A (4:08)

It is fun to see. And I think even also what excites me is that a lot of these companies had been relying solely on Meta or on Google. And when they took the leap to try Pinterest and I would say for a lot of people, they approach Pinterest ads a little bit like, oh, I

B (4:26)

think it's going to work.

A (4:27)

I kind of want to try it. I don't know because not a lot of people are talking about it. It's. You hear all the time about Meta. In fact, I went to a conference just recently and it was like all about paid ads. And when they say that they're really only bucketing Meta and Google together. But there are these people who have been doing that for so long that hop over to Pinterest and they think, oh my gosh, is this going to work? And then it works. And to our clients, they're like, I'm going to stick with this. I'm not turning them on and turning them off. Which I think is actually something that I want to address. Because people in their nervousness, they approach Pinterest ads almost assuming they're not going to work. And so talk to me about like how much time is needed because or actually what you think people miss when they give up too soon, how soon do they give up or their nervousness talk a little bit about what prevents them from really seeing that long term success.

B (5:28)

Well, to your point first about

A (5:32)

you

B (5:32)

know, people who typically start on Meta or Google and then kind of go from there. Honestly this may be an unpopular opinion but I will say my clients who have come to me after running ads on Google and Meta, they when we know that their product is proven through ads and that people resonate really well with their ads on Google and Meta, we have the most major success with them on Pinterest. Okay. So if ever a client comes to me and says we're getting such and such on Google and such and such roas through Meta, I can almost guarantee that we will be getting really amazing results for them on Pinterest. Now if, if we have a brand or a business that comes to us and they want to try Pinterest first, we have a lot of that because there are people who don't like Meta or Google for different reasons and Pinterest feels safe to them because of the environment. That can be a little bit harder. And that goes to your time period question a little bit there and sort of the budget as well. But I will say like if you do have amazing results on Google or Meta, I, I highly recommend if you, if you haven't tried it, try Pinterest. It's almost fail proof if we already know that things are working on the other platforms. Okay, so there's that. But I will say the biggest thing is we typically tell people you need to give it about three to four months running ads. And I used to have this sort of like oh, minimum of $50 a day. But I don't do that anymore because this has to be an investment. You have to be willing to invest on Pinterest. And I'm telling you right now, like conservatively my goal is by month three we are for sure getting a return on ad spend and we're starting to scale. So by month, you know, 6 we should be at a 32 to 4x. But what's interesting is people cannot seem to get over that like three, four week mark. It's almost like the panic sets in and they're going, I'm not seeing the results. And that's even after a four full phone call with them where there's like so much education on My end on how Pinterest works. Pinterest is search and discovery. So it's really similar to Google but we have all that that visual inspiration that happens and people use. I always tell people this, I don't know if I've even said this to you. Okay, but like when you get the Pinterest app, at least on I iPhones, it automatically puts it into the productivity folder. That is something that I always thought was weird. When I, whenever I downloaded it, whenever I got my new phone, it put it in productivity and I'm like, that's weird. It did not put it in social media. And there is a reason for that. And so people use Pinterest as a plan planning tool. Think about weddings, think about big events, moves, just whatever, remodels. There's so many different things that people create boards for and use Pinterest for that inspiration. But you have to remember people are creating those boards months, maybe even years before the event is taking place. So it is so important to listen to Pinterest when they say we are flipping full funnel opportunity. We hit people at the top with that high inspiration content. We connect with them in the middle when they really are looking for brands to buy from and then we hit them at the bottom with those sort of retargeting bottom funnel campaigns. And if you can do all of those things consistently over a period of time, you will have great success on Pinterest. I have a client right now who has been with us over a year. Not quite two years, but over a year. We are consistently over a 20x now.

A (10:20)

Again, results not typical. Think of like the weight loss head.

