up with a business plan to how to strategically grow it.
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B
Yeah, exactly. It was a lot. There's still a lot to unpack from those years for sure. Jenny, thank you for sharing your story with us. Thank you for sharing what you're leaning into in the future and how you're serving small business owners right now. Where can people go to connect with you.
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A
Yes. So you can go right into your podcasting app, search influencer entrepreneurs, or just search my name, Jenny Melrose. And my podcast will come up. There are over 400 episodes on it. I've been podcasting for over eight years now at this. It's just crazy to say. And then also go to jennymollrose.com and you will find right on the front page right there. As soon as you get to there, it'll have a strategic growth plan for you to download that's really going to walk you through these foundational steps that you need to have in place in order to survive and thrive moving forward.
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B
I love that. Thank you for providing that service for people and for those that are listening or watching the dog at the end, I love it. Listening or watching? Make sure that you go check out Jenny's podcast. It's so great. And just go follow along with what she's doing. So, Jenny, thank you so much for joining us today and we'll catch up with you later. All right, bye.