B (10:25)

It's not typical, right? It's not typical, but it's also not super unusual. Like I have a few clients right now who are really consistently over like a 10x. Right. And so I think what we really have to remember is investing your time and money doesn't have to be a whole lot. But I would say if you're going to and if you're an E commerce brand and you want to invest in Pinterest, I would, I would plan spending 100 to $200 a day on ads. That's kind of the going starting budget for the majority of the clients that we get. And I would say we mostly get medium sized E commerce businesses in the door for us, but upwards of, I think maybe a couple of my clients are spending, oh, you know, 500 a day, 5, 6, 700 a day. Especially in peak periods, they, they increase that. So yeah, I think the biggest thing is knowing that this is a long term investment, that if you invest long term you will get great results. And it's so exciting because I remember a client, this particular client coming to us, not loving. I had a discovery call with them and they're like, we want to try it, but I don't know. And we sent a proposal and they said we're going to go someone else. And I said I'm curious who, where are you going? You know. And they said, well, our Google or Meta agency is willing to take us on for Pinterest as well. And I think I told you, I remember being disappointed because I was really excited about this client. I think I told you they will be back, guaranteed. Mark my word, they will be back. And within a month they came back and they said we really need someone who is Pinterest specific. And I it's one of those times where, you know, I want to go told you so. But yes, it really does take a unique understanding of Pinterest to get the results as well. So, you know, whether that be the time that you spend on Pinterest or the education that you get or the management that you get, it's just kind of understanding how people use Pinterest which is different than any other platform. So.

A (13:09)

Absolutely. And I think even to your point of talking about like if you have proven your ads on meta or on Google, one really important thing to remember and even as I saw, saw people talking about their meta ads and people are spending millions on meta ads and it feels interesting when they come to us and they're like, oh, I don't know if I can spend a hundred dollars a day. And you're like, really? You're spending so much over here and you know, you have a proven product where we can take and we can overlay that over here and we can get good results with it. So I think that is probably the number one thing that people, if they're listening and they are already running meta and Google Ads. Like I'm thinking of a friend in particular who sells a really great physical product for home. She does a lot of meta ads. She does great. She could easily hop over to Pinterest and giving herself the three months to really get into the groove, figure out what ads are best time it really with that budget, I think she could have great success and it could run a totally different kind of like background ad that helps support and get different customers than she would be getting on Meta or on Google. So really marrying them together instead of seeing them at odds, seeing Them as complementary, I think is key.

B (14:28)

Well, a thousand percent. And, and it's kind of like that, that visual of like the sandwich. Right. It's like having the different layers. Um, my fifth grader is doing a book report right now and it's called a hamburger book report because it's different layers that create one solid story. Right. It's the same thing. If you have the different layers, you have meta Google, Pinterest, your success will be wild. It can be. And I think also you mentioned something that was interesting about the budget. Spending such and such over in one area and not Pinterest. I, I love my client. I, you know, I, my clients are my absolute favorite. And I, I feel like we've been really lucky to have such a variety, but also really amazing clients. But I have one client right now. If she's listening, she'll know who she is. I, I absolutely adore her. But she runs the marketing department for this particular business and she says, our budget is $200. I cannot go over that for Pinterest at all. That's our budget. We're literally getting right now a 34x for them.

A (15:49)

And I'm like, can you please give me $50 more?

B (15:52)

Can we increase the, can we steal? Can we please like, I don't know, like, how many more results or sales do I need to get or people. And it's not her, it's the, the owners of the business or who, whoever's making those, those bigger decisions. It's incredible how people can even see these types of results and go, well, I'm still nervous. It's like, what?

A (16:18)

Yeah, I think it is that whole. There's a lot of overcoming when it comes to Pinterest and we've seen that over the years when it comes to both organic and paid ads. Organic has a little bit more buy in, but ads really has to have this different layer of selling to people in order to get buy in. It's almost like they're white knuckling and we're telling people these are really great. They can work really well, especially if you sell a physical product, especially if you are in the market with the B2C space. If you are really marketing to consumers, there's so many ways that you could leverage them. And I think that's a big takeaway from this episode. Those that are listening is, I want you to take away that. Like, there's so much great possibility with Pinterest ads now. There's a lot of new features that it's even worth going in and looking at the dashboard, you and I both know we've heard from people that they've said over the years, I remember Pinterest before and the ads dashboard was terrible. It didn't give me a lot of information and it's gotten so much better. Also, I'll say this as well. I have a good friend who does meta ads and Google Ads. She loves it and she described it one time and I think I've said it before on this podcast, but she said metagoogle ads are like New York time. They fly faster than the speed of light. They. You can make quick decisions, you can make quick adjustments. Pinterest ads are like Hawaii time. We're gonna take our time, we're gonna like, you know, go, we're gonna set it up and then we're gonna go surfing for a few hours. They're gonna come back and she's like, that is a huge whiplash for people who are used to New York time and they get to Hawaii time and they don't know how to settle in. And I think one of the things that we've discovered for our clients is after that three month mark, they're used to Hawaii and they're like, okay, I think I wanna stay here. This is really nice because I am getting return on my investment without this franticness. And that is why it's really important to go in eyes wide open, knowing you're going to Hawaii. It's great here.

B (18:23)

Yeah. And I, well, and not only that, but it's like the difference. I have a friend who recently went to Disney World and they got a tour guide. They hired like a person to take them around, carry their coats, do all the, get them water, do all the things. And it's the same thing. It's like when you hire somebody to do it for you, you are relieving so much of the stress of the ads and like the anxiety of waiting for results because you know that somebody is taking care of it and that you don't need to know what's going on every day or even every week.

A (19:10)

Totally. You know, so nice. Isn't that a great analogy? She tells me that and she's like, I just need to change my mindset. And I think actually one of the things we touched on real briefly before we started that I think goes along with mindset is the types of campaigns like you people will come in there. Like, we sell a product, run a product campaign, run a shopping campaign, get as many buyers as possible. But you are telling me there's these Traffic campaigns that are so essential for really understanding who the buyer is and really understanding targeting. So talk a little bit about that with different types of campaigns that you've seen really work well when you marry them together.

B (19:51)

Yeah, I mean, my most successful clients have the budget and the products also to be able to run about five or six campaigns at one time. So that's, that's four to six, I would say. Because when we talk about how Pinterest works, how people use Pinterest, right. So I open up my app. Let's say I am going to a wedding, but I'm the bridesmaid, so maybe it's my sister getting married. I start a board, but I have some responsibilities. Right. But we're few future thinking here. So the wedding's not for eight months, let's say, okay, so I start my board. I have to pick my dress, I have to figure out her bridal shower. I have to do these things. I need a gift. I need all of these things. I need, you know, to help with decorations. So when I create this board, I'm. I'm first just looking for inspiration. I'm looking for pictures. I want pretty things, right. I don't want to see a whole lot of text. I don't want to see a whole lot of information yet. This is high level. I want to get a feel for what this is going to look like. And so I start searching for inspiration. And so at that very top of funnel, I love to use either consideration sometimes awareness campaigns. And I love doing it in a manual way. And what I mean by that is, and of course this is going to be hard for some people because I am very old school when it comes to Pinterest ads. But when you set up a manual campaign, especially if you're just getting going, it allows you to pick and choose targeting, like down to zip code, down to gender, down to all these things. Right. Which I love because you get really good data moving forward and you get this information that helps you to make really great decisions for future campaigns once you start layering. Now when we have people who are using boards for planning, the next thing they do is typically go, okay, now I know what the vision is going to be. Now I need to start deciding what I'm going to buy. And so this is what we kind of call the consideration, sort of a layer of the funnel on Pinterest. And that's really great for starting to show your brand. So now we want to make sure logos are on your ads. We want to make sure that we are giving them the good information to make those really good decisions on who they're going to buy from. And so, for example, my, one of my clients right now, they are in the wedding space and they do different things like buy five groomsmen suits, get one free or whatever. They do these offers that really entice buyers. So then we start giving them those ads on, on the middle of the funnel. And then once it's time to buy and to make those big decisions, they've already engaged with you multiple times. And so it is so important to be there in every space of that person's journey. And we're talking how many people are on Pinterest?

A (23:24)

Yeah. 690 million.

B (23:26)

Yeah. And so there are so many people out there who are using this as a planning tool. And so I think that's important. If you have any type of pro, if you're a product seller and you have any type of product that fits into big moments in people's lives, it fits into any sort of planning, any sort of those high interest searches on Pinterest, which obviously we know those, a lot of those are clothing, outfits, beauty, home decor, things like that. Those are going to be huge on Pinterest. And so, so this whole sort of journey is set out on Pinterest through ads. And I think that's what makes it so unique but also so important to continue using Pinterest. If you don't keep going, you are going to miss so many opportunities of people that you've touched over here in the very beginning. If you stop your ads, if you give up, if you're not touching them when they need you the most, which is at the purchase levels.

A (24:36)

Well, and I, can, I, can I jump in here? Because I think we've had this, this experience before with clients who only look at these like strategic buying moments. Right. Let's say it's before Christmas and they'll go, I want to run my ad August, November or August into mid December. And we're like, actually, you want to start running your ad even way back in the spring and maybe even running all the time. So, so that you are there at those moments or maybe people are saving your content to their board and it feels like we're turning off this momentum. So I would say in 2026, once you get your Pinterest ad going, don't turn it off, let it run. And I've heard that from other people who have said, you know, maybe I dropped my budget during a lower time, but I'm still feeding the Machine kind of everything that it needs. And to your point as well put product sellers. I think product sellers in 2026, the place to be for ads is on Pinterest. Right. Like I think we've seen it a lot on Instagram. We've obviously seen it on Meta too as well. Google. I don't even like the product searching on Google. Yeah, to be honest, like it doesn't. So I think there is some interesting opportunity and excitement that I know both you and I feel about product sellers and ads on Pinterest that are uni unique opportunity in this time, I think especially as we are growing so much with AI and all these integrations which I'm going to jump to actually the AI, we'll call it the AI ad which is Performance plus within the ads dashboard on Pinterest. At the conference I was at, they were talking about the AI one on Meta and people feeling like it gave them opportunity to do ads when like it removed the barrier. So I want you to talk about Performance plus with traditional campaigns. Do people go all in on them? Do they use both? What's your thoughts?

B (26:38)

Well, in my mind we sort of have three different options right now. So we have the old school manual campaigns. That's what we all learned on and you know, I think there's something about them that I still use, I still love. Like I said, the return that we get from all that information is so good, it's like it's gold. But I think that using all of the different options is really smart. So one option is in the campaign setup. You can actually create a campaign that's they called simplified. A simplified campaign is not Performance plus, but what you can do is you can actually take these sort of targeting details like demographics and things like that and they simplify it for you. So they kind of set it up just as open. So it's kind of like all genders, all ages, all everything. And you're really just picking your, your interest keywords and you're kind of letting them sort of guide you in a way. So there's that there's manual, there's simplified, um, and then there's a Performance Plus. I am a huge fan of all of them used in combination with each other. Because when you are running manual campaigns you can really pick like you can say I am targeting 18 to 24 female who lives in this zip code. I mean you can get really specific, right? You can't do that with Performance plus. Performance plus allows you to give Pinterest the wheel and say here are my ads that I created. So you have the ads, the title, the description, that is all we're giving them. And they use that information to, and the, the metadata behind that to go ahead and try to find people who are most likely to take ad action on whatever the optimization is. Performance plus does tend to give you quicker, arguably better results if, if you are set up properly. What I mean by that is you have good tag health, you have your API like all of that stuff is set up in the back end, right? If you are set up well, performance plus campaigns can be quicker and they can be more successful, but manual. But you don't get any information from performance plus campaigns. Like the most minimal data. Like you can barely even report on performance plus campaigns because you don't know who's interacting. You don't know what's working. You don't, all you know is what the ads are telling you, which is I know I get a good click through rate. I know people are saving, I know my ads, my particular ads are working or not, but I don't know who the people are, I don't know who this audience is. I don't know what's going on. So I don't love that. But of course I love the results. So I like to use a combination. In fact, I wanted to, I, I pulled up one of my clients because I wanted to just give you an idea. This particular client of mine, past 30 days, we're getting a 34x on $200 ad spend per day. I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 campaigns currently running. One thing I want to mention that we did talk about a little bit was the variety of campaigns. When you have a variety of products. Products is so important because we are targeting, let's just say for example, we're targeting specific wedding sort of thing. Wedding is their big category. But also the products they sell can be used outside of weddings. They can be used for prom, they can be used for business, they can be used for different things, holidays. So why this is important is because right now I have five campaigns running. Out of the five, two of them are performance plus, three of them are manual. Okay. My performance plus campaigns are getting the highest roas but the other ones are pretty right under that. Like they're, they're not far from, from that. But I have one campaign, it is a performance plus catalog sales campaign. It has a 100x that's great.

A (31:59)

And does some of that like I'm thinking you watching this and going it has a 100x but I can't see a lot. Does that feel frustrating to you because you're like, I can't get more of the data and like I can't see anything.

B (32:11)

It's like, it's like, who, who are these wonderful people?

A (32:15)

Like, Right, right.

B (32:17)

Because. Because if we knew that information we could then layer in. And that's why. So for example, the, the highest roas on a non performance plus campaign right now is a 40x. So that's still good. It's still.

A (32:35)

That's amazing. People would settle for like four.

B (32:39)

And that's the Evergreen campaign where we have some seasonal campaigns in there for different things like prom. Right. And like summer weddings. But then we have the evergreen which is just products by colors or color categories because that's big for weddings. Right? Like color. And so that is what is evergreen for us. And that's what on a manual campaign we're getting a 40x right now. It's pretty crazy. So what I will say about all of that is what's good about having three manual campaigns, two performance plus campaigns is that I'm still getting data from these campaigns that are working really well. But I'm also allowing Pinterest to take these ads and just run with it and find people who I may not ever have known to target with these other ones. So it's so important to me that we use a combination. I was, I had a call with a client yesterday which is a little bit of a different type of. They are not E commerce. They, they provide a service. It's a little bit different than I've ever done before, but I'm really loving it because they fully understand what they're getting into. They know that you. It's going to take time. They also know that their particular offer revolves around one sort of life event. And it is incredible when you understand Pinterest and you know what you have to offer and you know how those two things can be combined. It's incredible how patient people can be and how you can see results, you know, and a pretty reasonable amount of time when you're marrying something that works well on Pinterest with what Pinterest has to offer you.

A (34:34)

Yes, totally.

B (34:37)

Yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great combo.

A (34:39)

Well, and can I say this too because I think this is always a question we get from people is can you target men on Pinterest? And I think some of our clients that proves that out that there is space to target the male demographic on Pinterest and get great results with ads. So anybody listening? If you are targeting men, we've had people come to us who are like men's watches or men's jewelry and they're questioning like, man, do I need to come over here? And I would say like Blue Ocean, right? There's not a lot of other advertisers targeting men because of that same, I guess, misconception that men aren't using Pinterest. There's no way that I can target that demographic.

B (35:25)

Men are funny for very so many reasons. Men, men are a mystery to me on Pinterest and elsewhere. But I will say that what is incredible about the male demographic on Pinterest or even products like you said that you think are male dominant. Don't forget what Pinterest is. It's a shopping platform for search and discovery. So if you think that you only want to target men for a particular product because it's a male product, you are completely missing the biggest audience, which is women or other people buying those items as gifts for their partner or for whoever that. I actually have a client right now who, who sells a product that's primarily men. It's primarily men who visit their website. But on Pinterest, I did what they asked. I started mail only. So like you said, it's definitely predominantly male product. But I sat there, it was like crickets. And I was dying because I, I, I knew it was against my better judgment to only to run a male only campaign. But I did. Crickets. Crickets. Crickets. And then honestly, I didn't even tell the client. I just added in female because I was like, I need to see if my gut is right. And sure enough, like we, in the first couple days, it was like three checkouts came in and I was like, these are people who are buying gifts for the people in their lives. And so we missed that. But then the other funny male story I have on Pinterest is a client of ours who sold gift baskets. And they were high quality, like higher end gift baskets. And the, the female demographic was, was obviously like really outranking male in most cases. So again, we shut off mail and then we decided that we needed to broaden our audience. So after we had been running female only for a while, we threw male in there. And much to our surprise, where the females were doing about a 3x on this product, which was good at the time, male, the male demographic was giving us a 20x. And I was like, what is happening here? Not only could you see that, and it's not even something that I would ever have thought like a male would purchase. It's like, they're not that thoughtful. I don't think to like, buy these gift baskets for people, but not on it. I'm not, I'm not.

A (38:47)

Yeah, yeah. No generalities, but yes.

B (38:50)

But what's interesting is as you dig deeper to what interests these males are coming from, it was like top performing interest from a male purchase was men's shoes. And I'm like, what? Who? So who are these people? So then it's like digging into that. We were talking about it earlier on the front end of things, and it's interesting because we're going, okay, a male who has a Pinterest account whose one of their top interests are men's shoes. So then we're like, who are these people? So then we start to think, okay, these could be like, heads of like, HR departments, people who have to buy employee gifts, people who, you know, and we start to kind of put the pieces together, like, who is this person whose interest is male shoes, like, whatever, sports, all this stuff. And then it's putting together the pieces like, who. Who is this person? And we continued to run that male category for a long time and it did really well for that holiday season. And then it died down a little bit once we got to our evergreen pieces. And now it's. It's a pretty impressive thing to know that in. In some things that aren't typically male categories will turn on about August or September and then. And then we'll maybe turn back off in January or February. But you have the ability to do that when you do manual campaigns, which is why I love them still. So right.

A (40:38)

Right now, that's a lot. We've given people a lot to think about. And I hope, just as I have had when you and I have conversations, these excitement points where I see opportunity. And I think right now in the online landscape, there's things moving so quickly. Things are shifting all the time. So when you see a door crack or an opportunity, take it. And so I wanted you to talk a little bit. We have two ways that we can serve people here at Simplepen Media when it comes to ads, and that is through, obviously managing and running campaigns, but also consulting with people that you want to walk alongside them. So talk a little bit about both of those offerings that we have and how you've just been supporting people through consulting and supporting them through managing.

B (41:28)

Yeah, so we have a full service management for managing ads on Pinterest, and that is hands off. Basically. We do everything for you. And that is really great for people who don't have time. So I think that's the biggest thing is when you don't have time, you don't have the time to worry or manage or do any of that stuff. It's a great opportunity, it's a great service. So we do the full service ads management and then we do consulting. I, I really love consulting. Consulting is great for people who have maybe in house marketing or advertising teams that really want to learn Pinterest so that they can do it on their own. I love consulting for people who maybe don't have the budget to hire someone long term, but they have the time and the ability to learn. And so I can kind of walk through that with them and, and help them set up campaigns and then sort of optimize them with them and show them what I look at when I do that. And so those are the two options. We have consulting, we have management, and a lot of times we start with one and go to the other. So I'm currently working with a business who is building out their marketing team in house and they want us to start running ads for them because they have no idea what they're doing, but they want to learn as we go through that management process for the three months and then the goal is to get them through that to a place where they can kind of take the ads on like for their own, and then we can kind of consult through that process with them. And I would say if you aren't sure, just hop on a call with me. Like, we will talk through the best options for you and we will get you a good fit.

A (43:33)

So yeah, for sure. And don't be nervous about the call. Like, I know some people are like, I don't want to book a call. It's going to take time. But honestly, in 30 minutes, Aaron can give you a really good assessment as to whether or not ads are going to be a good fit for you or not. And I think that's one thing that we've been pretty transparent about over the years is that if you're not a good fit for ads, we will tell you, we will say this isn't going to be a good fit. And one other element of that too is we're very cognizant of ads are not going to fix a broken funnel. Like, you can't just put money behind something and hope for more sales. But there's times when you might need to be building that kind of like the current consulting client that you're working with where they're building their funnel, they're building their system to be optimized to where then when their Pinterest ads do get really, really good now they are making more money. And that's another thing too, is that if you don't have any of that stuff set up, we're not going to take on working with you because we're not interested in wasting your money. We want to get strategic results for you. So if we need. You know, Aaron, I know you've been transparent about this in the past. Going back to people and saying your pages aren't set up yet. And it, it's really, it's not worth it for you to do it because it will create more problems for you than solutions. And I, I think we've even had that here running ads for simple pin. Right? Like there's sometimes we run ads and they're like, this is not working. And a little bit of that is me, right? Where I will just be like, okay, let's run ads. We can do this. And then it's putting the cart before the horse and we come back and we go, okay, maybe we needed to rethink that strategy a little bit more.

B (45:11)

Well, and, and we've had, yeah, we've had times where we've run different because we not only have services but we have products and we have lead offers and, and things like that. So there's been times where we wanna run ads to sell our products. But really if we look, it's our lead offers that are so golden through ads on Pinterest. And I think that's a really good point too is who, who, who are ads good for? Right. And I think, I think sometimes we can be excited to try to get results for people. In the past especially, there's been so many opportunities on Pinterest for so many different types of brands and businesses. Currently though, I would say any E commerce who has a proven product and especially falls under any of those big interest categories on Pinterest, like I mentioned before, beauty, home decor, you know, clothing, any of those things, you should be running ads on Pinterest. You should be at least trying or talking to someone about it. And I would say people aren't going to love this, but I would say sometimes lead offers, digital products aren't doing as well anymore as they have in the past. I will say we can, we are still getting pretty strong lead results though for free offers, whether that be digital or, you know, digital products don't seem to be as strong anymore.

A (46:55)

Yeah.

B (46:55)

Which makes me sad because they did well in the past, but I would say physical products are definitely outperforming at this point.

A (47:06)

And I think there's an important distinction too, because I think digital offers that are targeted B to C probably will still do good thinking of, you know, things like spreadsheets or meal plans or things like that. They're, they're still tough. I'm not going to say they're the same as a physical product, but when it comes to digital products for B2B, where you're targeting business owners, that is a little bit tougher. That's where you get into your meta ad or even LinkedIn ads because, you know, that's where business owners are. I would imagine most business owners are not spending their day on Pinterest scrolling around, right? They might, they could come in contact with some of your ads, but it's not their first place. So just be thinking that through as well. Aaron, thank you so much for sharing all of this. I hope that people are walking away a little bit more excited about Pinterest ads. I know I am and I'm excited to share more of our results. So a common just so people who are listening. I am on LinkedIn we have simple pin media but I most commonly post as myself Kate all and I'll post some things like Erin shares with me these results and I post them on LinkedIn and there's a lot of conversation happening over there. So if that's some place where you want to engage deeper on this, you can find me on LinkedIn and I will put the link down below in the description. So Aaron, thanks to much again. I really appreciate your time.

B (48:30)

Thank you.